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CRM, who is a danger?

Old 1st Jul 2011, 18:51
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CRM, who is a danger?

Would a manager with no CRM training be as much of a risk as a member of the crew with no CRM training?
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Old 2nd Jul 2011, 08:57
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Are you talking about Company Resource Management or Crew Resource Management (CRM) and, of course, what sort of 'manager'?
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Old 2nd Jul 2011, 14:10
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Crew resource management, for an ops manager.
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Old 2nd Jul 2011, 15:01
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Totally unnecessary I would think. Mind you, it depends on what an 'Ops Manager' does in your world. Perhaps you can tell us?.
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Old 2nd Jul 2011, 15:37
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If the Op's manager is working as a Crewmember then he Should have the same training as well as CRM training. What would make him so "Special" as to Not have CRM training in the first place!

Last edited by fesmokie; 2nd Jul 2011 at 16:06.
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Old 2nd Jul 2011, 19:48
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police aviation
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Old 3rd Jul 2011, 04:47
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Given that the behaviour of staff is a reflection of the management, of course he would. In my experience, management and customers need CRM training more than pilots do.
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Old 3rd Jul 2011, 14:03
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paco

If CRM is the ‘application of Human Factors’; then whether crew or not, any individual interfacing with crew would benefit from human factors knowledge.

However, lack of knowledge is not inherently a risk; check the circumstances and realistic consequences within the operation / specific tasks.
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Old 4th Jul 2011, 07:53
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Paco

When ops don't understand the stress they place on pilots then CRM training becomes vital for the office staff. And don't start me about the board of directors
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Old 4th Jul 2011, 16:27
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No, vertical - it isn't. It all depends on what the manager is doing. 'CRM' as we know it sits in a very tight arena where interaction in a moving machine is concerned. It involves all sorts of processes like decision making, allocation of duties, awareness of personal issues like tiredness, illness, stress etc ALL related to the task of operating an aircraft.

'Managing' an operation on the ground involves many of these factors too, but in a totally different arena and requires quite different skills. Until s-s tells us a bit more about the 'job' this manager will be doing, how close to an aircraft he/she will routinely get, I cannot see any need for a 'Crew Resource' qualification here. Recognising that the work force are being 'stressed' is a management skill taught in a different school..
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Old 5th Jul 2011, 04:04
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If that manager is involved with operational control, s/he needs to be a participant in CRM. CRM is more than just an acronym, it is a way of doing business, a way of assuring good communication without those barriers that prevent clear and safe crew performance and positive outcomes.
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Old 23rd Jul 2011, 13:03
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Anyone involved with aviation activities, in air or supporting from ground, must be CRM trained, and if not CRM trained, at least sensitised about it, including the Ops Manager. After all, team work is the essence of aviation safety.
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Old 1st Aug 2011, 06:50
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Management need to have an understanding of how their decisions can create links in error chains. So do Ops controllers, so do refuellers and engineers etc etc. Decisions about how many staff are employed, training given, mixed fleets, fatigue management,maintenance spending, fuel policies, SOP's, can all create foundation links. Being aware of the anatomy of an accident is a good place to start. CRM training will give them this.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 09:11
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CRM should start in the boardroom.

I would go a stage further... CRM should be included in most business management schools core subjects. Situational awareness, team integration, set and specific tasks, 'ageism' / seniority / cultural differences / arrogance / hierarchy / social class et al combined with a safety critical environment lend themselves very well to the outside world of management. The worst a trader / banker can do is sink a bank / lose his/her job even end up in jail versus literally crashing and burning with the souls on board. You don’t have to be an Aero-head to understand having a fuller picture of influences will provide a decision taker with greater scope to make the correct move or implement the most appropriate strategy.

One of the mundane but initially most important tasks a multi-crew undertake (on entering a cockpit) is ergonomically align (seat adjustment) their eyes to take into consideration their natural blind spots and increase their peripheral vision (for scanning). As an analogy Managers without it (CRM understanding) simply can’t in my opinion all have their peripheral vision optimised to take in all pending or potential influences of a specific task nor all have the necessary skills to get the message across to their personnel in a succinct and qualitative manner based on differences from the factors listed in the first sentence.

CRM should start in the boardroom.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 10:31
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Originally Posted by framer
Management need to have an understanding of how their decisions can create links in error chains.
- that is why there are fleet managers and safety managers. They should be the safety valves. Then you have the Captains with the balls (sorry ladies) to recognise a stupid decision and negate it, and if that link is broken you have (multi-crew) the rest of the crew chain of command..

CRM does start in the boardroom - it is called Company R M and most managers do it.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 12:50
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Anyone involved with aviation activities, in air or supporting from ground, must be CRM trained,
If the Allies had waited until all pilots, navigators, radio operators, air gunners and bombardiers had completed CRM courses, the war would have already been over.
CRM is the greatest cottage industry con ever foisted upon aircrew. Zillions of $ have been made by eager beaver facilitators in dark briefing rooms on their Power Points, preaching to a captive audience of bored fartless pilots.

Seriously - my guess is the greater majority of pilots quietly accept CRM lectures as just another regulatory box to be ticked and then they get on with plain old fashioned common-sense in the cockpit
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 15:50
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CRM Value or ?

Tee Emm:

It is like everything, good and bad points. It is not the be all to end all.

Flying needs common sense decisions from the Captain and the First Officer and the Captain is the one finally responsible for the safety of the Aircraft.

Tmb
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 20:18
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Marvellous...

This thread shines a light on the failings of the mystical world created by the CRM-believers. TEe-emm and Tmbstory have it right, but degraded conditions mean that the number of flight decks in which common sense decisions are made is on the decline.
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Old 2nd Aug 2011, 20:22
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By the way, a question for BOAC if I may:


You mention Safety Managers... How does divorcing safety management from operational management benefit the operation?
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Old 3rd Aug 2011, 12:08
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KA-KG - how is it 'divorced'? Normally the safety chain has (or should have) a direct report channel to the DFO. That is 'O' for 'Operations'. Seems pretty 'wedded' to me!
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