Letting my passenger land the aircraft?

[Mike Stamp]

Hi I have a young friend who is days from sitting her skills test in the Cessna 152 and she is interested in converting to the PA28 after she gets her PPL so I said I would take her up for a flight with me and let her fly it to see if she likes it. I'm just wondering if I would get in trouble for letting her land the aircraft?

It's not like she's inexperienced she has about 70 hours now and her instructor always says how quickly she picks ups everything and he had her landing on her 4th lesson in. Also we have about 1000m of runway length.

Mike

[Pilot DAR]

Quick answer: If you are not an instructor, you cannot allow a non licensed pilot to fly an aircraft under your authority.

If there is no unfavourable outcome in the flight, who knows what happened, and who did what (aside from one of you talking later), so it is a non event. Other than if the plane gets bent, it's on your record, not your passenger's. If you are flying an aircraft you do not own, you are morally obligated to operate the aircraft as the owner expects you are, which certainly would not include letting the passenger land it. Anything goes wrong, the insurance could walk, and you could be paying out of pocket.

Are you competent to quickly fix a landing which has gone awry? Do you want the risk?

[Pace]

Apart from whats been said above also consider how much your 70 hr student pilot has flown from the right seat?

My guess is none and it is very different flying and landing from the right.
OK people do it especially more experienced pilots who feel they can recover a situation which has gone bad but you are opening a can of worms if the unthinkable happens.

That even includes a licenced pilot landing from the right. Is he approved on the insurance? does he have the required hours? does his licence cover that particular aircraft?

As the official Captain the buck stops with you so unless you are prepared to accept the crash as yours ( possible fraud charges if anyone finds out) Your taking a risk.

As with most things everything is fine while its fine but its when something goes wrong that the tiniest clause will be a let out for the insurance so dont even consider a licenced pilot unless you are sure they meet all the requirements never mind an unlicenced one.
Its your call, your risk!

Pace

[Mike Stamp]

Thanks for the replies, so what I'm getting from this is that it's all okay aslong as nothing goes wrong or anybody finds out.

In reply to Pace saying about experienced pilots, I have about 2000 hours on the PA28 alone.

Mike

[Pace]

Thanks for the replies, so what I'm getting from this is that it's all okay aslong as nothing goes wrong or anybody finds out.

Mike obviously if nothing goes wrong and nobody finds out yes its all ok as you have got away with it that time.
Pilots do things like that :E

As long as you are prepared to take the risk and suffer the consequences if something does go wrong its your shot but its not okay as you put it from a legal point of view.

Noticed for 2000 hrs in a PA28 alone you have only just joined pprune????? always makes me suspicious.

For someone who has 2000 hrs you already know the answer so why the question which gets you to join PPRUNE to answer? ;)

Pace

[McGoonagall]

Apart from the above mentioned, why encourage a student who is ready to sit her test in a high wing Cessna occupying the LHS to land a low wing Piper from the RHS? It makes no sense. Differently positioned taps and switches, trim wheel in another place, electric fuel pump etc etc...

Definitely a retrograde step with regards to her training. After the test and license issue, fill your boots.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I assume from the phrase "skill test" combined with fluent English, that this is a UK question. In which case, legally speaking, you're wrong DAR. The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.

However, now why it's not a good idea anyhow:

(1) As a non-instructor, you are not trained to correct a bad landing, or brief a good one. 1000m of runway won't stop them landing it on the nosewheel.

(2) Unless it's your own aeroplane, it's probably against club rules.

(3) About to take their skill test at 70 hrs, they probably aren't quickly picking everything up and getting it right first time !

(4) You may well have bad habits of your own, that you'll be doing no favours by exposing them to just before their skill test.


I'd suggest leaving it until after they have their PPL, and not doing landings, which is the manoeuvre with the single greatest potential to break an aeroplane if mishandled and best left to an instructor to take them through.

G

N.B. Who on earth has 2,000hrs in PA28s without being a flying instructor anyhow?

[airpolice]

Genghis:

In which case, legally speaking, you're wrong DAR. The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.



Would you care to expand on the legality of this?

[jollyrog]

Please confirm you're not a member of my group.

[Mike Stamp]

In reply to Pace I joined pprune after asking other pilots I knew this question and they didn't know the answer so they said to ask on here.

In reply to Genghis yes I currently fly in the UK, she took so long in getting to her test because she progressed well in the practical side but not so much with doing the exams and was ready to do the skills test at 53 hours but only had air law, nav and the human performance exams passed. But it's interesting in what you say about it being under my authority to let them land but the blame still be with me. I will speak with the club owner tomorrow and see what he says about letting me allow her to land the aircraft.

Mike

[Pilot DAR]

For someone who has 2000 hrs you already know the answer so why the question which gets you to join PPRuNe to answer?

Yes, that occured to me as well!

The pilot in command remains fully responsible for the flight and its consequences, but is well within their rights to allow an unqualified pilot to handle the controls, including through a landing.


Hmmm, different than Canada. I was spoken stearnly to by Transport Canada enforcement, when they suspected that, as a 3000 hour (with 150 hours on type) private pilot at the time, I sat right seat as PIC (Manual does not state a required seat for PIC), and allowed the owner (hundreds of hours on type, who had lost his medical temporarily), to fly his C 182 RG as he wished. I was told that as a non instructor, it was prohibited that I allow another person to fly the aircraft at all if I'm PIC.

I told them they could not prove a thing. While pretending they could do something, they did nothing....

Had we bent the plane.... very different story.

[Mike Stamp]

Jollyrog it's not a group shared pa28 it's a club trainer pa28

I think though taken in account what you have all said I will just let them do some general handlin i.e turns and straight and level and leave the rest to myself

Mike

[Genghis the Engineer]

Genghis:




Would you care to expand on the legality of this?

Do I need to? So far as I know, unless you can prove otherwise, there is nothing in the ANO or any subsidiary regulations that prohibit an unqualified passenger handling the controls at any point in a flight.

Maybe one point - if an insurer prohibit it, then the flight in being uninsured is then illegal.

It's still not very clever, but not so far as I know absolutely illegal.

G

[Pace]

Mike

Thanks for that info and hope you post here more. Frankly I would not even ask the question just go do it.

There is no way the CFI could officially approve of a student being in command of an aircraft she doesnt meet the insurance requirements to fly or the licencing requirements to fly.

So if you want to do it dont tell anyone! your risk!!!

I think though taken in account what you have all said I will just let them do some general handlin i.e turns and straight and level and leave the rest to myself

To be fair the above is just as illegal as letting her land but less risky?

Pace

[The500man]

In a group aircraft the ops manual may specify that the PIC has to be in the left seat, so there is no argument who's fault it is/ who was PIC if something goes wrong. Presumably the insurer would not be too interested if they were approached by a fellow with his hands out claiming to be PIC while flying from the right seat. I don't know what a club aircraft ops manual will have in it, but I'd definitely look there first before doing anything else.

[mad_jock]

Letting someone else land isn't illegal and neither is them having a pole in flight either. Or for that matter PIC flying in the RHS

As for issurance they may or may not be fine with it. Two folk that i did safety pilot courses for were both allowed to land the aircraft with a licensed PPL in the LHS. In fact the insurer was more than happy for them to keep their skills up. We had a fax with in 10 mins confirming the phone call as well. One was in a club aircraft the other was a private.

NOw this is the current situation after EASA things may change.

To note this is only for G reg aircraft in UK airspace. germany France etc have different interpratations of the rules.

[Pace]

Mad Jock

I bow to you and Genghis as I never knew that (not kidding)

NOw this is the current situation after EASA things may change.

The way Europe seems to be going into meltdown I question the word AFTER EASA

Pace

[Pull what]

Nothing in ANO that prevents you from giving instruction but as mentioned there may well be in the Pilots Order Book if your club has one!

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is no way the CFI could officially approve of a student being in command of an aircraft she doesnt meet the insurance requirements to fly or the licencing requirements to fly.


Just being very pedantic for a moment - there are some very significant differences between being "in control", "in command" and "handling the controls".

G

[mad_jock]

There is a lot of ****e and urban myth about this stuff in the UK. And from folk that appear to well versed in the rules.

Everything is setup that the PIC is the PIC. Unless there is something from the manufacturer which locks down the PIC seat its pretty much all on the PIC's shoulders to justify their actions if anything goes wrong which is the crunch of it.

Insurance companys seem actually very happy with none standard requests. Its seems the simple fact that you asked means you are sensible enough to realise what you want to do is not normal. But as there are not a huge amounts of accidents with none PPL's landing with a none instructor they don't care.

Before then NPPL came along there were quite a few groups that had medical grounded pilots flying with other group members in the LHS. They were even named on the insurance policy. Quite bizarre in fact one I knew was one of the listed check pilots for the group, he hadn't been fit for a class 2 for 5 years.

Now nothing that has been said though means that a flying school or group can't state in thier flying order manual that there are different rules for thier school/ group aircraft. If they do have a restriction you must abide by it.

[Pace]

If they do have a restriction you must abide by it

Just a question ? If you dont abide by it what are the consequences???

Pace

[Genghis the Engineer]

Just a question ? If you dont abide by it what are the consequences???

Pace

Much the same as if at work you chose to disregard your company's operations manual I'd have thought.

Depending upon severity of the offence and who catches you, somewhere on a scale between a dirty look and being strung up by the balls by the Chief Pilot.

If you disregard the FOB in a flying club and in doing so bend an aeroplane, there's a fair risk of having to pay for all the damage yourself, rather than the insurance doing so.

G

[cavortingcheetah]

I daresay she could and would sue you for at least 2,000 hours worth of PA28 time if she even so much as bent a pinkie under the rudder pedal on a landing if you'd let her have one. Of course if you'd let her try and she went farming and minced up a few picnickers (or however you spell the irritating things) you might end up drawing on your pension fund earlier than you'd planned?

[jxc]

I would say it is just not worth the hassle but there again how young is she ?
Is there a motive! :D

[mixture]

Do I need to? So far as I know, unless you can prove otherwise, there is nothing in the ANO or any subsidiary regulations that prohibit an unqualified passenger handling the controls at any point in a flight.

Part 6, 50 (1) :

Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.


I would suggest handling controls is acting as a member of flight crew, would you not ?

Furthermore :

'Pilot in command' means a person who for the time being is in charge of the piloting of an aircraft without being under the direction of any other pilot in the aircraft

(my bold)

So since your person in the RHS is a student and you're presumably not qualified to act as instructor (or permitted to act as one in the given aircraft) , there's only ever going to be one PIC and that's you.

[madlandrover]

Well, somebody doesn't know the rules, because she only needed to pass Air Law to go solo.

Not even that - she only needed a current medical (NPPL Declaration, Class 1 or 2 CAA) to go solo. She would need a touch more to sit the skills test though.

[Crash one]

I haven't read it so could you clarify articles 51 to 60?

Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.

[mixture]

Would be too wordy to reproduce here, but the headers summarise what they concern quite nicely :

51 :
Exception to act as flight radiotelephony operator
52:
Exception for solo flying training
53:
Exception for dual flying training
54:
Exception for gyroplanes at night
55:
Exception for balloons
56:
Exception for pilot undergoing training or tests
57:
Exception for navigators and flight engineers
58:
Exception for members of HM Forces
59:
Exceptions for gliders
60:
Exception where CAA permission granted


In terms of the training exception, as you might expect, it mandates appropriate ratings :

the person acts in accordance with instructions given by another person holding a pilot's licence granted under this Order or a JAA licence, in each case being a licence which includes a flight instructor rating, a flying instructor's rating or an assistant flying instructor's rating entitling that other person to give instruction in flying the type of aircraft being flown; and


Full text of ANO can be found here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf)

[Heliport]

So since your person in the RHS is a student and you're presumably not qualified to act as instructor (or permitted to act as one in the given aircraft) , there's only ever going to be one PIC and that's you.

That is Genghis's point.

In terms of the training exception ....
Is allowing a pax to handle the controls training? :confused:


Mike Stamp I will speak with the club owner tomorrow and see what he says about letting me allow her to land the aircraft.
I'll be interested to know what he says if you put him on the spot by asking him for permission. ;)

[mad_jock]

I would suggest handling controls is acting as a member of flight crew, would you not ?


This is where different country's have different views.

What defines flight crew required is in the aircraft speks. Mostly these days its just pilots but in the old days it was Navigator, radio operator, flight engineer and of course the pilots.

Of course for a light aircraft it just one pilot the PIC.

There is nothing to state that the flight crew needs to be the one handling the controls. Just that they have to be at a functional set during flight.

You can't for example like some have been done doing, be PIC in the rear seat of a four seater.

[Pace]

Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.

Mad Jock

How does a student unlicenced pilot hold an appropriate licence granted to fly say a Seneca twin?
For a student to land an aeroplane I would think they are without doubt acting as a flight crew and as such have to hold an appropriate licence.
A navigator as a flight crew from days past would not hold appropriate licences to handle the aircraft.
So not so sure you are right now?

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

I agree with mad-jock.

As to the sense i get increadingly fed up with our pc attitude.

Surely we are adults, qualified pilots, qualified to excercise sound judgement or is that also to be taken from us? With 2,000 hours you should know when and how to salvage an approach when and to what extent you are happy to allow the approach to continue and when to intervene - its really not rocket science. With a few hundred hours its probably a different matter.

Now if its not your aircraft you have a resposibility to the owners and you ask the question of them, but, were it me, i would not be concerned as long as i was happy with your flying skills.

[flybymike]

Ghengis and MJ are right. Passenger handling is perfectly legal and always has been. One of my log books even has an entry column for "passenger flying."
As MJ points out many "wifies" do "pinchhitter" courses without ever qualifying which can only be a good thing (in more ways than one)

[Neptunus Rex]

Start your training as a Flying Instructor, then you will understand what a stupid idea it is.

[Robert Jan]

I often let my 14 year old son fly from the RHS. He has done many greasers in his time, with me lightly at standby on the controls.
:ok:

I learned to fly from the RHS when I was 11 years young :}

[Genghis the Engineer]

I've helped out with air scout camps where I've let many lads have a go at flying, and a few have actually done pretty good landings.

My aeroplane, with their parents and leaders permission, and full knowledge of the flying club at the airfield.


A question for those who think this is or should be illegal -what's the difference (legally, we can all agree I think about the need to take great care with safety I think) - what's the difference between asking a passenger to change a transponder code or altimeter subscale setting, and letting them handle the yoke and rudder?

G

[mixture]

How does a student unlicenced pilot hold an appropriate licence granted to fly say a Seneca twin?

Because there is a type rated pilot with an instructor rating sitting in the right hand seat ! :ugh::ugh:

See 53: Exception for dual flying training
(or 52 Exception for solo flying training)

[mixture]

What defines flight crew required is in the aircraft speks.


Actually, no. It's in the ANO.

'Flight crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radiotelephony operator of the aircraft;


I would say letting someone land the aircraft is more than "handling the controls" (i.e. letting them do a few turns and climbs at cruise altitude). Doing the approach and landing is very much piloting (what's that old saying .... any monkey can fly an aircraft but only a pilot can land it).

[mad_jock]

I am a flying instructor and would have concerns about some people doing it with others I wouldn't have an issue.

Then there is the magic day when my FI runs out. Do I magically over night loose the ability to allow some else to land while I am watching safely or for that matter fly in the RHS. In fact I haven't flown in the LHS of a SEP for getting on for 7 years now. I am sure that some schools of thought would require that I do some training before I can fly in the LHS again.

Its funny how the handling the controls causes great discussion but the none qualified pax doing the Navigation is never moaned about. Which in my view is by far the most important job while going from A to B.

We have 2 distinct areas here there is the giving a shot while at altitude which happens all the time, in fact its recommended if the pax is feeling air sick. And the landing of the aircraft/areo's/stalling/steep turns etc. Which still goes on but its not talked about as much but still legal.

There is under commercial ops restrictions on who can manipulate the controls but none in private ops.

There is a list of dutys in the ANO for the PIC, it doesn't include actually flying the machine.

The aircraft does define what flight crew you require onboard and its different depending on its certification sometime different depending on the reg.. Most POM state that one member of crew has to be at the flying controls at all times and for take off and landing all flight crew members must be at their assign stations.

[Pace]

'Flight crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radiotelephony operator of the aircraft;

Mixture

I have actually changed camps again back to Ghengis and Mad Jock!

Flight crew is in relation to members of a crew on an aircraft.
A PA28 does not have a crew but is single pilot.
A light jet requires a type rating and two crew so the second pilot has to have a legal rating.
There cannot be a crew on a PA28, two pilots cannot log the hours so the aircraft is not acknowledged by the authorities as being a crewed aircraft.

Subject to the exceptions set out in articles 51 to 60, a person must not act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under this Order.

Again the above refers to crew a PA28 cannot have a crew only a single pilot!


Ok I have been converted to the fact that I can legally allow a non pilot to land an aircraft.
Still dont know what the insurance would say as you sit there on the nose with no gear and tell them you were letting your non pilot girlfriend have an attempt at landing :E

Pace

[Final 3 Greens]

I have to say I am deeply disturbed by the lack of knowledge of some of the posters.

MJ and Ghengis have made the point about PIC well enough, but as a further thought, at 70 hours and nearly taking the skills test, presumably the lady has landed an aeroplane SOLO quite a number of times.

Whether allowing her to land a different type without an instructor present is sensible (I tend to think not), or whether it is covered by insurance, it is not nearly as high risk as allowing someone with zero experience to do so.

This is why we are PIC qualified, to make judgments.

[mad_jock]

thats the crux PACE the insurance. And from experence they are fine with it as long as you tell them before the event.

A slight correction though you can have a crew on a PA28.

Student and instructor are counted as crew.

This allows the instructor to be over 90 days for 3 TO and Landings and the night requirement if they don't have an IR because the student isn't counted as PAX.

But if you say took a 4 seater up for a TF you couldn't have anyone in the back.

And just to make sure this is only valid for G reg in UK airspace. Any other reg has to comply with the most restrictive rules of both the registration state and the UK. So if say the FAR's don't let you do it in a N reg and its in UK air space that doesn't mean you can follow the information given.

[FleetFlyer]

I encourage all my passengers to have a pole around at altitude, and a couple of them have even flown circuits with a go around at 100' rather than landing it. I would certainly consider coaching a passenger through a landing if I felt the passenger was good enough.
All this though is 'on my head' as at no point am I not the commander of the aircraft. I am responsible for the actions of whoever is handling the aeroplane so treat the situation with the appropriate gravity.

In response to the original post, I would have no problem with letting a passenger who is on the verge of qualifying land a PA28 if the conditions were not particularly challenging (wind/runway length/busy circuit paermitting). Its also not that challenging to swap seats or high to low wing like some posters have suggested. A few demo landings should be all the passenger needs to appreciate the new 'picture'.

There does appear to be a little confusion between what 'Pilot in command' and 'person handling the controls' means. If you are the PIC when you take off, at no point does your passenger become PIC even if you give them control for the entire flight.