Near miss on JFK runway

[ORAC]

New York Post: Near miss on JFK runway (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/near_miss_on_jfk_runway_kLWyQHsO3KS1ncroiRTx6J) Jumbo jets seconds from tragic hit

A Lufthansa jumbo jet speeding toward takeoff was forced to a screeching halt on a Kennedy Airport runway to avoid a catastrophic collision with an EgyptAir plane that made a wrong turn into its path, sources told The Post.

"Cancel take off! Cancel take off plans!" yelled a frightened air controller who saw that the Munich-bound Lufthansa Airbus A340 was headed toward a collision with an Egypt Air Boeing 777 at around 6:50 p.m. Monday.

"Lufthansa 411 heavy is rejecting takeoff," the pilot radioed back.

The aborted liftoff came as the German airliner was steaming down Runway 22R, where an EgyptAir plane was precariously perched less than a mile away, officials said.

"Those two were coming together," radioed an unidentified pilot who witnessed the near-disaster.

A few minutes later, a pilot aboard a Virgin America flight arriving from Los Angeles piped in: "That was quite a show."

The Lufthansa plane was cleared for takeoff seconds before the incident. Its pilots had to slam the brakes so hard, they worried they had become dangerously hot.

"It was close," said an air-control source who believes the EgyptAir flight ended up in the path of the Lufthansa jet after its crew took a wrong turn.

Officials could not say how close the two planes came to colliding. FAA spokeswoman Holly Baker said it might take few days for investigators to sort out some of the basic details of the incident................

[dontdoit]

Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.

[Basil]

precariously perched (if it wasn't so serious I'd be . . )
steaming down Runway 22R (and there was I thinking jets were internal combustion engines)

So, not a NY Times report then?

I have to agree with dontdoit that JFK ATCOs do, at times, seem to have watched too many aviation movie dramas.

[d71146]

That's very true me thinks.

[Lberto]

A Lufthansa jumbo jet speeding toward takeoff was forced to a screeching halt on a Kennedy Airport runway to avoid a catastrophic collision with an EgyptAir plane that made a wrong turn into its path, sources told The Post.

Been on this flight on 6/11/11 , BTW as far as I know "the" Jumbo Jet is the Boeing 747 only , my plane was an A340/600

[Squawk_ident]

I've read the AV Herald some hours ago about it. Really frightening. Might have been another Tenerife disaster. I think the NTSB will open an inquiry very soon.
Well done from ATC and DLH crew

[HM79]

Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.
22nd Jun 2011 05:01
have to agree with dontdoit that JFK ATCOs do, at times, seem to have watched too many aviation movie dramas.


How about alerting a full A346 that a B773 captain has entered the departure runway accidentally?
Does that make a good controller?

Or wait, let me guess he just got lucky.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

What garbage..

[aterpster]

dontdoit:

Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.

Not to mention third world pilots who can't avoid taxiing onto the active runway without a clearance to do so.

[WHBM]

Presumably the normal JFK standard of impressing your colleagues with your words-per-minute rate :

"Lufthansa123ClearedTakeoff22RightAmerican456LineUp22RightEgy ptair789TaxiZuluViaDeltaMikeNovemberRomeoAmerican456 .....".

[lomapaseo]

ignorant opinionated blame game response to an alarmest newspaper quote.

This is no longer suitable for R&N :ugh:

[Lonewolf_50]

Would it be appropriate to tip one's cap to the controller for catching a developing dangerous situation and making the timely call?

*tips cap*

People make mistakes now and again, be it the EgyptAir crew perhaps making a wrong turn, or his controller perhaps giving him a "not quite right" set of instructions.

That other set of eyes is there, catches an error, and has the SA to see what was up, and act. I see this as a good news story. :ok:

[Rananim]

Agree with Lomapaseo.We cant know.JFK controllers are very good but are an acquired taste.They wont suffer fools gladly.Theres no mollycoddling.

[Capt Groper]

Ok this was a near disaster averted by quick ATC reactions.

However, as many non-native English (US) flight crew operate into JFK, ATC RT to these operators needs to shorter, slower, understandable and requiring a response (read back) to confirm understanding.

The procedure of transmitting to 3 A/C in one transmission maybe OK for local operators who taxi the same route daily and are local wise.

Greater understanding of how non-native English speakers decode JFK RT transmission would provide greater insight on potential misunderstandings.

Waving the ICAO RT Phraseology text book isn’t always going to fix this sort of problem. In some areas of the world non ICAO RT is the norm and possibly the best way to communicate, less confusing for ATC.

Active Listening is an answer;
Active listening has several benefits. First, it forces people to listen attentively to others. Second, it avoids misunderstandings, as people have to confirm that they do really understand what another person has said. http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/peace/treatment/activel.htm


:ugh:

[JackRalston]

YouTube - ‪JFK Near Miss - New York POst‬‏

wow :uhoh:

[ST27]

There was a post on the AF447 thread asking why the media isn't respected by those in aviation. Here is a perfect example. Yes, it is a story that originated in the New York Post, a publication not known for objectivity, but other media outlets carried the story, often adding their own sensationalist slant to what the post used.

CBS proclaimed that the controllers "screamed" at the Lufthansa pilot. Listen for yourself, does this sound like screaming?

On tape: frantic controllers call off takeoff - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/06/22/earlyshow/main20073243.shtml)

The various reports state that the aircraft was "speeding" to takeoff, "steaming" down the runway, and that the aircraft came to a "screeching" halt, yet the controller told the pilot to "cancel takeoff plans". It sounds more like he had just started to roll, and when did you last hear an aircraft brakes screech, other than the occasional juddering? The FAA said afterwards that the two aircraft stopped a good distance apart. The LH couldn't have been anywhere near V1, as implied by the news reports, though it did to a rejected takeoff brake inspection before heading for takeoff again.

Yes, runway incursions are serious business, but there is no need to build up the story with sensationalist blather.

[JackRalston]

Couldn't agree with you more ST27. I do get annoyed at the media's continuous decision to over-hype any incident regardless of how minor or how major (in this case) it is.

Simple things such as during on American News Channels broadcast about the recently discovered findings from the AF447 black boxes (I think either CBS or FOX) they kept referring to the 'Airbus A330' as a 'Jumbo Jet'. Why can't they just have someone on call in the Aviation industry to confirm and provide the basic information for incidents.

Also an incident closer to home was the Thomson 738 incident at Newcastle Airport last year when they said it went off the runway and continued to emphasise that 'no-one was injured'. Of course no one was seeing as the airport never went off the runway, it continued onto the overrun area and the pilot was more than happy to turn.

I'll stop ranting... :ugh:

[Moe Syzlak]

Well, On that audio link there is NO take off clearance. Lufty responds with "line up and wait 22R inital altitude 4000' ". Next thing is "cancel take off plans" from ATC (seems a bit arcane but it worked ok)

[Moe Syzlak]

Yeah yeah but IS the tape continuous or have bits been edited??

[JackRalston]

@Moe Syzlak It's probably been edited, at least that's what it appears like to me

[Lonewolf_50]

From the folks at CBS news. Not sure of accuracy.

- Federal authorities are investigating.

- According to the FAA, EgyptAir Flight 986 was instructed to stay behind a "hold line," 250 feet behind the runway.

- FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen says the EgyptAir pilot failed to stay behind the line, but didn't enter the runway.

- Bergen says the Lufthansa plane stopped "a considerable distance" from the EgyptAir jet.

I am guessing the reporter means "hold short line" in second bullet.

[Moe Syzlak]

I hope so for luftys sake

[forget]

Lufty? I'm guessing this is spotter-speak for Lufthansa. :rolleyes:

[Basil]

It sounds more like he had just started to roll
and got hot brakes?

[Capot]

When a ATC unit fell within my area of responsibility, its ATC recorders were in a locked room. Following any incident which may call for later investigation, an authorised personl would enter the room, remove and impound the media, and install fresh media. The impounded media were then kept under tight security. After all, they may provide the only hard evidence in a criminal case.

Are security and confidentiality no longer important?

Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?

In either case, a prosecution should follow.

[JW411]

In my three years at JFK this scenario was always one of my worries. 22L and 22R are quite close together. 22L is the relatively short landing runway and 22R is the longer take-off runway. It is necessary to cross 22R after landing to get to any ramp.

If an aircraft landing on 22L is told "Hold short 22R Change Point 9" and then takes some time to change frequency and who's native language is not native New York (never mind English), then it was always a little bit of a worry to me if I was departing from 22R.

I cannot tell you the number of times that I have set off down 22R and watched the traffic coming off 22L and thought to myself "I hope they do exactly what they have been told to do otherwise it could just get a trifle messy".

[PT6A]

Capot,

It was a private recording, it is perfectly legal to listen to and record ATC in the US.

I agree the recording is missing parts of the conversation though.

[kotakota]

I used to fly into JFK in the 90s , and the place scared the hell out of me , even after years of flying 3rd world . I think we all expect the great airports of the Western world to be amazing places to fly into , easy even , but JFK was weird in its gung-ho attitude , typified by its handling of the Concorde . I had a BIG RA event there in our 747 with a Shorts in front of us in heavy rain , no attempt to give us speeds to fly or any info regarding types etc . While we were sorting out the G/A in our -200 we were treated to repeated bleatings about us not reporting it etc . Subsequent reports of near-misses with go-arounds from 22 just missing departures from 13 have never surprised me - only the fact that YET again they have got away with it.
Murphys Law rules.

[SeenItAll]

The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/archive.php). Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2230-2300Z time segment. Exchanges begin at about the 20:00 point into the half hour segment. While some bits may be missing, it appears that at about 20:45 Lufthansa is cleared onto the runway. At 22:40 an American flight is cleared onto the runway, and about five seconds later Lufthansa is order to cancel its takeoff.

Because Lufthansa must have started its takeoff roll at least 10 or 20 seconds before the American is cleared into position, it had to have gained substantial speed. This appears to be confirmed both by Lufthansa's subsequent concern over hot brakes, and based on comments made by several other aircraft on the frequency that what had just happened was a pretty heart-stopping show.

On the Gnd-Twr feed, there are a few interactions with Egyptair, but they are too garbled and cut-off for me to discern what directions it was given.

[ST27]

Either this was a recording made by someone illegally (and partially?) recording ATC traffic, or it really is a recording released by ATC. I wonder which?

In either case, a prosecution should follow. Here is a link to over 500 live ATC feeds, provided by enthusiasts from around the world:

All Airport Feeds | Live Air Traffic Control Audio Feeds | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=all)

Listening in is perfectly legal, and it's dead easy to record the conversations on your computer.

In theory in the US, you aren't supposed to pass on what you hear, but it is rarely enforced for radio transmissions that are available to the general public, so there won't be any prosecution. Recording private mobile or cordless phone conversations and passing them around would be more likely to get someone in trouble.

The laws about radios vary around Europe, but in most countries enthusiasts regularly use radio scanners to monitor ATC conversations without being bothered by the police. In countries that have more restrictive laws, like Austria and Italy, they just try to be a bit less obvious when they use them. No problem in countries like the Netherlands or the UK.

I might add that some enthusiasts even record ACARS transmissions, and there are similar enthusiast groups that monitor railway communications, as well as those for shipping.

[ST27]

It sounds more like he had just started to roll

... and got hot brakes? What's LH's policy on aborted takeoffs? Do they require a mandatory brake inspection after any aborted takeoff, no matter what speed they attain? Do they have a minimum amount of time allowed before another takeoff attempt on a heavy? That might explain their actions after the incident.

I recall an incident years ago with a Wardair 747. They started the takeoff roll for an intercontinental flight, but aborted after some warnings came on. They then taxied to the gate for a quick maintenance fix, and then taxied to the runway for a second attempt. A number of tires blew on the second takeoff roll.

The investigation determined that because of a steady tailwind and slight downgrade to the departure runway, the crew had to ride the brakes while taxiing. The combination of two downhill trips to the active runway, plus the aborted takeoff was enough to overheat the brakes, even though the aircraft spent 30 to 45 minutes at the gate for the maintenance check. They changed their brake check procedures and extended cool-down times on heavies after that incident.

[Spitoon]

Not that it makes any difference to the situation but listening to the recording I think the controller said "Cancel take-off clearance", albeit tripping over the final word slightly.

[fireflybob]

I was interested in the RT phraseology "Cancel take-off" - is this standard ICAO phraseology?

I was under the impression that, in the UK, the phraseology was "Stop...." - any ATC care to clarify?

[Landroger]

I know the CBS 'talking head' said they; "nearly avoided" ..........

That means they did not avoid, doesn't it? :ugh:

I'll get me coat. :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Unless it's been recently changed, UK uses "Cancel take off" prior to a/c rolling and "Stop, etc" when it's moving.

[TangoLimaKilo]

I agree, he is definitely saying, "Cancel takeoff clearance."

[asc12]

LiveATC.net recordings are often confusing, even when unedited, because the recording device is usually connected to a scanner rather than just a single frequency. The jumping around is tough to follow, and you tend you miss things (like, hopefully, Lufthansa's TO clearance).

[archae86]

The ATC exchanges are recorded on LiveATC.net at ATC Audio Archives | LiveATC.net. Select either KJFK-Twr or KJFK-Gnd-Twr for Jun-20-2011 for 2200-2230Z time segment.
Actually that needs to be the 2230-2300Z time segment.

[JCviggen]

I know the CBS 'talking head' said they; "nearly avoided" ..........

That means they did not avoid, doesn't it?

And a near miss should really be a near hit..... /George Carlin

[hetfield]

Yeah, I'm wondering that these ultra smart PPRuNE mods didn't change the thread title.

If, for example, a civilian airliner is subject to military attack, they are very fast on to delete the whole subject....

[Eric T Cartman]

There's a thread open on the ATC Forum re this - but for info, from UK CAP493 Manual of Air Traffic Services Part 1 =
Cancelling take-off :
1) (A/c identity) hold position, Cancel take-off – I say again cancel takeoff – acknowledge. Aircraft has not commenced take-off.

2) (A/c identity) stop immediately – I say again (a/c identity) stop
immediately – acknowledge. Aircraft commenced take-off.

Don't know what the USA equivalent should be.

[heavy.airbourne]

Aborting T/O at about KIAS 100 in an A340 will give you about 100 minutes cooling time. Tried it myself.

[B737NG]

I am in JFK now and then and it is allways a mess. Gate blocked, alley blocked, Airplanes waiting everywhere. 30 Min after touchdown on 4R setting the brakes to get towed finaly onto the Gate.

Talking with Irish Pilots not a problem, they talk fast themselves. Having Colleagues with me who speak English in the optimum case as the second language at JFK is pure luck. It takes more time to repeat twice then speak slower and get the message thru the first time. Time consuming to speak fast three times as there is no time in JFK..... No space on the ground and construction ongoing the last 10 years. Landing off non precission approaches after a 10 to 14 hour trip is challenging if you hit all at once.

I had a RWY change from 13R to 22R recently and the same feeling when I looked left on the TWY for Airplanes taxiing towards 22R. Mentaly I am prepareing all odds on the T/O roll. Just in case. Glad when we have a few feet off the ground when someone taxies towards 22R after landing. He has no mirror.......

The Contoller see´s JFK day and night, we overseas customers now and then only and do not know the diffrent agenda of the day.

Thanks God that the Controller catched it and got the LH-Crew to listen and react in due time. Teneriffe was enough.

[grimmrad]

Only SLF here (FF with LH Miles and More) - but listening to the tape I do not hear any clearance... At 2045 they seem to say the length of runway required (?) but hate to say that I never hear "Clear for take-off"... Can someone correct me?

[SassyPilotsWife]

Are SOME of you guys seriously taking from this story, an opportunity to bitch about the proper and professional way ATC should have warned this crew to abandon take off? Seriously? Isn't the fact they did their job under duress which managed to avoid a near hit ? Work together guys! ATC reads these threads as well. And I'm certain those from JFK, LGA and Tieterboro are included. Excellent job ATC. As a pax and wife of a pilot, I wouldn't have cared if you had keyed up and said " STOP THE EFFIN PLANE !!!. Yes there needs to be a level of universal language and proper phraseology but no one is perfect. Especially in an emergency situation with the potential for catastrophe. I do remember a few years back on UAL flight from LAX to SFO and I was listening in on channel 9 and during takeoff I heard ATC say "UAL flt--- abort takeoff, you have traffic on the runway" I was on the R side of the a/c and about 2 seconds later a Delta a/c was seen taxing towards the runway parallel to us. I knew what was going on because I was listening but for those that didn't you heard a few gasp in the cabin. It was a close call and while it was ATC mistake most likely, ( I think that was the last time I chose to use LAX to non rev back home) they did get the crew's attention and saved a near hit.

[Ditchdigger]

Only SLF here (FF with LH Miles and More) - but listening to the tape I do not hear any clearance... At 2045 they seem to say the length of runway required (?) but hate to say that I never hear "Clear for take-off"... Can someone correct me?


It was touched upon earlier in this thread--Apparently the source of the audio is from LiveATC.net. The site's feeds come from scanners, and as such, more often than not, some parts of the story are lost, usually because the scanner is locked onto a different frequency at a particular moment. Such is most likely the case with the takeoff clearance in this instance.

From the opening post on this topic, there at LiveATC ( Cancelled take off Clearance - JFK | LiveATC.net (http://www.liveatc.net/forums/atcaviation-audio-clips/cancelled-take-off-clearance-jfk/) ):

I'm not sure what just happened I was just listening on JFK Tower and around 1050-1055z the controller shouted at Air China to cancel takeoff clearance, then proceeded to say all traffic is stopped. I'm not sure what happened, Air China rejected takeoff and returned to the ramp with hot brakes and someone started talking about the incident and the controller said "No need to talk about it on the air, we can all see what's going on here" and then he chuckled. I don't know how to pull up the audio, but if anyone is interested the rejected takeoff was at 1054z I believe. Happy listening

PS. I think it was Air China, the pilot had an Asian accent


Now, as has also been mentioned above, the news media has a very shallow depth of knowlege about aviation matters. (I'll suggest that anyone with even the most rudimentary knowlege of ATC phraseology wouldn't have mistaken "cancel takeoff clearance" for "cancel takeoff plans"), but it seems that they're well aware of the existence of the audio archives at LiveATC, because that's frequently the source of the sound bites that accompany any aviation incident related story.

What I wonder is this--if the pure happenstance at play had favored including Lufthansa's takeoff clearance in the audio feed, but eliminated the frantic "Cancel takeoff clearance!", would this story have even seen the light of day? :confused:

I also have to agree that it's a little pedantic, given the potential consequences averted, to gig the controller for improper phraseology here...

[cresmer]

Listen to the tapes, as I have. The ATC's English is atrocious. Note how BA carefully and slowly repeat what ATC have uttered.

[WHBM]

Why can't the JFK gabblers be sent over to London Heathrow (or I am sure many other airports around the world with a high proportion of foreign traffic) to hear how it should be done.

As a pax and wife of a pilot, I wouldn't have cared if you had keyed up and said " STOP THE EFFIN PLANE !!!. Yes there needs to be a level of universal language and proper phraseology but no one is perfect. Especially in an emergency situation with the potential for catastrophe.You should listen to the ATC (it's doubtless still somewhere on the web) from the accident to the landing BA 777 at Heathrow a couple of years ago, dealing with an actual sudden crash on the airfield, comms with the accident aircraft, sending the following landers round, etc. All the situations you describe and more. But immaculate phraseology at all times, all calm, clear and well enunciated. A real credit to the team.

[Weapons Grade]

WHBM: "JFK gabblers"? Very condescending and insulting of you :=. I certainly appreciate what and how JFK ATC handle the traffic in/out/around/on JFK, EWR and LGA. It's their way of doing business.

I have been operating long haul into JFK for over 14 years, and by all accounts, it is a challenge but that is what I like about JFK.

As the saying goes: "If you can make it in New York, then you can make it anywhere". Hell, that might even apply to ATC.

Cresmer: As the title suggests - it ain't English, it's New York ATC. PLEASE don't make BA the starring example, as BA is ALWAYS slow :ugh:

Bottom line: JFK ATC recognised something going very pear-shaped, did something about it, by telling Lufthansa about it, thereby averting an accident. Did I miss something else? And yes, well done JFK ATC.:ok:

[fireflybob]

Maybe time to chill - these guys did good to stop a catastrophe - when you're in the hot seat, you have to make decisions in real time (unlike the bean counters) - what makes our professions in safety critical industries so stimulating - how boring life would be if it was all predictable.

[Shore Guy]

There are a few things that would/will help in the incursion issue.

(1) I believe all transport aircraft should be equipped with a surface moving map display. Current FAA regulations only allow this on a Class III EFB, an expensive proposition. Approval for Class II units (much less expensive) was to have been accomplished on the FAA "Fast Track", but, to my knowledge, has not occurred.

Just amazing when you think about it....take delivery of a new transport aircraft and fly anywhere in the world with navigation accuracy measured in meters, autoland in virtual zero visibility, and then the guidance for surface movement is a piece of paper and a compass.

(2) When all aircraft are ADS-B equipped, a true cockpit based incursion warning solution will be available. RTCA currently has a committee researching and setting standards for this. The current system of warning to ATC, determining the threat, and contacting the aircraft involved is too time consuming.

(3) Electronic (CPDLC) transmission of taxi clearance to be displayed on moving surface map. "Follow the magenta line". This is also being tested.

I will end with a question...does anyone know if this ATC save was from an ASDE-X warning, or visual observation from the tower?

[mary meagher]

Did somebody already mention on this thread the time of day of the occurrence?

Just having traveled as pax to a number of destinations in the US (LHR to Wash.Dulles to Austin TX to Wash Dulles to Orlando to Phila to NEWARK and back to LHR), at certain times of day both at Dulles and Philadelphia it is a ZOO out there! We taxied in a regional jet for 50 minutes for a 20 minute hop to Newark! And I noticed that all too often it is necessary for ATC to direct taxying aircraft across active runways.....

Add to the mix pilots for whom English as she is spoke in the colonies is not their first language, it is truly wonderful that the system works at all!

Anyway, for sheer beauty of design and comfort and security people who are efficient yet polite, give me Orlando any day.

[DA50driver]

I was going into Gatwick the other day and I could not for the life of me understand what the female director was trying to tell us. After the other pilot asked her twice to repeat and me once she got really irritated and vectored us for the approach. We are both pretty descent English (with a colonial twist) speakers.

It bothered me not understanding her. I think she was trying to tell us to join an arrival, but I was unsure, and I still am. (She had a sidetone in her transmissions that made her voice blend in. That is my story and I am sticking to it;).

[JCviggen]

Well he did say speakers

[Smilin_Ed]

Is there any indication as to just how close those two planes came to each other?:confused:

Is it worth all this talk?

[grimmrad]

Given the comments of the Virgin crew I think we can assume it was too close for comfort...

[lomapaseo]

Is there any indication as to just how close those two planes came to each other?http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

Is it worth all this talk?


The only thing that counts is reaction time in seconds given that a mistake happens and is discovered.

[eagleflyer]

Even if the distance between the aircraft was not THAT close, it would have been a whole lot different if the incursion had been recognized just 5 seconds later or so. The extra speed would have increased the distance to stop for the Lufthansa Airbus by quite a bit I would say. Good job by ATC and DLH Crew!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<And I noticed that all too often it is necessary for ATC to direct taxying aircraft across active runways.....>>

No.... really?? It happens all day, every day all over the world.

[Dutch Mill]

<<And I noticed that all too often it is necessary for ATC to direct taxying aircraft across active runways.....>>

No.... really?? It happens all day, every day all over the world.
Except in schiphol airport, netherlands, where they have complete taxiways around active runways, such as 18C. Why would they do that . . . ?

[Dunhovrin]

My two cents:

It was just before 1900L I think. I was sat on the gate and saw the Lufty slowing to a stop. I must admit my first though was he'd landed pretty briskly on 22R as he was just past G when he halted. But that's well short for a landing so we flicked up 123.9 in case it was an abort and heard "Lufthaaansa (sic) just stay there no need to comment on what you see in front". Then we saw the EgyptAir pulling on to J from B. It certainly didn't look like he'd crossed at J. But I'm not too sure.

ATC were telling Lufty he could vacate at his leisure, whatever he needed, everyone was really mellow. "Ve just need some time to check the brakes, but ve are fine". I have no idea what time he needed but he was still floating around JFK when we left an hour later. I reckon we would have needed about 45 minutes if we'd aborted at 100 knots, and I'm pretty sure he was slower than that.

I have to say in defence (defense?) of the JFK ATCers, and TRACON, they know what they want, they tell you so and if you tell them what you want in plain English, they accommodate. What they can't handle is "Err errr". You don't need to be standard, just short. I'm 5'6. (Worst case you wind up going via FC for 22R).

[Locked door]

For those that haven't heard it, this is the 'Gold Standard' for how ATC should be done, both during normal ops before the accident and dealing with the aftermath.

YouTube - &#x202a;BAW38 G YMMM B777 Crash RNW27L&#x202c;&rlm;

[Jet Jockey A4]

Shore Guy wrote...

There are a few things that would/will help in the incursion issue.

(1) I believe all transport aircraft should be equipped with a surface moving map display. Current FAA regulations only allow this on a Class III EFB, an expensive proposition. Approval for Class II units (much less expensive) was to have been accomplished on the FAA "Fast Track", but, to my knowledge, has not occurred.
Just amazing when you think about it....take delivery of a new transport aircraft and fly anywhere in the world with navigation accuracy measured in meters, autoland in virtual zero visibility, and then the guidance for surface movement is a piece of paper and a compass.

Airlines are sooooo cheap!

Equipment to prevent runway incursions is already available from Honeywell!

- All our aircrafts are equipped with 2 class III EFBs with moving map display,
one for each pilot station.

- To augment the moving map display, our aircrafts are equipped with
Honeywell's "RAAS" system (Runway Awareness and Advisory System)
which works in conjunction with the EGWPS and the GPS to give you real
time warning of an approaching runway.

Some additional info on "RAAS"...

A product that improves situational awareness by providing timely aural advisories - with new advisories and now graphical alerts to the flight crew and advises them of their position during taxi, takeoff, final approach, landing and rollout.

Positioned for growth, SmartRunway will also utilize Automated Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) as it is adopted.

Why airlines don't have this in every aircraft they fly is beyond me.

[jurassicjockey]

Too many executive bonuses to be paid for saving the company money by not buying unneeded safety equipment. Mortgaging our safety.

[stilton]

So the Egyptair Aircraft was less than 'a mile away'


Sounds pretty close..

[ross_M]

Is it a possibility that the Lufthansa flight crew had already seen the impending disaster and stepped on their brakes just right before the warning from ATC came? Mere speculation but I wonder.....

[jstrains]

Inside cabin LH 411 - near crash announcement at 2:50 mins
YouTube - &#x202a;JFK 2011: Inside cabin Lufthansa LH411 - near crash announcement&#x202c;&rlm;

[PilotsAnonymous]

If you listen to the GND freq, you will here that several ATC staff witnessed things going wrong, at which point the controller advised LH to abort take-off.

[Snow_Owl]

Why did they have to refuel? Did they use up so much fuel in the take off run?

[Dunhovrin]

If they're like the rest of they have enough fuel for the usual JFK taxi dick-dance but not enough for an hour's cooling their heels. Once they've eaten into contingency fuel they're back to the gate. It often happens at JFK, esp if there's weather within 500 nm and taxi delays start.

BTW, I took part in Ground Metering that night and it worked a treat. No sitting at the end of the ramp turning and burning waiting to get a word in, bang on time Ground called us and gave us our marching orders. Sadly not so much marching as bimbling the long way round B...

[ross_M]

If they're like the rest of they have enough fuel for the usual JFK taxi dick-dance but not enough for an hour's cooling their heels.

Would they keep engines running while cooling their heels? Maybe just the APU.

What fraction of an engine idle consumption does an APU use up; I'm curious.

[The Ancient Geek]

JFK needs to get organised.
Pushback & start should not be given until there is a clear run to takeoff.
How hard can it be to get some ground traffic management sorted.
Even LHR can get aircraft 90 seconds apart down the taxiway at busy times.

[SloppyJoe]

These threads can be really pathetic as are obviously mainly people who have no idea about the industry giving their uneducated opinion.

Everyone seems to have done a good job. The aircraft at fault is the Egypt Air, the guy in the left seat of that 777 should not be in that seat anymore for making such a catastrophic mistake.

Those going on about standard RT, get a life. During situations like this you say what is needed fast. The guy who posted the BA audio??? Is that standard? "Mayday, mayday, speedbird, speedbird, 95, 95" No its not but did the job.

How about the Lufthansa call:
"Lufthansa 411 heavy is rejecting take-off"
Again not standard.

WHO GIVES A :mad:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Pushback & start should not be given until there is a clear run to takeoff.
>>

Not possible at busy airfields; there are too many variables. You need a fair few at the holding points to enable expeditious departures by taking advantage of departure separation standards. Too many heading in one direction may cause delays.

Sloppy Joe..... some people, especially those involved in training pilots and controllers, DO care about R/T standards. It's the way we communicate with people of many different languages and standardisation is essential. Sloppy R/T makes for possible incidents. Short, clearly enunciated, standard phrases are far more effective that spouting a mouthload of rubbish at speed.

[xray one]

This incident could have happened anywhere, however, it's more likely to happen at 'Lagos West' than most places i operate to.

I have filed numerous ASRs concerning operations into and out of JFK (EWR not much better). One point I always make is that flight safety organisations always talk about 'breaking the chain'....JFK are obsessed with adding links.

[SloppyJoe]

Totally agree but what I am talking about is in this high stress very time critical situation and also the BA incident as it was brought up. To be critical of the JFK controller about what he said to get the plane to stop is ludicrous. In high stress situations people revert to basic language even to the point of sometimes speaking in their first language if it is not English. I expect the Lufthansa pilot knew the correct call to be made about stopping but reverted to something he learned a long time ago. It is quite common to revert to previous states when you are stressed, even to the point that a guy who flies an Airbus but used to fly a Boeing may revert to asking for flaps 25 or whatever it would be during a go-around in very high stress such as engine fire at the same time even though he should be asking for flaps 3.

Yes RT should be standard but exceptions have to be made when it is times like this as to be honest who cares as long as the message gets across.

The article states that the 777 took a wrong turn. He would have had to read back a runway crossing and obviously did not as was not cleared to do so. So the guy went past the big red sign, the hold line, probably a stop bar without clarifying an instruction he never got or read back. Even the non standard RT used in the US is no excuse. It is plain and simply bad airmanship on his part.

[ATC Watcher]

Sloppy joe, you speculate. Before starting to apportion blame ( e.g. the MS pilot) I would like to hear the instruction he got and the read back he gave ( if any). As to crossing stop bars, ( if that was a factor here ) this is another important issue as in too many airports you are still cleared to cross/disregarding red stop bars.

Bad phraseology still kills people today. Training on it is without stress, and we all know that when stress jumps in , as you correctly say, people do very different things. You will notice that on the tape shown the controller did not use any call sign , I suspect the LH saw the intruder and did not question the order. Luckily it was daylight CAVOK. At night or IMC , a few extremely important seconds could/ might have been lost by PF/PNF questions or even a read back " was that for us LH 211 ? " and we would have a very different discussion now.
Never underestimate phraseology.

[SloppyJoe]

Yes it was complete speculation but having taught some guys bound for Egypt Air because there Dads were Captains there it would not surprise me if they got it wrong.

Ah, a short search on youtube brings up this!

Pretty clear cut if you ask me, clear instructions, and clear read backs. Twice in fact.

YouTube - &#x202a;Lufthansa Jet in Near-Miss with EgyptAir Plane at JFK: Ground Control Audio&#x202c;&rlm;


Looking at a JFK chart it would seem they entered the runway as the next instructions were right on 22R hold short of J.

The diagram on the youtube clip is I think not correct. Expect they entered at either G or H.

[The Ancient Geek]

<<Pushback & start should not be given until there is a clear run to takeoff.
>>

Not possible at busy airfields; there are too many variables. You need a fair few at the holding points to enable expeditious departures by taking advantage of departure separation standards. Too many heading in one direction may cause delays.




Not really relevant to this thread but the time from pushback from each stand to a taxiway entrance for each aircraft type will be a constant, as will the time spent on each taxiway.
It would take very little computing power to generate the timings to have each flight arrive at the threshold holding point on time for its slot with a nice orderly line correctly spaced out to follow.
I agree that it is nice to have the next one holding ready but it is inexcusable to have a logjam of aircraft sitting still on the ground with engines running. It is even worse to have aircraft leaving a stand when it will only be joining a logjam.

Some airports are just plain disorganised.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<the time from pushback from each stand to a taxiway entrance for each aircraft type will be a constant, as will the time spent on each taxiway.>>

Not a chance in hell!!!!!

Ancient Geek.. your profile reveals nothing but I suspect that you are not an aviation professional. Your suggestion of having timings to get every aircraft to the runway at a particular time is simply impossible. You surely understand that there is much more going on than just aircraft taxying? Vehicles moving around, work in progress possibly closing sections of taxiway, inbound aircraft waiting for a stand, sudden runway closure, weather factors, runway changes, etc, etc. I did GMC at Heathrow for 22 years and no two sessions were the same.

[SloppyJoe]

In fact listening to the ground frequency again it seems they did not turn right on B as instructed once they went onto the runway but in fact went right on A as were then instructed to join B at H. Amazing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ctzirpy2stA

Also appears that they never got Take-off clearance as believe this is unedited audio.

Swiss cheese almost lining up and was ATC that broke the chain of events. :D

[michap72]

Still no audio files including a take-off clearance for the lufthansa guy??

[Roffa]

Also appears that they never got Take-off clearance as believe this is unedited audio.

Swiss cheese almost lining up and was ATC that broke the chain of events.

Phone up the FAA and tell them not to bother investigating, you've got it all sussed from YouTube :rolleyes:

[Ushuaia]

What Roffa said......... :ugh:

These tapes are NOT complete and don't paint a full picture. That people here are commenting about not hearing a takeoff clearance for LH is just insulting, frankly, to JFK TWR and LH.

As what what MS did or didn't do, I don't think THAT'S real clear from these tapes either! The info available here is incomplete and confusing. That YouTube picture suggests he's infringed at J but tx's from GND make it sound like he's infringed at G. Who knows? I know - ATC does! I suspect the FAA and the NTSB have a fair idea already, also.

Frankly speculating about this and that achieves bugger all. We'll hear the facts in a short time. What this thread does illustrate is how demanding JFK is on everybody, particularly the ATC team and aircrews. Having had my fair share of JFK flying, I have no doubt about that, so it's a matter of taking it slow and steady, esp when the wx is crap. I actually feel for the MS guys - I know what JFK is like on the ground...

Well done to the Luftie boys in getting the thing stopped promptly, and a BIG Bravo Zulu to the TWR and GND guys for picking the infringement so promptly (you can just make out the start of the GND girl's shock inhale of breath while talking to the AA aircraft, as she realises what's happening.... would be terrifying). Kudos to her for continuing on afterwards getting MS clear, obviously under pressure. Sounds like they relieved her after the immediate incident was cleared, quite rightly so.

Nice to hear QF108 Heavy there too - I miss that!

[Ditchdigger]

You will notice that on the tape shown the controller did not use any call sign , I suspect the LH saw the intruder and did not question the order.


These tapes are NOT complete and don't paint a full picture. That people here are commenting about not hearing a takeoff clearance for LH is just insulting, frankly, to JFK TWR and LH.


Exactly.

And it is just as likely that the "(callsign)" preceding "Cancel takeoff clearance" was omitted from the recording for the same reasons that the takeoff clearance itself was omitted--the recording originated from a scanner, which is not monitoring a single frequency, but scanning several frequencies.

It appears the recording could have originated from one of two feeds at LiveATC:

JFK Ground: 121.900
JFK Ground: 121.650
JFK Tower (4L/22R, 13R/31L): 123.900
JFK Tower (4R/22L, 13L/31R): 119.100
TCA (Class B 2000ft/below within 8nm): 125.250


or


JFK Tower (4L/22R, 13R/31L): 123.900
JFK Tower (4R/22L, 13L/31R): 119.100
TCA (Class B 2000ft/below within 8nm): 125.250


Does that help everybody to understand how any audio aquired from that website is most likely to be incomplete?

Reference the question of phraseology, in the thread down in the ATC Issues section of this site, there is a post by member controllerzhu, which describes the correct phraseology:
http://www.pprune.org/atc-issues/455400-phraseology-stop-take-off.html#post6530603

If that member's word is not good enough, the applicable part of the ATC order 7110.65 can be found online. (Link includes both sections for Takeoff Clearance, and Cancellation of Takeoff Clearance.):

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0309.html#atc0309.html.9


3-9-10. CANCELLATION OF TAKEOFF CLEARANCE
Cancel a previously issued clearance for takeoff and inform the pilot of the reason if circumstances require. Once an aircraft has started takeoff roll, cancel the takeoff clearance only for the purpose of safety.

NOTE-
In no case should a takeoff clearance be canceled after an aircraft has started its takeoff roll solely for the purpose of meeting traffic management requirements/EDCT.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE (reason).


As usual, I will be happy to be corrected if any of the above is inaccurate.

[jmmilner]

I believe it is a matter of public record that, prior to departure from JFK, the MS crew was instructed to call an 718 AC phone number upon arrival in Cairo to discuss a "possible pilot deviation" while the ground controller was directed to specifically complement the LH crew. When LH finally taxied out for their departure, the controller indicated "everyone will wait for you". While time may tell a different story and Egypt may be unwilling to accept that their crew was at fault, the "what happened" seems pretty clear even if the "why" is still subject to debate.

[SloppyJoe]

Roffa and Ushuaia

Thanks, yes I do but the FAA will do their own report so I won't call to tell them.

The 777 actually infringed at H but you will find that out soon also from the NTSB.

[Spitoon]

Everyone seems to have done a good job. The aircraft at fault is the Egypt Air, the guy in the left seat of that 777 should not be in that seat anymore for making such a catastrophic mistake....and Egypt may be unwilling to accept that their crew was at fault...Does it help to label anyone 'at fault'? Thankfully this even was resolved without ham to anyone.

The aviation business is built around ensuring safety and has many safeguards - some of which no doubt played a part in resolving this particular situation. The reason that these safeguards have been built in is because we are all human and we can all make mistakes or suffer misunderstandings.

What matters now is that we investigate the circumstances surrounding the event, understand what contributed to it and - most importantly - see what we can do to stop the chain of events that leads to an accident getting as far as it did. And, hopefully, that investigation will be conducted by people with all of the information that is available, and the results acted on by those with the authority to do so. Whilst I have some views on what may have happened and why, I await the results of a formal investigation - which may support my views....or may show that, in my ignorance, I am completely wrong.

Discussion amongst professionals is always of value - as is the learning value which may stop others from making the same or similar errors. But it would be nice to keep it to the professionals. :ugh:

[clunckdriver]

I see the French BEA have decided that the French built A380 which was taxying on a French airport and stuffed its wintip into a French built structure was the fault of JFK controllers talking too fast! Really guys, leave the endless stupid JFK and USA bashing to us Canadians, we live next to them and its our national sport ,right after hockey and trying to take the British Royals seriously!

[grimmrad]

Not quite unrelated question. Assume this happens to you as PIC/PF. Now assume you are in the LH seat, you have an hour to take off to cool brakes - how good is your psyche? I may assume you are quite well, disaster averted, not your fault. Now - how about the Egypt Air guy? He probably knows he screwed up majorly, has to call upon arrival etc - but still has to do a 8h or so flight. Is he mentally fit to do that? Are there any rules for that?

[clunckdriver]

Grimmrad, a very good question ! I think the answer should be roughly as follows, like someone in your profesion who bends his car on the way to the hospital to cut someone up, a pilot, like a doctor, should be able to seperate the incident from what he has to do next, most can I belive, some cultures have a problem doing this, there lies the problem. A little story from my past, we were waiting to go at a Canadian airport when tower let us know that the flight ahead of us had dived veritically into the ground with no hope of anyone walking away from that one, they then asked us if we still wanted to take of, I remember the collective spoken comments between the three of us was why the hell wouldnt we go? Like your job one has to seperate things and handle them at the right time, in this case after our flight was over and we were enjoying a good meal and a glass of very fine German beer!

[ross_M]

I think the answer should be roughly as follows, like someone in your profesion who bends his car on the way to the hospital to cut someone up, a pilot, like a doctor, should be able to seperate the incident from what he has to do next, most can I belive, some cultures have a problem doing this, there lies the problem.

Interestingly though, the ATC is usually relieved ASAP? Even in this case I believe. Not sure if for safety or for debriefing.

[BrATCO]

Not sure if for safety or for debriefing

Both.
Such a rise in hormones can have desastrous impact on next decisions.
Technical debriefing must be done ASAP : infos must not be lost.

Psychological debriefing and support, or at least (organised) support from colleagues will be needed for both controllers. They'll probably suffer nightmares for some time.

[BOAC]

Not sure if for safety or for debriefing. - don't forget it is also a whole lot easier to replace a controller in a room than a pilot in the cockpit.

[grimmrad]

(Why can I never get the quote box in here if I hit "quote")

Good points. But - the difference here I believe is that a bend car has nothing to do with my qualities as a physician. And the plane going down has nothing to do (at least not immediately, you can always learn from the mistakes others made) with you piloting YOUR plane. But the Egypt Air guy screwed himself up in his profession quite visibly - and the ground instructions he missed after that indicate that he either never has been or at least is not now on top of his game. It might be tough to concentrate on your next case after your patient just died on the table from your mistake (cutting royaly into the inferior cava).

[stepwilk]

Discussion amongst professionals is always of value - as is the learning value which may stop others from making the same or similar errors. But it would be nice to keep it to the professionals.

Good luck on that!

[jmmilner]

If I've heard the recording of the eventual departures of MS986 and LH411 from JFK correctly, the MS crew was given the phone number to call and the reason ("possible pilot deviation") immediately prior to taxi for departure. This sounds to me more like a doctor hearing while scrubbing up, over the hospital PA system, that the state medical board would like him to call about "possible malpractice" after he completes the upcoming brain surgery. I'm sure the MS crew knew they were going to have some questions to answer but being "called out" in so public a fashion just prior to takeoff certainly doesn't seem like the best way to handle it. Perhaps there's a legal reason to do so, but no flight safety reason I can come up with.

[singforsupper]

As a person who's spent a good bit of time sitting behind you folks, reading and drinking coffee, I would like to say thanks to all the men and women who work their asses off for not enough $, both in the pointy end and ATC, for keeping us safe..

well done to both, in this case.:ok:

Sing!!

[tomellis6680]

Another runway incursion for the NTSB to investigate!

[ST27]

He probably knows he screwed up majorly, has to call upon arrival etc - but still has to do a 8h or so flight. Is he mentally fit to do that? Are there any rules for that?

Just to make a comparison with another transportation industry which has to take safety seriously, consider what would have happened on a railway:

Assuming that the Egyptair flight had passed a location where it was supposed to stop, or took a wrong turn resulting in a runway incursion (not a rush to judgement, but an assumption for the purpose of the example) it would mean the aircraft had moved beyond where it was authorized by the ATC.

If a train crew made a similar mistake, like if a train passed a signal telling it to stop without stopping, or it entered a zone where it had been told maintenance forces were active without first contacting the maintenance supervisor by radio, it would be considered a major violation of its operating authority.

Assuming the violation doesn't result in an accident, once the violation was noticed, the train would be immediately brought to a stop, and the entire train crew would be relieved from duty, whether on a passenger train or freight train. Other than perhaps moving the train to a location where it wouldn't block road crossings or other train movements, the train wouldn't move again until a new crew could be brought to the location.

The rail traffic controller might also be relieved of duty, if the violation involved the controller's instructions or actions, or lack thereof.

Any employees taken out of service would then likely be subjected to an immediate drug test and an investigation. They would then have to endure any penalties that might be imposed following the investication before they would be allowed to return to duty.

The reasoning on the railway's part is that they don't know why the violation occurred, and whether one of the crew had a medical problem, or was under the influence of something. Until they can be sure of the cause, they can't afford to allow the crew to remain on duty.

One major difference, of course, is that trains can be brought to a stop pretty well anywhere to sort things out, which is not an option for an aircraft at FL 370, but it is still interesting that in an industry that tends to be far stricter than railways in the interpretation and enforcement of rules would allow a crew that has been involved in a major violation on the ground to continue, whether at fault or not.

As to crews that might not have broken any rules, but were involved in a close call, such as if the train they were operating struck a car at a road crossing, or they were on a train that could have been in an accident because of the rule violation of another train, the members of the crew are given the option to be relieved by a fresh crew if they want it. Note that the pay system does not penalize them if they ask for relief, other than they don't get paid again until they come back to work, or a doctor mandates some time off to recover.

[hetfield]

Money counts, simple but true.

[Crabman]

Not really relevant, is it? Trains are directed by (unambiguous) lighted signals. And, last time that I checked, trains can only proceed or stop (and, very rarely, reverse course).

Poor Egypt Air was probably dealing with a complex airport chart as well as a language that he was only minimally qualified to understand. Note all the comments on this thread. It seems that even most Brit crews are quite unqualified to deal with the local language and procedures. Perhaps additional training is necessary before any non-US pilots attempt to operate into JFK.

[LadyGrey]

Perhaps additional training is necessary before any non-US pilots attempt to operate into JFK.

Now, ain´t this funny.....

Hopefully, poor guy does not train his "American English" in Mississippi, Alabama, SC or even worse, Texas.....:)

Is there a training facility for "New York´ish":confused:

[clunckdriver]

Lady Grey, lets hope they dont take English training in Scotland,the Midlands, or for that matter any place in the UK! Of all the places on this Earth with local versions of English the UK has to top the list! Maybe data link is the way to go, but then we will get into spelling, {Tire or Tyre?}

[BrATCO]

Anyway, training should deal with English PHRASEOLOGY.
Many English language natives forget that.
ATC is not having a cup of tea in a sofa with your old deaf Aunty. You've got to be clear. Grumbling a series of onomatopoeia from time to time isn't enough, even with a smile.

In the ground recording, have you noticed how the girl speaks slowly after the incident ?
She speaks slowly and, each time, she says "I need you to..." : this is not phraseology, this is Human Factors. Everytime she wants to be sure the pilot has listened and understood, she prepares him to receive the message, then she articulates and speaks slowly.
She does it when she feels it's important. Why not always ? Why not before the incursion ?
Even if one was able to speak twice the normal speed, one would still lose time in sending each message three times.

Data link is a good way to avoid mistakes but I don't think it could be faster than spoken language.
Instead of "CAN..CANCEL TAKE-OFF, CANCEL TAKE-OFF CLEARANCE !!!" (which saved everyone's day, however not phraseology), the emergency written message would have been : "You've got mail...", the pilot has to click twice on the mailbox.
"Dowloading, please wait." says the machine. Find the message in the list, open it then read it... :p

[MikeNYC]

nstead of "CAN..CANCEL TAKE-OFF, CANCEL TAKE-OFF CLEARANCE !!!" (which saved everyone's day, however not phraseology)

We covered this one page back ( http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/455345-near-miss-jfk-runway-5.html#post6536482 )...

From Ditchdigger's post...

per U.S. Aeronatical Information Manual:
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/atc/atc0309.html#atc0309.html.9
3-9-10. CANCELLATION OF TAKEOFF CLEARANCE
Cancel a previously issued clearance for takeoff and inform the pilot of the reason if circumstances require. Once an aircraft has started takeoff roll, cancel the takeoff clearance only for the purpose of safety.

NOTE-
In no case should a takeoff clearance be canceled after an aircraft has started its takeoff roll solely for the purpose of meeting traffic management requirements/EDCT.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE (reason).

Are you quibbling that ATC didn't give a (reason) for the cancelled takeoff clearance?

[Annex14]

Crabman:

Are you joking ?? Special language training for an international airport ?? Much simpler to solve that problem by sticking to what ICAO has published !!

Clunkdriver:

Very correct what you say, but what´s about the different slangs in those 50 US states and the two languages used in your country ?

BrATCO:

I fully agree in what you wrote. The key to a safe and orderly conduct of air traffic is ICAO Standard Phraseology. Safety in aviation has no extra space for local practices.

MikeNYC:

Look here we go again. You refer to FAA papers, which should refer to the original ICAO standard phraseology. I intentionally say: SHOULD! The US was the driving power for that Convention of Chicago after WWII, that led to the founding of ICAO. I always have assumed the USA had adopted into their national laws and regulations those ICAO rules and regulations. Obviously I am wrong guessing ??
Just for the sake of clarification I add a brief copy of it. http://www.pprune.org/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAAIAAAACACAYAAADDPmHLAAAC7 mlDQ1BJQ0MgUHJvZmlsZQAAeAGFVM9rE0EU/jZuqdAiCFprDrJ4kCJJWatoRdQ2/RFiawzbH7ZFkGQzSdZuNuvuJrWliOTi0SreRe2hB/+AHnrwZC9KhVpFKN6rKGKhFy3xzW5MtqXqwM5+8943731vdt8ADXLSNPWABO QNx1KiEWlsfEJq/IgAjqIJQTQlVdvsTiQGQYNz+Xvn2HoPgVtWw3v7d7J3rZrStpoHhP1A4Eea2 Sqw7xdxClkSAog836Epx3QI3+PY8uyPOU55eMG1Dys9xFkifEA1Lc5/TbhTzSXTQINIOJT1cVI+nNeLlNcdB2luZsbIEL1PkKa7zO6rYqGcTvYOkL2d 9H5Os94+wiHCCxmtP0a4jZ71jNU/4mHhpObEhj0cGDX0+GAVtxqp+DXCFF8QTSeiVHHZLg3xmK79VvJKgnCQOMpk YYBzWkhP10xu+LqHBX0m1xOv4ndWUeF5jxNn3tTd70XaAq8wDh0MGgyaDUhQ EEUEYZiwUECGPBoxNLJyPyOrBhuTezJ1JGq7dGJEsUF7Ntw9t1Gk3Tz+KCJx lEO1CJL8Qf4qr8lP5Xn5y1yw2Fb3lK2bmrry4DvF5Zm5Gh7X08jjc01efJXU dpNXR5aseXq8muwaP+xXlzHmgjWPxHOw+/EtX5XMlymMFMXjVfPqS4R1WjE3359sfzs94i7PLrXWc62JizdWm5dn/WpI++6qvJPmVflPXvXx/GfNxGPiKTEmdornIYmXxS7xkthLqwviYG3HCJ2VhinSbZH6JNVgYJq89S9dP 1t4vUZ/DPVRlBnM0lSJ93/CKmQ0nbkOb/qP28f8F+T3iuefKAIvbODImbptU3HvEKFlpW5zrgIXv9F98LZua6N+OPwEWD yrFq1SNZ8gvAEcdod6HugpmNOWls05Uocsn5O66cpiUsxQ20NSUtcl12VLFr OZVWLpdtiZ0x1uHKE5QvfEp0plk/qv8RGw/bBS+fmsUtl+ThrWgZf6b8C8/UXAeIuJAAAgAElEQVR4Ae2dC7SdVXXv19nn5JwEEhJehUSq8Q5AFMQmAQpVC UOsVnl0VByiUKEiQbnSMi5Srr2io+XZ6x0FQb1YeVVsS60VFYhCS0EeLUUIW MUq4YKBFoJAsOR93nf+1v7+35nfOt+3z97nsfcJZY6x9pxrzrnmesy5Ht9j7 x3Cq/DqCLw6Av91R6CrzV1XfTWrF1q4zc2YsepGzfJIZh1MHhCu52bRpxzSjibJ4T i9x6Vuo3fUQPCOlfOHrT+koQwTCOQBr1/ndPgTR7QTcHSvpb5nnnlmg694dHTisanSGRmpTzrkw8PDobu7O0BL39Pokrx MeXi1Gk00T2XlhX0dngc9NDQ0YmnI6K29vb3bdtlllyd+8IMfnHPjjTc+Zf3 c+tOf/rTfTNJIvypQTcehnSsAMx3nz7O04Nlnn13X1VWsnjwD6oF8yi/TkRMpixPRUYInWnrCsiU5umqXeGWY8t4GgWcxEANwzpw5YdGiRb+wct+8/PLLL7vrrrte/PnPf77dTLMqzKogwCntAurqs7TA0q7nnnvumaqYAdegexq556f60k11WAEAH Odl0k/tKE/geB1fVjrCXuZp5AMDA2Hjxo3zd95550NXrlx5YE9Pz4NPPPHEVuPNKufT1vp 6BzXzQF1sOQTB/LS6dJal8onyqfPQl2PSsuh6ffRSXeWFZUO64DIb4qFvqxyBcPSJJ574t6tWr drXtgZWP8aAsSguf8boBLQzAOgwU3OOJQYiB5yfQhoQZToqI12fl+PkMMnIp/qSgXEgIB3VW2YHnhwODYBtxkfMFvGLX/wibN++fb8TTjjhtksvvXSZbQ1zTY1xoEDHg0ANAGuGzlR0MvN3sbSnpX2efP LJbxkugAa7wJwgozIe4xTltU9jBp7npzJflXSl78tL5stzBiAPRj44OBjPBD oXHHDAAci2rV279qT3v//9d5g9zgRcHYyPfiprEygA4v687uCDtyjSEYhWW2I+y0CXgXozbuBMGZkGT7Q xxvhe7vgjmeNiWWdnHN/rJeVz3aSOyDeel0OLr/aW8YZVX1ZeNlR277/7uxgQBAHj9aY3vcniYnD0xRdfPPPoo4++0YoNUNSShs3I9oIuA8E7dbN0GSH nW6vzICjwaWMWAPALrXeDEp2Mqnhg9K1s7kzsGD+FyIFPGzJhzsvy4+pOjUy QV63CqNOuvD2016VoLsvjZOlJh3wsn9np7++PWwQ8VoRNmzbNsXNA2G233b5 y//3373HEEUdcYaqD0a5Zy3Bbkc4A4L6aDTbLZ81O0aRuo/MEzwIk8o3uIVmeEzc0enE/NNwlWs4DZ0mBE7HxyqBsJJrleXuUScuJ5/mNeLLXSEe2vM6obQc4nX4zRmwPjz32WOjr6yN12/2CS9esWXOx2dckVFVtxaocT3R7J+2+666x8ebV+gxMHWgFYrT7qLdO5jyjNS MiL5NBMzi5TLSXZzrjdD0/qzfqeD72sGXt0x4tO9QrvnTgpXqsyfAi32iWenjYiTLkLkWbWX59b2/cPlghNJ5ggPOBrQJhwQKuhENt69atn3zkkUcWL1u27FTEljDVVtAKECtNB0q tiUu2dWLUgoGAsJC2uLXtAmwpYgIlS8xu6KirwEGW0VGW0F4315Md6Wb5KPf 2Enm0ZT3KT+hGq224gpVOOrQ118vsMCjUEfmiwS6ho+T5MciyQKM8s1+YgHr 88cfD3Llz40oAtlXipIcffnh1ZtpQe4E+5BCjXrOJ0yyzgNMtNNgOMyO2rOV JfDC6lLUEKHhy4xU8L2fQc6iicwUj0JGe4dwR0Bk/YqeDfnRuhsfpEbhOFnVjVfVy1MGg5XUlNGOgRFkSY6Ige+GFF6yE7be2Fcyb Ny8mWxneZUFwZ2Yqytv1oS0g1scSRccYAJzeZU6NwGyDYHAMIh2psY/c4QoCAoFkQHD0XnllsNAPXXYICjvvnBccfemlMPqf/xmG7r8/bL/mmkLg9H3gA2Hu+94Xed2veU3dFjYJwuefD0Pr1oVtt98ett5yS92etVt10oc lt91WL5PXlhFql2U3fuc74YXPfS6W8/2ip6zJ0YmZPnISvRKd4jgJ0FEZawdnJc4DCoLNmzeHXW2L9bBt27aVFgT3Ll ++/G2eP9P0uACgQjrFLMfh0AymMHSdVccxk32o0zihQJu86/Wv96q5o7o4a1jqNfmc3/qtsHnVqjD84osxaHre+MZQyxxfKGz32uH3kt761jD/jDPCC7/3e2HYgiIHa0PPa1+b15PzjaiHZZ3Tiw5AvzKn1RnFTwVEHAv658SMhFK8NLQ 8cp4J6LZ0XEkYT6vHLgPD4sWLcwusvICdCd760EMPPWArw9sOPPBAXR3kejN B1Kd0ZnnIZr1Svtxny/6wBURMdp8bPGSYJL6nhymj7cLwqKU4uAywUklvunbbLez8hS9E58cAcg4hnw dVUrZ7n33C3t/7XqjtsUcc+Ea63nEFM9gvMIqZRjKvSd1xCzCmnI5c5wDkTz/9dLCrgLgNgP2ZwO4ZHGaB8OBPfvKTnbzdmaILKwA3LGKEW204FhqgIzkdOZE pqho3GNStl1wSy/Ued1zoefObcxu1JUtC96GHhkHbEuRw4cF//dew/aabQli4MMyj3H775eVsuoU9rroqPMeWoa3L6vew2bYKcaSz+a67YlDGOmhv1 uY4J7M8NlSOAM7pzLjP6ygPT0u+DoKow+McwLYAqG+xXrMNWAC8xbaJNY8++ uiKgw46aGtkztBHMQBsBRAMWQBExxvDBwBy8aU7EVYnvV7/d78bB3K74V3+4i9Cz7775uJeW9b7/+mf6s7IBgXh8HPPhS033xzLbb7hhrDo0kvDvPe8Jy835w1vCKT+f/u3fGBzoRHPnX125MclN3NkPLxawDD0sZ3wk0QwRB64JBkr50fdLA9fW4CCgL FjopHYIgSqkzy0BcEBW7ZsIQgOtiCYse2gsAUMWqNIbAMs4VreI65a7tka0E 0TfJfUUeF8m6C+J58sDHqYP79+5WED4YGBwXnxisTauOG888KoHahyMPmC00 7Lr+HFl9PiVQ7lTS8mo6M98kYbMz/Bk4/1mZGo6zF0RSIASEwlrQBgT5uIB0RxIhEE2g7YCpS4QrAgIQge+PGPfzwWKRS eRiisAIM2qPVF395cMOcBfrZ72gS5LnQp2IACcbAyWnoEgKBrp+J2x+AjZ+A LgINYpQxHmeH+hx8Oc9/+9lyt9+CDY4DIabnACDkVWVwF4GHLO1s0Opnc40gbX5gWQiuP42N/DcvpRkZQnnEkALghBM0locY2toc2WQJsJVhmVwh3GTkjVweFAIhngFitRbDN +OhkOTfDBVc34OEkwRgljg0YDrZs3xFHhN7DDhsTGLXt7ruj3LxU4OOoeE9C A2R4y333FQKAejWrC4UtszeXohnENpm9f//4x8ccnTkfWXRkVo+c63EVnQYATgdwsAIAzGUhl91sDchYBeR09EWDLQje+uC DD95+6KGHvhvZdEIhAAbMKXLwuEMgtcrhGS5riMpLVuZ8ZIvMGTW7HzDnoIO 4XpJ6GLFbpZu//e0YHJymfSCRz1cGnGOl4iVjXrpO+NXFi3b57d/22Uivs0vIeO2e2cOxaZ56vMPTvJf5AKACnI0T5WidBRQA6EimINBWhYyyWRC 8y4LgJguC98GfLigEAPu/wK8G8LRETRQEuZ4MCVtHPMx9m1vRnGzDBRfEAxK6zPgCsAJYG2NgILdyWsql F3k2s8ARhKWQ4GFsGi863TDlvIM97R0tfsrzAaCxwMFKBAQ09cQbb9lk4qoA GUHgIbaHNlmyreB37D7BdYcccshpXmcqdGUADNoWoA7kWDVpJSDfYDWQejOY mf/iH/9x2PStb0UH5B13hXG2AhO5jUro+7VfG9PIBoqBlXxMGEK/3TlMwV7lHXO+CeVYcBXtnS5augQAQJ5xw7FgBYAwzqadADraDpArCGIfTO6x bQcfsSDYbEFwdixcryojW0eFABjIGoQZbQH5ko6jLeV5V1fkIW8ADIiHTXYL VrDRXpzYYvu+QM7jtO8BfgwAwwD5XrtbSCAIBu0VrLhNiJFhNH60fPlYcFke nk/emfB9XnSKvR4yyeHjeCUcjqNxMDRtT1cvdJGhw9WB5HE8aKuVIdmVwVn22vm mww477LNZlYZiV8AtQTEA/BagQZXT5WDlVY34lm8cAipQx/9x5pmRYKC8A+vMbBlmC1A7TMCA5GcAy/f8yq+EeW95Syyij0333hsGTC8OlpgZZrZTX6PkHTgZ2m8BVIsztQIQACRmOG 8Ocw5ApucEvCyCTMGSNbveF9qeJeN32UrwR/ZSyTZ7qeRPLU9TgTicdbK5z2IAMOAZDGQDL6fSUCB+ejoypRVVYqfqlPvM7I nDZea41mY6kT/WWRWJZwLOKXLgf7v2WvumgZ2eM41RG9T1V18dhgiAvNQYwQlHZT32jha/GZ7XEe3rwJGMG7MZJ2t557LvPrt64aGQzeZ4SchlIUGBk9HjHcI999wz7LXX Xi8sXbp0gZXhZdI8CEyvy84Ef3LPPfdsOvLII68ykQ5wZV2naCkUAkAzBM3+ zBlybQGnAWD6kluPx1UEJ21Vv1/es7oo6PX0YEUG45NEG5SFRx0VFv/+74edDjxQoog32K3ezbYFAN5OZNgHdzbgVyU5sRW5LwPtVwDNfgWBzjBsY+z 5WuLRY2UgSEiAfY8gJiu7J4G0k90rISjeYHc6uUmUrQY1C5zL7rzzzv53vOM d11sxgoBmAHRjQigEgL/fyHeZ5MpxOAkO1RL1nDPhq6x0hAez1aasleKpJyqz8Dd/Myz72c+ULeABexL46Omn585FKDtS5A1MAP5kknc25cvyfgXA8QoCMIklHueT cKKWe/g4X4EhuYKEoLE7gsG+Zhb2sIdeb7Gtz754go2avXv4hdWrV//yjDPOuNm+ioYbiUOGPh0CYxWhEABaQ1BRAMiBVRhdyaCBNF/nFj+xXwVqdRoA4qflNvzDP4Sf2IqAg6Uj7HX9CgAfncmk1PGyAd+vADgXwPE 4W/s/tPgKAByshNPRUaCkwfDyyy+HBx54IAbAm+1BmgUPr/N99eKLL37Xeeedt+b5559nKGgKUK+sTo/7nHQAYEmOFva8tKa0FZqN6KUy8bbbiyJlMuT9NuM32tPBtRddFF7+0Y9yPek LoyuYrgDAdlkiAPwKgHNxvpysdoAl43zA28Ps/6nDCQKSXxkUHJSn3A9/+EPOCV2WRvbdd9/vnHbaaYdfc801z9g7B8yxCYNAvuNm/B7/J4SnaBzwq3UUnSwlWKKFPS+lyQu8vngelzkMecpXXtjriOdxIxpZKhdvsvhR GpTB6f/8z/bkemFc9pndOA8na6+HxvGa+fBxuPQwI334siEdMECQsR0sXbqU8us+8pGP/MaGDRs2WRBM+OWTCVcAKpDzqrDXgQakW89N/lMOkgWfF90M9jrQZfkqXiO+bAmrnWDOAJr90DgQTNKhD+fhZDkdHRwLT3zJx CevJJvIeNHEvnrWc/311//tySeffIIFAIuStgN1wzex+E5604dAZ0KOFpYozcMv40nf47KWel4ZXcUT3+N mafRSXfFSTPsZbQ8KADCOBnAceZxLcHD4w4lA6nDl5XjyJPIKFAVHNGAfdlm 5j20rXVdcccWpxx9//DWYtaSmqTtSLwaADoFo/XuuMp4YZ8VUUl6jvJeJngouK+t5zdLSG9/jyXFwtIIAp8nx4smZBAKOZFVAT7PbBwA8OT0NAGRsHwC27Wzwmt133/0sy/6VJQQEgc4DRo5B6RYw0UCUyVOez5fRjXiStYLLdD2vjB4bhpmhcIYSNUAL43 QSTgZwIo4VDZajxePAqAChnMqCtcIgx64t/5tOOeWU199www1cNysIMFUABQA1D+sEW9BwGQ2iYzWc+V5/IlryqeCqsr697aRxGI7BITiGpDwOhybJqWAAGQlgVcDB0lGgSEd8HxyUszJ7 mvM5BPJ4ET/j3nGrgAKA2vo/F8IBhvkKd/GZpDGmAXjoH38dxPBet912m1U3Bur8GKf91Bx7D6H7jjtCze7CDdlNp5pdXg 4ffngYtJdGPPi2QisvjDN424f9HQf7mY/jyCsoFABgOVpyBYHqxr50oBUMns4CY9QChy8ezLPUZ4kDSOkRTAFAdOjtU16 yq59YjJhGIKgILk6l9ib3PrlpOkDqJPTal0Pm/OVfxiYM2Ysj/RdeGLofeijMtXcMB82ZA/b+oQffXtFyGM7F+dyy9QFAeTkeJ/t+Q6MrG+SlC5azKScdggEgDx/IbJLBt4w5Ew+6YQDEFcCUsLilStn4UwEikUCjMfPtkJLb8gORM9tMzM+cT7X 9K1aEQdr37neHXru93GvfWNr64Q+HEd5eSoC2A8JyDk5TQi6He0eJlkx6skE eQO51tArAQ9cHCPpZW3C4nM8tyYYBQC9w/rg9wnjTBdgmItmX+pkdHjSAwl4203S3vYJeeC112bLQk7Wv6/zzw7xvfCN033lnGLDvK5SB2iwsByoPJsmJYA+pTA6VPrqyCc1KARAIsqUy8F WfkSiSJgwA02kvqOE0FlBnxfetkY7ntYsetWf0Q8ccE3osSPzta1+/bzttlTM8H31knqe8tyUeNgAcL5tgEgD2WwZ65L3c1HB+Mdoo7KBei2O0myxz eNoGdHxK5Wne6zZjv9uezXsYtVfLvY2hk04KI/YdQs9L7SovLAcqD/aJ+rxM+VQHO54H7XmicT608uAMGgYA+/GsAQ2Ib5Ai2vPK9Lw8pSfST+XMeg/D9k2lNEiQp+XI015hzVDlU4wN9Q/saXQFOJMZnvKkLz1h1aO84TFjjgnZsQDwjfR00r5Cp5FVddqX8wPVjL4vC+3 LSzZij10btVN60hH2zqMt4pdh1Y1eqos+oC1B5eGpj2BdGcBvBvJ1ohnl6da hE+qY8ER1qEwZLitbpiee9EftiZ0HDoUpjGTfPlLZRtgvw+ixEoBTPjygDMN LE7qyUSaDR11K6E8EHVsBfMNouABaM0C8ZrG300wZ6bPnTwTptjCRvvohjOM AZrBAMvLqMzy/3EtHGF1owK8G3m4UNvnRsRVAnfDtFA/sk9fpBF171D/lb74FaX8oqUDwMvi+v+hIT7IyjI7KqYx4vjxlq6BjAVDVoDK+OulxmZ54Xk+ 0ZGWYQ54HDnwqB67Zc3afL6N9eU9LFx40IOcoX4WlRxnZSbF0vA3pUG4i6Ng W4BusRuowQ15yycATyaWrss3qx3J2Duiyd+2A2saNuZPIcw9g5NhjIStBdVY qmEDtAeM4LdueD03CHlhXEtgVH1pysOpO7aE3EXR0BVDD1Uh1JuWXyaUrWRm WjsdlevA45Qt4CCQgKMh7G83SsiFMOUCYICB5e+J5rEOdeNJXXhg9aNlXvY1 wxwKglUY26oAGw+NW9Sk76r5hVLNvFwlqt94a0qsEySbCvk2i5SA5DT6OA3t ZWR49AJkH5cEkBYLXqaI7tgXQIDUcmuXNA7KU5+WTpats+hUg2rY3juHNsWA YNqzltZl65agqXfVbSzqYMtShfnsd7KAjPfJqD7wyIJiagea0mrE0AzoMQpq mWk2VvZHkUrDbTv7opgdCX3462oINbAJ+VRCvCsvBVXLxo+EGHx1bAaoaWBX R6kNVOeQTlZUNj2Vv1GY5S70Ogt229Me7f089FUb1W4K+oNEqm7BbymKDdss WNM5NV4OUTyUKAq0GLVWcKXcsAKoaqwGpkjfiaxBTnWYDIz4EyvZ/zgE9r3tdNDVquMq2r6vZenwZaNmmvPrvg8DrT6SrNkjPly2jZ/UWUNbgyfAYDJ+qbAy7H5tiJeh2L4lUlfF81eF5rdBymjBBoFkunsfQStJVvt l6Z10AKIKb7cBk9DRIwrKh+/3KazsY8T9nI+EMYdoE+Lb5IBDf60kf7APBsuUnRBQzeEVtAepUq1iDOepWAN mI54DMKfDaFaCqi7ZRp4JAZwNhtTPF6lPKT/OzbgVIG9ju/HByx2/kyCMLTWBgJ0qFAlPIyImqD1MKBPGEkZXpw28EHQsANVaNS/Pitxun20C760/rK3Owlnl0NW7SE07tVOU7FgBVDYKvTjXSmSlZOuNbPQjOVLs0Jt7B6WpA3V6 vmbZ07Aygjvg9VY2HB+1lzXRmOnRqdvr3N1o5CPb89V+H4ZNPng7zU7Lhx0d 3DhUEnAk0XsLNVNbxFUCdKmsssjSV6U0nr/uLXxxnrufii8fxOsnQmGlsaEvZttBMGzseAGWNVAerZL7jZTqT5XXZXT/uAKYA3z8gSuWdyPsx8LRWhEZj6Ns7KwKgrLHqlLBvtGjJyspLpxXck/2JBWW4++fByzy/k3Taf5wPDzzRAym1e1YEgBrTCKedTXUlT/nN5tnra/rzKSs0+Od/XgiC2j33lK4OzdqfaT36D7Q6DrMmANSBZgZKnSwr00jWyHb3l76UPwjiySCX g0P8m5iDnuQLok40K0j1ncaUjU1ZI2dNALTSaN8Rdbqsw5J5/TI63vd3h7/hT3wiqnFTyF8WchaYjVtB2qdm+025jgZAI6epEx6nHU3z0q3il9WHrp/9PBIe/t3fzU0MfvnLhTeCuErwr4zlirOIqOpnWRM7GgBlDWrEk4Mn6mAjPclUT9Xsl 5zD4PCnP61s3CZ6PvaxPL+jEztUAPjBliObDQZfFlrlx83+s/htpSIM2ZbgnxGwAsx5hQRBxwOgyoFyUJXcu0i6npfSpTr2S6Q9dvgTsPdXvQ A69JWvBP/aGLeIZ8ttYrV/MrhjAeBvV6ZOLsvLganMd7pVHWZ/sCCIsGhRGLbZX2WfwBji0tCwgFVgRw+CjgWABlFYAy8sfhluxdFl5SOvZPbb z2xGkeynZVkBBu0PqV9JQTBrAoDBTp0vR6TYO0Yyz/N0lbxs9vty0CoLFhAE6f2BHXkl6FgA+C1Ag+uxH3TPh5ZjPF+8qnJeHu/5X3RRXjxe99vs9zq5MCMkI8tl4uDXvz5uJZhz4onxKsHrpnZmW75jAcBAaKB SrHvaKT/No6fkZWU8L+dmDnM6JnP8iP3XgJdDV9kQf8T+vHro9tvjH1nLVo89SOqzP7H qtjeKU3udyDcTbB0PgGYa2YyOBtjrlvJ4smd/PC3gGr9rV35TsRzKbKAJn6+TDfzLvxSuDrivMMd+Xq5n1arASjPbgeBtF/A7gZyy9rL0WvvXq1v086ZpAxjcqULVFtNtvwDalf1FHTd5htauLVRVVU5KpX I7UHbbOwM97nZy1M+uLIbtrWKCoYuvmYOzwFBetsswB06+r0BbwcO28qRPKn 25GJjZCzX2U3zHmexpS/yREpc74/6oZeojbVabhLYGgG+TnIbjCQDBsP3D2MgppyhbwCpTYLpMKsep3XauaMdlIc 8nOIj6+xJqWqsB0LFXwtTgdmCtKDV38BtduTKMnnpqPAekzqRNKlMqM2fX7M ujXXZHkMfEXUYHW/qbBRwYZ3T2zgE/P+O/neztYLvLfq8AHL+mTt1WJ9sM20+j1cDbqaI7FgBlA1vVyOngd9m+r6UfeyP2 C6CChs627Sgu2d//fnwrCBss3VUgx+LkuCp87WvjVOHzuLnRnce8UPJdBYKOu5fdZpdL2fSSNC/XJNGxLcD+2SKeAaraKadUyVvld++3Xwjr1sVio7bsj/CnkwZlgTj6y1/WZ/bNN8egKXN4dLQdApm5fHk05rPvEHibvErG1sCsLQMuKUn+sXOZXsqLgWDnDi 5HBemYzeozQDsDoMt++btm/0ouGH788RCWLlW2ji04uuz/jLtweuosLhVZtnF2hu3foEqDxxv1gYDDeJTczVtHuv3slAkgLi1jMNhhrxmY a38muX1r/UfeU+eTnzt37uw9BBIA/KS6HyTf6bRDXtYSbY7t5kees0Ef/exnw8hnPlM3IaezPZiDBNHRnBHk9Iqvh+f6dupuBIU+2lkhLt/2MCmeHUoKxmCwpZ+A4KBHPoX4ToLZ0hdZ0vHaYQKAjhUGKOtp2qF0AJrN1+z n3ru++tW6OpdlDz5YX9avvDJ3ejyAHXVU3eHmeGY3UNauMl7deLm+ZGX24qp AINi5otFLJroU9LbYWravX5+3VeMljO4OsQKUDQw83xHyk4E4sO9851hRZhI rgd34iVcBxx8fsRw+plikypxexlOpRjJ0SuWc7m37wbE67cteGR60x9NsFwK NlzD8//IBUDvkkLFl1vZ8bvkGZnqTe6wGV7jMcWU86YMbyctkOc+WdwWCP4RyyThC4N q2NPz0M2Hz/7ok9B3zzjDvpPfFalsNgI5dBvpBEk3nudeeD4IEk8BdLPFcn2cw8s1vTtrxs qHB9e0r40kfjNzrpzLyXp7bs20o7u/JZaDK4/zB+x6I2drCXcLGT/xRWPh//1TipnGtac02KDYarKaqt0NdBMM1O/kLRs8+e8rOly0w7ZSjxC/jNSObjD3KDD36szjzCYThp/8j1H51iaprCc+qAGip5V4Zh3/yk/GOGWwOfjr1c7mXn/p9mWmgy5xexlNVjWTolMnLeOj2vPmNoX/1HWGnM08N3a/bJ2y9KjvoImwBZtUW0EK766p2oIuOt8PTyD/+Y5zl8Vo+e9iD0sif/Vl+Um7ZfpMFcJJAy7l4yksObiSrkqsMcmx224wfWrQwbPzvnwq9b/v1sPt930HUMuywAcClXe3cc+M1spzPrI+zPxsGnfRbHpUpFJCj5Pg07003kq FXJRe/771Hhz3X2WWtC0Bvvxl6xwsAlnuu7W2W42AOd7qMKyz93L1D1iGQU9oRCHRR 9am7qlf5KrxDnQFY3rmrF51vT/JG7F8+5XxWBOSCeK8/u6EjXicwjvHOSfO+TY1k6Enu7Ynv7bRC7zArQNzr7dIO4DHuiP2ZoyA+KrXt QDBq//w5atfK7YT1dlfulu/Wf1vguPceG+9gEeAAAAfZSURBVBYvXlyoXk7TzPT5q6+r92Xx3ovDse89Jg8 Y6RYMZRlfvkzeqKzX71gA0AF1wjdItJfVPvrR/HYuzh+1J3ljxy479SPP7vXzavfIddc1tK06qvDHzzozrHn44She9dHTwxkfX VWlmvPXP/dcuOa6+hPGQ5YfEpYsKb8so1/eOeSvvf66aGf5suXhuGPG/pdAY+D18wozQjrN8lO9jgVA2pB0YCSv2d+46oYOM1uPcXM5zvc3fG66Kd8Wp NMqlvMp9/Aj9UBo1UYjfTktdawPal9e+vDSMl5vMvSsOQOoY76zcWZnzuWBDTPbQ9z39a DHBCP2pI8neFMB73zsrF1rj45nCOir7y/VlPF89RPJpavxVL4Kz5oASBvYZc/v/VO8kWRmxwc9NvsF8ZLPAmCqsOaRNQUTmzZvCmsfL744WlCYocxEjvaBI12Pm 23WrAwAXpnyL3CMXHZZCO6ZeDz0nXBC3se4OhAg0wCP87KIwYdO/GBubW3y5rAEHPxYMcATAXoT6toegBPX2LZDIviqnLrW2vnIDx+x4JzaCjUrz gB00i9Zhfv4vJjh3tyNzj/66LFbvXboG73++inv+3KgtgBO5Jzkce7a/zd+kP/k4gvDravHflHsWHd4ky3w9++5O1x2xeWFICG4zjn7f3i1SG/atDmcfOqH8xVnwfwF4aovfinsv9/+Uc44ERR/+Kn/WTibcHj83KX/OyyYP3+czYkYHVsBFNlqIHmBv54fvfxyseN1fi1x/oj9rftkH+/mhjOCpZ4BBhj0JdmlnIIiUwtfufbqgvPh+2CQHvb+8FPnFZyP7Mav/00MCukJo++3G9py5lmfCJu3bJZKzOtgqktN8p+/8vO5DoSfUAVBkulYACTtiFkfBDDiq1k8u+cW7znnhBrLvi73ltpDnml0PvX5 pX7F8uWBmRX57gyAU/4mexGTGfrlL14VE3QKzHzBX331a+HOv78jvz9AECjYpAPmsvPmb347n/Xo3M2byDZBVn93dR4gn/30Z8K3v3FTWPn2+qH3VpP5rWiHDAANRNzzbWmPP91mju/ed9/A830Bl4PDa9ZM28yX3TW2pwJacoXhaRUAy3HHHnNMIFBI0B7QUZmjjlwZbRI kH/rA2NkCx3pgRnPPAUwgCO6+955I3vq91REj54YR8MEPnBgxH5wbWoVZtQKo8e z5w088EUb+4A+ChX991rPXcx/AZr2//68y04G1Auy/f33PfUO292JbS7MwvJVvt/cHM9Bqoby/fNyPV9Iz8EH17HPFw6O2HFQJGoECTgG1YvmKKGJV8PWuT+ypfCPc8UMgnShd rnjt2gKA1A5gkL1zNdiqm33WXxmIL5xuAevXPytRvqLA8E7WXp4rJgQ2adez dhBVEKDCeaPszJEUbyrb8QBoqpVtUPIOLxvgx9w5oJnm+Nntg0MHt2Zs7L//fvmlo19RJiqbnqUa6c+aAKhcCRq1fhplfvaXmeWA5WdhmY7n+aW+vhqMP1D6 wPBlRSsoOWMQDAI9n9DKKSx5K3jWBEArjZ4JXS3HOIXTusBfsskhkvmA8Es+ cu9cvxpwrS/wZwPxhL1teN6e2irdqUyeWXkIpGOtLGMaiKlgOZfZ5sHPZFaJFcvqBzB0dDq H1hUENOBn7N3uq2Z33zt28ve2KcMyL8f7KwQd9NQ22uov+Sg7WZgVK0CVs6v 4k+1sVbnH1j6Wi9JZqUFHgZnHZRqzEUdxVli8996xrD+UxUCJl4bHRh3yrCT s/7euHruU8yd9jGDzgosujNf2l10xdmOH9wuAY99zTH5p+TF7ZL3qtNPtULnED onPxoBga2h1O5gVARB7Zx9TWcpkYzLYXz8fstweP7u7kthjpuJEZiiyVfZK2 mWfr9/kufra+sscCgr0NYvPMAcxk8n7m0Lo6FYwdgUECLeOSQKuPHRw5HYzKw3Bxgp wgd2OFqBDAKRtl7wKd1cJZoBPsM21xA3rheeff/5JPT094xpMB1rtxFTber/90IJVGmfThz74wdDX21cw2T/QHwYGBsPuu+9uN31WhN84/Igo50HMwMBA5F1y4UVhnT3E4jJvhd1B5F7CggULwhGHHx5eeumlKKMQwXTxB RflNja8tCE89XS93DlnnxO4lse5BNSpHz4lnHVm/ZfL1SBWjSX2nILbw9oGWKVo1xG/fngcO8ZvaGgoXHLJJTdauZctbbG03dKwpQJ0FXIzm2FUF1mKvxG0bdu2W/r66gPd6rI1s83snPXpHIft27eH+fPnH2e9edpS5W8EzYotQDPeD4B4nXCHb0 c7659Mn6fa1nYHwKgN6IiluBSpw+qE8u0c9LK6ZqId6mNZfVPh0dYGthlnxp txL4V2XwbSmCFLA741dCJNyGfCEb7edtIz2ZfUtsszzow3414K7VwBiEIict DSNvv9Gh6LcR7YzdLOlnotvQpTGwEczoHvJUvs+9ssMd6Me+kq0M4A0Oznxw q5HUYjARo5z9IcMq/ClEYgTi6zsNES48s4M96Vq0A7A4AIpCH8qpEuP4lWnM/sF8/IV2GSI8BMZxVgUuF8LgEZb8Z9Vq0A1p64LBEAzHwCsd3nEavyFQdaZVkJmPk 4f9asAIw2DSRCwTQSxzPzcX4770lYda9IYJYztqwEzHoleKXQ7kFXfXK4cGn jXmVOegQUCMIYKt0C/j9zn4H7CiPWFQAAAABJRU5ErkJggg==
www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/115.pdf
Hope it works, other wise suggest to Google "ICAO Phraseology" there the source is accessable.

[hetfield]

Aircraft has commenced take-off roll:

So it should be something like:


TWR: Big Jet 345 stop immediately, (Big Jet 345 stop immediately)!

A/C: Stopping, Big Jet 345

[DingerX]

Please help me to understand:

The ICAO standard phraseology (under the rubric "Cancelling Take-off Clearance") requires the controller to assess the aircraft's state (rolling down the runway or not) and then transmit the state-appropriate message using equivocal terms ('hold', 'position', 'stop' -- which can and play the role of adjectives, verbs and nouns), even though the desired effect (cancelling take-off clearance) is the same, regardless of state.

So, if during the time the controller screams "Cancel take-off", the aircraft starts to move, is the phraseology suddenly non-standard? Does it make a difference? Is the appropriate response suddenly, "Too late, I'm already rolling! See you in H*ll, suckers!"

The horrible US phraseology incorporates the ICAO phraseology for one of the two states, in fact, the state that uses univocal words, and extends them to the rolling state (to which it would be applied anyway); as a result, the phraseology is completely different for take-off than for taxi, and the controller need not vary the wording to account for something that has no effect on the desired outcome. For those at the pointy end, the meaning should be immediately clear, unless, of course, they're completely incompetent, as appears to be the case.

Is there an ambiguity here?
I'm sure there are plenty of examples of non-standard phraseology causing problems, but this isn't one of them.

[Annex14]

In a stress situation - not to talk of it as an emergency yet - like the one that started the discussion, it doesn´t make sense to be "more Catholic than the Pope". Sure, any measure taken in due time to avoid the worst is okay.

I think the crux of the ongoing discussion about that event is furtelized by the diverging opinions about good r/t procedures. The opposition is attached to the "high speed litany" type of instructions and clearances obviously used excessively. Sure, those in the community that have English as their mother tongue have a big advantage over those that don´t. But just for these differences the ICAO standard phraseology was created.

Needless to state how well that worked in that BA 38 accident - see post # 62 - Probably we can come to common grounds if the "foreighners" accept that JFK is a very "extraordinary" spot, and the New Yorkers accept that around the globe there are many airports that handle much more traffic than JFK and ATC works well too.

[BrATCO]

Are you quibbling that ATC didn't give a (reason) for the cancelled takeoff clearance?



No, who cares about the actual reason ? It's written in the text : "cancel the takeoff clearance only for the purpose of safety. "
When a controller says "cancel take-off", pilot knows he's got to stop his ACFT ASAP, whatever the actual threat.

In MY (French) phraseology, "clear", "cleared", "clearance", and everything that could be a derivation from "clear" is reserved to TAKE-OFF and LAND clearances. I (French) wouldn't say "clearance" in order to abort a take-off.
But my point in the last paragraph of my previous post was that spoken language is faster (thus safer in this very case) than CPDLC. Phraseology or not, the goal was achieved : LH411 understood the message was for him and stopped in time.
Most of the times, phraseology can not be stuck to in emergency situations. Phraseology must be used to avoid misunderstandings, thus emergency situations.

(To answer your question : in my phraseo, a message includes a callsign... but, you're right, that's quibbling.:O)

When I control (with my French accent) a USofA or English-speaking-Canadian flight, my SOP is to give a direct and to spell the fix in the same message.
Not because I think the pilot's English is awful : because I know he comes from abroad, procedures are different on his continent and his ear is not used to my accent.
I can't easily change my accent, but I don't bother spelling, saying again and trying in other words when needed. Being clear and understood is part of my job. When I know this pilot has understood what I mean, I can move on to the next emergency message... ;)

[Denti]

When I control (with my French accent) a USofA or English-speaking-Canadian flight, my SOP is to give a direct and to spell the fix in the same message.

Many at your center do not do that, only when asked to say again the fix or spell it they do. Sadly, especially as VOR names need quite a bit of effort to find (well, at least in my EFB-centered outfit).

[pattern_is_full]

Seems to me we're barking up the wrong tree.

Whatever the controller may have said to the Lufthansa flight - there was no misunderstanding there. LH aborted their takeoff. So "Takeoff clearance cancelled" did the job.

It was EA (taxiing in, not taking off) that ended up in the wrong place. The real question is, what was it that EgyptAir did not understand, and what instructions were issued to EA (and in what words)?

[clunckdriver]

Anex 14, You wont get any flak from me about our bilingual ATC in parts of Canada, even though I live in a French speaking area, and am considered to be fluent in both French and English, the problem is the whole issue became a political football so there is not a hope in Hell of it changing, thats the reality of Canada, but there are many places where operational logic is secondry to politics and emotion.

[golfyankeesierra]

VOR names need quite a bit of effort to find (well, at least in my EFB-centered outfit)
(Sorry, offtopic but..) You mean that maps are in the EFB as well? No more unfolding newspaper sized maps?

[Spitoon]

This thread has gone very quiet. Does anyone know what will happen next? I tried to find an incident report to see if there was any more factual information available but can't find a report in any of the US reporting systems. Did it actually happen? More seriously, is it being properly investigated?

[pattern_is_full]

Did it actually happen?

If not, someone did an awfully good job of faking about 10 minutes of ATC recordings. ;)

The FAA did give this statement to at least one news organization:

"The pilot of Egypt Air 986 read back the taxi instructions correctly; however failed to turn as instructed. The aircraft crossed the hold 'short line' for Runway 22R. The hold 'short line' is 250 feet short of Runway 22R. Egypt Air 986 did not enter the runway. Air traffic control instructed Lufthansa 411 to stop its takeoff roll. Lufthansa 411 stopped before it reached the Egypt Air 986. The FAA investigation will determine the closest proximity of the aircraft.""

FAA Investigates Near Miss On JFK Runway - WPIX (http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-faa-near-miss-jfk,0,1783237.story)

- but I don't know why the incident doesn't show up on FAA or NTSB billboards. No-injury, no-damage incident involving non-US operators (one from a country in political turmoil)?

[Microburst2002]

I think instinct played an important role here.
You know all that stuff about the primitive brain and all that?
I think the ATC's brain noticed the conflict at an insctintive level, you know, probably with a shiver in his spine, and then the "secondary" brain reacted promptly.

The tone he used was, inmho, perfect. Because probably activated the LH pilot's instinctive brain, too. I bet that they would have rejected take off exactly the same if the ATCo had said "coffe with milk, too sugar" using the same tone.

It is like the naughty kid who always ignores his mothers "don't do this, dont do that, get out of there, drop that..." but who instinctively obeys when the mother voice is genuenily alarmed.

that is communication, too.

On the side of the pilots, it looks very cool to be cool even in a very bad scenario, like an engine burning and severe hydraulic problems and stay calm with a professional, manly tone. But in other scenarios an alarmed voice can do a better job. Sully's "unable" and other communications had an excellent tone, he looked to be in control of the situation, managing it with an adequate stress level (a high one). JFKs ATCo averted a possible reedition of Tenerife, which would have occurred in a matter of seconds. His tone was just what it was required. they did great job, in that. they have to improve their communications, though, and be more international-minded. the macho attitude of "if you can't manage JFK comms, you don't have the right stuff" is a wrong attitude.

hopefully he saw, understood and averted the danger :D

by the way, i assume there was a take off clearance. Why are the recordings missing that? I will not trust any internet recording anymore

[asc12]

by the way, i assume there was a take off clearance. Why are the recordings missing that? I will not trust any internet recording anymore

It's because the liveATC recordings are very often obtained on scanners. They make an effort, sometimes less successfully than others, to have an appropriate number of frequencies on a "feed," but you're always going to miss a lot. The upside is that there's not much dead air, but it can be confusing.

[Dunhovrin]

Got to say, I heard Tower give EgyptAir the number to call, I think after he was airbourne but it might have been in the queue. We both discussed how that's going to really focus your mind during the most critical part of a flight. Then went back to looking for robbers round the back of the cargo hangars... Anyway, I'd have already been ****ting myself and that is not going to help.

And.. back to the mechanics of the incursion. I know it was in daylight but that corner is a muddy fudger at the best of times. There is a morass of concrete, the marker boards are in the wrong place and, at night, no lights worth mentioning. There but for the grace of dog...