Is this package/deal any good?

[theapplepie]

I am interested in getting my PPL at Biggin Hill. I've done 5 hours with EFG flying school (the introductory package) and I wish to continue to get my PPL. The thing is I can't be bothered to change clubs so I was wondering if their instalment package is any good? I speak of the C152 btw, not the PA28.

Private Pilots Licence | Courses - EFG Flying School - . (http://www.flyefg.co.uk/courses/private-pilots-licence.php)

I phoned them up and it's actually £2000 per instalment now, so ignore the prices on the site.

Can I ask why the first three instalments have less hours yet are same price? is it some kind of scheme to get me to stay and finish the other instalments?

Would appreciate some guidance!

Another thing I don't understand is, why is 10 hours lower price (at £1450) than the instalment of 8 hours?? Nothing makes any sense to me!! :(

Rates | Courses - EFG Flying School - . (http://www.flyefg.co.uk/courses/rates.php)

Also how does it compare to this?

Surrey&Kent Flying Club - Biggin Hill (http://www.sandk.flyer.co.uk/jarppl.htm)

Additionally if anyone could share recent experiences with learning at EFG I would be very grateful.

[cirrusdancer]

The higher initial payments are so the club gets more money off you up front - helps their cash flow and has nothing to do with the actual hours flown. I don't know the figures but I understand a lot of students give up or postpone their training so getting as much dosh off you early on works in the school's favour.

I guess the 10 hours for £1450 is solo as it's described as 'hours building' which may go a little way to explain the difference.

General advise is not to pay up front, which will probably be repeated on this thread any time now.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Suggest you read all the threads on flying schools going bust and taking their pupils' money with them, and the oft-repeated advice here, which some on those threads might have done better to heed, which is

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

Unless you do so by some means which guarantees your money back if the school goes bust.

[gasax]

30 seconds with the search function should convince you - never, ever, ever pay anything up front to any flying club. Most have the financial stability of a house of cards. So remember never, never, never pay up front for anything to any flying club!!!!

[The500man]

I learnt to fly at EFG and it's a nice place to fly. It isn't cheap but you get what you pay for. I don't know if Corina is still there? She was a very pleasant instructor, though I did most of my training with Paul, who was excellent.

I know most people will keep banging on about not paying up front, but as you can see from the instalment option, you will pay a fair bit more if you go down that route. The idea of the 5 hour pack, that you have done is to give students an intoduction so they can see if they want to go on to do the full course or not. If you are certain about continuing you will more than likely be better off paying for the whole course on a credit card (check with your card provider if you could get a full refund if the school goes under).

To be honest I don't think you need to worry about EFG going under since it's owned by the same family that owns the engineering company at Biggin, which also provides training aircraft to quite a few schools in the area. There's also no shortage of students there. Just be mindful that you are taking a risk paying upfront, but as I say I think it's a very small one in this case.

One thing I will add. Landing and circuit fees at Biggin are not cheap. Although some landings and circuits are included in the PPL package, you will likely need more. So bare in mind if you do buy the full course that you may well have to pay more later. Also most people take longer than 45 hours. So bare that in mind also when you work out your flying budget.

Good luck!

[theapplepie]

Thanks a lot for all the replies

How much more on average would it cost me if I did it on a per hour basis though?

Yeah I had an instructor at EFG tell me about schools going bust, they also said it's ok if I pay by credit card so that is what I am planning to do.

Do you think it's possible for me to get the PPL package in one payment and then stretch that to more than a year by just buying another years membership? Would they allow me to do this? I can't do it within a year because 1. the weather doesn't seem to be very reliable this summer and 2. i go to university away from home.

I understand biggin hill is expensive but it's the only airport reasonably near where I live (still a 45 minute drive though), and I can't think of any other airport with a hard runway.

Hmm I don't know any Corina, or a Paul, probably my ignorance, when did you last fly at EFG? I don't remember seeing a female instructor there at all. Was Anoop the manager when you were there?

[The500man]

Yes Anoop was the manager when I was training there. It's his family that owns EFG. In terms of flying over more than one year, you should be fine. I did just that and just paid another years membership. It's been around 14 months since I last flew there, so maybe the instructors have changed.

You could ask about just paying for each lesson as you fly them. It would probably cost quite a bit more. If you look at the dual 1 hour training rate and multiply it by 45 you've pretty much already reached the full course price without taking into consideration any circuits/ landings or the exam/ membership fees. On the plus side you won't have to pay any interest on credit or finance. You'll need to have a think and then sit down with a calculator and work out what will suit you best.

[Deeday]

Will people here please stop patronising newcomers with that sort of red capitals shouting?

30 seconds with the search function should convince you - never, ever, ever pay anything up front to any flying club.Do you realise how useless that piece of advice is? By the same logic, never, ever go flying on a light aircraft. A 30-second search on this forum will show you how many people have killed themselves that way.

What the OP would find useful is getting an idea of what the risk is, or in plain English: how many people lose their money in schools gone bust vs. how many people pay upfront and get their licence. Knowing only half of the picture is pretty much useless.

Oh and yes, I did pay upfront, much more than two grand; got my licence and made savings in the region of half a grand. I'm glad I didn't heed the invaluable advice that you find in this sort of threads.

[A and C]

you are quite right, it is about risk management, after getting on for forty years in the business and seeing more flying clubs go bust than I like to remember I can say that paying up front is not worth the risk.

So for those of you with poor eyesight.

Don't pay up front it is not worth the risk

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How much more on average would it cost me if I did it on a per hour basis though?
Why is the school trying to borrow money from you with such an attractive rate?

Just think about it.

There is only one conceivable possible answer.

Because they have already tried to borrow from the bank at a lower rate and been told to piss off.

You're better at judging financial risk than the banks, are you?

If so, well done. If not, do not pay up front.

[jxc]

Not sure if it has been mentioned enough times


Don't pay up front you have been warned :=

[The500man]

Why is the school trying to borrow money from you with such an attractive rate?


This is not the reason! PPL packages are fiercely competitive and include different things, newcomers generally don't know which bits are important, so they go by price and not by what is included. This is why most packages don't include a realistic number of circuits/ landings or any at all. Obviously paid in full courses still make money for the school, they are not taking out a loan from you because the bank said no! Maybe there are some schools/ clubs that would take your money knowing that they are on the brink of collapse, but lets differentiate between those schools/ clubs and the decent schools/ clubs.

I could say more but I don't see the point. You guys are not giving bad advice saying don't pay upfront, but you do need to take into consideration the people and organisation that the Op is dealing with. If you know nothing about them/ it then please shut up because you are simply embarrassing yourselves regurgitating the same single piece of advice. It was posted once in big red letters and reasonably so, but now it is simply retarded. Stop pretentending to know something you don't and pass it off as good advice to someone that wants to know.

[gasax]

A fool and his/her money are easily parted. The average 'life span' of a flying club is no more than a couple of years. The return on capital is barely measurable, one large bill and they are bust!

Never ever ever pay up front. It they are solvent they do not need the money before the costs are incurred. If they are discounting the price - which barely covers their costs anyhow - why? Because they are a charitable organisation?

So for those hard of comprehension - never ever pay up front!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It was posted once in big red letters and reasonably so, but now it is simply retarded.
No, you are simply wrong.

The most recent thread about a school going bust and losing the punters their money was started long after it was first "posted once in big red letters", which was years ago now. It does need repeating from time to time, and the fact that people lost money when that most recent school went bust is clear evidence that it isn't repeated in big red letters often enough.

[IanPZ]

Gasax, is that really a statistic, 2 years? It's just that whilst I know flying schools do go bust, all the ones near me have been running for probably 10 years or more (in one case, at least 20). That must mean that there are schools out there that only last a few weeks at most, to give a 2 year average.

Is it really that bad? I had no idea.

[Whirlygig]

To be honest I don't think you need to worry about EFG going underAnd a year ago, I would have said the same about Sterling Helicopters but look where they are now.

Cheers

Whirls

[MFC_Fly]

2. i go to university away from home.
Then why not save yourself a lot of money and join your affiliated University Air Squadron?

You will be taught to fly by some bloody good instructors for free, meet lots of like-minded students to have a lot of fun with, adventure training opportunities and you even get paid for each day you attend plus travel costs, with no obligation to 'join up' on graduation.

see RAF Cranwell - University Air Squadrons (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcranwell/aboutus/uas.cfm) :ok:

[The500man]

The most recent thread about a school going bust and losing the punters their money was started long after it was first "posted once in big red letters", which was years ago now. It does need repeating from time to time, and the fact that people lost money when that most recent school went bust is clear evidence that it isn't repeated in big red letters often enough

Repeating in parrot fashion the same piece of advice, aimed at the same person, in one thread, is too much. Sorry but I'm not wrong about that.

The fact is not everyone visits PPRuNe before making decisions about spending money on flying, so your clear evidence that "do not pay upfront" isn't repeated often enough here is looking somewhat murky. It's been mentioned too much now in this thread.

[mad_jock]

IanPZ if you knew the state of the profit margins and flying schools and how quickly they can change you would see why its so easy for them to go under so quickly from what you thought was a secure position.

All it takes is to miss a price increase on a fuel increase and they can be loosing 10 quid per hour.

An engine needs replacing before its TBO thats a percentage of 18k gone.

The CAA changes the goal posts and you inccure additional fees.


By selling hours in advance your actually hedging your costs for that hour of flying. Fuel costs can and do jump in price, this EASA stuff may cause a huge increase in fixed costs and also maint costs. Most school owners are not savy enough to understand this or even consider this. What to them means an increase in cash flow and a cheap loan can turn into a a very expensive and possibly bankrupting exercise in the space of a couple of weeks.

There are many 10 year plus schools gone under in the last few years.

And thats not even allowing for someone getting fed up with the whole game and asset stripping before shutting up shop because you can get more money that way than selling it as a going concern.

the not paying up front point needs repeating many times because people are still loosing money doing it. When people stop loosing money it shall stop being repeated. If the schools were forced to use an escrow? (I think thats the name for it) or had similar protection to pax travelling for money payed up front we wouldn't have an excuse to keep on repeating it.

[Whirlygig]

For every person who says, "Weigh up the risk and pay in advance if it saves you dosh", there should be at least three peoplpe who countermand that point by stating, "Do not pay upfront". Any person who questions the wisdom of paying in advance needs to appreciate that the concensus of opinion is "don't". This is NOT the place for balanced argument.

As for assessing risk .... how many people really have access to credit reports, credit ratings and business accounts as well as knowing how to interpret them. I do, and that's what I did when, in 2003, I paid £15,000 for Sterling Helicopters in advance for a full time PPL(H). Firstly, at that time, they owned outright all the helicopters so the total asset base was healthy. Their Dun and Bradstreet rating was A1. They had a positive cash balance (no overdraft). My exposure to risk would have been over a 6 week period. I accepted that risk and I came out better off. Sterling has now got the liquidators in. And this was an operator who had existed for 25 years, ran police, air ambulance, pipeline, charter and training.

So, unless someone knows what they are doing in obtaining and interpreting such financial information, I would say that they should not rely on marketing blurb, or how busy a school is, or how plush the crew room. If you don't know whether the aircraft are mortgaged to the hilt for example, how do know the business's financial stability.

I've just tried to have a look at D&B for EFG Flying School ... can't find them. Are they a limited company? If they are, they do not advertise their company number on their website (which they should do). If they are an unincorporated business, then there is even more risk in giving them money in advance.

Cheers

Whirls

[The500man]

I've just tried to have a look at D&B for EFG Flying School ... can't find them. Are they a limited company?


They are part of the Falcon Flying Group Ltd.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

how many people really have access to credit reports, credit ratings and business accounts
Anyone can do that, just sign up to the right web sites and pay them some money. Provided you don't mind information that could easily be eighteen months out of date, which is, erm, quite a long time, really.
as well as knowing how to interpret them
That's another matter. Every now and then I check on a client and the credit advice is usually along the lines of "we suggest you do not lend these people more than [about two weeks' billings]". So I ignore this and invoice monthly anyway, and only once lost a couple of hundred quid.

[Whirlygig]

Anyone can do that, just sign up to the right web sites and pay them some money. Provided you don't mind information that could easily be eighteen months out of date, which is, erm, quite a long time, really.True but some credit reference agencies operate a scheme whereby other subscribers can give feedback on a business's real payment history plus they detail up to date information on CCJs etc.

I paid in advance and now think, "There but for the grace of God ...." :\ I wouldn't do it again.

Cheers

Whirls

[A and C]

As said above the CAA or EASA can move the goalposts at will, the latest example is the new maintenance program that will have to be written for and approved for each aircraft currently using LAMP.

At the moment the best guess is that it will cost about £400 per aircraft, I know that this is not a lot in the big picture but just another example of increasing costs that a flying club can't control.

[jollyrog]

If you give me £2,000, I'll let you fly my PA28 at £1/hour. Your £2,000 should keep you going for a while, eh?

Cash please, if you're interested.

[IanPZ]

MadJock, thanks for that. I am stunned that the margins would be so tiny, but I bow to far superior knowledge. It occurs to me that this is obviously a bit of a tightrope. If flying schools charged in line with a standard business model and the expected target profit margins, then they would lose clients due to cost.

Alternatively, if the charge a price that the market will bear, it may be that the business is just not viable.

I know its a huge difference, but I work in a business that provides space for IT systems, and although it seems unrelated, our biggest risk is the cost of electricity going up, after having agreed a cost with a client. We have an allowance to increase the cost of our service if we need to.

It seems that the best way for a flying school to charge up front, but cover themselves, is to separate out the fuel costs (wet) from the lesson costs. Maybe I am over-generous, but I accept that my instructor provides a service, and should get a fair wage for it. If they are willing to agree to a "bulk" discount for me buying multiple lessons up front, then I see no reason why I would expect fuel to be charged at anything other than the going rate.

All that said, my instructor was actually the person who advised me to pay by the lesson, if for no other reason than it tended to motivate people more. Paying up front, its easy (well, relatively) to forget the money in relation to the flying. Seeing the money go down in the account I have for flying pushes me to try harder, to make sure i get better quicker than the money runs out.

Or am I just incredibly naive?

Thanks...IPZ

[theapplepie]

For those who insist I don't pay upfront, what would you suggest otherwise? Wouldn't doing it by the lesson be around £2000 more expensive in the end?

I'm truly stuck for what to do because I'll be away at university for most of the year and I'd like to minimise the cost by as much as possible.

Is there a balance between the two I can reach?

I'd really rather not join the university air squadron because I used to be a member of the ATC and I despised it. It had absolutely nothing to do with flying whatsoever, it just consisted of endless drills and marching. Not my thing :P

[MFC_Fly]

I'd really rather not join the university air squadron because I used to be a member of the ATC and I despised it. It had absolutely nothing to do with flying whatsoever, it just consisted of endless drills and marching. Not my thing :P Your call mate, but I'd strongly advise chatting to some of the other studes that are UAS members before dismissing it - UAS's are nothing like the ATC. However, your choice and your money (all headed outbound and nothing headed inbound!) :ooh:

[mad_jock]

theapplepie it depends what you are going to do.

If say you were going to buy a 10hr block then fly it in 5 days to me personally thats acceptable. But to buy one and then fly every Saturday for 10 weeks is unacceptable risk, its all a matter of time scale. Although in the past there have been people pay up one day to fly the next and turn up to the school being closed (worst I heard was a commercial student who handed over 35k and the school shut its door two days later)

Basically if you can't afford to loose the money don't do it.

IanPZ I have in the past suggested your method of costing, having a dry rate with a variable fuel rate on the day. Nobody has gone for it due to admin burden. It also screws up trial lessons which have a pretty huge markup over normal lessons to begin with. But punters want to gift them and you can't really have a surcharge when they turn up. And trial lessons are a huge part of most schools. I may be wrong but I believe Highland Flying school had something like 40k's worth of trial flights still valid when it went bust.

[IanPZ]

Fair comment. Madjock. Shame though, really.

Theapplepie. How to pay up front? Well, the only thing you will see people advising is that you use a credit card. As long as the spend is over £100, and under £30,000 (I think) then they are legally involved in the transaction, and you have a claim against them if things go wrong.

That doesn't mean that they will guarantee to refund any lost amount, and there are lots of extra rules around it. However, I have found in general that if you use a reputable credit (not debit) card company, then they will pay you back for your loss, and then deal with the claim against the business.

To stand a chance, you need to pay on the card, keep receipts, keep proof of the proportion of the service you have received (log book should count for this) and make very sure that you did some kind of due diligence. If the card company thinks that you knew the company you were making a purchase from was about to go under, they will push back, and even more so if you appear to have opened the card account just to pay for the lessons.

All said and done though, I believe EFG have a good reputation, so if you go for it with a credit card, it does reduce the risk from just handing over the cash.

Just one question though. Are you absolutely committed to learning? If you are going to put £2000 up front, you need to be sure you want to. A lot of people who do pay up front, or by the lesson, will still take the first bunch of lessons as pay-per-lesson, just to be sure that 5 lessons in, they don't hate it, but suddenly still have a bill hanging over them, so have to carry on or lose out!!

Good luck whatever you do, and hope you do love it.....I do!

This makes useful reading

Section 75 refunds: Free protection for ALL spending... (http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases)

[gasax]

Comparing the 'cost' of getting a PPL by the hourly rates is generally only a partial answer.

Getting to and from the place, cancelled lessons, 'tech' aircraft, missing instructors and all the bits and pieces you tend to buy over the length of a course are all costs which are not covered - like landing fees! So unless you're cycling to the airfield and given the books and all the rest of the stuff these things all add up and can really change the difference - especially with landing fees in some places over £20.

And of course how long will it take you? Back in the day with a 43 hr course I got my brown 'poo' in 47 hours - calendar time? Just over 2 years - with no real issues on finding the money but a change of clubs. That should be regarded as 'fairly quick' unless you're really committed and doing not much else - like working.

My local flying club has since then (1985) been through at least 10 different manifestations that I can remember - so it is probably more! One year it went 'bust' twice! And yet this is in an area of comparative affluence with little competition.

Paying up front can be an indication of underlying financial issues - depending on how hard the club pushes it. At the end of the day buying 10 hrs may not represent much of a risk - so long as you fly it off quickly.

But I've seen my local club tottering on the brink (whilst I was firendly with the then proprietor) because during a good period of weather a load of the 'trial lesson' vouchers were booked. Unfortunately the money from them had already been spent by the previous 'owner'! This guy who was moderately successful in other businesses, lasted less than 2 years. He sold the club on, saying to me he could see no point in subsiding other peoples' flying!

[talkpedlar]

Long-term lurker here prompted to submit first Pprune reply by feelings of total despair!

1: Pprune No 1 House-Rule: Read other relevant threads before posting.

2: If you pay large-sums upfront and you may save some money...

3: ... but you may lose the lot!

4: No-brainer here.. which is more sensible.. to spend a few £ hundred
more... or to lose a few £ thousand?

5: Also, if you lose interest or your medical, before you've flown your pre-
paid hours, what is your contractual situation regrading a refund?
(Under contract law, the moment you commit to (say) ten hours, the
club/school is most likely entitled to the profit from 10 hours.. whether
you fly them or not!)

(Just finished reading the Cumbernauld Flying Club thread... £50,000 of students' upfront fees just gone down the pan... how much money have those :mad:s saved exactly?)

I despair... seems like no amount of red-ink will ever get through to some folk. Good luck all the same. TP :ok:

[The500man]

I'm truly stuck for what to do because I'll be away at university for most of the year and I'd like to minimise the cost by as much as possible.The simplest way to not have to pay upfront but still keep costs down is to save your money while you are at university (Sept - Aug) and then fly the entire course over a month during the summer holidays.

The benefit to this is you will be flying at the best time of year in terms of weather, and will likely complete in close to minimum hours because you will have less time between lessons in which to forget what you'd have previously learned.

Completing in minimum time paying hourly, will possibly cost about the same as paying for the whole course and then flying over several years and more likely completing in 50-60 hours.

Somehow I doubt you will want to wait though!

[theapplepie]

That is what I was planning to do this summer actually, but the weather doesn't seem to be very reliable (the last two weeks were either rain or low cloud) and I have another commitment this summer too so I thought I'd be impractical to try that. I have two months left now and I have only done 5 hours. How about doing another 25 hours this summer and the last 25 hours next summer?

Do you think I could at least complete all the ground exams this summer? Would EFG allow me to just book the ground exams and not do any flying?

[IanPZ]

theapplepie. Best advice is don't do exams until the instructor says so. They have a shelf life, and also make a lot more sense once you have been flying a little.

If you are in such a rush to get your ppl, and you want to do it in a summer, then why not read the sticky thread at the beginning of this about learning in florida. From what I understand, as long as you take certain precautions and overbook the amount of time you need, its a quick way to get your ppl, for a reasonable price.....

Then all you need to do is learn how to translate the skills of flying in clear airspace, sunny climate and minimal radio traffic to a UK environment....simples (NOT, as I understand it!)

[The500man]

How about doing another 25 hours this summer and the last 25 hours next summer?

You could do that if it suits you. Maybe just fly upto going solo in the circuit this summer and then leave navigation and the test until next year. You can expect to regress slightly whle not flying, but next summer heading straight into circuit revision to get back to solo standard and building a few hours of P1 time would lead nicely into the navigation element.

You will only need to have passed Air Law for solo circuits. I would advise you to leave the navigation exam until you start flying navigation, and I would leave the communications exam until last or at least until just before you are going to do the practical r/t test. For the other exams it doesn't really matter too much when you do them. They are pretty simple.

I don't think EFG charges for the exams but check with Anoop. He'll do his best to help you out I'm sure.

[mad_jock]

Don't bother with Florida I did a PPL course in 2 weeks up in inverness once. The guy turned up with all the exams passed and booked in for 2 hours a day one at 8:30 am and one at 12:30. But when the rest of the work was done and he and I reckoned were were both up for it we quite often went for a 3rd in the evening. Got towards the end of the second week and it was hells bells were nearly done.

And you don't need airlaw for solo. I have sent a few without it.

[RTN11]

I'm surprised to hear you be down on ATC and UAS. I was a member, and had at least 8 flights in a bulldog, followed by a gliding scholarship to first solo, then a powered flight scholarship to first solo. All in, I guess around £4000 worth of flying at today's rates.

Admittedly I did turn up every week, work hard, polish my boots, do hours and hours of drills and plenty of activities not even remotely related to flying. I guess you have to look at the bigger picture and work hard, especially in a competitive environment like a UAS.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Getting to and from the place, cancelled lessons, 'tech' aircraft, missing instructors and all the bits and pieces you tend to buy over the length of a course are all costs which are not covered - like landing fees!
Well, that depends, doesn't it. Landing fees are included at some schools ... but of course this is reflected in the hourly rate. So, a more expensive hourly rate doesn't necessarily mean a more expensive PPL.

[Contacttower]

I'd really rather not join the university air squadron because I used to be a member of the ATC and I despised it. It had absolutely nothing to do with flying whatsoever, it just consisted of endless drills and marching. Not my thing :P

UAS is not really like ATC at all; they hardly ever do drill and most of the emphasis is on adventurous training, sport and of course flying. Its not like was 10-20 years ago by any stretch of the imagination but when I was in ESUAS (based at Leuchars in Scotland) a few years ago you could still get some significant flying in; a few of my friends I knew reached something close to PPL standards in a two years of doing it I think and there is of course opportunity to do aerobatics, formation flying etc so it might be worth trying if money is an issue.

As for paying up front I did pay initially to what was then Old Sarum Flying Club a few installments of money which on reflection was a bad idea and low and behold they went bust a few years later, thankfully after I had long finished my training.

As others have mentioned though if you use a credit card and make sure you are covered you should be able to take advantage of the saving without the risk.

[mad_jock]

I would suspect that given the current climate for cuts in the MOD that the UAS is nothing like what it was even last year.

And there will be more changes to come. I doudt very much if the OP could swing it past the recruiters if they wern't 110% commited to become a officer first in the forces and a pilot second.

The OTC apparently is a shadow of its former self. No more KG6's firing 200k's worth of bang in one day and pissing off on a weekend with some other unit to get hammered and try and get your leg over the nurses in the field hospital.