SOUTHAMPTON

[adfly]

I always thought the newer CRJ's (700/900/1000) had reasonably good runway performance? They would need at lot of advertising of the route for it to fill an E190 although it could just about work out if done well.

[hampshireandy]

They could probably fill a 190 if it overnighted at SOU and departed at similar times to the AMS and ORY flights to cater for the business market. The flybe early afternoon timings to FRA were a bit odd. Maybe the SOU airport new business team are on the phone to LH as we speak?!

[Rivet Joint]

Davidjohnson6: trolling much? Let me guess you are from Bristol :rolleyes:.

To start with the route has good loads that have grown and grown despite the fact it operates only once a day and at a dreadful time meaning any business pax have to stop over to get a days business done. Plus Southampton has and is primarily aimed at the business passenger with Frankfurt being one of the big financial centres. So a good start.

Further and perhaps why the route might work better than bristol is that a lot of the armed forces posted in Germany have their bases in hampshire and use this route. Not so sure Bristol has this market.

An erj-190 is not massively bigger than a q400 and lets not forget both Lufthansa and even Air Berlin have q400's in their fleets :hmm:.

[davidjohnson6]

Rivet - not trying to troll at all - just think that expecting LH to come to Southampton when other larger cities do not have FRA flights needs strong justification to be taken seriously.

You may wish to note that in the late 1990s I lived for over a year less than 30 mins walj from SOU airport

[adfly]

I do see your point davidjohnson6 although the reasons for SOU being a viable route for LH are detailed in both Rivet Joint's and my own posts:

-Hub connectivity - currently only a KLM codeshare from SOU whereas the other airports have links to at least 2 other uk/european hubs each.

-Flybe's route had fairly good loads despite only 1 daily flight which was/is poorly timed for business travellers.

-Strong Military links between Southampton/South Coast and Germany (Remember the AB Paderborn route?)

-Reasonable O&D traffic between the two cities (Leisure pax to FRA and SOU, plenty of cruise pax come from Germany, Language Schools/Foreign Exchanges, Business pax - Frankfurt is a major financial citiy)

So from this although SOU is smaller than the airports mentioned it has plenty of good reasons why it could support such a route and also neither of the other cities have had a route to FRA running in the last few years (BRS is probably the last of them in 2009) whereas Flybe have maintained their poorly timed flight from SOU for quite some time further showing that a LH route could work well.

[MerchantVenturer]

Further and perhaps why the route might work better than bristol is that a lot of the armed forces posted in Germany have their bases in hampshire and use this route. Not so sure Bristol has this market.


The point about the armed services is certainly true re the Bristol area.

LH operated Bristol-Frankfurt for 13 months from April 2008 until April 2009 using Eurowings Bae 146-300 aircraft. LH picked up the route after Flybe had abandoned it in 2007 following its acquisition of BAConnect. In fact, the route had operated continuously for nearly ten years by BAConnect and its predecessor BA franchisees.

The summer 2008 LH timetable called for 3 rotations each day of the week (21 weekly). Given the size of the aircraft this seemed a touch over optimistic. The winter saw a reduction to 2 x daily during the week and hardly anything at weekends.

Nevertheless, in the 13 months of operation just under 99,000 passengers were carried (CAA stats) and the route was axed in the face of the recession's grip, possibly with an eye to preventing dilution of the company's LHR and BHX routes. BRS was the newest and weakest, so was the obvious one to go in the circumstances.

As always loads do not define profitability but at the time there was much comment in PPRuNe and on other sites as to the high fares.

At another time in the economic cycle the BRS-FRA route might have survived, or it might have required smaller aircraft.

This shows the sort of challenge SOU might face if it is serious about a LH FRA operation.

[nonemmet]

I don't know why the UK military (Army) would be interested in flying to Frankfurt, maybe the US military but not the British Army. The old British sector where the few remaining Army personnel are based is hundreds of km to the North, funnily enough not far from Paderborn. Hannover would be a far more practical route, and...... Flybe still fly from Southampton to Hannover.

[Rivet Joint]

David: Certainly see your point.

I guess me and Adfly although putting forward a convincing argument are being optimistic about attracting LH. However I do still think there is a market for an operator to serve this route. Although I also think a route to Poland seing as Sou is apparently 1/8th Polish is in order yet still nothing :}.

Nonemmet: you have shown up my limited knowledge re military bases in Germany with aplomb!

[BOHEuropean]

SOU-FRA was always a poor performer with low loads. No surprise to see it finally go after BRU.

[Rivet Joint]

BOHEuropean: Classic trolling. No one take the bait. Thanks for coming Boh, chin up it might never happen :ok:.

[easyflyer83]

To be fair, many Cities can raise reasons why a FRA, or many other routes, would work. Leeds is a big financial centre, Southampton with a large military community (although I think this one is being over emphasised).

I don't like the idea that people get accused of trolling just because they live closer to an airport other than the one being commented on.

[Aero Mad]

Sorry easyflyer, but have you actually read his post? I'm very pro-BOH and SOU (believing that both can coexist due to their differences), but it seems extremely obvious that he is just pinching a rare opportunity to put down the neighbouring 'team' - or in this case airport. Rather pathetic really, especially given the expansive list of routes which, for one reason or another, have come and gone at Bournemouth.

[shamrock7seal]

I'm pretty certain Flybe will be looking for an alternative to replace the lost capacity, perhaps Hamburg, Berlin, Munich or even Warsaw could do with some direct service from the South Coast that isn't London centric.

[shamrock7seal]

New Barcelona route attracted only 38% load factors for the first few days of its operation in Jun'12.

Hopefully this will pick up somewhat in July, but if they don't get the loads up to about 75% for the busy summer season I doubt this route will last beyond Oct'12.

[BOHEuropean]

Wow guys. Just wow.

I signed up with this username 5 years ago. Just because it has BOH in it's title, that doesn't mean I'm a sad pathetic that jumps on the band-wagon when anything in the slightest bit negative happens to another local airport.

The two airports serve very different markets, we're in a SOU thread so let's just discuss SOU related topics, shall we? Without bringing BOH into it to make your nickers get all twisted.

SOU airport is actually responsible for my income, not Bournemouth. I was purely reflecting that I believed the axing of this route was a long time coming, just like the Brussels route that got axed towards the end of March. Capacity has to come from somewhere to enable Flybe to expand it's partnership with Brussels Airlines to four aircraft this winter. Poor performing routes, doesn't matter what bases they come from, have to be dropped if they've been tried and tested. The company's losing money & the capacity can go elsewhere to make a better return on investment.

Grow up.

[Aero Mad]

just like the Brussels route that got axed towards the end of March

...which has now been replaced, quite successfully, by T3. So talking of growing up...

If the EMA base grows then that will have to get its aircraft from somewhere so we may see a DH4 or two heading north. BE have yet to announce formerly a number of routes which they committed to following the announcement of bmibaby's forthcoming demise.

[Nakata77]

If anything went wrong with Flybe and assuming BA didn't want to step in to save it, what would happen with SOU? It seems as though pretty much 90% of the passenger traffic is attributable to Flybe from there. Who would step in should the 'hypothetical' ever happen?

[hampshireandy]

Good point Nakata,...memo to SOU management, dont put all your eggs in one basket!!

[TCAS FAN]

But if the basket breaks, SOU is no longer viable as an airport, as a brown field site most of the planning restrictions are removed for a site change of use, BAA sell off a prime development site with excellent travel connections, another chunk of Ferrovial debt paid, sorted!

How can I invest in BOH?

[davidjohnson6]

Southampton has 600m more asphalt than Plymouth, has an ample sized terminal, well equipped in terms of infrastructure, is next to a substantial population centre, is well connected by road and train to the region and has shown itself to be capable of sustaining over 1.75m passengers per year. The Southampton-Edinburgh route alone manages 200,000 passengers

Typically, if an airline fails, other airlines will find a way to pick up the profitable routes within a few months and get passenger numbers going again.

If Ferrovial want to sell SOU to reduce some of their debt, they can do so now while passenger numbers are good - no need to wait for disaster to strike. Even if Flybe were to shut down, and Ferrovial lose confidence, it is likely that another airport management company or infrastructure fund would be interested as a purchaser

So why would SOU cease to be viable as an airport ?

[Rob446]

If the site ceased to be an airport, you can probably bet that the train companies will no longer bother to stop there - at least on the more popular services from London and Manchester etc.

It will become a suburban station like St Denys, Swaythling etc.

[TCAS FAN]

Rob446

If you check, most of the revenue generated by "Southampton Airport Parkway" is generated by the "Parkway" bit. The recent investment in a 500 + multi storey car park was not to accomodate airport PAX cars, it was to cash in in the London commuter market, which has sustained rail station development. Having an airport on the doorstep is just a bonus.

[Rivet Joint]

Oh dear, has all got very silly on here. See the usual trolls have crept out from under their stones :hmm:.

Lets take a stock,

Southampton:

The cruise capital of northern Europe with 4 cruise terminals and therefore thousands embarking/disembarking daily (indeed recently 30,000 people in one day). Also head office of many of the cruise companies and base for staff transfer (upwards of 800 per ship).

One of the biggest oil refineries in England.

The second biggest container port in the country and the biggest exporter of vehicles in the whole of UK.

2 universities with one of them being in the top 10 of the whole country and being a national leader in various high end fields. Indeed thousands of Asian students come year round.

The best art collection outside London.

The home of the biggest boat show in the UK.

Massively multicultural population.

History wise the airport and city are closely associated with the Spitfire and of course Southampton is where the Titanic set sail from so big draws for tourists.

Also has a royal naval base and many army and RAF bases close by.

Home of a premiership football team with the biggest stadium on the south coast which will also be one of the venues for the 2018 rugby world cup.

The airport has a modern upmarket terminal with a security fast track probably only bettered by LCY and of course is bordered by the main motorway to London and has the closest plane to train distance in the UK.

Also outside the big London airports and Manchester it has the highest number of passengers on nearly all its domestic routes than any other UK airport (200,000 yearly alone on the Edinburgh route – I make that pretty much a ¼ of Bournemouth’s total yearly volume!)

Now Bournemouth......................... :hmm:

It has a beach?

Lets all await the trolls to nitpick but at the end of the day it’s a one sided argument so lets just stick to our own boards. Surely you have better things to be doing. The routes were cut because they are taking a gamble on EMA which is such a great airport that its main airline is being closed down. Case closed.

[SWBKCB]

Oh dear, has all got very silly on here

it was all going so well and then...

biggest stadium on the south coast

Isn't that a bit like boasting about being the tallest man in Lilliput??? :)

[MerchantVenturer]

Also outside the big London airports and Manchester it has the highest number of passengers on nearly all its domestic routes than any other UK airport (200,000 yearly alone on the Edinburgh route – I make that pretty much a ¼ of Bournemouth’s total yearly volume!)

CAA stats for 2011:

BHX 289,000, BRS 286,000, SOU 203,000 to EDI

BRS 222,000, BHX 212,000, SOU 139,000 to GLA

BHX 309,000, SOU 86,000, BRS 42,000 to BHD

BRS 179,000 to BFS (no SOU or BHX route) so adding the Belfasts together SOU is in third place of these three airport, and Liverpool is well ahead of all three.

BRS 168,000, SOU 91,000, BHX 13,000 to NCL

BRS 75,000, BHX 30,000, SOU 2,000 to INV

BHX 83,000, BRS 33,000, SOU 22,000 to ABZ

SOU certainly scores highly on such routes as Manchester and the Channel Islands compared with most other regional airports but the above figures show that on a number of domestic routes they are outperformed by other regional airports and not exclusively by BRS and BHX.

[hampshireandy]

Might Flybe end up getting its wingtips burnt if the exodus to EMA turns sour? If BAA let another airline have the slots vacated by Flybe at SOU(eg, the FRA flights) and then things go a bit t**s up at EMA and flybe want to return, will they be told, sorry, there is no room at the inn??

[CaptAirProx]

I wish BAA would sell it - allowing a far more realistic management to come in and steer the airport. I feel BAA are slowly driving the airlines customers away with their half baked ideas of traffic management.

It seems BAA pride themselves in having to try and re-invent the wheel several times over perhaps with newly promoted staff being offered 'projects' to bring to fruition.

There are more middle managers and compliance of compliance managers than I government quango team.

I have never seen so many different painted lines and markings to direct you onto the correct piece of concrete. Blocked off pavements, barriers, kerb stones, marshalls, escape lanes, signage that is too complicated. It would take a new management to say hangon - are we not making this far too complicated and going full circle - shall we go back to the beginning and start again!

As an example - pax have to use short term carpark for drop off - fair enough, makes sense. But no, having made access to forecourt area impregnable unless you jump the barrier behind the bus they decide to reduce the waiting time for drop off from 20 mins i think, down to 10mins. Hardly making it a breeze for passengers. Then they wonder why they have to spend further money trying to manage the drop off offenders blocking the roundabout. Surely all they have to do is lengthen the drop of time limit to something more attractive to pax and the problem will kind of resolve itself. It seems it makes good management sense to create a problem and then solve it. . . I guess it gives them a job!

BAA - you seem hell bent on antagonising yours and your clients customers!

[hampshireandy]

You only have to look at Gatwick to see how an airport can improve considerably once BAA are removed from the equation.

[Rivet Joint]

BAA certainly seem to have a fondness for turning the terminals into a shopping mall! SOU is in desperate need of taxiways to reduce backtracking of the runway and the long awaited stands to the east. Their main customer has just invested in aircraft that can only fit on 4 of Sou's stands! Absolute madness not to invest recession or not! Can see BE just looking after their monopoly for the foreseeable future and Sou falling into a malaise :ugh:.

[GCILover]

Why would it take any longer than 10 minutes to drop someone off

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "There are more middle managers and compliance of compliance managers than I government quango team."

Quote: It seems it makes good management sense to create a problem and then solve it. . . I guess it gives them a job!"

It's always the same, there's very little difference between government organisations/QANGOs and big business. Bungling, bureaucratic, ineffective and cumbersome, with too many layers of management, usually of an abysmal standard.

If you want lean and efficient, look at small business.

Regretable, but true. Why? because it's a case of taxpayers' or shareholders' money versus your own money, and you don't waste your own money!

[Nakata77]

In my opinion, their ownership of SOU is strategic. If it got into the wrong hands it could potentially dent LHR traffic since SOU pulls in quite a fair amount of South and West London catchment. It is in their interest to keep SOU manageable in terms of size and scale.

[CaptAirProx]

GCIlover - I agree 10mins 'should' be enough time if firstly you know exactly where you are going, secondly all you are doing is dropping off - ie chuck em out the car and finally can be arsed with the hassle.

The last one is always going to be there, however watch how people baulk at the entrance to tha carpark, then dither, then drive slowly, probably parking in the wrong area and getting shouted at by 'authority'. Some passengers want to quickly wave their friends/family off into the terminal. Now I am not saying they should be allowed half hour to go fart around in the terminal but for most I bet you 10mins seems rather risky to dare chance it. (yes I know the 10mins isn't really 10mins according to BAA staff) but that is what is displayed on the matrix board. I think 15 or 20mins just gives the nervous time to fanny around, hugs n kisses and maybe escort the grandmother/father into the terminal and point them to the right desk.

The short stay carpark is hardly ever at capacity so it would be taking little or no revenue from BAA for extending it. But might release the danger and stress hotspot around the round about and barriers. It is both funny and frustrating watching the continuous argie bargie that goes on as someone breaks the rules. It really need not be like this. I find it rather pathetic that BAA have actually encouraged this to happen by their own policies. Yes there will always be the sod that breaks the rules, but I watch what I would normaly pre judge as good folk dumping their bags on the roundabout.

I want to be there when trigger happy SOU ATC press the crash alarm and all of Hampshires finest appliances come hurtling down the access road to be confronted with cars dumped on the roadabout, airport bus trapped mid swing and the UNIlink bus blocking the entrance to roundabout.

So health and safety guru's that BAA proclaim to be - can't see the wood for the trees. See now this would all be solved if the passengers were mandated to wear a high viz jacket - DONE UP - and life would return to a safe and secure environemt. Maybe this is the next project for some new upstart in the compliance of compliance office of elf and safety and line painting and sign making management?!?!?!

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "In my opinion, their ownership of SOU is strategic. If it got into the wrong hands it could potentially dent LHR traffic since SOU pulls in quite a fair amount of South and West London catchment. It is in their interest to keep SOU manageable in terms of size and scale."

Not so much south London, they have good links to LGW, but certainly west London, also parts of Middlesex and Surrey. It's certainly easier to get to than LTN and STN. A small regional airport like SOU is hardly a threat to LHR, as there's only a little overlap in the business. Even NHT, if it is ever opened up, would not threaten LHR in any way, and that is only 6 mi. away.

[MARKEYD]

THOMSON HOLIDAYS

Looks like Thomson / First choice are giving Southampton another go next summer with flights to Palma again , albeit using Flybe as the carrier of choice with 2 services a week throughout the summer season

Palma Friday 1700 and Monday 0900

Thomas Cook are operating again using Flybe

Palma Sat 0700
Ibiza Sat 1400
Mahon Sun 0740

[globetrotter79]

Looks very much like Thomson are simply buying seats on the existing flyBe scheduled services Fridays & Mondays SOU-PMI, whereas Thomas Cook are operating whole aircraft charters on their weekend Balearic flights..

[leisurelad]

I know this has probably been discussed before but i wonder what the performance range is of the following aircraft in max pax capacity and say 20kg bag each.

737-300/400/700
A319
A320

Maybe even an MD80

Thanks

[adfly]

leisurelad - don't know any exact figures and there are a lot of variables but i'd guess for most it is around 900-1000nmi (PMI/BCN-AGP/DBV/FAO sort of range) based on where airlines have flown those types previously.

Also does anyone else think Volotea would consider SOU if they chose to enter the UK market? They seem to be the sort of airline who may choose an airport like SOU away from the main Loco players and assuming the 717's performance off short runways is reasonably good then the type suits SOU well. Their main bases are also cities currently unserved from SOU (IBZ excluded). Could possibly see a couple of flights a week to VCE working along with IBZ and NTE in the summer although this would be on the condition of the routes not being trampled on by Flybe of course!

Also heard Cityjet may be going independent from Air France soonish as part of restructuring but I'm not sure how well they would be able to compete with Flybe if they ever did start any SOU routes.

Finally, flew from SOU recently and from a food and drink perspective things are looking quite good now and the terminal is as small and easy to get around as ever but there must be a way of fitting in a shop or two that isn't WHSmith!! Also now you can only pick up and drop off in the short stay car park but I suppose at least you get 10 minutes free! As for arrivals I can't comment as a 10 hour delay due to an Embraer going tech in ALC meant I ended up in BOH, which has a modern, basic and smallish arrivals terminal.:p

[adfly]

Also Flybe are dropping Tours from 18th August, I do hope they find some new routes/frequency's to replace this lost capacity!

[Nakata77]

Southampton managed around 174,000 pax in Jul'12, but this was down 9% - the biggest fall the airport has seen I believe during the economic downturn.

Barcelona doesn't look as good as it should be considering this is one of the most demanded routes by the local population. Perhaps Vueling is not marketing itself well? Or Ryanair is fighting with its BOH-GRO service? Load factor was around 55%, an improvement on June which was only 38% but not terribly good for a peak month.

[adfly]

Not looking great I must admit. 55% is around 82/83 so not really awful but certainly in need of improvement by Loco standards. I'm hoping by the fact the route has been extended from Mid September to late October that things are looking up later on in the year and I think even considering the fairly low loads so far the route is yet to establish itself so I think Vueling will probably bring it back next year, hopefully putting it on sale earlier than they did this year as I feel they missed out on the peak 'Holiday Booking' time around January, which may contribute to the low loads in the early months.

There is however some good news, from October Flybe will close its LGW base and as a result will transfer its Nantes route to SOU. Not sure of the frequency but there will be 6 weekly slots available from FRA being dropped and a further 2 from TUF being dropped.

EDIT: A quick check of the Flybe website reveals the route will operate daily using the same time-frame as the Frankfurt flight Mon-Fri and Sun and an early morning flight on Sat. 21 rows on the seatmap so I'm assuming its a Q400.

[MARKEYD]

I think the Vuelling Barcelona figures are slightly less with 1827 passengers using the service in July on a A319 seating 150 passengers

More like an average of 70 passengers per flight or a 47 % load

[adfly]

Aurigny:

ACI continues at a lower frequency than previous years (~2 Daily)

Blue Islands:

JER and GCI both around 3 Daily weekdays, with less at the weekend (J31/2)

Eastern:

Same as the summer 11 weekly ABZ and 6 weekly BRU. Mon-Fri flights are all J41 and Sun flights are all S20.

Flybe:

New Route:

Nantes Daily Q400

Dropped routes (vs last winter):

Frankfurt 6 weekly Q400
Brussles 5 weekly Q400
Isle of Man 5 weekly Q400
Berne 1 weekly Q400 (Peak Ski season only)

Also seems as though SOU will lose one of its 2 E195's for the winter to BHD although there isn't much for them to do, nowhere near as many Ski flights as last year. There is (1 Sat/Sun GVA, 1 Sat/Sun CMF, 1 Sat SZG) so less than half what was offered during the peak ski season last year. Also far fewer ski charter flights as well. However the EDI based flights for that route will be upgraded from a Q400 to an E175 (around 3 daily flights, 4 Mon and Fri) so theres some small good news to go with the Nantes route!

Skybus:

IOS operates as it has last year 3 weekly via NQY. (DHT)

Thomas Cook: Nothing for the winter but back next summer with PMI, MAH and IBZ.

Thomson: As above but selling seats on Flybe's PMI service next summer.

Vueling: BCN looking to be seasonal, hopefully they will have a better go at it next year!

[Nakata77]

I would be adding the following routes from Southampton:

Copenhagen - 5 weekly E-175
Knock - summer only E-195
Madrid - daily E-195
Prague 3 weekly E-175
Innsbruck - winter only E-175
Warsaw - 3 or 4 weekly E-175
Krakow - 3 weekly E-175
Berlin - 4 weekly E-175
Hamburg - daily E-175
Rome - daily E-195
Venice - 3 weekly E-195
Vienna - 3 weekly E-175
Derry - 3 weekly E-175
Shannon - 4 weekly E-175
Lyon - 4 weekly E-175
Oslo - 4 weekly E-175
Stockholm - 4 weekly E-175
Bergen - 3 weekly E-195
Helsinki - 3 weekly E-195
Gdansk - 2 weekly E-175

Still so much potential but they don't seem to be capitalising on it.

[davidjohnson6]

Nakata - a lot of new airports and routes for flybe there... opening them all might incur quite a high level of risk. Perhaps there is a smaller set of new routes that could be tried initially instead ?

[Nakata77]

Forgive me - of course not all at the same time; that would be a very risky move. Can be phased over 3 years. But my point is they need to be more aggressive. The routes are out there for the plucking. But they don't seem to be moving?

[adfly]

Two routes missing from that ideal lot, Milan 5-7 weekly E175 and Cork 4-7 weekly Q400 (More likely with Aer Lingus Regional is you ask me though) :)

However I think they would have to be added very slowly and even then I think we will have to wait until the economy picks up. The short Irish routes such as Derry, Knock and Shannon would also be best served by Q400's and I would also add that most routes would have to be built up to those sorts of frequency's and equipment as will the airport itself (Only stands 1-5 can handle E175's and 2-5 for E195's!) and I would imagine BAA would also have to find a way of making more space in the terminal, ideally with a couple more shops, as there's only 2 currently!!

I personally would like to see Flybe expand from SOU but at a slower rate than other and new airlines, thus reducing their dominance and also the airports dependability on them.

[anne747380]

Can't believe,they are taking out another E-195 from Soton,now we will have one left,that's a joke.Does that mean,I will have to suffer the dreadful Q400 to Manchester as well?Bad enough to go on them to Hannover all the time.Isn't it about time,Flybe upgrade to a E-Jet on the SOU-HAJ route,the plane is always full so there is demand there.Hope,we will get some other airlines now,who use jets.

[adfly]

1 of the Manchester flights will be on an E175 during the winter season and I think the mid afternoon one is still an E195. I think we'll eventually see an E175 based at SOU hopefully next year at some point when more join the fleet although there is only room for 2/3 (Should still get 3 E195's on Summer weekends) to be based here anyway, thanks to the lack of stands for taller aircraft (Only 1-5).

[Cloud1]

Anne, the problem is if Flybe will react to demand. If a jet can be filled on a domestic or short haul European route out of Manchester, but not Southampton logic will mean that aircraft is transferred. If they didnt and they just allowed seats to go empty, the airline might not be here in 12 months time so your trips to Manchester or Hannover could be a little more tricky.

I know the Q400 is like marmite, you either love it or hate it - however I would only be too pleased to have our local airport be as big as Southampton full of Q400 aircraft opening up new destinations to me and my family. I do not care what type of plane it is because convenience would outweigh that in my eyes. As long as they are not expecting me to fly over to Avignon in a Twin Otter, I wouldnt care less. And yes, I have been on the Q400 several times and its certainly an improvement on the older -300 or other prop driven aircraft in operation.

Whilst I admire the route suggestions on here, if Flybe were in a position to simply test the water at some of those destinations they would have done it by now. The fact is times are tough (although not as bad as made out in the press) and they have to juggle whats left of the fleet, as best they can. Starting a new route requires a huge amount of financial investment in marketing and other bits on top of the operational costs so making money in the current network is whats going to be their priority right now.

Having said that, Flybe have finally cottoned on to the fact that there is demand between BHX and AMS. This shows that they are still keeping an eye on the market and if an opportunity should arise at somewhere like Southampton I am sure they will have a go if they feel fully confident it will be a success.

Southampton plays a crucial role in Flybes network and to date it is still one of the largest bases. It takes an awful lot of passengers who would otherwise use Londons main airports and is something they will want to keep hold of. Just because some routes have been chopped does not mean the investment is not there.

It is ironic though because people are crying out for new routes from Southampton from Flybe, and a bigger presence. But throw in a cancellation due tech and all of a sudden they are the worst thing going. But thats just the way the industry goes I guess

[Nakata77]

I can't find SOU report and accounts anywhere, but it is a public company so the information should be available. How much does the airport make each year in profit?

[shamrock7seal]

Nakata: you didn't look hard enough.

Profit before interest and tax was 10m in 2011 calendar year.

This is from a total revenue stream of 28m. (16m of which is Aeronautical, 9m is retail and 2m is property. 'Other' accounts for the 1m left whatever that is)

[adfly]

Thomas Cook are adding Verona next summer selling seats on Flybe's scheduled Saturday flight. They must be quite happy with SOU as they have added routes fairly eagerly, I think we may eventually see some of the Balearic flights on TCX metal (most likely A320's) but I suppose that depends on the availability of aircraft.

[MARKEYD]

Looks like Vuelling are only operating till the end of Sept with the Oct flights not now bookable

figures for August on a A319 150 seater were 2350 passengers with a 60 % load factor ( 90 pax roughly )

[hampshireandy]

I think its safe to say that Vuelling wont be returning next year. That should please Flybe, cant have another airline operating at their airport can we now.

[adfly]

Nope, no we can't! :} Although I maintain if Vueling released the flights earlier then they would have done better, they missed out on the peak summer holiday booking period (Jan-Feb) as the route was released quite late and combined with a hopefully slightly less bad economy next year (better is a too ambitious term!) means their is a very small chance they may be back...

...which will probably disappear if/when Flybe launch SOU-BCN to compliment their new EXT route.

[adfly]

Mixed news at Flybe International (Sorry SOU!), I'll start with the bad; being said over in the Skybus thread that they will drop SOU and BRS to focus on their shorter routes and expand them to make up for the loss of the BIH service to the Isles of Scily.

On a potentially lighter note I passed by the airport today and am certain that I saw an Embraer (Presumably a E175) parked on the Eastern Apron (Stand 6), possibly a little further forward than normal although I do not know the norm. Can anyone shed any light on this, as it would be very beneficial for any Flybe expansion if the E175's are able to use the eastern apron! :)

[Rivet Joint]

Surely BCN is a no brainer for BE now? 90 would fit very well on the 195 3 times a week. Surely the market has been tested now? Going to hazard a guess that BE carry on ignoring this obvious route as they have done since 2004 though!

Newsflash BE, if you have a monopoly build on it, spreading yourself thin in a foolish attempt to put your fingers in every pie leads to all the bricks tumbling down :ugh:. Route/ fleet reductions and whoring yourself out to flag carriers anyone? :rolleyes:

[Cloud1]

Flybe cannot win, either they are getting stick for having a monopoly (Flybe International, really!!??) or being told to exploit it.

With respect Rivetjoint, Vueling have not yet confirmed they are not returning next year. Also, 90 passenger may have been an average but whats the yield? If BE have to sell every seat for £40 they are not going to want to do the route as it simply would not pay for itself let alone make any profit.

Flybe have not done badly out of Southampton, and likewise Southampton and its residents have not done badly out of Flybe. It remains one of the largest stations and I am sure those responsible for routes know far more of what they are doing than any of us on here.

Besides Flybe, other operators are frequent visitors in to Southampton albeit on a much smaller scale. They could if they wanted to create new routes but they do not - why? Because creating new routes in the current climate is risky and not all of the carriers have the financial support or brand awareness for them to succeed.

[cornishsimon]

IOS flights from SOU will be dropped to allow skybus to concentrate on taking up the slack when BIH stop uk passenger operations next month.


cs

[BOHEuropean]

adfly,

An Embraer 175 was indeed parked up on stand 6 yesterday, although I don't have any details of whether it was parked differently than when a Dash is on there.

[adfly]

Any reason for the E175 parked on the western apron? I thought that aircraft with tails taller than 9m were unable to park there due to runway clearances, I believe the E170/5 tail is around 9.6m. Or has somebody bent one of the rules/found an invisible solution?!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

CAA have been down to assess apparently. Must've given it a thumbs up.

[Aero Mad]

Why is BE1715 currently outbound to Bournemouth?

[Groundloop]

Two Flybe flight have stopped off at BOH today - the Alicante and the Malaga.

Could be a problem in lifting enough fuel of the runway at SOU with the payload and forecast weather today - hence dive into BOH for more fuel. Just a possibilty - it used to happen in the old BAE 146 days.

Just checked some weather charts - strong south westerly to southerly jetstream over Spain and France today hence stong headwinds on the way down - so it is likely to be a fuel load problem.

[Phalconphixer]

Two Flybe flight have stopped off at BOH today - the Alicante and the Malaga

Almost certainly fuel uplift vs runway length and pax load; Wx here in south and central Spain pretty ropey today, strong winds 8/8 cloud cover and rain. Better a quick stop at BOH to top off tanks and take advantage of the longer runway. Flybe almost certainly trying to avoid the adverse publicity of the Ryanair fuel shortage debacle.

Seem to recall many many moons ago when Princess Air use to operate a 146, on one such flight from SOU, half the passengers were offloaded before take off and coached to BOH. The aircraft took off from SOU with a partial fuel load, landed and topped off at BOH, re-embarked those pax previously offloaded then went about its business normally... if a little behind schedule.

Sorry a bit of thread drift...
Does anyone know what the normal Flybe diversions are for AGP? I would hazard a guess at GRX or SVQ.

As I live in Granada / Portsmouth about 20 minutes drive from GRX and / or SOU, for purely selfish reasons, I would much rather see Granada as the normal destination rather than AGP.
GRX is much more user friendly than AGP too, as is SOU over LGW.

Pax load factors (and most of the pax were from Hampshire) for Monarch on its LGW-GRX-LGW service were always of the order 90 -100% with an A320 until they were bullied out by a certain Irishman's blackmailing tactics with the local and regional authorities. His promises of increased revenues lasted for just three years until he pulled the plug... GRX is almost deserted these days!

pp

[adfly]

Flybe to launch SOU-BCN 3 weekly from 31st March 2013. Will operate Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday on an E195. Looks like we'll almost certainly be saying goodbye to Vueling then but at least the BCN route will be retained for next year.

[Serenity]

Shame Flybe will charge three times the price of Vueling!!

[davidjohnson6]

After the coming weekend, are the Clermont-Ferrand and Inverness routes gone for good, or will they come back next summer ?
Yes, I am capable of looking at the flybe website, but on the CFE route the website seems inconsistent as to whether it will or won't be flown

[Artic Monkey]

Serenity

Or maybe they're charging the going rate? Tickets costing £20 is not sustainable, never have been, never will be.

[adfly]

They may be released later on, they only usually operate in the peak summer months (May-September) so that could be why, or they are under review.

[adfly]

Summer looks fairly quiet so far, just 4 airlines guaranteed and overall reductions from our largest tenant.

Aurigny:

No real changes here to the ACI route, same as last Summer ~3 daily and 4 daily plus loads of extra weekend flights (up to 12!) in the peak months.

Blue Islands:

Again, no real changes JER and GCI stay at around 3 daily each with some of the weekend and peak flights being operated by ATR's.

Eastern:

Identical to S12 - ABZ 11 weekly and BRU 6 weekly.

Flybe:

New Routes:

BCN: 3 weekly E195
NTE: Daily Q400 (Cont. from winter)

Dropped Routes:

FRA: 6 weekly Q400
INV: 1 weekly Q400
TUF: 2 weekly Q400

Reductions:

AVN - 1 weekly (Down from 4 in S12)
CFE - 1 weekly (Down from 3 in S12)
BZR - 2 weekly (Down from 3 in S12)
NCE - 3 weekly (Down from 4 in S12)
RNS - 5 weekly (Down from 6 in S12)
DUB - 18 weekly (Down from 20 in S12)
MAN - Showing as all Q400 (Some flights were E195 in S12)
AMS - Fri morning E195 flight downgraded (all Q400 for S13)

Increases:

GLA - GLA based flights changed/upgraded to E195 (from E175 in S12)
EDI - Almost all E195/E175 (vs E195/Q400 in S12)

Skybus:

Said to be dropping the 3-6 weekly IOS flights next Summer although some are in the SOU timetable at the moment but this could easily be a mistake.

Thomas Cook:

'New Route'

VRN - 1 weekly Flybe Q400 (Selling seats and holidays on the Flybe flight)

PMI, MAH and IBZ all return as they were last summer operated by a chartered Flybe E195.

Thomson:

'New (Returning) Route'

PMI - 2 weekly Flybe E195 (Selling seats and holidays on scheduled Flybe flights)

Vueling:

Will not return next year - 'replaced' by Flybe on BCN route.

[options770]

I understand that Eastern are cancelling the Southampton to Brussels route on 11 November so your list for next summer is wrong. I have been flying the route for over 3 years now, firstly with Flybe then Eastern, looks like I will have to find another way again.:*

[Wellington Bomber]

I think eastern tried to make it double daily offering a day return trip but the Belgies would not give slot times to fit,

[adfly]

That's a shame, although the timings weren't particularly business friendly a better timed double daily flight could have done far better. I wonder if SN would consider SOU-BRU now on one of their leased BE Q400's @ 6 or 12 flights per week, ideally timed nicely for long haul connections if its the former. Also been mentioned via the airports social networking pages that they are interested in re-starting the Cork route, I would imagine with EI Regional if it were to happen.

[adfly]

Very sad to hear it closing down (500 jobs lost) but a pretty good option if the airport were wanting to expand runway wise... I would imagine such an expansion would help introduce some new jobs to replace those lost too!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Isn't the Ford factory on the other side of the M27?!

[Buster the Bear]

If you were to bury the M27 and re-align the runway it might offer a slightly longer runway, but the cost and objections would massive.

[adfly]

I perhaps should have mentioned a bridge would be needed too! But assuming it can be done so for a not too excessive cost then it could be an option for extending the runway by ~200m and also increasing the RESA's a little too.

[Rivet Joint]

Burying the M27 would make the most sense seeing as a busy motorway at the end of a runway is an accident waiting to happen. Would be costly but as shown by crossrail etc it can be done.

If the runway ever was expanded though they would most likely expand the other end into the old railway works. It’s a shame BAA don't spend a bit more money at SOU, with a longer runway they could wipe out their nearest competitor Hurn. More importantly though they need to build some bigger stands for the erj175's!

[stewyb]

I would suggest the cheapest and most likely option would be for BAA to purchase the Ford site and then relocate the businesses from the airport on to there ie. Royal Mail, thus freeing up a large area of pan space, something that SOU is sadly lacking at present. Surely this is a higher priority than runway extension!!

[Phalconphixer]

rivet joint... as a busy motorway at the end of a runway is an accident waiting to happen.

err... it already happened...
Photo of Cessna 550*Citation II G-JETB - Aviation Safety Network (http://aviation-safety.net/photos/displayphoto.php?id=19930526-0&vnr=1&kind=C)
and
Air Accidents Investigation: 5/1994 G-JETB (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/sites/aaib/publications/formal_reports/5_1994_g_jetb.cfm)

stewyb... Surely this is a higher priority than runway extension!!

Following on from Ryanair's recent 'fuel debacle' it has been noted that when Southern European weather is questionable, Flybe's SOU-AGP and SOU-ALC flights have been seen to 'stop off' en-route at BOH to uplift extra fuel; fuel that they could not have uplifted at SOU because of the limitation of runway length.
Fuel load, when combined with pax load and runway length have always been a limiting factor at SOU. By tunneling the M27 the current alignment of RW 02/20 might gain an extra 1500 feet before trampling heavily on neighbouring areas. In reality extensions are needed at both ends... but Eastleigh Council and the people of Eastleigh might just have a few very justifiable objections... especially when there is a perfectly adequate runway on a far more acceptable compass heading just 15 nm away...

As stewyb suggests, with the closure of the Ford plant, an opportunity exists to relocate all non-aviation related businesses, not just the Royal Mail, to the south side of the M27.

BOH needs airline business badly but the support infrastructure like public transport is crap; SOU has difficulty coping at peak times because of runway capacity and the lack of a taxiway necessitating constant backtracking, but the support infrastructure by road and rail is brilliant.... Surely the time has come for these two airports to actually cooperate rather than compete...

Just a thought...!

pp

[pottwiddler]

Surely the time has come for these two airports to actually cooperate rather than compete...

Just a thought...!Not a chance! LOL

However, how much would it cost to improve BOH's ground transport links versus SOU's costs to improve it's aerodrome characteristics? Throw in what you'll get for sale of the then redundant land (Gravel pit for BOH, prime industrial use for SOU with good communications) .

Just a thought!

[Rivet Joint]

Phalconfixer: - That was indeed the incident I was eluding too. I think this incident in itself provides enough of a reason for a runway extension even just for safety reasons.

I think people need to stop getting carried away with the Ford plant idea though. Nimbys won't even concede the LHR needs more runway so there is no chance such a construction would take place. Be far easier to just expand into the barely used railway works to the north which has been an option for years yet still no action! The Ford's site is likely to be reserved for manufacturing use but when they realise that this country doesn't do that any more it will be turned into housing with maybe 10% of the land retaining a manufacturing use.

Stewyb: - Your absolutely right. BE are investing in an aircraft that has too high a tail to be parked on nearly all the stands lining the runway and yet still no action from the clowns at BAA? Guess they have invested in chewing gum bins in the terminal though :rolleyes:. The bottom line is a small piece of tarmac that would barely cost anything could solve the backtracking issue and create the stands to the north east.

Phalconfixer: - As Pottwiddler said, no chance. I don't want to get Hurn enthusiasts excited but there is no big desire from people to fly from there and certainly no one wants to fly there. The Government/ Local authority are not going to portion a large part of their infrastructure budget to provide better road links for an airport that is just not needed. 50mil was just spent on a new terminal and no joy! SOU on the other hand just needs it own owner to reach into its deep pockets and lay a bit of tarmac!

It really is so hugely frustrating, look at Southend, similar transport links to SOU and EZY move in like a flash. I am fairly sure that if SOU had enough stands to support a couple of based A319's then EZY would move in. Anyone agree?

[adfly]

Afraid not, pretty sure its not costing EZY much to operate from SEN at the moment and any sort of major discount would no doubt not go down well with Flybe. While SOU has a good catchment its not a patch on East London/Southend/Essex.

Also re the E175's the CAA have been down recently (thanks LSM for clarifying this!) and gave approval for them to use the stands perpendicular to the runway (6-14) and they have been seen parked on them a couple of times already so that may no longer be an issue.

I agree the idea of moving the Royal Mail Depot across the M27 would help free up space for 5(?) stands the same size as 2-5 are currently (can take up to E190/5, 733/4/5,) or they could have 4 73G/A32X width stands instead which would be more attractive to charters and locos. The only issue I see is with convincing Royal Mail to move a fairly major centre and all of the costs and hassles associated with doing so.

The extended taxiway to the runway (i.e perpendicular from around where stands 13/14 are to the runway) is an obvious way to free up some of the runway/taxiway constrains and should also reduce the number of late flights during busy times (which is surprisingly high).

A runway extension will also benefit safety and an extra ~200m tarmac will do more to improve the range of places the current aircraft could reach (Canaries, Greece, Turkey, Tunisia, Malta) rather than fill the airport with wide-body's which should ensure it does not have too much of a negative impact on the local area. However the NIMBY opposition, noise concerns and Eco-mentalist groups would be a noticeable hurdle which would have to be overcome.

Finally some current news:

We've lost an E195 to BHD (Just 1 for the winter!).
Nantes has also now started.

[TCAS FAN]

Agree with the points made by Adfly and Rivet Joint, extension of the runway southwards is a complete non starter. Apart from the cost of a bridge over the M27 the motorway surface from JCT 5 eastwards would need re-profiling to provide the standard 4.8 clearance for high sided vehicles. This is not possible.

Quite apart from this road issue, significant southward extension of 20 take-off distances is not possible due to multiple trees and the hill which penetrate obstacle protection surfaces. I understand that a recent survey has thrown up additional trees (little b***ers keep growing) which have resulted in additional take-off weight restrictions (around a tonne less) for the E195/E170, which I believe was a contributory factor requiring recent ALC/AGP flights routing via Bournemouth.

North is the only way to go, but again obstacles in the 20 approach area (rail yard, sheds and houses in Campbell Road) prevent extension of the current very short landing distance on 20. This again, especially with a wet runway, is performance limiting. Years back having killed off Air Europa B737-800 operations, following multiple diversions when the runway was wet.

If SOU is to prosper it needs another low cost carrier with A319/A320, something that is not going to happen until a usuable runway (both ends) in the order of 1800-1900 metres is available, and there is somewhere to park them. Unfortunately BAA's owners do not appear committed to any such investment, content to make a small annual profit and maybe wait for the next buidling boom before declaring the business no longer viable and selling off the site for non aviation development.

[Rivet Joint]

Another classic day at Sou today, all arrivals on time (if not early) yet the standard 10 min delay (if not more) on ALL departures. Surely the airlines, chief of all BE, have raised this issue with the management? As discussed before it clearly arises out of the frankly embarrassing practice of aircraft having to backtrack the runway. Seriously, what is their issue with laying a minute piece of tarmac from the last stand up to the end of the runway!? Surely this small part of their masterplan is worth bankrolling to protect the commodity that their main customer base craves: TIME! The latest news story on their website is about BE implementing their summer time table, we are now in December. Enough said :ugh:.

[RNWY03]

todays departure delays may not have been helped by last nights incident when an Eastern J41 was unable, on landing, to vacate the runway for ??? reasons ( anyone know why?) resulting in the last 5 Flybe flights of the day being diverted elsewhere and this morning's early Aberdeen Eastern departure cancelled. I believe this is the second Eastern J41 incident this year at SOU that has resulted in the airports temporary closure! Who pays the diversions bill?

[Rivet Joint]

Good point about the diversions. Although with the basic ILS (level 1?) diversions are common practice. Plus it is every day that departures leave late. There really is no excuse for the lack of investment, Boh have invested circa 50mil and have 1 plane based half a year. Seriously if BE pack their bags and move up the road to Boh then Sou only have themselves to blame. I cannot stomach another news story on chewing gum bins or the airports fire crew pretending to do some work.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

RJ, were they actually late, as in pushed back late, or got airborne ten minutes after pushback?

[destinationsky]

Rivet joint.... How much do you think it would cost to lay a taxiway extension? Do you work in the aviation/airport industry??

[Rivet Joint]

LSM, obviously I cannot say for absolute certain that the back tracking is exactly the reason but even with the aviation business being as it is, nearly every day I care to look Sou's departure board is a complete contrast to the arrivals board. I use the airport once a month and often spend a lot of time at peak hours sitting in the aircraft whilst on stand. I'm sorry but if you really think about it, every aircraft doubling back throughout the day is going to take its toll.

DS, I do not work in either the construction or airport industry but the clients I work for are from both industries. That is by the by, I do not profess to be an expert but seeing as Sou is billed as a business orientated airport and makes an effort with security etc it seems only right that they realise they have an airside that needs some investment with time being the key beneficiary.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

RJ, yes it is a pain, but it only really has an effect if you've got arrivals too. There's quite often a large quiet time where you can taxi straight out without any delay and then the backtracking makes no difference.

You probably know that departure time is based on off blocks so even if you have to wait twenty minutes to line up and you pushed on time then you're still on time.

[adfly]

One of the (or the) lapland flight(s) went out this morning, on a Thomas Cook 752! - I assume its been this for the last few years? It dwarfs the Embraer next to it in the image below! Wonder if we would ever see them on TCX's summer routes, its not hard to see PMI filling them up, I can also see IBZ filling one at least in the peak months. Such an operation would also free up a few weekend flights giving Flybe some space to expand/add to its leisure routes in the Summer.

Link to the image Canterbury Travel?s Lapland flight took off this morning with... on Twitpic (http://twitpic.com/bnuckj)

[Rivet Joint]

Would be nice but I guess TC and BE both have a win win situation sharing flights. Less financial risk for TC and BE get to fill some empty seats.

[adfly]

Some small but good news from our largest resident - it looks as though the sun routes are selling rather well as Flybe have quietly increased the frequencies of a few!

Alicante - 5 weekly from May to start of October (Was 4 weekly all summer).
Palma - 4 weekly from end of May to end of September (Was 3 weekly all summer, not including the extra flight for Thomas Cook so 5 weekly overall).
Verona - 2 weekly with the extra flight on an E195.

I would imagine the reason for the latter 2 routes being increased is due to Thomson selling seats/holidays of two of the existing PMI flights and Thomas Cook doing the same for Verona. However it is good to see that these routes are presumably selling well and hopefully this year will be a little busier than last!

Edit: The original Saturday Verona flight looks full or very close to it and pretty expensive for most of the peak summer, explaining the extra flight! I wonder if this will encourage Flybe into looking at additional Italian routes from SOU, I would have thought there would be a fairly strong market for 2-4 flights per week to the more popular areas like Rome, Milan, Venice, Naples, Pisa etc.

[Wycombe]

Milan (Bergamo) was done some years back (early 2000's) on the Q400.

As far as I can tell, the only direct routes that BE aren't operating out of SOU this year that they did in 2012 are IOM and INV.

[adfly]

Also Frankfurt and Tours (which didn't even last a season!).

[vectisman]

Hopefully as demand stabilises and maybe grows Flybe will also expand its Southampton routes with the enthusiasm it showed in the early days.

V.

[adfly]

Quick update -

Flybe financial situation and changes:

As found from these two articles Air routes survive axe (From Daily Echo) (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/district/southampton/10182809.Air_routes_survive_axe/)

Flybe axes jobs at Southamption airport (From Daily Echo) (http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10178716.Flybe_axes_jobs_at_Southamption_airport/)

To put them briefly <20 jobs will go for Flybe at Southampton which, although is never to be considered a good thing it is fortunately for the moment at least, a fairly small number. Flybe have also said that no routes from SOU will be cut but frequency reductions 'have not been ruled out'.

Channel Island flights:

Flybe are to replace 1 GCI based Q400 with a new E175. Initially it will operate the LGW route however they have said if that works out then they will also introduce the E175 on the Southampton route later on.

Blue Islands will use a Denim Air Fokker 50 for all JER-SOU for a couple of weeks in March to gauge the viability of using a larger aircraft on the route in the future (Presumably one of their own ATR 42's).

[Wycombe]

Contrary to my earlier post (347) it looks like IOM has now made a re-appearance in the BE schedule for S13, operating 3 times a week from the beginning of May to mid-October.

[adfly]

Aurigny - No real change from last year, ACI operates 21 weekly and increases significantly for July/August/September.

Blue Islands - No changes to frequency of JER/GCI although the former should see more ATR's than it has previously, and may become an all ATR route is the 2 week trial with the leased Fokker 50 in March is successful.

Eastern - ABZ operating exactly the same as last summer, 11 weekly J41 weekdays and an S20 Sunday.

Dropped Routes:

Brussles - 6 weekly J41/S20

Flybe - Quite a few changes for S13, a mixture of good and bad as ever!

New/Returning Routes -

Barcelona - 3 weekly E195
Nantes - Daily Q400 (cont. from Winter)
Isle of Man - 3 weekly Q400

Dropped Routes -

Tours - 2 weekly Q400 (Didn't even last the whole of one summer!)
Frankfurt - 6 weekly Q400
Inverness - 1 weekly Q400

Changed frequency's/equipment -

Glasgow - Down to 26 weekly overall for the summer with no early am departure from SOU. Roughly 4 Daily weekday's and 3 weekends. Is however operated by a mix of E195/Q400 vs E175/Q400 last year.

Edinburgh - Reduced to 30 weekly for the summer with the Tue, Weds and Thurs early SOU flights dropped in favour of increasing some of the leisure routes. Around 4/5 daily weekdays and 3/4 daily weekends. Change in seats reduced somewhat by the fact that the route is now operated almost entirely by E195's.

Amsterdam - Middle flight now shown as operating on an E195 rather than a Q400.

Alicante - Increases from 4 to 7 weekly during the peak season, and to 5 for the rest of the summer.

Faro - Increases from 3 to 6 weekly with 2 flights of a Saturday.

Malaga - Increases from 4 to 7 weekly in the peak period.

Nice - Increases from 3 to 5 weekly for the peak period.

Palma - Increases from 3 to 6 weekly during the peak season, and to 4 for the rest of the summer.

Verona - Increases from 1 to 2 weekly for the whole season.

Avignon - Reduced from 4 to just 1 weekly flight for this summer!

Clermont-Ferrand - Reduced from 3 to 1 weekly flight.

Beziers - Reduced from 3 to 2 weekly.

Dublin - Reduced from 20 to 19 weekly.

Manchester - All Q400 except for 1 E175 on a Sunday, last year there was an E195 weekday flight and more on the E175.

Rennes - Reduced from 6 to 5 weekly (presumably as a result of the new Nantes flights).

Skybus -

Dropped Routes -

Isles of Scilly - 3-6 weekly DHT - Dropping IOS-SOU/BRS routes to focus on NQY to make up for the loss of the Helicopter link.

Thomas Cook - Palma, Mahon and Ibiza all returning exactly the same as last year.

New Routes -

Verona - 2 weekly Flybe E195/Q400 (Selling seats/Holidays on the scheduled flights)

Thomson -

New Routes -

Palma - 2 weekly Flybe E195 (Selling packages using Flybe's scheduled flights)

Vueling - Not returning for the summer.

Dropped Routes -

Barcelona - 3 weekly A319 (Effectively 'replaced' by the new Flybe service.)

EDIT: Post updated 18/03/2013 to include new sun route increases.

[Wycombe]

Received this in a email from Flybe today:

Between 8th July and 22nd September 2013 flights to Alicante will operate daily whilst flights to Faro will operate on Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri, Sat including an increase from 1 to 2 flights on Saturdays. Daily flights to Malaga will be available with the addition of Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays whilst flights to Nice will operate Mon, Tues, Thurs, Fri, Sun. Flights to Palma Mallorca will be available on Mon, Tues, Wed, Thurs, Fri, Sun.



I don't remember ALC or AGP ever being daily before, or there being twice daily rotations to any of these destinations.

[adfly]

That's quite an increase! Clearly picking a fight with FR up the road, I believe a few years ago Alicante was 6 weekly and Malaga was 5, they may have been daily at some point before then when they were on the smaller 146's. Hopefully if the fares aren't too much more than the competition then these higher frequency's will make the routes more appealing to travellers who would otherwise travel to the London.

EDIT: S13 summary post updated to include these new increases.

[Keyvon]

A new winter ski flight to Grenoble has been put on sale by Flybe, operated on Saturdays from the end of December 2013 until through the end of February 2014.

I believe this is on behalf of Inghams.

[Serenity]

Grenoble flt used to run a couple of years ago.
Was then binned. See how long this one lasts!!

[MARKEYD]

Looks like Flybe are having a little tinker about with the Barcelona route this summer

The route now fully starts in May and finishes in September with only 2 services a week operating Thursday and Saturday ( Tuesday now dropped ? )

[adfly]

A brief dummy booking and look at the flybe schedules shows no changes, still Tues, Thurs, Sun starting 31st March, where did you find this info MARKEYD?

[MARKEYD]

If you use the 21 day calendar for the booking it shows no flights on a Tuesday and the main booking mode shows " Full " for Tuesday through out the season

There are 3 flights to Barcelona at the start of April , guessing for Easter period then nothing until the start of June

Actually just noticed on web site as confirmed 2 a week now

[scily isle express]

Eastern checking out of Southampton , again!

Whats that now, 4 times in as many years? What gives?

[jamestkirk]

SOU always a non-starter really. I thinks its 6 times in six years.

New management seem to have a much better grasp of what bases/routes should be operating.

It's just a bit sh>tty for the crews involved.

[RNWY03]

An opportunity for BMI perhaps......?

[Cloud1]

What were the loads like on the ABZ? If they were good on T3 fares then Flybe will probably end up doing the route. You know how it is in Southampton ;)

[FRatSTN]

Eastern Airways are still operating SOU-ABZ. Flights are availabe for a long time, even into next year I think.

However they appear to be pulling out of Bristol on 19th April. No doubt the BMI Regional move onto the route has something to do with that!

[canberra97]

It would be good for SOU if BMI did commence flights from the airport to give some sort of competition to Flybe and to restart the former Flybe
routes to Brussels and Frankfurt as well as adding destinations that they currently offer from other UK airports to the likes of Copenhagen, Gothenburg, Hamburg, Lyon, Milan, Munich, Zurich as well as an Aberdeen route probably to start off with but I know the stands are in short supply at SOU but if BMI timed there flights I am sure they could fit in a sizeable operation from the airport.

[Wellington Bomber]

Eastern are still doing the Aberdeen just in reverse, i.e a/c based in Aberdeen. Brussels will be a problem for anyone because of slots available in Brussels at the right time. Flybe F**** the operations of a lot of airlines who operated there about about 6 years ago.

[vectisman]

Once again I am reading on several threads destination wish lists from well meaning contributors. However economic reality means these lists will continue to be that, a wish! If airlines thought there was money to be made the routes would be flown. Yield is the key to success and to achieve that you need enough people wanting to fly from A to B at a viable price.


V.

[vectisman]

Wellington Bomber. Don't quite understand your comments re Flybe and Brussels. Once again if there was money to be made on the route it would have continued.

V.

[Wellington Bomber]

vectisman

Eastern 7 years ago operated 3 daily southampton - Brussels flights. The first departed at about 0700am the next 2 1400 and 1730ish. This regular service meant that business people which Eastern attract rather than cheap tourists could do a days work and return the same day, avoiding expensive hotel stays.

This worked until Flybe began domestic domination by jumping on existing routes by other carriers and swamped the routes with oversize aircraft and services to get the competitor off the route at any cost, which has proved to be putting nails in their own coffin but thats another story.

Once the competitor was gone they then reduced the number of services back down to one daily at inconvenient times which the business man/woman did not like any they dissapeared to London and would also include expensive overnight Brussels accommodation if they flew from Southampton. The passengers left in droves and eventually Flybe pulled off the route. Eastern then try to resurrect the route but the only slot times available were the crappy mid morning/early afternoon which nobody wanted. Hence pull of route which was opearating quite nicely

I hope this explains thing clearly

[vectisman]

Thank you Wellington Bomber for your very clear response.
However I would say that if Eastern were doing so well and were supported by the business types why was the service withdrawn? They managed to hold their own against Flybe on the Newcastle-Aberdeen route from which Flybe did withdraw.


V.

[options770]

Eastern's problems were the timing of the slot which was inconvenient and their pricing. Arriving in Brussels about 1330 and leaving at 1400 meant that all business trips had to include a night stop. They also charged about twice the price of Flybe and that was for a discounted non-flexible seat. The full price flexible ticket was ridiculous and with businesses tightening belts very few were willing to pay for it.

In my opinion they totally ignored the tourist market which would have filled the aircraft on Friday and Sunday/Monday if the prices had been attractive, their marketing was poor. It was cheaper to take a taxi to Heathrow and fly with BA than it was to use Eastern.

I watched the passenger numbers dwindle over the last 4 years as firstly the Flybe slot times became unattractive then the Eastern price rises put them out of the market. When I first started on the route we would have 60 passengers on Flybe, but that reduced to about 20 when they dropped the route. The numbers who took up with Eastern stared at about 15 but that had dropped to 5 when they closed the route.

I must admit that I was willing to pay for the convenience compared to my current 7 hour commute by Eurostar.

[BAladdy]

Eastern Airways are still operating SOU-ABZ. Flights are availabe for a long time, even into next year I think.

However they appear to be pulling out of Bristol on 19th April. No doubt the BMI Regional move onto the route has something to do with that!

Notice that the ABZ-SOU service is dropping to 6 x weekly on the J41 also from 19th April. From the 19th April the weekday southbound flight will depart ABZ 11:50 and arrive SOU 13:50 and the northbound will depart 14:10 arriving ABZ 16:05. The cutting of frequency and the midday/early afternoon schedule will be less appealing to anyone able to afford T3's fares. The flights may be still available to book online for now.......

[RNWY03]

...But Eastern appear to be keeping the Sunday evening departure to ABZ on the Saab 2000 albeit via MME. So its going to be just a single weekday return ABZ/SOU/ABZ direct flight on the J41's..is there room here for another carrier to come in with a more moderate pricing policy that might also appeal to the leisure traveller or is ABZ really only for the business traveller?

[adfly]

I hope BMI Regional can spare an aircraft to operate the route, they would be a fairly ideal compromise between being business friendly but also not too expensive for leisure travellers assuming they operated something like a 12 weekly schedule (Early morning/Late evening on weekdays + early Sat and late Sun flights). Of course, this is assuming Flybe stay away from it, as they know it hasn't worked from past experience.

[Heathrow Harry]

"Eastern appear to be keeping the Sunday evening departure to ABZ"

there's a big market for people who work in Aberdeen but base themselves somewhere (ANYWERE) civilised - Friday afternoon/evening ABZ is packed with people desperate to get home and they come back late Sunday or first thing Monday

[Phileas Fogg]

is ABZ really only for the business traveller

Have you actually occupied any time in ABZ???

Want a greasy Chinky or a deep fried Mars Bar then ABZ is your place :)

[Richard Taylor]

I'm glad I don't live in Aberdeen - sounds like the kind of hellhole nobody should be going to or living in... ;)

[canberra97]

Nice one Richard I had a chuckle at that :-)

Obviously no real offence to those from Aberdeen though!

But on a different note during the summer there must be a certain amount of demand from Aberdeen to Southampton, working in the cruise industry in Southampton I have come across a considerable amount of passengers coming from the Aberdeen area and many fly from Edinburgh due to the cost of the Eastern flights or there schedules on ABZ to SOU.

I personally would love BMI Regional to consider taking up the ABZ to SOU route along with possible further expansion from Southampton in particular to Brussels and Frankfurt and a few others.

Although I have mentioned this before I seriously think that if BMI Regional enter the SOU market it would give them a good business opportunity plus a southern gateway and SOU needs the prime European city business links so lacking at the moment with only Paris presently served albeit Orly.

[insuindi]

Flybe pulls the plug on SOU-DUS, eff 13MAY.

[Heathrow Harry]

Richard

if you are lucky we'll have a whip-round and buy you a bus ticket south...........

I can remember a copy of the P&J with the headline

"Aberdeen bakes in 68F heatwave..."

[Richard Taylor]

What you on about HH - that IS warm... :p

[Phileas Fogg]

For the few weeks I occupied in ABZ, if I recall correctly, it started snowing during September ... What with that and the greasy and deep-fried take-aways I was off back to Sasnak country as fast as the hire car Nissan Micra could carry me :)

[canberra97]

Taylor and Fogg your child like nonsense over Aberdeen is not really needed is it especially as neither of you have commented on what is actually real news the fact that Flybe have pulled DUS.

[Aero Mad]

canberra97, 'twas only a few posts ago you commented:

Nice one Richard I had a chuckle at that :-)

Now you say:

Taylor and Fogg your child like nonsense over Aberdeen is not really needed

Pots? Kettles? Make your mind up or calm down, dear. Either way, cut the discipline when you're just as guilty as they are :oh:

Now back to thread. In any case, I do like a good deep-fried Mars bar.

[Richard Taylor]

Don't worry Canberra, I saw the tongue in cheek! :D

How long did Flybe have the DUS route, and how had it been performing? Presumably not well enough since it's being pulled, but I cannot fathom airline decisions these days!

[North West]

but I cannot fathom airline decisions these days!

Route achieves company profitability targets = continue / grow
Route fails to achieve company profitability targets = reduce capacity / stop

Not much more to it than that.

[Rivet Joint]

North West: either your name alludes to something else but either way you do not seem to be in the position to pass comment.

The German routes were doing fine, many squadies use them to get between the army bases in each country and lets not forget Southampton is the cruise capital of Northern Europe. Germans are widely known to be the biggest users of cruises and a lot of the crews are German.

The routes are merely being cut because BE are in the **** and these are easy candidates for the necessary cuts.

[adfly]

Sadly I think North West summed it up well, it doesn't matter what a place haves which may help/hinder a certain route, if it doesn't do well enough it will be cut or reduced, especially is this current economic climate.

[insuindi]

The DUS route had less than 50% load in the end, and considerably fewer Pax than HAJ, which is served with the same frequency. Having said that, HAJ-SOU has lost Pax due to the threefold capacity increase on LHR-HAJ by BA last autumn (if that effect doesn't increase further the route appears sustainable, however)

[MARKEYD]

Thomson Holidays have released there summer 2014 today and Southampton will see Volotea 717 aircraft operating the weekly Palma service instead of Flybe

At the moment Thomas Cook have not put anything on sale yet but early days

[adfly]

Good to see Thomson will use their own flights next year!

Also thought this may be worth mentioning, but passing the airport quite early this morning (just after 8am) I noticed the east stands were very busy, to the point where there was an Embraer being serviced at the end of the taxiway on the apron behind stands 1/2! There was also an Aurigny ATR72 there (anyone have any idea why?) amongst a more usual Blue Islands Jetstream + 3x Embraer 195's (In addition to the interestingly parked one). I would guess the ATR and extra Embraer could be LGW diversions from GCI?

[BOHEuropean]

Aurigny ATR, Blue Islands ATR & Jetstream, Flybe Q400 & E175 all diverted in last nice due to fog in the channel islands. The three E195s are based. Pretty full last night indeed!

[separation]

Is that all that was going on?

I noticed about 16:15 there was 2 195's holding over SOU, that seemed odd as I have never noticed any holding here apart from when it snowed a few years ago.

I checked on the web when I got home, couldnt find much but did find some referance to a damaged plane on the runway but couldnt find any other info.

Anyone know anything about that?

[zantopst]

cirrus sr22 G-OOEX had a puncture that closed the runway for an hour or 2. The 3 EMB195's and a Be400 diverted to Hurn.

Steve

[adfly]

It looks as though Innsbruck will return for W13 operated by Austrian on Saturdays from 21/12/13 to 29/03/14 for Inghams. Good to see some of the ski routes returning (GNB, INN) as well as those being increased (CMF, GVA), hopefully the slow decline of passenger numbers in general will start to take a positive turn sometime soon.

[MARKEYD]

Any news if Thomas Cook plan to operate a series of charters for 2014 ?

At the moment its just Thomson using Volate 717 next summer to Palma but i would imagine Thomas Cook would consider something again with a tie up with Flybe even ?

[adfly]

I would imagine TCX will release their S14 plans soon, I'd expect a similar operation to this year maybe with some flights on their own A320's/757's if they have space to do so.

Also some quick updates for Flybe:

Düsseldorf is dropped from 13th May (6 weekly Q400)

The gap seems to be filled for the summer by:

Dublin increasing from 19-23 weekly from June-October (Extra Mon, Weds, Fri, Sun flights)

Avignon increasing from 1-3 weekly from end of July-September (Extra Tue, Thur flights)

There are a few other minor changes too but nothing really worth mentioning.

Also there has been a fairly tall tailed grey aircraft parked just beyond the hangers over the last couple of days. Does anyone know what it is and why it was there?

[Severn]

The large white/grey aircraft you are talking about is an Airbus A318-112(CJ) Elite (LX-GJC) of Global Jet Luxembourg. It has been there since the middle of the week and departs on Sunday. It has chosen to park here because Southampton is just a little cheaper to park an A318 than LHR!!
You may have noticed it has been reversed into stands 13/14, thats because the tail is too tall if parked nose-in as normal and would be over the height restriction for the stands 6-13 and they don't want it taking up stands 1-5 for the period it is in SOU.

[Rivet Joint]

Any idea on where it came in from and where it's going?

[Severn]

ZRH-LHR
It then positioned to SOU to park up (like i said, much cheaper than parking at LHR)!
Today it's positioning back to LHR and then operating
LHR-ZRH

[Rivet Joint]

Thanks James, and there was me thinking it was no expense spared for these people!

[Bournemouth Air]

Would have thought this would have been easier to park the Airbus at Bournemouth

[Rivet Joint]

Bournemouth air: Sorry I'm going to take the bait, bore of you troll :rolleyes:

[adfly]

I think that's a fair comment from Bournemouth Air - There is a lot more space at BOH, and usually plenty of free stands. Maybe SOU offered a better deal for them (It flew to LHR and HAH also own SOU) or there could be other reasons for it...

[adfly]

It looks as though from the report written by Flybe that SOU could benefit from their exit from LGW and future cost-cutting, it suggests there could be more year-round leisure flying with the E195's and also that they will look to target a number of key business routes served by LHR/LGW. It also says they will look to target volume over yields a little more which should bring in some less expensive fares!

On a more local scale I would say we could potentially see an extra daily rotation to BHD and NCL next summer when the LGW routes are dropped as they no longer have to worry about keeping enough passengers on the LGW routes, and for the point-point passenger SOU is a reasonable alternative, and the extra flexibility offered would make it more attractive to the passengers who usually head London-wards for their UK travels. IOM is another route which we may see an increase on and also GCI/JER although this would depend on how much overlap there is/was with the LGW routes.

Link to report: http://www.flybe.com/corporate/investors/presentations/Flybe-Fit-to-Compete-May-2013.pdf

[MARKEYD]

Are Thomas Cook intending to operate any charter flights next year from SOU i know for the past few years they have charted FLYBE to operate to PMI , MAH and IBZ but nothing as such for next summer , normally they would have been on sale by now ?

edited 26 June

Talking to my Thomas Cook mate and they are finishing a final programme on 25 July to be published with any new UK airports to be added then

[adfly]

It seems Flybe have started to 'push' Southampton as an alternative to the London airports in some of the papers in fitting with what was said in their restructuring plan.

https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/355428677779070976/photo/1

[Fairdealfrank]

LONDON-SOUTHAMPTON AIRPORT

Guess it was inevitable!

[adfly]

I seems SOU will get a third new ski route for W13, Neilson are selling holidays to Andorra using a Flybe charter to Lleida–Alguaire every Sunday from 22nd December.

Although Jan-April have shown decreases in passenger numbers May/Jun have both seen increases (5/3.3%) and these should be accompanied with further increases from the more frequent sun routes in the next few months, plus the expanded Ski routes should mean we will see some increases over the winter. Overall I'd expect to see a small increase in annual passenger numbers over last year and a more extensive one for 2014 assuming nothing disastrous happens.

[Wycombe]

Indeed, and I guess Flybe will be pinning even more hopes on the SOU base once flights from LGW finish at the end of the W13/14 season.

In addition to those new ski routes, GVA is also shown as daily (excl.Sat) from 27/10. From December, flights are double-daily on Sat. and Sun.

[MARKEYD]

Thomas Cook have started to load there 2 nd edition brochures for Summer 2014 and Southampton has now appeared

Friday Palma 1705 2220 Flybe shared at moment with scheduled flight

Saturday Verona 1220 1800 Flybe

Its possible that Ibiza and Mahon may yet still be loaded , but given Flybe have added many extra flights this year to the Med it could be swapping the local market

[adfly]

Well if Thomas Cook do resort to selling seats on Flybe flights or even using another carrier it means 1 Embraer's on sat and 1/2 one Sun are now free, so there could be some room for some new routes or extra flights there.

Also worth noting Neilson are owned by Thomas Cook so the winter flights to Andorra are bookable through either website.

[TCAS FAN]

As this is a rumour network, anyone able to verify or deny that Eddie Stobbart is intending to buy the soon to be closed Ford Motor Company plant adjacent to SOU, and if so the strategy behind purchase?

[Rivet Joint]

On the subject of the Ford factory there have been quite a few BMW owned private jets in recently. Perhaps potential purchasers? Expand Mini production? Not sure why Stobart would want it. Plenty of land around Southampton to develop.

[pottwiddler]

Tcas Fan, One could only assume that Stobart would use it as a transport hub, they're into planes, trains and trucks, and they would have all three close by...good pre-emptive move if SOU came up for sale??? (I'm only speculating!)

Rivet Joint, Mini's are selling well abroad, expansion of the production would be good for BMW and those poor Ford workers to get their jobs back. Not onlt that but didn't the port export more cars than ever before? Would be an advantage to make the cars for export there.

[RNWY03]

The adjacent Ford factory officially ceases production end of this week and according to the local press it will take 8 months or so to de-commission the site although Ford are maintaining part of it for a vehicle refurbishment centre. Its probably too soon for firm plans about the future of the factory site but just to offer a little speculation......if the current Royal Mail depot on the airport side was moved to the Ford site it could, for example, make room for a new terminal. In the November 2006 airport Master Plan it was shown that by 2015 there would be a second apron and terminal on the Eastern side of the airfield. Since then there has been very little airport comment about any future plans but if anything is to happen in the next 2 years ( and here we are half way thorough 2013) then someone somewhere should be getting their slide rule out or does LHR holdings not see this as an opportunity. No idea where the Stobart rumour came from but would LHR Holdings sell off SOU?

[Nakata77]

I think I said this b4 but it's in LHR's interest to prevent serious growth at SOU

[zantopst]

HI, The BMW jets are regular visitors because of the Rolls Royce factory down the road at Chichester.

Steve

[Rivet Joint]

Zantopost thanks for the heads up. It would seem there could be potential though in them taking it on. Heard there was talk that the Oxford factory was flat out and that they were considering opening a factory in the Asia to supply demand for that region. Would rather they choose Southampton any day of the week.

Nakata77: You are speaking rubbish, one is the international hub of the country the other is a regional airport. Serve completely different markets. Just because LHR Holdings concentrate on their Jewel in the Crown (as anyone else would) doesn't mean they don't want Sou to grow. Put simply with the economy in its current state it would be madness to grow a regional airport. Granted they should loosen the purse strings a little on the airside front but maintaining what you have in times like this is smart. Take a look at BOH who invested millions in a new terminal when they have nothing more than a seasonal programme operating if you want an example.

[Hipennine]

Coincidence, or something to do with this from Motor Transport:

Southampton City Council is inviting local operators to run a sustainable distribution centre (SDC) and warehouse that will consolidate local deliveries. The aim is to cut lorry movements and congestion while boosting efficiencies.
The council has been awarded £225,000 from a central government local sustainable transport fund to fund the SDC, which will serve Southampton, Winchester, Eastleigh, Hedge End, Totton and the New Forest. The SDC will handle deliveries 24/7, grouping and delivering loads together as well as offering flexible and cheap storage.

[adfly]

It looks like Thomas Cook won't be using any of their own flights next year, also seems that Ibiza and Menorca have been dropped although Faro is new. They are selling seats/holidays on Flybe flights to Palma/Verona/Faro. Hopefully Flybe will utilise the extra capacity they now have at the weekend.

[davidjohnson6]

If Flybe use capacity for Thomas Cook at Southampton, does that mean that routes to leisure centric summer only cities in regional France (eg Clermont Ferrand) are candidates for being dropped ? (even if the timetable says they will restart in June 2014)

[OltonPete]

There is a bit of discussion on the BOH re Amsterdam but I can't find anything on this thread about flybe going four daily on Monday, Wednesday and Friday this winter? They are showing as all Q400's when I checked GDS.

I must admit I thought it was all week days but apparently not.

There seems to be two based 195's at times but not worked out what they do yet other than AGP and ALC on some days.

Pete

[Rivet Joint]

Good news and certainly with the figures increasing each month this route seems to be going from strength to strength. Stats for June stand at 9,200 which is a 1000 more than last June. I do hope BE change their strategy on getting rid of the q400.

[davidjohnson6]

Had a look at CAA stats - Bordeaux managed 392 pax over 4 Saturdays or 49 pax per flight in middle of summer. Perhaps yields were stunning or a candidate for being chopped ?

[Nakata77]

Can someone explain why SOU to Spain/Portugal routes grew by between 50 and 70% July'13 versus July'12?

[MARKEYD]

Flybe increased there services by adding an extra 12 flights a week from July to Sept

Flights to Palma , Alicante and Malaga are daily at the moment and Faro is a close behind with 6 flights a week at present

Obviously Flybe are really pushing the sale of these routes which at one point were being offered for less than £ 100 return not now though

I would also imagine this is the reason that Bournemouth saw a drop in this months passenger figures to the above destinations as Flybe go head to head with Ryanair , noticed as well they are going daily this winter to Geneva with Bournemouth operating 6 flights a week with Easy Jet

[Nakata77]

Thanks Markeyd. It's a bit bullish of them in their current weak competitive situation. It seems as though they are really seeing good volumes. How are their load factors? Malaga from southampton grew 51% but it didnt take away from Bournemouth which grew 13%. Faro from Southampton grew 76% but also grew at Bournemouth although only by 1%. Where are Flybe getting the passengers? West London?

Will be an interesting Summer next year when we see if Flybe will add more on top of this. They need to defend Southampton strategically.

[Rivet Joint]

Not great but also not a disaster. If its operated by the q400 which is more than likely then 49 out of 78 is like 62% full. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the q400 is such an economical piece of kit that the break even point is a lot lower than 62%. Even so lets be fair Sou has its fair share of other French routes to take up the slack if it is cancelled.

[pottwiddler]

Flybe are sticking their necks about a bit by adding capacity to their Spanish flights. They don't want to upset RYR at BOH. They must be pulling custom away from LGW/LHR rather than BOH, which is a good thing for Flybe/SOU and RYR at BOH.

[Wycombe]

Traffic in August up 11% YoY, and the calendar-year and rolling-year stats all now in positive territory:

http://mediacentre.heathrowairport.com/imagelibrary/downloadmedia.ashx?MediaDetailsID=1770&SizeId=-1

Interesting to note that ATM's in August were still down -3.6% YoY, which can only mean that Flybe are getting more bums on seats per flight.

[adfly]

From December Blue Islands will upgrade SOU-GCI to an ATR 72 with 66 seats, they are also adding a Saturday evening flight meaning the route will operate 19x weekly. They seem to be pushing the idea of using SOU as a way of getting to London when combined with the train. I'm quite surprised to see GCI route upgraded, I would've thought JER was the more popular of the two routes.

Also there are a couple of increases from the largest resident for next summer.

PMI goes from 6x per week to daily in the peak season.
AGP is now 5x weekly outside the peak months, it was 4 this year.
NCE increases to 5x weekly in the peak season, compared to 4 this year.
BCN increases from 2 to 3 weekly for the whole season.

[Richard Taylor]

Morning from the frozen north...I come in peace! ;)

Glasgow and Aberdeen airports may be sold off - The Scotsman (http://www.scotsman.com/business/glasgow-and-aberdeen-airports-may-be-sold-off-1-3171588)

Above story mentions the possibility of HAH selling off their non-LHR assets; therefore my local, SOU & GLA.

I say let it happen for all three, as long as any new potential buyer is interested in developing their shiny 'new' asset and not (as is all too frequent these days) a quick buck.

We'll see I guess.

[Rivet Joint]

BAA do seem to be reluctant to spend any money airside at SOU despite getting millions and millions from their other airport sale offs.

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet joint
They also do not apparently want to spend any money on updating their antiquated instrument approach procedures. This is 21st century, why no GNSS procedures to replace the off-set NDB & VOR procedures?

And a northern two-way to resolve the horrific 20 backtracking problem and consequential departure delays?

With all the cost cutting at Fly-Be, would have thought that they would have been in banging the table to get something done.

[Musket90]

BAA no longer exist. It's been renamed Heathrow Airport Ltd

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: They are finally doing something about this but only for the arrivals from the south which is rarely used. They are proposing a GPS based system which is apparently the future solution although sounds like the cheap option to me.

The backtracking concept is quite astounding. I mean you wouldn't have this situation in a bus station let alone an airport runway. Seeing as SOU make such a fuss of being time conscious you think they would tackle this as a matter of urgency. I mean its only a bit of extra tarmac :ugh:. A few lightbulbs have been changed airside recently though so that's the airside budget blown for the next few years :rolleyes:.

Musket90: Quite, different guise same company though.

[pottwiddler]

The problem with the extending the taxiway is the fact that it would have to be parallel to the runway (safeguarding issues). The problem with that is that Mitchell Way turns in towards the runway too. Therefore you have to straighten that out, and to do that do SOU own the land next to the railway station, would moving the road affect the railway track etc. You'd have to move the Glidepath to the other side...etc.. it all mounts up to a big job and a big cost.

Now could that money be better spent elsewhere? Somewhere, where you a guaranteed a decent return on your investment. To shareholders of companies need to know that the CEO/board is getting a good ROI, which in turn keep the share price up everyone happy. Except those on the ground who have to back track.

[Groundloop]

A taxiway does not have to be parallel with the runway - it is most certainly NOT parallel at BOH for instance.

There is room to extend the taxiway to the 20 end without having to realign roads, etc. The "queuing" area at the 27 end at London City has a centreline only 85m off the runway centreline. There is easily more space than this at SOU and the vast majority of aircraft using SOU are of a similar size to those at LCY.

Even if they did not extend the taxiway surely they could build a connection to the runway at the north end of the GA apron to halve the backtracking distance?

[StGermain]

They are finally doing something about this but only for the arrivals from the south which is rarely used. They are proposing a GPS based system which is apparently the future solution although sounds like the cheap option to me.
:confused:
Come on Rivet Joint, check your facts before bumbling in to a statement like that. Approaches from the South account for approximately 45% of the SOU approaches. Given that there is no consistent instrument approach for runway 02, not to mention the lack of a lighting system to support appropriate minima, give the guys at Southampton some credit for developing a cost effective solution to this problem. This will be applauded by the resident airlines who would ultimately have to pay for an expensive ILS development in their operating costs. My airline for one will be happy with the solution that our operating costs and passenger fares do not have to pay for.

Southampton would be damned if they were doing nothing about the 02 approach problem, so give them some credit for dealing with a long term problem that is certain to get worse if/when the DVOR is withdrawn.

[Wycombe]

The problem with the extending the taxiway is the fact that it would have to be parallel to the runway (safeguarding issues). The problem with that is that Mitchell Way turns in towards the runway too. Therefore you have to straighten that out, and to do that do SOU own the land next to the railway station, would moving the road affect the railway track etc. You'd have to move the Glidepath to the other side...etc.. it all mounts up to a big job and a big cost.

All the above could be avoided with a parallel taxiway to the east of the runway, running from a new taxiway/runway crossing point at the northern end of the current main apron and then north-east up to the 20 threshold. The SOU Masterplan included this and also aircraft parking stands in the north-east corner of the airfield.

http://www.southamptonairport.com/static/Southampton/Downloads/PDF/2015_Indicative_Land_Use-SOU_maps.pdf

Granted, runway crossing would be needed, but not back-tracking for 20, and all the issues Pottwiddler mentions above would be avoided?

[pottwiddler]

It may increase capacity but crossing a runway is introducing a hazard, surely that cannot be part of SOP's? What about procedures for low visibility?

[SWBKCB]

Is crossing the runway anymore dangerous than backtracking down it? I'd have though the less time spent taxying on the active runway the better?

Clearly a taxiway on the appropriate side of the runway would be better, but is crossing the worst option?

[stewyb]

would not the cheapest and most efficient/quickest way be to extend the taxiway out from the northern apron to the runway, there would only be a very small backtrack to the end of 20 and would considerably free up time for all planes arriving and departing. simples:ok:

[Groundloop]

It may increase capacity but crossing a runway is introducing a hazard, surely that cannot be part of SOP's? What about procedures for low visibility?

You better tell Heathrow that they should stop aircraft from the northern runway accessing Terminal 4 or the cargo areas and that Manchester should stop using their second runway then!

What do you think Air Traffic Controllers get paid for?:ugh:

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint, St Germain et al

Cheap is the success story for GPS based approaches, no ground equipment to maintain and no staff required for maintenance, plus an approach that is on the runway centreline, not offset as the current VOR/DME and NDB/DME approaches are. GPS was talked about three+ years ago, its not rocket science, where are the approaches?

An ILS for RWY 02 is not going to work, there is no business case for it It would have to be off-set to avoid Townhill Park hill. The resultant minima penalty would not be significantly different from the current non-precision approaches. A GPS approach may not improve the current minima, but you at least know exactly where the runway is when you pop out of cloud!

When the runway was being re-surfaced, myself and colleagues obtained an informal estimate to have a taxiway installed from the north end of the apron (around Stand 14). With the asphalt plant on site together with the contractors, price £40K. The perm "p***ing in the wind" comes to mind when we proposed it to the then BAA management!

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: That is interesting indeed. certainly begs the question as to why this small amount of investment isn't being made. Maybe it would be better to find another owner who is prepared to put their hands in their pockets.

[adfly]

You only need to look at Gatwick, Edinburgh and Manchester to see what a difference being BAAless (sorry HAHless) makes. Sadly I think BAA will keep SOU due to its proximity to LHR and for the sake of keeping the airports they operate 'varied', for PR's sake.

[davidjohnson6]

Suppose we assume 2 things:
1 - BAA / HAH is not going to see any significant monopoly inquiries in the UK for the next 10 years, having sold Gatwick, Stansted and Edinburgh
2 - Flybe is restored to good health in the next 2 years and remains the dominant carrier at Southampton.

As owner of both LHR and SOU, how much capacity does HAH have to make things difficult if Flybe launch new routes to major business centres (eg Madrid) in competition with Heathrow ?

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint

I can answer that simply, a significant part of the problem lay with a succession of technically deficient appointees to the roles of Operations Director and Airport/Managing Director. For many years blissful ignorance reigned with a refusal to listen to those of us who had the competence to identify the problems and the long term impact on airport development.
The location of the Short Term car park relative to Stands 7-12, and the restrictions it causes to size of aircraft which can park thereon (only currently circumvented by the CAA's agreement to permit the owners to fudge the CAP 168 obstacle clearance rules), is a monument to this.

For many years my colleagues and I pushed for a northern taxiway. After the missed opportunity when the asphalt making plant was on-site during re-surfacing, future attempts were kicked into touch by the party line that there was insufficient room to build it. Funny how, when more car parking space was needed, the ILS Glidepath equipment was replaced (to make it more obstacle tolerant) and a car park was built where the taxiway could have gone!

And as for declining to buy the site where the Post Office building was eventually erected, removing the chance of extending the current apron and building an extension to the current Terminal Building? Why do that when you can build a new Terminal 2 miles from the current one on the east side, on a green field site, having to duplicate staffing and services, and create a near nightmare scenario when trying to get people between the two buildings (either a tunnel, not forgetting to divert the main gas pipeline which runs around the northern boundary; or a road with traffic lights to ensure obstacle clearance due the adjacent runway end). Should be interesting to see what the minimum flight connection times for PAX transferring between Terminals would be!

[Wycombe]

As owner of both LHR and SOU, how much capacity does HAH have to make things difficult if Flybe launch new routes to major business centres (eg Madrid) in competition with Heathrow ?


Can't see HAH doing that, even if there were multiple daily flights from SOU to the likes of MAD, FRA, ZRH, FCO, CPH, ARN etc. I can't see that making much more than a small dent in traffic to those destinations through LHR.

And even if they did make a dent, and a few short-haul rotations were removed at LHR, that would just mean they have more slots available to use more profitably for bigger a/c flying to more attractive long-haul destinations.

And, if Flybe fails, SOU fails, surely that would not be in HAH's interest either?

[Rivet Joint]

TCAS FAN: You certainly have great knowledge on the issue. It seems everything from the toilets to the frequent departure lounge refreshes have seem investment yet the most airside has seen is a couple of solar powered taxi lights that last time I checked were not even there any more. I think anyone who uses LHR, especially T5, would be forgiven for thinking that BAA/HAH are focused on retail rather than transport infrastructure.

I guess SOU is kind of stuck with a HAH/BE combo who both lack any real drive. Still, I guess its a better way to do business than to invest 40mil on a new terminal when two planes on the deck constitutes a busy day :rolleyes:.

[davidjohnson6]

Wycombe - not saying that HAH would want Flybe to fail. More that in much of Surrey and north Hampshire there are a lot of wealthy people. If SOU becomes too well connected to other European hubs, the possibility of connecting in (say) Madrid reduces the number of people who might be interested in a LHR-LIM nonstop route.

I'm wondering if it's perhaps in HAH's interest to put some sort of limiter on SOU's growth on routes to major hubs, encourage just routes to UK/Ireland/beach/small French airports instead, and retain all the passengers potentially travelling long haul to go to Heathrow instead. In effect, HAH keep all the cream at LHR but dump the less desirable offcuts at an outstation.

Of course whether HAH actually act in this way is a separate question entirely.

[TCAS FAN]

Rivet Joint

You got it in one, most of the money went landside, hence the hole that they are now in with having to spend serious money for the airport to develop further. Time for HAH to offload the problem?

[TCAS FAN]

.........and I never mentioned the OPS Director, anxious to impress, took over a survey project, got 02 & 20 mixed up, and had the survey done on the wrong end of the runway!

In the 1990s the CAA recognised that there was a distinct lack of technical expertise at many UK airports. These were the days of non aviation companies looking at airports as gold mines and snapping them up, what ever happened to National Express' venture into the airport business? The CAA brought out a document (CAP 700) to set out technical skills necessary to manage airports, problem it is only a code of practice, albeit that the ANO Article 211 requires that an applicant for an Aerodrome Licence is "competent". Unlike pilots or controllers you don't have to take exams to prove competency to become an Aerodrome Licence holder. A fancy CV will do!

[bad bear]

The 2006 master plan makes an interesting read. I love the way every airport confidently predicts they will grow. In Southampton's case they were expecting to rise from 1.8m pax to 3 m by 2015 but currently dropped to 1.7m Why can't the plan be to continue as they are with just under 2m passengers with existing infrastructure? Did they build the proposed new stands, taxiway or new car park?

http://www.southamptonairport.com/static/Southampton/Downloads/PDF/Sou_summary_MP_Nov06.pdf


bb

[TCAS FAN]

bad bear


No taxiway, no additional aprons, extended the Short Term Car Park (more money in parking cars than aeroplanes) and built another Car Park where a northern taxiway could have gone. But they did provide new restaurant and coffee facilities and upgraded the toilets!!!!!!

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Very nice toilets they are too!

[StGermain]

TCAS Fan, Rivet Joint et al....for the benefit of all of the thread watchers on here, I have to say my piece to make sure that everyone gets a fair opportunity to make their minds up that SOUs perceived lack of development is the fault of the misplaced notions of Ops Directors with other agendas, or were the decisions simply as a result of economic and planning circumstances at the time. My SOU tenure was relatively short during 1998-2003, but long enough to have gained a valuable insight in to many of the decisions that were taken at the time. TCAS Fan-very good points raised but your memory is failing you chum. The cost of the northern taxiway was a key consideration for the runway resurfacing in the late 1990s but it just was not viable to construct it at the time. The finished (lit) cost of the taxiway was closer to £340000, arguably 'cheap' but not when you have just 550000 passengers a year and comparatively small scheduled aeroplanes to pay for it. It seems, with hindsight, to be a poor decision but actually at the time, it simply didn't stack up. The runway finish in a grooved Marshall asphalt was the absolute necessity because of safety concerns. The Ops Director at the time, a civil engineer, whilst not meeting your perception of a competent person was the one person who could mobilise a significant construction effort that saw the fastest runway resurfacing project in BAA history. Perhaps, though, that doesn't meet your criteria for a competent person but in the eyes of airlines and passenger safety, I'd say that it pretty much ticks all of the boxes. One important point worth making also, is that the northern taxiway construction has to cross the runway and can't run parallel to the runway on the western side. This isn't about centreline clearances, it is necessary to meet a planning condition that states that no part of the permitted airport development can be closer than 300m to any domestic housing on Southampton Road.

On the subject of the Southern business park site where the post office now resides, again a simple matter of economics. There was no loco airline on the horizon when this land came up for sale, which when added to the 600k or so passengers that the airport was handling, the £21m price tag for a piece of land that the airport couldn't afford to develop and wouldn't need until it got to 2.9m passenger per annum, just didn't stack up. Again, hindsight is a wonderful thing but do not do the 'Ops Directors' the dis service of making people think that these things were never considered.


I'll close by saying that I generally admire the way that people contribute to the threads in here, but to lay the blame at the feet of individual in senior positions rather than giving some credence to some decisions taken on an economic basis is somewhat poorly judged.

[No RYR for me]

Excellent post St Germain. Good to see that there also people in the know reading and contributing! :D

[TCAS FAN]

StGermain

On the subject of runway re-surfacing. The OPS Director played a somewhat passive role. The Runway Re-surfacing Team, provided by BAA, did the bulk of management, both mobilisation and implementation, together with supplemented Airside OPS staff.

As for the Marshall Asphalt grooving, I saw the friction assessment results upon re-surfacing, far better than expectations. Sincerely doubt that with the prevailing runway crossfall that grooving was necessary, which to this day is not fit for purpose as it water does not fully drain from the grooves.

The current grooving situation still proves problematical. How many aircrew have seen a damp runway (ie a visible matt surface) which is reported as "wet" by Airside OPS due to water being trapped in the grooves and then being thrown up into the wheel arches by the inspecting vehicle. How many thousands in revenue has been lost over the years by diversions (I remember the Air Europa B738 & Spanair MD 83 diversions) because of this, 3+ hours after rain has ceased! Add to that the number of occasions when the runway has been closed due to a corrugated surface caused by water sitting in the grooves, freezing and expanding over the top of the grooves. I know of someone who congratulated himself about the money he saved by not having full width grooves, one decision that the Runway Re-surfacing Team did sign off!

[TCAS FAN]

StGermain

Just to clarify my position on a northern taxiway, the figure quoted was to connect the north end of TWY A to the runway. Not all that is required but would have been a significant improvement over what still exists today. The position of such a taxiway (adjacent to Stand 14) would permit most 02 landing traffic to taxi directly off the runway, without having to make a 180 turn, would significantly expedite 20 departures (and the ability of ATC to increase departure rates) and remove the current log-jam with aircraft on Stands 7/8/9 unable to push back due to aircraft queuing at Hold B1 awaiting line-up clearance.

You mention things not financially stacking up, are we not currently talking about the airport Master Plan, something that was formulated many many years after the world class airport group bought the site freehold, did they not think that the airport had development potential and if so how was the infrastructure going to develop?

[StGermain]

I knew you wouldn't let this one lie!;) ha ha. I see that you are again concentrating on just the operational aspects on all of your issues with SOU, laying blame at the feet of those who you consider to have no competence because they haven't always subscribed to your ideas for a utopian airport. At the risk of repeating myself chum, it really does come down to finance available. As you are seemingly an operational bod, I know that you will be in agony with what follows. Truth is my friend, available funds will always be the investment limiter at any airport,and in particular the subject regional airport where 90% of the income comes from one airline who will not be keen to finance any expansion because a: their air fares will have to pay for it, and b: the resultant increase in ground capacity could open the way for rival airlines.

The runway performance issues you have cited my dear chap are quite rare, I think, and just look at your choice of the aeroplanes with operational difficulties in wet runway conditions - B737/800 and MD83! The runway is only 1700m long for goodness sake, no wonder the crews were reluctant to commit to that. I actually think that the airline traffic model currently operating,is just about right for the length of that runway.

As for the airport master plan, try and reflect on what the masterplan process asked airports to do. ie; in a perfect world, how would you grow and where would you grow to (land requirements) during the next 25 years. This work was completed by airports in 2006, a whole three years before the UK was bitten hard by a long term recession and airlines failing frequently. No wonder the plans have changed chum, if it was your business I think you may have reflected on your aspirations too and limited your financial risk just like the management of SOU have done.

You've obviously got a heap of history with SOU and lots of reasonable ideas for change. Have you ever thought about channeling your frustration with the perceived lack of competence at SOU, in to something positive by going to speak to them? May be worth a thought chap, as your audience on this forum are not the people who can make those changes happen.

Please do not take the above response as a dig at your professional, operational opinions. I just had to comment to bring a little bit of reality and honesty in to your world and the minds of followers on this thread...

[TCAS FAN]

StGermain

I, together with many of my colleagues, tried channelling our frustration for 20+ years. The resultant action - zilch, finances being mostly focussed on landside projects.

Time will tell, either a significant investment in the airside and surrounding infrastructure (if HAH have the stomach for it) to improve runway declared distances and movement rates, sell, or stagnation and eventual decline (BEE to dispose of their E195s in favour of the underpowered E175s?).

It could be done, look at what Southend have achieved.

[Rivet Joint]

St Germain: You are talking rubbish.

Either you are a bean counter or you just have a penchant for going against the grain.

Anyone who cares to have an opinion on SOU will agree that the sale of land practically inside the airport's active boundary and certainly no more than a few hundred metres from the runway for a mail distribution centre is about as dumb a mistake as they come. Such a thing could be erected anywhere yet it now sits in a place that is going to hamstring the airport for years to come. Likewise with the construction of a new carpark where the much needed taxiway should be. Surely any businessman worth his salt would prohibit any landside infrastructure encroaching on to airside. There is no need for it to infringe on valuable landnor does it reap any benefit from doing so. The only answer as to why these catastrophic mistakes have been made is sheer short-sightedness. You allude to this in your post yourself and no amount of bean counting can justify aquick fix being justified in the face of what now amounts to a straitjacket on airside ops.

For goodness sake even the likes of BOH and SEN have had millions ploughed into them whilst having very few ops to go on. The new owner of Manston is even talking about investing money. BAA or whatever it is called now must have reaped some sort of profit from the sale of EDI, LGW and STN or even if not it’s annual airside investment budget now has to stretch to fewer airports. Either way itstands to reason that some funds should/could be made available to SOUairside regardless of the recession. You have to speculate to accumulate especially if you are an operation with any kind of aspiration. SOU has lots of unique points none more so than it being the cruise capital of northern Europe amongst many other things.

I think the real reason why no investment is materialising, and it has been touched upon on here before, is that BAA do not want SOU taking away any of LHR's market which of course is nonsense. It’s like when car manufacturers bring out a new model to slot beneath another model in its line up and therefore don't make it as good as it could be. It's a total nonsense and proof that SOU would be better of away from its owner which rather ironically now calls itself "Heathrow Holdings Limited". Point proved.

[Leg]

The new boss of the '90%' airline is about to up sticks and move along the A31 if they do not cut costs, so either no more investment in this little airport, or no airport! ;)

[Wycombe]

Leg said:

so either no more investment in this little airport, or no airport!

I assume that's not what you meant to say - I think more investment would be preferable!

One would have to assume that what you describe is a standard commercial threat to HAH, and is against the backdrop that Flybe might actually increase their ops from SOU as part of the current review/base "consolidation" process.

To actually carry it out would be commercial suicide by Flybe at their biggest base IMHO.

For all it's faults, SOU does have a great location (at the centre of the south coast, and near enough to the home counties to make it an alternative to LHR and LGW for some), great transport links (road, rail and cruise ships!) and decent facilities (landside, at least).

How many of the above does BOH have? And lets not forget who they would be competing with (on the "sunshine" routes anyway), if they did move down the A31? Like I said, it would be madness - IMHO!

[StGermain]

Hey chum, thanks for your post. A bean counter? I've been called worse but yes I am. What I also possess is a little more insight in to the reasons for not purchasing the site where the Royal Mail sorting office sits today. Take the time to read back a few posts chum, the airport as it was then could not afford the £21m price tag for the purchase of that business park. BAA had just spent £25m on the purchase and redevelopment of the main airport site and it certainly wasn't able to purchase the additional piece of land that, correctly as it happens, would not be used for an airport development whilst the airport was in BAA ownership.

I do not believe that HAH are the slightest bit concerned about traffic and passenger drawn away from Heathrow. There is so much demand for slots at Heathrow any capacity released could be instantly resold or traded. Because of the length of SOUs runway, any traffic released from LHR would have a negligible impact.


Keep up the good work chum http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Leg]

Wycombe, no mistake son, whilst you are correct investment will be preferable, there will be no future investment at SOU because their cash cow is not willing to pay their crazy fees, and if flybe do up sticks (believe me they will if the airport do not play ball), then the whole place is in doubt, so again no investment, get it now?

SOU is not flybe's biggest base, BOH would work as they would not compete with incumbent operators, remember once Ejets go so do the sunshine routes (not all, but most). The new bod in charge does not take prisoners and these airports are about to find out how tough he is.

[Wycombe]

I work in a world of commercial brinkmanship, and believe me there is a very fine line between toughness and stupidity. That's all I'm saying.

I have no connection with Flybe (other than occasionally used them as a customer out of SOU), so which base is bigger? (I have seen lists suggesting that SOU is, so wasn't making it up!)

[Flitefone]

2014 is going to be a big year for both FlyBe and southampton Airport. The airline is in a fight for survival and has to get through a long winter yet, when revenues are traditionally low for many airlines.

I think the airline will see it through but emerge as a much smaller outfit, smaller still than plans already indicate. Time will tell.

As for the airport, my observation is that it is more likely than not that the airport will be sold next year along with Glasgow and Aberdeen.

Any airport owner new or not, will want returns from the investment. What that means for SOU is anyone's guess. MAG could buy it and build houses and commercial property, it could be bought by amazon and used for a new Distribution centre and drone base! Anything is possible. Heathrow could decide to build new parallel runways at Southampton, we just don't know.

What is certain is that regional airports in Europe with less than 3m pax are n trouble and generally unable to cover costs. That is the official line of ACI Europe the airports trade body. Smaller Airports need more diverse business or government aid.

From the standpoint of diverse business base at least BOH is better placed than most.

In the UK, we have already seen the closure of Filton and Plymouth airports. They are probably not the last.

It's going to be an interesting year!

FF

[Rivet Joint]

StGermain: There is no need to read back a few posts old chum as you keep making the same point. I'd like to wager I have a better understanding of land than you seeing as its the subject of my profession and I can tell you that the value of land is largely irrelevant. From a swamp to a plot of land on Bond Street its value is dictated by what someone is willing to pay. What is far more important to greater minds than your own is potential/self preservation. There are many many examples of where even the most inconspicuous piece of land has been purchased for a sum far outweighing its tangible value be it for future potential or even to protect ones interest. The mail distribution centre land ticks both these boxes. It doesn't matter if the land was sold for £100mil there would be a reason why someone was paying that figure and SOU more than anyone had the most to lose from not getting their hands on it. The hard facts might point to the fact they did not have the capital at the time but that merely confirms the basis of my argument that the decision was short sighted. Your other points are baseless especially since BAA bought the greenbelt land to the north east which they themselves intend to use for an industrial park whilst retaining the crucial parts for the airport.

Your last paragraph shows up your misunderstanding of how the modern day hub airport works. Its all about feed and if LHR has any chance of combating the super-hubs in the middle east or even AMS they cannot allow any seepage of this all important feed traffic in particular from the wealthy south going to a neighbour. SOU with its transport links, quick security etc is very appealing to those on business and all this is proof that SOU itself is an example of one of those strategic buys that I touched upon above.

[Rivet Joint]

Leg: Yes SOU needs BE but vice versa. With SOU BE can have a sizable hub on the South whilst having all the balls in their caught and having absolutely no threat from a bigger rival moving in. I'd like to see you prove SOU is not BE's biggest base now LGW is on the way out and in any event it will shortly be their most strategically important. If you opened your mind a bit you would realise that BE make a living serving routes/airports that the orange and navy blue lot don't/can't touch and the sale of LGW slots are further proof. SOU will reap the rewards of the LGW sale just as soon as BE get back on a better financial footing. It is the perfect and best bet as a stronghold on the South for them. Oh and of course there will be no investment at SOU especially in terms of a runway extension and BE will very much hope it stays that way.

[Rivet Joint]

Flitephone: Nice attempt at trolling but it really is getting boring now. Just like your football team you airport is small fry and always will be. Even the apple of Dorset's eye Palmair has long left the morgue just like most of its population.

I will merely answer with a copy and paste job: -

Lets take a stock,

Southampton:

The cruise capital of northern Europe with 4 cruise terminals and therefore thousands embarking/disembarking daily (indeed recently 30,000 people in one day). Also head office of many of the cruise companies and base for staff transfer (upwards of 800 per ship).

One of the biggest oil refineries in England.

The second biggest container port in the country and the biggest exporter of vehicles in the whole of UK.

2 universities with one of them being in the top 10 of the whole country and being a national leader in various high end fields. Indeed thousands of Asian students come year round.

The best art collection outside London.

The home of the biggest boat show in the UK.

Massively multicultural population.

History wise the airport and city are closely associated with the Spitfire and of course Southampton is where the Titanic set sail from so big draws for tourists.

Also has a royal naval base and many army and RAF bases close by.

Home of a premiership football team with the biggest stadium on the south coast.

The airport has a modern upmarket terminal with a security fast track probably only bettered by LCY and of course is bordered by the main motorway to London and has the closest plane to train distance in the UK.

Also outside the big London airports and Manchester it has the highest number of passengers on nearly all its domestic routes than any other UK airport (200,000 yearly alone on the Edinburgh route – I make that pretty much a ¼ of Bournemouth’s total yearly volume!)

Now Bournemouth......................... http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

It has a beach?

[StGermain]

You make some fair points but you need to be a little more open minded. Like all contributors on this forum, you have a opinion but that doesn't make you factually right. I very, very much doubt that you have an inside view or indeed any knowledge of the history behind SOU development. This is my last ever post on here, as I started this thread for a constructive and informed debate on SOU but find it has deteriorated in to un informed opinion. Enjoyable while it lasted chums. Happy landings. :ugh:

[Han 1st Solo]

BHX is the biggest base, in terms of based aircraft anyway.

[JobsaGoodun]

I've always enjoyed an informed sharing of opinions on this site....please let's not allow differing views to get in the way of treating one another respectfully.

There appears little point in arguing which of Flybe's bases is the biggest unless you also include the measure by which the statement is made. If its on destinations served then I believe that SOU probably just has the edge, but if its on movements or based aircraft then this may not be correct.

In my opinion, without Flybe, SOU has a massive whole in its operations. Sure, other airlines would probably jump in and pick up the slack but the question the airport operator needs to ask itself is how far does it push this? What is the cost of falling out with it's biggest customer?

Does Flybe need SOU? - well I guess that depends on how successful their operation is and what it contributes to their business. Looking back, it's probably fair to say that there has generally been greater preference and success for operations at SOU when compared to BOH, but 'success' can't be based around a sole measurement.

[adfly]

So far Flybe appear to be dropping the following:

SOU-LBA ~18 weekly Q400 (from 19th Jan)
SOU-HAJ 6 weekly Q400 (from 19th Jan)
SOU-BCN 3 weekly E195 (Summer seasonal route)
SOU-BZR 2 weekly E195 (As above)
SOU-IOM 3 weekly Q400 (Again as above)

As for whether anyone will replace them BMI Regional could take a look at a couple the first two, but I'd say the chance of them starting at SOU is pretty slim. Vueling may also want to take a second look at Barcelona, but again that is fairly unlikely.

[RedPortLeft]

Perhaps Eastern could return and have the last laugh after Flybe squeezed them out ...

Seems a bit odd to drop such a frequent route, it was busy whenever I was on it

[Channex258]

Worked closely with these flights for the past couple of years loads always seemed decent, suppose that's no reflection on whether it was making any brass or not!
Having said that out of the few BE flights we have at LBA (BHD/SOU/GLA), Southampton was/is well known for its terrible on time performance and being canx at the drop of a hat.
I know the afternoon & evening flights are operated by the same crew so any knock on delayed the other flight. must be no fun telling pax they'd be going to BOH (Poor Servisair! :p)

Still a very sad situation, wish every single member of crew all the best, 99.9% of them always cheery and even though they must be bricking it about their jobs, maintained a great level of professionalism whilst on duty, from what I've seen anyway. Never easy but especially this time of year.

Judging by the weather I won't be seeing many Dash 8's this evening when i walk into work!

Channex258

[LBIA]

Eastern Airways didn't wait long after last night's flybe announcement. They now have a Leeds - Southampton route on sale operating 3x daily using a 2nd Leeds based Jetstream 41 aircraft.

[Flightrider]

Good for them. I see they're running the SOU-LBA-ABZ pattern again, which should strengthen the whole base and make it a viable proposition. I'm surprised that Flybe have pulled it, but equally given the poor reliability achieved - it always seemed to be the LBA route which was chopped when anything was cancelled or running late - then it became a self-fulfilling conclusion to a large degree.

[adfly]

Apparently Flybe are to also stop Nice, Palma, Malaga, Alicante and Faro earlier next summer, all around the 30th September, I imagine there will a few many unhappy people as I would've thought that there would be reasonable demand for Alicante and Malaga at the least past this date.

(Edited due to change of circumstances).

[Wycombe]

Bad news if true, I suspect SOU will find it very hard to get another carrier into operate these routes, what with the operational limitations of the airfield.

At least they have until the end of next Summer's season to try to sort something out.

I wonder what has happened to the talk that Flybe were rumoured to be (re)opening trunk routes from SOU, to the likes of FRA?....that all seems to have gone quiet.

[JC25]

I don't think we'll see Flybe launching many (if any) new routes in the near term.

The current focus is very much on consolidating on what is currently profitable and trimming/scrapping what is not. Only when that is complete and the company is on a much better financial footing will growth become a major objective again.

For Southampton I think it will signal the end of E195s flying to the Med after summer 2014 and the grounding if the E195 fleet. I also wouldn't be too surprised to see a reduction in summer seasonal regional France flights after 2014.

I guess the main problem is the seasonality of the routes... They may well be profitable routes, but the problem is there's not much use for the aircraft for the rest of the year. It's no good making £5m in the summer, just to lose £6m in the winter.

[Nakata77]

Interesting development but also rather surprising that it has come to this.

Can someone tell me what would prevent easyJet (A319 not A320) from launching a base at SOU and re-instating some of those lost routes?

I think SEN and SOU have many similarities so not sure why they wouldn't consider SOU.

Bad news for BOH of course if that was ever to happen.

[Flitefone]

Nakatta, Southampton's runway is too short for a significant year round operation by EZY or other similar operators with based Airbus or Boeing.

Southend is not the best comparison, look to Belfast which has two airports, the smaller of which Belfast city has a runway of 1829m, this is 100m longer than SOU.

EZY fly from the much longer runway at Belfast International, not city, because they can fly longer routes without payload restrictions. A319 are used at city but predominantly on the domestic routes to London.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, Southampton faces two big challenges in 2014. The first is Flybe, but there are plenty of airlines to take up the slack left by any change of Flybe routes: KLM, Aer lingus, Loganair, Eastern & Blue Islands for example. We have already seen Eastern leap in following the Leeds route cut by Flybe.

The second challenge for SOU in 2014 is ownership. Based on what I see and hear, it is extremely likely that Aberdeen, Glasgow and Southampton airports will be put up for sale next year. I know there are already buyers in the wings for Aberdeen and Glasgow but what will happen at SOU is much less clear, but it certainly is not a viable additional runway for LHR, that role has been taken by AMS, DUB and DXB.

FF

[Flitefone]

Heathrow Investor Lines Up UK Airports Deal (http://news.sky.com/story/1180920/heathrow-investor-lines-up-uk-airports-deal)

[pottwiddler]

Interesting development.

I think that it's a throwaway comment that MAG would be interested

[Centre cities]

MAG will need to be careful that they do not find themselves in the same position as the BAA did when required to sell airports.

Centre cities

[davidjohnson6]

Would owning both Bournemouth and Southampton airports really be acceptable to the relevant Govt bodies ?

[Flitefone]

MAG are interested in adding Glasgow to their portfolio. Like ABZ it makes Money. GIP wants ABZ. Neither BOH or SOU offer the kinds of returns that infrastructure investors like GIP and now MAG with its Australian investors, seek. There is nothing to suggest that MAG has any interest in SOU. I doubt they would Keep BOH now either if they could find a buyer at a sensible price. Neither of the south coast airports is big enough to warrant much value these days.

Ferrovial is a different situation. Their interest is in all three airports that will be up for sale, Glasgow, Aberdeen and SOU, which may be a more attractive bulk buy proposition to the seller HAH, than dealing with three buyers, one for each airport.

As individual airports only GLA and ABZ have interest apparently - as per my earlier post.

FF

[TCAS FAN]

All quiet on the SOU front at the moment, is that a sign of terminal decline with the BEE cut backs and the apparent demise of their Spanish routes?

Something for the parent company to ponder, look at what Southend have done with a 37 metre wide runway, with a TORA 1739metres/TODA 1799metres and an LDA 1604metres (less than SOU). Achieve that, finally resolve the close-in obstacle problems (mainly trees near Mansbridge), after 20 years of procrastination, the future could be Easy!!

[davidjohnson6]

If Easyjet come to SOU, what do you think would happen to Flybe on some of the fatter routes like Jersey or to Edinburgh / Glasgow ? Presumably these are of particular importance to Flybe's cashflow being year round and attracting plenty of people travelling on business who will pay higher fares than leisure travellers and other non discretional passengers.

[TCAS FAN]

davidjohnson6

Anything less than 60-90 mins sector length with a Q400 I would speculate that Flybe have nothing to worry about. Growth has been flat for years, the need is routes farther into Europe and even the Canaries, I see that Easy are operating an A320 to Tenerife out of Southend, that must be around a 4 hour sector (ie around 2000NM), look where you could go to Europe with that available at SOU.

[canberra97]

If only the future was ORANGE for SOU.= :)

[MARKEYD]

Will be interesting to see if Easy Jet or Ryanair move in more at Bournemouth from next summer if the Med programme is cancelled , its a large programme that Flybe have from SOU with good loads

Historically its been a bit hit and miss at Southampton regarding IT flights with a small programme back in the early 90 s using Palmair 146 a/c then a big expansion late 90 / 20 s using Air Europa 737 / Iberworld A320 and even Britannia 757 s before slowly the traffic went off to Bournemouth

Prehaps a Vuelling operation similar to Cardiff may be the answer using A319 ?

Interesting times ahead

[davidjohnson6]

Would Vueling really want to go back to Southampton after having left not so long ago ?
Once bitten, twice shy...

[MARKEYD]

Vuelling only operated 1 season to Barcelona with rather low loads if i remember but with no competition to the Med perhaps they may look at it again ?

[Serenity]

Problem with SOU is the size of the stands. The largest ones, 2-5 only fit up to an E195.
When an A320 or larger arrives it takes up two stands.
So a maximum of two at any time can turn round.
Hence no larger airline is interested and why Ryanair, Thomson and occasionally Monarch operate out of BOH which has no such problems.