Scottish Independence

[Grumpy106]

So Alex Salmond says that an independent Scotland will have its own Armed Forces. Any of our Scottish cousins in the RAF, Navy or Army fancy moving back north to help Salmond defend his kingdom.........? Might be able to keep Leuchars and Kinloss open, not sure what they'll base there though? :confused:

[NorthSouth]

The SNP has also said:

1) the Scottish army will restore all the disbanded infantry regiment titles
2) Scotland won't be part of NATO

Meanwhile Salmond and John Swinney pleaded with Cameron to have more UK forces based in Scotland, with the result that Faslane is expanding and the number of army personnel will be doubling. I've heard two rationales for this:

1) Cameron was delighted to cement more UK units in Scotland because that would make it much harder (not least economically) for Salmond to achieve independence and chuck out all the UK troops

or, if you prefer:

2) Salmond wanted a nice cheap way of getting extra public spending in Scotland which doesn't cost Holyrood a penny, but which supports the local economy in the Clyde/Moray/Fife etc; and which also gives him a resident force which can be used as a basis for bargaining with the Westminster government after independence, in terms of (a) which units transfer to Scottish control and (b) which units the UK government wants to retain in Scotland, and at what price paid to the Scottish exchequer.

On Salmond's past record I would expect to see much weaseling over the next few years out of (a) the SNP's anti-NATO stance and (b) the commitment to get Trident and the SSNs out of Faslane. All the UK government has to do is name its price.

NS

[Capetonian]

I wish I understood what this 'independence' is about. I also wonder if some of the people who talk about it know what it is and what they want. Is it full independence, which means they would have to opt out of the EU as well? It seems to me a very nebulous and ill-defined concept.

Within the UK, Scotland already has its own Assembly (Parliament?) and some degree of autonomy as do Wales to a lesser extent and Northern Ireland. We keep hearing about Catalunya, Quebec, the Basque country, just to name a few wanting 'Independence'.

I lived in a country which unilaterally declared independence from the British Crown because it was not prepared to submit to rule from Westminster, 5000 miles away. We could have survived as we had rich resources and a proper government, but political and military interference from the rest of the world brought down the regime.

Will Scotland be allowed to declare that sort of independence, or do they just want to have passports that say 'Scotland' on the front instead of 'United Kingdom'. How far does 'independence' go?

[SASless]

Grumpy,

There's naught left to based anywhere hardly....so what would be the difference?

[Just This Once...]

I guess I must be the only one who thought he came across as open and transparent, a trait sadly lacking in many contemporary politicians. He answered many questions, including military goals and the economic plan for Scotland.

The economic plan, no doubt, will link to the military one. He outlined that Scotland will take on its % of the national debt, which was generous of him, whilst outlining that all the economic resource in the sea we share with a number of countries would belong to Scotland. He pointed out that the trillions Scotland would have in that resource area would dwarf their inherited debts. He also tried to looked slightly saddened that the debt left for the rest of the UK would look particularly painful given the sudden loss of trillions from the North Sea. Against this plan his need for an armed forces to protect Scotland never looked so earnest or urgently needed.

His only flaw was his Blofeld-like propensity to monologue over his master plan, presuming the rest of the UK is strapped to the laser table. Perhaps he is confident that the native Scots who have sworn allegiance to the Crown will successfully undermine the UK Armed Forces before the inevitable war between Scotland and the rest of the UK. Perhaps he also intends to claim the nuclear deterrent after all to level the playing field at the time where he takes all the assets he wants in his master plan to plunge the UK into the crisis he seeks.

Still, we have not had a war of national survival for a while and I understand subjugating the Scots can be rather fun. I've picked out my bit of Scotland that I will claim as my own once the conflict is over; tended to by the shackled locals of course.

[Caractacus]

Given that Scotland is one of Great Britain's poorer areas I don't see why those living in the north would want to risk their economic future by de coupling from the south.

Unless they significantly reduce local taxation there is little incentive for business to relocate north - and the outlying Highlands and Islands are relatively impoverished.

Whatever Salmon may postulate - he lives in a democracy and I reckon the Scots will put their pennies before their politics. If they don't then give it five years and there will be financial crisis.

As regards thoughts of military independence then that is just awful. what on earth would be achieved stoking a civil war?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

I'll go fly for a new Scottish Air Force if they give me at least a 25% pay hike, make my flying pay pensionable, buy off the shelf, and don't adopt JPA :ok:

In fact, do those things and it'll be pretty oversubscribed, I'd say!

[Caractacus]

5 Forward 6 Back,

Straight question - would you fight a war against the English?

[Willard Whyte]

Parliament shoots its own armed forces in the foot - and indeed other limbs too.

[cazatou]

Does this mean the reactivation of RAF Acklington?

After all, if the SNP declare an independent Scottish State then the Air Defence arrangements for Northern England would need to be reviewed. RAF Ouston is now an up market housing estate (the house of a niece of my Wife is situated on the intersection of the former runways) but HM Prison Acklington could easily be reconverted to an active aerodrome.

[Finningley Boy]

I rather imagine that the reason Fred Flin... sorry... ahem, Alex Salmond has not been anywhere near sufficiently forth coming about the Defence arrangements of a wholly independent Scotland is because he hasn't got a clue what he's going to do. It's rather like some starry eyed teenager with a silly idea about running away to London or America or something like that, in order to seek their fame and fortune. When Dad puts his paper down for a second and asks; just what are you going to do for money ? where are you going to stay exactly? the teenager irrationally regards such questions as being deliberately posed to be awkward, rather than a serious attempt to see how far the teenager has thought through the plan. And that is exactly how Salmond responds to the Independent Scotland Defence and Security question. He simply doesn't know, and what's more, its not that particular part about an Independent Scotland that he is particularly interested in and would rather people stopped annoying him with questions about it!:hmm:

FB:)

[tucumseh]

Will Benbecula still be a punishment posting, as it was in the Civil Service?

[muttywhitedog]

Monday. Salmond & Scotland are given full independence and ownership of all the North Sea assets.

Tuesday. England invades and takes all of Scotland's assets.

Wednesday. Scotland ceases to be independent and is annexed as part of the United Kingdom. The English Govt give scotland 50% of what they were used to having as the formula for spending per head is re-written to make it per person, rather than how it is now.

....and repeat 400 years later.

[Rigga]

...and the mighty mouth also stated that he would get rid of WMD.

Back to chucking rocks then? (though, to be fair they do have a good supply of those)

Would it be too presumtuous to ask that he spends his trillions on relocating the things he does not want?

[sitigeltfel]

Monday. Salmond & Scotland are given full independence and ownership of all the North Sea assets.
Tuesday. England invades and takes all of Scotland's assets.Alternative scenario....

Scotland shocked when much of the North Sea oil they claimed was all theirs is discovered, after international arbitration, to belong to England, Norway and Denmark.
England ignores Salmonds bleating, closes the border and leaves the Scots to stew in their new found utopia.

[BATS]

Better still - Scotland votes no to Independence, but Westminster debates the change to the UK and decides to kick Scotland out anyway.....

[racedo]

Why would Scotland need a huge army and air force ?

Could someone outline which country is likely to want to invade or start a war ?

UK Oil production totalled 1.26 million barrels a day in 2010 and even assumming only 70% was Scottish and thats excluding any Gas produced so I reckon they could survive on their own.

[mustpost]

Could someone outline which country is likely to want to invade
Oil production totalled 1.26 million barrels a day in 2010 and even assumming only 70% was Scottish ?
Er?? Seemed to be good enough for Iraq and Libya...

[Hummingfrog]

Is the oil Scottish or Shetland? I have yet to meet a Shetlander who feels he is Scottish their roots are more Scandinavian than Scottish. The island was mortgaged to James III by King Christian I of Norway in 1469. James III then annexed (stole) the island in 1472.

If Salmond offers the Scots a referendum on independence from UK then surely he must offer Shetland a chance to be independent from Scotland or remain with UK - see how much oil he has then!!

HF

[NutLoose]

Ideal scenario...........

Scotland hold referendum and populace decides to remain part of UK.......
Cameron agrees, closes the Scottish assembly as the referendum has voted against independance, moves all decision making back to Parliament and sells of the buildings saving £100's of millions a year in duplicated wastage in Civil service and buildings..

Cameron offers the Welsh a referendum, Welsh turn it down as wish to remain part of UK.....
Cameron agrees, closes the Welsh assembly as they have voted to stay part of UK, moves all decision making back to Parliament and sells of the buildings saving £100's of millions a year in duplicated wastage in Civil service and buildings....

Cameron offers.......

:)

[TBM-Legend]

Brixton holds a referendum and decides to remain as part of Jamaica..:eek:

[jxk]

Will the people living across the 'border' have to prove they're Scottish and will Hadrian's wall have to be rebuilt?

[Fareastdriver]

Once upon a time if you had a Bank of Scotland bank account you were automatically a citizen of Scotland.

Nowadays you are a citizen of Halifax.

[Capetonian]

Maybe it will put paid once and for all to arguments about 'Scottish' bank notes being accepted elsewhere. I always have difficulty getting these accepted anywhere south of Manchester, expect of course the Channel Islands where they also have thier own notes and coins.

If Scotland gets its independence their 'poond' will probably be worth 2 English ones!

[Ivan Rogov]

"If" this went ahead Scotland would then have WMDs (4 x SSBNs) that could easily be launched within 45mins, rouge state? Wouldn't be too difficult to invade as we practice twice each year in the Minches :E

Aside of all the divisive national rhetoric back in the real world. I am about to move from Northern Scotland after more than 10 years, a superb part of the UK with some great people, outstanding scenery and a quality of life my family will struggle to experience again. Oh well back to the rat race :{

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Ivan R:
rouge state eh? Well, better Red than dead, I s'pose.

Capetonian:
Scots pound worth 2 of the real version? I take it the news of HBOS and RBS didn't make it down to your part of the Southern Hemisphere.

Mind you, I'm a fine one to talk for someone who believes that Scotland begins the other side of Okehampton - the best flying I get these days is on the increasingly-rare occasions I'm allowed to fly the Northern Lighthouse Board's heli. Has to be one of the best rotary jobs anywhere, but don't let the company know I said that. Oh, b****r...

[pr00ne]

What on earth makes the likes of Salmond imagine that ANY of the oil revenue would flow the way of an independent Scotland? The way that international borders are worked out would mean that the vast majority of the North Sea oil fields would be English with a smattering being Norwegian, Dutch and Danish.

In that case then the oil revenue would go exactly where it goes right now, straight to the City of London.

Oh, and cazatou, I think that you have your Northern England airfields mixed up. Ouston is now Albermarle barracks and the airfield a training and exercise area, no building on the airfield of housing. I think you may be thinking of the former RAF Thornaby, which has been built on.

As to reopening Acklington, kinda difficult as the airfield has been removed from the face of the earth by vast open cast mining and is now restored to farmland while what remains of the technical and domestic area is a prison.

[Wensleydale]

How can you tell its a Scottish £5 note?

It says on it: " I promise to owe the bearer....". ;)

[Tourist]

proone

"The way that international borders are worked out would mean that the vast majority of the North Sea oil fields would be English with a smattering being Norwegian, Dutch and Danish. "


Can you back that total bollocks statement up with any evidence?

I consider myself to be British, could play rugby for 3 of the home nations (if I was any good), despise all this divisive crap and will vote against Scotish independance if is comes to the vote, however, trying to suggest that most of the oil would be English if it happened is just sheer propaganda. I believe we all do best joined up as a group, but don't pretend that Scotland is some kind of a parasite on England.

A very simple google search will show you the layout of the fields, and 99% of the oil would be Scottish. 90% of the Gas would be English.

Scotland generated 9.4% of UK tax with 8.4% of the population last year.....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Hummingfrog has an excellent point. I'd move to Shetland and defend it if they declared Independence. About a third of the oilfields are in what would become Shetland waters, and a few more if Orkney went with them.

As for "would you fight the English?", I hadn't noticed they'd stopped! That's why they won't restart England v Scotland football matches.

[pr00ne]

Tourist,


Look up international border arbitration with respect to a border crossing a coastline. There are numerous examples.
Basically, the angle at which the border crosses the coast is extended out to sea. Do that with the English/Scottish border and by far the majority of the oil and gas fields fall easily within the English boundaries.

[cazatou]

Pr00ne

Odd that - I was there just a couple of weeks ago and the Sign Posts said Ouston.

[pr00ne]

cazatou,


Even odder, I was at what was RAF Ouston, and is now Albermarle Barracks and the home of 39 Regiment Royal Artillery two months ago. The runways are all intact and are used for driver training. Not a single building on the old airfield site.
Have a look at

The Airfields Of Northumberland Ouston (http://www.content-delivery.co.uk/aviation/airfields/Ouston.html)

[orgASMic]

Scotland generated 9.4% of UK tax with 8.4% of the population last year.....

Would that be from all the duty on the booze and fags consumed?;)

[airpolice]

Sam, get off the fence and say what you really think.

[Finningley Boy]

It amazes me how sore the English are about the idea of Scottish independence, for a start they see England as the be all and end all, its independence from the Union that is the question, not England. England isn't the union on its own, just the biggest fattest lump. It also is interesting how, SAMXXV, you feel you can make such derogatory remarks about some people, but perhaps not others, on this septic isle!:ouch:

[airpolice]

SAMXXV Wrote:
independant Scotland:ugh:


Alex Salmond is happy for Scots MPs not to vote on English matters, in fact he'd rather there were no Scots MPs in Westminster. Thats the point!

[langleybaston]

Amen, I'll have some of that.

[Finningley Boy]

It's because the Scots want (& seem to be getting - at the moment) everything for free, despite paying exactly the same taxes as the English. Is that fair?

The sooner that Scotland buggers off out of the "Union" the better.

I don't see Salmond's logic as anything other than the rantings of a moron. Why should Scottish MP's vote on English matters - yet he insists that English MP's cannot vote on Scottish issues - as is the case at present?

Salmond is the Scottish equivelent of John Prescott - a ranting overpaid windbag. The sooner we see an independant Scotland, Wales & certainly N. Ireland, the better!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif


Speaking of ranting windbags I don't think any of the afore mentioned could hold a candle to you Mr. But the problem I have, as I noticed Tourist has as well, is that I agree with you about Salmond and Prescott, but you go and spoil it all by tarring everyone with the same brush. I like, I presume, Tourist am a Scot. Of scottish origins anyway. I was born in Ayrshire, my parents come from there also. I am also a staunch loyalist, I am also dismayed at the seeming lack of grasp of many of those scots who the BBC and so on always manage to find to spew some anti-English ignorance on the TV when opinions are sought. But you are just as bad as the thickets, by no means all Scots, North of the border, an idiot who thinks he is personally imbued with the greatness of, in your case, England's past. :=

FB:)

[SPIT]

I always thought (I could be wrong) that beyond 12 or 20 miles out from the coast it is classed as international waters ? so how could the?any OILFIELDS be Scotland's if they are Not in there waters ? :confused::confused:

[Tourist]

SPIT

It is a lot more complex than that.

SAMXXV

You are Sorry - no personal insults tolerated. Find another way to express yourself. (Mods)

Scotland gets given a budget.
They then choose how to spend it.
Because they have chosen to go for free university etc they have had to cut back in other areas.
It's very simple.

[WarmandDry]

It is a very long time since I completed “Law of the Sea” courses.
If my memory serves me right then the international borders are projected at the angle from the coast they run at before reaching the coast. That means the English-Scots border would run SW to NE and the Scots-Shetland border NW to SE approximately. Add in Norway etc and it could leave Scotland with very little oil to the East if Shetland went its own way.
National economic zones run 200 nautical miles out from the coast, or can be claimed using continental shelf data. In the end it all requires international agreement or decision by the international courts.

[no-ones_princess]

Just think how many Jock C*cks that you know and that’s your new fighting force! :E

<Disclaimer - I am a Facist and I am half English half Jock>

God Forbid this madness!!!
　
　
So how will we British Citizens be effected? Yet more scrounging economic illegal immigrants from a third world country (Scotland) claiming political asylum! :ugh:


I am all for building a big wall with Sentry points (keep our Squaddies in work no more redundancies) the kind soldiers can feed the kids biscuits through the barbed wire (like in Sierra Leon) I predict civil unrest and sassinak murder you will all be needed to return to the duties you performed in the former Yugoslavia. :sad:
　
I too would like to know how Scotland is going to put stations and Garrisons back together? Suppose they could build it in lego and sell it off when it all goes wrong! (idea pinched from MQ’s) :eek:
　
So where is the money coming from? Scotland needs to sort out its infrastructure. The purse is empty. Any funds available need to go into the Road network ect. The A75 as an example is a TIR route and is terrible to drive so without good transport links in its own country how does it think it can possibly support industry or a Military:confused:
　
The Jockanese are never happy unless we have something to whinge about. Give the Buckie drinking Neds chewing the fat what they want! Lets all of us on this side of the boarder find a nice safe vantage point and watch the fall out. 　

My Solution - I am a Facist I am not committing myself in writing.

[d88]

Just to add some clarity to the "whose oil" it really is debate

I've uploaded the oil dividing lines made up by the then DTI

oil dividing lines.pdf (http://www.mediafire.com/?xvtdvihh7o2swj6)

also

The Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 defines the UK North Sea maritime area to the north of latitude 55 degrees north as being under the jurisdiction of Scots lawmeaning that 90% of the UK's oil resources were under Scottish jurisdiction.

[Tourist]

How black gold was hijacked: North sea oil and the betrayal of Scotland - This Britain, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html)

This is from the UN, which I think can be judged as an authority on international boundrys:

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/GBR_1968_Order892.pdf

God people spout some uneducated ****e on here.

[Tourist]

BBC NEWS | The Reporters | Evan Davis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/evandavis/2007/04/the_scottish_gamble_1.html)

This is a quite reasoned look at the situation.

[theredbarron]

I am absolutely shocked at the drivel being spouted by contributors to this forum whom I had assumed to be intelligent: members of our armed forces.

Tourist mentioned earlier on that Scotland contributes 9.5% of the UK Government's total revenues, from 8.5% of the UK's total population, and receives back 9.0% of total UK Government spending (these figures are the UK Governmenr's own - NOT Alex Salmond's). Who's subsidising who folks?. Another contributor claimed Scotland to be one of the UK's poorest areas: wrong, Scotland is second only to the SE of England in GDP. What I'm trying to say here is that an independant Scotland would be well able to pay its way in the world and independant estimates are that it would be the world's sixth richest country per head of population.

Who's oil is it? Yes, the "border" in the North Sea was drawn up by agreement between the Westminster and Scottish Governments and does place some fields questionably in English jurisdiction. However, the majority of current production is in Scottish waters, as are almost all of the new fields being opened up, which are west of Shetland (Shell's £4.5 billion investment announced last week).

By all means let us debate the pros and cons of Scottish independence, but let's do it with facts, not cheap innuendo and gross misinformation. I know that if I could turn the clock back a few years I'd be signing up for the Royal Scottish Air Force.(Yes, "Royal" as Scotland would continue to be a constitutional monarchy within the Commonwealth with the Queen as Head of State)

[fantom]

This is a quite reasoned look at the situation.

So is mine: Nuke 'em 'til they glow.

[no-ones_princess]

Is the oil argument really a valid one? It seems to be the subject that upsets the Scots the most!

Scotlands oil is depleting it is an unsustainable. Economically it is not sound for XXX years so from a financial/economic point of view it is already a lost argument. There was a huge conference in 2005 about ‘Scotlands oil’ the upshot we’re running out. (do a net search if your really interested!)

Scotlands energy sources such as Hydro and Nuclear are much more valid arguments on how Scotland can actually sustain financial independence (selling to Englands national grid ect) but that along with Tourism, farming, forestry, fishing (traditional money spinners) are not going to keep a country from Economic Crisis. Even with industry that has settled in Scotland in the last 3 decades the money is not there! Scotland needs a much sounder infrastructure to become totally independent.

Great Britain can not afford to keep our forces with equipment/training. Does anyone believe Scotland can achieve this? Where are the expertise coming from? A younger fitter Army (have Scotland not got the largest obesity rate in the UK?) but where are they going to recruit the old and the bold from? What kind of incentive can be offered?

FANTOM :ok::ok::ok:

[Fareastdriver]

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLAT...8_Order892.pdf


That's the Irish Sea sorted. What about the North Sea?

[theredbarron]

No-Ones Princess. Recently revised estimates are that there is a minimum of 40 year's reserves left. That however is likely to increase as rising oil prices allow the search to continue further into the Atlantic.

40 years of revenue accruing to the Scottish exchequer and wisely used should enable us to develop alternative energy sources, and revenue streams from industrial and commercial developments, to allow Scotland to continue to prosper.

Fat pongoes? Strange that when proportionately more of the UK's infantry soldiers are Scottish.

[Finningley Boy]

Still nobody has answered my question about what upsets the English so terribly about the thought of Scottish independence, I know why it upsets me personally as a Scot, but I don't understand why so many English people are that alarmed to the point of hurling xenophobic abuse about.

If the oil was all to go to England, then the reaction would be curiosity and dismay, but instead we've got dagger drawn arguments, suggesting that this may not be the case. The biggest problem for the English is not that the Scots get too much in the way of public spending, they don't, but that they spend the money far more wisely. In England you've got no end of wasted budgets and money down the drain. Partly the reason we're where we are now.:}

FB:)

[ninja-lewis]

That's the Irish Sea sorted. What about the North Sea? Actually the Continental Shelf Act 1964 and the Continental Shelf (Jurisdiction) Order 1968 (which define Scottish waters in the North Sea as everything above the 55th parallel) are out of date. They do, however, represent the "traditional" boundary between England and Scotland.

What you need to look at is the Scottish Adjacent Waters Boundaries Order 1999. This defines the Anglo-Scotland boundary in the North Sea on the principle of equidistance. As a result the boundary runs North-East from the coast at 55° 48' 42"N 02° 01' 54"W to 56° 27' 10'N 00° 38' 41'W where the boundary heads East to 56° 36' 31'N 02° 36' 26'E.

Thankfully the Department of Energy and Climate Change have a handy wallchart that shows the boundary. It also shows all the offshore oil and gas infrastructure in British waters. It demonstrates that the SAWBO puts a relatively small part of the Central North Sea into English waters (compared to the old 55th parallel boundary). It does not however, affect the remaining Scottish parts of the Central North Sea, the Northern North Sea and West of Shetland where most of the oil lies.

There is absolutely no case for any line further north than the one defined in the SAWBO nor any line further south than the 55th parallel - all in accordance with UNCLOS.

[Tourist]

http://i404.photobucket.com/albums/pp121/Tourist_photos/99112601.gif

This one, you mean?

Lets all play a game of "where are the oilfields?"

[Hummingfrog]

Tourist the article by the BBC reporter Evans is a little out of date and while alot of it is still valid this quote

It's a gamble because we don't know what will happen to oil, and nor do we know how successful Scotland will be at reinvigorating its economy.

It could go right, as it has for Ireland in recent years.


shows how events can catch economies out.

Salmond "used" to talk that an Independent Scotland would be as successful as the tiger economies of Iceland and Eire. He doesn't anymore:E.

As an Englishman who is married to a Scot and had lived in Scotland I fear that a lot of wool is being pulled over the Scot's eyes. We have seen the SNP up in arms about the closure of bases in Scotland but when pressed they have no credible defence policy. I am sure that the small airforce that Salmond envisages (based on his enthusiasm for Iceland and Ireland and their small airforces) will be based on existing civil airfields such as Prestwick. So all their rhetoric supporting Lossie et al is false and is just to ensure that the locals here in the SNP strongholds vote as required. I predict that an independent Scotland will have no pure air force bases.

I admit that Salmond has been good to me personally - 2 kids through Uni for free, a freeze on Council tax and free prescriptions. However, I can't get an NHS dentist, the nearest motorway is 120mls away, the local major A road the A96 is a disgrace along with our single track railway. So personal bribes have been good but the area's infrastructure is badly underfunded. Even improvements are made on the cheap - the 2 local bypasses, on the A96, that have been built in the last 22yrs are single carriageways.

In the short term oil revenues may just keep the 25% of Scots employed in the public sector in work but it will run out. I have worked in the oil industry and seen how predictions of revenue can be erratic and how production can both be greater than envisaged as well as drop well below what was expected (Miller Platform).

I hope I and the rest of those living in Scotland make the right decision once Salmond reveals both the referendum question as well as the date of the poll.

HF

[ninja-lewis]

Tourist - sorry, forgot to include the link to the wallchart. Includes both the SAWBO boundaries and UK offshore infrastructure.

https://www.og.decc.gov.uk/information/bb_updates/maps/Infrast_Off.pdf

[Airborne Aircrew]

In the short term oil revenues may just keep the 25% of Scots employed in the public sector in work but it will run out.

Thank god for crofting eh? Scotland's new "green" industry....

[Ivan Rogov]

So let me get this straight, an independent Scotland would have WMDs and oil? Would I still get the Operational Allowance for working from home once we inevitably invade?

Funny how nationalism brings out the worst in people, or not :ugh: please think twice before replying (retaliating) to some of the bile coming out here. BTW, I've met plenty of great service bods from all over the UK.

Out of interest, would any vote be for those registered to vote in Scotland? i.e:Those who actually live there

[jamesdevice]

Well, lets just redraw the border to where it should be - the Antonine Wall

[ZH875]

Out of interest, would any vote be for those registered to vote in Scotland? i.e:Those who actually live there


You mean Jocks actually live there?, thought the Jockanese would do anything for Scotland EXCEPT live there.

[racedo]

Always find it funny that when someone mentions Scottish independence it is always met with abuse from English people as in "let them go they will be sorry" etc etc.

Ambivalent on the issue but doubt London Govt would allow breakup without some form of action.

[Wensleydale]

Always find it funny that when someone mentions Scottish independence it is always met with abuse from English people as in "let them go they will be sorry" etc etc.



You have the wrong end of the stick - we English find it amusing to wind up the Scots, and this is the best way of doing it at the moment (unless we put an extra tax on deep-frying fat). They take it all far too seriously.

[althenick]

e Well, lets just redraw the border to where it should be - the Antonine Wall

I thought it was the Hadrian wall until the Gay Italian Midget tried his luck at getting the throne. On a serious note why would any sane minded Englishman/woman want Glasgow or Edinburgh to be part of England?

[airpolice]

Not any more than the Scots would want them.

However, such a division leaves England with two huge airports right on our border and we would only have Leuchars and Machrihanish, although the Cowal Peninsula would extend a long way into the English part of the Atlantic.


I suspect that things will get worse before they get better and survival may become more important than Independence before the SNP get around to having a vote on splitting away from Westminster.

Some real cuts to public services are going to be needed, not this fannying around we have seen so far. Proper money saving cuts to budgets that leave the taxpayer funding what’s required not all the nice to have crap. Let’s get the Police, Fire and NHS funded and then see what money is left over for national defence.

Leave all the rest of the leeches like the Scottish National Orchestra and the Opera, National Portrait Gallery and Historic Scotland to stand, or fall, by their own means. If the people want Opera, let them pay for it the way that Speedway clubs need to survive on what they get trhough the gate from fans.


Cut all the waste of the economic folly that is the regeneration budget. All this free money from the government has to come from somewhere and if it were not so readily available in huge lumps, then the taxation burden would ease upon the rest of us.

Instead of the Police cutting 10% across the board and seeing crime fighting suffer, why not just do away with entire, non productive, departments and staff like the Diversity Co-ordinators and Marketing Executives.

Let’s have fewer council staff doing plant pots in the town centres and flower beds along the edge of the motorways. Everywhere you look you can see public money spent on things that only the recipient of the money actually wants.

£50 Million quid for a painting? If the Titan is really worth that then let someone with 50 million quid buy it, not the taxpayer.

To return to Air Defence, Scotland could operate a small airforce to protect the Scottish border and offshore assets, without the need for an expeditionary warfare capacity. Such an airforce could do without a lot of the waste that currently holds back the RAF from getting value for money.


It’s not going to happen of course, we’ll see the whole system fall apart first, as the money men hold out until the very bitter end like Gadaffi did.

Watch what happens in Greece when they can't find the money to pay the Police and the Army.

Control your ambition, or it will bring you down.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Straight question - would you fight a war against the English?

Absolutely not, never; and despite the 25% pay rise etc I wouldn't touch an independent Scotland's armed forces if I thought there was any likelihood of anything like that, obviously.

But a generous package, no risk of ridiculous civil war, and a chance to stay living in some lovely parts of Scotland would be hard to resist if independence appeared.

[Tourist]

I'm not pro-independance, in fact the very opposite, but I am not going to sit around whilst people spout bollocks about how Scotland is a parasite on England.

All members gain from being part of the Union, particularly the Welsh.

[Grumpy106]

It seems apparent that this is quite an emotive subject, although no-one has really approached where an independent Scottish military would come from. Would Scots in the UK Military be 'drafted', or would it require a whole new set of infrastructure for recruitment, trg? Would ex-pat Scots go flooding back to their new Country, thus boosting its economy? At the end of the day, I feel that Scotland will never get (and does not need) total independence, it is much better off maintaining the status quo and allowing idiots like Salmond to milk the patriotism of its residents (and ex-pats, Mr Connery) for their own benefit.

[Finningley Boy]

Tourist and Grumpy 106,

I am in total agreement!:ok:

FB:)

[orgASMic]

no-one has really approached where an independent Scottish military would come from. Would Scots in the UK Military be 'drafted',

When Czechoslovakia split into the Czech Republic and Slovakia, those serving in the Armed Forces were given the choice of which 'new' country to serve and were posted accordingly. The hardwear was split mostly on the basis of where it was when the split was made with some exchanges made on the basis of need and ability to provide support (ie Slovakia knew it could not afford to have everything that was bequeathed). It was done very equitably and with little fuss.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Sam,

There was a link to a very good article explaining how 40 years of oil revenue could be used to support Scotland while setting itself up as an independent economy, with all sorts of tricks it could use to encourage high tech companies and the like to invest that the UK currently can't use. Go read them.

After the phenomenal torrent of disgraceful racism that flowed out from your earlier posts, I don't think you have a leg to stand on with being called a name or 2.

[dervish]

Arran/Tartan knitwear


That would be Aran in Ireland you're talking about. We don't need knitwear here. I sit under palm trees outside my local pub! :ok:

[Tourist]

I should have said retarded and unable to read.

You challenge us to show how Scotland could be financially improved after independence.

I will say again for the hard of thinking. Yes Sam, I am talking about you xenophobic types. (look it up)

I do not think independence would be good.

Scotland would be poorer.

This does not mean therefore England would be richer. The Union benefits from scale. We would all be poorer if the Union split.

[Tourist]

"I never had a pleasant experience dealing with Scots/Welsh/Irish aircrew............. "

Gosh, I wonder why.......

Perhaps because you are a w..........

onderful person?

[teeteringhead]

(and ex-pats, Mr Connery) ... remember a few years ago when 007 (the best one!) got some award (BAFTA?) from Prinny Anne.

He was fully dressed up in Jock Frock etc, showing his (extremely) brown knees to advantage.

Says HRH: "You didn't get THAT suntan in Scotland!" ba boom!

[Finningley Boy]

until the RAF decreed around 1979 that only "officers" could be RAF pilots. He PVR'd...

I think that you'll find that would be 1959! By the way SAMXXV I'm sorry you've had such a poor experience of Scots, Irish and Welsh people. Me too, I've also known some great English people, but I've not quite been able to separate everyone quite so meticulously and then find that all the arseholes are of Keltic origin and the good guys all Angles and Saxons. Take my advice, regarding your Pure Anglo-Saxon crusade, give it up now, before you find out just how many people with such origins aren't actually English or don't regard themselves as such... and just how many people have no Anglo-Saxon lineage, whatsoever, yet regard themselves as English through and through?! Ta very much!:ok:

FB:)

[The Old Fat One]

I am English through & through. I don't suffer fools at all.


Guess you live in a house with no mirrors then.

Your comments do mark you out as an ignorant, bigoted racist...and also someone with a grossly exaggerated sense of his own self worth.

Once read in book that people who quote the achievements of their ancestors often have little of their own to boast about.

Top tip mate...stop insulting all and sundry and life may just look a little sunnier.

[no-ones_princess]

So disapointed in you all. :{ What a lot of FA!

I have seen less bitch slapping and comedy fighting down Sleaford on a Saturday night?

Your acting like a bunch of drippy brilo boys. 'He called me names', 'you said my countries poor.' Can you just read yourselves. :ugh:

Especially the poor lad crying about being called a Retard! Jesus if thats the worst you have ever been called I suggest you do some eavesdropping fella. Your eyes will be opened.

Xenaophobia - Rangers - Celtic - Scotland is full of Bigots I grew up there in the 1980's and I have lots of memories of how much Scotland loves service families and Englishmen. Fe Fi Fo Fumb :rolleyes: If you can't take a joke!

Your supposed to be grown ups are you really taking what people write on a forum as gospel? For Example - I could tell you that I am a I have 34 inch long legs, long blond hair, I am typing naked, I am eating a flake, I am a pole dancer I am Welsh and my opinion on world Economics is give me a pen and I will sort it out. Not one thing on the above list is true but do you now doubt what I have written or the denial? Forums are full of people who are full of BS. Even those people are entitled to their own opinion.

Play nicely boys stop throwing spanners and logs about. ;):p

[Airborne Aircrew]

Your comments do mark you out as an ignorant, bigoted racist..

Sam may be ignorant, he may be bigoted, he may be both, but by demonstrating his bigotry and ignorance against other nationalities does not, I'm afraid, make him a racist.

Please don't use the NewSpeak proffered upon us by the PC crowd... It only serves to encourage them...

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

To get vaguely back to the thread, I still think Hummingfrog had a good point about taking Independence to its logical conclusion, and allowing Shetland a referendum. As others have mentioned, large amounts of investments are going into oilfields that would belong to Shetland if they went it alone. Salmond wouldn't be best pleased at all by that, but he can't have a moral argument against it.
As those who've visited Saxa Vord will know, the nearest railway station is Bergen, Norway. I found the locals to be more Norwegian in character than typical jock (read "pleasant and generous").

[Tourist]

"I found the locals to be more Norwegian in character than typical jock (read "pleasant and generous"). "


What!
They are a bunch of inbreds!

[Goprdon]

For too long Englishness has been synonymous with Britishness.
National identity resides in the mind. I am English.
If you are interested in a vision of England as I believe it could be, especially if free of the Celtic fringes, then I recommend that you read Roy Strong's new book "Visions of England".

[HTB]

I really have to speak up against SAM's ranting (off topic, I know), particularly his vicious characterisation of Gp Capt McRobbie and Father Enda Naughton at RAF Laarbruch. I served at Laarbruch from 1984 to 1992 and, so can make comparisons between successive leaders; they were all sound and sensible men who allowed the boys a long leash to play on, and pretty forgiving of all but stupid transgression.

I'm not RC, but found Father Enda to be sociable in the Mess and robust in his view of life (I recall a subsequent incident, in London I think, where he tackled, literally, a would be thief and pinned him down until further assistance came - and he was then not a young man).

I can only imagine that SAM was a misfit, or doing a job that he was not well-suited for, making him unhappy, or the subject of professional criticism. I must have known him if he was an officer serving at LBH during my time there, but by the tone of his postings I would probably have avoided his company.

Mister B

[Union Jack]

Sadly I am a total racist. - but only in my own country - England. I make no excuses. I am Anglo Saxon & am proud of my heritage. My Grandfather was the RSM of the Vth Inniskining Dragoon Guards during both the Boer War & the 1st World War. He was awarded both the MC & the DSM.

Oh dear, Sam! I'll leave others to comment on whether or not you are a racist, and also respond to your intemperate personal outburst against named officers, and content myself with helping you sort out your family tree.

Firstly, there has never been a regiment named the Vth Inniskining Dragoon Guards. There was a regiment named the 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, formed from the amalgamation of the 5th and 6th Dragoons, but this was not until 1927, long after the periods of service you mention. Furthermore, in view of your burning desire to be regarded as English, please note that the "Skins" as they were known had all their origins in Ireland!

Secondly, assuming that by DSM you mean the Distinguished Service Medal, you should be aware that this was instituted in 1914 for award predominantly to naval personnel rated Chief Petty Officer and below, whlist the DSC or Distinguished Service Cross was awarded to commissioned officers and warrant officers until 1993, when the DSC was awarded to service personnel of all ranks and ratings. I appreciate that it would not have been impossible for your grandfather (assuming that he was not a walt) to have been awarded the DSM, but it seems much more likely that he was awarded the DCM or Distinguished Conduct Medal, which actually rates higher than the DSM, or its army equivalent the MM or Military Medal.

So, once you have considered that you really should remove the extraordinary personal remarks, I suggest that it would be better employed contacting either the National Records Office or the Dragoon Guards Museum in York to find out more accurate info about your very interesting sounding grandparent.:ok:

I certainly hated ignorant Scot's who would always try to shout you down.

Oh double dear, Sam, who is being ignorant now?:uhoh:

Jack

[Red Line Entry]

His announcement of the end of a Maxeval/Taceval was the deployment of all the mess staff with trays of fried egg sandwiches.

Sounds like a top staish to me....

[Avionker]

SAMMXXV:-

At last you make a point that many of us, I am sure, can agree with you on. We are also embarrassed by the fact that you are ex-RAF.

[Finningley Boy]

SAMXXV,

I joined the R.A.F. in 1977, and mourning the loss of the old R.A.F. was common place then. I'm currently reading Tony Doyle's book " Flying at the Edge" and according to him, the old R.A.F. died out in the 1960s. By the way my own late father thought it petered out immediately following 1945.

All relative I suppose.

P.S. Like the way you refer to S.A.C's as something along the lines of livestock.:ok:

[BEagle]

His announcement of the end of a Maxeval/Taceval was the deployment of all the mess staff with trays of fried egg sandwiches. Better than haggis sandwiches though....

Excellent fellow!

Since all the rocket people did on exercise was to turn up, put the lights on and let the dogs out, I can understand that you didn't view this kindly gesture with much regard.... :mad:

By the way, a bit of a gypsy's - one doesn't come on here and start slagging people off by name. There is a code, old chap.

[Just This Once...]

[sickening pause] ....right.... [another sickening pause]... [insert tumbleweed emoticon]...

[Finningley Boy]

Neither had the guts to go & fly with their squadrons during the 1st Gulf war. They left it to the likes of me to do 24/7 shifts in the Laarbruch WOC as the Operations Officer to sort out anything & everything to do with notifying next of kin & sorting out the repatriation of JP & JN from Akrotiri - along with the British Press Corps.



Did you volunteer to go out to the Gulf and get turned down then Sam? If so I'm sorry to hear it.:{

FB:)

[cazatou]

I must say that, having known the said Gentleman since 1965, I do not recognise the description of the "named and shamed" Group Captain.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Sam:

This Harry Croft?

How Squadron Sergeant Major Harry Croft, Of The 5th Dragoon Guards, Won The D.C.M. At Zillebeke
At the end of February 1915, the 5th Dragoon guards were in the trenches near Zillebeke, performing more or less cheerfully, the work of infantry, as they had been doing all through that long and dreary winter. Meantime, they themselves were receiving a lesson on the imprudence of yielding to a temptation to admire the landscape, where the enemy’s trenches were not a hundred yards from their own, and there happens to be a wood affording admirable cover for snipers in between. For whenever one of them chanced to raise his head above the parapet, a rifle, and as often as not two or three together, cracked.Among the trees, and if he escaped with a bullet hole through his cap or an ugly furrow along his cheek, he might consider himself fortunate. The unwelcome attentions of the marksmen in the word were becoming a serious nuisance, and Squadron Sergeant Major Croft made up his mind to put a stop to it. He did not believe that the shots came from isolated snipers, since it is seldom that two or more snipers fire almost simultaneously, as so frequently happened in this instance, and came to the conclusion that the Germans must have an advanced post somewhere in the wood. Accordingly, on the afternoon of February 27th, he went out to endeavour to locate it; but before he had penetrated more than a few yards into the wood he was seen and fired upon by the Germans, and obliged to return. However, he had noted the direction from which the shots came, and that night he crept over the parapet of the British trench and crawled into the wood again. The task in which he had undertaken always very dangerous work-was rendered the more hazardous by the fact that there was a bright moon. But, on the other hand the wood had been so damaged by shellfire, that fallen trees and broken branches were lying everywhere, and on a dark night it would have been almost impossible for him to move about without making a noise which would have attracted the enemy’s attention.
Slowly and cautiously, Croft made his way through the wood, and had come within thirty yards of the German entanglements, without seeing any signs of an advanced post, when suddenly he heard voices quite close to him; and there, only a few paces ahead, was a trench filled with Germans. Croft had not brought his rifle with him, since it would have hampered his movements; but he had provided himself with a couple of revolvers, and drawing these, he took cover behind a tree and began blazing away at the astonished Germans. Shrieks and curses told him that some at least of his shots had not been wasted, and in a minute or two the enemy, evidently under the impression that they had been surprised by a party of our men, got out of the trench and made off to their own lines as quickly as they could. Nor do they appear to have returned it; anyway the 5th Dragoon Guards had no longer any reason to complain of their unwelcome attentions. Squadron Sergeant Major Croft was awarded the D.C.M. for “conspicuous gallantry,” the official announcement of this honour adding that “he had been noted for courage and enterprise on previous occasions.” The brave sergeant major is a Warwickshire man, his home being at Saltley, Birmingham. Extracted from 'Deeds That Thrill The Empire'


Because there aren't many other SM's out there in V Dragoon Guards that Google is aware of... ;)

[MFC_Fly]

I only found out several years ago by using the "Freedom of Information" act to retreive all my ACR's that McRobbie had told me to my face what a good chap I was - but the ACR's told a different story when I received them from Innsworth....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif
He probably wrote what most of us are thinking :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

He was awarded the DSM as a cavalry RSM for leading a horse attack on a German armoured troop train (the last ever recorded cavalry charge) at Harbonniers, France.

SAM - you really won't be told, will you? I think if my grandfather had won the DCM I'd take care to get the initials right and not repeat the error after it had been pointed out to me.

I certainly hated ignorant Scot's who would always try to shout you down.

Oh double dear, Sam, who is being ignorant now?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

I think you missed Union Jack's point, SAM. I rather think he was referring to that intrusive apostrophe, just in the spirit of adding a little salt to the wound, I suspect.

[Tourist]

Damn apostrophe!

Probably invented by a scot......

[jindabyne]

Neither had the guts to go & fly with their squadrons during the 1st Gulf war.

Untrue, and way out of order. Appalling.

[cazatou]

I hope SAMXXV has a good Lawyer - after all, these derogatory unfounded statements can be read worldwide.

[Just This Once...]

Looks like Sam's new lawyer has advised him to delete his posts! Going to leave mine where it is as it looks even funnier orphaned under BEagle's post.

[hval]

It would appear that Sam also deleted his thread on MBT updates. Just as I was posting a reasoned response. Shame. I am proud of that response that no one will get to see.

[hval]

Pr00ne,

Scotland will own all the oil and gas (including Dorset). Just need to redraw the borders somewhat.

Actually, you are incorrect on what you believe about Scotland. For the population there is in Scotland, the region does give an awful lot of money to the United Kingdom coffers.

As for what both Labour and he Conservatives did, wasting all that oil money in the past, it is a disgrace. That money should have been handled as the Norwegians have handled their oil money.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Looks like Sam's new lawyer has advised him to delete his posts! Going to leave mine where it is as it looks even funnier orphaned under BEagle's post.

Yes, even the one about his dear old grandpappy who he was so proud of... Until he realized he was a little confused about the mans feats, (not insubstantial as they were)...

[Union Jack]

Union Jack: You have destroyed you (sic) reputation. - Sam

Sam, Sam! Oh treble dear, there are so many inaccuracies in your posts that I’m going to allow myself to indulge in a little thread drift. Try to help a poor fellow and what happens? Apparently, according to you, I've destroyed my reputation but, based on your poor staff work, I‘ll leave it to cleverer people than you to judge, as indeed some already have.

So let's look at the evidence .....

In Post 77 you said your grandfather was “RSM of the in*Vth Inniskining (sic) Dragoon Guards during both the Boer War & the 1st World War“.* He was awarded both the MC & the DSM.”

In Post 88 I said there’s no such regiment, but that he could have been in the 5th Dragoons, the forerunner of the 5th Inniskilling Dragoon Guards, formed in 1927, some 12 years after the period you specified.

I also suggested that it seemed unlikely that your grandfather had been awarded the DSM, an essentially naval decoration, and that it seemeds much more likely that he was awarded the DCM or Distinguished Conduct Medal, which actually indicates a higher level of gallantry than the DSM, or its army equivalent the MM or Military Medal.

In Post 92 you say “Well, Union Jack, have look at many websites, if you can find them. My grandfather was RSM Harry Croft MC, DSM of Vth Dragoon Guards“, which is what I suggested, and with no mention of the Inniskillings or indeed the "Inniskinings".

You continued, “ He was awarded the MC for grenading & shooting a German gun position in France in 1915. He was awarded the DSM as a cavalry RSM for leading a horse attack on a German armoured troop train (the last ever recorded cavalry charge) at Harbonniers, France.”

I duly reacted to your rudely worded suggestion and, quick as a flash, I discover that Harry Croft of the 5th Dragoons Guards was indeed awarded a decoration for attacking a German position in France in 1915 as a Squadron Sergeant Major whilst acting as infantry, not the MC as you say above, but precisely the award I suggested, namely the DCM.. Incidentally, since he was an SSM in 1915 so could hardly have been an RSM in the Boer war as you originally stated..

I must admit to feeling a degree of concern at commenting in such a way on the distinguished exploits of a very gallant man, who clearly distinguished himself even further in the attack on the armoured train at Harbonnieres when he won the MC, and not the DSM as you stated, as an RSM in 1918. Incidentally, whilst that may have been what you describe as “the last ever recorded cavalry charge”, it may well have been the last in WWI, but certainly not the last ever as even the briefest research would show.

Equally, I am not at all surprised that Spinks should have placed such a high value on his medals, or that,, even if you managed to get the actual awards the wrong way round, you are so rightly proud of him However, for precisely that last point, I feel able to comment as I have, and believe that you owe it both to your grandfather’s memory, and for the benefit of your family to marshal your facts properly and correctly.

So "Union Jack" my reputation is intact. Is yours? I doubt it. - Sam

As I said in my opening paragraph, I‘ll leave it to cleverer people than you to judge

Jack

PS I couldn't help noticing that you took far too long to withdraw your thoughtless and undistinguished remarks about named officers, nor did you seem to appreciate your Irish connections

PPS I’ve been trying so hard to put you on the right track that, just to make your happiness complete, I forgot to tell you that, yes, I am a Scot!

[Wholigan]

Errr ............... HE didn't withdraw anything himself! ;)

Incidentally, he cannot see what you have written above, as he is PNG in this thread. Sorry.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

Not that it makes any difference to UJ's rather good ripostes to SAMXXV's enthralling and well presented posts, but the 5th Dragoon Guards merged with the 6th Inniskilling Dragoons in 1922, to form initially the 5th/6th Dragoons, later renamed the 5th Dragoon Guards in 1927. I know this because my grandfather was a 6th Inniskilling Dragoon from 1905 until 1912 when he discharged (although he was but a mere private, and was far too canny to go winning any medals), but was subsequently called up again into the 2nd Dragoon Guards in 1915, discharging again in 1920 (still a private ,but with a couple of medals this time). He was apparently gassed at some point, but don't know where, and Mum cant remember, but we still have a few of his possessions (Soldiers Small Book that sort of thing) which are fascinating. Sorry to wander a bit off track!

[Wholigan]

5TH ROYAL INNISKILLING DRAGOON GUARDS (http://www.ronives.co.uk/5th_royal_inniskilling_dragoon_g.htm)
5th Royal Inniskilling Dragoon Guards - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_Royal_Inniskilling_Dragoon_Guards)

I know the second one is Wiki, but they both agree on the lineage.

We were on detachment with them when Walter Courage was a captain. Later, he and Piers Courage visited us at Chivenor, but I can't remember why. Age tha knows.

[Hummingfrog]

I may move in the wrong circles but I have yet to meet anybody who thinks Scotland will be better off independent. There is banter between me as a "white settler" and native Scots such as my in laws about how England supports the Scots but most Scots I know who have voted SNP have done for their own personal reasons, such as free Uni education, rather than the independence issue. They admit they won't vote for independence.

Salmond is a crafty politician who is using every means to stir up an English/Scots divide but he won't hold a referendum now as he knows he will lose it.

A recent UK report on Scottish finance indicates that the extra public finance Scotland gets isn't covered by the revenue from oil. The Scottish budget has run a deficit of £41 billion over the past 30 yrs. This is derived from the £197 billion spent in scotland over the total tax raised - minus the £141 billion that was raised in oil revenue.

I know that statistics are massaged by both sides but this is a serious issue and I hope that the majority of Scots do not think that independence will just mean that everything will just stay the same. the following questions will have to answered in detail:-

1. Will the state pension remain the same - there is no pot to share so from independence day the scottish taxpayer will have to pay some public sector pensions plus all of the state pension.

2. Will the Scottish NHS be fully funded and give the same care as the present UK NHS. I presume Scotland will inherit the infrastructure but what about specialist treatment currently taken in England?

3. Will tax rates be the same - income, car, petrol duty etc?

Plus many more.

For those of you who know about the Edinburgh financial disasters - Parliament budget £40 million cost actually £400+ million - Tram budget £375 million no tram has yet run on a much reduced route yet cost is already £500million + with extra borrowing of £231 Million needed - a shambles! These are the people who will run Scotland!:{

I will fight to remain part of the UK as will alot of Scots I know so all is not yet lost.

HF

[Union Jack]

Wholigan - VMT:D - I saw the posts from JTO, Hval, and AA as I posted and so amended my PS, which originally read " I couldn't help noticing that you have apparently not withdrawn your thoughtless and undistinguished remarks about named officers"!:ok:

Jack

[racedo]

For those of you who know about the Edinburgh financial disasters - Parliament budget £40 million cost actually £400+ million - Tram budget £375 million no tram has yet run on a much reduced route yet cost is already £500million + with extra borrowing of £231 Million needed - a shambles! These are the people who will run Scotland

Hmmm doing that tit for tat isn't going to work as they can easily chuck back
Millenium Dome.......
Any rail investment
Nimrod
Carriers
or even go onto EMU and cost of that.
etc etc

[airpolice]

Unto thee, O LORD, do I lift up my soul.

O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed,let not mine enemies triumph over me.

I can't see where he was going with the 25th Psalm thing.

Wholigan, he could of course just log on without logging in as any user and read all this.

[Wholigan]

Really??? ;)

[airpolice]

Yeah, really really.

Try it with my username if you need to be convinced.

Ban me from pprune, as you have with Sam, and I will still be able to read what you post.

I'll then create a new a/c to pm you from if that makes it clearer that it works.

[500N]

What a shame SAM has gone, I enjoyed watching Union Jack and others pull apart his posts in superb fashion and then watching SAM re post the wrong information again :O, especially when it took 2 minutes for anyone to look up the information on the net to see he was wrong (the Dragoon's web site for a start).

.

.

[blaireau]

But why Papua New Guinea?

[500N]

Try Persona non grata instead of Papua New Guinea.

.

[hval]

500N

Try Persona non grata instead of Papua New Guinea.

I prefer papua New Guinea.

[sidewayspeak]

I want us to break from Scotland, Ireland and Wales for the same reasons as I also want to leave the EU. England puts more money into Scotland and Europe than it receives benefit in return. In addition, the Scots and most of the rest of the world really dislike us.

Whilst they might have good historical reasons to dislike the English - Lord knows we were just a little naughty in the past - they were our ancestors, not our current population. I think we have more than atoned for their actions.

Methinks it is time for England to retreat to its protected little island and pull up the drawbridge. Concentrate on our well-being. Stop funding the world, policing the world, healing the world through the International (sic) Health Service.

Does that make me racist? I'd say no, it makes me patriotic. England is my home and I'd simply rather not share it with the rest of the world.

[Spartacan]

Hummingfrog wrote:

>>I may move in the wrong circles but I have yet to meet anybody who thinks Scotland will be better off independent. There is banter between me as a "white settler" and native Scots such as my in laws about how England supports the Scots but most Scots I know who have voted SNP have done for their own personal reasons, such as free Uni education, rather than the independence issue. They admit they won't vote for independence.<<

That's pretty much the message I am getting from folk in Scotland. They voted SNP because they are actually a half decent technical Government - not because they want to break up the Union. Or, to as one local put it to me:

"Independence? Nah, World's gone crazy enough without that happening".

Personally I think Salmons's rhetoric has become so strident he's frightened people off the idea and has probably cooked his own goose.

[HTB]

UJ beat me to it by a long way - I did similar research last night (not much on the telly!) but couldn't be bothered to post until this morning, no need now. One little confusion though; the gallant Mr Croft was awarded a Medal and then a Cross - would that be a reflection of higher status of RSM over SSM? (and he must have been a mere stripling during the Boer War)

I missed the latest round of vitriol and bile from our superstar, but get the gist of it from the replies. This clown must have been at LBH at the same time as I was (although I'm confused by the Wildenparts timeline); I don't recognise any of what he says as being a true reflection of the situation during GW1 (although that is only hearsay from Mrs HTB, as I was elsewhere being scared by SCUDS and friendly fire).

Anyway, despite SAMXXV being PNG on this site, I wish him well in his forthcoming move to France, where he will be embraced with open arms for his forthright anglo-saxon virtues (by the way, wasn't yesterday the date of the battle of Agincourt - St Crispin's Day?). To get a little philosophical - what is "English"? A mix of Picts, Celts, Romans (and their vassals), Romano-Celts; Angles, Saxons, Jutes; throw in a dash of Danes and other assorted Nordic nations, Normans (a bit of Nordic and a bit of French there), some more germanic influence, Iberian (from Armada remnants to Peninsula War takeaways); the list goes on. Who can say with certainty that their true lineage is Anglo-Saxon? More to the point, who cares; we're British, with differnt accents and outlooks moulded by different (often turbulent) backgrounds.

Mister B

[Wholigan]

I'm sorry airpolice. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried to be funny/sarcastic. I am - of course - fully aware of what punters can and can't do in here, logged in or not. I have also been dealing with re-registrations after banning for a lot of years now. It is surprising how easy most are to spot the style, then check on, then ban again.

Once again I apologise for trying to be sarcastic, I should merely have refrained from comment instead of saying "really???".

The thread ban of Sam was just to stop any more disruption of the thread.

[Tourist]

sidewayspeak


Think that through to its logical conclusion.


Next you better bin Cornwall, bunch of spongers never pull their own weight.
Then the North, useless unemployed types.
Pretty soon there is just London, and guess what, London is only what it is because it is the capital of the UK. By itself it is just a grubby city full of dull w@nkers, and remarkably enough, many of them are Scots who run half the city and political establishment of London.

Scotland gets more spent per person than England, yes, if you average it out. But it is a lot less simple than that. All the rural/underpopulated areas of the UK get more spent per capita. It is obvious why. Every gas pipe/electricity line/bus route/bin run has less people per mile so is less efficient.
Scotland has less people per sq mile than England so the economys of scale are not there. Does this mean that Scottish people have a better standard of service from the Councils than England?
No.
That Scotland chooses to distribute its budget differently from England is their choice. They take hits in other areas.
The UK currently lives off the legacy of our years of empire, and the Scottish more than held their own in building that empire, both in terms of Industry and blood and treasure. Run a very quick google on Scottish inventions or scientists, or Scottish military and you will see that the idea of Scotland as a parasite on England is very misguided. In fact, considering the relative populations, it could well be seen the other way.


This is standard little England crap
Anything the Scots have done well is British, but anything that is not so good is Scottish

[d88]

Hummingfrog -

A recent UK report on Scottish finance indicates that the extra public finance Scotland gets isn't covered by the revenue from oil. The Scottish budget has run a deficit of £41 billion over the past 30 yrs. This is derived from the £197 billion spent in scotland over the total tax raised - minus the £141 billion that was raised in oil revenue.


To put that figure into perspective, I'm pretty sure the same report indictated UK plc had run up over £700 billion of debt over the same period. The same department responsible for producing those statistics have also shown Scotland to be a net financial contributor to the UK.


1. Will the state pension remain the same - there is no pot to share so from independence day the scottish taxpayer will have to pay some public sector pensions plus all of the state pension.

Scots have paid in to the pension pot from the inception of the welfare state, so are perfectly entitled to get an equivalent share. Longer term, pensions is a conundrum affecting every western country, so the same argument can be leveled outwith the borders of Scotland.

2. Will the Scottish NHS be fully funded and give the same care as the present UK NHS. I presume Scotland will inherit the infrastructure but what about specialist treatment currently taken in England?

Health is already a devolved issue in Scotland, so the NHS and all it's infrastructure is already under the control of the Scottish parliament. As for care, per head of population the NHS budget is bigger in Scotland than other parts of the UK with new hospitals being built and the taking out the private sector in relation to hospital cleaning and abolishing car park charges. As for specific treatments, why would that change ? If a patient from Scotland currently needs very specific treatment at a hospital in London for instance then that is paid from the Scottish health budget. There is no reason that would change, as hospital's in London already deal with patients from outwith the UK who need specialized care.

3. Will tax rates be the same - income, car, petrol duty etc?

Quite an open ended question that one, even we don't know how the tax rates will be from year to year in the UK as we're at the whim of a chancellor and his economic forecasts, but the Nats have already hinted that things like corporation tax would be lowered to enable Scotland to bring more job creating inward investment.

For those of you who know about the Edinburgh financial disasters - Parliament budget £40 million cost actually £400+ million - Tram budget £375 million no tram has yet run on a much reduced route yet cost is already £500million + with extra borrowing of £231 Million needed - a shambles! These are the people who will run Scotland!

Both the parliament and the trams were Labour inceptions. Both ill thought out and cynically undercosted. The trams debacle in particular, when Labour pushed the legislation through parliament as they thought it would be a good political wheeze to torpedo the Nats budget at the time. They also failed to put a proper management structure in place to run what is a complex infrastructure project. You can easily argue successive UK governments have also had their fair share of capital mismanagement and pick any number of defence projects and the billions squandered for starters. So far the SNP far have delivered every capital project on time and on budget.

[Lightning Mate]

Then we'll have to make this bigger:

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu82/Lightning_29/hadrians-wall.jpg

[NutLoose]

We will 'ave less of that type of talk Lightning mate, my Mums house is some 100 yards north of that pile of stones, and we are English.....

As our illustrious friend appears to have pulled his posts, he mentioned that the UK fishing fleet has long since gone and the grounds are being picked clean by the likes of the Spanish and Portuguese.
One would like to point out that something that is often skimmed over by the shouters and doubters (including those still in the said industry), is the fact the UK fishing fleets have gone simply because a lot of ship owners decided to make a quick buck and get out business sold their quotas to the fishing boat owners of the countries mentioned.....

[jindabyne]

LM

Looks as though the grass is greener on one side -----

[nocutstoRAF]

To put that figure into perspective, I'm pretty sure the same report indictated UK plc had run up over £700 billion of debt over the same period. The same department responsible for producing those statistics have also shown Scotland to be a net financial contributor to the UK.

This is a very interesting debate and I have registered especially to take part in it (though I have been reading the forum for quite a while now).

I will be candid, I am a fat civvy, that beyond previously providing expert advice to DE on certain maintenance issues with runways and a couple of flying lessons, have zero aviation experience, so if I say something stupid feel free to point it out.

I was picking up on the point that Scotland is a net producer. I cannot find the statistics that have been alluded to by D88, but it does match my memory of things I have seen in the past - what I was wondering about is the variation in Gross Value Added (GVA: a measure goods and services -immediate consumption) in the UK, I have looked at Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Kingdom) and according to this England has the highest GVA, followed by Scotland.

If my understanding is correct this would mean that both England and Scotland produce more than they consume (as if England's GVA is higher than Scotland's, then logically if Scotland is a net producer so it England), and while I lack the statistics to back it up, you could conclude that as a union Scotland and England would be better off without NI or Wales.

[Lightning Mate]

Ah yes, but was the photograph taken facing West or East?

[sitigeltfel]

Ah yes, but was the photograph taken facing West or East?

I guess it was taken facing East. Much of the wall was built running along the South side of a natural escarpment which enhanced its defensive value.

[foldingwings]

Ah bu**er! Being a Scot but, more importantly a proud Brit, and having served my queen for 40 years but never served 'north of the border' I had chosen to ignore this worthless debate until a mate contacted me to draw my attention to SAMXXV's rantings (I like a good laugh) only to discover that I was too late! However, reading between the lines made it somehow even funnier!

Alex Salmond, love him or hate him, is an astute politician who is playing his cards very cleverly! I doubt he actually wants independence but he does want to hang on to power! That he will achieve if he continues to nurture those xenophobic Scots who read their history from the lids of shortbread tins!

Scotland is a great and beautiful country, a former industrial powerhouse and land of scholastic achievement. As I was taught at school in Glasgow many moons ago when its shipbuilding industry was alive but in rapid decline, its wealth and future lay in whisky and tourism. Gas and oil may have given Scotland the thought of future wealth but the reserves of both make neither it nor the United Kingdom equivalent to Saudi Arabia in terms of 'black gold wealth'. Whisky and tourism will remain its only real and sustainable life blood!

There was a very good reason why the Union was formed in 1707 and I can see no reason why any sane person would wish to change it in the future.

If Salmond was daft enough to call for a referendum, those who live in Scotland will not vote in a majority for full independence just as those who live in England will not vote to cast it from the Union!

Only an opinion.

Foldie:ok:

PS. The only true fight takes place at either Twickenham or Murrayfield and afterwards we drink!

[HTB]

Foldie

Write out one hundred times "the possessive pronoun does not have an apostrophe" (unless it's different north of the border).

Mister B

NB (to self) the price of pedantry is eternal vigilance!

[storms1962]

This referendum has batted back and forth for so long and I for one hope it never comes to pass - even as a proud Scot!!

The one thing that has been missed, and would defiantly fill the Scottish coffers, is the new black Gold ie WATER lots of it north of the border handily stored in natural reservoirs. Many may laugh and deride me but in years to come this scarce resource will become more and more important and easily transportable. Something to think about in the debate I know there has been serious discussion over the merit of laying pipes to ship water down to the parched South from the dreich North!

[Tankertrashnav]

the gallant Mr Croft was awarded a Medal and then a Cross - would that be a reflection of higher status of RSM over SSM?

HTB - I'm steering clear of the whole Scotland - England argument but I'm happy to clear up the medal - cross thing for you.

In the time when the services had medals for the ORs and crosses for officers (pre 1993), the cut off came at Warrant Officer rank, or in the case of the army, Warrant Officer class 1. An RSM (or equivalent depending of the arm of service) was a WO1 and would be awarded the Military Cross, a Squadron Sergeant Major was a WO2 rank, and as such would qualify for the award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal or Military Medal. Same rules applied to the RAF, with a lot of WW2 aircrew winning the DFM as sergeants or flight sergeants and the the DFC as Warrant Officers.

The oddest example of this I came across was when I met Warrant Officer John Phillips, Royal Engineers, who had been awarded the Distinguished Service Cross, normally a naval officer's award, for bomb disposal on HMS Argonaut during the Falklands War.

[Tankertrashnav]

Lightning Mate, it's not just Nutloose's mum who lives there, there must be several thousand sheep who live in that big triangular chunk of England which is North of Hadrian's wall. May not amount to much, but I don't think we should be handing it and them back to the Jocks!

[grandfer]

Never mind about the black gold , haven't they just found a huge discovery of the real thing allegedly worth 100s of millions of British Pounds in rock in a mountain in Jockland somewhere ? No wonder they want to keep it to themselves .:suspect:

[sidewayspeak]

sidewayspeak


Think that through to its logical conclusion.


Next you better bin Cornwall, bunch of spongers never pull their own weight.
Then the North, useless unemployed types.
Pretty soon there is just London, and guess what, London is only what it is because it is the capital of the UK. By itself it is just a grubby city full of dull w@nkers, and remarkably enough, many of them are Scots who run half the city and political establishment of London.

Scotland gets more spent per person than England, yes, if you average it out. But it is a lot less simple than that. All the rural/underpopulated areas of the UK get more spent per capita. It is obvious why. Every gas pipe/electricity line/bus route/bin run has less people per mile so is less efficient.
Scotland has less people per sq mile than England so the economys of scale are not there. Does this mean that Scottish people have a better standard of service from the Councils than England?
No.
That Scotland chooses to distribute its budget differently from England is their choice. They take hits in other areas.
The UK currently lives off the legacy of our years of empire, and the Scottish more than held their own in building that empire, both in terms of Industry and blood and treasure. Run a very quick google on Scottish inventions or scientists, or Scottish military and you will see that the idea of Scotland as a parasite on England is very misguided. In fact, considering the relative populations, it could well be seen the other way.


This is standard little England crap
Anything the Scots have done well is British, but anything that is not so good is Scottish


Tourist

You miss my point. It is not all about the money. Quite simply, like Georgia/Latvia/Lithuainia/Serbia/Bosnia etc etc I would like to be a little Englander in England. I have no desire to be part of Europe. I have no desire to have Scottish/Irish/Welsh politicians dictating to England. I have not criticised the Scots or said that anything they do is bad. Merely that the Scots dislike the English. I have no desire to be part of a Union where we are actively disliked.

I don't think that that is racist, or something to be criticised like I am some sort of tattooed scumbag. I just want England to be English and proud.

[Tourist]

"Merely that the Scots dislike the English"

Have you asked them all then?

A Scot who didn't know better might be forgiven for thinking after reading this thread that all English people dislike Scots. In just the same way it is easy to find Rab C Nesbit type Scots. It does not mean that they are the norm, jsy that they are vocal.

"I have no desire to have Scottish/Irish/Welsh politicians dictating to England"

How can Scots dictate to anyone?
It's a democracy. There are not that many Scottish constituancies.

[foldingwings]

granfer,

a huge discovery of the real thing

I think its been known about for a long time (Victorians) and has been mined previously - but now it's to come out big style!

Tourist, I don't often agree with you but:

'Scots dislike the English' - He didn't ask me!

Why, I've been married to 2 Sassy b*tches and whilst I don't have much time or love for the first one now - the second Mrs Foldie is an absolute English Rose who I 'jist cannae gerrenuff o'!

Foldie:\

[NutLoose]

Tankertrashnav (http://www.pprune.org/members/294972-tankertrashnav)

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 64
Posts: 951


Lightning Mate, it's not just Nutloose's mum who lives there, there must be several thousand sheep who live in that big triangular chunk of England which is North of Hadrian's wall. May not amount to much, but I don't think we should be handing it and them back to the Jocks!



I feel like I have just been put on par with a bunch off sheep........:{

Ooops..... better not mention the par word, it is alien to Buster :p

[Finningley Boy]

So what would have happened to SAMXXV? Would the mods have gone round to his house and taken him away into the woods or something?:uhoh:

I promise I'll be good:eek:

FB:)

[sitigeltfel]

Never mind about the black gold , haven't they just found a huge discovery of the real thing allegedly worth 100s of millions of British Pounds in rock in a mountain in Jockland somewhere ? No wonder they want to keep it to themselves .:suspect:

Especially after the first thing Broon did as chancellor was to sell off a large tranche of the stuff from the Bank of England at bargain basement prices.

[Avionker]

sidewayspeak:-

"I have no desire to have Scottish/Irish/Welsh politicians dictating to England"

There are 650 MPs in the House of Commons. Of this total 18 are from Northern Ireland, 59 from Scotland and 40 from Wales. That means 533 of these MPs represent constituencies in England. Who's dictating to whom? This is especially pertinent at the moment considering not one Conservative MP was returned from a seat in Scotland.

Also I understand that the SNP actually bans it's MPs from voting on legislative matters which do not affect Scotland, thus negating their impact with respect to the West Lothian Question.

[Hummingfrog]

d88

Scots have paid in to the pension pot from the inception of the welfare state, so are perfectly entitled to get an equivalent share. Longer term, pensions is a conundrum affecting every western country, so the same argument can be leveled outwith the borders of Scotland.



My point is that there is no state pension pot - all state pensions are paid out of current taxation so from day one of independence all Scottish state pensions - and those Scottish public sector pensions that are not funded ( eg All mil pensions) will also have to come out of Scottish taxation - a nightmare waiting to happen.

HF

[Willard Whyte]

Never mind Scotlandland, nowhere north of Old Father Thames is worth bothering with.

[Melchett01]

Never mind Scotlandland, nowhere north of Old Father Thames is worth bothering with.

You do realise there are nicer places than Peckham and Wandsworth? Then again, if we're dispensing with everything literally north of the Thames, then I guess we can say goodbye to the House of Commons :ok:

[racedo]

I prefer papua New Guinea.

Yes but Papuans are having a vote to split from the New Guineans.:E

[d88]

nocutstoRAF -

I was picking up on the point that Scotland is a net producer. I cannot find the statistics that have been alluded to by D88, but it does match my memory of things I have seen in the past

Statements I've made were based on the various GERS report, It's been a while since I've looked into this so I'll certainly stand corrected if new figures have been published this year, but i dare say it won't be far off the UK economic trend indicators if they are different. Essentially the unionist parties will use economic statistics for Scotland without, or reduced oil revenue and the SNP will use the statistics with a share of the oil included.

Scottish Government: . (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2010/06/23103654)

Hummingfrog -

My point is that there is no state pension pot - all state pensions are paid out of current taxation so from day one of independence all Scottish state pensions - and those Scottish public sector pensions that are not funded ( eg All mil pensions) will also have to come out of Scottish taxation - a nightmare waiting to happen.


I think you're basing your assumption on any money Scots have put in to N.I. contribution's (the theoretical basis for eligibility and paying pensions) would be wiped out and declared null and void, a situation I'd think would be unlikely as if that was the case I could see the London Supreme Court and European Courts being very busy with Scots demanding their Ni contributions back for when they were under UK (London) jurisdiction. A more likely scenario is that a settlement would be reached between London and Edinburgh.

As for military pensions, then I'd assume that as ex UK military Scots have seen service on behalf of the Crown and the UK, then that's purely a matter for the UK government to pay military pensions. There is already a precedent for Commonwealth and Gurkha service personnel receiving a pension from the UK for service to the Crown. For instance, retired UK Gurkha's receive a pension from the UK and not from the government of Nepal and I wouldn't see that situation being any different for any ex UK military Scot, especially if the British services still wanted to recruit Scots, which they probably would still want to do.

As for say any UK Civil Service pension then again it's the same scenario, if you're a retired Scottish (UK) Civil Servant who has given x amount of years service to the Crown and who has paid contributions into the UK scheme then why wouldn't their Civil Service pension not be paid from London ?

[HTB]

Thanks TTN

Re my medal/cross confusion: I thought it must be something along those lines - just not sure of where the changeover point was (especially nearly 100years ago).

Mister B

[John Botwood]

I found this in my archives from 1995 (it has seen publication in this forum before). It was from a dear old lady who had been well known in the Messes in the 50s.

The Latest From Gilly on 120
Dear Sir
You may possibly remember publishing my letter in the 14th edition (Retirement Special) of the Growler. Sadly: apart from Tumfy, I never heard from any of the boys from 120 Squadron. I never met dear Tumfy, he being a wee bit older than me, but my elder sister and her Aviemore knitting class speak highly and often of him. The ladies of Elgin fondly remember all those gallant and handsome lads that gave us such glorious memories to keep us warm in our later years.
I was delighted to find the latest edition of your publication in Dr. Symons waiting room in Elgin. My surprise was even greater on seeing that some of our heroes had revisited Kinloss last September. I suppose that it was too much to hope that they would have had time to meet with us to reminisce about the time in 1960 when Womans Day voted 120 Squadron the "Bravest and most Handsome Men in Britain".
Then, when I thought that there would be nothing more to surprise me, there on page eight was a cartoon telling the tale of the loss of Jacky - my poor wee green budgie. Contrary to the caption in the cartoon, the boys from 120 DID get airborne in horrendous conditions - they would do anything for Gilly in those days. Another spur was that their squadron crest looks so much like a poor wee green budgie, that honour required them to sally forth. Other Coastal squadrons refused to get airborne in the conditions that day.
But "Oor wee Lads" as we loved to call them, considered the 75 knot cross winds as light summer zephyrs. Despite having no visibility in the blizzards and with the clouds stretching from ground level to the ionosphere, they searched the Highlands. There were occasional near misses with cars and trains on some of those tricky bends in the Glens. In fact, one such incident in the Badanloch Forest was credited with sparking off the Home Rule for Scotland movement. They were very determined to return wee Jacky back to his loving mistress and vowed to continue until they did. Two crews had to be ordered back to base after being on task for only 37 hours. It was only a plea from Her Majesty herself that worked in the end. Despite all their constant endeavour and endurance, I never saw my wee green budgie again.
There was a report some three years later that he had been seen in Antigua, where he had acquired a lovely light tan colouring and moved in with two lorikeets and a bald Burmese cat. They had set up an illicit haggis still in the backroom of the local black pudding bar and were enjoying life to the full. Some say that it was the 120 Squadron Detachment to the Caribbean that caused Jacky to break out of his cage and fight the strong South westerlies for almost three months to be with oor wee lads and that once he had tasted the life that they led on tour, he never looked, let alone travelled, back. I expect that I will see more of your newsletters in the future as I have an appointment with dear Dr. Cruickshank the dentist in Forres next month. Speaking of Forres - I think that the cartoonist's depiction of the Forres’ lasses on page 18 was most unkind - some might think it true and accurate - but it was most unkind.
Yours truly
Agnes (Gilly) McGillick

JohnB

[PlasticCabDriver]

Avionker,

This is especially pertinent at the moment considering not one Conservative MP was returned from a seat in Scotland.

Not sure this chap would agree with you!:

David Mundell MP | Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale (http://www.davidmundell.com/)

[nocutstoRAF]

Statements I've made were based on the various GERS report, It's been a while since I've looked into this so I'll certainly stand corrected if new figures have been published this year, but i dare say it won't be far off the UK economic trend indicators if they are different. Essentially the unionist parties will use economic statistics for Scotland without, or reduced oil revenue and the SNP will use the statistics with a share of the oil included.

Thanks d88, I suppose the point I was trying to make is that while the Scottish have a legitimate complaint that they are getting less than they pay for and in effect subsidising the UK, this also appears to be true of England (based of the information I quoted), and that collectively Scotland and England are subsiding NI and Wales. So you can see why some English people get a tad annoyed (any annoyance I might feel towards the SNP stems from many years ago when I lived in Scotland and was dating a Scottish lass who friend was a prospective SNP party member who effectively told me that Scottish girls where off limits to me as I was English!)

[foldingwings]

Flame to the Fire!

A lot of folks can't understand how we came to have an oil shortage here in our country.
~~~
Well, there's a very simple answer.
~~~
Nobody bothered to check the oil.
~~~
We just didn't know we were getting low.
~~~
The reason for that is purely geographical.
~~~
Our OIL is located in:
Scotland The North Sea
~~~
Our dipsticks are located in Westminster

Foldie:}

[Wensleydale]

I was picking up on the point that Scotland is a net producer.


Yes, but the Scottish fishing industry is also in decline.....

[d88]

nocutstoRAF -

That's an interesting point and not one I've thought about but I suppose from a Scottish perspective it's not that we might or might not be subsidising any other part of the UK, it's the annoyance that for decades we were told by successive Westminster governments the Scottish economy was nothing more than an economic basket case when the reality is somewhat different. Successive governments in the 1970's even refused to allow publication of any report that showed Scotland was financially self sufficient.

McCrone report - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCrone_report)

As for the comments made to you, you get imbeciles no matter where you go unfortunately, Sam on this thread is typical of comments I'm getting more of when i travel south, so it can work both ways and I'm getting a little tired of being called a sponging Jock :ugh: But that's not an excuse for your own experience and certainly not one I'd condone and i'm sure the majority of Scots wouldn't either.

[glad rag]

So the tory pm has his arse handed to him at the most important EU summit in decades, shortly after breaking the hearts of his fellow English by denying them the right of a referendum on an already ratified treaty .
So they turn inwards, yet.again.

PMSL

[Hummingfrog]

D88

I think you're basing your assumption on any money Scots have put in to N.I. contribution's (the theoretical basis for eligibility and paying pensions) would be wiped out and declared null and void

I don't think you understand the way pensions are paid and funded. NI contributions don't go into a separate pot - they are included in the general taxation pot - NI is a good wheeze the politicians use to increase income tax while being able to deny they are increasing income tax.

So all the NI contributions being made now by the Scots are funding the state pensions of the Scots now taking a pension. This will carry on post independence so all Scottish state pensions will be paid out of Scottish taxation - there will be no pot due from the separation of Scotland from the UK.

The Service pension issue will be more complicated. The same method of payment is used for all present Service pensions - the taxpayer pays - again there is no pot to share. Post independence one could argue that Service pensioners living in Scotland - i.e. like me even though I am English by birth will be paid by the Scottish taxpayer as they are now. However it is not as simple as the state pension - which every body gets. You could argue that both the Scottish taxpayer and the remaining UK taxpayers should foot the Service pension bill as the distribution of pensioners may not reflect the split in population. This method of funding would only apply to pensioners who retire pre independence. Post independence the country whose Armed Forces you choose to remain with will pay your pension.

Any scheme you have paid into is different as there is a pot to share.

This is only one of the myriad problems facing the politicians who want independence and will have to be answered before the referendum.

HF

[nocutstoRAF]

Thanks d88 - you get idiots everywhere, I will admit to being embarrassed to call myself English at times.

I was surprised that people today in Scotland feel angry over the attitude of the UK government in the 70's re:

That's an interesting point and not one I've thought about but I suppose from a Scottish perspective it's not that we might or might not be subsidising any other part of the UK, it's the annoyance that for decades we were told by successive Westminster governments the Scottish economy was nothing more than an economic basket case when the reality is somewhat different

I cannot talk about other English people, but I do get a little bit annoyed that Alex Salmond paints the picture of independence being an easy and cheap undertaking for Scotland, and while I suspect he genuinely believes it, I think he analysis lacks rigour (for example he is convinced that a large section of the financial services industry in London will relocate to Edinburgh, I believe he said in one interview he thought about half of it would relocate) and that while the UK might still be thought of as a good place to live, dissolving the Union will in the long run harm all the countries in the union – I think financially each member of the union would be worse off, that our global geo-political power will wain and that twenty years from a yes on the referendum in Scotland we will all be reminiscing about the good old days of the UK.

Not that I live in Scotland anymore (and I am not sure how he would stop English people living in Scotland voting in the referendum), but if I did vote I would need a much more detailed plan than the one currently floating around to convince me that Scottish independence was a viable long term plan for Scotland – rather than a short term sticking plaster to address perceptions of inherent unfairness with Scotland’s relationship with Westminster.

[Hummingfrog]

nocutstoRAF

(and I am not sure how he would stop English people living in Scotland voting in the referendum

Everybody who is on the electoral roll in Scotland will be eligible to vote in the referendum, their country of birth will be irrelevant. It can't be any other way as there, at present. is no such thing as a Scottish citizen - we are all UK citizens.

When the SNP loose the referendum Salmond will blame the English born voters and in the tradition of the EU, when a vote doesn't go their way, will call for another referendum for only those who can prove they are 100% Scot - probably a very small number indeed:E

HF

[Airborne Aircrew]

probably a very small number indeed

Are you implying that 50% of the population have probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another? :E

[airpolice]

probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another?

I'm sure I know which bit you mean, but the 50% figure is a bit high given how rough some of the weegie womenfolk are.

[glad rag]

I'm sure I know which bit you mean, but the 50% figure is a bit high given how rough some of the weegie womenfolk are.

Not a problem when the "roles" were reversed in Nottingham, Lincoln, Newcastle, etc,etc :ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Are you implying that 50% of the population have probably had a bit of English in them at one time or another? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


Or indeed Irish. When I was a lad at a Catholic primary school in Glasgow the games/gangs etc were split on a Scots v Irish basis. There was huge Irish immigration to the West of Scotland in both world wars. Would Salmond regard their descendants (among whom I include myself) as Scots?

[Echo 5]

British by birth..............Scottish by the grace of God.:)

[The Old Fat One]

Our OIL is located in:
Scotland The North Sea
~~~
Our dipsticks are located in Westminster



:ok: best thing on this thread so far! (Very little competition to be honest)

[jamesdevice]

"There was huge Irish immigration to the West of Scotland in both world wars. Would Salmond regard their descendants (among whom I include myself) as Scots?"


If I remember history correctly, the Scotttii were an Irish group who moved into present Western Scotland as part of the Dal Riata in the 6th/7th centuries. In the process they assimilated / killed / exterminated the native Picts. Then the Norwegiian Vikings came along on the west coast and took over the leadership and probably dumped a lot of male genes into the population pool.... Of course the Vikings in turn were later ousted by / subsumed into the "English" (for which you can read Normans and their mercenaries) invades from the south
So you could regard the Irish movement into Scotland as being just a reprise of their earlier invasion and genocide of the Picts (without the slaughter)





The real BIG question though, is whose money is it? If Scotland go their own way, will they adopt their own currency? Or will they join the Euro? If they stay with sterling they would be at the financial mercy of the Bank of England

[Airborne Aircrew]

will they adopt their own currency?What would that be then, the Cheap, the Tight or the Deep Pocket?:E

[cazatou]

AA

It will be the Drachm - more commonly spelt "DRAM".

[Airborne Aircrew]

Caz:

Genius!!! :ok:

[NutLoose]

So, if they did get independence, would that make them Johnny Sporraners?


:p

[cazatou]

Would the Western Isles wish to be part of an independent Scotland or would they secede and seek Union with a Scandinavian Nation?

[Shack37]

Would the Western Isles wish to be part of an independent Scotland or would they secede and seek Union with a Scandinavian Nation?


Would they not be better forming a Union with the Isle of Man whilst the Northern Isles made an arrangement with Scandinavia?

[cazatou]

Shack 37

From my experiences of those Islands they are 4 wheel drive vehicle - and not motorcycle - enthusiasts.

[jamesdevice]

they'd be better off recreating the Dal Riata with Northern Ireland

[XR219]

Apparently, the Salmondistas are at last cobbling together an independence manifesto...

Bye, bye England? SNP plans closer Scandinavian ties after independence - UK Politics - UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bye-bye-england-snp-plans-closer-scandinavian-ties-after-independence-6272337.html)

Salmond is expected to demand 9% of all UK defence assets - presumably that doesn't include the SSBN fleet that he finds so repugnant. But 9% of bugger all is....?

So they think they can get their hands on a squadron's worth of P-3s for £29m a pop - that would be quite a bargain?

And they think the Royal Regiment of Scotland could be extracted from the British Army and form a new Scottish Army - hmmm, is someone confusing "army" with "infantry"?

[B Fraser]

Independence is inevitable when we have more pandas than Tory MP's.

The Scots and the Scandihooligans have a lot in common, a dry wit, respect for academia and the ability to scare the bejeezus out of any would-be aggressor. I think it would be a marriage made in heaven although I must confess to having started early by marrying a Baltic babe.

[500N]

"Salmond is expected to demand 9% of all UK defence assets"

Give him the Harriers instead of selling them to the US :O


Gets Salmond off everyone's back, give's him a current working platform,
Sharkey Ward will be happy and might trundle off to Scotland:O


And then sell them all the extra bits and pieces - spare parts, missiles,
bombs etc at hugely inflated prices.:ok:

[[email protected]]

Perhaps Alex Salmond should consider who it was who bailed out the Royal Bank of Scotland - managed by Scots, saved by the English!

[cornish-stormrider]

I think you will find that should have been Mis-managed....

[glad rag]

Yawn, thought this re-hash was going to be about the UK government funding our renewables program.

Thank you very much all the same.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTV-faj1hrj72lVwtJpQbyFeiPFTDNduGEukdD34Jfmk8shv599Fg

[Rj111]

To me it does not seem in Scotland's interest to create an unnecessary border between itself and it's biggest trade partner by far (England) with independent currencies, regulations and bureaucracy.

I also wonder how much it will costs to completely divide a highly integrated country which has existed for 300 years. As well as the costs to Scotland to set up and run all those new embassies, new DVLAs, etc etc.

By my calculations the increase in GDP by keeping it's own oil would be in the region of £1000 a year per head. Certainly not something one would turn down but not something that is going to turn Scotland into the Socialist Eutopia of Norway either.... And that oil isn't going to last forever.

All seems very simplistic and short sighted, which is the exact reason i'm terrified people will actually vote for it.

[cazatou]

500N

Too late - the Harriers have gone.

Perhaps, however, we could let Mr Salmond have WEBF as his Naval Advisor?

[John Blakeley]

Not much of a story really, but an interesting link to lack of Nimrods and Kinloss closure in today's Scotsman:

Russian ships in the Moray Firth ... and not a Nimrod in sight - Politics - Scotsman.com (http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/russian_ships_in_the_moray_firth_and_not_a_nimrod_in_sight_1 _2008621)

JB

[LFFC]

Cameron’s pre-emptive strike aims to torpedo plan for ‘joint armed forces’ (http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/arts-blog/tim_ripley_cameron_s_pre_emptive_strike_aims_to_torpedo_plan _for_joint_armed_forces_1_2045682)


THE war of words between Edinburgh and London over Prime Minister David Cameron’s bid to control the timing and wording of a referendum on independence brings to the fore the complex issue of future cross-border defence arrangements.

An important side-effect of Mr Cameron’s pre-emptive strike would be to torpedo the SNP’s proposal to allow Scotland to establish “joint armed forces” with the rump UK’s military.

By making the argument an all-or-nothing division between the status quo and total independence, Mr Cameron is clearly trying to undermine some of the “nuanced messages” the SNP has been developing to show how Scotland could establish a new defence relationship with London.

By limiting the question on the ballot paper to a simple Yes or No to independence, Mr Cameron is trying to remove the option of allowing the Edinburgh devolved administration to have de facto financial independence with the UK. This is the so-called “third question”. Under this constitutional arrangement, the UK armed forces would remain largely unchanged under the control of the London government and the defence issue would be largely neutralised.

However, in a straight Yes or No framed ballot, the issue of defence will be high on the agenda and the SNP would have to flesh out in greater detail their idea of a joint Scottish-UK military structure.

Over the next four years the Ministry of Defence will be finalising plans for the next generation of Royal Navy frigates and Mr Cameron will undoubtedly be dropping big hints that they will not be built in an independent Scotland.

Of course, an early referendum would also allow properly informed decisions to be made regarding the relocation of troops returning from Germany, not to mention allowing a clear-out of MPs from Westminster that wouldn't be needed. Overall, quite a masterstroke. Perhaps all ships currently being built in Scotland could become Scottish national assets that they could own and pay for; that might solve a few of MODs problems and balance any loss of oil revenue. :*

[Skeleton]

Salmond wants 9% of all British defence assets. Brilliant.

Whats he gonna do exactly with a Tucano and a single Typhoon!!

Give him the Harrier gets my vote. Spend millions giving deadloss pads etc. Then laugh as they realise it was a total waste of time and try to sell it back in Euros, sporrans or whatever coinage they decide to use.

[NutLoose]

Not bad for Cameron, Salmond has bleated on about independance for so long without seeming to want to push for it, and he is now being given the option for a yes or no vote and the push is coming the other way, personally i think a lot of the voters that put them into power were not for independance, but simply they did not want the Tories or Labour. I think an independance vote would show the true feelings off the Scotish people on this issue, and if they did vote no, where would that leave Salmond and his cronies. All this we need to inform the voters is a crock of s**t, they have 18 months to inform them.........

[Al R]

If it has been already said, apologies. But it seems to me, that this is a cast iron way for the Tories to stay in power at Westminster. By pressing the issue, DC is singing to the English Tory choir, he is dictating the pace to the SNP and he is seeking a sense of certainty for his budgets ahead.

[NutLoose]

And of course it will leave the likes of Brown without a seat.. not that he sits in it much these days.. :E

[Al R]

There will be a lot less Labour seats being filled at Westminster..

[Ken Scott]

Salmond wants 9% of all British defence assets.

And not forgetting Scotland's share of the approaching £1.4 trillion national debt, much of it run up by bailing out RBS, so that should be more than a 9% share then. Not forgetting that much of the £1.1 trillion increase since 1997 was under the stewardship of the one-eyed Scotsman himself.

[BEagle]

Whilst 'Incapability Brown' has a lot to answer for, I don't think that poking fun at his eye injury is very fair. He lost his eye playing rugby and has coped with monocular vision ever since - even if he was a lousy PM.

Let Scotland have sufficient independence so that Scots MPs are no longer able to influence decisions affecting England and Wales made in Westminster? I can see DC's point there!

[XR219]

With a bit of luck, the SNP will have split into republican and free-stater factions by 2014, so they'll be too busy fighting amongst themselves...:E

[sitigeltfel]

And of course it will leave the likes of Brown without a seat.. not that he sits in it much these days.. :E

Yes, even his constituency is fed up of his non-representation, and want him to go.

Gordon Brown Bullying Editors Again - Guy Fawkes' blog (http://order-order.com/2012/01/10/gordon-brown-bullying-editors-again/)

[LFFC]

UK defence cuts: Army in Scotland used as job-cut cannon fodder by MoD, say critics (http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/uk_defence_cuts_army_in_scotland_used_as_job_cut_cannon_fodd er_by_mod_say_critics_1_2061820)


A source told The Scotsman that many of the 2,900 army redundancies could be posts in Germany from units that were to be transferred to Scotland.

The briefing appears to confirm a comment made by armed forces minister Nick Harvey when answering a question from Sir Menzies Campbell before Christmas, where he suggested that the plans to move army units to Scotland was being looked at again.

So it's officially started. I think Scots have to wake up and realise the impact that Salmond and the nationalists are having right now! If they wait until 2014 to make a decision on independance, it will all be over and the damage will be done.

[500N]

Their was a good article in the DM or Telegraph the other day describing the possible sequence of events if Scotland declares independence. The scenario was not a pretty one.

I'll see if I can find it.

[NutLoose]

I'll see if I can find it.

Just north of Carlisle. :E

Sorry couldn't resist.

Like the way Salmond says Cameron can come to Scotland to discuss it, rather like he is calling a petulant child into the headmasters office to tell him off.

[500N]

Nutloose

:O:ok:


re the article, this was it

Scottish independence referendum: What if Scotland did go it alone? | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2086465/Scottish-independence-referendum-What-Scotland-did-alone.html)

A bankrupt economy, North Sea oil rights sold to China and Shetlanders defecting to Norway. What if Scotland DID go it alone?


By Andrew Roberts (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=&authornamef=Andrew+Roberts)

Leading historian Andrew Roberts predicts that an independent Scotland would soon be begging to be part of the UK again.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-2086465-0F66916500000578-455_233x423.jpg Alex Salmond: The SNP victory in the independence referendum of Tuesday, June 24, 2014 was impressive by any standards

The SNP victory in the independence referendum of Tuesday, June 24, 2014 was impressive by any standards.

Despite being held on the 700th anniversary of the battle of Bannockburn — where Scotland’s Robert the Bruce defeated the English forces under Edward II — few independent commentators thought that as many as 60.4 per cent of Scots would vote Yes to the question ‘Do you think Scotland should become independent and leave the United Kingdom?’
Only 38.4 per cent voted No.
The personal success this represented for Alex Salmond was acknowledged by British premier David Cameron with characteristic generosity: ‘Mr Salmond has won a famous victory, and now we in the UK thank the Scottish people for our three centuries of union with them. We wish Scotland well, and hope it has a bright future.’
Sadly, it was not to be.
The first problem the new Prime Minister of Scotland faced — ‘First Minister’ was dropped for being a ‘condescending English phrase’ — was the downgrading of the new Scottish currency, the groat, by the international markets.
Unlike the Union flag, which was quickly replaced by the blue and white of the saltire, Salmond had originally hoped to keep the pound sterling. But the British Chancellor George Osborne explained that all decisions concerning money supply would be taken solely with consideration for UK, not Scottish, interests.
Salmond’s hopes that the groat might enjoy parity with sterling, even perhaps ‘track it’ as sterling once did the deutschmark, were destroyed by speculators’ concerted attacks on it on the international stock exchanges.
The United Kingdom — which kept its name as it still united England, Wales and Ulster — had the Bank of England to step in and support the pound, buying enough sterling to deter such bullying tactics by the markets.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/14/article-2086465-0F73D71F00000578-756_468x313.jpg Could Orkney and the Shetland Islands declare their own independence in 2015 or might the islanders defect to Norway?


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-2086465-0F71B3AB00000578-310_468x286.jpg St Andrew's Cross: The blue in the Union flag would be lost forever if Scotland decided to become independent

But all the Salmond government could do was to raise interest rates, with its own disastrous effect on the rest of the economy.
Small wonder, then, that after Scotland lost its AAA credit rating from the agency Standard & Poor’s, it quickly looked to Brussels to help it out.
Yet it was to be bitterly disappointed. Under normal circumstances the European Union would have been delighted to have a new member state such as Scotland, especially a refugee state from the UK, but the economic circumstances of the summer of 2014 were not normal.

With Greece having left the eurozone, and Portugal and Italy still seen as economic basket cases, neither Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany nor President Francois Hollande of France (the Socialist elected to replace Nicolas Sarkozy two years earlier) wanted to take on another small country. Especially as the exact breakdown of national debt between Scotland and the rest of the UK had still not been finally ratified by either parliament.
Proportionately by population, Scotland was set to inherit £110 billion of Britain’s £1.4 trillion national debt, which would cost it £3.2 billion a year to service at 4 per cent interest.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/14/article-2086465-0F73D75300000578-446_468x286.jpg All alone: Perhaps an independent Scotland will face nerve-wracking moments over the price of oil in the North Sea

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-2086465-0E475AA900000578-212_233x423.jpg It was lucky for Scotland that Gordon Brown's Labour government had sunk more than £70 billion into Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS in October 2008, something an independent Scotland could never have afforded

But the World Bank and the IMF — asked to broker a deal on debt between London and Edinburgh — were profoundly split on whether population or economic performance should be the criterion.
The uncertainty meant EU membership for Scotland looked just too risky a proposition, so the Scots were put behind the Croats in the queue to join.
Before independence it was argued by SNP constitutional lawyers that Scotland would somehow automatically ‘inherit’ its place in the EU because they’d been a member when part of the United Kingdom. But that was not accepted by the powers in Brussels, and the six Scottish MEPs were expelled from the Strasbourg parliament on the same day 72 Scottish MPs said farewell to Westminster.
As it turned out, Scotland’s representation in other counsels of the world also suffered.
She was not admitted into Nato, as her aggressive de-nuclearisation programme and inability to meet the necessary spending requirements on defence disqualified her.
At the same time the UK began to recruit Englishmen, Welshmen and Ulstermen to fill gaps in the armed forces previously occupied by Scots.
Scotland was welcomed into the Commonwealth, of course, but found no place at the G7, G8 or G20, as she had while part of the United Kingdom. Her seat in the United Nations was also delayed for a long time by the Russians, who objected to their having a place when the Kurds, Palestinians, Tibetans and other ethnic groups did not.
When Alex Salmond pointed out that unlike them the Scots had a state of their own, President Putin merely shrugged and was overheard to make a racially offensive remark about haggis.
The inability to attain early EU membership meant passport controls were erected along the border between Scotland and England, as well as at the former domestic arrivals areas of Glasgow and Edinburgh airports.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-2086465-0F73A3A100000578-171_468x286.jpg Bravehearts: But would proud Scots regret a split from the Union?

A million Scots living and working in the UK and 400,000 Anglo-Scots living in England, as well as the half of the Scottish population with relatives in England, found it highly inconvenient.
It also meant taxes levied on ‘non-doms’ — rich foreigners working in the UK — included any Scot who earned enough.
And when it was realised there were now customs, immigration and money-changing issues attendant on visiting Scotland, the popularity of the independence movement really waned.
Especially when it led to millions of tourists opting for drier climes, which badly hit the tourist trade, Scotland’s second biggest foreign currency earner. In retrospect, the moment in June 2015 when the Orkney and Shetland Islands declared their own independence from Scotland, and their intention to become part of Norway, taking with them 23 per cent of Scotland’s North Sea Oil revenues, was the turning point.
The Edinburgh parliament, having done the same thing to Westminster the previous year, could not stop the referendum taking place, in which the Hebrideans voted by 71 per cent to leave Scotland the following March.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-2086465-0F5139EB00000578-124_233x423.jpg Queen Elizabeth kindly agrees to remain monarch of Scotland and continues her trips to Balmoral unaltered

As an autonomous region of Norway, the Hebrides soon turned out to be among the richest people per capita in the Northern Hemisphere.
Further talk about the Highlands splitting off from the Lowlands placed the Scottish Royal Family — the Queen had agreed to remain monarch of Scotland — in a difficult political dilemma.
Her Majesty the Queen did well to ignore it all by continuing her trips to Balmoral unaltered.
‘We had to put up with this kind of thing a lot with Quebec [and its attempts to secede from Canada] in the 1970s,’ she remarked to Alex Salmond at the Braemar Games, to his obvious irritation. Though foolhardy in the long-run, it was brave of Salmond to deliver on his pre-independence promises to increase spending on pensions and higher education, despite it plunging his new country further into the red.
With a population of 5.2 million and an economy worth just over £120 billion in 2016, Scotland faced a nerve-racking moment when the price of oil dropped to $45 a barrel as a result of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez’s death, Libyan oil production coming on-stream and Saudi Arabia increasing production after the fall of President Assad in Syria.
Always something of a single-product economy, the Scottish balance of payments was knocked wildly off course by these events, which the Scots could have taken in their stride if they were still part of a larger economic entity, as they had been for 300 years previously.
It was lucky for Scotland that Gordon Brown’s Labour government had sunk more than £70 billion into Royal Bank of Scotland and HBOS in October 2008, something an independent Scotland could never have afforded.
Taken together, the assets of those banks amounted to more than 13 times Scotland’s annual economic output by 2012. But when in 2014 George Osborne insisted on Scotland picking up its fair share of the £1.25 trillion of total liabilities taken on by the UK in rescuing the banking sector, Scotland’s balance sheet looked as rocky as the Highland mountains. Soon, the country found it needed more than rapidly-dwindling North Sea Oil to keep it afloat.


http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/01/13/article-0-0E34164C00000578-426_468x286.jpg PM George Osborne: After only four years of independence, in June 2018, Wendy Alexander made a momentous visit to Downing Street

Scottish oil production had peaked more than a decade and a half before, and significant further declines in production were forecast by most analysts.
The bleak picture moved Alex Salmond to take the greatest risk of his career in the autumn of 2016. He offered to sell 20 years of future oil production to the China National Offshore Oil Corporation, in return for it paying off Scotland’s entire national debt and being given a £82 billion sovereign wealth fund — and two more pandas for Edinburgh Zoo.
Yet for the Chinese deal to go through, Salmond needed the support of the Holyrood parliament in Edinburgh, but Scottish National Party members, as well as Labour and Lib-Dems MPs, opposed having the saltire flag dragged down from the oilrigs so soon after it had been raised over them, to be replaced by Beijing’s red flag.
The cry: ‘Better the Commies than the Sassenachs’ was heard from some Clydesdale members, but Scottish patriotism prevailed. When it was pointed out Scotland had no navy to enforce the agreement and Nato would not help, let alone the UK, Salmond argued he would appeal to the Council of Europe if Beijing misbehaved in the North Sea at the end of the deal.
Salmond’s defeat in the 2018 elections, and his replacement as Prime Minister of Scotland by Labour’s Wendy Alexander, the former MSP for Paisley North, was perhaps inevitable.
After only four years of independence, in June 2018, Wendy Alexander made a momentous visit to Downing Street, where she was greeted by the new British Prime Minister George Osborne.
‘You’ll know why I’ve come, George,’ said Mrs Alexander once inside. ‘I’m afraid I can’t begin to imagine,’ joked No 10’s new occupant. ‘Do enlighten me.’
‘It seems our forefathers knew more than we guessed when they united our countries for 300 years,’ replied Wendy Alexander somewhat grandiloquently.
‘Scotland would formally like to request re-admittance into the United Kingdom. Let us restore the blue to the Union Jack; let Scottish passports be consigned to the dustbin of history.’
Osborne looked at Mrs Alexander for a moment, considering hard the effects of another 5.2 million people on the books of the NHS and the huge increase in Britain’s welfare and benefits bill — let alone having an extra 41 Labour MPs sitting opposite him in the Commons.
He answered: ‘I would love to help you rejoin the Union, Mrs Alexander, but the British people — without Scotland — would have to vote for it in a referendum. At present they seem happy with the status quo…’

[Scuttled]

Hmmmm. It's a good story and could possibly form the basis of a good novel, but it is a little fanciful. Or is it just me?

[500N]

Scuttled

Which bits don't you agree with ?

Agree that some of it might be far fetched but a fair bit of it could happen that way.

[Scuttled]

500N

All possible of course. Many (most) things are possible. But it's all subjective, projective and other -ives isn't it?

I'm not Scottish or pro-Scottish, although my wife is a Scot.

But it is, to me, scaremongering in the worst Daily Mail fashion. And i'm not anti-Mail either, I read it.

It's a good story and possibly plausible, but lots of hole in lots of cheeses would have to line up for that particular scenario to play through to the conclusion given.

Don't you think? My opinion only.

[500N]

Scuttled
Yes, a lot of cheeses would have to line up for it all to happen, agree with that,
but even if only some did, it is still not a good scenario IMHO.

I asked the question as I was interested in your views on the whole thing.
I am a 1/4 Scottish as well !

I think Scotland would be financially worse off and Europe if it is in trouble might not bail them out ????

Not too sure about the Orkney's heading to Norway but don't know much about that so can't comment.

Interesting discussion anyway.

[Scuttled]

Agreed. The Orkneys bit is nonsense.

I'm absolutely not anti-Scottish. I've spent half my career there and intend settling there.

I think it is such a pity that there is an element, not small either, of the Scottish population which appears so anti-UK, anti-English, anti-Union.

We are so much stronger and so much better together in Union. History proves that, even if it is not politically correct to glory in our history in this day and age.

When my son was young, especially as a toddler, he was dressed for the rugby in a Scotland top and I in my England rig. He used to get a free coke and I got the abuse in our local club. It was banter and brilliant. That is the relationship I enjoy as an Englishman with the Scots.

I hate the nasty stuff on both sides but glory in the kind of banter I allude to above.

Glory in our differences, glory in the banter and glory in our shared greatness and history. We have no need to separate. We work well together and nobody, anywhere, can mistake one for the other. And it's really good, isn't it?

[sisemen]

Scottish independence? Great for songs by bearded radicals in folk clubs but as a practical proposition? Nah.


Oh, I was forgetting celebrity nutters like Sean Connery

[oggers]

Joan's Downfall - YouTube

[theredbarron]

That video of course actually became Tom Harris' downfall and deservedly so.

However, I do have to thank David Cameron from the bottom of my heart for interfering in the referendum issue. In the seven days immediately following his statement, over 1300 new members joined the SNP - a record number for such a short time, a 6% increase in membership, and every one of them a new canvasser on the streets for independence. Keep on talkin' Dave !

Incidentally, independence is absolutely nothing to do with any dislike of the English or of the citizens of any other country. It is all about pride in our own country and about a peoples' desire to govern themselves - a quite natural thing for any nation to aspire to.

I do understand the English antipathy about the whole thing though with your realisation that your annual budget deficit will go through the roof when you lose £12 billion of the North Sea oil revenues that we presently subsidise you with every year. You do realise too that you will lose your Trident base on the Clyde and that an independent England will, as a result of having no other suitable facilities, no longer be one of the world's great nuclear powers.

No wonder that in the complete absence of them being able to deliver sound pro-union arguments, unionist politicians are now panicing like mad and resorting to lies and scaremongering - they know the consequences to England only too well. Problem for them is that we Scots are now seeing through their lies.

PS the Royal Scottish Air Force will be recruiting from about 2016 onwards and we will definately be looking for MPA crews, amongst others. Watch this space.

[allan907]

It's posts like that that are a gift for comedy writers.

[Ken Scott]

It is all about pride in our own country and about a peoples' desire to govern themselves - a quite natural thing for any nation to aspire to.

See: previous Labour administration & the absense of an English Parliament following devolution.....

[cazatou]

In the interests of Equality should the English, Irish and Welsh have a vote at the same time as the Scots to decide whether we wish the Scots to remain in the United Kingdom?

[andyy]

Of course the Scots will have to take their share of the UK's national debt and pay for the construction and transfer of the N Sub Base to Falmouth.

I guess they'll want the Scots Guards & other Scottish Regts and may be a Friagte or two & a couple of squadrons of Typhoon etc. Fine, if they can afford it.

Personally, I'd rather we had a referendum on devolution for England. leave Westminster in charge of UK wide policy whilst Scotland, Wales, England & N Ireland looked after their own purely domestic issues. We'll have the English parliament in the centre, some where near Derby should be Ok. Should be able to slim down the Westminster and County Council machines but it will mean a whole new bunch of professional politicos at a national level. So be it.

[theredbarron]

All I tried to do was bring some basic truths into this but clearly some of you are not mature enough yet for that and still think the whole thing is some sort of joke. Sorry to disillusion you: this is for real - it is happening - it is almost certain that Scotland will become an independent nation again.

If I'm right then in less than three years time our political masters on both sides of the border are going to have to sit down and apportion out the UK's defence assets (and all other UK assets and liabilities for that matter) between Scotland and the new Union of England Wales and N. Ireland in a ratio of roughly 8.5% to 91.5%.

It would be nice to hear some of our serving officers contributing to that debate in a serious way. Defence planners here in Scotland are looking at these issues right now and perhaps some of them even peruse this forum. For example, what would best meet Scotland's Air Defence capability - is a single squadron of Typhoons viable or not? Should they perhaps operate with England in a unified air defence command a la Norad? What is the best option for an MPA and do you think it ought to have an ASW capability? How many needed? There are a lot questions needing answered, all the better by serving officers than politicians.

Contributions gentlemen please.

Edit for andyy: England will automatically take ownership of all defence installations there, Scotland will take ownership of all installations here. There would be no question of either paying to rebuld or move installations, certainly not of the scale of Coulport. I suspect through that the wiley old fox (aka Alex Salmond) will give England a good deal on the rent for ten years or so until you do build a replacement in the Thames Estuary but get bolshie and you're up the creek without a paddle (or missile for that matter!)

[Sandy Parts]

"defence planners here in Scotland" - coffee, keyboard -go! If it was likely - the referendum would have already happened the previous times it had been promised by the SNP!

[rab-k]

Having had three parliaments (that of England, Scotland and Ireland) reduce to two parliaments (that of Great Britain and Ireland) in 1707, then a single parliament (that of the United Kingdom), in 1801, I think we can thank the Irish for ending up where we are today.

The creation of the Government of Northern Ireland in 1922 meant that, for the following half-century, two administrations existed within the UK; something which had never happened previously. Only from 1972 to 1999 did a single entity exist in the form of the UK Parliament at Westminster; something which had been the norm between 1801 and 1922.

However, since 1999, the Northern Ireland Assembly, National Assembly for Wales and Scottish Parliament have left those in England feeling, rightly, disenfranchised. Perhaps a federal approach to government within the UK is the only means of preventing a system, blatantly unfair to those in England, from imminent collapse.

After all, recent polls have indicated a greater % of those in England are in favour of Scotland leaving the UK than remaining - surprisingly, the reverse being true in Scotland.

[theredbarron]

Sandy Parts - please do get your facts straight.. The SNP's previous attempt to hold the referendum was blocked by the unionist parties in the Scottish parliament when the SNP was a minority government. Nothing that they could have done about that - that's how democracy works. Now, knowing they can't block it in parliament as the SNP has an absolute majority, those same unionist parties are doing their best to put obstacles in the way. That's politics.

Rab-k your analysis is pretty well spot on. The bungled set up by Labour of the devolved administrations did leave England with the short straw and you guys are quite rightly aggrieved by non-English MPs voting on purely English issues. At least the SNP MPs, as a matter of policy, do not even attend debates on English matters, let alone vote on them.

[Seanthebrave]

RedBarron

Not gonna lie, I think the idea of Scotland taking any of the UK's current military capability with it, is a pipe dream! In any case, where on earth would it find the money to operate a military?

Also, there are streams of economists lining up to say that Scotland would be financially worse off...to the point that there would be a very high consensus, if the SNP weren't arguing the opposite. The latest figures I can find, from an official government website, say £6 billion a year in oil and gas revenue... not enough to plug the enormous budget deficit that exists in Scotland's budget, if it went solo (Even £12 billion wouldn't quite suffice); so paying down Scotland's projected national debt of 145% GDP seems difficult too, and even more difficult if it took on its share of RBS?HBOS liabilities.

Just as a thought, if you were the government that was humiliated by the dismantling of the union (The big event that they would be forever remembered for), would you want to help Scotland go easily, or make it as painful as possible?

[Sandy Parts]

hmmmm - SNP in (unopposed) power since May 2011 - plenty of time to get a referendum on the streets if that had been what they really wanted. Truth is that, being the clever politician that he is, Salmond knows that a straight yes/no vote will result in a defeat for him - hard to come back from that if that is the 'raison d'etre' for your party...

[theredbarron]

SeantheBrave. Official figures as contained in the most recent GERS report show total government expenditure in Scotland exceeding revenues from Scotland by around £9 billion, wihch number includes a demographic share of oil revenue (c£1 billion). An independent Scotland would however be entitled to its geographic share which is currently estimated at £11.7 billion, although that does fluctuate quite a bit year to year. That leaves Scotland with a nett surplus of about £1.7 billion per annum.

On the subject of defence spending, Scotland contributes about £2.9 billion of the UK's spend of £34 billion. Without the massive expense of SSNs and SSBN's, Type 45s, etc, i.e. with a defence forced scale down to our own needs and not those of a post-colonial would-be world peacekeeper, I suggest that £2.9 billion a year would buy a reasonable capability along the lines of Denmark, which spends just about the same amount.

[airpolice]

From the BBC News web****e.


RAF Lossiemouth was saved from closure under the cuts, but RAF Kinloss, in Fife, will shut as an air base and will be taken over by the Army.


BBC News - Alex Salmond details his plan for a Scottish Defence Force (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16636329)

[theredbarron]

Airpolice. Kinloss in Fife? Maybe we now know the truth; the Nimrods wern't scrapped at all, they just asked a policeman for directions and were never seen again !
PS Mr Airpolice, I know you only quoted the BBC but I couldnt let the chance go past!

I believe that the army are in the process of moving in there already. Does anyone any idea when Leuchars (which is in Fife) closes? The BoB airshow is confirmed on for this September so presumably still a flying station then.

Philip Hammond is of course indulging in just the sort of nonsense talk we up here have come to expect from Westminster politicians these days. Now that they have lost the economic argurment they resort to bullyboy tactics and they simply don't realise that in doing so they are acting as the best recruiting sergeants independence could ever wish for! This is just like Orborne and Darling last week who said that England might not let Scotland use the pound sterling, until reminded by Alex Salmond that Sterling was a convertible currency which meant that anyone anywhere in the world could use it. Michael Moore had to go on TV at the weekend and retract their claim. You'd think that the existing and most recent former Chancellor would have known better. They probably did but just expected us Scots not to and to be afraid, very afraid! .

[racedo]

I'm in favour of Scottish people having a vote on independence and deciding to ndo as the people wish without interference from anybody.

However its likely, given the vested interestsm that lots of manufactured scandals will occur by those whose financial interests wish to keep the Union in place.

[Pontius Navigator]

What about the Russian aircraft carrier in the Ukraine?

[Canadian Break]

The concept of Scottish Oil is interesting as its taken from outside the 12 mile limit; perhaps you should be worried that more and more oil from the North Sea is coming ashore here in Norway. Do the Shetlands and Hebrides get a vote on independence from Scotland? Will Scotland pay a proportion of the UK National Debt that exists - perhaps pro-rata with the defence assets they say they are entitled to? Absolute pipedream; the Scots voted in the SNP because they didn't want the Tories or Labour running the show - they've been able to eat their cake for too long and when they realise what Independence is, and will cost them, the answer will be (unfortunately) a firm NO.

[langleybaston]

"HTB - I'm steering clear of the whole Scotland - England argument but I'm happy to clear up the medal - cross thing for you.

In the time when the services had medals for the ORs and crosses for officers (pre 1993), the cut off came at Warrant Officer rank, or in the case of the army, Warrant Officer class 1. An RSM (or equivalent depending of the arm of service) was a WO1 and would be awarded the Military Cross, a Squadron Sergeant Major was a WO2 rank, and as such would qualify for the award of the Distinguished Conduct Medal or Military Medal. Same rules applied to the RAF, with a lot of WW2 aircrew winning the DFM as sergeants or flight sergeants and the the DFC as Warrant Officers".

Good attempt BUT the rules for award of MC do not/ did not specify the grade of army Warrant Officer, and as to whether a WO II received an MC or an MM was rather a lottery ......... the subject, particularly for the Great War, is far from straightforward.
As to English independence from Scotland, go for it. Should have happened in 1966.

[Biggus]

theredbarron,

First of all, before anything gets heated, this is not intended as a "dig" at you personally. Also, tone is difficult to read in postings on threads such as this. However, you appear to me to be delighting in the prospect of "winning" an independent Scotland from the English....

I just feel I should point out that, Messrs Cameron, Osborne and Miliband aside, the average man in the street in England probably does not care one way or the other as to whether Scotland is, or is not, independent....it's not a big issue.

In fact I seem to remember reading somewhere, in a mainstream newspaper, that if there was a referendum tomorrow, more (a higher % that is!) English would vote for separation from Scotland than Scots would vote for separation from England...

Make of that what you will!

[theredbarron]

Canadian Break.. Check your international law. Mineral rights extend out to 200 miles (or thereabouts, it depends on several factors). It's where the oil originates that matters as that is the country which will have granted exploration and production licenses.

I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense on the Hebrides and Shetlands.

Of course Scotland will take a share of the UK National Debt. Why wouldn't we? We're not in the business of threatening anybody - we want an amicable divorce without the rancour that the likes of Philip Hammond and George Osborne have tried to introduce in the last few days. Alex Salmond had said very clearly that Scotland would accept its 8.4% share of UK liabilites. By the same token we expect the 8.4% of the UK's assets that are rightly ours, including defence ones. All to be negotiated when the time comes.

[draken55]

Only one person I know, from all my close friends who like me live and work in Scotland, has any interest in being a citizen of an Independent Scotland. However, we all want a referendum to settle the matter once and for all. A simple Yes or No will do with no mucking about by either Salmond or Cameron.

On the question of the Northern Isles, do please note that they traditionally vote Liberal and have felt marginalised over the years by London, the Gaelic language lobby and in more recent years, the Edinburgh Parliament. Pop up to Kirkwall in Orkney and you will discover a growing desire to strengthen links with Norway and a natty new flag for the Island based on the Norwegian one. Shetland is thinking along the same lines. Don't forget that the oil comes ashore there at Sullum Voe.

This matter is in danger of becoming a bit like Independence for Quebec and Australia becoming a Republic. Issues that are resolved as nobody is willing to trust the voter in case they give a "wrong" result!

[theredbarron]

draken55. The last two opinion polls show 41 and 39% in favour of independence. Consider that the SNP went into the May 2011 election 14 points behind Labour and just 6 weeks later came away with an overall majority at Hollyrood. I would not bet a penny against their formidable election machine, aided and abetted by Cameron and Co's meddling and threats, and with over two years to do it, bringing in the extra 10 percent or so we need.

As for closer links with Norway: just what Alex Salmond has already proposed for an independent Scotland.

That's me on this thread, for tonight at least. Work to be done.

[XR219]

So according to that BBC story, Wee Eck is happy to keep Lossie as the sole air base in Scotland. Wouldn't be very convenient for basing the Presidential Eck Force One VIP transport though, would it? The Irish Air Corps only have one base too (didn't they used to have more?) but at least they had the sense to locate it just outside Dublin.

And he thinks the rest of the UK should foot the bill to keep his Scottish Free State nuclear-free.... now that's arrogance! :rolleyes:

[XR219]

I'm not even going to respond to your nonsense on the Hebrides and Shetlands.

Why is it nonsense? Once you start claiming that individual groups have a right to "stand on their own two feet", where does it stop? If Orkney & Shetland vote a resounding "no" in the referendum, why shouldn't they get what they want? Similarly, if the referendum result in the south of Scotland is significantly different to that in the north (and looking at the map of constituencies after the Scottish Parliament elections last year, that's not entirely unlikely), they why shouldn't they have the right to establish the Province of Southern Scotland to remain in the UK? If we're tearing up the last 300 years of history, why do we have to stick to a border that was set in the 11th century? It's a whole big can of worms Salmond is opening up.... :uhoh:

[Biggus]

I see that theredbarron gave my comment a good ignoring...!! :{:{:{

[Voroff]

As I come from the Hebrides the whole reverting to 11th century map works for me. The kingdom of Norway ( population about 5m) currently holds 1% of the worlds wealth in it's state pension plan, the other kingdom we are neighbour to has a massive debt, I think even the english must regret winning the battle of stamford bridge :)

[theredbarron]

Biggus no slight intended. strange that more English are in favour than Scots. I didnt realise that you wanted rid of us quite so much!!!

As for Orkney, the Borders etc voting against indpendence - this is not about parts or regions of a country, it is about the right of a NATION to self-determination. For unionists to embark on "divide and rule" tactics would show just how desperate they are becoming.

Now, I AM off to work.

[XR219]

As for Orkney, the Borders etc voting against indpendence - this is not about parts or regions of a country, it is about the right of a NATION to self-determination. For unionists to embark on "divide and rule" tactics would show just how desperate they are becoming.

Yes, but what is a "nation"? Isn't it just an arbitrary and sometimes fluid geo-political partitioning that is the result of many accidents of history? Scotland ceased to be a nation in the usual sense 300 years ago (except, of course, in certain contexts, sporting endeavours, etc.). You might still like to think of it as a nation, others may prefer to think of it as a constituent state of a greater union. Who's to say who's right?

And anyway, if you go back far enough you'll find the Kingdom of Scotland used to end at the Forth and Clyde. South of that were the lowland kingdoms of Strathclyde and Northumbria. If you want to turn the clock back to the 17th century, why stop there?

[COCL2]

As the majority of Northern Ireland's population is ethnically Scots, perhaps the two countries should form their own union and leave the UK together as one country?

[LFFC]

I’m fascinated to know just who would get to vote in the referendum. Would anyone living in the geographic area of Scotland get a vote, or only those who consider themselves as Scottish through birth? Who keeps records of such things?

If a person born in England, but living in Scotland at the time of the referendum gets to vote, and it’s held during the summer, then I guess that would rule in most of the Royal family.

Would a Scot living in England get to vote? Come to think of it, would a Scot living in England at the time of independence automatically become English?

Maybe a huge registration process will have to take place before any possible referendum. The mind boggles!

:uhoh:

[COCL2]

Or take my son as an example. His maternal grandfather was Scots, so presumably he could claim Scots nationality, despite never having been there.

[theredbarron]

The electoral register which both pro and anti propose for the referendum is that used for Scottish local government and parliamentary elections. Google it if you want the detail.

[althenick]

Of course Scotland will take a share of the UK National Debt.
Red Barron - From one Scot to another and talking about National responsibilty How much or many of the UK Dependencies & Overseas Territories should we also take on board?
Here pick some...

Anguilla
Bermuda
British Antarctic Territory
British Indian Ocean Territory
British Virgin Islands
Cayman Islands
Falkland Islands
Gibraltar
Montserrat
Pitcairn, Henderson, Ducie and Oeno Islands
St Helena and St Helena Dependencies (Ascension and Tristan da Cunha)
South Georgia and South Sandwich Islands
Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia
The Turks & Caicos Islands

The Jumped up little McNazi seems very keen to take the assets but judging by his attitude towards Faslavatory, et al he's not big on responisibility - which lets face it - most of the BRITISH Empire was built as a union. Perhaps we should remind him of this

Althenick
Scottish by Birth
British By Birthright
Proud of the Union's Acheivements
Ashamed of the Union's Attrocities
BUT IM STILL BRITSH


... And just in case your wondering - I Support Lossie FC not fcuking Rangers

[Self Loading Freight]

It's not entirely clear the Northern Isles are actually British anyway. They were mortgaged to Scotland by Denmark and Norway in 1468 and 1469 as the dowry for Margaret when she married James III, a mortgage that could be redeemed if the cash was later forthcoming.

The curious thing about the mortgage is that it had no time limit on the redemption, something that remained an active bone of contention for hundreds of years afterwards. James VI performed some fancy diplomatic footwork to avoid having to respond to an attempt to pay off the mortgage - it was never quite the right time, alas - and there were subsequent approaches. The last one I know about was King Frederick V in the mid 18th century.

Nobody's ever been able to produce proof that the Danes (who got the islands of the northern sea when they split with Norway) renounced that right, and the Danes certainly don't think they have.

There's still plenty of oil up there... (possibly a billion barrels under Yesnaby near Stromness) and who wouldn't want to have the jewel-like Saxa Vord? (Don't answer that.)

[Canadian Break]

Redbaron, whilst I do as you suggest, and read up on International Law on International v National Waters why don't you bone up on your geography?

[HTB]

This extract is from the website of the Royal Regiment of Scotland; I'm not sure of the date the figures were "valid", but certainly post-2006.

"It costs £17.5 Million per annum to maintain one UK Infantry Regiment.
Contrast that with the proposed expenditure on Technology by the UK Defence Procurement Agency.

JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER: £7-£10 Billion
ASTUTE Attack Submarine: £3,498 Million..."
The list goes on to make other cost comparisons (with equipment and sytems since scrapped, such as Nimrod).

Not specified how many battalions in a regiment; assuming the quoted cost makes no allowance for operational deployment (so they mooch around in barracks, or hone their skills for patrolling the English/Scottish border to keep out marauding envious foreigners).

Could an independent Scotland afford this luxury (and this does not touch on the vastly higher cost for high tech aviation kit: "TYPHOON: - 89 new Typhoon combat jet fighter aircraft : £4.3 Billion" at 2006 estimates; obviously pro rata for your 8.5%, so about £400 million).

Mister B

[Biggus]

Does there have to be any specific winning margin in a referendum on independence for the result to be valid?

For example, if the result was

50.0001% for and 49.9999% against would a "yes" result be declared, or does there have to be say a 5% clear winning majority? What sort of mandate would such a result provide?


If the result is really close, is there not a danger of resentments/divisions being created in the Scottish population, possibly ultimately resulting in civil unrest? Especially if independence is closely voted for but doesn't go well initially.



I'm just thinking out loud.....not making an arguement for any particular course of action!

[HTB]

And, Biggus, as with all "first past the post" votes, those percentages could be the result of, say 50% of those eligible casting a vote - in no way representative of the whole population (so 25.0001% could decide the fate of a nation) - before anyone gets all het up, this is only illustrative of the vagaries of the voting system.

Just another thought on the military/defence aspect - who would be expected to pay the pensions for any "defecting" personnel?:E

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

What is a Scot?

Is it an accident of birth and arbitrary legislation or is it where your familal roots are?

A first cousin had a Scots mother but settled in England. A second cousin's father married a Scot and settled in Scotland.

Until Genealogical research became so popular he always considered himself wholly Scottish but now realises his roots are deep seated south of the border in Cumbria.

My mother was born in India and I have feelings for India but I am half Irish and have been there only once.

In the three cases cited our fathers were all English for generations so our roots are indisputably English.

Unravelling the Scottish identity will not be easy.

[Pontius Navigator]

TRB,

One anomaly would be Service voters that may have left their votes in Scotland when they repatriated to England.

I voted in Scotland for 2-3 years as my English vote was not needed.

[HTB]

PN

You might need to go back a couple of thousand years to when the Romans displaced Britons and Celts, who in turn displaced Picts...who displaced...? Then chuck in the wandering scandinavians who settled the fringes and then infiltrated further inland. What indeed is the Scottish identity - probably about as muddled as the English one.

By the way, does anyone else get the feeling that Redbarron might be a Scottish relative of SAMXXV (albeit with better grammar and spelling)?:E

Mister B

[Pontius Navigator]

Mr HTB, quite right. On my paternal side we were definitely (maybe) English back to 1447 but have branches in all the former Dominiums including one bigamous marriage in South Africa :)

[Robert G Mugabe]

Give Scotland their own way.

Let them be liable for the debts of RBS.

Let them be liable for the debts of HBOS.

Let them have the assets of remaining oil in their territorial waters.

Let them fund their own social security ( The number of people claiming workless benefits in Scotland was approximately 481,600 in May 2011 of a population of 5.194 million thats over 9%)

Let them fund their own education ( plus of £4.0 billion per annum )

I am tired of hearing the jocks bleating on about independence let em go.

[langleybaston]

By the way, does anyone else get the feeling that Redbarron might be a Scottish relative of SAMXXV (albeit with better grammar and spelling)?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

Mister B

Yes, but still cannot spell e.g.

Barron

like calling me a metreologist!

[Pontius Navigator]

Just over a yard at a time.

[cazatou]

Will an independent Scotland have its own Currency or will it adopt the Euro? It will have to instigate its own Scottish Passport as it will no longer be part of the UK. It will also therefore have to instigate its own arrangements for Consular assistance to its Citizens abroad and will have to provide its own Embassy arrangements in other Countries.

[Whenurhappy]

Angus Roberston (SNP Defence Spokesman) is normally a sane character, but I do have to question his 'defence policy' consisting Mech Inf Bde that completely lacks any CSS. Perhaps the Scottish Army will forage, rape and pillage like its ancestors in order to support itself on the ground on UN missions.

No details yet on what the SNS will consist of, and he's too late for the SAF to have Nimrods!

[Rob Courtney]

I dont seem to remember much call for an indepenent Scotland before oil was discovered do you. Also I guess the SNS would have to be well equiped enough to protect the oil fields you cant do that with a couple of rowing boats and a catapult.

[Courtney Mil]

So there'll be lots of vacancies coming up with British Airways soon.

[millerscourt]

I seem to recall reading rightly or wrongly that the Oil taxes were worth £6 Billion and the UK subsidy to Scotland costs us £10 Billion.

Also it was not an English Banking crisis but a Scottish Banking crisis:hmm: Apart from Northern Rock which was a tiddler by comparison to RBS and HBOS.