EASA Aerobatics Rating

[dublinpilot]

Is it known yet what is involved in getting the Aerobatics rating under EASA?

Presumably there will be some sort of grandfather rights for JAA PPL holders. If so, does anyone know how much Aero's you need to have loged in order to get the grandfather rights? Or indeed, what the defination of Aero's will be under EASA?

Just wondering if I should do an hour's aero's with an instructor before my licence changes to EASA next year (renewal due in July 2012), and thereby (hopefully) be entitled to grandfather rights.

I don't really have any intension of doing aeros in the future, but if an hour now preserved my privlidge to do them in the future without any skills test or written test, then I think it would be worth it. But I don't really see much information about it at present.

dp

[The500man]

I think they've stuck a stupid 40 hour PIC requirement on it. Other than that I don't know. I suggest two fingers to EASA... They can only tell us what to do if we let them!

[BillieBob]

FCL.010 Definitions

‘Aerobatic flight’ means an intentional manoeuvre involving an abrupt change in an aircraft’s attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight or for instruction for licences or ratings other than the aerobatic rating.'

FCL.800 Aerobatic rating
(a) Holders of a pilot licence for aeroplanes, TMG or sailplanes shall only undertake aerobatic flights when they hold the appropriate rating.
(b) Applicants for an aerobatic rating shall have completed:
(1) at least 40 hours of flight time or, in the case of sailplanes, 120 launches as PIC in the appropriate aircraft category, completed after the issue of the licence;
(2) a training course at an ATO, including:
(i) theoretical knowledge instruction appropriate for the rating;
(ii) at least 5 hours or 20 flights of aerobatic instruction in the appropriate aircraft category.
(c) The privileges of the aerobatic rating shall be limited to the aircraft category in which the flight instruction was completed. The privileges will be extended to another category of aircraft if the pilot holds a licence for that aircraft category and has successfully completed at least 3 dual training flights covering the full aerobatic training syllabus in that category of aircraft.

[BEagle]

I don't know what the situation is in Eire, but in the UK the EASA Aerobatic Rating will only be needed after Apr 2015 - and even then for aerobatics on EASA aircraft only. Those who wish to fly aerobatics in Chipmunks, Tiger Moths or other suitable non-EASA aircraft will not require an aerobatic rating.

The idiots in Köln have added a '40 hr as PIC since licence issue' pre-requisite before the Aerobatic Rating can be issued upon completion of the course, which we are trying to fight. Unfortunately, it seems that the CAA are currently too lily-livered to support the unanimous view of the BAeA, AOPA, LAA and the FAI opposing the EASA prerequisite - but we intend to put pressure on them to damn well grow a pair and to act in support of industry!

[flybymike]

What exactly is an "aircraft category" in this context?

[BillieBob]

FCL.010 Definitions
‘Category of aircraft’ means a categorisation of aircraft according to specified basic characteristics, for example aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon.

[BackPacker]

‘Category of aircraft’ means a categorisation of aircraft according to specified basic characteristics, for example aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon.

Ah. So any aerobatics you've done in a free balloon can't be used to count towards your helicopter aerobatics rating. I get it now.:p

[stiknruda]

This is madness! I currently hangar and fly three virtually identical aerobatic aeroplanes - two on a permit, one CoA.

I would guess that in my average 100 hrs per year, with most flights being 20mins, less than 5% or 15 sorties do not involve any aerobatics.

That I am expected to acquire (no doubt at a cost) a rating to aerobat the newest member of the fleet defies any logic at all. Loonies and asylum spring to mind. I would write to my MP but I doubt that he'd be inclined to do anything.:ugh:

Stik

[Jwscud]

Don't suppose anyone's come up with any idea of grandfather rights?

I have about 15 hours of unimpeachable aerobatic instruction in my logbook together with less frequent "recreational" aeros plus obviously the PIC requirement. Will this be a rubber stamp job or will a flight be required to "demonstrate competency" or some other such rubbish?

Hope the CAA have lost their regulatory anode and cathode...

[BillieBob]

EU law does not recognise, per se, the concept of 'grandfather rights'. Previous experience may, however, be credited towards the issue of Part-FCL licences and ratings in accordance with a 'Credit Report', prepared by the competent authority in consultation with EASA. One may suppose that a credit report will be prepared in respect of previous aerobatic experience but it is doubtful that this is currently high on the UK CAA's list of priorities. As BEagle correctly points out, the aerobatic rating is not currently intended to become a legal requirement in the UK until 2015, although that's not so long given the CAA's usual work rate.

[BEagle]

Don't suppose anyone's come up with any idea of grandfather rights?

Yes we have. AOPA, BAeA, BGA and LAA have been working with the CAA on this and one of the first items we discussed was 'grandfather rights' for those with evidence of having received aerobatic instruction or for FIs who've already had the 'no aerobatic instruction' removed from their FI Rating.

[stiknruda]

Grandfather rights - surely my CAA issued intermediate aerobatic formation (lead and member) Display Authorisation down to 100' agl is evidence to those rights.

This is just so stupid, bureaucracy for its own sake.

----------------------

Many years ago, "JJ" was hauled in front of the magistrate for low flying at Santa Pod, he beat the place up and allegedly caused damge to the timing apparatus by going through it in the wrong direction.

He was found guilty and asked to surrender his licence. At this point he confessed that he didn't possess one. He was asked to explain himself and said, well during the war when they taught me to fly the Spitfire they didn't issue me with a licence!

[dublinpilot]

Yes we have. AOPA, BAeA, BGA and LAA have been working with the CAA on this and one of the first items we discussed was 'grandfather rights' for those with evidence of having received aerobatic instruction or for FIs who've already had the 'no aerobatic instruction' removed from their FI Rating.

Thanks BEagle. It was actually your recent article in Flyer that got me thinking about this ;)

Any idea how much aeros experience will be required to get grandfather rights? If I did my hour with an instructor for revalidating my SEP class rating, learning something about aeros, do you think that would be enough to get grandfather rights?

Do we know if the aeros rating will require revalidation? I presume it will, given that it's a rating and not a qualification.

Having said that, it might all be a little pointless, as the requirements to get the rating shown above, seem pretty much what I'd need to do to be competent anyway, so getting grandfather rights might be somewhat pointless, and saves nothing.

dp

[Rod1]

I did an AOPA aerobatic cert in the early 90’s and did a bit of competition aerobatics a few years later. I had done < 40 hours in aerobatic machinery when I was cleared to standard level competition. I am looking at getting back into some TW flying and possibly some light aerobatics. I assume provided I fly a none EASA aircraft I can keep my CAA PPL and ignore all this Cr@p?

Rod1

[BEagle]

dublinpilot:

Do we know if the aeros rating will require revalidation? I presume it will, given that it's a rating and not a qualification

No it won't. Although to prevent the idiotic €urocrats inventing yet more rules (e.g. defining the content of the revalidation training flight), we will probably make 'recommendations' for pilots who haven't committed aerobation for a while.

Rod1:

I assume provided I fly a none EASA aircraft I can keep my CAA PPL and ignore all this Cr@p?

Correct. But even if you decide to change to an EASA part-FCL pilot licence, you will still be able to fly non-EASA aerobatic aircraft on that licence AND conduct aerobatics on them WITHOUT an Aerobatic Rating!

Yes, it is indeed all complete and utter bolleaux!

[BillieBob]

If I did my hour with an instructor for revalidating my SEP class rating, learning something about aeros, do you think that would be enough to get grandfather rights?Hmmm, let's see. Would the IAA/CAA/EASA consider part of a one hour flight with a random instructor, learning 'something about aeros', to be at least equivalent to a 5 hour approved course and the associated theoretical knowledge training? Tough call but my guess would be, errrr, possibly not.

[Human Factor]

Having completed five hours of aeros training back in 19mumble-mumble as part of a CAP509 course, sadly in a C152 Aerobat instead of a proper aeroplane, and subsequently taken a break from that kind of thing for a few years, I have been flying a Yak52 in various unusual attitudes regularly for the past five years.

I presume my rating will be granted no questions asked as a result.

Out of interest, does anyone know if a Yak52 is an "EASA" type or not? I assume it is as it has a CAA Permit (as opposed to LAA).

[Wide-Body]

Hi HF

The status of CAA vs EASA permit ac is a little unclear. I am not sure where the Yak 52s will end up.

As far as I believe for the rating you will have to pay money to have your grandfather rights. You may have to do a flight with an Aerobatic instructor? (I know where you can find one;) )

The plus side is we have some very good guys on our side fighting the case.

As others on this thread have stated, this is just lunacy

[BackPacker]

I don't object to some sort of formal sign-off, possibly after some sort of structured course, before a fresh PPL is allowed to perform aerobatics. But I wish they had called it an "endorsement" (like tailwheel, complex etc) instead of a rating. That would have been much easier for all involved.

[BEagle]

The Yak52 is a 'non-EASA' aircraft and will thus be free of the €urocratic bull$hit of the Aerobatic Rating.

[BillieBob]

There is, of course, always the slight problem that (with the exception of the LAPL) experience gained on a non-EASA aircraft cannot be credited towards the issue of a Part-FCL licence or rating.

[Whopity]

experience gained on a non-EASA aircraft cannot be credited towards the issue of a Part-FCL licence or rating. This should be interesting for the schools in the USA who don't have EASA aircraft!

[mrmum]

Isn't the definition of "an EASA aircraft" just something they want to control and regulate (ie make everything difficult and expensive), rather than being anything to do with the state of registration? For example, Annex II aircraft will be non EASA, but lots will be registered in EASA countries.

[BEagle]

Correct, mrmum.

The more you learn about €ASA, the more you realise how unfit for purpose the whole thing is.

It is also obvious that the CAA hasn't taken as forthright an attitude as it should have done to protect the interests of British pilots. It has simply rolled over to €urocracy without any fight. Disgraceful.

[flybymike]

IMO, EASA are simply producing regulation as part of their gravy train job creation scheme and in order to perpetuate their own existence.

[BillieBob]

This should be interesting for the schools in the USA who don't have EASA aircraft!I wasn't aware that there were that many schools in the US (or anywhere else for that matter) using Annex II aircraft for training.

[proudprivate]

This is just so stupid, bureaucracy for its own sake.


No it is protectionism and artificial job creation, to the detriment of the whole aviation community.

...one of the first items we discussed was 'grandfather rights'


Mmmm. Did you discuss grandfather rights for 3rd country ICAO license holders too ?


I hope the transport committee (http://www.europarl.europa.eu/activities/committees/membersCom.do?language=EN&body=TRAN) sees the lunacy of it all and gives the EASA FCL proposal the shaft it deserves.

It's still not too late to write to Brian Simpson and tell him what you think. You can also see them live this afternoon when they discuss the highly needed 50 extra jobs at EASA + the well justified budget increase of 5.7%

[astir 8]

Whopity, I think the definition of an "EASA" aircraft is being a bit misunderstood there.

But don't get too complacent about Annex II types. Rumour is that Easa will hunt them down in the end. :{:{

[clivewatson]

Today EASA announced their new motto. It is currently being translated at great expense into 27 languages.

In English it reads "we are not happy until you are not happy."

[The500man]

The next step might be to make sure cannot physically start the aircraft unless you hold the rating to fly it. Maybe a card reader in the aircraft that disables it until you scan your EASA license as a mandatory part of preflight preparation.

If I worked at EASA I would be nodding my head to that thinking what a great idea!

I'm sure that by now all EASA employees must know that EASA is viewed as a complete joke and that their jobs are utterly pointless and a complete waste of everybodies time. If not, it's just another example of them failing to listen to the aviation community.

[BEagle]

Mmmm. Did you discuss grandfather rights for 3rd country ICAO license holders too ?

With respect to the Aerobatic Rating, only grandfather rights for aerobatic training or endorsement conducted in ICAO, non-EU nations. For example, aerobatic training in the USA or aerobatic endorsement in Australia.

[djpil]

I am just doing some research on what is happening in other parts of the world as Australia is rewriiting the licensing reg now and wondering if there is any update on this yet? I found the following info online:
The exercises of the aerobatic flying training syllabus should be repeated as necessary until the applicant achieves a safe and competent standard. The training should be tailored to the category of aircraft and limited to the permitted manoeuvres of that type of aircraft. The exercises should comprise at least the following practical training items (if permitted):
4.1. Aerobatic manoeuvres
– Chandelle
– Lazy Eight
– Aileron Roll
– Barrel Roll
– Rudder Roll
– Loop and inverted loop
– Immelmann
– Split S
4.2. Confidence manoeuvres and recoveries
– slow flights and stalls
– steep turns
– side slips
– engine restart in flight (if applicable)
– spins and recovery
– recovery from spiral dives
– recovery from unusual attitudes
What categories of aircraft are there?

[Big Pistons Forever]

What categories of aircraft are there?

In Canada there is no rating required to fly aerobatics but you need an "Aerobatic Instructor Rating" to teach aerobatics. As an instructor you are expected to teach to the capabilities of the aircraft. This will obviously be different for a C 152 as compared to say a Extra 300. The regulator makes an assessment of your instructional competence based on the aircraft you do you flight test in. If this is a lower performance entry level aerobatic aircraft then they expect you to know your personal limitations and not instruct manoevers you are not competent to perform like for example inverted spins in a Pitts if all you have ever aerobated is a C 150A. So far this system has IMO worked very well and ensures there is some quality control on the part of instructors offering aerobatic instruction.

[djpil]

Thanks Big but I had already found out about Canada. Seems fairly sensible. Some people here seem enamoured of EASA regulations so I wanted to learn more.

[BillieBob]

From FCL.010 - Definitions
‘Category of aircraft’ means a categorisation of aircraft according to specified basic characteristics, for example aeroplane, powered-lift, helicopter, airship, sailplane, free balloon.

[Zulu Alpha]

David,

There is talk of an EASA aerobatics rating coming in within the next 2 yrs. I don't know all the details but it will require something like the 10hr AOPA course and the latest update is that you will need 40 hrs straight and level after gaining your licence before you can get the rating.

This is if you wish to get an EASA licence endorsement in order to fly aerobatics in an EASA aerobatic aircraft. This will apply to Extras, CAPs and the certified Pitts (S2A, S1Ts and S2Cs) ie most of the training and rental aerobatics types.

However if you have a UK non expiring PPL and/or an NPPL and you are flying a non EASA aircraft ie an LAA/homebuilt type. Then you will not need any rating. Quite a lot of Pitts, lasers, Eagles etc fall into this category

There is talk of grandfather rights but you will need evidence of having done aerobatics. This can be the AOPA course or an Aerobatic competition or similar.

I do think this is unlikely to create any additional safety and will just discourage some people from taking up aerobatics. Indeed it might encourage private experimentation with aerobatics which can't be good.
The present system of self regulation has worked very well for many years. All EASA will do is increase costs and reduce safety.

[djpil]

Thanks ZA, I saw your submission online too.
We've had an aerobatic endorsement for many years so we are already leading most of the world in aerobatic bureaucracy.

[Zulu Alpha]

We've had an aerobatic endorsement for many years so we are already leading most of the world in aerobatic bureaucracy.

Is there any evidence as to whether it has or hasn't made a difference. Might be good ammunition here if further limitations appear.

[bluesky300]

as djpil would agree, there is at least one well respected school in Australia that teaches ab initio pilots aeros from day 1 and has them flying solo aeros before even a restricted licence is issued. Not only has it done so safely for decades, it has produced a wealth of solidly trained pilots as a result. 40 hours PIC time AFTER licence issue is ludicrous!

[Zulu Alpha]

40 hours PIC time AFTER licence issue is ludicrous!

Another success for EASA then.

[Trim Stab]

Will the CAA accept UAS Bulldog hours towards issue of an aerobatic rating? I see that they accept RAF and RN EFT but do not specifically mention UAS hours.

[daxwax]

I was going to ask the same question as TrimStab.
I completed my Spin/Aeros Check and then IHT so completed all the aeros components of the UAS course (mid-90s).
Thanks

[BEagle]

Unfortunately, due to the post-2005 'Marston report' dumbing-down of the UAS flying training syllabus, it was impossible to grant automatic credit for UAS graduates, due to the minimal level of aerobatic flying they now achieve. In more enlightened times that might have been possible, but sadly not today.

However para 3. of the conversion table requirements in CAP 804 Part I Section 4 Part P would still apply. Your hours should be accepted - but there would still be a requirement to demonstrate prowess to an aerobatic instructor as stated in the table.

[foxmoth]

I have had a couple of guys getting an EASA licence, I had already flown with them and knew their competence, I did a letter just stating that they had shown the right level of experience and they had the aeros endorsement issued with the licence no problem. Needs to be an aeros instructor writing the letter, but I would think most who have the appropriate experience will know an instructor who could do this.

[PaulisHome]

Will the CAA accept UAS Bulldog hours towards issue of an aerobatic rating? I see that they accept RAF and RN EFT but do not specifically mention UAS hours.

I just got one on that basis. However, I do have about 200 UAS Bulldog hours, with a PFB, so argued that that was at least equivalent to the EFT (which it is) and had log book entries for > 5 hours aeros (inc competition).

Don't know which bits pressed the right buttons - but worth a try.

Paul

[scifi]

It looks as if 8 April 2018 is the date for obtaining your Aerobatic Rating...

Aerobatic flying training | British Aerobatic Academy (http://www.britishaerobaticacademy.com/easa-aerobatic-rating)
.

[Maoraigh1]

I did 12 hours 11 years ago, at the Aerobatics School of Las Vegas, in a Zlin 242L. I was intending buying a share in a Citabria, but didn't. I may have a share in an aerobatics aircraft starting in May. (Limited to basic manoeuvres.)
I'm obviously not current, and intend getting instruction if this deal comes off.
Would it be until competent?
( Likely to be 5 hours anyway.)