separation
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2011
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From: bangalore
separation
Sorry gone a little foggy,what is the minimum dist/time gap for two succesive arrivals on the same runway,with the heavier one lets say a 747,being followed by a medium ie a320 aircraft.
Also what would be the minimum gap in case of a heavy aircraft is getting airborne and a meduim aircraft is coming in for a landing on the same runway
Also what would be the minimum gap in case of a heavy aircraft is getting airborne and a meduim aircraft is coming in for a landing on the same runway
Joined: Jun 2011
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From: Spain
5 nm separation for wake turbulence in app
2 min separation for take off between any H and any M
A TFC taking off and a tfc landing should be separated just for the rwy distance (the take off at the end of the runway when the arrival is about to land).
In Spain thatīs it
2 min separation for take off between any H and any M
A TFC taking off and a tfc landing should be separated just for the rwy distance (the take off at the end of the runway when the arrival is about to land).
In Spain thatīs it
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 712
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From: SE England
Same in Britain, but we don't need runway separation, the departing aircraft only needs to be airborne when the arriving aircraft crosses the beginning of the runway (whatever that is).
5 nm works out at about 2 minuntes. It is recognised that the arrival spacing may reduce slightly in the final stages of approach - it normally wouldn't make more than 1/2 nm difference in extremis and the time difference is unlikely to change much.
UK AIC makes interesting reading - honest!
Eurocontrol are looking at re-categarising their recommended standards here
5 nm works out at about 2 minuntes. It is recognised that the arrival spacing may reduce slightly in the final stages of approach - it normally wouldn't make more than 1/2 nm difference in extremis and the time difference is unlikely to change much.
UK AIC makes interesting reading - honest!
Eurocontrol are looking at re-categarising their recommended standards here
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 311
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From: On a different Island
OMG, from 3 (4) wake turbulence categories to 6... how the hell will anyone remember them...? And what about the B757; many countries currently treat it as heavy if in front, medium if following... Also think of all the computerised radar systems that would need Millions of $$$ to re-engineer the categories for the displays.
Joined: Jun 2011
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From: Spain
We now see H, M or L in the screen, only need to change the database and see A, B... Only will be a bit more difficult to remember all separations. Will us be trained? I donīt think so in Spain... will be funny to have A380 and 5 NM behind a CRJ or something like that because area radar controllers are not given any training in wake turbulence 
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
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From: Spain
Just anything more than a paper on the mailbox. That has been the "training" to reduce area separation to 5 NM, a paper on the mailbox. According to that I can clear a C550 5 NM behind a B747... funny. 2 days ago A320 requested 1 NM off track to aviod wake turbulence of another A320 10 NM ahead, can you imagin with 5 NM and a heavy ahead??? And 440 kts of ground speed, thatīs less than 45 seconds separation, will be interesting.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 560
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From: in a TCU
Akhorahil, what if tomorrow they require a 20NM separation, would you need training? It's just a value, your radar endorsment is valid for every kind of spacing.
If you considered the required separation unsafe, that's another story.
If you considered the required separation unsafe, that's another story.
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
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From: Spain
I only complain against the lack of any training anytime. I have no simulator for more than 3 years, no explanation of the new procedures, no explanation of the new LoA with Lisbon... and so on. About the separation I am happy at this point, when 2 Tfcs had 6 NM separation I have to do something... but no more since 22 sept. Only there will be a lot of TCAS TA, but I donīt really care.
And as an Area ATC I have no idea of what wake turbulence is, it was never explained to me since I work in Madrid.
Oh, and about english... I know lvl4 ICAO english because a royal decree (issued by our goverment) says so, never passed an exam or had any training in more than 8 years working here...
And as an Area ATC I have no idea of what wake turbulence is, it was never explained to me since I work in Madrid.
Oh, and about english... I know lvl4 ICAO english because a royal decree (issued by our goverment) says so, never passed an exam or had any training in more than 8 years working here...
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 250
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From: France
Blissbak,
From 8 to 20 wouldn't be a problem.
From 8 to 5, they'll have to deal with wake turbulence, which they didn't know in ACCs... I would have thought planes, pilots and passengers would have been worth just a bit more than a flyer.
What is a radar endorsement when controller has benefitted NO training at all for years ?
Not Long Now,
Isn't there already a separation of 6 miles in UK, between H and L ? 
With the new classification, it will be 8 between A and F.
From 8 to 20 wouldn't be a problem.
From 8 to 5, they'll have to deal with wake turbulence, which they didn't know in ACCs... I would have thought planes, pilots and passengers would have been worth just a bit more than a flyer.
What is a radar endorsement when controller has benefitted NO training at all for years ?
Not Long Now,
5 miles regardless of wake categories
With the new classification, it will be 8 between A and F.
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 154
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From: at the computer
Full RWY length between ARR and DEP aircraft in Spain? That must be cumbersome at a busy aerodrome with a long RWY.
In NZ reduced separation between ARR and DEP requires the departure to be airborne and past the point where the arrival could be expected to complete their landing roll, provided the weather is good and a few other conditions. A fairly subjective separation!
In NZ reduced separation between ARR and DEP requires the departure to be airborne and past the point where the arrival could be expected to complete their landing roll, provided the weather is good and a few other conditions. A fairly subjective separation!
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 560
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From: in a TCU
You didn't get my point, if generally speaking you scream out about needing training, well I do agree with, if your required training is 'cause the radar separation changed for e.g. from 6 to 4 NM, that's bu----it.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 290
Likes: 9
From: Europe
Question:
Is the 2 minutes Heavy to Medium...
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearance
or something else???
What exactly IS the 2 minutes? Do peoples interpretation of the 2 minutes vary by airport? Esp helpful if anyone knows HK / China / SE Asia - thanks
Is the 2 minutes Heavy to Medium...
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearance
or something else???
What exactly IS the 2 minutes? Do peoples interpretation of the 2 minutes vary by airport? Esp helpful if anyone knows HK / China / SE Asia - thanks
Guest
Posts: n/a
Is the 2 minutes Heavy to Medium...
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearance
- Rotation to clearance
- Acceleration to clearance
Originally Posted by Akhorahil
full rwy separation in Spain, or when the Dep tfc starts a turn. That are our written rules for separation. Only imagine a departing PA28 in a 2,5 km rwy... funny.