CRM, who is a danger?

[standby standby]

Would a manager with no CRM training be as much of a risk as a member of the crew with no CRM training?

[BOAC]

Are you talking about Company Resource Management or Crew Resource Management (CRM) and, of course, what sort of 'manager'?

[standby standby]

Crew resource management, for an ops manager.

[BOAC]

Totally unnecessary I would think. Mind you, it depends on what an 'Ops Manager' does in your world. Perhaps you can tell us?.

[fesmokie]

If the Op's manager is working as a Crewmember then he Should have the same training as well as CRM training. What would make him so "Special" as to Not have CRM training in the first place!

[standby standby]

police aviation

[paco]

Given that the behaviour of staff is a reflection of the management, of course he would. In my experience, management and customers need CRM training more than pilots do.

[alf5071h]

paco :ok:

If CRM is the ‘application of Human Factors’; then whether crew or not, any individual interfacing with crew would benefit from human factors knowledge.

However, lack of knowledge is not inherently a risk; check the circumstances and realistic consequences within the operation / specific tasks.

[verticalhold]

Paco:D

When ops don't understand the stress they place on pilots then CRM training becomes vital for the office staff. And don't start me about the board of directors:ugh::ugh:

[BOAC]

No, vertical - it isn't. It all depends on what the manager is doing. 'CRM' as we know it sits in a very tight arena where interaction in a moving machine is concerned. It involves all sorts of processes like decision making, allocation of duties, awareness of personal issues like tiredness, illness, stress etc ALL related to the task of operating an aircraft.

'Managing' an operation on the ground involves many of these factors too, but in a totally different arena and requires quite different skills. Until s-s tells us a bit more about the 'job' this manager will be doing, how close to an aircraft he/she will routinely get, I cannot see any need for a 'Crew Resource' qualification here. Recognising that the work force are being 'stressed' is a management skill taught in a different school..

[CaptBernie]

If that manager is involved with operational control, s/he needs to be a participant in CRM. CRM is more than just an acronym, it is a way of doing business, a way of assuring good communication without those barriers that prevent clear and safe crew performance and positive outcomes.

[AvMed.IN]

Anyone involved with aviation activities, in air or supporting from ground, must be CRM trained, and if not CRM trained, at least sensitised about it, including the Ops Manager. After all, team work is the essence (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/teamwork-the-essence-of-safe-operations/) of aviation safety.

[framer]

Management need to have an understanding of how their decisions can create links in error chains. So do Ops controllers, so do refuellers and engineers etc etc. Decisions about how many staff are employed, training given, mixed fleets, fatigue management,maintenance spending, fuel policies, SOP's, can all create foundation links. Being aware of the anatomy of an accident is a good place to start. CRM training will give them this.

[mountain-goat]

I would go a stage further... CRM should be included in most business management schools core subjects. Situational awareness, team integration, set and specific tasks, 'ageism' / seniority / cultural differences / arrogance / hierarchy / social class et al combined with a safety critical environment lend themselves very well to the outside world of management. The worst a trader / banker can do is sink a bank / lose his/her job even end up in jail versus literally crashing and burning with the souls on board. You don’t have to be an Aero-head to understand having a fuller picture of influences will provide a decision taker with greater scope to make the correct move or implement the most appropriate strategy.

One of the mundane but initially most important tasks a multi-crew undertake (on entering a cockpit) is ergonomically align (seat adjustment) their eyes to take into consideration their natural blind spots and increase their peripheral vision (for scanning). As an analogy Managers without it (CRM understanding) simply can’t in my opinion all have their peripheral vision optimised to take in all pending or potential influences of a specific task nor all have the necessary skills to get the message across to their personnel in a succinct and qualitative manner based on differences from the factors listed in the first sentence.

CRM should start in the boardroom. :ok:

[BOAC]

Management need to have an understanding of how their decisions can create links in error chains. - that is why there are fleet managers and safety managers. They should be the safety valves. Then you have the Captains with the balls (sorry ladies) to recognise a stupid decision and negate it, and if that link is broken you have (multi-crew) the rest of the crew chain of command..

CRM does start in the boardroom - it is called Company R M and most managers do it.

[Tee Emm]

Anyone involved with aviation activities, in air or supporting from ground, must be CRM trained,If the Allies had waited until all pilots, navigators, radio operators, air gunners and bombardiers had completed CRM courses, the war would have already been over.:ok:
CRM is the greatest cottage industry con ever foisted upon aircrew. Zillions of $ have been made by eager beaver facilitators in dark briefing rooms on their Power Points, preaching to a captive audience of bored fartless pilots.

Seriously - my guess is the greater majority of pilots quietly accept CRM lectures as just another regulatory box to be ticked and then they get on with plain old fashioned common-sense in the cockpit

[Tmbstory]

Tee Emm:

It is like everything, good and bad points. It is not the be all to end all.

Flying needs common sense decisions from the Captain and the First Officer and the Captain is the one finally responsible for the safety of the Aircraft.

Tmb

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

Marvellous...

This thread shines a light on the failings of the mystical world created by the CRM-believers. TEe-emm and Tmbstory have it right, but degraded conditions mean that the number of flight decks in which common sense decisions are made is on the decline.

[Kerling-Approsh KG]

By the way, a question for BOAC if I may:


You mention Safety Managers... How does divorcing safety management from operational management benefit the operation?

[BOAC]

KA-KG - how is it 'divorced'? Normally the safety chain has (or should have) a direct report channel to the DFO. That is 'O' for 'Operations'. Seems pretty 'wedded' to me!

[A37575]

This from an experienced pilot starting with a new airline several years ago. What walking around blindfolded and holding hands has to do with flight safety, I simply don't know. You tell me.


"I'll never forget doing that 2 day CRM course. It was a total farce. The last exercise (boxes needed to be ticked) involved all 20 of us being blind-folded - the objective to group hug based on being given a silent, personal number. No one was allowed to speak their number, the theory being we would all eventually link up (arms on shoulders) 1 through to 20. The course teacher was a former flight attendant".

[BOAC]

Would any of the 'pro-CRM' lobby on this thread kindly explain the (presumably obvious) benefits to an Ops Manager (Police Aviation) of being subjected to that farce?

[Non Zero]

Considering the required level of flexibility of modern ops, the constantly upgrading communication technology and the inevitable tendency toward a net-centric management ... CRM courses are a really good and unique opportunity to see face-to-face your chain of command at least once a year ... maybe in a nice and exotic location. Of course different every year. Thanks!

[+TSRA]

BOAC

If the ops manager also acts as a line pilot from time to time, then the obvious need for CRM training is met by the fact that all crew members require it.

However, if the ops manager no longer holds a licence or is not a pilot at all, then their attendance at a CRM course may be detremental, as I've seen myself. CRM should allow discussion on the difficulties faced by crew and how to overcome those issues - very hard to do, especially for new guys, when the boss is right there.

CRM, in it's "Crew" format, should be tailored, IMO, to the flight crew only (pilots, F/A and in some companies, dispatchers).
Diluting it to non-flying employees or those with no operational concerns to the actual flight creates a situation where the course applies to everyone, but benefits no one. I've seen this at my own company and am on the development team for our new courses, which we are taking in this direction.

Also, if anyone gets the chance to look at or take the C\L\R course (Command, Leadership, Resource Management) that united airlines (and others) put on - do it! It's a refreshing take on the CRM concept that is much more applicable to that "flight crew" group I mentioned earlier.