Tiger Australia grounded by CASA

[STN Ramp Rat]

Statement from Tiger Airways Australia

As of 11:00 pm on Friday, 1 July 2011, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority of Australia (CASA) has instructed Tiger Airways Australia to suspend domestic services until Saturday, 9 July 2011, whilst they conduct further investigations into two recent operational incidents.

Tiger Airways' services to and from Singapore are not affected and continue to operate normally.

Tiger Airways continues to cooperate fully with the industry regulator and safety underpins our operations at all times.

The airline is currently working with the safety regulator to achieve a satisfactory outcome to its investigation at the earliest opportunity, as was achieved with the recent Show Cause Notice. Tiger Airways has fully complied with the conditions required by CASA as a result of this process.

In the meantime the airline is doing all it can to minimise passenger disruption, especially for passengers who are travelling this weekend and over the next week.

Customers with bookings within Australia between now and 6:00 am on Saturday, 9 July should not travel to the airport. They will be offered a full refund or credit for deferred travel.

Tiger Airways will be providing regular updates via its website (Welcome To Tiger Airways (http://www.tigerairways.com)) as well as through the media. The next update will be at 3:00 pm AEST Saturday, 2 July 2011.

The airline apologises for any inconvenience to its passengers. Tiger Airways is committed to resolving the issue, assisting CASA and to resuming services as soon as possible.

Please note: Tiger Airways' call centre is experiencing a high volume of calls at this time but the airline has added extra agents to help field the volume of calls.

Passengers are advised to monitor the website as it will be updated regularly throughout the week with further updates.

running on the D & G forum but probarbly deserves a wider forum

[RobShan]

Looking at the over all picture I think CASA probably had to act, based on what has been reported (so far not disputed by Tiger) CASA had been investigating concerns since March, have issued a show cause notice. Then the ATSB starts an investigation (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-070.aspx)of a Tiger flight busting Lowest Safe Altitude on 7 June, and another flight descends below LSALT on 30 June (another ATSB investigation (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-076.aspx)), this was probably a last straw event.

There is clearly cause for concern, as this looks like more than a run of bad luck.

[hetfield]

Two altitude busts in one month, (not) bad.....

[adzA]

On the news tonight, a flight engineer stated that he would not have flown with Tiger Airways anyway, due to the knowledge he had about their operation (from what I can gather giving viewers the indication that the issue was an engineering safety issue).

Now coming here, I see reports that are based on flight operations (LSA's) being the issue, not engineering. (I think I'll trust PPRuNe before the 6'oclock news personally), but I would be interested to know if there have been any official release as to what CASA's concerns are that have closed down an entire airline during the start of the school holidays for at least the first week.

[hetfield]

Tiger Airways Australia suspended

The Civil Aviation Safety Authority has suspended the operations of Tiger Airways Australia Pty Ltd with immediate effect from Saturday 2 July 2011.
This action has been taken because CASA believes permitting the airline to continue to fly poses a serious and imminent risk to air safety.
The suspension of Tiger Airways Australia follows the issue of a show cause notice to the airline in March 2011.
Taking Tiger Airways Australia’s response to this show cause notice into account, CASA subsequently imposed a number of conditions on the airline’s air operator’s certificate.
These conditions required actions to improve the proficiency of Tiger Airways Australia’s pilots, improvements to pilot training and checking processes, changes to fatigue management, improvements to maintenance control and ongoing airworthiness systems and ensuring appropriately qualified people fill management and operational positions.
CASA has been closely monitoring the operations of Tiger Airways Australia throughout 2011, with surveillance undertaken at a range of locations.
Since Tiger Airways Australia was served the show cause notice there have been further events raising concerns about the airline’s ability to continue to conduct operations safely.
In the circumstances, CASA no longer has confidence in the ability of Tiger Airways Australia to satisfactorily address the safety issues that have been identified.
The suspension is in force immediately for an initial five working days, during which time CASA must apply to the Federal Court for an extension of the grounding.
If the Federal Court supports CASA’s application the court can continue the suspension for a period of time which will allow CASA to finalise investigations into the safety matters.
CASA will provide additional information on Saturday 2 July 2011.
Media contact:
Peter Gibson
Mobile: 0419 296 446
Ref: MR4511Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Tiger Airways Australia suspended (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100504)

[onetrack]

From Tiger's CEO, Davis - "We've worked very hard with CASA to make sure we address any issues that they identify, and we're committed to doing that going forward"...

The minute I hear that cute middle management BS phrase inserted into a statement, I know full well that the speaker has got to his position by substantial applications of BS... rather than any capable management ability, or leadership skills... :suspect:

The man must be in training to be a politician...

[estuardo]

"CASA says the action has been taken because it believes permitting the airline to continue to fly poses a serious and imminent risk to air safety.

CASA spokesman Peter Gibson said the action was not taken lightly and was the culmination of a number of events this year."

Tiger domestic flights suspended: CASA | News | Business Spectator (http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/Tiger-Airways-domestic-flights-cancelled-JCURN?OpenDocument&src=hp5)

Does not sound like a happy ending....

[elrehab]

thats just brilliant for me... i was supposed to start ground school...and iv been on hold, . im totally disappointed at tiger and the way they operate, seriously forget being a customer, tigers ruined my career and others who are in the same position as me...tiger needs to be more ethical and responsible.

[JFZ90]

Given the 2 reported "minimum safe altitude" violations in June, the latter of which seems to have precipitated this grounding - is the issue here mainly pilot training? Why would there be systematic problems in this area - short cuts, pilot inexperience/unqualified or even incompetance?

[vianostra]

Can anyone shed light on the original CASA “show cause” in March 2011? How did TGW/TT respond? Why has that response and their subsequent operations not satisfied CASA? Did CASA during this period change the goal posts? Have there been any recent changes in personnel or the head count in TGW/TT CEO, Flight Ops, Maintenance, Training, Safety Management, Quality Assurance, and Compliance Depts. etc.?

How can TGW senior management have allowed the situation to deteriorate to such a level as an AOC suspension? One would have thought that a “show cause” would have been more than a sufficient warning, rap on the knuckles, an alarm bell, a necessary wake up call, gentle coercion or arm twisting for TGW management indeed to respond in an appropriate and timely manner? The suspension last night could hardly be seen by accountable and responsible TGW managers as “out of the blue”, an ambush, or a surprise? Given CASA’s close oversight, inspection and regulation, why could they not convince TGW to behave earlier? Can someone please give some insight into the real safety and compliance culture at TGW and TT in particuliar?

Were TGW managers asleep on the job, complacent, blasé, incompetent, dysfunctional, not fit for purpose, negligent, inexperienced, arrogant, or distracted? How did TGW’s financial situation / loss making play out? Was TGW/TT sufficiently resourced? How could the Tiger Board supposedly exercising due diligence and corporate governance allow a not insignificant Australian airline’s ( 10 + A320s ) brand, reliability and safety reputation ( and maybe that of the Singapore TR as well ) to be diminished or even destroyed by an AOC suspension? Given the strong links and association with TR in Singapore who continue to fly into Australia for the time being begs the question, are they any better? With a different AOC and regulator, just how do TR in Singapore do things differently to TT in Australia? Why would SIA/SQ as 30 odd per cent shareholders want or need to be associated with this lot?

Looks like the TGW/TT (and maybe including TR) LCC business model needs major surgery as opposed to some cosmetic changes and minor tweaking around the edges.

Safety is no accident, and if you can’t be safe, then be bloody careful!

[27/09]

I wonder if CASA will take similar action with another Australian LCC that had an incident a Melbourne a while back, or are they just being selective?

[MTOW]

Have there been any recent changes in personnel New Chief Pilot took the job in April, I understand. If half the stories I've heard are true, he took on a poison chalice, to put it mildly.

[PA28Viking]

Wow!

All we know is that on two occasions Tiger Airways crews descended below MSA on approach.

We do not know what led to that. We do not know if it was two unrelated incidents of crew error or if it is a systemic flaw in training, operation or maintenaince at Tiger Airways.

Some may hold a grouch against Tiger or against LCC airlines or management in general, but the information is not there yet to conclude anything.

CASA has to err on the safe side, and there may be a hint in the steps they have taken, but still nothing conclusive.

[Skillsy]

The AVV incident can be viewed via Webtrak (http://ems01.bksv.com/webtrak/mel3)if you select 11pm on 30/06/2011 although part of the go-around is outside the system limits.

[RobShan]

From what I have read, there were maintenance concerns, but the primary concern was Pilot proficiency. This Plane Talking blog (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/07/01/all-tiger-pilots-being-retrained-under-conditions-imposed-by-casa-on-its-aoc/) by Ben Sandilands makes interesting reading.

If the sequence of events is confirmed, saving a few dollars with an attempted downwind landing, flying below LSALT and landing without a clearance is a scary occurrence.:eek:

[LeadSled]

------- landing without a clearance is a scary occurrence.
RobShan,
At the time, the Avalon aerodrome was uncontrolled, the tower had closed about an hour earlier.
The whole incident was tracked by Melbourne radar, so ATSB (and, presumably, CASA) have complete details of the track and heights of the aircraft.
There is significant terrain in the immediate vicinity of the airfield.
Tootle pip!!

[Sciolistes]

From what I have read, there were maintenance concerns, but the primary concern was Pilot proficiency. This Plane Talking blog by Ben Sandilands makes interesting reading
Hmmm, from Plane Talking:
Why the Tiger flight first attempted its landing with a tail wind component when for a few minutes additional time in the air it could have made a conventional landing into the wind will no doubt be explored by the ATSB.
The above quote is maybe an indicator of the level of ingnorance by some commentators. The wind on approach and the wind on the ground are not the same thing. It is quite normal in some places to experience 20-30 knots tailwind on approach and with the risk of getting high despite the wind on the ground being VRB/5!

[hetfield]

Ryan Thai will be represented on the Thai Tiger board by Declan Ryan. Mr Ryan was one of the founding shareholders of both Tiger Airways and Ryanair.TG and Tiger ready to joint venture : TTRweekly (http://www.ttrweekly.com/site/2011/03/tg-and-tiger-ready-to-joint-venture/)

March 2, 2011

[RobShan]

Quote:
Why the Tiger flight first attempted its landing with a tail wind component when for a few minutes additional time in the air it could have made a conventional landing into the wind will no doubt be explored by the ATSB.
The above quote is maybe an indicator of the level of ingnorance by some commentators. The wind on approach and the wind on the ground are not the same thing. It is quite normal in some places to experience 20-30 knots tailwind on approach and with the risk of getting high despite the wind on the ground being VRB/5!

Thank you for information, a check of the winds at Avalon at the time (see below) shows steady down wind for runway 18 on the ground and (I am not a pilot) I suspect well with limits for a landing with wind on the tail. At Melbourne 50km away where they were experiencing similar winds they were landing into the wind; it is probably worth asking the question.


Dir Spd Gust Spd Gust
km/h km/h kts kts
11:30pm NNE 9 13 5 7
11:00pm NNE 15 22 8 12
10:30pm NE 13 15 7 8
10:00pm ENE 11 13 6 7
09:30pm NE 13 17 7 9
09:00pm NNE 13 17 7 9
08:30pm NNE 15 19 8 10
08:00pm NNE 13 17 7 9
07:30pm N 11 17 6 9
07:00pm NNE 17 20 9 11
06:30pm NNE 22 28 12 15
06:00pm NNE 17 24 9 13
05:30pm NNE 19 24 10 13

[RobShan]

Quote:
------- landing without a clearance is a scary occurrence.
RobShan,
At the time, the Avalon aerodrome was uncontrolled, the tower had closed about an hour earlier.
The whole incident was tracked by Melbourne radar, so ATSB (and, presumably, CASA) have complete details of the track and heights of the aircraft.
There is significant terrain in the immediate vicinity of the airfield.
Tootle pip!!

Thank you for the reply, I have generally found Ben's blog a reliable source of information. The fact the tower closed three hours earlier, shows his information is not correct in this case. It may be it is totally wrong or it may be something like the flight left controlled airspace descending without proper clearance.

As a matter full disclosure, my sentence quoted above did start with "If the sequence of events is confirmed..." which did come from doubt because of the limited amount of confirmed information available.

[A37575]

QNH 1034 at Av. Cruise 1013. Supposing - just supposing - the crew forgot to change to 1034 on descent, wouldn't that put them about 600 ft low and at night...

Radio altimeter would show true height over water if noticed.

[hetfield]

QNH 1034 at Av. Cruise 1013. Supposing - just supposing - the crew forgot to change to 1034 on descent,

????????????????????

[Helmut Smokar]

For the non pilots and Jurnos:

With regard to landing with a tail wind, the reality is tail wind landings are conducted regularly without issue all around the world, some examples that come to mind .
Morning arrivals into SYD 34L quartering tail wind all the way down the approach with light and variable on the ground "occasional downwind 5 kts" -Noise abatement reasons.
PER 21 arrivals at night howling quartering tailwind, crosswind sometimes in excess of 40 kts at 400ft with maybe 10 kts tailwind component becoming light and variable on the ground " tending downwind 4 kts - also noise abatement reasons".
LAX all runways to 24 and 25 complexes, regular operations with up to 5-10 kts tailwind on the ground - traffic management reasons.
It is just the modern world of aviation, that's the reason aircraft are certified to land and takeoff with a certain tailwind limitation.

Why they elected to land tailwind at AVV? Probably to take advantage of an ILS approach to runway 18 rather than fly the VOR approach or visual approach to 36 (Avalon is not equipped with an ILS to 36). Reason? Because it is both easier and safer to fly an ILS approach where you have accurate glidepath information. I doubt cost entered the crews mind, savings are negligible anyway.

As for the missed approach and subsequent decent below the MSA, I'll leave that to the ATSB to comment on.

[crewmeal]

Still not back in the skies then? How long will this debacle go on for I wonder?

[HotDog]

A bit of an overkill methinks, ground the captain; not the airline. Sounds a bit political to me.

[greybeard]

Shades of Compass 1?????

Reduces the opposition????

:=

[Sqwak7700]

The reason's stated for the grounding of Tiger could easily be applied to just about every major airline out there. They all sacrifice safety for costs. Very political I'm afraid, not very practical.

[Milt]

Does anyone know the MSAs which were violated and whether the violations were IFR or VFR? The only significant spot height close to Avalon is the Youyangs. Perhaps the MSAs were the established break off heights for an instrument approach.

[Taildragger67]

Milt,

Very little on the ATSB website so far re the 30 Jun YMAV (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-076.aspx) incident.

A little more detail on the 07 Jun YMML (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-070.aspx) incident.

[Microburst2002]

What happened exactly?
where they VMC?

[shafs64]

I flew out of Ymav last night on a JQ flight tigers 320s was just stting there looking very sad. I will not fly with tiger and its not because of the right wing media push out all sorts of lies about flying. its because I work with some of there former employees.

And they will not fly with them so that make me think there is something on the nose over at tiger.

[hetfield]

A37575

QNH 1034 at Av. Cruise 1013. Supposing - just supposing - the crew forgot to change to 1034 on descent, wouldn't that put them about 600 ft low and at night...Still I don't get it...

[Bubi352]

In 2008, Spirit Airlines was on the brink of closing down at the peak of the recession. Indigo, which owns partly Spirit Airlines, sent 7 Airbus (5 A319s and 2 A321s) in a matter of weeks to other airlines looking for a lease. Unfortunately, I can see Indigo doing the same for Tiger. Let's put it another way, Spirit is looking to expand rapidly with several new routes announced.

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Why do I get a sneaky suspiscion that this is Ansett Mark II

[Cyrano]

It looks as though they have now suspended all sales. ATI quotes them as saying that flights are "temporarily removed from sale", and indeed when you go into the booking engine you can choose Australian routes and see the schedule, just not select any flights to book.

[fromSIN]

Now grounded until 1st August: Tiger grounded until August 1 (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-grounded-until-august-1-20110706-1h2en.html)

[IFixPlanes]

And here (http://bit.ly/mZlDUR) the news from the CASA itself.

[Capt Claret]

Perhaps nit-picking but not yet grounded till Aug 1, CASA is to apply to the Federal Court for such a grounding.

ABC news reports "CEO Crawford Rix has resigned" on said news.

[sierra5913]

The government giveth, the government taketh.

If your boys are on the wrong team, make absolutely sure you dot the "i's" and cross the "t's".

[Andu]

Watch for the aircraft to start being moved overseas, where they can earn the lessors some money.

[Cyrano]

Watch for the aircraft to start being moved overseas, where they can earn the lessors some money.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but the aircraft are still earning the lessors their money. Merely being grounded doesn't absolve Tiger from paying their aircraft leases.

Now if you're (for example) RBS, with five aircraft on lease there, you are likely thinking about "what if...?" possibilities - but the fact remains that RBS, GECAS and Macquarie still have valid lease contracts with a non-bankrupt airline, so they will (understandably) expect to keep getting paid.

If Tiger wants to send the aircraft somewhere else (ie sublease to another carrier in the short term) to offset their costs, that's another matter (and subject to lessor approval).

[CDRW]

Ricfly747 - you hit the nail on the head. For Australians to digest that they did not invent flying, are not the best pilots, not the best Air Traffic controllers, not the best maintenance crew is just simply too much for them to comprehend. Yup they more or less have never lost a hull. A bit less than more. So they will continue to show the world that they are the best. A bit like their cricket and rugby teams!

[Bubi352]

This company is facing possibly bankruptcy. They might not see their money. I would be searching for a new lessee quickly.

[Major Cleve Saville]

Ricfly747, CDRW,

You have to remember that Australian aviation is like Australian wildlife, it has developed differently and is inhabited by creatures generally pretty venomous.
If you look at DG&P you will find the only forums where pilots of a single nation repeatedly accuse each other of being unsafe:

Tiger Airways, JetStar, Qantas you name it the airline is accused by the general pilot community of unsafe practices. Cadet Pilots, Third Party Maintenance, any LCC- all unsafe!

What any pragmatic sane nation would see as 'thats life sh!t happens lets all learn from it and move on'. is unsafe, dangerous, ban, ground, sack we are all going to die!

If Tiger Australia (manned by Aussie skygods) is unsafe just think what any airline run. crewed, regulated by Asians must be like, or even worse Pommie or Irish management who for some reason induce the skygods into flying like morons, and the engineers to don boxing gloves before carrying out the simplest maintenance action.

The really nasty thing is that there appears to be a wish to destroy Tiger Airways Singapore as well. Different company, different people, different regulator.

There are lies damned lies and statistics, statistically Qantas have not written of a jet hull, as they chose to rebuild them around a single original rivet to preserve the myth. Lots of other airlines have never written off a jet but you don't see them all claiming to be the safest bar none. It seems that they are almost paralysed by the fear of not being no 1. The overall Australian statistics are just pretty average with GA (who they seem to think are the best pilots to fly airliners) doing very averagely.

Remember these are people who just will not cross a road until the green man comes on to say it is 'safe'and will throw rocks at those who do.

I am sure we could all recount a few ' Oz Skygod' stories if we wished!

Rant over,

[Major Cleve Saville]

At last someone with some common sense,


Meanwhile, the pilots' union said yesterday the competence of Tiger pilots was being unfairly called into question by the airline's grounding.

The Australian Federation of Air Pilots' industrial relations manager, Lawrie Cox, said the union was angry that pilots were being implicated in the grounding. ''We have professional pilots out there, they are experienced, they have met the criteria,'' Mr Cox said.

''Having the regulator come out and say it's risky to fly on this airline is an appalling statement and totally unacceptable.''

Mr Cox said that ill-informed comment from inside the aviation industry was also unhelpful.

Read more: Tiger pilots relied on plane's false computer data (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-pilots-relied-on-planes-false-computer-data-20110707-1h4xn.html#ixzz1RQpxOJ4y)

[mach 84]

most likely a welcome chance to get rid of a competitor.

[hetfield]

most likely a welcome chance to get rid of a competitor. So, QF = CASA ?

[STN Ramp Rat]

This company is facing possibly bankruptcy. They might not see their money. I would be searching for a new lessee quickly.

That depends on who the leases are guaranteed by. Let’s say for instance that Tiger Singapore are guaranteeing the leases for Tiger Airways Australia then
the leasing company is sitting pretty.

It is however not uncommon for a leasing company to be quietly touting airframes around select carriers and brokers in the weeks leading up to an airlines bankruptcy

I imagine the leasing company will have people deployed to Australia to check and secure the maintenance records just in case.

[Bubi352]

I think we can agree the leasing company is not going to sit idle.

[Doors to Automatic]

Interesting news today about the CEO of Tiger Austrailia leaving his post.

[slice]

Care to elaborate Doors ? I only ask because from down here it seems that basically from day 1, the management side of Tiger Aust has been a shoddy operation all round, both from a commercial and operational point of view.

[AirResearcher]

I'm surprised no-one appears to have spotted the very strong links between Tiger & Ryanasia & Ryanair ( ie Declan Ryan, son of Tony, Irelandia majority holder of Ryanair) yet.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Thaicorporate-conference/files/Declan_Ryan.pdf (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Thaicorporate-conference/files/Declan_Ryan.pdf)

[Prince Niccolo M]

Doors,

I have a little difficulty with the picture you paint.

TD set it up and remained responsible for both the management systems and the management culture that was in place. There has been absolutely no noise about CR undoing anything that was already in place and, in any event, if he had unwound some of the systems and culture TD would have heard about it in a heartbeat.

I do not think it is unreasonable to conclude that the currently identified problems were inherent and that time finally caught up with the Tiger model employed here (and undoubtedly in SIN).

[aguadalte]

The paper chart stipulated a minimum altitude of 2500 feet but the computer erroneously gave 2000 feet as the minimum, investigators from the Australian Transport Safety Bureau have revealed in a preliminary report into the June 7 incident.According to the preliminary report, a cross-checking of the computer and flight-chart data failed to pick up the disparity. The co-pilot at one stage queried the lower altitude but the captain confirmed it by referring to the flight computer.
Read more: Tiger pilots relied on plane's false computer data (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-pilots-relied-on-planes-false-computer-data-20110707-1h4xn.html#ixzz1RWiNPUpY)


Don't these guys perform briefings before landing?
Don't they compare their charted approach patterns with the ones given by FMGC?

I can't believe SOP's would allow a pilot to fly below a chartered safety altitude by referring primarily to the computer...:ugh:
Also, when in doubt (specially when flying low!) one chooses the safer altitude, not the lower. Some call it: common sense.
Others call it also: Professionalism.

[Beg Tibs]

Major Cleve, you are one uninformed idiot.....Australian pilots arent the issue, its the training behind the whole thing...:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Major Cleve Saville]

Beg Tibs,

Time to grow up, act like adults and take personal responsibility. If I/we screw up I/we screw up, stop blaming everyone else for our/your mistakes. :ugh:

If you say its the training then who is doing the training if not ...... other Australian pilots? :ugh:

As pilots (adults) we need the discipline to keep learning without having to be dependent on others to direct us. Do you really need extra special training to maintain a cleared altitude? Know when or not to descend below an MSA? :ugh:

I suspect one crew may have been caught out by the use of FINAL APP mode, but I will wait for the final report.

[Oriana]

What's up Major? - Get knocked back on your attempt to come to Australia on a ****haus contract?

We may/may not be 'skygods' but I'd like to remind you no one here has (so far ) killed a few hundred people on a jet.

The fact that Australian airline management are 'importing' bull****e 'management practices' from your Irish/English/European 'best practices' by 'skimping on the pate' such as fancy resources like pilot training, safety departments staffed by pilots, EXPERIENCE etc has nothing to do with Australian aviators taking 'personal responsibility' for safety and operations - they are the last line of defense that prevents the cost-cutting, LCC 'wet dream' from becoming a human tragedy not yet seen in this country.

[DoMePlease]

The Sydney morning herald is saying it was the same captain in both the low altitude excursion incidents?

[Major Cleve Saville]

Oriana,

Yes I would love to come and work in Australia for the following reasons:

Pay: Third world pay, hang on, I could earn more in the third world forget that.
Great airlines: except for Tiger and Jetstar apparently. Ah Qantas that sounds like a great expanding airline - lots of opportunity there then!
What about Virgin, no been warned off Sir Richard Branson is a Pom so imported; bull****e 'management practices' from your Irish/English/European 'best practices' by 'skimping on the pate Virgin Airways has just got to have a worse safety record than any Oz airline, right?
Lifestyle: I could get to live in SYD BNE MEL PER, ah but those are some of the most expensive cities in the world, so maybe not, especially on that sub third world pay.
Well goverened though as socialist, high taxing nanny states go: 'gotta follow all those bloody rules mate'.

Never crashed a jet, except for the odd B747, so never had a fatal Jet accident, turbo-props yes, so turbo-prop passenger lives in Australia don't matter? Better not fly on anything but a Jet, except for Jetstar or Tiger or Virgin (remember those euro bull****e practices). I will start saving up for Qantas (oh but haven't they been slated in the Aussie press for safety issues too - oh well I will ignore that), might be a while, nearly forgot that third world pilot's pay, high cost of living, high tax and high airfares

Seems to me no low cost/ no frills airlines can operate safely in 'other parts of the globe' (places with much worse operating environments than Oz) with good regulation, well structured relevant training, excellent safety management systems, well controlled maintenance etc etc. (Not that I want to work for any of them). Is it a LCC problem is it something else.......

I do feel extremely sorry for the crew(s) involved in the two Tiger incidents, already blamed by their peers for grounding an entire airline, without even a fair hearing/ final report yet.

Another reason for being soooooo desperate to work in Oz; The open safety culture, definately no culture of blame there.....

I submit!! You have really got it all sorted downunda, no worries, all good .....

[chase888]

A simple question please.
Was the flawed computer programme "airline specific" or is it something that any commercial operation could buy?

[Red-eye]

I don't agree with this sort of information being leaked to the media but it is out there now. Same pilot controlled low Tiger flights (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/same-pilot-controlled-low-tiger-flights-20110710-1h8h5.html)

To the Captain who is mentioned in the article, I'm sure you are a very competent Pilot.

Let's go with the theory innocent until...

[Oriana]

Your post makes obvious the fact you have no idea what I said, and you have no idea of what you talk about.

However, I do commend you on successfully proving that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.:hmm:

Nice work.:ok:

[PLovett]

Was the flawed computer programme "airline specific" or is it something that any commercial operation could buy?

Yes and no. The data base was purchased from Jeppesen and prepared for Tiger Australia. Jeppesen made the mistake but it was an airline specific mistake. Sounds double dutch I know but a commercially available data base that when prepared for a specific airline contained a mistake.

[Hydromet]

To put it another way, it sounds like the program and data architecture were OK, but there was an error in the data.

[Gundog01]

Remember these are people who just will not cross a road until the green man comes on to say it is 'safe'and will throw rocks at those who do.


Crossed 4 roads today with the red man flashing. No rocks observed from fellow pedestrians.

[aiming point]

ILS 27 at YMML is normally descend to 2500 ft by ATC and then cleared for the approach...ie "Arm Approach" and intercept G/S from 2500 or above'.

No use of managed final approach mode. Therefore coding or altitudes in the FMGC should not come into play and should not affect the conduct of what is essentially a "basic modes" ILS approach.

The database altitude coding should most likely be an irrelevant Furphy in this particular case. The ATC cleared altitude may have been misinterpreted or miss set in the window.

Whilst I hate what LCC has done to this Profession, by exposing and allowing pilots unprotected access to their "Darksides", this treatment of Tiger Airways and its crews is simply wrong !!!!

[Checkboard]

Same pilot controlled low Tiger flights (http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/same-pilot-controlled-low-tiger-flights-20110710-1h8h5.html)

[Australian Federation of Air Pilots industrial relations manager Lawrie Cox] said at no stage was there a threat to the safety of the aircraft...

What a ridiculous statement. Makes Laurie Cox sound like an amateur in denial. :cool:

As pilots (adults) we need the discipline to keep learning without having to be dependent on others to direct us. Do you really need extra special training to maintain a cleared altitude? Know when or not to descend below an MSA? :ugh:

Actually, having flown in both regions, I have found that Australians are MUCH more conversant with the rules and aviation law than Europeans. This is simply because they spend years in GA referring to the AIP & Civil Aviation Orders directly (due to GA company Ops Manuals being of a generally poor standard).

Only on the Dunnunder forum here can you find 10 page discussions on alternate minima or lighting requirements. :ok:

If you ask 10 UK airline pilots the five valid situations in which you may descend below the LSALT in the UK AIP you won't get a single correct answer. All they know is their own Ops Manual SOPS - and those are generally formed on the basis of "ILS to "ILS" flying.

Your post makes obvious the fact you have no idea what I said, and you have no idea of what you talk about.

However, I do commend you on successfully proving that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. :hmm:
Actually I thought it a damned funny reply - which also showed a surprisingly good understanding of the Aus scene! :} :p

[Major Cleve Saville]

Hi checkboard,

Thanks I got my irony and sarcasm confused again, Doh!

I would agree on the regs. once on the commercial scene in the UK, especially post JAR-OPS / EU-OPS, the ops manuals should reflect regulations, you can of course be more restrictive but not less restrictive than EU-OPS.

The only times I have referred to regs in the last 30 years is when writing manuals, the AOC system , quality system, internal and regulatory audits should pick up any non-compliances. Never had a problem with the UK CAA either, if you stick to EU-OPS never any argument. Always had confidence in the system and never found that by following company SOPS I was breaking the law. Following the ops manuals equals fireproof anyway under this system.

Out in other parts of the world I have found some places to be a bit more like your GA pilots, having to check ICAO annexes etc. Very tiresome and unneccesary.

Not sure I recognise the ILS to ILS stuff. Within the UK maybe but a lot of my flying around europe has been CAT C, CAT B airfields short narrow runways with significant weather problems, and the usual Greek Islands etc. lots of procedural flying in non-radar environments as well. Definately need how to read a chart and when you can descend.

Not sure a 10 page discussion on alternate minima is necessarily healthy, I would have thought post the relevant regulation and end of discussion? In my opinion there should not be that much doubt/uncertainty. Surely GA with its low experience is where most clear unequivocable guidance is required. Shame if companys are putting young in-experienced guys/girls out on a limb, and getting away with it - discuss?

[TIMA9X]

iMB_KWtUBOU

For those who haven't seen it yet...Not a convincing interview from TD :rolleyes:

[inkogneetoe]

I see aviationjobsearch has Maintrol openings advertised for Tiger in Melbourne,was posted on the 6th. Would Tiger HR continue on recruiting while their Australian future is dark??

[Donalduck]

Would Tiger continue to sell tickets when they aren't viable? Pfft!

[fmgc]

I am astounded at the xenophobia going on here.

An airline in a certain country may be unsafe but it doesn't mean that all the airlines in that country are.

Chief Execs may come from a certain country but that does not make them :mad:

Does make for fun reading though!

[FLIGHT MODE]

Rumour has it the Tiger captain in question was responsible for both incidents and that he was having personal issues.


Very experienced pilot .......ex long haul with reputable carrier....

Carefull eveyone it can happen to you.

[elrehab]

if the pilot was having issues, he should not be flying a plane and putting people's lives at risk.

[RobShan]

At the risk of concentrating even more attention on the two low flying incidents rather than underlying issues, here is the link to the ATSB preliminary report (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2011/aair/ao-2011-076.aspx) into the second incident near Avalon.

[Major Cleve Saville]

ATSB verdict: no threat to safety at Avalon !

Tiger incident at Avalon 'no threat' (http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-incident-at-avalon-no-threat-20110713-1he3t.html)

[Postman-LEJ]

thats just brilliant for me... i was supposed to start ground school...and iv been on hold, . im totally disappointed at tiger and the way they operate, seriously forget being a customer, tigers ruined my career and others who are in the same position as me...tiger needs to be more ethical and responsible.

Stop whining! The world does not revolve around you. Be gratful that you were not involved.

If you career is "ruined" by this, you didn't have much of one waiting in the first place.

[Postman-LEJ]

Major Cleve, you are one uninformed idiot.....Australian pilots arent the issue, its the training behind the whole thing well who's the i..t here? The guys screwed up big time. No training will protect against brainfarts or recklessness.

Crying about the naughty computer not having the same data as on the charts ain't saving them either. Take the more conservative!

The politics that come afterwards are out of every proportion! As always. So don't upset the politicians by being 500 feet low. It's embarrassing to us all!

[LeadSled]

Yup they more or less have never lost a hull.Less rather than more ----- just that there have been no hull losses involving larger jet transports --- but it is such a small fleet, that the "statistical" results are not statistically significant.

If you bother to go back over all the serious incidents to high capacity jet transports (by Australian definition of HC) involving VH- registered aircraft, there have been some bloody close shaves.

There has been no shortage of fatal accidents to piston and turboprop RPT aircraft.

Tootle pip!!

[LeadSled]

You have to remember that Australian aviation is like Australian wildlife, it has developed differently and is inhabited by creatures generally pretty venomous.Major,

Sadly, I am forced to agree with you.

About the only statement that Mick Toller made, when he was CEO of CASA, with which I agree, was a statement to the effect:
"Australia is an aviation Galapagos, with all sort of strange mutations developing in splendid isolation".

The Australian aviation laws are as good an example as you can get, by word count or volume, they are incontestably the world's "biggest and best" , and they mean whatever your CASA FOI or AWI wants them to mean.

Anal in the extreme. The reason there are pages of arguments about the meanings of Australia regulations on the Australian forums is not because of deficiencies in Australian Ops. Manuals in general, but because of the conflicts, contradictions and complexity of Australian "regulation".

Tootle pip!!

[Rollingthunder]

Your new CEO talks total prat from a teleprompter accordinging to some company line. (There are no tigers in Oz unless locked up in zoos)..

[Shell Management]

"Australia is an aviation Galapagos, with all sort of strange mutations developing in splendid isolation".

The Australian aviation laws are as good an example as you can get, by word count or volume, they are incontestably the world's "biggest and best" , and they mean whatever your CASA FOI or AWI wants them to mean.


Very true!;)

Any more news on the problems and their solution?:confused:

[altonacrude]

Australians who want to be adventurous don't become airline pilots. They become ambulance drivers:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4011/4289608148_a6e261bbb1_z.jpg?zz=1

This ambulance is following standard operating procedures by driving on the wrong side of the road, and is about to crash through a red light.

[Oh Me Oh My]

In the simplest of terms "You pay peanuts, you get monkeys"
and then to keep getting the peanuts the monkeys are willing to jump through all the company hoops including the ones that are on fire.

This not only extends to their pilot training that is notoriuosly sub standard but the maintenance system which is not enforced in any way shape or form by the airline itself and has the staff themselves concerned at the safeness of their own airline.

Let me spell it out clearly if CASA the penultimate toothless and apparently extinct tasmanian tiger has grounded them for so long without repreive there is something very rotten in the state of Denmark

[ReverseFlight]

Tiger Airways to get all-clear to fly today (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-airways-to-get-allclear-to-fly-today-20110810-1ilop.html)
The six-week grounding of Tiger Airways Australia is expected to be lifted today by the aviation safety authority, a day ahead of tomorrow's scheduled Federal Court hearing.
But realistically it could take the airline time to get back into the air, in order to sell seats and ready pilots, cabin crew, support staff and airliners for duty.

[Trevor the lover]

hey me oh my

what is your evidence of 'their training being notoriously sub standard"?

sounds like an idiotically uninformed comment from a bonehead baboon on the sidelines

[ReverseFlight]

Tiger Airways gets OK to resume flights | CASA lifts ban (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/tiger-airways-given-allclear-to-resume-flights-20110810-1ilop.html)
The six-week grounding of Tiger Airways Australia has ended, with the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) today lifting the ban on the airline ... CASA has imposed conditions on Tiger's pilot training, crew rostering, updating document control manuals (the airline's reference materials) improving safety management systems and maintenance oversight and the appointment of suitably qualified and experienced senior personnel.

[Dani]

Of course they would get the flying license back - now that the holiday season is over...

[Lookleft]

Dani- Its winter south of the equator so there is not much of a holiday season. The busy time down here is from November to January.

[Dani]

Maybe it's just me, but when I walk through the streets of Darwin I would say the tourist season is during the dry season, which is now.

Although this year the Aussie Dollar is too expensive for backpackers...

[ReverseFlight]

CASA's conditions do not include flying to Darwin (yet).
Perhaps there's no discernible seasonal difference anyway:
Tiger Airways resumes flights | First flight after grounding (http://www.theage.com.au/travel/travel-news/roaring-to-life-tiger-returns-to-the-skies-20110812-1ipxq.html)
"...sales are very strong, the forward bookings are coming in now..."

[Andu]

How many (paying) punters did they get for their first MEL-SYD flight today?

[Lookleft]

Australia is a very big country, a point noted when Tiger got the BMIbaby bloke as a CEO. Most of the country is experiencing winter so the locals don't go on holiday until the southern summer when most of the domestic travel season falls. The airlines also state thats when they make most of their money. As an aside Tiger withdrew from the Darwin market domestically very quickly as there is not much yield.

[skyhawkmatthew]

How many (paying) punters did they get for their first MEL-SYD flight today?

They showed some footage from on board on the news last night (Tony Davis meeting and greeting as you do) - looked like it was almost empty, maybe 20%?

[PoppaJo]

One CASA demand is that all flights are capped at 144.

Last nights flights were full, two outbound ML-SY are full this morning also.

[500N]

"As an aside Tiger withdrew from the Darwin market domestically very quickly as there is not much yield."

That's interesting, every time I fly to or from Darwin (Qantas or Jetstar only) it's full both ways, which ever route I take.

[david1300]

@Lookleft - don't know where you are in Australia, but Qld has full-on holiday season in midwinter. Here on the Gold Coast we have tourists from Melbourne (particularly), Sydney and New Zillund. Everywhere north of here is the same. Melbourne/Gold Coast was/is one of Tigers most heavily patronised routes, and I agree with the cynical comments earlier regarding the holiday season - very convenient for other carriers that the Tiger grounding happened over the hiloday season.

[Lookleft]

Giving the conspiracy theory any credance at all then the best time to have shut them down would have been just before Easter or Christmas which is the busiest time of the year in Oz. Yes there are still people travelling during the winter time but most people travel domestically during our summer time because that is when most people take their holidays. This is the reason that Jetstar want to introduce part-time pilots to cope with the seasonal variation. The low point being June July August. It also coincides with what the Europeans would laugh at and we call a ski season. There is no jet RPT in Australia to our "ski resorts".

[500N]

Re "How many passengers asked for refunds for this coming week? "

Australians are tight arse's, they would fly a Russian Airline in Australia
if it was cheaper.

[porch monkey]

Sadly, What he said!

[HO74IR]

Being rostered in Melb usually sees me fly down weekly with Virgin, however with the return close on $500 instead of the usual $270 I was pleased to give my business to a much needed competitor. Tiger staff were on their toes and doing their best, even the non Tiger ground based Aerocare staff were helpful(a change ! ) - all good. The jump in fares with VA on the Sydney Melbourne sector makes me think a good competitor is badly needed. Let's hope Tiger are now up to it without hiccups.

[peterc005]

Dito. The Virgin Blue Mel-Syd shot up when Tiger was grounded. Need some more competition.

The cheapest return fare last Tuesday cost me $588, almost twice as much as earlier this year.

Jetstar Mel-Syd was even dearer then Virgin Blue. :mad:

[Phalanger]

You also have to remember that when one airline pulls out you end up with less capacity on the route. So even with the same ticket prices you will end up with high prices because there is more people going for the same number of cheaper ones.