separation

[ssflying]

Sorry gone a little foggy,what is the minimum dist/time gap for two succesive arrivals on the same runway,with the heavier one lets say a 747,being followed by a medium ie a320 aircraft.
Also what would be the minimum gap in case of a heavy aircraft is getting airborne and a meduim aircraft is coming in for a landing on the same runway:cool:

[Akhorahil]

5 nm separation for wake turbulence in app
2 min separation for take off between any H and any M
A TFC taking off and a tfc landing should be separated just for the rwy distance (the take off at the end of the runway when the arrival is about to land).
In Spain that´s it

[Dan Dare]

Same in Britain, but we don't need runway separation, the departing aircraft only needs to be airborne when the arriving aircraft crosses the beginning of the runway (whatever that is).

5 nm works out at about 2 minuntes. It is recognised that the arrival spacing may reduce slightly in the final stages of approach - it normally wouldn't make more than 1/2 nm difference in extremis and the time difference is unlikely to change much.

UK AIC (http://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/1166.pdf) makes interesting reading - honest!

Eurocontrol are looking at re-categarising their recommended standards here (http://wakenet.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/SpecificWorkshop_SafetyWorkshop/Day%201%20Topic%201%20-%20Treve.pdf)

[Crazy Voyager]

Two intresting documents, thanks for sharing :ok:

[ssflying]

thanks for the documents,intrestin

[Blockla]

OMG, from 3 (4) wake turbulence categories to 6... how the hell will anyone remember them...? And what about the B757; many countries currently treat it as heavy if in front, medium if following... Also think of all the computerised radar systems that would need Millions of $$$ to re-engineer the categories for the displays.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Blockla..... it's dead easy to remember them when you're working with them all day. As for computerised radar systems - chuck them in the bin and use #1 brain!!

[Akhorahil]

We now see H, M or L in the screen, only need to change the database and see A, B... Only will be a bit more difficult to remember all separations. Will us be trained? I don´t think so in Spain... will be funny to have A380 and 5 NM behind a CRJ or something like that because area radar controllers are not given any training in wake turbulence :ugh:

[blissbak]

I support you my dear spanish friend, but what kind of training do you need about wake turbulence? It's just a matter of numbers ...

[Akhorahil]

Just anything more than a paper on the mailbox. That has been the "training" to reduce area separation to 5 NM, a paper on the mailbox. According to that I can clear a C550 5 NM behind a B747... funny. 2 days ago A320 requested 1 NM off track to aviod wake turbulence of another A320 10 NM ahead, can you imagin with 5 NM and a heavy ahead??? And 440 kts of ground speed, that´s less than 45 seconds separation, will be interesting.

[Not Long Now]

En-route vortex separation in UK, if I remember correctly, is 5 miles regardless of wake categories, only approach bods need to remember different variations.

[blissbak]

Akhorahil, what if tomorrow they require a 20NM separation, would you need training? It's just a value, your radar endorsment is valid for every kind of spacing.
If you considered the required separation unsafe, that's another story.

[Akhorahil]

I only complain against the lack of any training anytime. I have no simulator for more than 3 years, no explanation of the new procedures, no explanation of the new LoA with Lisbon... and so on. About the separation I am happy at this point, when 2 Tfcs had 6 NM separation I have to do something... but no more since 22 sept. Only there will be a lot of TCAS TA, but I don´t really care.
And as an Area ATC I have no idea of what wake turbulence is, it was never explained to me since I work in Madrid.
Oh, and about english... I know lvl4 ICAO english because a royal decree (issued by our goverment) says so, never passed an exam or had any training in more than 8 years working here... :D

[BrATCO]

Blissbak,
From 8 to 20 wouldn't be a problem.
From 8 to 5, they'll have to deal with wake turbulence, which they didn't know in ACCs... I would have thought planes, pilots and passengers would have been worth just a bit more than a flyer.
What is a radar endorsement when controller has benefitted NO training at all for years ?

Not Long Now,

5 miles regardless of wake categoriesIsn't there already a separation of 6 miles in UK, between H and L ? :confused:
With the new classification, it will be 8 between A and F.

[1Charlie]

Full RWY length between ARR and DEP aircraft in Spain? That must be cumbersome at a busy aerodrome with a long RWY.

In NZ reduced separation between ARR and DEP requires the departure to be airborne and past the point where the arrival could be expected to complete their landing roll, provided the weather is good and a few other conditions. A fairly subjective separation!

[Akhorahil]

Yes 1Charlie, full rwy separation in Spain, or when the Dep tfc starts a turn. That are our written rules for separation. Only imagine a departing PA28 in a 2,5 km rwy... funny.

[blissbak]

You didn't get my point, if generally speaking you scream out about needing training, well I do agree with, if your required training is 'cause the radar separation changed for e.g. from 6 to 4 NM, that's bu----it.

[FlightPathOBN]

This table is from the FAA ATM manual....

http://operationsbasednavigation.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/tablewakesep.jpg

this is from EuroControl WakeNet tables...

http://operationsbasednavigation.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/EurocontrolWV.jpg

[Arrowhead]

Question:

Is the 2 minutes Heavy to Medium...
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearance

or something else???

What exactly IS the 2 minutes? Do peoples interpretation of the 2 minutes vary by airport? Esp helpful if anyone knows HK / China / SE Asia - thanks

[Spitoon]

Is the 2 minutes Heavy to Medium...
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearancePresumably you are talking about departing aircraft. In the UK the 2 mins is at the separation is to be achieved at the time the aircraft are airborne. This requires an understanding of the performance of aircraft that you're handling and a bit of crystal ball gazing in some cases but it's not hard to achieve.

full rwy separation in Spain, or when the Dep tfc starts a turn. That are our written rules for separation. Only imagine a departing PA28 in a 2,5 km rwy... funny.Let me guess, you're not allowed to ask/instruct an aircraft to make an early turn or a turn after passing 500ft. Or do you need more training to be able to do this?

[Akhorahil]

Maybe to a visual tfc... but not to IFRs. SIDs you know...