SOUTHAMPTON

[adfly]

While its apparently not fully released there are a lot of routes which are rather baffling. If the sun routes stay as they are, then Flybe really are making a mockery of this side of their SOU operation. 1 weekly Q400 to Palma makes me wonder why they bothered serving it at all! Verona is 2 weekly all summer compared to 4 last year and Bordeaux is 1 weekly, despite operating daily during August of this year. Hopefully the later releases will go some way to resolve this, although I shall remain pessimistic.

I echo the comments on this being an excellent opportunity for Volotea/another airline to pick up the slack here. Ryanair must see this as delightful news for their BOH operation.

Elsewhere there are some improvements, Edinburgh and Glasgow both increase to 6 daily flights on weekdays, which is the most frequent they have been in a long time. Manchester has a similar frequency, and Newcastle increase to 4 daily flights on weekdays. Amsterdam stays at 4 daily, losing the extra flight operating over the winter season while Paris CDG increases to 2 daily flights.

Finally, it looks like Munich has been dropped, which is good news for BMI Regional, as 3 daily flights from 2 airlines was probably a little excessive for a recently started route.

[SWBKCB]

Every time a come to the SOU thread I end up thinking "Careful what you wish for"

If the sun routes stay as they are, then Flybe really are making a mockery of this side of their SOU operation.

This seems to indicate that you think BE are turning their backs on a gold mine - maybe it's the pax making a mockery of the operation?

[Rivet Joint]

The contempt in which BE show SOU is disgusting. The three pillars of their operation were always EXT SOU and BHX and are the reason they even exist. Now their operation at BHX is receiving competition in LS and FR it would be nice for SOU and EXT to welcome some competition.

I think arguably LS and FR are not suited to SOU which is partly why BE have gotten away with it so many years as no one else has a fleet suited for it. It is also a shame that V7 are swapping the 717 for the A319 which has 150 seats and is probably too big. If someone could order some C-series jets then SOU would blossom. Can't see any domestic airlines ordering it though. Maybe U2? A perfect operator for SOU would be WX with their Russian superjets. They are the perfect size and have a great range. They also do not appear to know what to do with them at the moment apart from open a token base at SEN which will never work.

SOU is a goldmine waiting to be tapped to its full potential. BM and KL have shown the first signs of this. Great to hear BE are giving up on MUC. They never would have kept it up. Congrats to BM!

[SWBKCB]

The contempt in which BE show SOU is disgusting

See what I mean - sounds like they've run of with somebodies girlfriend.

[RW20]

River Joint
Can you explain why Volotea A319 is prehaps to big?,is it that Southampton Runway length prohibits a profitable Palma operation,or that the airline won't fill the seats?.Either way if true then Volotea operation from Southampton will be short lived!.

[adfly]

SWBKCB - I was not inferring that SOU is a never ending goldmine! But I struggle to believe that after many years of sustaining a basically daily service to the likes of ALC, AGP, FAO and PMI that suddenly there is only demand for a couple of flights a week to ALC, or one to PMI on the Q400. Just this year there was a daily flight to each of the latter two and I really doubt Brexit has caused a sudden 80% drop in demand for people wanting to visit said destinations...

[SWBKCB]

But after many years of operating, BE will know how much they have been making.

[BOHEuropean]

Their summer schedule isn't fully released yet. I think we need to chill out here a minute.

Flybe is refocusing its efforts on shorter frequent hops. Jets are no longer based at SOU, it would only be natural there would be fewer longer sectors. If the operation had made money in its previous form for Flybe then the jets wouldn't have left.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more frequency added on these sunshine routes. At least now people can start booking themselves on the route.

Düsseldorf is a new base and hasn't had its flights all put on sale yet. I'd wait a few more weeks before passing final judgement on next years operation.

[Rivet Joint]

Yet more fog disruption today. Still no flights seem to be departing even now. This is simply not acceptable, can someone tell the management at the airport that we are now in the 21st century? Meanwhile BOH is able to soak up all the diversions and operate adequately. There are planes landing on the side of Mount Everest and at the North Pole and meanwhile SOU can't handle 90% of its flights because some fog. Pathetic. Pull your finger out and invest some money.

[RW20]

River Joint
It's simply not possible to improve bad weather operations at Southampton with the limitations of the ILS and approach lighting.The airport can't even accomplish cat 1 minima,with a antiquated RVR of 800 mtrs
Minima,I suspect it's the highest minima of regional airports in the UK.
Bournemouth however has full cat3 and can and will take our diversions in the poorest of weather!

[KelvinD]

BOH soaking up all the diversions? Well, 2 diversions from Southampton actually ( 1 x Flybe and 1 x KLM). A couple of inbound Flybe flights actually arrived early. It is, as you say, foggy. What do you expect SOU to do with any new investment? Buy some magic fog dispensers? 50 miles up the road a much bigger and busier operation is seeing approx 10% of flight cancellations and lots of delays (up to 80% of departures are delayed). And the fog up there was not as bad as it was in Hampshire.

[SWBKCB]

With such a thorough cost-benefit analysis, the business case for investment looks compelling! :ok:

[Phalconphixer]

Seem to recall a time not too many years ago when Bath Travel, later Palmair, contracted Princess Air with a 146 to fly Sunshine routes out of SOU and even that aircraft had problems in 'hot' weather taking off with a full fuel load and full complement of pax... I can recall at least one occasions when the aircraft departed with 50% fuel and 50% pax, flew down to BOH where it boarded the rest of the pax who had been bussed down, and topped off the fuel...
Also seem to recall that that happened a couple of time last year with the Embraers on the Spain routes...
Southampton was, is and always will be limited by its runway length.
BOH will always be limited by the narrow mindedness of the various councils in the area and the airlines... It's a Catch 22 situation the councils will not improve the road / rail transportation links until it is justified by an increase in air traffic... and the airlines will not increase their routes and services until the transportation links are improved...
Getting back toSouthampton though... why is there no direct public transport link from Southampton Airport to Portsmouth... currently the only direct route is private car or taxi... no buses, no trains, Nada...

[gkmeech]

SOU is susceptible to fog simply because of its location in the Hampshire Basin. It is almost at sea level (02 threshold 33 feet AMSL), and it has the River Itchen running alongside it. This morning the RVR was 125 meters.

Investment will not fix this.

As for the point about airlines not being able to run the sunshine routes with larger equipment, as I have said before A319 and A320 aircraft are entirely suitable for operation out of SOU to Spain and Majorca, as they have proven in the past.

[Rivet Joint]

All valid points but flawed reasoning. Investment may not solve the problem but it will improve it. I suspect the airside at SOU has not seen any significant investment since the airport was Established back at the start of the 90s. That's over 15 years of neglect, the CAA are going to stop supporting their ILS in the not too distant future! How embarrassing is that? It's like someone still operating Microsoft Windows 3.0! It's very simple, sort out out a new ILS (prefarably one that features technology from this decade :rolleyes:), install new landing lights, build the extended runway runoff area to the north (this can be done within the airport's existing boundary), build the taxiways that will stop aircraft having to backtrack every time they land (even third world airports don't have such nonsense). Before anyone brings up the expense, a certain airport spent £40mil (yes £40mil :eek:) on new infrastructure and there was no real carrot on the end of a stick to make them do it. I would argue SOU does have that carrot on the stick, in fact they paint their planes the same colour.

[stewyb]

Spot on Rivet!

[Flitefone]

The better comparison for SOU is LCY which routinely loses multiple flights each year through fog with many delays, cancellations and diversions. CAA stats tell a sorry tale.

The constraint issue at SOU and LCY is similar, the runway length and the local terrain and obstruction characteristics (hills & buildings) prevent use of more sophisticated precision approach aids. This is primarilly a physical not a financial constraint.

The proportion of flights cancelled at SOU due fog over a year is tiny. The cost to the airport is very small.

Any investment made at the airport would far better go to a parallel taxiway and more stands, than improved approach aids. This would partly address the bigger business issue; south of England airport capacity during summer.

However, investment near term is highly unlikely. Glasgow not SOU is the jewel in the airport owners crown.

FF

[garycordall]

Anyone know why yesterday's Alc flight was cancelled?
The Man inbound to Sou diverted to Bournemouth due fog.
My auntie was due to be going back to Spain on this so I had a little look on flight radar around lunch time,to see that it was well on its way.
I assumed she was on it,only to today find out that pax were put up overnight at Ext and flown out today! She's ex BA so went Lhr-Mad-Alc.
So question is did BE fly it down empty from Bournemouth?

[SOUSpotter96]

Does anyone have any info as to why a few Aircraft are circling around the airports air space?. Bulb change needed or something on the runway?.

[Guest 112233]

is Fog. RVR 900m runway 20

See FR24 for details Vis 2000 Metres at 19:50 UTC.

CAT III

[gkmeech]

The RVR has been up and down all evening, between 450 and 1500. Some flights getting in at 1st, 2nd, or 3rd attempt. Two flights diverted to Birmingham. As I write this there are 3 flights awaiting the next improvement.

[SOUSpotter96]

Thank you for the info, I didn't see any fog earlier, so it wasn't clear as to why they were.

[Wycombe]

As I write this there are 3 flights awaiting the next improvement.

As far as I could see, at least 2 of those also diverted (to BHX).

One suspects that with a proper even CAT 1 ILS they would have probably got in eventually, and many people (pax, crews, and the folks who stayed on at SOU after usual closing) would not have been inconvenienced. Not to mention aircraft being out of place for this morning's first departures.

I love flying from SOU (and will be again in Jan), but it needs more resilience.

[adfly]

Passengers were up an impressive 15% in September and 16% in October. Whilst there is no longer a rolling year figure included in the CAA stats I would hazard a guess that it is now above last year. Domestic routes seem to mostly show some fair growth, although Leeds and Aberdeen are down quite a bit on last year, I presume Eastern have reduced the frequency of their flights compared to last year?

Not sure exactly when Toulon/Biarritz finished in September so I won't try and estimate the loads on them but the numbers seem reasonable.

Route - Sep/Oct

Cork - 39 pax 54%/36 pax 50% (Based on 5 weekly flights, seems to have performed consistently pretty well)
Dusseldorf - 47 pax 60%/51 pax 65% (Seems to have finally picked up nicely!)
Lyon - 24pax 30%/29 pax 37% (Imagine the regional air subsidy is compensating for these loads in part)
Munich - 31 pax/26 pax (Flybe started 01/09, figures suggest 2 carriers is probably too much for this route)
Paris CDG - 42 pax 54%/48 pax 61% (Increasing to double daily next summer)

[stewyb]

adfly

Rolling year stats are included in latest CAA data and SOU is showing a 4.1% increase for 12mths to end Oct '16 of 1,886,209

[adfly]

Good find stweyb! I would guess that we will see just over 1.9 million passengers over the whole year based on that, and in the interview below with the MD, he seems to think that numbers will pass 2 million next year.

Link for anyone interested: Flying high in the Solent (http://www.bqlive.co.uk/2016/12/12/flying-high-in-the-solent/)

[Rivet Joint]

The same grinning goon who has overseen a total lack of investment in the airport. Seems like he has been there a long time now. Anyone think it's time he is replaced with someone with some ambition?

[vectisman]

River Joint you never seem to have a good thing to say about anybody or anything. Southampton appears to be doing quite well. Is it envy that makes you want you see a man lose his job?

[canberra97]

vectisman

Here, Here excellent reply and very truthful indeed.

[Rivet Joint]

Vectisman: That is simply not true, in fact I am a vocal supporter of SOU and believe it to be an untapped goldmine. If I blow of some steam at the frustration that SOU could have EZY operating a small base serving some useful destinations if some long overdue investment was finally forthcoming then that is understandable.

My personal view (not to mention of others on this forum):

- There is room to extend runway to the north (within the airport's existing demise). If I was a truly ambitious MD then I would be looking to buy the railway works and extend further but no just a little bit extra within the existing demise.

- More stands are needed to accommodate numerous larger aircraft to be in at the same time (this can be achieved in many different ways). Buy the RM depot? Relocate that ridiculously placed car park? Build some stands on the land to the North West?

- Planes having to backtrack down the runway is not only an unnecessary constraint on operations but also dangerous (not to mention embarrassing). A strip of tarmac is not expensive. Spain builds whole airports in the middle of deserts for no good reason. Are we less ambitious than them? BOH had 40mil ploughed into it. Again is SOU less ambitious than them? We are talking about some bloody tarmac.

- The ILS is so ancient that it’s no longer being managed by the aviation governing body (we are not talking about Apple here, bloody NATS who themselves are hardly at the forefront of technology) Apparently this year. Has it been turned off?

- The runway lights are crap. You get the picture and all these points have been talked to death.

Seeing as my opinions (supported by other people) are too honest for you Vectisman, let me highlight a pertinent (and quite hilarious) extract from the article: -

"before taking up the planning and development director role at Southampton Airport, which was based around completing the airport’s master plan. Nine years on, he has never looked back".

Anyone who has studied the master plan will tell you that not a single element of their master plan has ever been implemented and now it all makes sense why (he was in charge). I think it would have been more appropriate for the writer to have said "Nine years on, he has never looked forward". There are numerous other gems in the article as well, such as him claiming credit for investment in the highways and the railway station. Like I said a few pages ago, the only meaningful investment has been in the retail element and the parking (i.e the two things that fleece the passengers). I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise

[destinationsky]

Vectisman: That is simply not true, in fact I am a vocal supporter of SOU and believe it to be an untapped goldmine. If I blow of some steam at the frustration that SOU could have EZY operating a small base serving some useful destinations if some long overdue investment was finally forthcoming then that is understandable.

My personal view (not to mention of others on this forum):

- There is room to extend runway to the north (within the airport's existing demise). If I was a truly ambitious MD then I would be looking to buy the railway works and extend further but no just a little bit extra within the existing demise.

- More stands are needed to accommodate numerous larger aircraft to be in at the same time (this can be achieved in many different ways). Buy the RM depot? Relocate that ridiculously placed car park? Build some stands on the land to the North West?

- Planes having to backtrack down the runway is not only an unnecessary constraint on operations but also dangerous (not to mention embarrassing). A strip of tarmac is not expensive. Spain builds whole airports in the middle of deserts for no good reason. Are we less ambitious than them? BOH had 40mil ploughed into it. Again is SOU less ambitious than them? We are talking about some bloody tarmac.

- The ILS is so ancient that it’s no longer being managed by the aviation governing body (we are not talking about Apple here, bloody NATS who themselves are hardly at the forefront of technology) Apparently this year. Has it been turned off?

- The runway lights are crap. You get the picture and all these points have been talked to death.

Seeing as my opinions (supported by other people) are too honest for you Vectisman, let me highlight a pertinent (and quite hilarious) extract from the article: -

"before taking up the planning and development director role at Southampton Airport, which was based around completing the airport’s master plan. Nine years on, he has never looked back".

Anyone who has studied the master plan will tell you that not a single element of their master plan has ever been implemented and now it all makes sense why (he was in charge). I think it would have been more appropriate for the writer to have said "Nine years on, he has never looked forward". There are numerous other gems in the article as well, such as him claiming credit for investment in the highways and the railway station. Like I said a few pages ago, the only meaningful investment has been in the retail element and the parking (i.e the two things that fleece the passengers). I am more than happy to be convinced otherwise
I'm not sure where you are getting your facts from Rivet Joint and I do agree, you are very negative about the airport despite being a supporter as you claim?

Can you clear one thing up for me, where are you getting your facts about the ILS? The existing ILS was implemented in 2010 along with an AGL upgrade which included stop bars. It is to CAT1 standard with minima comparable to other CAT1's . It is still supported and it isn't owned by NATS. I am guessing that you are referring to SAM DVOR which is still supported by NATS. It will be decommissioned in the coming years as part of a national project. This will have an affect on the VOR approach for 02 only.

The back track issue does not currently have an impact on landing or departure rates with the current volumes of traffic. It is not ideal but you take a look at what would need to be moved to allow for a continuous taxiway - ILS Glide slope, DME, Fuel farm etc.... It is not as simple as laying a strip of tarmac. You could have a runway crossing and continue the taxiway up the eastern side but that has separate issues relating to runway incursions risk and getting power to the other side. All of a sudden doesn't seem that simple when you apply some logic to it?! How many deserts are there in Spain where the Spanish government have built an airport for it not to go bust...?

Buying rail yards... can you imagine how much that would cost!? you seem to think that AGS has an endless wad of cash.... The airport could levy a development fee but look at the outrage that causes!

[canberra97]

destinationsky

A very good account indeed, I was going to reply to Riverjoints post but I didn't see the point as he clearly has his views even if they are rather negative at times.

To him it's just a bit of 'bloody' Tarmac but clearly it's more than Tarmac he forgets about power supply, lighting, drainage, earth movements, etc he clearly doesn't have a clue to costs otherwise he wouldn't have suggested the airport buying the rail yards and it's AGS that pull the purse strings not the Airport Director.

[TCAS FAN]

Destinationsky

"The back track issue does not currently have an impact on landing or departure rates with the current volumes of traffic. "

I can speak from personal experience - it does!

Not only does the gap between successive arrivals need to be extend beyond the absolute minima of 3-4 miles (minimum permitted longitudinal radar separation and wake vortex), quite frequently with RWY 20 in use a log jam occurs with pending departures at Hold B1, preventing pushbacks from some adjacent Stands and arrivals being able to taxi onto Stand.

[destinationsky]

Destinationsky

"The back track issue does not currently have an impact on landing or departure rates with the current volumes of traffic. "

I can speak from personal experience - it does!

Not only does the gap between successive arrivals need to be extend beyond the absolute minima of 3-4 miles (minimum permitted longitudinal radar separation and wake vortex), quite frequently with RWY 20 in use a log jam occurs with pending departures at Hold B1, preventing pushbacks from some adjacent Stands and arrivals being able to taxi onto Stand.

Agreed, it does stop push backs occasionally from the higher stands but this certainly does not warrant spending millions in putting a full length taxiway. It doesn't happen every hour of every day. The business case is not there. Even if you consider the minimal extra fuel burn. The traffic levels would have to be close to full runway capacity to even consider spending the money.

So about the ILS, you've still not responded to that?

You can speak from personal experience but believe it or not, so can I. And I'm pretty sure that my experience allows me to look at it more objectively than most.

[TCAS FAN]

destinationsky

Merely correcting the statement that the backtracks do not currently impact on landing or departure rates, no mention of business case justification for a taxiway.

Sorry I may have missed something, to what ILS comment are you awaiting a response to?

[destinationsky]

Apologies, the ILS comment was aimed at Rivet Joint!

I am just interested to know where the information came from that the ILS is unsupported and not to CAT1 standard

[TCAS FAN]

destinationsky

Sorry to muscle in on your exchange with Rivet Joint, I too am curious as to his "unsupported" statement. Was not the Localiser replaced about 2-3 years ago?

If my memory is correct the Glidepath may have been replaced around 10-15 years ago when a new antenna was installed due to a decision to build a new car park, where the northern taxiway should have gone!

Consider it doubtful that NATS would countenance trying to maintain an unsupported navaid, unless they possibly own all of the spares for it.

[RW20]

Has Flybe completed the Summer 17 sun routes from Southampton?,if so it seems a big reduction in flights,and there seems no further developments on these routes from other airlines, surely a missed opportunity!,that can only benefit rival airports like Bournemouth.

[MARKEYD]

At the moment it looks like the E195 comes down from Manchester operates daily to either FAO , ALC or AGP then operates back up to Manchester where its needed up there in the afternoon with the same crew all the way round

This year I believe there was a lot of positioning crew up and down to MAN to operate these routes as no based crew out of SOU to operate the E195 so it could well be cost as well that only allows 1 rotation out of SOU next year

[stewyb]

In which case move over Flybe and let some one else have a go!

[Groundloop]

Anyone else is perfectly free to have a go if they want - but not many seem to want!!

[stewyb]

We all know that all that's needed is a further 450ft of runway length and larger apron!

[Jn14:6]

It would appear that BEE have put a Thursday FAO service into the booking engine. More frequency to come maybe?
It appears to be a yield management exercise, announcing flights one at a time, then seeing how well they fill up?

[inOban]

I would expect that a local tour operator has prebooked enough of the capacity to guarantee the viability of the service.

[adfly]

As far as I know that Thursday Faro flight has been there since the release of the schedule, Faro seems to initially continue from the winter at 2 weekly, then the Thursday flight disappears during June/July before returning for the summer holidays.

Hopefully we will see some changes in the next couple of weeks as we reach the peak holiday booking season, as I would be very surprised if the current number of flights on any of the Spain/Portugal remain as they are for next summer.

[canberra97]

inOban

Local tour operator, it's not the case but what 'local' tour operator would be in a situation to do that, we don't have any 'local' tour operators in our area capable of doing that.

The only tour operator that comes to mind is TUI and they are not offering Faro from SOU in 2017.

Adfly sums it up well enough!

[inOban]

In Scotland and NE England there is a large travel agency (Barrhead Travel) which, apart from selling holidays from the major tour operators, organises a few on its own account. And of course there are a number of specialist operators which like to offer their customers flights from a wide selection of local airports.

[canberra97]

I am fully aware of Barrhead Travel and I know that they are HUGE in Scotland and the North East but we don't have a comparible company like Barrhead Travel in our region especially one that has a tour operation of their own. The only company locally that was capable of doing that was Bath Travel as in Palmair but they stopped serving SOU over 10 years ago and was more of a BOH operation.

As I posted before Adfly sums it up well.

[Rivet Joint]

No flights operating again because of fog. Meanwhile BOH is fine and taking the diversions. Can anyone confirm if conditions are any better in BOH? If I was BE I would be seriously annoyed by SOU's complete lack of effort/investment to try and ease the problem. It happens so frequently! BOH only need to get a direct link to the motorway and I reckon BE would move their base. Of course the pension fund that own SOU and the grinning goon they have installed as MD won't have smelt the coffee by then. Meanwhile we all suffer and SOU just put their hands in the air saying what do you want us to do about it? Pathetic.

[Expressflight]

Basically it's because SOU has CAT I ILS and BOH has CAT III. That will not change at SOU due to the physical characteristics of the airfield unfortunately. So not really "pathetic" on the part of the owners. It's hardly as if SOU is the only airfield affected today and these types of event are mercifully rare.

[Le Tirer]

The RVR at Southampton has remained between 175m and 225m all day so far. The RVR at BOH has fluctuated much more and has been above 400m for much of the day. Even if SOU had CAT III I don't think anything much would have got in today. I don't believe the Flybe DHC8s and Eastern Saab 2000s are CAT III equipped. Certainly the last 3 FlyBe diversions all made CAT II approaches into BOH. An Eastern Saab attempted to divert to BOH but broke off the approach when the RVR dropped as only CAT 1 equipped.

[SWBKCB]

Even if SOU had CAT III I don't think anything much would have got in today. I don't believe the Flybe DHC8s and Eastern Saab 2000s are CAT III equipped.

Stop spoiling things by quoting facts!

[gkmeech]

It is true that the Flybe Dash 8s are not CAT III equipped, some are not CAT II which is why one of them broke off approach at BOH this morning and returned to the SAM hold for a while

[RW20]

It seems that the airport has to close periodically for 30 minutes due to controller shortages today.This being brought on by sickness.I believe this occured recently ,is there such a small controller staff that when there is one off sick the airport operation is compromised?

[stewyb]

Flybe to return to BOU :ugh::D

[LBIA]

The Eastern Saab2000 has diverted and returned back to LBA.
The passengers are going to be coached all way up to Leeds instead of flying.

[Rivet Joint]

Yes the facts currently point to it being a hard fix but at the end of the day an airport being closed for a full day because of some fog is pathetic. Fog is predicted tomorrow which means two days where time stands still and the airport just doesn't function. Yes SOU is not LHR but it is also not some dirt strip out in Timbuktu. The airport is hugely important to the local economy and if some trees need to be cut down to increase the environment in which it can operate safely then the local authority should be facilitating that. If the shed near the railway works is too tall then it shouldn't have been given permission. All buildings of any relevant height are assessed prior to permission being granted. Someone messed up there or maybe the airport didn't have the foresight to think that down the line that would be an obstacle for its growth. I suspect the latter. We are talking about people who built a car park so close to their runway that it affects their operations. I mean you seriously couldn't make it up! What's key to our business? The runway and stands where the aircraft which are the defining feature of our business depend on. No, the car park which makes us a few quid in the short term is more important. That's what grates the most for me personally, the sheer lack of ambition and short sightedness that is constantly undermining the growth of their business. I am sorry but it cannot be a coincidence that the grinning goon has been in charge throughout. Some change is much needed but the nature of a pension fund is that they want a safe investment. It doesn't matter the the returns are small as long as they are dependable. It's a shame someone did not step in when it was up for sale who would have speculated to accumulate. If someone is willing to spend 50mil at BOH then we should expect the same for SOU. Can you imagine what could be achieved at SOU with that sort of money.

[SWBKCB]

But as Le Tirer has pointed out above, you're suggesting investments that your customers don't want/can't use?

[Reversethrustset]

No amount of investment at SOU will enable aircraft to land there in 150m visibility.

[Rivet Joint]

Fog seems to have cleared up but various flights still cancelled. Can anyone explain why these flights are cancelled? Düsseldorf is cancelled for the second day in a row. Not great from BE yet again. I suspect it is to lessen the strain on their schedule momentarily. They do seem to cancel flights at the drop of a hat to suit their own needs. Disgraceful attitude towards their customers. Another reason why investment is needed in SOU, it would rid us of this tin pot airline.

[cornishsimon]

Considering where all the aircraft ended up yesterday I suspect much is down to having assets and crew out of position tbh


cs

[SWBKCB]

They do seem to cancel flights at the drop of a hat to suit their own needs. Disgraceful attitude towards their customers. Another reason why investment is needed in SOU, it would rid us of this tin pot airline.

Just wondering who you've got in mind to replace flybe? As you seem keen on spending other people's money, presumably not planning to start your own?

[Cloud1]

Given that aircraft and crew were all over the bloody place yesterday it's absolutely unsurprising that there is disruption today. BA Cityflyer are no different at LCY with many first wave departures scrapped. Before having another dig at Flybe, invest some time in understanding how airlines operate and what challenges disruption brings to the operation. You have demonstrated no knowledge so far Rivetjoint.....

[Rivet Joint]

Cloud1: Explain that to all the people who have had their bank holidays ruined by BE. People are paying to get from A to B, they don't give a hell about the problems you mention (which by the way are not insurmountable). My points all originate out of the same two issues, SOU needs to invest and BE needs competition. The problem is that the owners will not invest and as a result BE will continue to treat SOU and its customers with nothing but disdain. They can afford to do this with no competition. Whereas MAN and BHX they have to look after better.

[davidjohnson6]

Rivet - Birmingham and Manchester are both much bigger cities than Southampton which makes for a far larger demand for air travel and able to support greater competition. Please remembere that Flybe as a commercial company are not exactly making huge profits - they nearly went bankrupt a couple of years ago - better to have an airline with based aircraft serving a range of destinations than none at all.

Before people slag me off, I should point out that I used to live in Swaythling, about a 20 min walk from SOU.

[RW20]

River Joint
Could BE pull out of Southampton? ,And if they did what are the chances of the airport surviving?

[SWBKCB]

My points all originate out of the same two issues, SOU needs to invest and BE needs competition.

What do you want SOU to invest in? There is a motorway at one end of the runway and a railway yard at the other and constraints on runway aids that major customers couldn't use if they were there.

Which airlines are you thinking of that would do a better job? You ignore the fact that other airlines in the same position as BE (aircraft and crew out of place) do exactly the same thing.

The only argument seems to be that BOH spent £50m so SOU should - as my mum would say "if BOH put their hand in the fire, should SOU?"

[Hial Flyer]

Cloud1: Explain that to all the people who have had their bank holidays ruined by BE. People are paying to get from A to B, they don't give a hell about the problems you mention (which by the way are not insurmountable). My points all originate out of the same two issues, SOU needs to invest and BE needs competition. The problem is that the owners will not invest and as a result BE will continue to treat SOU and its customers with nothing but disdain. They can afford to do this with no competition. Whereas MAN and BHX they have to look after better.
Get yourself up to Heathrow and Gatwick and you will see the people who aren't getting home or away on holiday for the New Year due to the exact same weather problems. And none of them involve BE.

[Reversethrustset]

The problem with Rivet Joint is he's a disgruntled ex employee who can't seem to let go of the airline that gave him a leg up in the industry. If he had half a brain he'd know that if Flybe, or any other airline for that matter were to try and fly every schedule in a day disrupted by fog then they'd be playing catch up for the next 36 hrs continuously and it would impact on the following day's schedule let alone the current day's schedule, and then you'd have to find crew who aren't out of hours to fly through the night. I'll wait with baited breath to hear of any airline with the frequency that flybe operates that does not cancel flights when weather disrupts the day. Unfortunately Rivet Joint seems to be devoid of any common sense and if there was any tiny snippet of information where he could jump on his former employee then he'd be on it like a tramp on chips.

[adfly]

Few changes have appeared today. Some have already been mentioned elsewhere but it looks like the rather random weekend flights could be for a positioning aircraft or possibly a tie up with cruise companies to carry passengers travelling on cruises from the port. All seem to operate from the end of May to the start of September.

Aberdeen - 2 weekly Sat/Sun
East Midlands - 1 weekly Sat
Exeter - 1 weekly Sat

No changes to any of the spain/portugal routes, but some of the other leisure destinations have seen some extra flights added.

Biarritz - 3 weekly (was 2?)
Bordeaux - 5 weekly (was 1)
Toulon - 4 weekly (was 2)
Verona - 3 weekly (was 2?)

[PPRuNeUser0176]

Notice SOU aircraft going to be operating DUB-EXT-DUB on weekdays next summer.

[Reversethrustset]

It did last summer.

[destinationsky]

Yes the facts currently point to it being a hard fix but at the end of the day an airport being closed for a full day because of some fog is pathetic. Fog is predicted tomorrow which means two days where time stands still and the airport just doesn't function. Yes SOU is not LHR but it is also not some dirt strip out in Timbuktu. The airport is hugely important to the local economy and if some trees need to be cut down to increase the environment in which it can operate safely then the local authority should be facilitating that. If the shed near the railway works is too tall then it shouldn't have been given permission. All buildings of any relevant height are assessed prior to permission being granted. Someone messed up there or maybe the airport didn't have the foresight to think that down the line that would be an obstacle for its growth. I suspect the latter. We are talking about people who built a car park so close to their runway that it affects their operations. I mean you seriously couldn't make it up! What's key to our business? The runway and stands where the aircraft which are the defining feature of our business depend on. No, the car park which makes us a few quid in the short term is more important. That's what grates the most for me personally, the sheer lack of ambition and short sightedness that is constantly undermining the growth of their business. I am sorry but it cannot be a coincidence that the grinning goon has been in charge throughout. Some change is much needed but the nature of a pension fund is that they want a safe investment. It doesn't matter the the returns are small as long as they are dependable. It's a shame someone did not step in when it was up for sale who would have speculated to accumulate. If someone is willing to spend 50mil at BOH then we should expect the same for SOU. Can you imagine what could be achieved at SOU with that sort of money.
Rivet Joint - again, your comments amaze me - complete lack of understanding about how an airport works in general, let alone Southampton. I am intrigued by your back story and you still haven't told us where you got your information from relating to the ILS being unsupported?

In reference to your comments regarding buildings, there are currently no buildings in close vicinity to the airport that affect it's operations or could be seen as performance limiting. The railway sheds do not affect the operation as they are not tall enough; the only affect being wake turbulence on particularly windy days but nothing that could be deemed as a hazard. The sheds have never been on airport land so you cannot criticize the airport for their location. The safeguarding process is well documented and audited by the CAA so no buildings have slipped through the net and nobody has messed up.
Secondly, the car park does not limit the operation of the runway? I'm particularly intrigued by this comment as I cannot understand how it does affect the runway?! Perhaps you could expand?

Lastly, you mention trees. You seem to think that you can get the local authority involved to cut them down? Nope, again, a very short sighted view. Most of the trees that could be deemed as performance limiting are on private land. The local authority has no jurisdiction about those ones so engagement is required with the landowner, and in the case of Marhill copse just to the South, who owns that?! Southampton City Council don't! Then there is the costs associated with the tree reduction, not only the cost of lopping but the compensation required - you are talking thousands... per tree. Having been involved in tree reduction at 2 airports, you can take that as fact. It has just taken 4 months to remove 3 trees at my current airport....

It's about time that you laid your grudge to rest... failing that, put all of your comments and suggestions in writing and address them to "The grinning goon, Southampton Airport, SO18 2NL" Do something positive with your negativity rather than sitting behind a keyboard moaning.

[Heathrow Harry]

Presumably Rivet Join wants his pension invested in UNSAFE investments that are not dependable???? Or has he lost it ??

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint/Destinationsky

Life is too short for me go into great detail.

From my recollection both the rail sheds (at the north end) and trees (at the south end) were (and probably still are) take-off performance limiting for most public transport flights(eg E145 /E170 /E195/B737).

You must appreciate that the rail sheds and the trees were there before the hard runway was put down (circa 1965). Consequently its not a case of sanctioning their presence.

In respect of 02 the situation was worse until I identified a large number of redundant poles in the rail yard and persuaded the MD to cough up the money to fund their removal, as the yard operator was not about to do so. That was worth a few tonnes extra take-off weight for the then operation of BACX E145s. As normal at SOU, the MD and Ops Director got the credit for that!

In respect of 20, tree (s) in or adjacent to "Marhill Copse" are the culprits. Prior to my retirement I tried repeatedly to have them reduced. The Local Planning Authority (Southampton City) either would not, or could not, agree to their removal/reduction. The airport operator did not appear to have the stomach for a fight to challenge the LPA.

I'm not sure if it is still the case, but the offending trees were/are too close to the end of the runway to give time to turn and take advantage of the better obstacle environment offered by the optional offset Type A Chart, to increase optimum take-off weights for the length of TORA. Solve that one and its worth a few extra tonnes of take-off weight.

Landing weights are also restricted by the current LDAs, caused by the displaced thresholds. RWY 20 is inset due to obstacles which penetrate protected approach surfaces. Furthermore, the current threshold should be further inset (which would kill the airport operationally) to fully comply with CAP 168 precision runway obstacle clearance criteria. How does it state of affairs arise? Answer, a waiver issued many years ago by CAA, which successive airport operators have clung on to.

RWY 02 threshold is primarily inset to provide a safety buffer from the M27 (ie provision of a RESA). However, RWY 02 operates under another long standing waiver from CAA. The approach path should be protected (IAW CAP 168) as a Code 3 Instrument Runway, simply put it cannot, due to multiple penetrations of the normal approach surface caused by trees and buildings on the hill.

As previously noted by many contributors, without some considerable investment nothing is going to significantly change at SOU. Unless maybe an airline operator comes along with something with considerably better performance figures to carry around 100+ PAX, 2000 miles or greater! Cs300 anyone?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN

Thank you once again for your detailed analysis of t/o and landing restrictions at the airport.
Would I be right in saying that Volotea must have load restrictions on there up and coming A319 flights to Palma?.If this is correct then surely flights to the "Med" in the future are unrealistic.

[TCAS FAN]

RW20

Not really my area of expertise, but from memory the early A319s required around 2000 metres TORA (with no limiting obstacles in the take-off/climb area-ie probably not SOU) for an airport at sea level and +15C to operate at max take-off weight, giving around a 4-5 hours endurance (ie 2000+ miles). So with a 2.5 hour sector to the Med', limited baggage allowance (charter flight) and no freight, may be able to operate with a full passenger load out of SOU. Anyone from Servisair SOU out there to elaborate?

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: Thanks for the informed post. Sheds a lot of light on the limitations. I am not surprised at all that the MD claimed credit. If you read the article posted recently, he was directly quoted as claiming credit for the improvements to the highways and the train station (nothing to do with the airport). I do not want to harp on about the man, but he was apparently in charge of development at the time the master plan came out in 2005, and over 10 years later not a single thread of its content has ever materialised. you would think that the so called author of a master plan then becoming the MD would have resulted in at least some of it coming to fruition? It is a kid in a sweet shop situation is it not? I think what sums it up is that if the man had any ambition arguably he would have moved on to a larger airport by now, and yet he has hung around for over 10 years. As far as I am concerned, regardless of any recession, the airport has not moved on at all since 2005.

destinationsky: My back story is completely irrelevant, the beauty of living in a democracy is that you can have an opinion regardless. I would like nothing more than for SOU to grow and to start serving its affluent catchment like it should. I got my wires crossed and was referring to the VOR rather than the ILS. There was an article some time ago about 02 being served by a GPS system as an ILS would be a retrograde step (yeah right, more like SOU preferring the cheaper option). Of course nothing has materialised since, hence my intrigue as to whether the VOR has been removed with nothing being installed in its place. The car park means that larger aircraft cannot utilise the stands that run parallel with the runway. If they did then their tails would affect the runways operational ability. This is a huge factor, as it means SOU can only really handle 2 large aircraft at once on the stands opposite the royal mail building (another screw up by the airport selling that land to them). I have mentioned the CS100/CS300 previously, as does TCAS FAN. I believe EZY could and should buy a load of these as their cheap tickets and strong focus on being as much about business routes as they are leisure, would be a match made in heaven with the affluent South East. Anyone who has flown out of SOU would choose it over LGW every day of the week if the costs stacked up. I have no grudge, as a local who relies on the airport for both business and leisure I would quite like for it to finally kick on after all this time!

[RW20]

TCAS FAN and RIVET JOINT

Wasn't a GPS Baro VNAV approach proposed for 02,indeed didn't Aurigny islander trial this approach?
It's time the airport management implemented upgrades for approach aids and lighting, especially with increases in revenue with extra pax!

[RW20]

According to notams Southampton PSR is n/a from 1/1-10/1?.
Surely a regional airport can't be without radar for 10 days? What is happening there?

[TCAS FAN]

RW20

I'm with you on the RNAV/ GNSS approaches. The subject of one of my previous rants, asking why in this century SOU does not have them - ask Shoreham's users what they use, an NDB or GNSS approach!

As for the radar, SOU has a dual system, primary radar (ie a system which detects aircraft using reflected radar pulses) and a Secondary Surveillance Radar (SSR) which uses data from an aircraft's transponder (ie the squawk).

In the event of a failure or temporary withdrawal of one system (eg for maintenance), the other can be used, albeit with limitations. Haven't see the current NOTAM, which may specify an unserviceability or maintenance withdrawal.

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: do you think the removal of some of the Ford buildings would have improved the situation at all?

Does anyone know why the GVA flight was diverted? Not the first time an early afternoon flight has been diverted.

[Reversethrustset]

Probably because flybe wanted to p!$$ off their passengers, I mean heaven forbid there was actually a legitimate reason.

[adfly]

Cork is going 5 weekly from the end of March and 6 weekly from the end of May-Sept (daily ex. Weds), presume Aer Lingus are pretty happy with the route.

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint

Unfortunately not. The 20 take-off/02 approach obstacle problems are trees and the hill.

[stewyb]

SOU 2016 passenger numbers = 1,946,938 - up 10%:ok:

[TCAS FAN]

stewyb

Still cannot crack the 2 million, lets hope 2017 will be SOU's year.

[stewyb]

Heading in the right direction and just feel SOU needs another airline or two to supplement these figures ie LOT to Poland on the Embraer or Brussels Airlines to BRU on the SSJ?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
With the reduction of flights on the Sun routes by Flybe,surely unless we get new routes as suggested by stewyb the annual passenger figures are going to hover around 2m for a while yet?

[TCAS FAN]

RW20

I would suggest that sorting the trees at the south end and getting the 20 starter strip in, 2 million PAX will be just a passing milestone.

[canberra97]

Eastern are to operate a new route from Rodez in France to Southampton after confirming that the French airport will be a new base, flights will also operate from Rodez to Lyon and Milan MXP.

[adfly]

Southampton (South London) you mean! To think this was joked about not so long ago...

Good to see a new route though, hopefully they can make a success of it over the summer. Operates twice weekly Mon and Fri 2nd Jun - 20th Aug on a Saab 2000 according to the Eastern website, so should be a good option for long weekend breaks.

Trois nouvelles destinations à partir de l?aéroport de Rodez | Journal de Millau (http://www.journaldemillau.fr/actualite/2017/01/16/trois-nouvelles-destinations-a-partir-de-laeroport-de-rodez/)

[adfly]

Passengers were up 9% in November to and a significant 25% in December leading to a 10% increase in passengers for the whole year, as stated on the previous page.

Route - Nov/Dec

Cork - 34 pax 48%/40 pax 55%
Lyon - 26 pax 33%/34 pax 43%
Paris CDG - 43 pax 55%/53 pax 68%
Munich - 59 pax/77 pax

Source: CAA Stats

[RW20]

Lot of criticism today on local forum on Southampton inability to land aircraft over the last 48 hours due to fog. With the limited ILS,there have been only a few landings.Its historic that Southampton cannot improve the poor visibility limitations without airside investment.This has not been forthcoming,but with passenger numbers increasing there is growing disquiet with the fare paying public asking the pertinent question "why in 2017,can't aircraft land in bad weather at Southampton".
Can there be any hope in the future of improvements?,if not could this issue become damaging to the airport future?





��

[Rivet Joint]

RW20: You can say that again! The airport has practically been closed for the last 3 days. To think some people on here say fog is a rare occurrence, it is so frequent at SOU it seems. Plenty of airports are situated on the coast, some even on the side of mountains. I want to make it clear I have absolute no appetite to start the boring debate about the technical details of fog and how it isn't SOU's fault blah blah (even though we had the expertise to put a man on the moon more than 50 years ago!) but the silence from SOU is deafening. Any chance of a statement apologising to all the people who have had their travel plans ruined? Any mention of steps being made to help alleviate the problem or planned investment to aid ops? Nope, just a message saying the airport is closed and will open when it opens. The impression I have is of two old gits in the control tower working to rule and never getting out at first gear, and the grinning goon MD too busy working on the grove in his chair (that he has been inexcusably allowed to sit in for the last decade whilst showing not an ounce of dynamism) whilst we all curse our naivety of trusting tin pot airport over LGW/LHR. Again I want to make it clear I dearly wish SOU to succeed and offer the range of destinations the surrounding region is demanding.

Just checked and 3 flights have just diverted to Bristol after circling for ages. Another one has given up and gone back to the Channel Islands! Just looked out my window and visibility is at least a mile, what gives? Not foggy at all tonight.

[RW20]

River Joint
It must be unique to Southampton that for third day running that the airport is unable to operate,due to fog and the fact that with limited landing aids this situation could exist to the weather changes.
It's got to be damaging to the airport future that this situation exists.
Given that Bournemouth could have landed most of the flights with its cat 3 ILS ,Southampton survives due to its transport links!.
There must be thousands of passengers disgruntled and questioning the airport viability tonight.

[SWBKCB]

Given that Bournemouth could have landed most of the flights with its cat 3 ILS

RW20 - as has been rehearsed on this thread MANY times, it takes two to tango - CAT3 ILS is of no use if your major customers aren't equipped/crewed to take advantage.

[RW20]

SWBKCB
Unless I'm mistaken Flybe diversions landed in cat 2 conditions recently at Bournemouth!
That is 350m RVR or above,Unless I'm mistaken the minima at Southampton is 800 mtrs RVR,which isn't even Cat 1 minima(550 RVR) this due to local restrictions including buildings.Runway approach lighting falls short of cat 1, improvement s here and tree/building removal would improve minima.

[Wycombe]

There must be thousands of passengers disgruntled and questioning the airport viability tonight

Including those on the 7 Q400's that I can currently see either holding or diverting away as of 2245 this evening.

Flying from SOU is such a great experience in many ways, but not on days like this.

[gkmeech]

Since 2200 tonight 3 diversions to Birmingham, 2 to Bristol, and 1 each to Manchester and Cardiff. Bournemouth has not been available to Flybe Dash 8 for the past two days, RVR not good enough.

[Rivet Joint]

Wycombe: it's going to be a long way home for those people tonight. Sometimes you have to take things like that on the chin but the fact is that it happens too often at SOU, and not a word is uttered by the management. No doubt the grinning goon went home at 5pm without a care in the world. You have to question how this kind of management is going to play for KLM and BMI. Just the sort of airlines SOU should be enticing, but since they started operating I am not sure a week has gone by without some form of cancellation. I'm sure BE don't care (judging by my experience of their customer service) plus the fact they have a monopoly at SOU (who else are customers going to fly with).

The problem is that we as customers are all ready to spend are money locally (even paying a premium for the privilege) rather than drive up the M3 but the management don't seem to want to provide the product. With the devolution of power to the regions there is going to be an onus to attract business, investment and tourism. However, if the people flying in on KLM or LH codeshares have to wait 3 days before being able to land at the local airport it puts us at a disadvantage before they have even stepped off the plane. I sincerely hope pressure is put on the MD to be put out to pasture and someone new and ambitious takes up the challenge. I doubt the pension fund that owns the airport will want to rock the boat though.

[Wycombe]

I'm sure BE don't care

That I doubt as this must be costing them a fortune, besides a lot of bad PR. Tomorrow morning's outbound programme will also be wrecked of course.

You do seem to have a vendetta against the MD. I've never met him (so hard to comment) but I know of/work with some big global Corporations where people who hold the title of "MD" are actually relatively powerless (and often have someone else to answer to)....just saying!

[Rivet Joint]

Wycome: Both good points. It would be interesting to know if calls are made by the airlines in respect of the lack of action by SOU (and the lost income they are regularly incurring as a result). Also, what was behind the brief flirtation with a base at BOH. Maybe a wake up call to SOU? If it was then nothing has happened.

In terms of the MD, I probably am jumping to conclusions and you are right he could be powerless. However, when someone has held senior positions for a decade and cannot point to any significant improvement under his helm then I think it is fair to ask questions. Just my view of course.

[Rivet Joint]

Make that 4 days and counting, all flights cancelled unti further notice. You seriously couldn't make it up!

[gkmeech]

Rivet Joint, what would you do ? Move the River Itchen?

[22/04]

I think expectations run too high these days, but may be I am just an old and remember when many major airports had no ILS, at least on their easterly runways. It is also worth remembering that if you do book into LHR you can still be disrupted, friends were recently delayed over night in Munich because LVPs meant LH were obliged to cancel their flight due to flow rate.

[LTNman]

Also London City is CAT1 and has many bad days

[Expressflight]

....... like today with many holding and SEN just about full now.

[gkmeech]

First arrival at SOU this morning, a BOH diversion! Just watched it land.

[gkmeech]

Also London City is CAT1 and has many bad days

To put things in perspective LHR had almost 200 flights cancelled on Mon/Tues

[stewyb]

gkmeech

What was the BOH diversion?

[TCAS FAN]

G128 biz-jet - consolation prize!

[MAJP]

Flybe is stopping is route to Paris-Orly at the end of March

The route is operated with 12 weekly flights

[22/04]

I think as much LVPs as icing. It's been bad all week with many cancellations, go-arounds and diversions, and the fog hanging round all day. I believe a Flybe afternoon flight yesterday from Edinburgh was airborne for three hours, extensive holding, two approaches, and eventually diverted to Southampton.

From the LCY thread.

I just added this for balance really - if true here is another side to the Southampton coin.

[stewyb]

Flybe added frequency on S17 sun routes, Alicante x 5 wkly, Faro x 3 wkly, Malaga x 4 wkly & Palma x 3 wkly

[SOUSpotter96]

Do the A320Neo's have better performance when it comes to departure?, since they have bigger engines... If they do, I wonder if an airline, will use that to operate out of SOU. Potentially Lufthansa to expand some German routes out of Southampton or maybe even Alitalia to Italy. (Not sure if Alitalia have any on order).

[darren1]

A basket case like AZ?

[RW20]

SOU spotted 96
I can't see that there would be demand for the neo320 capacity to German destinations from Southampton. The only case for 320 operation is Sun routes as in the past,however runway restrictions are not favourable for economic operation.In addition stand space is a ongoing issue.
Dash 8 400 and E145 seem the practical plane to Europe cities from SOU.

[GrahamK]

Volotea adding a weekly Ibiza i believe. Apologies if previously reported

[canberra97]

Yes Graham very old news as it was reported a few months ago on here as well as on a.net, in the local paper, SOU website, etc!

[adfly]

While this is pure speculation, I couldn't help but notice the comments in the BA Cityflyer thread about the CS100 having a 2200NM range with full pax +bags from LCY. That sort of range would open up a large range of destinations from SOU. I wonder how much worse the CS300 would be, as that seems to be the model that would appeal more to LCC's?

In more relevant news, Flybe have updated their timetable with the sun route increases and also now have AMS showing 5x daily into the summer as well. However, 3 departures within 2 hours (13:35, 14:25, 15:25) suggests it perhaps needs a little further tweaking... ORY ends at the end of March as posted on here, with the increase to 2x daily on the CDG route only partly compensating for the lost capacity. No other notable changes, but it is good to see MAN, EDI and GLA will be operating 6x daily for the first time in quite a few years.

[RW20]

Adfly
Although it's good news on the flight increases for Amsterdam,I can see this as a squeezing KLM plight,It's a shame we are not seeing a frequency increase with them,let's hope they up there capacity in the future.

[Rivet Joint]

This sums up why BE are such a nasty little airline. AMS should not warrant more than a 3 daily rotation for them, especially now KLM operate two a day. They have effectively reduced the Paris route by 50% (a route they have a monopoly on and is just as attractive for connections) to pile on unnecessary capacity to try and bully KLM off their patch. If anyone wants to question why BE is not good for SOU read this post. A small minded little airline who are standing in the way of SOU flourishing.

[SOUSpotter96]

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, Rivet Joint. Hopefully KLM will respond by creating a 3rd flight at lunchtime/mid-day, although it could be over compensating the route. Just noticed the KLM E175 go over (PH-EXI). Increased capacity on the flights maybe?..

[LGS6753]

BE are such a nasty little airline

It's not personal, it's business. Fair enough if you don't agree with their strategy, but no business is run with a policy of spite!

[SWBKCB]

Were there many complaints when KLM muscled in on BE's route?

Suggest you settle back and relax with a pint...

Harviestoun Brewery | Award-winning craft beers (http://harviestoun.com/our-beers/bitter-and-twisted)

[TCAS FAN]

SOU needs KLM more than BEE of the AMS route. The ability to connect through AMS to the world far out ways provision of a service for AMS terminating PAX. What SOU now needs is DLH to FRA to complement AMS and CDG connections.

[adfly]

Given the current arrangement on the MUC route I would think the most likely option would be BMI Regional adding a FRA route and codesharing with Lufthansa.

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps SOU needs a based operator with a network of sustainable routes rather than the big guys coming in and cherry picking?

[Cloud1]

For goodness sake, when will this thread attract professionals with an understanding of airline business rather than the waffle of individuals like Rivetjoint.

Flybe are doing nothing different to other airlines. If pax prefer KLM then Flybe will realise and reduce capacity. If pax use the Flybe service to the detriment of KLM, then either KLM need to up their game or pax simply prefer what they are familiar with.

As a comparison this is no different to Jet2 at BHX opening the same routes than Monarch and Ryanair, or Easyjet and Ryanair at LTN, or Wizz deciding LTN needs a fourth carrier on the Tel aviv route. Or, heaven forbid KLM starting a service that Flybe already offered out of Southampton.

I appreciate some people dont like Flybe regardless. But without them SOU wouldn't be as busy as it is today. Personal opinion should sit at private conversation, professional conversation ideal for the wider forum that is Pprune.

[Rivet Joint]

The point about it being business is valid but it is hard to argue how this move is anything but spite. They have a long history of it at SOU. They have made numerous attempts to drive T3 off the LBA and ABZ routes only to drop the routes a few months after succeeding. In order to over saturate the AMS route they are cutting back the Paris route. How is that helping their customers? What's that expression, cut your nose to spite your face?

The C-series is the answer to all of SOU's problems and I still suspect that EZY will order it at some point. The runway would no longer be a restricting factor on what destinations are reachable, the airside infrastructure would be though. They should be building new stands to the north east and improving the taxiways. I just hope the grinning goon has the airport prepared for when EZY do come calling but I suspect he won't. If he did then we could finally say goodbye to the underwhelming and nasty little airline that have treated us all with nothing but contempt all these years.

[Rivet Joint]

Cloud1: As Adfly has pointed out, the increase means that there are now three departures within 2 hours. In your 'professional opinion' can you please tell us the business case for this frequency? We are all ears to your 'professional opinion'.

If you don't mind me asking, do you live in the vicinity of SOU? You cannot underestimate what the arrival of KLM means for SOU, the world has literally been unlocked. A lot of visitors to SOU (chiefly the Asian students) will be more likely to rely on an internationally known airline like KLM than they would BE. This will over time build a reputation for SOU to international travellers. If BE drives KLM away then SOU is back to square one.

[RW20]

river Joint
Surely the airport management can see through Flybe Amsterdam actions,and as such will want to do everything to keep KLM.Without some form of support KLM could stop operations from Southampton,which would be a heavy blow to the airport ambitions.

[SWBKCB]

What about BE's codeshare partners like Emirates, Etihad, Cathay? Hardly small fry

[Reversethrustset]

You didn't call them a nasty little airline when they gave you your first job did you, Rivet Joint.
The only business case you need to hear from cloud1 is that it's survival of the fittest and no doubt the "little airline" you're now working for would do exactly the same. If you can't see this as business then you need to go back to school.
You know as well as I do that if Flybe pulled out of Southampton then one of two things would happen, it would either become another little GA airfield or it'll become real estate. Grow up.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Rivet mate, you seriously need to relax. Reading your posts gives the impression of a red-faced, spitting mad keyboard warrior child. You make such assertions without any evidence, and usually resort to childish insults of companies and key members of the airport management. Is it really worth getting so worked up about?
No offence meant, I just felt the need to post a friendly word of advice before you go and hurt yourself.

Anyway, don't forget that a few short years ago the SOU-AMD route was operated by Scot Airways on a Dornier 328. Not exactly a lot of capacity. Fast forward and it's now operated by two large airlines multiple times per day with presumably a lot of transit pax as well as point to point. It's a very successful route, just look at the number of people it carries and think of how that has grown since the aforementioned D328 operation.

My point is, the Flybe frequency increase may purely be down to increased capacity during the peak season, and not solely as a dig at KLM. I think KLM are holding their own on the route from what I've seen, and I believe the city pair can support both carriers.

[The Nutts Mutts]

*SOU-AMS. Typo. D'oh.

[_aax1]

I wouldn't worry about EZY coming to SOU. EZY would never order the C-series, it goes against the simple LCC principle of having one type of aircraft. Also both EZY and FR are increasing capacity on their aircraft to continue to bring costs down so ordering small aircraft would not happen. Whenever EZY open new bases in the future it will be at airports such as FRA, MUC, LHR, ZUR to compete with the flags on business routes, not regional airports.

[EI-BUD]

EZY would never order the C-series, it goes against the simple LCC principle of having one type of aircraft

To a large extent the rule book has gone out the window in relation to LCC's, or their precise definition. Take JetBlue for example, it has a second type commensurate with the markets that it wants to access that would not suit A320 family. Another ingredient would be the use of secondary airports, but that is clearly now not the case. Ryanair even now go to FRA, which they said they never would. Norwegian now have long haul, a step change in terms of operating model, and as a result a operating a wide body.

EasyJet is more of a value carrier than a pure LCC and with its European peers operating at a lower cost it will need to have a point of difference. A type with lower costs to operate at a reasonable frequency may be a USP.

If the business case stacks up, such C Series coming to the market with a lower cost to get scale of orders or visibility with particular carriers, the likes of easyJet or any airline should consider looking at it. Building such business cases naturally is about more than the purchase price, it will need to look at type rating costs of pilots, maintenance, and a host of other nuances and costs. Again if it stacks up....

EI-BUD

[Buster the Bear]

C-Series was hangared with easyJet after the last Farnborough Air Show, so they must have expressed a high level interest in the airframe.

[SWBKCB]

Rather than operating a smaller a/c themselves, maybe EZY might go down the franchise route - with, say, somebody like flyBe.... :ok:

[Heathrow Harry]

well if Bombardier are giving C-series away......................

[Rivet Joint]

Many in the industry have confirmed it to be the most technically advanced aircraft currently in the air. Not sure why airlines are not queuing up to take it to be honest. I guess all the uncertainty currently around Bombardier is stopping airlines from committing. I may be wrong but it would appear that the C-Series is perfectly suited to serve a relatively untapped market (long thin routes between 2nd cities). The LCC market is oversaturated with FR, EZY, etc all serving the centre ground with 737s/A320s. Does anyone else think that there is an opportunity for one of the LCCs to make a move into the long thin market between 2nd cities? With the C-series high economics and long range this could be the next battle ground?

[inOban]

Agree, but also to sustain frequency on AYRound 'business' routes at times of low demand, such as Nov and Jan. I would have thought that the best way would be for Easy to wet-lease some from Cityjet or other owners.

[adfly]

Looks like there may be a Ski flight to Sion in Switzerland next winter if this operation gets off the ground.

Where to Ski And Snowboard - PowdAir to fly from UK regions to Sion (http://www.wheretoskiandsnowboard.com/news/powdair-to-fly-from-uk-regions-to-sion/)

[Severn]

From CH-Aviation:

PowdAir (Sion) is a virtual carrier looking to offer direct flights from various UK, Dutch, and Belgian airports to Sion located in the heart of Switzerland’s most popular winter sports region, the Valais.

The start-up said in a statement that effective December 17 onwards, it will offer flights from Sion to each of London Southend, Bournemouth, Southampton, Bristol Int'l, Manchester Int'l and Edinburgh in the UK as well as Brussels in Belgium, and Rotterdam in the Netherlands. Operations are on-board two Fokker 100s chartered from Croatia's Trade Air (C3, Zagreb).

Transfers from Sion to the ski resorts of Verbier, Zermatt, Crans-Montana, Zinal-Grimentz, Leukerbad and Anzère will be available.

[Flitefone]

EZY fleet and route strategy is well articulated in their annual report, in a nutshell for fleets, its larger aircraft and lower seat costs, dumping the 319 in favour of 186 seat 320 and 320 neo:

"Efficient fleet management. We operate an exclusively Airbus A320 family fleet. This delivers operational flexibility as well as efficiencies in engineering and maintenance, crew, ownership and fuel. As the second largest operator of Airbus A320 family aircraft in the world we also benefit from significant economies of scale on acquisition. Between 2016 and 2021 we will derive a major benefit from up-gauging our fleet, from a majority 156-seat A319 composition to a fleet that is over 70% 186-seat A320s. The 186-seat A320neo aircraft are expected to have a 13% to 14% cost per seat benefit(6) compared to the 156-seat A319s."

[SOUSpotter96]

Another E175 from KLM. Is this them increasing capacity against FlyBe maybe?, or is the demand there.

[RW20]

SOU spotter96
Isn't it a fact the the e175 is replacing the f70 which is being phased out by end of year,in capacity terms it's a 8 pax increase,hardly a squeeze on Flybe,now if they operated the e190 with the 100 seat layout then this would be a significant event.

[canberra97]

But the KLM EMB 190 has made several appearances at SOU, I would think it's more about aircraft utilisation than anything else plus the F70 will be totally withdrawn from service with KLM from October 2017 so we're regularly see EMB 170 on SOU to AMS with probably the odd EMB 190.

[adfly]

Any major changes at this stage are unlikely, so I shall do my usual summary. Hopefully this year SOU will finally cross the 2m passenger mark it has sat below for so long. Flybe seem to have upped a lot of their core routes, and many of the leisure routes seem to be less 'peaky', operating at high frequencies for longer in the season. Eastern are slightly down on last summer capacity wise although Aer Lingus Regional, Aurigny and Volotea all have more capacity than last year.

Aer Lingus Regional

Cork - 5-6 weekly AT7

Aurigny Air Services

Alderney - 22-44 weekly D28 (35 weekly for most of the peak summer outside Alderney week)

BMI Regional

Munich - 12 weekly ER3/4

Eastern Airways

Aberdeen - 9 weekly S20 (via LBA)
Leeds/Bradford - 17 weekly S20
Rodez (New!) - 2 weekly S20 (From 02/06)

Flybe

Aberdeen (New!) - 2 weekly Q400 (From 28/05)
Alicante - 5 weekly E95
Amsterdam - 30 weekly Q400
Avignon - 2-4 weekly Q400
Bastia - 1 weekly Q400
Belfast City - 20 weekly Q400
Bergerac - 8 weekly Q400
Biarritz - 3 weekly Q400
Bordeaux - 5 weekly Q400
Brest - 1-2 weekly Q400
Dublin - 21 weekly Q400
Dusseldorf - 6 weekly Q400
East Midlands (New!) 1 weekly Q400 (From 27/05)
Edinburgh - 37 weekly Q400
Exeter (New!) 1 weekly Q400 (From 27/05)
Faro - 3 weekly E95
Glasgow - 39 weekly Q400
Guernsey - 29 weekly AT4/7 (Blue Islands)
Jersey - 34 weekly AT4/7 (Blue Islands)
La Rochelle - 5-7 weekly Q400
Limoges - 6 weekly Q400
Lyon - 4-7 weekly Q400
Malaga - 4 weekly E95
Manchester - 32 weekly Q400/E95
Nantes - 7 weekly Q400
Newcastle - 25 weekly Q400
Palma - 3 weekly E95/Q400
Paris CDG - 12 weekly Q400
Perpignan - 1 weekly Q400
Rennes - 3-7 weekly Q400
Toulon - 4 weekly Q400
Verona - 3 weekly Q400

KLM Cityhopper

Amsterdam - 7-12 weekly F70/E75

Thomas Cook

Alicante*
Faro*
Ibiza* (New!)
Malaga*
Palma*
Verona*

*Package Holidays using scheduled Flybe/Volotea flights

Thomson

Palma^
Ibiza^ (New!)

^Selling packages on Volotea flights

Volotea

Ibiza (New!) - 1 weekly 712 (From 25/05)
Palma - 4 weekly 319/712

432-480 weekly departures
357-369 weekly Flybe departures
75-91 weekly other departures
62-69 daily departures

[Janet Spongthrush]

Volotea

Ibiza (New!) - 1 weekly 712 (From 25/05)
Palma - 4 weekly 319

[/QUOTE]

Excellent summary. My only observation is that my flights in June on Volotea to Palma show a B717 seat map at the moment.

[adfly]

Thanks, I remember reading in a couple of places that it had been upgraded to an A319, so it could well be a mix of the two

[Flitefone]

Consider the 2 news items from the past week and think about the possible outcome!


Planes in and out of Southampton Airport have been disrupted because of air traffic controller illness.
Flights had to be halted for three 30-minute periods so staff in the control tower could comply with rest breaks despite the shortages.
One passenger complained his plane was delayed by 90 minutes.
The National Air Traffic Services (Nats) apologised for the inconvenience but warned there would be a similar situation on Sunday.
'Hot and bothered'
Nats said "staff sickness" had caused the issues in Southampton's air traffic control tower.
A Nats spokesman added: "To ensure we complied fully with the safety regulations around controller rest breaks, this resulted in a stop to inbound and outbound flights for three short periods of time."
Brian Fearn, who is travelling to Malaga, said: "[There are] 150 very frustrated hot and bothered passengers on Flybe destined for Malaga are still on the ground 1.5 hours after scheduled departure with no news when we can get off or get away."
The Nats spokesman said: "We worked with the airport to ensure we kept the disruption to a minimum."


http://www.airtrafficmanagement.net/2017/03/saab-to-deliver-nats-remote-tower-demonstrator/


SOU could just be the first UK airport with Remote Tower back up (not counting the Heathrow back up tower)

FF

[TCAS FAN]

"Planes in and out of Southampton Airport have been disrupted because of air traffic controller illness."

A problem that has been building over the past few years, airport operator puts pressure on NATS to reduce contract costs, with the hint of finding someone cheaper if they don't.

One of the few ways that this can be done to have any significant cost impact is to reduce staffing. NATS only option is to cut back number of ATCOs thereby reducing contingency for staff sickness cover, ATCOs go sick, NATS have to withdraw service to accommodate their legally required 30 minute breaks.

Who's fault is it?

[Flitefone]

Its not about fault, its about market: passengers go for lowest fares, airlines cut costs, aiports respond by cutting costs, pressure on airport suppliers to cut costs, ANSP has only three options, reduce staff, automate more, or exit the business: NATS is out of LGW, BHX and soon EDI, they left BOH years ago. Automation is a realistic direction to stay in the airporg market.

[Buster the Bear]

How do you automate the tower operation at Southampton, or anywhere else? A remote tower operation is not 'automation'.

[NewquayJacob]

150 hot and bothered passengers won't fit in the 118 seat E195 anyway :D

[Groundloop]

150 hot and bothered passengers won't fit in the 118 seat E195 anyway

But that's why they were hot and bothered. The air conditioning couldn't cope with all those extra pax standing in the aisle!

[Rivet Joint]

Another day, 7 q400s circling, 100s of people just wanting to get home and SOU rendered useless because of some fog. Any sign of investment? Of course not, sod the customers, investment will eat into the dividends. Can't see SOU ever breaking the 2mil mark with this shoddy management in charge.

[Chidken Sangwich]

Another day, 7 q400s circling, 100s of people just wanting to get home and SOU rendered useless because of some fog. Any sign of investment? Of course not, sod the customers, investment will eat into the dividends. Can't see SOU ever breaking the 2mil mark with this shoddy management in charge.

Are Q400's CAT3 then?

[caaardiff]

Another day, 7 q400s circling, 100s of people just wanting to get home and SOU rendered useless because of some fog. Any sign of investment? Of course not, sod the customers, investment will eat into the dividends. Can't see SOU ever breaking the 2mil mark with this shoddy management in charge.

Noticed the diverts. Came on and thought to myself, I bet it's the same old comments on the SOU forum. :ugh: Predictable.

For information there's been 5 diverts from CWL to BRS due to fog this evening.
It's not the end of the world in Wales

[adfly]

Looks like a good month, passengers up 16% to 125,181. Have done brief calculations for a few routes. Have based the sun routes on being all E195, but quite sure a few flights have been on the E175 so loads in reality may be a little better.

Lyon - 34 pax / 44% loads
Paris CDG - 34 pax / 43% loads
Dusseldorf - 44 pax / 56% loads (Up 37% on last year)
Munich - 51 pax per day (Not good considering the capacity on the route over the winter)
Cork - 25 pax / 34% loads (Seems to be a one off based on how this has done previously)
Amsterdam - 239 pax per day (Ahead of MAN, EDI and GLA to be the airports busiest route!)
Faro - 42 pax / 36% loads (Up 53% on last year though!)
Alicante - 79 pax / 67% loads (Up 64% on last year)
Malaga - 57 pax / 48% loads (Up 151% on last year!)

[Wycombe]

4 Dashes each to BHX and EXT by the looks. Going to be a late night and a late-running morning at SOU tomorrow.

It's a great pity (as SOU is a great airport to fly from 99% of the time) but nowhere near as simple as saying it could all be fixed by investment.

[sinbad73]

MAN, EDI and GLA don't see 239 pax a day to AMS?

[adfly]

sinbad73, I think you have misread the statement, I mean SOU-AMS in comparison to the SOU-EDI/GLA/MAN routes.

[sinbad73]

Ah got you now!

[Rivet Joint]

Of course investment wouldn't fix the problem completely, it would ease it though. The fact is there hasn't been any significant investment airside since the place opened. winding up in EXT or BHX at this time of night can't be much fun. Might as well have flown to LHR or LGW, least they can bloody stay open.

[Buster the Bear]

Flybe reveals new leisure flights from Southampton | News | Breaking Travel News (http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/news/article/flybe-reveals-new-leisure-flights-from-southampton/)

[Wycombe]

This might explain some of the what are obviously positioning flights (that are being sold) to the likes of ABZ, EMA an EXT on weekends this coming summer?

By which I mean are they moving more a/c through SOU to operate some of the summer schedule.

[inOban]

Is this any different from previous​ years? Flybe have always sold through tickets from various airports in Scotland to destinations in France, which were all routes via SOU.

[adfly]

They have, but this is the first time I have seen it properly advertised. I think it could be quite a good idea, assuming they manage to at least be reliable. SOU has a good local demand for regional french routes and its geographic location make it well suited to being a 'mini hub'.

[inOban]

If you go to the timetable page on their website, you are given a choice of the direct and connections timetable. I didn't think that was new.

[adfly]

You are correct about that, what I was getting at was that I've never seen any press releases etc about it before like there has been with the MAN and BHX hubs.

[SOUSpotter96]

Didn't realise Austrian or Inghams were doing INN flights this late in the season,just seen on FR24 a Austrian Fokker 70 land.

[canberra97]

Over the last couple of years the Saturday Austrian flights to Innsbruck on behalf of Inghams have always operated untill the end of season in late March, this years flights didn't start untill January unlike in previous years when it's been either late November or early December.

[SOUSpotter96]

Over the last couple of years the Saturday Austrian flights to Innsbruck on behalf of Inghams have always operated untill the end of season in late March, this years flights didn't start untill January unlike in previous years when it's been either late November or early December.

Hadn't realised, thank you Canberra

[adfly]

Summary of passenger numbers & changes on all regular scheduled and charter routes for 2016.

UK

Aberdeen - 27,743 (-6%)
Alderney - 19,964 (-18%)
Belfast City - 118,526 (+8%)
Edinburgh - 199,283 (+2%)
Glasgow - 179,447 (+13%)
Guernsey - 137,211 (-3%)
Jersey - 163,295 (+1%)
Leeds Bradford - 13,796 (-77%) Ouch!
Manchester - 190,774 (+26%)
Newcastle - 118,388 (+7%)

Total UK - 1,168,427

Republic of Ireland

Cork - 16,452 (New)
Dublin - 132,603 (+<1%)

Total ROI - 149,055

France

Avignon - 4,566 (+10%)
Bastia - 2,310 (-55%)
Bergerac - 36,257 (+9%)
Biarritz - 3,868 (New)
Bordeaux - 4,724 (+141%)
Brest - 4,372 (+32%)
Chambery - 9,509 (+44%)
La Rochelle - 16,678 (+17%)
Limoges - 14,183 (-27%)
Lyon - 11,374 (New)
Nantes - 25,297 (+23%)
Paris CDG - 25,389 ('New')
Paris Orly - 64,961 (-7%)
Perpignan - 2,808 (+17%)
Rennes - 19,044 (+5%)
Toulon - 4,527 (New)

Total France - 249,867

Belgium

Antwerp - 181 (-71%)

Netherlands

Amsterdam - 188,355 (+47%)

Germany

Dusseldorf - 29,498 (+642%) Only ran for 2 months of 2015
Hamburg - 2,498 (-33%)
Munich - 27,312 (New)

Total Germany - 59,308

Switzerland

Geneva - 6,073 (-36%)

Austria

Innsbruck - 1,619 (-35%)

Italy

Verona - 7,378 (+14%)

Spain

Alicante - 32,858 (-20%)
Palma - 41,533 (+71%)
Malaga - 23,342 (-45%)

Total Spain - 97,733

Portugal

Faro - 16,002 (-41%)


Total Overall - 1,947,052 (Includes charters/one off flights/diversions etc)

[Rivet Joint]

Adfly: Great post. So close to the elusive 2 million mark! I do hope Volotea expand onto some more sun routes. AF back on the Paris route would also be good (follow KL's lead). BE are axing Orly but not increasing on CDG which is a really strange move.

[canberra97]

The drop in passenger figures for Alicante, Faro and Malaga may well be down to the fact that people were unsure of Flybe's commitment to those routes so booked other airlines as they were released rather late so that must of had a huge affect on bookings.

With Flybe axing Orly that's a large amount of passengers to Paris and only one additional flight being added to CDG.

It would be good to see HOP by Air France pick up the ORLY route as there is obviously the demand.

I wonder if Aer Lingus Regional will enter the SOU-DUB market at some point.

Possible future Volotea routes from SOU without encroaching on Flybe's territory could well be to be to the likes of Florence, Milan (Bergamo), Nice, Toulouse, Turin and Venice (Marco Polo).

With Flybe returning six Embraer 195s back to their lessors at the end of 2017 what becomes of their sun routes from Southampton, this is where Volotea should seriously think about some sort of expansion for summer 2018 as the market could be all theirs.

[Wycombe]

With Flybe returning six Embraer 195s back to their lessors at the end of 2017

Really? What about those committed to Project Blackbird at CWL (2), NQY (1), DSA (2), EXT/NWI (1). I believe they have 9 currently in service so don't see how they can afford to loose 6? Rumours also that a couple are going to SEN for the Stobart franchise op?

Agree with what you say re. why numbers dropped on AGP, FAO and ALC. Quite a lot of the ALC flights were on the Dash, which may have also been a factor.

[canberra97]

I have recently read that it was six EMB195s that were being returned to their lessors but had previously read it was just three, they are being returned to their lessors so it will be upto them as to where they finally end up, the rumours that they will go to Stobart are that just rumours especially from the Southend forum as I said they could end up anywhere once their leases are up with Flybe.

I wouldn't put Flybe and committed in one sentence and 'Project Blackbird' at the end if the day means sod all to Flybe, they just started the 'project' with the aim of getting subsidised operations at those airports you mentioned.

[RW20]

Canberra 97
With Volotea increasing capacity with a319s,would there be the pax to sustain the suggested routes?
Also has Southampton plateaued out with the restricted runway available to accommodate economic larger planes?

[Wycombe]

they just started the 'project' with the aim of getting subsidised operations at those airports you mentioned.

Indeed so, but aren't they committed to provide these subsidised ops for a period that extends beyond the end of 2017?

[Cloud1]

One of the two DSA based E195s changed to a E175....so I guess in theory both could go to the smaller jet. Likewise at CWL and NQY maybe those routes could change to the E175 with a slightly increased schedule to accommodate the drop in seat capacity.

If the Dash has been used numerous times on the SOU sun routes I guess that could become a more permanent solution rather than losing sun routes altogether from the Flybe network. What were the loads like on them? The dash doesn't bother me but did many people get turned off by it and not use the Flybe service?

[RW20]

Cloud1
I ask the question who would choose a Flybe dash to Palma,when you can fly Volotea a319 at a reduced price?
If Flybe continue to use the Dash on the sun routes from Southampton I'm sure the pax figures will decline.

[canberra97]

RW20

Exactly and that's why it would be a good move by Volotea if they looked into expanding their route network from Southampton, with the possible loss of any Flybe sun routes for 2018 that will obviously create some extra stand availability and the A319 is 'just about' ideal for operations from SOU without too many limitations unless someone in the future 'maybe Flybe' orders the CS100 and decide to fly them out of SOU.

With Volotea having such a large network from it's many European bases the possibility of some of those destinations such as the ones listed in my post 1430 could prove popular from SOU as the airports catchment area is far wider than most assume and a generally wealthy one as well.

I for one wouldn't like to see Flybe closing down any of the sun routes in 2018 and SOU is easily in a position to retain them if another airline came along and was committed to the routes, this would be so beneficial to the airport and then we would possibly see additional routes added and finally reach that 2 Million.

[Wycombe]

maybe Flybe' orders the CS100 and decide to fly them out of SOU

No doubt, as a major Bombardier customer, they will be pushing the CS100 to Flybe.

Can't see it though, as expensive jets almost contributed to their demise a few years back.

Believe they are committed to a few more 175's yet in any case?

[Janet Spongthrush]

I've just booked a September week trip to Palma on Volotea (£88pp rtn including seat allocation) and as it's a B717 I've had a look at expertflyer.com for late June and this shows

Tue: Volotea A319 and Flybe E195
Wed: Volotea B717
Thu: Flybe E195
Sat: Volotea A319
Sun: Volotea B717 and Flybe Dash 8

Thinking of the B717 vs Dash, a Skyscanner price on late June for a week on Sunday shows Volotea as £57rtn and Flybe £170rtn. Although I am biased, as a B717 fan, in the interests of balance, Tuesday flights show as Volotea £300rtn and Flybe £105rtn.....and TUI on the Volotea flight at £149rtn.

[RW20]

On an investment note and with Southend announcement today in mind,isn't about time we saw some money spent on airside at Southampton with relevantcy to extra stands?

[stewyb]

I don't think we will ever see any investment airfield side, this includes stands. Its ridiculous that we are about to start another summer season with Volotea operating an A319 potentially twice weekly and it will have to overlap 2 stands. An airport that should hit 2m passengers this year still has no accommodation for this size of plane, just bonkers!!

[davidjohnson6]

How many times per week does Southampton see an aircraft capable of holding 150+ passengers ?

[LGS6753]

...or perhaps more to the point, how many times per week would Southampton see an aircraft capable of holding 150+ passengers if they had better ability to handle it?

[stewyb]

Agreed although don't you still think it a little crazy that the airport doe's not have facilities when they do turn up? If they want to keep Volotea and maybe expand with them, the 319 will become the only alternative very soon!

[RW20]

LGS6753
So if Easyjet wanted to take over Flybe operations there is very little facitity for them!
Also Southend apron extension is for future development,they don't have the routes and movements that Southampton has at the moment,but are looking forward ,enough said!

[Rivet Joint]

RW20: Hit the nail on the head. BOH invested 50mil in new facilities with no real services to justify the investment. The difference? BOH is owned by an airport company. SEN is owned by a transport company. SOU? Owned by a pension fund. A nice steady profit is all that they care about. Its a shame MAG or Stobart didn't come in for SOU when it was up for sale. Much more going for it than BOH or SEN.

[Buster the Bear]

Pension funds take on investments for the medium to long term. No doubt Southampton makes a tidy profit for them and passenger figures are rising slowly albeit it that the majority of passengers are generated by Flybe or their franchise. Whenever I have flown through, the vast majority of travellers seem to be business related, thus the yields will be good. Not too sure where or how the airport could grow substantially within the footprint of the existing boundaries?

[stewyb]

Are plans afoot to start preparation for the northern runway extension? Just noticed from a very recent on board You Tube video of a KLM F70 landing from the north that it looks like the trees and bushes are being removed and groundwork leveled from outside the boundary fence on the centre line. Anybody else know?

[InterHaram]

I believe the area down towards the railway yard/chickenhall lane is being cleared for housing developments, despite the airport's management stating that they'd put a starter strip in. Hopefully not though, there was brief talk of upgrading ILS if they managed to increase usable runway length

[stewyb]

The removal of trees and bushes though is directly outside the airfield fence before you reach the rail sidings, no houses being built there!

[Centre cities]

The removal of trees and bushes though is directly outside the airfield fence before you reach the rail sidings, no houses being built there!

Would not a search of planning applications with Southampton Council reveal the reason for the ground clearance.

Centre cities

[canberra97]

The area concerned doesn't come under the control of Southampton City Council, it comes under The Borough of Eastleigh

[stewyb]

Thomson have released S18 timetable, Majorca stays at x 2 per week and Ibiza x 1. This is positive as other Thomson routes are in fact being reduced and presume they will again be operated by Volotea

[canberra97]

It is very good news considering the amount of cuts that have recently been announced by Thomson.

Whenever I see the Southampton thread highlighted I'm always dubious to open it because I fear it might be bad news but in this situation it's not, hopefully this might encourage Volotea to add another route or two especially if Flybe's sun routes are under threat for 2018.

[stewyb]

With Flybe's less than rosy financial outlook at present, I believe they will concentrate more on UK domestic routes and the summer/winter sun destinations might disappear sooner rather than later. In which case this is an ideal opportunity for someone to take them on and Volotea has to be in pole position!

[canberra97]

Stewyb

As this is a rumour site, what routes would you like to see Volotea start from Southampton IF they ever expanded with either based aircraft or aircraft from their existing bases.

Other than their existing flights to both Ibiza and Palma I could envisage the following destinations being added

Alicante
Bergamo
Faro
Florence
Malaga
Nice
Turin (winter)
Venice
Verona

Obviously this is just a bit of fun and shouldn't be taken too seriously.

[stewyb]

Its always good to speculate! I reckon Volotea might look to take on the routes of Malaga and Faro initially that Flybe has announced will not be continued in to winter 17/18. Alicante has been confirmed on Flybe's network for this period but this i'm sure will be operated by a Q400 whereas the other two destinations require the E195 and these are being gradually withdrawn over the next few months. As to the future, who knows!!:)

[MARKEYD]

Loloflights.co.uk | Flights to Greece (http://loloflights.co.uk).

Just found this link which initially sounds very interesting for Southampton but on closer inspection its the same outfit that advertised flights last summer from Bournemouth and Manchester to Skiathos then cancelled the programme due not enough time to start selling tickets and promoting the flights

They indicated they would re start bookings in 2017 much earlier in order to catch the summer peak bookings

All looks rather amateur to me ?

[adfly]

Could be an interesting venture, but they'd best get a move on if they want to catch peak summer bookings!

[RW20]

Adfly
Can a 195 reach Corfu with a full load from Southampton,and what airline are we talking about?

[adfly]

No idea on the carrier. I remember someone saying on here that FAO/DBV was about the limit for a full E195 from SOU in the summer, so I doubt Corfu or indeed the Canaries are accessible without notable load restrictions. I suspect the E190 would fair a bit better given it does LCY-Greek Isles with a fairly(?) small restriction.

MARKEYD - I do agree it looks rather amateur, I'm sure even 'last years' attempt at the MAN/BOH-Greece flights looked a little more legitimate...

[davidjohnson6]

Just tried making dummy bookings on the loloflights.com website - no availability on any dates it seems.
Suspect that unlike last year, the website is not really intended to be viewed as live

[shamrock7seal]

Their slogan seems to be 'aim to be cheaper than easyJet'

I smell a rat

[TartinTon]

There's a lot of kids out there doing their MSc's in air transport at the moment. Looks like a school project to me

[01475]

How many places have they copied and pasted their T&Cs from before running them through Google Translate?

Edit... quick Google of some samples says Small Planet has been one of the donees...

[cobopete]

Aurigny trislander pleasure flight from Eastleigh announced today for 1000 and 1115 on 4 May before last ac retired later in month ......go to website/Facebook page for info

[adfly]

SOU handled 157,499 passengers in March, up a solid 8% on last year. Few routes broken down in more detail below...

Cork - 44 pax / 61%
Dusseldorf - 37 pax / 47% (if it was 7 weekly during March or 42 pax / 54% if it was 6 weekly)
Lyon - 33 pax / 42%
Munich - 59 pax per flight (Will be interesting to see how much it drops now Flybe have pulled off the route)
Paris CDG - 49 pax / 62%

Full details here as ever https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-Airport-data/Airport-data-2017-03/

[Buster the Bear]

?E?conomies needed but "no ?Southampton ?job losses" new Flybe Chief Executive?? tells ITV News Meridian | Meridian - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2017-05-08/economies-needed-but-no-southampton-job-losses-new-flybe-chief-executive-tells-itv-news-meridian/)

[RW20]

I see that Powdair have announced today 4 flights a week from Southampton,for there ski programme.
It's difficult to see how this will be maintained,but good luck to them,it means a A319 in for the winter.

[Newforest2]

News release said Powdair would be using a Fokker 100.

[adfly]

4 weekly flights seems ambitious, given that's more than there are to Geneva on Chambery this coming winter! Hopefully they have some good allocations from tour operators to fill these flights up.

[RW20]

Adfly
Could it be that Powdair have allocations from tour operators to fill the seats?
Also I understand that they will use a A319?

[SOUSpotter96]

Just got thinking today, is there a market for Madrid?, possibly with someone like AirEuropa?, they have the Embraers, so I see no reason other than demand as to why it couldn't work. Just someone I'd like to see at SOU too.

[RW20]

Souspotter96

Vueling tried Barcelona in recent times,and it didn't work,so I wonder if Madrid would be viable?
Due to Runway restrictions at Southampton I feel there is limited expansion ahead other then domestic/channel hoping routes.

[adfly]

166,198 passengers went through SOU in April, showing a strong 14% increase on last year (helped partially by the later Easter). Some route breakdowns below:

Alicante - 109 pax / 92%
Cork - 52 pax / 72%
Dusseldorf - 51 pax / 66%
Faro - 102 pax / 87%
Lyon - 27 pax / 35%
Malaga - 105 pax / 89%
Munich - 24 pax / 48% (Now just BMI, based on all E145, actual % will be a little higher as a result)
Palma - 57 pax / 73%
Paris CDG - 61 pax / 78% (Increased from 7 to 12 weekly, but 12 weekly Paris Orly service was also dropped)

Sun routes are doing very well loads wise considering how early it is in the season. Hopefully someone will pick up the incoming slack next year (looks like the E195's are actually going this time). Other routes are also pretty good although Lyon continues to struggle.

All data from here https://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analysis/UK-aviation-market/Airports/Datasets/UK-Airport-data/Airport-data-2017-04/

[Buster the Bear]

Good to see the Cork service doing well having used it last year.

Palma looks low, but it is early season.

[SOUSpotter96]

Souspotter96

Vueling tried Barcelona in recent times,and it didn't work,so I wonder if Madrid would be viable?
Due to Runway restrictions at Southampton I feel there is limited expansion ahead other then domestic/channel hoping routes.

It's a shame really, they could have a great airport if it wasn't for the restrictions. Does make you wonder why Madrid hasn't been mentioned or thought about before. I think AE would be perfect to fill the void.

Good to see the numbers are up too.

[Rivet Joint]

Vueling were using the wrong equipment. I went to BCN earlier this month and it felt a bit silly having to drive to LGW to fly there. AE do have the same embraers that BE do so could make it work along with MAD. I suspect they don't have room to serve these routes though. I do get the feeling that now V7 are moving to an Airbus fleet that it could bring about the end of their operation at SOU. Hopefully I am wrong. Still think the c-series is the key to unlocking SOU's potential. We just need someone to order it! Come on EZY!

[shamrock7seal]

Apparently they are considering moving the flights to operate from BOH

[RW20]

If this is true,then could this mean the end of Sunshine routes from Southampton?
The lack of investment airside and more to the point the development of the master plan runway extension could have reprucussions on the airport future.Simply awaiting for the c series to come along is nieve to say the least,as it is yet to be ordered by an English carrier.

[MARKEYD]

That would seem a really strange thing to do as that would almost certainly kill them off the route to Palma

Going head to head with Ryanair on a daily flight and Thomson as well in the mix

[SOUSpotter96]

Plan's for a possible expansion of the airport to be released later in the year.

[RW20]

Congratulations to the airport for surpassing 2 million passengers for the first time.
Also there seems to be proposals for the airport to expand ,plans to be announced in the Autumn.
The plans I hope will include the 450 feet north end runway extension formally proposed in 2014.
Stands will also have to be increased,and enlarged to accommodate Airbus sized aircraft,and obviously terminal enlargement.The question to be asked is will these proposals be acceptable to council planning permission and public support?.
Finally for the airport to move forward from its present successful position,big decisions need to be made,exciting times ahead!

[Buster the Bear]

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2017-05-30/southampton-airport-reveals-expansion-plans/

[shamrock7seal]

How was the load factor on the first Exeter flight?

[SOUSpotter96]

To increase the stands and enlarge them and the terminal I wonder if the Royal Mail building will be bought and demolished, Maybe even stands on the NE side of the Airport if that's possible. I Certainly look forward to seeing this plan and hope it can live up to expectations of something we'd all like. Here's hoping the ambition will draw in new airlines with larger AC or the new CS series, even Swiss would be a great edition.

[RW20]

Souspotter96
I don't think we should be to excited by this news,as we have been here before with the master plan dating back to 2005.I believe that this is a revision of this plan,and as such will probably never happen.
There has been plenty of opportunity to improve much needed airside projects like stand size, additional taxiway etc,but sadly investment has not been provided.The airport will continue to make money for the shareholders,but without the investment for improvements​ there will be limited opportunity for additional airlines and routes.

[TCAS FAN]

#1484 "....it will announce its full expansion plans later in the year"

Here we go again? Another Terminal makeover, additional parking spaces in the short term car park (by reducing the width of spaces, again!), another car park, more baggage trollies.......?

If it doesn't involve a runway starter strip, and more apron parking space (on the west side of the runway) it will be yet more hot air and a total waste of time, effort and money.

We've been there so many times before.

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: Exactly what I was thinking. With the grinning goon still at the helm (it has to be a decade by now surely?) I expect the stagnant and underwhelming progress to continue. Perhaps the investment constitutes a new pencil sharpener for the office or new scented toilet blocks for the urinals? On a serious note, I am willing to bet any concrete investment will be one of the following three things:

1. A larger costa coffee or duty free shop;

2. Refresh to the toilets or security/baggage areas;

3. Improvements to the car parking.

Basically, some redecorating. The message i get is that they feel that their existing master plan is too ambitious and they are therefore going to announce a less ambitious one in the autum. This is classic PR spin from SOU and the grinning goon (the man that takes credit for investment by network rail and the highways authority) as in fact rather than proposing credible investment they are in actually going to take their own master plan down a few notches.

If I was in charge I would be ensuring the following is now happening:

1. Royal Mail are pursuaded to sell their building to SOU. Perhaps even offer them one of the units that is planned for the north east of the airport on better rates. Not a given but if incentives are offered who knows.

2. Larger aircraft stands are built to the north east. The fact SOU can only handle 2 larger sized aircraft at the same time is both laughable and crippling. Most airports bus passengers to stands so the distance from the terminal is not an issue.

3. Build taxiways to stop aircraft having to backtrack the runway. Again this is both laughable and crippling.

4. Enlarge the runway to the north within the airport boundary. This would be to allow larger aircraft to operate without restrictions not increase their number. This would improve safety and allow aircraft to operate quieter. If this was properly explained then residents and the council would have no issue.

5. Market the land to the north east to an aircraft builder, maintenance provider or business aviation company. How many airports have the option of brand new land ready to be unlocked with direct access to a runway? Why couldn't it be used for aviation activities rather than some pointless industrial units unrelated to aviation use.

Time will tell but I look forward to winning my bet.

[stewyb]

Maybe just maybe they will put a plan in to action for a change!

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint

We certainly appear to be on the same frequency, unlike The Grinning Goon and one of his predecessors, The Hobbette, who did not even appear to be on the same frequency band!

I had the misfortune to suffer both watching the latter destroy any significant apron expansion when he went ahead, against our advice, to build the short term car park extension up to the boundary fence adjacent to Stands 7-10.

[RW20]

As I have stated in the earlier post,I fear this is just an excercise in updating the woefully unusable master plan 2005.One thing is clear and that is unless the airport has significant airside improvements,and that means all the recent quoted posts list,then it will not sustain passenger growth that it has seen in recent times.

[stewyb]

Rivet

Agree with all your points except I do not see the RM building being moved and instead, why cannot the airport reduce the 5 cul de sac stands to 4 and incorporate larger stands to accommodate 319/320 size. This means only the loss of 1 stand that I am sure can be worked around?!

[SOUSpotter96]

VistaJetMalta Bombardier Challenger repeatedly circling over Southampton at about 6000ft, it's come from Newquay, anyone with any news about it?.

[stewyb]

Any news on W17 sun routes as Flybe have not confirmed Malaga or Faro, only Alicante and they suggested all timetables would be released by end May?

[SOUSpotter96]

Any news on W17 sun routes as Flybe have not confirmed Malaga or Faro, only Alicante and they suggested all timetables would be released by end May?

Maybe this means they have cancelled it or maybe (hopefully) another carrier is or extra charters?.
On a side note, just had G-OSRA (B727) go over at 4500ft and what a sound that was, shame 727's are rarely used now.

[Wycombe]

Any news on W17 sun routes as Flybe have not confirmed Malaga or Faro, only Alicante and they suggested all timetables would be released by end May?

This suggests to me that they will operate ALC on the Dash, and that AGP and FAO won't be operated as there won't be any 195's to do so?

[MARKEYD]

Who knows with Flybe , last year they never announced the Malaga / Faro and Alicante continuation until July when they re scheduled the Manchester flight to continue onto those destinations

I would imagine with most people it was a little to late to book by that stage but loads seemed adequate throughout the winter

[stewyb]

Judging by their financials disclosed today, Flybe's sun routes are very unlikely to return anytime soon and a large scale de-fleet and route rationalisation must be a priority. Come on Volotea, you know you want to!😉

[Rivet Joint]

BEs results are for me a final warning to SOU to get their act together and invest airside. I believe having two aircraft of that size in at once is a big stretch for airside operations and for these long standing sun routes to continue SOU need to create better infrastructure for them ASAP. I have my doubts that Volotea could make the routes work on an A319 as Vueling didn't seem to make the Barcelona route work with similar equipment. Does anyone know if a fully loaded A319 can operate on SOU's runway? Does anyone know whether the CRJ 700/900 or 1000 can operate? I know I keep going on about it, but the C series is the answer and Volotea seem like the perfect customer. They operate from secondary bases that other airlines don't see a market from. The c series was created for long thin routes.