Before I even begin...

[arut]

Hi,

I'm in the process of planning to start on my road to PPL, and I wonder if there is any good advice on what to do even before flying to speed up the process of learning.

I've been to several schools and talked to various people (students and instructors) and I've got several conflicting opinions:

a) some recommend reading the books (e.g. Thom) before flying, but some people are dead against it as it might lead to confusion - I've started reading nevertheless
b) most people are dead against using any PC simulators, as it can lead to bad habits forming - I'm tempted to agree on this point and staying away from them
c) is there any point in doing trial lessons in several schools? On one hand it might give a hands-on impression on how they teach, on the other I got some opinions that trial lessons are not really productive learning time and getting them included in your "logged flying time" is stretching it
d) my choice is between Redhill and Biggin Hill. I've been to both and both appear to have good schools, but what about the aerodrome itself, any opinions if it's better to learn at a busy-ish one (Biggin Hill), or a smaller, quieter one (Redhill) (or is my view of these completely reversed)

Thanks in advance for treating a newbie gently :)

Arut

[Genghis the Engineer]

(a) Personally I prefer the Jeremy Pratt books, but definitely get the reading and ground exams out of the way as early as possible, whatever books you use.

(b) I agree with "most people". The sim may have value when you get to nav or instrument awareness, but not much else.

(c) Yes, put the effort into finding the flying school that will suit you best. Learning to fly is a big investment and effort put into finding the best place to put that investment is unlikely to be wasted.

(d) I can't say I've ever had warm feelings about either - but when you do trial lessons, take note of how much time you spend on the ground rather than in the air in a 30 or 60 minute lesson. That's probably the biggest difference that'll affect you, apart from the quality of the bacon sandwiches.

G

[arut]

Thanks, Genghis, but apart from the bacon sandwiches, do you have any experience with the intensity of traffic, attitude of ATC towards students, costs (higher fees at BH) etc.

Also, why no warm feelings towards either? Anything to watch out for? Maybe you could recommend an alternative for someone based in Sevenoaks?

Arut

[Genghis the Engineer]

My experience in that neck of the woods is somewhat limited, or I'd have offered it. Redhill, the few times I've flown from there has always seemed fairly anti-aviation, but that was not recently and it may have improved.

Biggin I don't personally know, but it has a reputation for being expensive and a bit complex. How valid that reputation is, I don't know.

Both are in pretty busy airspace.

You could try Rochester (Skytrek Flying School Rochester - Home page (http://www.skytrekair.com/)) or if you fancy Microlights Stoke (http://www.ravenmad.co.uk/learn-to-fly.htm); neither I know much either, but they're in quieter airspace so may well be cheaper being further from London.

G

[Pilot DAR]

Arut,

As I am on the left side of the Atlantic, I can happily declare to have no local knowledge of UK flight training. That said, there has been immense amounts written about it here, from the whole paying up front issue, through to having multiple/ wasteful/unskilled instructors. Though I'm not sure that the perfect answer is obvious, the posts raise many good issues for your consideration, prior to your making your commitment with a school.

Circulating these important concepts in you mind will probably make you a much more qualified new student, and that is to everyone's benefit, but most of all yours.

Welcome to aviation - it's amazing!

[IO540]

The anti-sim and anti-early-study are standard UK instructor prejudices, which can be argued both ways.

If you have someone who has been a simmer for years, seriously, he will know quite a lot about flying - probably far more about flying to places than somebody with a PPL :) The sim won't teach the finer points of aircraft control but that doesn't matter.

Doing the theory early is OK if you have somebody to help you, otherwise just diving into the books is very sterile. Personally I disliked the PPL books (Trevor Thom) because they contain so much dross, but they have to be used to pass the CAA exams because of special terminology used :) The point is that there is no formal ground school within the PPL so whenever you dive into the books, it will be very tedious if you have to do it alone at home.

It is a good idea to check out a few schools, because they differ a lot. Some are friendly, some are not, some are disorganised, etc. Make sure you have a logbook so every trial lesson can be logged; they will all count towards the 45 hours minimum total time.

[wsmempson]

Arut, you may want to try and find out whether there are any reasons as to why you wouldn't pass an aviation class II medical before spending any money on lessons, as this may dictate what license (licenses) are available to you and what sort of aircraft you might want to fly in the future?

[FlyingSportsman]

Have sent you a PM about Redhill and Biggin :ok:

With Regards to the rest i have to agree with the other posts, I did alot of simming before i went to start my PPL. It honestly depends on how you use the sim, I didn't try and use the sim to teach me how to fly. I bought myself a check list for a C152, sat down, learned it, and practiced doing it using the sim.

I also used to have a go at circuits, again, not 'flying' it, but the details behind it, I.e height, approx. power settings, flaps, e.t.c I didn't once think it would help my flying technique, because it really doesn't!

One thing i have noticed in people is that Simmers generally become fixated on the instrument panel, which is something you need to look out for. Also, where else can you flip a 747 at 600KIAS? :E

Best Of Luck,

FS :ok:

[Cricket23]

I'd recommend Redhill over Biggin to learn at. If you're paying for a lesson, you want to be flying - at Biggin you could end at waiting at the hold whilst they deal with other traffic. It's a busy place.

Having said that, Redhill can be a pain in the winter though - the grass does become waterlogged, although I don't remember ever having a lesson cancelled because of it.

[Grob Queen]

Hi Arut,

Welcome to the wonderful world of aviation...once you start, it becomes your life, your passion and you can't get enough! Enthusiasm, willingness to learn an entirely new skill and determination is a great help to start with. Once you have decided to go for it, you need to spend a lot of time studying as well as being airborne - don't worry though, its enjoyable...!!

I am 34 hours into my PPL training and have not yet done any exams, however, I am studying for Air law and Nav. I use the Jeremy Pratt Books which are good, clear and understandable. What I suggest is that you don't read tehm until you start (they are a bit sterile until you begin to know what you're doing.) Although i would suggest maybe looking into the first lesson of effects of controls as you will then know more of what yur instructor is explaining to you and it won't all be a case of "Wow, what was that?!" when you land. Landing after your fiurst lesson is exhillaration adn amazement at just what you need to know, but don't worry, it will soon become second nature and your instructor will jump out and say "Off you go, one solo circuit" and that is just SUCH a FAB feeling!!! Especially when your friends at the club all come up to congratulate you!

I study by myself from the books and an RAF training manual which is fine, because I jsut ask pilot friends if i need further explanation.

Another tip. Find yourself a flying mentor or two. I have two very good freinds who are both ex-RAF pilots and now civvy pilots who are invaluable help and moral support as they know what I am going through and one talked me out of giving up after I had an incident on landing. Feel free to send me a PM if you want to discuss issues which you don't want public. As I'm going through the same I know what it feels like! And I know that sometimes you wnat to chat t spmeone who isn't your instructor or club friends.

As to club, well, can't help you much there i'm afraid as I belong to an RAF Flying club on my station and that was the obvious choice of place to learn, so I looked no further. AS to busy cct or not...well, sometimes it is , sometimes not. The R/T freaked me out a bit at first, but now I am getting used to it and I like it when its busy because its excellent r/t practice and the Tower are used to students so are fine with me (although if its a tricky situation, my instructor will take teh r/t away from me so I can concentrate on flying "aviate Navigate Communicate"!) But I also like the cct quiet - especially whilst I am flying solo. More time to think without looking out so much (although as PIC YOU always should!)

As to Trial lesson...well, again, I did that flight with the RAF so I Knew that I wanted to fly before I started if you see what help I mean; so again, i'm afraid I can't help with civvy clubs. But DO find an instructor who you get on with...you'll be reliant on them and their judgement and be spending a lot of time in teh cockpit with them! Also ensure you ahev continuity. you need to fly at LEAST once a week otherwise you will get serious skills fade. We were all grounded over last winter, and that was extremely unhelpful.. Then this spring I didn't fly for a number of weeks and again I get skills fade. I would fly every day if I could but try and get at least an hour in a week and also, as soon as you can after you ahve flown, go over your textbooks to read upn on what you ahve just ben learning- I always do and it does help to lock the info in your head. And before a lesson read up on what you will be doing...it helps in teh pre-flight briefing!!

Well, i've waffled on and this is rather an essay, but i hope it helps! Forgive the typos, i'm getting used to this laptop!

Good luck, enjoy yourself...You Have Control!:ok:

GQ

[patowalker]

Headcorn Aerodrome in Kent - EGKH (http://www.headcornaerodrome.co.uk/flying_lessons.html)

[pilot2bornot2b...]

Hi Arut,

I have just started my training two weeks ago, first day didn't fly because of weather :{ On plus side got some ground school free of charge for 90 minutes :)

Anyway I started reading the Air Pilot's Manual Volume 1 in the week up to my 1st actual flight yesterday and I have to say I'm so glad I did as I knew what was going on then. Can't say I agree with those who say it would confuse.

As far as the flight sim is concerned I would also disagree there. I know I'm a newbie and more informed people might say otherwise but I found the flight sim a great help when I had the 1st lesson.

I have only been using it for a month or so with the pedals and yoke but when it came to getting my hands on the real thing; trimming, turning, climbing etc it was a big help. I also knew where to look for the instruments as well.

Agree with those who say it makes you focus on instruments but I find if I look at horizon in sim as in real world it makes it easier to fly.

If using flight sim it is a good idea to get a friend to tilt your chair when you turn and pitch just to get same effect as real thing. :)
(I am joking BTW)

[pilot2bornot2b...]

Hi Arut,

I have started my training two weeks ago, I started reading the Air Pilot's Manual Volume 1 in the week up to my 1st actual flight yesterday and I have to say I'm so glad I did as I knew what was going on then. Can't say I agree with those who say it would confuse.

As far as the flight sim is concerned I would also disagree there. I know I'm a newbie and more informed people might say otherwise but I found the flight sim a great help when I had the 1st lesson.

I have only been using it for a month or so with the pedals and yoke but when it came to getting my hands on the real thing; trimming, turning, climbing etc it was a big help. I also knew where to look for the instruments as well.

Agree with those who say it makes you focus on instruments but I find if I look at horizon in sim as in real world it makes it easier to fly level.

If using flight sim it is a good idea to get a friend to tilt your chair when you turn and pitch just to get the feel of the real thing.:)

(^^ Only joking BTW)

[gingernut]

is there any point in doing trial lessons in several schools?

reckon that's the best strategy, go with the feeling you get.

Don't pay too much up front.:)

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

I’d second patowalker’s nomination of Headcorn. It’s a bit further by road than Redhill, but it offers a variety of things going on, including aerobatics, parachuting as well as the usual light aircraft coming and going. Although it’s a grass airfield, it’s well drained and maintained, so usually keeps going through the winter when some other grass airfields have to curtail some of the flying operations.

Another advantage is that it’s relatively clear of controlled airspace, so less far to fly to the practice area for the initial part of the training. Later on when you are doing navigation exercises you won’t be bumping along the sides of the Heathrow and Gatwick controlled airspace. With the upcoming 2012 Olympic airspace restrictions I believe they will have a route to clear the restricted zone.

Several friends learned to fly at Headcorn. XX, who appears on aviation forums from time to time, learned there a few years ago. Now Mr. XX has just passed his GFT and is eagerly awaiting the arrival of his new licence.

It may be worth half a day of your time to go along and look the place over. Perhaps have a trial lesson there as well. Where ever you decide to learn, enjoy it, it’s great fun.

[Grob Queen]

What I didn't say about flight Sims was (and I have never used one so this is just a tip I got from a GR4 pilot) is that they are actually sometimes TOO realistic...in other words you can crash a Sim whereas in the real thing you can often get out of it because you are in control...not the computer! Just a thought for the pro-simmers!

[funfly]

Don't do it. You will be committed to spending all your hard earned savings on flying and lessons and maybe you will eventually buy an aeroplane that you can't afford. Your wife and family will starve and sit at home sulking while you are away having fun. If you are single you will believe that all the girls will fall for you when you are a pilot, but you won't have the time/money to be interested and you will smell of aviation fuel from the fuel tester you carry in your pocket. You will spend even more money on gadgets like GPS which will cause quarrels between you and the 'old timers' in the cafe. You will eat nothing but bacon sandwiches for your lunch. When you have qualified your friends will want free flights but will be scared when they get to your aircraft, however people will think that you are rich. You will scare yourself a few times doing things that you never tell anyone else and you will NEVER need to know what a red flare or a flashing green lamp means.
Have a good time anyway, good flying 'cos I know you will do it.

[tacpot]

Funfly has summed up recreational GA in UK much beter than I could! :O:O:O

[niceday2700classic]

I finished my PPL recently and would wholeheartedly recommend EGLM if you can stand driving that far. Three long grass runways (never a problem with crosswind limits) which drain well, although they aren't very flat so that keeps you on your toes.

The best part about learning at a dedicated GA airfield (something that Biggin is definitely not) is that you can almost always just power up and go. Somewhere like Biggin you will often need to wait in a queue to line up, and jet/commercial traffic will always get priority over PPL training flights. Then when you're in the circuit you'll get told to orbit to allow something else to join, or be told to go around so that a jet can line up and take off. I've heard plenty of stories of students spending £200 on a lesson and getting two circuits in.

The counter-argument people make is that those who train at 'big' airfields with full ATC end up being better on the radio. I'm not sure I agree with this - I find the RT at controlled airfields is just 'different' rather than harder. If anything one could say it's easier, since a lot of decisions get made for you - you just have to read back and comply.

Regards reading up beforehand, my instinct is that if you're paying £200 for a lesson then you'd be barmy not to do all the reading/prep that you can in advance. Further on down the course (nav) it amazed me when my instructor told me that lots of other students turned up for nav-ex lessons without having planned the route or having looked at weather/notams beforehand. Why would anyone pay £200 an hour and not do everything they could to make sure they got the most out of it?

[arut]

Geez, funfly, your post should be used by psychiatrists as the best example of reverse psychology known to man :ok:

[nick ritter]

Arut

Regarding the two airfields that you are looking at – make inquires about the landing fees

Are these included with your membership fee of a flying club at those airports? Or do you need to pay each time you land etc? This could make a considerable difference in your decision making process

I am lucky in that the club that I fly from has free landing fees for members (built into the annual club membership fee) but I understand that not all clubs and airfields are like this and certainly a consideration to be aware of

The comments above are also correct in that you want to get an idea of how long you will be messing around waiting on the ground before you actually go anywhere. Most places charge from brakes off to brakes on, and if you are in a long queue waiting at the hold for a biz jet to come in you can end up paying a lot of money to sit around on the ground

Regards, Nick

[The500man]

The best part about learning at a dedicated GA airfield (something that Biggin is definitely not) is that you can almost always just power up and go. Somewhere like Biggin you will often need to wait in a queue to line up, and jet/commercial traffic will always get priority over PPL training flights. Then when you're in the circuit you'll get told to orbit to allow something else to join, or be told to go around so that a jet can line up and take off.

Biggin is actually a nice place to fly. You won't generally be waiting in a queue but there will be insanely busy times (usually in the afternoon). Jet traffic does get priority but you won't be told to orbit to "let something else join", most jet traffic will fly straight in on the ILS. You certainly won't ever be told to go around for the benefit of a departing jet. You may find you are told to land and return to the hold for jet arrivals or if there is someone flying circuits in a jet - which isn't very likely - before being able to continue.

The benefits are a HUGE tarmac runway, self-service refuelling (no more bowser chasing!), ATC, and... oh yeah... all that jet traffic (as it will be good experience for you to mix with commercial traffic, in case you actually want to fly somewhere, particularly abroad where English speaking airports tend to be the bigger ones!).

The biggest down side, other than the place being on a hill and therefore a bit closer to the clouds, is the cost of flying there. 10 landings cost over £200! 10 circuits over £70.

You get what you pay for though... did I mention the HUGE runway? ;)

[neilgeddes]

Redhill's a beautiful grass airfield especially in the Summer, like this week.
Biggin has the educational mix of traffic, on-airfield customs, approach aids and late opening for night flying.
Both are great, just check out a few clubs and pricing. Enjoy!

[Conventional Gear]

Regarding Sims, there are sims, and then there are sims.

Personally I quite easily get in an aircraft after a 15 month lay-off and fly as well as I did for the GST.

This is because I have a sim that completely as possible replicates both the aircraft I fly and also the world around me.

There are a number of 'negative' transfers that can occur. For example a long term simmer may be transfixed on the instruments during an early VFR training flight when they should be looking outside. Most of this is played up a lot though and if you are aware of it before starting in the real world it isn't much of an issue.

However, as you are starting flying training and considering a sim as an aid you can avoid most of the problems.

If you go for it buy FSX, invest in VFR photo scenery for your training area so landmarks are replicated (Horizon and Just Flight both provide VFR photo scenery, I prefer Just Flight's version). Get a decent model of the aircraft you are training in (not one provide by MS) and budget at least 2K for a decent PC to run it, rudder pedals, yoke and head tracking.

Sims at this level are very useful, be it basic co-ordination, nailing circuits or just keeping your hand in when the weather cancels 4 lessons in a row. It cannot totally replicate control inputs, but then again you can't pause or replay a real aeroplane and figure where you went wrong. The 'feel' of every real aeroplane is different in any case and I've never found it to be a problem at all that the controls are not exactly the same. Gross co-ordination is the same.

I wasn't much of a simmer when I started flying training btw, to this day I've never done a 'fantasy' flight, it's enough for me to use it to compliment real world flying. I was also advised by a guy who was evaluating FSX systems for RAF basic training - the value is there and much of what you gain from a sim is actually to do with how cleverly you choose to use it and how far you replicate the many routines that make up flying. Just being able to sit in a virtual cockpit and run through a checklist is a real bonus for example. As is making a radio call at the right time etc.

In all looking at the initial cost and what it has probably saved me during initial training and later regaining currency, I would say it was a good investment.

[arut]

@nick ritter

Which club do you fly with? All the ones I have researched so far have the landing and circuit fees separate. As far as I can tell the membership fee goes to cover the admin and the insurance (probably)

[niceday2700classic]

Biggin is actually a nice place to fly. You won't generally be waiting in a queue but there will be insanely busy times (usually in the afternoon). Jet traffic does get priority but you won't be told to orbit to "let something else join", most jet traffic will fly straight in on the ILS. You certainly won't ever be told to go around for the benefit of a departing jet. You may find you are told to land and return to the hold for jet arrivals or if there is someone flying circuits in a jet - which isn't very likely - before being able to continue.

The benefits are a HUGE tarmac runway, self-service refuelling (no more bowser chasing!), ATC, and... oh yeah... all that jet traffic (as it will be good experience for you to mix with commercial traffic, in case you actually want to fly somewhere, particularly abroad where English speaking airports tend to be the bigger ones!).

The biggest down side, other than the place being on a hill and therefore a bit closer to the clouds, is the cost of flying there. 10 landings cost over £200! 10 circuits over £70.

You get what you pay for though... did I mention the HUGE runway?

I'm sure Biggin is a lovely place to fly. I may have had the details wrong but training at an airport of that sort you will, on a regular basis, be asked to sit doing nothing on the ground (paying flying rates) whilst the tower prioritizes an aircraft that those who run the business consider more important.

And landing fees? Crikey. Not even included in the flying costs? That's going to seriously add up if you find you need a few hours of circuits to master the flare!

Most smaller airfields have self-service fuel don't they?

Don't know if a huge tarmac runway is a training benefit? How will those who trained that way manage when they come to land on a 500m bumpy grass strip? If you want a huge runway with a cheap landing fee and no traffic anywhere to be seen, go to Manston ;-)

[niceday2700classic]

@ arut

If a Flying Club charges an annual fee for membership and then you get charged for home landings on top of this, then you kind of have to wonder what you're actually getting for your annual fee. Admin and insurance can be covered from their normal operating income (instruction, hangarage, parking, visitor's landing fees, engineering).

I view it like a golf club. My golf club charges me an annual subscription for membership. For that, I can use the course as much as I like. If they started asking me to pay every time I played, then I'd be wondering what on earth I was getting for the subscription.

The key to getting around this is to go a place where the club/flying school owns the airfield. If you go somewhere where the organisation is one of many tenants at the airfield, and you still have to pay for landings, then I don't see how they can justify charging for any sort of 'membership'. All you then get for that membership fee is the right to spend more money.

[Flamin_Squirrel]

I'm sure Biggin is a lovely place to fly. I may have had the details wrong but training at an airport of that sort you will, on a regular basis, be asked to sit doing nothing on the ground (paying flying rates) whilst the tower prioritizes an aircraft that those who run the business consider more important.I fly from Biggin (didn't qualify that long ago, ~60 hrs TT), usually on Sundays, and could count on one hand how many times that's happened. Maybe it's more common during the week, but I've seldom found it to be a problem.

[Grob Queen]

Wow, paying landing fees at your home airfield...if i'd had to, the amount of touch and goes i did before I mastered cct flying, i'd be skint!!

I know it would be a trip around the M25 :eek: but try looking into the RAF Halton Flying Club. I hate to think what Clubs around Sevenoaks charge - frightening I would imagine! Membership will be much cheaper, as will the hourly rate, landing is free for club members, ATC is good, the level of training is second to none... and yes, they welcome civilian members (well, the club i'm in does!)