Scottish Independence

[allan907]

Talking with a Scots mate in the Bush Fire Brigade this evening (who has not lived in Scotland for over 40 years) and he is totally fired up over nationalism and wants a vote to put his cross in the 'yes' box.

Would he be entitled? Is he relevant?

And if he is then is my wife's mother who, whilst born in Australia, was the daughter of an emigre Scot from Tongue not also entitled? Or, indeed, my wife herself?

Or maybe another mate who was my best man for my second wedding who is a Yorkshireman through and through but now lives near Lossiemouth?

I fear that a great abyss awaits and one should heed the warnings as the first step into the bog is taken.

[Jimlad1]

I've been blogging on this - Bagpipes, Bayonets, Bluster and Bugger all else?

As I cant' seem to post a link to a certain blogging website, if you go to my front page on ARRSE, click 'about me' and you can find a link there via my signature block. View Profile: jim30 - The Army Rumour Service (http://www.arrse.co.uk/member.php?u=11634)

[rab-k]

I've been blogging on this - Bagpipes, Bayonets, Bluster and Bugger all else?

As I cant' seem to post a link to a certain blogging website, if you go to my front page on ARRSE, click 'about me' and you can find a link there via my signature block. View Profile: jim30 - The Army Rumour Service (http://www.arrse.co.uk/member.php?u=11634)

Why would I want to read somebody's opinions on a blog when I can come here or go over to Jetblast and read similar ill-informed rants on the very same subject? :}

[Grumpy106]

May I suggest that most of us South of the border don't give a stuff about the Scots leaving the Union, especially if it means no more Scots MPs voting on English matters, no more £1600 per head subsidy for each Scot from our taxes and, most importantly, the many advocates of 'Bonny Scotland' in the military sodding off back up there to enjoy its many merits!

[langleybaston]

Amen. Amen.

[Biggus]

Grumpy106,

I refer you (and langleybaston) to post 219 on this thread.... :ok:

[Capot]

There's an epetition (or rather its been submitted for approval) on the Government petition website for a Referendum in England about leaving the United Kingdom.

Scotland is not a colony, it's a member of the UK, just like England. And England has exactly the same right to leave as Scotland. So let's forget about what the Scots want, and think instead about what the English want.

If England leaves the UK, the UK is no more, obviously. What the Scots then do is up to them, but the cash flow from Westminster stops, all English defence spending comes back to England etc etc.There's no more reason to sustain Scotland than there has been to sustain Ireland since its independence.

And, of course, if Scotland leaves the UK as the SNP is planning, they are unlikely to give a toss about what happens to England.

Wales could go independent as well, or unite with England IF the English consent to that in a referendum. I would for unity with Wales, but only on the strict understanding that the flow of English funds for Welsh extravagance ceases.

[Courtney Mil]

Jimlad1,

I found your thoughts in your blog very interesting and I think, for the most part, I concur. Or I woud if I were a bit more interested in the whole affair. Well written, anyway, even if some here disagree.

For the Scots here, I don't think you can transfer regiments, squadrons or ships' crews to a foreign force without all the people concened resigning and the officers revoking their Queen's commisions first. It could only be done on a volunteer AND nationality basis, so that makes the situation in your analysis even more complex.

If Mr Salmond thinks he can pick and choose what he wants from the sweet shop when Scotland deserts the Union, I suspect he might be in for a nasty surprise.

Who says that members of a foreign country will even be allowed to work here? And before you mention EU rules, Scotland isn't even a member, is it? I thought the UK was. I do hope they are let in when they are in a position to apply. Looking at, for example, the Czech Republic (I think the most recent or one of the most recent members) it took a fair number of years between signing up and full memebership. While Scotland is in that hole, let's hope the UK is generous enough to overlook some of the rules.

EDIT: Will the Free Scottish Nation be paying for the collection of all the UK Passports held by Scots and the deportation of all the new illegal immigrants or will that fall to the remaining UK tax payers?

[Canadian Break]

May I suggest that if the Scots truly want a "yes" vote for independence then they let the English vote as well! Otherwise it may be too close to call!:ok:CB

[oggers]

"The Stone of Destiny will, of course, be widened and strengthened for the event"

[Jimlad1]

""The Stone of Destiny will, of course, be widened and strengthened for the event" "

Will it be ceremonially deep fried at the end of the independence ceremony?

[racedo]

And, Biggus, as with all "first past the post" votes, those percentages could be the result of, say 50% of those eligible casting a vote - in no way representative of the whole population (so 25.0001% could decide the fate of a nation) - before anyone gets all het up, this is only illustrative of the vagaries of the voting system.


Ah more Tory gerrymadering like the Labour one in the 1970's.

[Fareastdriver]

Going back into recent history in 1979 there was a a referendum in Scotland on the 1978 Scotland Act. This act would have given Scotland much of the powers that it has now. The requirement then was that at least 40% of the TOTAL registered voters in Scotland had to agree to the Act to make it law. In the end around 60% of the voters voted and of those just over 51% voted for the Act. This did not met the 40% of the voting role requirement so Scottish self-rule went on the back burner for a decade.
The 40% rule meant that if you could not be bothered to vote then it was effectively a 'NO' vote; something a lot of people took advantage of. In theory if those people had got off their backsides and voted 'NO' then a majority in favour of the Act would not have been achieved.
Because of the way the then Labour government had organised it they lost the support of the few SNP MPs in Parliament and the Callaghan government fell; and was replaced by Maggie Thatcher.

[Geehovah]

Wow, didnt realise a vote in Scotland brought down the Callaghan Govt. I thought it was The Winter of Discontent!

[racedo]

UK Govt are going to be caught out if Scotland votes for Independence and they try and worm their way out of it or attempt qualification of it.

Can see many countries petitioning United Nations to get involved in ensuring that a fair vote occurs and that United Nations has monitors in place.......oh the ignominy of it as Scotland petitions UN to protect it.

I reckon that UK security services and their cohorts will be spending billions in trying to ensure there is a no vote and these guys will play it as normal.

[newt]

Could I suggest that what is going to give Herr Salmond a yes vote is complacency on the part of all those who believe the theory that only 38% of Scots want it!

That complacency will lead to a low turnout at the polls and the yes vote will win the day!! Especially if you allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote!!

[FlyingEagle21]

I am totally opposed to a potential break up of the United Kingdom, I do however believe the Scottish should be able to decide their own future.

Although a referendum on Scottish independence is sought. I also believe a UK wide referendum should take place as both acts of Union would have to be amended. Scottish Independence would technically mean English Independence as well. Surely the English have a say in that?

The reason being is that everything from National Debt, Government assets, armed forces and resources would have to be divided and would have a great effect on all sides and that is only the top of the iceberg.

JMO

[althenick]

FE21 - Totally concur - especially since the Union was forged by a Scottish King - Something that the the Hard-line "Patriots" Forget up here.

[ORAC]

Salmond's not daft.

There will be two papers:

Paper One.: Independence- yes or no?

Paper Two: Devolution max- yes or no?
he can't, he doesn't have the constitutional power to call for such a referendum. If he tries all it takes is for someone to get a judge to stop him spending money illegally.

[rab-k]

FE21 - Totally concur - especially since the Union was forged by a Scottish King - Something that the the Hard-line "Patriots" Forget up here.Someone's been taking their history lessons from the pages of the Daily Record. The only reason James VI got the job down south was because Queen Bess wouldn't 'put out'; thereby leaving no Tudors in her wake. All James can be credited with is being the first backside to occupy all three thrones of these isles, for having a bible printed in a language the common people (in England) could just about understand, and for instructing his Heralds to create an Anglo-Scots flag; the design of which being so popular in Scotland that his most loyal Subjects came up with their own alternative...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Scottish_Union_Flag_-_detail.JPG/220px-Scottish_Union_Flag_-_detail.JPG

Regal union wasn't a new concept either. That claim belongs to Edward I; who almost succeeded.

Contrary to what you've apparently read in the Record, political union wasn't down to James, but to his great-granddaughter Anne, the last Stuart monarch, and she, unlike her continental-based Stuart cousins, didn't even bother to get her fat backside up the Great North Road to set foot in the Kingdom of Scotland; either side of 1707.

All that aside, I'll look forward to the current Queen taking the opportunity, when she addresses the UK Parliament in a few short weeks, to say how those in Scotland would be ill-served by voting for independence. Whilst respecting the individual, if not the institution, I'm afraid M'am that this particular Subject will likely disagree.

[baffman]

All that aside, I'll look forward to the current Queen taking the opportunity, when she addresses the UK Parliament in a few short weeks, to say how those in Scotland would be ill-served by voting for independence.

rab-k, I would have thought it most unlikely that she would say any such thing, regardless (as usual when acting in a constitutional capacity) of her own opinions on the matter.

[althenick]

Someone's been taking their history lessons from the pages of the Daily Record.

No I dont - Prmarily because the crossword is crap but however I did read this quite some time ago

Union of the Crowns - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_of_the_Crowns)

Ok its wiki but more informative than the Daily Social Diatribe :ok:

[rab-k]

rab-k, I would have thought it most unlikely that she would say any such thing, regardless (as usual when acting in a constitutional capacity) of her own opinions on the matter.

Really? Didn't stop her dipping a regal toe into the Devo' debate back in '77:

The problems of progress, the complexities of modern administration, the feeling that Metropolitan Government is too remote from the lives of ordinary men and women, these among other things have helped to revive an awareness of historic national identities in these Islands.

They provide the background for the continuing and keen discussion of proposals for devolution to Scotland and Wales within the United Kingdom. I number Kings and Queens of England and of Scotland, and Princes of Wales among my ancestors and so I can readily understand these aspirations.

But I cannot forget that I was crowned Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Perhaps this Jubilee is a time to remind ourselves of the benefits which union has conferred, at home and in our international dealings, on the inhabitants of all parts of this United Kingdom.

Althenick-
I thought it was the demise of the politcal union we were discussing, not the regal union. All that might change in that respect is that HMQ would be known here as Elizabeth, Queen of Scots. (A term already used by the then Sir David, now Lord, Steel to address Her Majesty, in person, at the 1999 opening of the Scottish Parliament).

[Self Loading Freight]

HMQ would probably be known as Elizabeth the Second and First, much as James was the Sixth and First. There are those who say she should have been anyway.

But what of the British coat of arms? And will the Scots keep their unicorn? And will we reinstate that verse with Marshal Wade to the National Anthem?

It's all very worrying. We should get some brand experts in from Hoxton.

[rab-k]

Can't see these changing any...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28Both_Realms%29.s vg/500px-Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom_%28Both_Realms%29.s vg.png

They each had pre-1707 versions so I can't see them requiring to be altered so long as HMQ remains Head of State in Scotland.

[aw ditor]

Did not "Shorts" produce an aircraft called the (Nicola) Sturgeon?

[Harley Quinn]

From the Wiki on the Sturgeon:

Through shifting priorities postwar, the Sturgeon was redesigned first into a target tug and then later as a prototype anti-submarine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-submarine_warfare) aircraft. The many modifications that resulted turned the promising design into a hapless and grotesque-looking hybrid.From this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/25/Short_Sturgeon.jpg

to this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c0/Sturgeon_SB3.jpg

I expect Nicola will prove rather more adaptable; she's a clever political performer.

[cazatou]

What Currency would an independent Scotland use? The value of the Pound Sterling depends on the Policies of the Parliament in London.

[Wingswinger]

Contrary to what you've apparently read in the Record, political union wasn't down to James, but to his great-granddaughter Anne, the last Stuart monarch, and she, unlike her continental-based Stuart cousins, didn't even bother to get her fat backside up the Great North Road to set foot in the Kingdom of Scotland; either side of 1707.


True but the political union was a Stuart ambition from the moment James I an IV climbed onto the throne of England. It just took 104 years to achieve.

[taxydual]

Caz,

obvious really. The Pound Stirling. :ok:



OK, hat, coat etc

[Fareastdriver]

What Currency would an independent Scotland use

Could be interesting. It has already been discussed here why they cannot go straight into the Eurozone so they would have to stay with the Scottish Pound. It was in existence before the Union so it is traditional. The problem comes as to who issues it.
At the moment there are three Scottish banks that issue notes, effectively promissary notes, that are not legal tender anywhere, not even in Scotland. The three are the Royal Bank of Scotland, 84% owned by the British government. The Bank of Scotland; merged with the Halifax Bank and then taken over by LLoyds Banking Group, both English; and the Clydesdale Bank, owned by the National Australia Bank, obviously Australian. The Scottish offices that issue these banknotes have to base it on something and all Scottish notes have printed on them:

promise to pay the bearer on demand (Five/Ten etc) Pounds Sterling at their office.

So Scottish notes are tied to the GB Pound. How do you use a currency that belongs to another country using banks that are owned by other countries. To issue its own would mean that the Scottish pound, whatever it is called, will have to float on the market. Should it fluctuate against its nearest and only neighbour that can bring all sorts of problems from attracting investment to doing the weekly shopping.

Interesting times if it happens.

[XA290]

Separating Scotland from the rest of the UK will cost a staggering amount of money when you consider all aspects that will have to be created or taken on by the new Scottish state. A considerable amount of duplication will have to be paid for. Yet the western world is near to bankruptcy; Europe (or more accurately – the Euro) is bankrupt and the UK (as it stands at the moment) is in dire straits financially. Both Scottish banks HBOS and RBS had to be bailed out by the UK tax payer at vast expense and show no real signs of sustained recovery.

So, my question is this; are we really prepared to pour staggering quantities of money that we don’t have down the political drain for a ideological solution to a problem that isn't there.?

It would seem that the SNP think we should :ugh:

[LFFC]

It looks like Scottish acceptance into the EU is something that will not be encouraged.

Spain could wield veto over Scotland's EU membership (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/spain-could-wield-veto-over-scotlands-eu-membership-6292846.html)

Spain is standing in the way of Scotland's ambitions to become an independent nation within the European Union because of fears that it could spark the break-up of the Spanish state.

So it looks like Scotland really would have to go its own way. I would imagine that Gibraltar is at the forefront of Spanish thinking as well.

[XR219]

Separating Scotland from the rest of the UK will cost a staggering amount of money when you consider all aspects that will have to be created or taken on by the new Scottish state. A considerable amount of duplication will have to be paid for. Yet the western world is near to bankruptcy; Europe (or more accurately – the Euro) is bankrupt and the UK (as it stands at the moment) is in dire straits financially. Both Scottish banks HBOS and RBS had to be bailed out by the UK tax payer at vast expense and show no real signs of sustained recovery.

So, my question is this; are we really prepared to pour staggering quantities of money that we don’t have down the political drain for a ideological solution to a problem that isn't there.?

It would seem that the SNP think we should

My thoughts exactly. Unless what Salmond really wants is the trappings of power without all the tedious, expensive bureaucracies that are required by a modern sovereign independent state, then the vast amounts of time, effort and money required to duplicate all the existing UK national infrastructure that isn't already devolved is something that nobody can afford right now.

[cazatou]

taxy dual

That would be a "Quid Pro Quo" then?:ok:

PS The Country of Scotland has two World Class Soccer Teams - the City of Manchester has two as well!!

[rab-k]

PS The Country of Scotland has two World Class Soccer Teams - the City of Manchester has two as well!!WTF?

Is that the very best you can do?

Pop'n Glasgow = 592,820
Pop'n manchester= 498,800

Pop'n England = 51,446,000
Pop'n Scotland = 5,222,100

English cities w/pop'n >0.4 million = 8
Scottish " " " " " " = 2

And your point caza2?

18 currencies are presently used within currency unions. No reason whatsoever why the Pound Scots couldn't be pegged to the Pound Sterling, or the Euro, or the Dollar, or whatever.

Spain is playing to the benefit of the home audience.

Two Sovereign States ("A" & "B") enter into a treaty of union to create a single Sovereign State. ("C").

"C" enters into a treaty of union with a gouping of sovereign states ("Z").

Whilst a member of "Z", "C" repeals its founding treaty of union and reverts to "A" and "B".

Under such circumstances, any and all treaties undertaken by "C" in respect of "Z" apply equally to "A" and "B".

If a member of "Z" desires to exclude "A" from "Z", then the basis for exclusion applies equally to "B".

The Euro-sceptics must be ecstatic; Spain's efforts to keep an Independent Scotland from joining the EU could see the remainder of the UK similarly kept out. I can see Bill Cash joining the SNP, oh, sometime next week.

[cazatou]

rab-k

It's called banter - defined as "to assail with good-humoured raillery". You appear to have little (if any) sense of humour.:=

[rab-k]

Ahhh, I see...

Sometimes "banter" in this place would qualify as "bile" elsewhere. As such, it is often easy to confuse the two.

My wife often says I have a "warped" sense of humour; but then what would she know, she's English. :ouch:

[TurbineTooHot]

Rab, by your reckoning then, your last comment was racist bile. Don't go thinking you can have it both ways. I fear this is the trap that a clutch of Scots have fallen into, the ABE brigade, who see any criticism as racist and oppressive, but are happy to
paint everyone south of the border as rabid imperialists raping their fair land. Hypocrisy that knows no bounds I'm afraid.

Be careful what you wish for in the coming years. The law of Unintended Consequences has a nasty habit of catching out idealists......

[rab-k]

Rab, by your reckoning then, your last comment was racist bile.

You demonstrated my point nicely in as much as the distinction is drawn by those who read, rather than by those who post.

If we're having a political/economic discussion then perhaps we should avoid any confusion and stick to precisely that; leaving the "banter" for the pub/Jetblast.

[Fareastdriver]

I would have thought that this thread should have been on Jet Blast anyway. I fail to see why it is on the Military Forum. The first couple of posts had a military twang but after that is it is pure politics.

[LFFC]

Fareastdriver,

It's got plenty to do with the military. If it keeps you happy, here's the latest offering from the press:

Former Army officers ridicule SNP plans to transfer famous regiments into 'Alex Salmond's home guard' (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9030964/Former-Army-officers-ridicule-SNP-plans-to-transfer-famous-regiments-into-Alex-Salmonds-home-guard.html)

Maj Sir Malcolm MacGregor of MacGregor, a former Scots Guards officer and former chief of staff of the Territorial Army in Perth, said it was pie in the sky to say regiments that were part of a much bigger operational force could be cherry picked.

He added: "There is no reason why the soldiers in the Scots Guards shouldn't say, we are based in Yorkshire and we don't actually want to go and live in Scotland and guard oil rigs, we want to be part of a proper army with a history and a reputation that is second to none."

The real danger is, of course, which regiments the goverment will now cast their eyes over when they look at disbanding more over the next couple of years. I fear that Salmond has given Scottish regiments the kiss of death. :{

[Pontius Navigator]

You demonstrated my point nicely in as much as the distinction is drawn by those who read, rather than by those who post.

But that is the whole basis for our racial equality laws.

It is based on what I think you meant and not on what you thought you meant.

One should also avoid emotive comment. Bile and rabid may be considered by many to be emotive.

Read cazatou's comment, simple explanatory comment without resort to emotion.

One might think you are typical of a particular son of the manse but it would be emotive to call you as such.

[racedo]

The value of the Pound Sterling depends on the Policies of the Parliament in London.

Wrong place ..............you mean City of London

[LFFC]

Another interesting decision coming up soon:

British arms maker 'mulling closure of historic dockyard' (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/british-arms-maker-mulling-closure-historic-dockyard-054604048.html)

British arms manufacturer BAE Systems said it was reviewing its warship business but refused to comment on a newspaper report that it was set to close the historic Portsmouth dockyard.
.
.
It has yards on the Clyde in Scotland, at Scotstoun and Govan, and at Portsmouth.
.
.
A company spokeswoman said: "As part of our business planning activity, we are reviewing how best to retain the capability to deliver and support complex warships in the UK in the future. [my bold]

Faced with the possibility of Scottish independance, I wouldn't put too much money on Portsmouth closing.

[500N]

Since Clyde has come up again, if the UK Gov't decided to move all military activity from Clyde to somewhere in the UK, where would they locate it ?

As someone said above, it seems to me that anything based in Scotland is likely to not have money put into it until this whole issue is put to bed.

[airpolice]

This is but one small can of worms in the Scottish Independence kitchen.

The yards are owned by the business groups within BAE and run for the contracts supporting the MOD, but the bases are owned by the MOD and run for them by BAE.

Should the Government make the MOD assign the bases to the Vietjock Armed Forces, there is no legal authority that can make the Peoples Democratic Republic of Jockistan take on BAE as managers.

This leaves the MOD open to all sorts of compensation claims from BAE.

Wee Eck may of course want to keep the Clyde naval facilities open for business (not just Scottish business) and provide the (English) MOD with a cost effective solution that beats opening Portsmouth.

All of this debate over affording the armed forces is based on the old fashioned idea of what Scotland needs. I would have thought that the MRA and Harrier Force destruction was a clear signal that times have changed.

The world still turns.

[Economics101]

LFFC (#285 above): The reason Spain may want to veto Scottich EU membership has more to do with clipping the wings of the Catalans and the Basques than it has to do with Gibraltar (in my opinion). There may be other member states who might also want to curb the ambitions of breakaway regions.

Imagine an EU of 60 members !

[rab-k]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/dynamic/00600/110_QUE_2_600855t.jpg

It is within living memory that in times past this chap might have been handing a wreath to his Colonel-in-Chief.

Amazing what can happen if people put their minds to it; despite the suggestions of others.

Elizabeth, as Queen of Scots, would continue to receive the Oath of Allegiance from any Scottish Defence Forces personnel; although the reference to "the Second" in her title would probably be dropped.

[sisemen]

Imagine an EU of 60 members ! And all of them with the vast financial clout of members like Ireland, Portugal, Estonia.....etc etc

[500N]

Even less would get decided / done and those things were decided
would be by the few (ie Germany) and dictated to the rest.

.

[althenick]

LFFC (#285 above): The reason Spain may want to veto Scottich EU membership has more to do with clipping the wings of the Catalans and the Basques than it has to do with Gibraltar (in my opinion). There may be other member states who might also want to curb the ambitions of breakaway regions.

Who gives a **** what Spains motives are for Vetoing Scotlands Membership to the European anathema. If it means scotland is out of Europe I'd vote for inependence tomorrow.

[aw ditor]

Aye, you'll have had your tea?

[cazatou]

Well, it looks as if there will be a lot of Property here in France (and other EU Countries) on the Market at bargain prices as Scots resident in the EU will lose the right of abode in the EU if their native Country secedes from the Union.

[rab-k]

For those who didn't catch it first time 'round...

Two Sovereign States ("A" & "B") enter into a treaty of union to create a single Sovereign State. ("C").

"C" enters into a treaty of union with a grouping of sovereign states ("Z").

Whilst a member of "Z", "C" repeals its founding treaty of union and reverts to "A" and "B".

Under such circumstances, any and all treaties undertaken by "C" in respect of "Z" apply equally to "A" and "B".

If a member of "Z" desires to exclude "A" from "Z", then the basis for exclusion applies equally to "B".As "successor states", as opposed to "new member states", "A" & "B" would only require a majority of the 27(8) to approve continued EU membership in their revised constitutional form. No single member, e.g. Spain, would have a veto.

So don't go rushing down to the immobiliers just yet expecting to find a bargain or three.

Scots resident in the EU will lose the right of abode in the EU if their native Country secedes from the UnionThe "Union" as per the above scenario would be of the European, rather than British, variety.

[NutLoose]

It would be a whole lot simpler if we just expanded the original WW2 Anthrax trials to the rest of the Country. :E


Still think he is playing call my bluff, after all if they did go through with it, I think they would soon regret their independence.

[ORAC]

As "successor states", as opposed to "new member states", "A" & "B" would only require a majority of the 27(8) to approve continued EU membership in their revised constitutional form. No single member, e.g. Spain, would have a veto. That would seem to be open to debate. Paper from 2001 by the The Esme'e Fairbairn Charitable Trust.

Scotland's Place in Europe (http://www.ucl.ac.uk/spp/publications/unit-publications/68.pdf)

Conclusions:

a The Vienna Convention on State Succession in Respect of Treaties was drawn up against a colonial background and lays down the rules relating to newly independent States (which are given a clean slate) and other successor States (which are presumed to succeed automatically to the treaty heritage of their predecessors), which do not accurately reflect customary law and have not proved generally acceptable.

There is no automatic right to membership of the European Union. State succession to treaties has to be governed by the nature of the treaty. Continued cover by the EU Treaty of the Scottish territory would thus only be possible with the approval of all Member States.

Realistically, Scotland can expect - more or less automatically - negotiations for EU membership to begin before independence is gained. In the event that the negotiations are not completed at the date of independence there would probably be a continuation of the imposition of the acquis on an agreed basis until negotiations are completed and all sides ratify the agreement.

Should all negotiations fail, Community regulations and directives would continue to apply in Scotland as they are part of Scots law by virtue of the European Communities Act 1972 as amended. Scottish nationals and companies would, however, lose EU rights elsewhere in Europe (including UK).

However, Scotland would be under no legal obligation to adopt any future EC legislation or follow any decisions of the ECJ. Moreover, the provisions of the EU Treaty would cease to be binding on Scotland and its citizens.

[rab-k]

It would be a whole lot simpler if we just expanded the original WW2 Anthrax trials to the rest of the Country. :E More "banter"? I suppose the ":E" makes it so.

Would such be acceptable if, for example, it were people in Israel, rather than Scotland, being discussed? Even with the benefit of a ":E" thrown in? I wonder...

[rab-k]

The paper from The Esme'e Fairbairn Charitable Trust is just that, a discussion paper, it is not therefore the law but one possible interpretation of it.

The Vienna Convention on State Succession in Respect of Treaties is a UN convention, not that of the EU, whose opening line states: "Considering the profound transformation of the international community brought about by the decolonization process".

I'm no expert on international law, but that statement doesn't quite fit the British model of former sovereign states who, having entered into a political union via treaties enacted by each other's legislature in order to create a single sovereign state, enact further legislation to dissolve that single state and revert instead to two.

[NutLoose]

Just trying to get the point across I think Salmond is playing a bluff to get greater power out of it, I do not think the Scotish people for one minute would go for total independence, if they turned it down, I cannot see the point of running 3 assemblies if they are not independent.. I would bring all those that declined to go it alone back to parliament....with the the costs involved running x3 assemblies, something previously done by 1 parliament, the savings in this cash strapped country would be staggering.. the one thing that hasn't seemed to diminish is the Government duplication.

[BEagle]

Well, they're just about to have that annual farce of mumbling gibberish to a sheep's stomach stuffed with offal,oatmeal and onions whilst getting even more drunk than usual, so will probably have forgotten all about this daft independence idea by the time they've recovered from their hangovers!

Have they come up with a deep-fried haggis yet?

[airpolice]

Beagle, remember that the main difference between the Scottish and English cultures is Oats.

The Scots have it for Breakfast and the English feed it to their horses.

[SunderlandMatt]

Can't wait for the vote. It'll be so nice to see them come to the conclusion that they need us more than we need them.

How much will it cost them to set up their Army, Navy, Air Force?!

Only sad thing is the Union Flag will have to change. Only just got the hang of which way was up!

SM.

[rab-k]

How much will it cost them to set up their Army, Navy, Air Force?!Depends if we wish to continue being dragged to the dry, brown corners of the globe on the coat-tails of Uncle Sam.

Only sad thing is the Union Flag will have to change. Only just got the hang of which way was up!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Flag_of_United_Kingdom_of_England_and_Northern_Ireland.svg/200px-Flag_of_United_Kingdom_of_England_and_Northern_Ireland.svg.p ng

No difficulties there as to which way up.

[NutLoose]

Cannot see any reason to remove the blue, after all it is historically the UK's flag and no doubt Cameron could argue that with his "special relationship" it is for the other country in the marriage.... France.

where would one stop, remove the blue from the roundels and tail flashes?

[teeteringhead]

Have they come up with a deep-fried haggis yet? ... the answer BEags I almost fear to say is yes.

One saw it once in a chippy in Troon - did not sample it though. (Which probably explains why I'm still alive).

[fao rab-k - this too is banter]

[Rob Courtney]

Depends if we wish to continue being dragged to the dry, brown corners of the globe on the coat-tails of Uncle Sam.

Also depends on how much you want to protect that oil! most of its a long way off dry land and a punt armed with a catapult isnt going to be of much use

[LFFC]

ORAC - State Succession. However, Scotland would be under no legal obligation to adopt any future EC legislation or follow any decisions of the ECJ. Moreover, the provisions of the EU Treaty would cease to be binding on Scotland and its citizens.

Maybe England should succeed from the UK, then fail in negotiation to stay part of the EU! :E

[Courtney Mil]

Or...

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/images/flags_and_emblems/England.jpg

For now, why not stop foot stamping at the worst possible time (except, amybe, for party gain) and be...

http://www.projectoceanvision.com/images/flags_and_emblems/britain.jpg

Ride out the storm and then happy to see you go, if that's what you want.

[Echo 5]

Beags,

Have they come up with a deep-fried haggis yet?

Of course we have, along with white pudding and black pudding, and that was long before some twonk decided to deep fry a Mars bar. ;)

[Courtney Mil]

We had haggis and all that stuff on the day. Very good! Stick to what you know! :ok:

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Have they come up with a deep-fried haggis yet?
... the answer BEags I almost fear to say is yes.

One saw it once in a chippy in Troon - did not sample it though. (Which probably explains why I'm still alive).

[fao rab-k - this too is banter]


It does not qualify without a :E

[BEagle]

Of course we have, along with white pudding and black pudding, and that was long before some twonk decided to deep fry a Mars bar.

Good grief, how truly appalling. But that would perhaps explain the sylph-like Salmond:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/FatAlex.jpg

"Deep-fried haggis - yum, yum. GET IN MAH BELLY!"

[chopabeefer]

I am really torn on this one - conflicting emotions and memories good and bad. Took a wrong turn once, looking for the passport office in Glasgow. It made Kinshasa look like Midsomer Norton. Vile people sitting in doorsteps, pissed, and a truly disgusting few hours.

But.

But. But. But. I also did a Det to Plockton many years ago. Flew around the Western Highlands for a week, and got rather un-sober in the Kyle of Lochalsh. Breathtaking beauty, crystal clear sea and golden sandy beaches. Friendly locals, great beer, and I did not want to leave.

A country of contrast, for sure.

Economically it may not make sense to keep them, but it is a beautiful place, no doubt. Then again I went out with a beautiful girl once who did not work, and liked to drain my wallet every chance she got. She was dumped.

Think I just answered my own question:}

[BEagle]

It made Kinshasa look like Midsomer Norton. Vile people sitting in doorsteps, pissed, and a truly disgusting few hours.

I really didn't know that Midsomer Norton was that bad. Perhaps it's the influence of too much 'Natch'?: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Natch.jpg

[Echo 5]

Vile people sitting in doorsteps, pissed

A bit unfair that as the whole of UK has a fair share of this sort. Perhaps you just arrived on a quiet day. :hmm:

Economically it may not make sense to keep them

Hmm, is it not a case of us not wanting to keep " them " ?

Beags,

Good grief, how truly appalling. But that would perhaps explain the sylph-like Salmond:


I think the gentleman may be suffering from water retention and not the after effects of a guid haggis supper ;)

[Finningley Boy]

Have they come up with a deep-fried haggis yet?

Beagle me old Plum,

I was scoffing whole Deep Fried Haggises from a Chippy in Scissett, West Yorkshire, as far back as 1970!:ok:

FB:)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Beagle me old Plum,

I was scoffing whole Deep Fried Haggises from a Chippy in Scissett, West Yorkshire, as far back as 1970!:ok:

FB:)

When I think back to batter bits and other chip shop left overs all readily available in the 70's, or even other dripping type stuff from even earlier south of the border it does make me wonder if some of the public schoolboy twits posting on here have ever actually lived :ok:

[BEagle]

When I think back to batter bits and other chip shop left overs all readily available in the 70's, or even other dripping type stuff from even earlier...

Of course one forgets that some " 'ad it toof" and had to resort to eating such wretched scraps and, no doubt, 'anfuls of 'ot gravel - if they were lucky:

-eDaSvRO9xA

[rab-k]

Don't forget "scraps'n'mushy peas". Heaven....

Culinary delights aside, those who apparently want rid of us will be disappointed to learn that only 4 in 10 of those this side of the fence appear to favour dissolution of the Union.

Can't wait for the vote. It'll be so nice to see them come to the conclusion that they need us more than we need them.I think SunderlandMatt has hit the nail on the head. If I were a betting man I'd recon only 46% in favour of separation will be the end result; with the majority voting against.

Hope those of you who reside south of the border will look forward to your continued contributions towards our free university education, free NHS prescriptions, frozen council tax, free personal and nursing care for the elderly, etc. etc... all apparently in return for deep-fried mars bars and poetry in a language which you don't understand!

P.S. Nearly forgot to add the ":E", which makes my sarcasm/"banter" acceptable to all!

[Ken Scott]

public schoolboy twits

Seldom: Stereotyping a person based on their upbringing & background is just the sort of nonsense that E&D training is supposed to eliminate. I will be checking your currency & recommending remedial training as a matter of urgency.

[Exnomad]

I fall back on a well known author's comment that it is never difficult to distinguish between a ray of sunshine and a Scotsman with a grudge.

[sitigeltfel]

Many cities and towns in Scotland have a "Union Street". Any suggestions for the renaming of them?

[Pontius Navigator]

Our local chip serves batter bits, very popular I am led to believe.

Seriously though, how would a Channel Islands solution work? Allegiance to the Crown not to Parliament, no NHS, no SocSec, different jurisprudence, they have Governors, they are part of the UK as far as foreign policy and, they hope, defence although they don't pay. As far as I know they are probably cost-neutral to the UK.

[500N]

All these descriptions of the food brings back many good memories in the 70's
- and Seldom, that is from a Public School boy !

Not sure if Pork Scratchings fall in the same category but they were something that were very popular in the 70's.

[cazatou]

Sitigeltfel

Re your post 336 - how about "Dole Street" or "Benefit Lane".:ok:

[sisemen]

and, they hope, defence although they don't pay

http://www.annefrankguide.net/en-GB/content/jersey-rad.jpg

..and that's what happens when you don't pay :{

[minigundiplomat]

Last time there was a referendum in Scotland it was on the introduction of the Euro.














9/10 Scots said no to the Euro, they much preferred the GIRO.

[hval]

I have a suggestion.

Houses of Parliament are falling apart. The Glasgow City Chambers have had huge amount of money spent on them to keep them in good nick.

We move all politicians from london to Glasgow. The politicians get to use the City Chambers, but only after having drunk a half bottle of Buckie. the politicians will also get to live in a really wet climate where there is no sunshine.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Seldom: Stereotyping a person based on their upbringing & background is just the sort of nonsense that E&D training is supposed to eliminate. I will be checking your currency & recommending remedial training as a matter of urgency.

Best be quick about it Sir :p

[Ken Scott]

Best be quick about it Sir

I'm sure you won't be able to clear until you're fully current!! We wouldn't want retired personnel holding prejudices...

[cazatou]

Nice one MGD - but are you sure it was only 90%?

Seems a bit low to me!!

[Echo 5]

SFFP,

Best be quick about it Sir

Counting the days are we mate. :)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP,



Counting the days are we mate. :)

Certainly am :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

Certainly am

Anything we can do to help you on your way?:E

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Anything we can do to help you on your way?:E

Sadly it's a purely Military procedure so I am not sure than many of those regularly posting in here nowadays can help :p:p:p

[cazatou]

I don't think I will remove him from my Ignore List yet - just to be on the safe side!!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I don't think I will remove him from my Ignore List yet - just to be on the safe side!!

If someone would be so kind as to let caz know but as of early July he wont have need of that ignore function :p:p:p:p:p

[cazatou]

Obviously a wise precaution on my part!!!

[cazatou]

Another one - they all come out at the same time!!:rolleyes:

[Burnt Fishtrousers]

I think the Scots need to consider for the past 13 years the UK was governed by the labour party predominantly comprising of the Scots in the cabinate and senior positions,who left a huge deficit for the nation to service...Oh, and the UK tax payer had to bail out one of their banks sanctioned by a Scotsman, who was an unsuccessful leader and Prime Minister....and of course the previous one, of Scottish origin was a smiling buffoon. (Although in the interests of balance Cameron is giving them both a run for their money)

Not a good omen for independence is it?

I personally hope the Scots will remain as part of the union and not become a satellite refugee who will presumably go to Europe with the begging bowl out, only to be rejected by a collapsing European Union..And on a day to day basis just what beef do the Scots have against being part of the union anyway? The Scottish people arent stupid, they can see what Salmond is, a complete one trick pony windbag that makes John Prescott look erudite.

Cameron could be extremely mischevious by stopping the Barnet contribution overnight as a taster to the Scottish people as to what a Salmond regeme would actually be like without subsidy from other parts of the U.K. ...

A machine is only as good as the sum of its parts and I hope the Scots stay part of the union for all our interests.

However if they do go their own way then they have to comitt completely with borders closed, passports required (duel citizenship for Scots living south of the border) their own armed forces, their own currency.
We enjoy a rich tapestry of culture in the UK and we could do with retaining it.

I personally have enjoyed all my visits to Scotland business or otherwise and being half Scot myself I enjoy conversing with people who when they growl "washa teme" you dont know whether they are enquiring as to your footballing loyalties or what time of day it is....Its Newcastle United and 14.55 Alex

[MagnusP]

While you're at it, any thoughts on renaming "Scotland Yard"?

[MagnusP]

Burnt Fishtrousers: rest assured that English resentment over Barnett and the West Lothian Question is balanced nicely by Scottish concerns about English expenditure (in particular on items subject to the WLQ) coming out of the overall UK expenditure budget. If England had a devolved chamber and a block grant like Scotland's, the WLQ would go away and we could all get on with running our own affairs. Keep a smaller UK chamber in Wastemonster to deal with defence, immigration &c, and to agree the block grants to the devolved administrations.

[cazatou]

A devolved Scotland would need its own unique Passport coupled with its own Consuls and Embassy Staff in each Country of the World. It therefore follows that it would need its own Ambassadors as well as its own Foreign Office.

[dagama]

How much will a pint of Ten bob cost after indy!

[denachtenmai]

Radio 2, yesterday, spent quite a bit of time talking to Jocks, about what would happen if they voted for independence.
Now there was someone, also a blogger but can't remember his name, who is quite happy because he spends one week working in Scotland and one week working in London, he was asked about the need for passport controls, if they go ahead with the split.
He said nothing would change because of the Schengen agreement, my question is, what happens to him if (when)we pull out of Europe?
Regards, Den.

[Pontius Navigator]

He said nothing would change because of the Schengen agreement, .

We are not a signatory.

I see the plan is 2014 - Vote if yes work out details and independence in 2016.

What happens, as predicted, if the costs such as diplomatic missions, defence, pensions etc etc cannot be resolved or become impossibly expensive?

What about all the Government Agencies setup in Scotland? Will they relocate back to England? JPA? MOD Directory Services? Tax Offices?

Could be some massive job gains in Carlisle, Berwick and Newcastle :)

[denachtenmai]

Thanks for that PN, I'd forgotten that we hadn't opted in to Schengen.
Regards, Den.

[Sempre 206]

Just a thought, but what if a majority of those currently serving in the Scottish Regiments do not want to become part of Alex's 'New Model Army'?

[langleybaston]

I imagine some sort of loyal oath is taken on enlistment still?

[airpolice]

Pontius, you are still thinking in old fashioned terms.

The costs incurred by an overseas presence, like the UK currently has, do not need to be part of the Democratic Peoples Republic of Jockistan.

Remember all the people who said we couldn't not have a new MPA, or Harriers or Soldiers in Germany or Aircraft Carriers?

New Caledonia (2016) Ltd will manage fine by running the country like a business, not like a football club where you spend the money and then wonder where it will come from.

Whatever else he is, Wee Eck is not daft. Scotland has no need for Trident, but that's not to say that the way of doing things would rule out allowing the RN to keep it in Scotland, at a price of course. Can you really see England not using Trident to stop something in ten years from now that they would use it to stop today?

Trident is a deterrent, but it will deter anyone from attacking Scotland whether it is ours or not. We are (physically) too close to England for Westminster to ignore a threat to us.

I don't see them ever using it, so why keep paying for it?

[Courtney Mil]

Indeed, Sempre.

That's sort of what I was saying a while back. I would think that each soldier would have to be transferred from the British Army to the Scottish Republican Army - presumably voluntarily. Maybe resign from one and then join the other. Or, will foreign nationals find themselves booted out of the British Army as not eligible to serve as regulars?

Either way, I'm not sure anyone can just transfer entire regiments from one nation to another, lock, stock and barrel.

Perhaps Alex is expecting that the UK is going to bend over backwards to give the best possible deal in all respects and help fill in all the gaps when a very small country finds it actually can't fund pensions, forces, police, NHS, free unis, etc.

[airpolice]

Courtney, Eck may be relying on Westminster continuing to bend over forwards.

[cazatou]

It seems quite straightforward to me in that if the result of the Referendum is as the Leader of the SNP hopes (and Scotland secedes from the Union and becomes Independent) then all Scottish Regiments should cease to exist in the British Army. Personnel from those Units and all Scottish Personnel in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force should be offered the opportunity to transfer to fledgeling Scottish Units or discharge from the UK Forces.

The composition of the Armed Forces which the new Scottish Government will require are of course a matter that the new Scottish Government will have to address.

[Courtney Mil]

Airpolice and Caz. Right!!

Or, of course, we could form a regiment for a group af foreign soldiers under the same terms as the Gurkhas.

[Ken Scott]

Presumably the pensions of all those Scottish born personnel formerly of UK military who return home will be met by the Scottish Government?

[Stuff]

That's some serious xenophobia bordering on racism there Cazatou.

What about all those Scottish personnel who are married to or have a parent who is English? Are you going to banish them from your "pure" UK armed forces too?

[cazatou]

Courtney Mil

I agree but only if they can live up to the accolade that Field Marshall The Viscount Slim gave to the 1/6th Gurkha Rifles:-

The Almighty created in the Gurkha an ideal infantryman, indeed an ideal Rifleman, skilled in field-craft, intensely proud of his military record and unswervingly loyal. Add to that his honesty in word and deed, his parade perfection and his unquenchable cheerfulness, then service with the Gurkha is for any soldier an immense satisfaction. The Gurkha expects from his officers a standard as high as his own.

[Courtney Mil]

Stuff,

That's a good point, but I think we have to remember that the same rules will have to apply to indepentent Scots as would to any other foreign nationals. Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces. Of course, if one can prove citizenship then that may open the door. Ultimately, though, those people would have to choose which nationality they wanted to adopt?

The biggest issue is that they can't have it both ways.


Caz,

That's good. And aren't the G-men just that?:ok:

[Stuff]

Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces.

Except when it suits our purposes. We employed a fair number of ex RNZAF personnel in 2001, at the time of their employment none of them had citizenship - they got that after 4? years service. There were 2 of them on 19 Sqn when I went through and damn good they were too.

Made life quite interesting when one got posted to Jags and had issues when he needed access to documents that were PM Secret UK eyes only :P

[LFFC]

Stuff
What about all those Scottish personnel who are married to or have a parent who is English? Are you going to banish them from your "pure" UK armed forces too?

It looks like Salmond considers that they don't much care about Scotland, so they shouldn't be taken into account! :*

Salmond 25 Jan 12 (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hnt0LkuTqDZ9LGbyPgX-U_RdFnaA?docId=CNG.87a219bfd4e5da2ccd154b0a88c7f103.781), "The people who care most about Scotland -- that is the people who live, work and bring up their families in Scotland -- should be the ones taking the decision about our nation's future."

In other words, Scots living south of the boarder don't matter to him! Maybe they will become English on succession. If so, why should they travel back north to form his armed forces?

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, Stuff. I was involved in that and it was a real struggle to get exceptions for them even to be in the RAF. I do recall the Jag problem. Of course, one could argue that if it's that hard to get the Government to allow Kiwis (that have mostly been on our side) in, what's it going to be like trying to allow Scots in (who keep banging on about fighting us all the time)? Flower of Scotland springs to mind.

[Fareastdriver]

Apart from exchanges, we don't tend to employ people from other countries in our armed forces

Having signed on the dotted line in Salisbury, Rhodesia, I was not surprised when our boss told us in 1964 that 30% of the active aircrew in the RAF where 'Dominion, Colonial or Overseas'. We had eight of us on our squadron at the time and it was a V force squadron. It did not seem to change a lot for the next decade.

[Stuff]

Does anyone have a figure for how many people currently in the UK forces are Scottish?

There must be a DASA nerd that collates the data and could tell us. Their website only lists UK/Irish/Commonwealth/Nepalese/Other UKDS 2010 - Chapter 2 - Personnel (http://www.dasa.mod.uk/modintranet/UKDS/UKDS2010/c2/table214.php)

[cazatou]

Stuff

Re Xenophobia

I am retired but in my 30+ years of service I visited a lot of places:-

Anguilla / Bahrain / Canada / Denmark / Estonia / Finland/Gambia/ Holland/Iran/Jamaica/ Kenya/ Luxembourg/ Malta/ Norway/Oman/Portugal/Qatar/Rhodesia/Sweden/ Trinidad/USSR/Vagar/Wales/ (I missed out on Xanadu)/Yugoslavia/Zambia.

That, of course, is only a small sample

PS The one I will treasure was the visit to Moscow during the "Cold War".

[Stuff]

Your black and white, "all Scottish people must go home or be fired" is still xenophobic, no matter how good a travel agent you had.

These personnel have sworn an oath to the monarch and served (many with distinction) until now. You seem to preclude any sort of arrangement akin to grandfather rights of service or a citizenship deal which may allow them to continue to serve.

[Kitbag]

Citizens of Commonwealth members are welcome to serve in the UK armed forces. That will be the simple get out clause, there will be no need (indeed no benefit) in repatriating men and women who volunteered to serve their country, to suggest otherwise is crass.

[TomJoad]

".... all Scottish Regiments should cease to exist in the British Army. Personnel from those Units and all Scottish Personnel in the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force should be offered the opportunity to transfer to fledgeling Scottish Units or discharge from the UK Forces"


Really Cazatou! Because overnight the defence manning requirement to meet the UK's (remaining elements) defence comitments and intentions simply reduces because Scotland goes independent! Really! Never though that Scotalnd figured so prominently in the UK's aspirations on the world stage and in determining our defence manning. Maybee we need Scotland more than somone is letting on!

As an alternative vision, how about post independence, Scots personnel would be made an offer to remain in the UK forces because they are needed in order to project the same capability as they were doing the day before Scottish independence was declared. It is not beyound the wit of man, given that Scotland would remain a Commenwealth country, and if we are honest our closest ally, that new legislation could be framed. Perhaps the true meaning of special relationship not like the phoney one oft cited by press and politicians on change of government. The nature of the Union is changing, Scottish independence or not, so we need to get used to it.

[Fareastdriver]

When Ian Smith announced the Unilateral Declaration of Independence the only reaction from the British government I heard of was that RRhAF students at Valley and Chivenor were suspended from the course and sent back home. It did not make any difference to the rest of us; we weren't even asked.

[Stuff]

Careful Tom, your post is coherent, logical and cogent. It's sure to be flamed to death! :P

[cazatou]

Stuff

I am sorry but it is not I (nor any other Englishman, Irishman, Welshman or inhabitant of the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands) who does not understand the problem.

It is the people of Scotland who have been seduced by the rhetoric of the SNP.

Those Countries mentioned above are well aware that the UK (except probably Scotland) will all fight together to maintain the Democratic Society that is currently enjoyed by the British People.

It is NOT the English, Irish, Welsh, Manx or the inhabitants of the Channel Islands who are at fault here.

You want to live in a Socialist Regime run by Mr S - that is fine with me. Just don't come running to us in the UK when it all turns to worms.

Mr G Brown was far more competent that the current Leader of the SNP. Just remember what Mr G Brown did to the economy.

[Stuff]

Hang on a moment, I can't even understand where your rambling argument is going now.

Are you saying that the reason all Scots need to be fired from the UK military is that they won't fight to defend the democracy if the SNP manage to break the Union?

[TomJoad]

"It is the people of Scotland who have been seduced by the rhetoric of the SNP."

"It is NOT the English, Irish, Welsh, Manx or the inhabitants of the Channel Islands who are at fault here.

"It is quite simply - the SNP!!!!"

_____________________________________

No, No and No. To debate, review and take a decision to reform an agreement of union is an entierly legitimate democratic and indeed healthy activity for any part of any political union.

I'm no student of history but I do not beleive that the act of union was framed by the words "in perpetuity". Nor for that matter was our membership of the EU and the right to question and debate that union! If one debate is legitimate and healthy the other certainly is as well.

The Scots have not been seduced by any rhetoric - they will listen intelligently to the debate and ask some searching questions of both sides. Salmond's "milk and honey" nor Cameron's "we all benefit from the union" will not go without inquiry and call for further disclosure.

Above all it is certainly not "It is quite simply - the SNP!!!!". The Scots live and breath democracy, recall the Declaration of Abroath. I would argue that they are more tuned to the democratic process than many within the UK; it's Calvanistic, it is in their roots. Whatever the outcome the decision and consequences will be theirs alone and they are well aware of that. The debate that has just caught the attention of the UK media and Westminster politicians has been pondered and considered in detail by the Scots since the establishment of devolution over 10 years ago and earlier - it is certainly no longer an English/Scottish thing to them, in truth it never has been.

[Abraham Zapruder]

To join the British Army you must be either a British or Irish citizen or a citizen of a Commonwealth Country. You may also qualify if you are a British subject under the British Nationality Act of 1981.

Source: MoD (http://www.hmforces.co.uk/join_the_forces/articles/777-overseas-applications-to-join-the-british-army)

I'm confused...

Everything I've read to date suggests an independent Scotland would retain the monarchy and as such join the Commonwealth of Nations.

Therefore as with the Irish, and citizens of Commonwealth countries, Scots could choose to apply to join either the UK Armed Forces or their own Defence Forces. Presumably those already serving with the UK Armed Forces could opt to remain or transfer.

How does that square with previous posts suggesting the contrary?

Furthermore, can anyone tell me how the following occurs re. the use of flags. Why the difference?

Scottish soldier's funeral - Scottish flag (http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Funeral+Held+Late+Private+Kevin+Elliot+C4yQXlO_8hgl.jpg)
Scottish soldier's funeral - British flag (http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Funeral+Takes+Place+Corporal+Thomas+Mason+izKrWgYUqgNl.jpg)

[TomJoad]

Sorry Abraham, I don't know how to do the quote thing yet.

"Furthermore, can anyone tell me how the following occurs re. the use of flags. Why the difference?"

Scottish soldier's funeral - Scottish flag (http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Funeral+Held+Late+Private+Kevin+Elliot+C4yQXlO_8hgl.jpg)
Scottish soldier's funeral - British flag (http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Funeral+Takes+Place+Corporal+Thomas+Mason+izKrWgYUqgNl.jpg)

---------------------------------------

I suspect that the use of the Saltire there was simply a family decision and nothing to do with protocal and recived etiquette. The Scots tend to have a healthy respect for protocal rather than being overly bound by it.

[racedo]

But doesn't HM Govt support the rights of nations to vote democratically on their future.........

[TomJoad]

"But doesn't HM Govt support the rights of nations to vote democratically on their future......... "

It surely does racedo, and that's what's happening here, nothing more.

[oggers]

Let's cut to the chase. The UK needs Scotland in order to maintain a place at the top table of men's tennis. Go Murray :ok:

[teeteringhead]

The UK needs Scotland in order to maintain a place at the top table of men's tennis. Go Murray I don't think so .....

Murray winning = brave Brit

Murray losing = whinging Jock

....simples.;)

[MagnusP]

It is the people of Scotland who have been seduced by the rhetoric of the SNP.

Bollocks. If that were the case, why then is there a higher percentage of English than Scots supporting Scottish independence (I don't, BTW).

And are you really suggesting that my uncles, both of whom served Queen and country with distinction and reached the rank of colonel should now be cast aside by the UK in their eighties simply because they were in the Scots Guards? :=

[Avionker]

Just don't come running to us in the UK when it all turns to worms.

Posted by cazatou, from his abode in France....

How do you spell hypocrisy again?

[engineer(retard)]

"Whatever the outcome the decision and consequences will be theirs alone and they are well aware of that."

Whether Scotland likes it or not, their secession from the union is not a matter for them alone as it affects all other parts. The debate should be across the union as should the referendum. Perhaps a 3rd question

Should Scotland as an unwilling partner be kept in the Union?

[cazatou]

Avionker

How kind of you to draw attention to your total lack of awareness in respect of those who have Retired and opted to live elsewhere in the EU. I was a Pilot in the RAF for over 30 years and my Wife was a College Vice Principal who owned her own aircraft. Both of us are UK taxpayers as HMG reserves the right to tax "Government Pensions" in the UK no matter where in the World you are resident.

My Military and State Pensions and my Wife's Teachers and State Pensions are therefore Taxed in the UK - so I believe that I am perfectly at liberty to comment on matters that will have severe ramifications for the whole of the United Kingdom.

[ORAC]

No, No and No. To debate, review and take a decision to reform an agreement of union is an entierly legitimate democratic and indeed healthy activity for any part of any political union. The South will Rise Again! :p

1YWGuwtsskU

[Avionker]

cazatou

Don't mention it.

I am well aware of the fact that UK citizens choose to live in various EU countries though, I am after all one of them. I am 100% Scottish by birth and I was an avionics technician in the RAF for 15 years, before PVR'ing. I owned my own car.

I served in the armed forces of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as you did. I will also be entitled to a pension, therefore I feel that I have just as much right to an opinion as you do.

Of course if there is a positive vote from the people of Scotland for independence, and you have your way, then my pension will not be paid by the UK despite my loyal service to it. So in summary my 15 years of service, including a 2 year tour of NI obviously count for nothing in your eyes.

Thank you for drawing attention to your apparent lack of respect for those with whom you served.

[Fareastdriver]

cazatou

You might want one of these things; again.

http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee224/fareastdriver/Hitachi.jpg

[cazatou]

Avionker

It was on the 14th August 1969 that I Personally passed the message to the Home Secretary (Mr Callaghan) that the request for the Troops to be deployed in Northern Ireland had been made and was being implemented.

In the years that followed I flew into Belfast and Dublin over 300 times - several dozen of those sorties to Belfast were to collect Casevacs. My last sortie into Belfast was on 23rd February 1995. I was therefore operating into Northern Ireland and Eire for a period in excess of 25 years.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Avionker


In the years that followed I flew into Belfast and Dublin over 300 times.

The average 1st tourist Wessex Co Pilot would have got more approaches than that in a couple of 21/7's, and into some pretty nasty places as opposed to down the slope into a civvy airport.

[Wwyvern]

Cazatou,

If you qualified for the GSM (Northern Ireland), you might qualify for the Accumulated Campaign Service Medal (ACSM). Qualifying time is 720 days campaign service from some time in 1969. Note that one air sortie equates to 1 day's qualifying time at the rate of one sortie per day.

[Fareastdriver]

I collected a thousand hours in Northern Ireland; most of it below 200 ft. I would think that during that time I was in a gunsight more than three hundred times.

However, getting back on thread. I, as a pensioner living in Scotland, hope that the Union prevails. The reason is selfish. Should Scotland become independent and the financial dreams don't work out then they are going to have to cut out a few perks. The first one is the very expensive free bus travel nationwide for the over sixties. I like that; I like going from Aberdeen to Ullapool for the weekend for free; and I want the British taxpayers to keep funding it.

[cazatou]

Wwyvern

We did not qualify for the GSM because we were not on the Ration Strength in NI. IIRC the requirement was 30 days on the Ration Strength.

[Wiretensioner]

What the f*&^ has GSM and accumulated bits and bobs and being on someone's ration strength got to do with this thread which is titled Scottish Independence!!!

Wiretensioner

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Wwyvern

We did not qualify for the GSM because we were not on the Ration Strength in NI. IIRC the requirement was 30 days on the Ration Strength.

I suspect you would have also needed to be there for a bit longer than 90 minutes on each visit to qualify for rations :p

[Avionker]

I am still waiting to find out whether cazatou thinks that my service to the UK should be coldly and completely dismissed should an independence referendum return an affirmative vote.

[Biggus]

The thing is that caz can't stay on topic for very long without feeling the urge to tell us something marvelous about himself, or indeed apparently his wife...

In addition to the "I personally" comment being irrelevant to the debate, what has "my wife was a College Vice Principal who owned her own aircraft....." got to do with anything? The fact you are both UK taxpayers might indeed have some merit in the discussion, not that your wife is commenting directly - as for the rest? Do men whose wife owns an aircraft have a more important opinion than those who don't?

How many RAF log books is it you have again caz...? Just in case we have all forgotten.





Edited to add - He won't answer the question, as he won't have read it. Apparently I'm on his "ignore" list!

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Edited to add - He won't answer the question, as he won't have read it. Apparently I'm on his "ignore" list!

Making Caz' ignore list is dead easy, just ask him a question that he doesn't like and voilà, you are ignored :ok:

I asked him loads on the Mull thread, all of which at best he could stumble a response to but always ended up looking foolish, at one time he even tried to blame the crash on the Captain not sitting down in the mess for breakfast :p

[Finningley Boy]

Alex Salmond has just been on the Andrew Marr show, peddling backwards for all he's worth. Evidently now, an independent Scotland will still be a part of the United Kingdom i.e. the Queen will still be the reigning Monarch in Scotland, as in England, Northern Ireland and Wales. Scotland will also retain, for now, Sterling as the currency. Wonder what happened to the idea of signing up to the Euro?:E

Wonder what happened to the idea of a wholly independent Scotland, what's more, Mr Salmond was speaking most charmingly about the English!:p

FB:)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

The Devo Max crap did not spring up by accident, more money more autonomy and the Westminster safety net would do nicely I suspect.

[Wrathmonk]

Also amusing watching him duck and dive Andrew Marrs question on whether the rest of the Union should get a vote on the Devo-Max question. Marr suggested that Devo-Max was more like a divorce and therefore both parties should be involved in negotiations ie if the Scots have a referendum to adopt Devo Max then so should the remainder of the Union as to whether they would allow it!

SFFP

The benefits of the fully independent Scotland, as far as the Mull is concerned, is they might bring corporate manslaughter charges against those responsible for the accident, and the apologists who covered it up.:E

[TomJoad]

Re Devo Max,

Personally Devo Max, as I understand it, looks a good option vice Independence. It would mean:

1. UK remains intact.
2. Scotland responsible for its own tax raising and expenditure - brings full
fiscal responsibility and puts paid to Barnet formula and complaints of
unfairness from South Watford gap.
3. England would gain its own parliament separate from UK Westminster
parliament - hopefully bringing greater sense of identity and
representation to the English regions.

Devo Max would certainly need a UK wide vote but I think the idea is progressive and looking more and more attractice. It's certainly worth discussing to tease the issues out.

:ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Devo Max is being sought because its a great deal for those south of the border :confused:

[TomJoad]

"Devo Max is being sought because its a great deal for those south of the border http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif "



Errr,,,,,,,,,no, but that is perhaps a consequence! Only a thought!

[fantom]

What's the Tower for?

AS?

[Rj111]

The question should be "Should Scotland leave the United Kingdom and become an independent sovereign state?". Very simple and candid.

Devo max has rightfully been rejected by Cameron because it's a silly idea. It would bring all the negatives of a federal system (inconsistent business laws, tax loopholes, more bureaucracies etc) but due to it's lopsided implementation in the UK it would bring virtually none of the benefits.

It would be like if America actually only had 2 states. One being California and the other being a flyover state like Minnesota. England would have to divide into smaller states too to make it relevent, but it seems the UK is too small for a federation.

In fact we should never have given them a Parliament in the first place - it's already proving detrimental to the UK overall - but the genie is now out of the lamp and it won't be revoked without a hissy fit.

If Scotland wants Devo Max they can go it alone, but they can't hold the rest of the UK to ransom to get their own way all the time. It's either in as an equal or out.

Salmond is of course fishing for a reaction like this off Cameron and the population of the UK because that is his plan: create a divide and animosity that doesn't exist between English and Scottish people. If they keep arguing long enough they'll hate each other and both will want to go their own way. This is probably why we have to wait so long for an answer to the most basic of questions. Sigh...

[SASless]

Perhaps California and either Louisana or Wyoming would be better choices.

California...leftist liberal, welfare state...high taxes...immigration problems...high crime...and some oil but lots of farming. Louisana and Wyoming...smaller more rural populations...lower crime...not much in the way of immigration problems and lots of oil.

[Rj111]

I chose Cali because it's got the biggest population. But you're right. We'd have to make the small one the whining socialists.

[ihoharv]

SASless - I think you'll find Louisiana has a higher crime rate in all major categories than California. Indeed most of the Southern (generally Republican) states are higher crime. Wiki is a good pointer to various databases, colorful maps, etc.

As for immigration - well I see the point you're trying to make but that really has to be seen as a Federal issue. State hands are pretty tied, for better or worse. By and large border states will of course have bigger issues but every State in the Union is trying to figure this one out. Don't hold your breath for action from Congress. And until everybody - even the good folks from Wyoming - is prepared to pay ten bucks for a lettuce we can say everybody benefits - or is pained - equally.

Just my 2c ....

[cazatou]

Avionker

My apologies - I have been dealing with other matters.

Regarding your Military Pension - it is defined as a UK Government Pension which HMG reserves the right to tax in the United Kingdom irrespective of where you live on this Planet. My Military Pension and my Wife's Teachers Pension, as well as our Old Age Pensions, are taxed in the UK - although we are resident in France.

If Scotland secedes from the UK then that situation will prevail as the UK will still exist without the participation of Scotland - thus such Pensions will still be taxed in UK!!!

[Wander00]

Cazatou - you can get the UK state pension paid direct in €, taxed in France not UK, hence I paid 5% on it last year (2010)

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Cazatou - you can get the UK state pension paid direct in €, taxed in France not UK, hence I paid 5% on it last year (2010)

As a rough % how much better off were you than

" My Military Pension and my Wife's Teachers Pension, as well as our Old Age Pensions, are taxed in the UK"

:confused:

[sisemen]

The same applies in Oz but that doesn't stop the Inland Revenue writing to you wrongly claiming that you owe them back tax :yuk:

[Wander00]

Difference between 5% and 20% on UK state pension - not squillions, but better in my pocket than the State's (either).

[cazatou]

Wander00

Thanks for that I'll look into it.

[handsfree]

Information is here for you

State Pension for Britons living abroad : Directgov - Pensions and retirement planning (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Pensionsandretirementplanning/StatePension/Basicstatepension/DG_10026714)

[cazatou]

handsfree

Thanks for that - I will pass it on to "She who must be obeyed".

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Difference between 5% and 20% on UK state pension - not squillions, but better in my pocket than the State's (either).

So if you lived in France and did things your way you would pay 15% less tax than someone who had their pension taxed in the UK, sorry but that really really does make me chuckle ;););)

[Mike7777777]

Post #1 So Alex Salmond says that an independent Scotland will have its own Armed Forces. Any of our Scottish cousins in the RAF, Navy or Army fancy moving back north to help Salmond defend his kingdom.........? Might be able to keep Leuchars and Kinloss open, not sure what they'll base there though?
I had a conversation with a Scottish client sometime in the last century re: an independent Scotland, his almost indecipherable reply was that this would be a disaster because of the cost of a standing Scottish army to defend against the historical enemy.
Salmond will posture, he'll have his bluff called and he'll back down. Probably.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Salmond is anything but bloody stupid, hence the sudden arrival of this bloody Devo Max thing. It should be a straight in or out question but I suspect we south of the border need to stand by to bend over and take it up the tail pipe :}

[rab-k]

but I suspect we south of the border need to stand by to bend over and take it up the tail pipe :ugh:


As a civil servant in London, and being part of the establishment, I always accepted the general view that an independent Scotland would not be able to survive on its own without financial help from the London Exchequer.

However, when in 1968 I was able to examine the so-called "books" for the first time, I was shocked to find that the position was exactly the opposite and that Scotland contributed much more to the UK economy than its other partners. This was, of course, before the oil boom.

I realised that the Treasury would wish to keep this a secret, as it might feed nationalistic tendencies north of the border, which at that time were very weak. I took the decision to keep an eye on the situation to see how long it would take for the true facts to emerge, which I felt would only be a short time. However, the Treasury and the Establishment did an excellent job, aided and abetted by the media, to keep the myth about Scotland alive.

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

There were no attempts to refute these figures, which caused much embarrassment to the Tory Government of the day. However, the facts were quickly covered up by the Unionist controlled media.

Then a year later with a Labour government now in power came a further bombshell. Following further promptings by the SNP, on 21 August 1998, Mr Salmond received a letter from the House of Commons Library (ref. 98/8/56 EP/rjt) which gave a table showing that based on Scotland's GDP per capita, Scotland would occupy 7th place in the world's wealth league. The UK was at 17th Place.

When the Labour government came to power it announced a 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax. From my detailed knowledge of income tax, I felt that this was the worst possible thing that they could do, as extra monies would be needed following on from the Thatcher era, if they were to fulfil even a fraction of their promises to the electorate. I came to the conclusion, and I still feel that I was right, that this was done by Labour to prove to the voters of Middle England that they could match the Tories in tax cuts.

Despite the disclosures of 1998, attempts to deceive the Scottish electorate did not end there. In March 1999 a Labour Party leaflet appeared which said that if the SNP were to forego Gordon Brown's 1p cut in the standard rate of income tax, every family in Scotland would be £250 worse off. This became the major topic of a TV debate between Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar. Salmond tried to point out to Dewar that he was using the wrong figures. Watching the debate, I saw Dewar's eyes roll in his head for a few moments but he carried on regardless.

After the debate it took the Labour Party a whole week to admit that they were wrong. There was in fact a whole chain of errors which the Labour Party tried to blame on "printing mistakes". However Labour could not deny the fact that in their calculations the UK average figure, which included the high wage earners in the city of London and the booming economy in the South East corner of England (which if I may say so were the result of the selfish policies of Mrs Margaret Thatcher), the figure used was almost double those of the average Scottish wage which at that time stood at £17,000 per year.

Looking closely at the figures and taking the year 2006 as a benchmark, I found that Scotland had an annual relative surplus of £2,8 billion, which works out at £560 for every man, woman and child. In contrast the UK had a deficit of £34.8 billion.

In November 2006, the U.N. published its annual "Human Development Index". For the sixth year running, oil rich Norway topped the list, and won on such factors as generous welfare payments, education, high income and a long life expectancy. Norway, has of course, less than a third of the amount of oil than Scotland in its waters. Norway wisely created an "oil fund" in 1995 which in 5 years reached a total of £250 billion, so that Norway sailed through the Credit Crunch.

Who are the real subsidy junkies?

Any lingering doubt that Scotland more than pays its way, or survives on subsidies, was dispelled by a new report published in October 2007. Whilst the Daily Mail, which by no stretch of the imagination could be described as a supporter of Scottish nationalism, devoted a whole page to the analysis of the report which was based on tax paid per capita as against spending, Northern Ireland received £4,212 more than it paid in tax, North East England £3,133, Wales £2,990, N.W. England £1732, South West England £978, West Midlands £931, East Midlands £185 and lastly Scotland £38. Only the South East corner produced a small surplus due to tax paid on the high wages within the city of London at this time (pre-Credit Crunch).

Analysis

It is no longer refuted that Scotland exports more per capita than the rest of the UK. In 1968 when I first discovered that Scotland was in surplus in relation to the rest of the UK, its exports could be broken down into whisky, meat, timber, fish, and of course tourism which is a huge hidden income. Those exports are supported by a population of only 5,000,000 as against 45,000,000 for the rest of the UK, quite a substantial advantage.

With the oil boom, Scotland's economy was transformed. Scottish oil has to date funded the Treasury with £300 billion, which has pushed Scotland up from 7th place in World Wealth rankings, had it been in control of its own resources, to 3rd place.

On 29 May 2008, Labour Chancellor Alistair Darling admitted in a back-handed way, that Scotland's oil revenue had been underwriting the UK's failure to balance its books for decades. There is still 30 years of oil supply left in the North Sea (some 150 million barrels) valued at 2008 prices at 1 trillion dollars. This excludes the new fields being brought into production in deeper waters west of Shetland.

Meantime whisky exports, which I listed in 1968 as one of Scotland's top assets, have risen at a phenomenal rate. For example, whisky exports to China amounted to £1 million in 2000/2001, by 2007 they had risen to £70 million. They have continued to rise, although I don't have more recent statistics.

On the economies of Independence, Scotland has also 18 times its requirements in North Sea gas, which on current trading is more expensive than oil. The country exports 24% of its surplus electricity south of the Border, with much of the back-up by Hydro Electric unused.

Even if nuclear is excluded, the future looks bright, the new Glen Doe hydro station on Loch Ness which was opened by Scotland's First Minister last year can produce enough electricity for 240,000 homes. Further projects down the Loch which have now reached the planning stage will increase this to over 1,000,000 homes. Wind and wave energy will also contribute significantly in the future.

No doubt as the time draws nearer to the referendum on Scottish Independence, politicians will do their best to distort the figures, but the truth is something that never varies.

____________________________________________

Before retiring, John Jappy was a senior civil servant in the Inland Revenue, working for the Accountant & Comptroller General's Branch based at Somerset House in London. His duties involved liaising closely with Treasury officials to prepare accounts and financial information for UK government ministers.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

but I suspect we south of the border need to stand by to bend over and take it up the tail pipe

:ugh:



Now now Rab if you had read and digested the whole post

"Salmond is anything but bloody stupid, hence the sudden arrival of this bloody Devo Max thing. It should be a straight in or out question but I suspect we south of the border need to stand by to bend over and take it up the tail pipe http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif"

you will struggle to find, as is the case through out this thread where I suggest the Scots cannot go it alone. My thought is that the sudden, but no doubt well planned introduction of the Devo Max thing is where we south of the border are going to get hooped :=

[Rj111]

In fact it took another 30 years before the first chink in their armour started to appear. This came unexpectedly on 13 January 1997 when, in reply to a series of questions put by SNP Leader in the Commons, Alex Salmond MP to the then Tory government, Treasury Minister William Waldegrave admitted that Scotland had paid a massive £27 billion more to the London Exchequer than it had received since the Tories came to power in 1979. Statistically this works out at £5,400 for every Scot.

That might sound a lot but it's only 300 pounds per capita per year.

It's no surprise that Scotland provides a surplus with oil.

[Biggus]

Sorry, maybe I'm not being too bright, but I don't see how the numbers work out in terms of this "North Sea Oil Bonanza"....

rab-k quotes that there is still 30 years of north sea oil left, worth $1 trillion at 2007 prices.

Is that $1 trillion at open market prices? So how much would any government, whether that be Scottish or UK, see of that - in terms of taxation?

Assuming for a moment 100%. Then $1 trillion = £630 billion at todays exchange rate. £630 over 30 years is approx £21 billion a year. Scotlands current GDP is £131 billion. So, if all the oil revenue went to Scotland it would provide 16% of GDP.

But if an independent Scottish government only saw 40% of oil revenues in taxation, which is still a very generous figure, then it would be getting approx. £8 billion a year, which is 6% of GDP. Hardly a game changing scenario surely?

As to the comment that North Sea oil has contributed £300 billion to the UK economy over the years. Well I won't dispute the figure, but over how many years? If it is say 20 (and it's probably more), then that's £15 billion a year, when the government is spending about £700 billion a year today, and even 20 years ago was spending about £250 billion, say an average of £400 billion.
So, £15 Bn from oil vs £400 Bn expenditure, i.e. oil has contributed about 4% to government expenditure???

Once again, while nice to have, I don't see how the North Sea oil revenues have had a bonanza effect for the UK. I would suggest that there has been as much, if not more, benefit to the UK in terms of oil companies investing in infrastructure, employing local workers, etc.

It should be noted that in 2011 28% of Norway's state revenues were generated from the petroleum industry - by contrast that is a "game changing" number!


While I can understand that people talking about £30Bn here or £100Bn there can seem like very impressive numbers, they need to be seen in context. Over what periods of time, and in contrast to what budgets, are these figures being used.

[Fareastdriver]

If it is say 20 (and it's probably more),

Twenty years ago is 1991. The Forties field started producing in 1975 and reached its peak of 500,000 barrels a day in 1979.
2012-1975=37 years. Recalculate the average annual income from that; getting on to half.

[TomJoad]

Now now Rab if you had read and digested the whole post

"Salmond is anything but bloody stupid, hence the sudden arrival of this bloody Devo Max thing. It should be a straight in or out question but I suspect we south of the border need to stand by to bend over and take it up the tail pipe http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif"

you will struggle to find, as is the case through out this thread where I suggest the Scots cannot go it alone. My thought is that the sudden, but no doubt well planned introduction of the Devo Max thing is where we south of the border are going to get hooped :=

Now to be fair Seldom, with exception to the Daily Mail and the Westminster elite, Devo Max is new in name only. The concept of progressive development of the authority of the Scottish parliament was an intrinsic element of the devolution settlement. In fact, it has been part of the received civic debate in Scotland for the past 10 years. There are more than a few elements of the UK establishment that have come to this debate somewhat late and are playing catch up. In truth, playing catch up, understanding the debate as it is understood by the entitled electoral franchise in Scotland, remains Cameron’s greatest challenge. Hopefully, he will make better progress than the Daily Mail is likely to make.



Rab,

Interesting post, thanks for sharing. One wonders if the true picture re financial viability, without interference from either side, will ever be disclosed. I guess I'm being naive but I find it so bloody frustrating trying to cut through all the deception and trivia. Ho hum.

[dagama]

England 13 Scotland 6 'Nuff said!

[hval]

Piffle! I lost a bottle of wine on that result.

I feel that England cheated. They played with 15 players for a start.

[dagama]

Hval: Bad luck. Just like Alex (perpetually), were you on another planet when the match was on? TBH Scotland played very well and difference was a charged-down converted try so don't feel too bad.

[hval]

Not on another planet. Started watching but ended up being otherwise engaged. Flossie the sheep just looked so darned attractive.

I feel a beqaa valley wine shall be sufficient.

[OutlawPete]

The Scots are clearly capable of making a success should they decide that independence is the way forward. I for one dont think they will though. England just isnt ready to go it alone without Scotland and the Scots are far too decent to leave them to it.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

But will it actually be the Scots voting?

BBC News - Scottish independence: Swinney defends referendum EU voters (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-16895691)

[TomJoad]

From an electoral perspective there is no such thing as a "Scott" nor "English" nor "Welsh" just an eligible voter. Just as it was yesterday and the day before. As for ex pats not being eligible to vote - It is a specious argument, if eligible, they had the option to remain on the electoral register where they were last registered. There was no clamor to change the rules for the 1979 referendum nor for devolution nor for the last UK Westminster election so why now – distraction.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Just seems rather strange that Scots are going to be considering probably the most important decision they will ever make and a fair swathe of those voting will not actually be Scots :confused:

[TomJoad]

Last year the present government was voted in on the UK election (a big decision since the last big decision) - I'd argue that % wise probably greater number of EU nationals across the UK took part in that vote than will on the Scottish indie vote. It is nothing new - in truth I suspect the proportion of EU nationals who exercise their voting right will be small.:hmm:

[rab-k]

There was no clamor to change the rules for the 1979 referendum nor for devolution nor for the last UK Westminster election so why now – distraction.Nor indeed for the 1997 referendum which actually reinstated the Scottish Parliament, albeit in neutered form, after a 290 year adjournment.

As for the Scottish Government; the decision as to who does/does not vote is a simple case of damned if you do - damned if you don't. Whichever group screams "disenfranchised" will be championed by the Anti's who, as ever, seem only capable of generating more heat than light.

One of my former colleagues in the US, Art Sandeson, had a Grandfather who hailed from Portsoy. Perhaps Art should also be given a vote. I'll drop him a line and suggest he write to the Daily Mail who, I'm sure, will be delighted to take up his case.:rolleyes:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

One of my former colleagues in the US, Art Sandeson, had a Grandfather who hailed from Portsoy. Perhaps Art should also be given a vote. I'll drop him a line and suggest he write to the Daily Mail who, I'm sure, will be delighted to take up his case.:rolleyes:

But you could argue that Art's Gran-p has more of a right to vote than Hannah the Hooker from Hanover :p:p:p

[TomJoad]

But you could argue that Art's Gran-p has more of a right to vote than Hannah the Hooker from Hanover :p:p:p


You could but you would be wrong. The last known abode of William Wallace was the Tower of London. Unless he remained on the electoral register in Scotland, then your friend Hannah would still have the more legitimate right to vote. The Scots are not impressed by the title of a profession "the rank is but the guinea stamp', so your friend is ok, hell they will even let an English ex pat vote - so long as they are registered!:O

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

hell they will even let an English ex pat vote - so long as they are registered!:O

Something of this magnitude and any old TD or H can vote, how bizzare :eek:

[TomJoad]

Seldom, you're seeing monsters under the bed, its exactly the same rules used for UK Westminster elections and the world still turns. Some would argue there will be more democracy involved in the process of the indie vote than the process that took us to war! But that's another argument
.:)

[The Stimulator]

Originally posted by TomJoad
Seldom, you're seeing monsters under the bed, its exactly the same rules used for UK Westminster elections and the world still turns. Some would argue there will be more democracy involved in the process of the indie vote than the process that took us to war! But that's another argument
.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gifTomJoad,

Unfortunately it's not going to be the same rules as for as Westminster Election; I could vote in one of those, but even as a proud Scot (by parentage, birthplace, and residence until last month) under the SNP proposals I will not be able to vote in what is one of the most important votes in my countrys history.

It seems totally wrong to me that the model used for any upcoming referendum isn't one that allows as many Scots as possible to vote on the future of their country. Given that no referendum will take place until 2014, and that it seems there is time to include 16 - 17 year olds (no attempt at currying favour with the young there at all obviously) there must be time to work out a more sensible voting model that will allow expat Scots to vote. Who knows how many of us are just longing to come back home when conditions (ie employment opportunites) are right.

[Harley Quinn]

I don't see any issue at all with the franchise directed to those whom the issue affects most of all, ie the residents of Scotland and those who reside elsewhere but have retained an interest as shown by remaining eligible for a postal vote.
If you've moved away for whatever reason and taken your vote with you then that indicates to me where your priorities lie. Anyway given the timescale I'm sure people who feel strongly enough will be able to move back to their country of origin in time to register again if they feel strongly enough about it.


And anyway, what makes someone Scottish, residence or birthplace, red hair or a taste for whisky and salmon?

[LFFC]

On the BBC's Sunday Politics show in Scotland, Mr Swinney was asked whether it was reasonable to let EU nationals vote when 750,000 Scots living south of the border would not be able to vote in the referendum.

I would say that it's completely unreasonable if you're going to use the same rules as a Westminster election.

In a "westminster election", British citizens living overseas can vote for up to 15 years in the constituency they were registered in before leaving the UK.

I can still see a requirement for a massive registration process in which Scots around the world, who currently hold UK passports, notify their desire swap to a Scottish passport if the referendum results in succession. Only those should then get to vote in the referendum.

[Harley Quinn]

R4 reporting this morning that the credit ratings agencies would not rate Scotland as high as the UK, they will pay a higher interest rate on government loans, assuming the UK doesn't fall off its' pedestal (which is a distinct possibility despite what the government keep saying).

[500N]

I see "Scotland have fallen out of the world's top ten rugby nations following last weekend's Six Nations loss at home to England."

Let's hope they improve if they get independence.

[diginagain]

Let's hope they improve if they get independence. Given the Scot's history for philanthropy, the could boost the squad with South Sea Islanders, by allowing the ringers to claim that their Great Grandad once ate a Missionary.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Given the Scot's history for philanthropy, the could boost the squad with South Sea Islanders, by allowing the ringers to claim that their Great Grandad once ate a Missionary.

When it comes to boosting the squad..............

Alex Corbisiero - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Corbisiero)

Mouritz Botha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouritz_Botha)

:p:p:p:p

[diginagain]

So why haven't the SRU cottoned-on?

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

So why haven't the SRU cottoned-on?

Honesty, integrity and an all round sense of fair play per chance :p:p:p

Cue a rush to google Scottish transgressions :E

[diginagain]

Honesty, integrity and an all round sense of fair play per chance

Cue a rush to google Scottish transgressions Not from me. Wrong code altogether.

[TurbineTooHot]

Seldom, no google required if you were watching the match.

Debutant Dave Denton, Scotland's No8, deserved Man of the Match and the best player on the field by a stretch. Spoke with quite a Rhodesian twang.......

Sorry old bean, they're all at it....

[Echo 5]

Dave Denton's mother hailed from Dumfries, that qualifies him.
BTW, English Saxons were stuffed 35-0 by Scotland A last Friday evening, Don't suppose many people know that. :D

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Sorry old bean, they're all at it....

Not sure where I said they weren't :p

[Abraham Zapruder]

England 13 Scotland 6 'Nuff said!

Pakistan 3 England 0

Does the same " 'Nuff said! " also apply I wonder? :p

[TurbineTooHot]

No, but thanks for playing. :p

[Echo 5]

Pakistan 3 England 0
Didn't know Pakistan played rugby. Must have been a boring game with just three points scored. :confused:

[hval]

I have a solution: -

Those in Scotland who wish to have "Independence" abide by Scottish law and Scottish Government.

Those in Scotland who wish to remain part of the UK abide by UK law follow UK Government/ law etc.

Easy. Anyone see any problems?

[MagnusP]

What about those who want to follow Sharia law? :E

[hval]

MagnusP,

They shall live in Glasgow in blocks of flats and be given free Buckie.

[OutlawPete]

North Sea oil gave Scotland 'massive' budget surplus, say Government records - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/6240671/North-Sea-oil-gave-Scotland-massive-budget-surplus-say-Government-records.html)

If the torygraph is accurate, the jocks will be able to give Buckie away on street corners.

[Al R]

Its not all one way you know. ;)

Craig Levein chooses seven English-born players for Scotland squad to face Slovenia - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/scotland/9094557/Craig-Levein-chooses-seven-English-born-players-for-Scotland-squad-to-face-Slovenia.html)

Craig Levein has selected seven English-born players for his squad to face Slovenia in a friendly, and claimed they often make the most passionate Scots.

[sisemen]

Having been thoroughly rubbished by Salmond fans because I'm English it now appears that I am totally entitled to debate this subject

Doncaster 'is part of Scotland' after 900-year-old administrative error comes to light - Yahoo! (http://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html)

And I still don't reckon that "we" should pull out of the Union :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Doncaster should be ejected with or without . . .

[sitigeltfel]

Salmond is always banging on about "Scotlands oil". Will he want to grab a share of any found around the Falklands?

[rab-k]

Salmond is always banging on about "Scotlands oil". Will he want to grab a share of any found around the Falklands?

What's sauce for the goose....

[hval]

Yep,

After all the English have grabbed all the Scottish oil, and wasted the monies on lots of things.

[Courtney Mil]

Yes, you're right. The UK has been using the UK's oil and spending a lot of the money on Scotland.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Yes, you're right. The UK has been using the UK's oil and spending a lot of the money on Scotland.

Absolutely spot on and as the oil is currently a UK asset should Scotland want a divorce then all the shared assets should be on the table :ok:

[glad rag]

Perhaps seldom, but the bargaining table is becoming heavily loaded due to the expanding atomic contamination discoveries both in the North and East of the country.

Just imagine the wailing if it had been found below watford say.....:suspect:

[LFFC]

As I suspected (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/467093-scottish-independence-15.html#post6974522), it looks like Scottish regiments are going to get hit hard by more defence cuts.

REGIMENTAL CRISIS (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/304671/Regimental-crisis)

SCOTLAND’S most famous regiments, including the Black Watch, Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards, are facing the axe under the latest Army reorganisation.

I guess it was obvious really as cutting them now avoids any difficult questions if Scotland votes for independance. :sad:

[Finningley Boy]

Is it not just possible that the reason these Battalions (rather than Regiments) are being considered for the next round of cuts because they are under strength, just like the article says, as oppose to any resignation on the part of the Government to the possbility of Scottish Independence and an attempt to make the formation of an Independent Scottish Force all the more of a problem?

FB:)