Is this package/deal any good?

[theapplepie]

I am interested in getting my PPL at Biggin Hill. I've done 5 hours with EFG flying school (the introductory package) and I wish to continue to get my PPL. The thing is I can't be bothered to change clubs so I was wondering if their instalment package is any good? I speak of the C152 btw, not the PA28.

Private Pilots Licence | Courses - EFG Flying School - .

I phoned them up and it's actually £2000 per instalment now, so ignore the prices on the site.

Can I ask why the first three instalments have less hours yet are same price? is it some kind of scheme to get me to stay and finish the other instalments?

Would appreciate some guidance!

Another thing I don't understand is, why is 10 hours lower price (at £1450) than the instalment of 8 hours?? Nothing makes any sense to me!!

Rates | Courses - EFG Flying School - .

Also how does it compare to this?

Surrey&Kent Flying Club - Biggin Hill

Additionally if anyone could share recent experiences with learning at EFG I would be very grateful.

[cirrusdancer]

The higher initial payments are so the club gets more money off you up front - helps their cash flow and has nothing to do with the actual hours flown. I don't know the figures but I understand a lot of students give up or postpone their training so getting as much dosh off you early on works in the school's favour.

I guess the 10 hours for £1450 is solo as it's described as 'hours building' which may go a little way to explain the difference.

General advise is not to pay up front, which will probably be repeated on this thread any time now.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Suggest you read all the threads on flying schools going bust and taking their pupils' money with them, and the oft-repeated advice here, which some on those threads might have done better to heed, which is

DO NOT PAY UP FRONT

Unless you do so by some means which guarantees your money back if the school goes bust.

[gasax]

30 seconds with the search function should convince you - never, ever, ever pay anything up front to any flying club. Most have the financial stability of a house of cards. So remember never, never, never pay up front for anything to any flying club!!!!

[The500man]

I learnt to fly at EFG and it's a nice place to fly. It isn't cheap but you get what you pay for. I don't know if Corina is still there? She was a very pleasant instructor, though I did most of my training with Paul, who was excellent.

I know most people will keep banging on about not paying up front, but as you can see from the instalment option, you will pay a fair bit more if you go down that route. The idea of the 5 hour pack, that you have done is to give students an intoduction so they can see if they want to go on to do the full course or not. If you are certain about continuing you will more than likely be better off paying for the whole course on a credit card (check with your card provider if you could get a full refund if the school goes under).

To be honest I don't think you need to worry about EFG going under since it's owned by the same family that owns the engineering company at Biggin, which also provides training aircraft to quite a few schools in the area. There's also no shortage of students there. Just be mindful that you are taking a risk paying upfront, but as I say I think it's a very small one in this case.

One thing I will add. Landing and circuit fees at Biggin are not cheap. Although some landings and circuits are included in the PPL package, you will likely need more. So bare in mind if you do buy the full course that you may well have to pay more later. Also most people take longer than 45 hours. So bare that in mind also when you work out your flying budget.

Good luck!

[theapplepie]

Thanks a lot for all the replies

How much more on average would it cost me if I did it on a per hour basis though?

Yeah I had an instructor at EFG tell me about schools going bust, they also said it's ok if I pay by credit card so that is what I am planning to do.

Do you think it's possible for me to get the PPL package in one payment and then stretch that to more than a year by just buying another years membership? Would they allow me to do this? I can't do it within a year because 1. the weather doesn't seem to be very reliable this summer and 2. i go to university away from home.

I understand biggin hill is expensive but it's the only airport reasonably near where I live (still a 45 minute drive though), and I can't think of any other airport with a hard runway.

Hmm I don't know any Corina, or a Paul, probably my ignorance, when did you last fly at EFG? I don't remember seeing a female instructor there at all. Was Anoop the manager when you were there?

[The500man]

Yes Anoop was the manager when I was training there. It's his family that owns EFG. In terms of flying over more than one year, you should be fine. I did just that and just paid another years membership. It's been around 14 months since I last flew there, so maybe the instructors have changed.

You could ask about just paying for each lesson as you fly them. It would probably cost quite a bit more. If you look at the dual 1 hour training rate and multiply it by 45 you've pretty much already reached the full course price without taking into consideration any circuits/ landings or the exam/ membership fees. On the plus side you won't have to pay any interest on credit or finance. You'll need to have a think and then sit down with a calculator and work out what will suit you best.

[Deeday]

Will people here please stop patronising newcomers with that sort of red capitals shouting?

30 seconds with the search function should convince you - never, ever, ever pay anything up front to any flying club.

Do you realise how useless that piece of advice is? By the same logic, never, ever go flying on a light aircraft. A 30-second search on this forum will show you how many people have killed themselves that way.

What the OP would find useful is getting an idea of what the risk is, or in plain English: how many people lose their money in schools gone bust vs. how many people pay upfront and get their licence. Knowing only half of the picture is pretty much useless.

Oh and yes, I did pay upfront, much more than two grand; got my licence and made savings in the region of half a grand. I'm glad I didn't heed the invaluable advice that you find in this sort of threads.

[A and C]

Deeday

you are quite right, it is about risk management, after getting on for forty years in the business and seeing more flying clubs go bust than I like to remember I can say that paying up front is not worth the risk.

So for those of you with poor eyesight.

Don't pay up front it is not worth the risk

[Gertrude the Wombat]

How much more on average would it cost me if I did it on a per hour basis though?

Why is the school trying to borrow money from you with such an attractive rate?

Just think about it.

There is only one conceivable possible answer.

Because they have already tried to borrow from the bank at a lower rate and been told to piss off.

You're better at judging financial risk than the banks, are you?

If so, well done. If not, do not pay up front.

[jxc]

Not sure if it has been mentioned enough times


Don't pay up front you have been warned

[The500man]

Why is the school trying to borrow money from you with such an attractive rate?

This is not the reason! PPL packages are fiercely competitive and include different things, newcomers generally don't know which bits are important, so they go by price and not by what is included. This is why most packages don't include a realistic number of circuits/ landings or any at all. Obviously paid in full courses still make money for the school, they are not taking out a loan from you because the bank said no! Maybe there are some schools/ clubs that would take your money knowing that they are on the brink of collapse, but lets differentiate between those schools/ clubs and the decent schools/ clubs.

I could say more but I don't see the point. You guys are not giving bad advice saying don't pay upfront, but you do need to take into consideration the people and organisation that the Op is dealing with. If you know nothing about them/ it then please shut up because you are simply embarrassing yourselves regurgitating the same single piece of advice. It was posted once in big red letters and reasonably so, but now it is simply retarded. Stop pretentending to know something you don't and pass it off as good advice to someone that wants to know.

[gasax]

A fool and his/her money are easily parted. The average 'life span' of a flying club is no more than a couple of years. The return on capital is barely measurable, one large bill and they are bust!

Never ever ever pay up front. It they are solvent they do not need the money before the costs are incurred. If they are discounting the price - which barely covers their costs anyhow - why? Because they are a charitable organisation?

So for those hard of comprehension - never ever pay up front!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It was posted once in big red letters and reasonably so, but now it is simply retarded.

No, you are simply wrong.

The most recent thread about a school going bust and losing the punters their money was started long after it was first "posted once in big red letters", which was years ago now. It does need repeating from time to time, and the fact that people lost money when that most recent school went bust is clear evidence that it isn't repeated in big red letters often enough.

[IanPZ]

Gasax, is that really a statistic, 2 years? It's just that whilst I know flying schools do go bust, all the ones near me have been running for probably 10 years or more (in one case, at least 20). That must mean that there are schools out there that only last a few weeks at most, to give a 2 year average.

Is it really that bad? I had no idea.

[Whirlygig]

To be honest I don't think you need to worry about EFG going under

And a year ago, I would have said the same about Sterling Helicopters but look where they are now.

Cheers

Whirls

[MFC_Fly]

2. i go to university away from home.

Then why not save yourself a lot of money and join your affiliated University Air Squadron?

You will be taught to fly by some bloody good instructors for free, meet lots of like-minded students to have a lot of fun with, adventure training opportunities and you even get paid for each day you attend plus travel costs, with no obligation to 'join up' on graduation.

see RAF Cranwell - University Air Squadrons

[The500man]

The most recent thread about a school going bust and losing the punters their money was started long after it was first "posted once in big red letters", which was years ago now. It does need repeating from time to time, and the fact that people lost money when that most recent school went bust is clear evidence that it isn't repeated in big red letters often enough

Repeating in parrot fashion the same piece of advice, aimed at the same person, in one thread, is too much. Sorry but I'm not wrong about that.

The fact is not everyone visits PPRuNe before making decisions about spending money on flying, so your clear evidence that "do not pay upfront" isn't repeated often enough here is looking somewhat murky. It's been mentioned too much now in this thread.

[mad_jock]

IanPZ if you knew the state of the profit margins and flying schools and how quickly they can change you would see why its so easy for them to go under so quickly from what you thought was a secure position.

All it takes is to miss a price increase on a fuel increase and they can be loosing 10 quid per hour.

An engine needs replacing before its TBO thats a percentage of 18k gone.

The CAA changes the goal posts and you inccure additional fees.


By selling hours in advance your actually hedging your costs for that hour of flying. Fuel costs can and do jump in price, this EASA stuff may cause a huge increase in fixed costs and also maint costs. Most school owners are not savy enough to understand this or even consider this. What to them means an increase in cash flow and a cheap loan can turn into a a very expensive and possibly bankrupting exercise in the space of a couple of weeks.

There are many 10 year plus schools gone under in the last few years.

And thats not even allowing for someone getting fed up with the whole game and asset stripping before shutting up shop because you can get more money that way than selling it as a going concern.

the not paying up front point needs repeating many times because people are still loosing money doing it. When people stop loosing money it shall stop being repeated. If the schools were forced to use an escrow? (I think thats the name for it) or had similar protection to pax travelling for money payed up front we wouldn't have an excuse to keep on repeating it.

[Whirlygig]

For every person who says, "Weigh up the risk and pay in advance if it saves you dosh", there should be at least three peoplpe who countermand that point by stating, "Do not pay upfront". Any person who questions the wisdom of paying in advance needs to appreciate that the concensus of opinion is "don't". This is NOT the place for balanced argument.

As for assessing risk .... how many people really have access to credit reports, credit ratings and business accounts as well as knowing how to interpret them. I do, and that's what I did when, in 2003, I paid £15,000 for Sterling Helicopters in advance for a full time PPL(H). Firstly, at that time, they owned outright all the helicopters so the total asset base was healthy. Their Dun and Bradstreet rating was A1. They had a positive cash balance (no overdraft). My exposure to risk would have been over a 6 week period. I accepted that risk and I came out better off. Sterling has now got the liquidators in. And this was an operator who had existed for 25 years, ran police, air ambulance, pipeline, charter and training.

So, unless someone knows what they are doing in obtaining and interpreting such financial information, I would say that they should not rely on marketing blurb, or how busy a school is, or how plush the crew room. If you don't know whether the aircraft are mortgaged to the hilt for example, how do know the business's financial stability.

I've just tried to have a look at D&B for EFG Flying School ... can't find them. Are they a limited company? If they are, they do not advertise their company number on their website (which they should do). If they are an unincorporated business, then there is even more risk in giving them money in advance.

Cheers

Whirls