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Near miss on JFK runway

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Near miss on JFK runway

Old 22nd Jun 2011, 10:01
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Near miss on JFK runway

New York Post: Near miss on JFK runway Jumbo jets seconds from tragic hit

A Lufthansa jumbo jet speeding toward takeoff was forced to a screeching halt on a Kennedy Airport runway to avoid a catastrophic collision with an EgyptAir plane that made a wrong turn into its path, sources told The Post.

"Cancel take off! Cancel take off plans!" yelled a frightened air controller who saw that the Munich-bound Lufthansa Airbus A340 was headed toward a collision with an Egypt Air Boeing 777 at around 6:50 p.m. Monday.

"Lufthansa 411 heavy is rejecting takeoff," the pilot radioed back.

The aborted liftoff came as the German airliner was steaming down Runway 22R, where an EgyptAir plane was precariously perched less than a mile away, officials said.

"Those two were coming together," radioed an unidentified pilot who witnessed the near-disaster.

A few minutes later, a pilot aboard a Virgin America flight arriving from Los Angeles piped in: "That was quite a show."

The Lufthansa plane was cleared for takeoff seconds before the incident. Its pilots had to slam the brakes so hard, they worried they had become dangerously hot.

"It was close," said an air-control source who believes the EgyptAir flight ended up in the path of the Lufthansa jet after its crew took a wrong turn.

Officials could not say how close the two planes came to colliding. FAA spokeswoman Holly Baker said it might take few days for investigators to sort out some of the basic details of the incident................
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 10:08
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Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 11:25
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Angel

That's very true me thinks.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 11:54
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A Lufthansa jumbo jet speeding toward takeoff was forced to a screeching halt on a Kennedy Airport runway to avoid a catastrophic collision with an EgyptAir plane that made a wrong turn into its path, sources told The Post.
Been on this flight on 6/11/11 , BTW as far as I know "the" Jumbo Jet is the Boeing 747 only , my plane was an A340/600
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 12:18
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I've read the AV Herald some hours ago about it. Really frightening. Might have been another Tenerife disaster. I think the NTSB will open an inquiry very soon.
Well done from ATC and DLH crew
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 13:50
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Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.
22nd Jun 2011 05:01
have to agree with dontdoit that JFK ATCOs do, at times, seem to have watched too many aviation movie dramas
.


How about alerting a full A346 that a B773 captain has entered the departure runway accidentally?
Does that make a good controller?

Or wait, let me guess he just got lucky.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:02
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What garbage..
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:05
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dontdoit:

Third world ATC; talking fast & controlling your aircraft in the style of a trucker operating a CB radio does not make you a good controller.
Not to mention third world pilots who can't avoid taxiing onto the active runway without a clearance to do so.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:16
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Presumably the normal JFK standard of impressing your colleagues with your words-per-minute rate :

"Lufthansa123ClearedTakeoff22RightAmerican456LineUp22RightEg yptair789TaxiZuluViaDeltaMikeNovemberRomeoAmerican456 .....".
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:21
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ignorant opinionated blame game response to an alarmest newspaper quote.

This is no longer suitable for R&N
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:31
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Would it be appropriate to tip one's cap to the controller for catching a developing dangerous situation and making the timely call?

*tips cap*

People make mistakes now and again, be it the EgyptAir crew perhaps making a wrong turn, or his controller perhaps giving him a "not quite right" set of instructions.

That other set of eyes is there, catches an error, and has the SA to see what was up, and act. I see this as a good news story.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 14:36
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Agree with Lomapaseo.We cant know.JFK controllers are very good but are an acquired taste.They wont suffer fools gladly.Theres no mollycoddling.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 15:13
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JFK Near Miss

Ok this was a near disaster averted by quick ATC reactions.

However, as many non-native English (US) flight crew operate into JFK, ATC RT to these operators needs to shorter, slower, understandable and requiring a response (read back) to confirm understanding.

The procedure of transmitting to 3 A/C in one transmission maybe OK for local operators who taxi the same route daily and are local wise.

Greater understanding of how non-native English speakers decode JFK RT transmission would provide greater insight on potential misunderstandings.

Waving the ICAO RT Phraseology text book isnít always going to fix this sort of problem. In some areas of the world non ICAO RT is the norm and possibly the best way to communicate, less confusing for ATC.

Active Listening is an answer;
Active listening has several benefits. First, it forces people to listen attentively to others. Second, it avoids misunderstandings, as people have to confirm that they do really understand what another person has said. http://www.colorado.edu/conflict/pea...nt/activel.htm
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 16:30
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ATC tape


wow
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 16:39
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Respect the media?

There was a post on the AF447 thread asking why the media isn't respected by those in aviation. Here is a perfect example. Yes, it is a story that originated in the New York Post, a publication not known for objectivity, but other media outlets carried the story, often adding their own sensationalist slant to what the post used.

CBS proclaimed that the controllers "screamed" at the Lufthansa pilot. Listen for yourself, does this sound like screaming?

On tape: frantic controllers call off takeoff - CBS News

The various reports state that the aircraft was "speeding" to takeoff, "steaming" down the runway, and that the aircraft came to a "screeching" halt, yet the controller told the pilot to "cancel takeoff plans". It sounds more like he had just started to roll, and when did you last hear an aircraft brakes screech, other than the occasional juddering? The FAA said afterwards that the two aircraft stopped a good distance apart. The LH couldn't have been anywhere near V1, as implied by the news reports, though it did to a rejected takeoff brake inspection before heading for takeoff again.

Yes, runway incursions are serious business, but there is no need to build up the story with sensationalist blather.
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 16:54
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Couldn't agree with you more ST27. I do get annoyed at the media's continuous decision to over-hype any incident regardless of how minor or how major (in this case) it is.

Simple things such as during on American News Channels broadcast about the recently discovered findings from the AF447 black boxes (I think either CBS or FOX) they kept referring to the 'Airbus A330' as a 'Jumbo Jet'. Why can't they just have someone on call in the Aviation industry to confirm and provide the basic information for incidents.

Also an incident closer to home was the Thomson 738 incident at Newcastle Airport last year when they said it went off the runway and continued to emphasise that 'no-one was injured'. Of course no one was seeing as the airport never went off the runway, it continued onto the overrun area and the pilot was more than happy to turn.

I'll stop ranting...
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 16:58
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Well, On that audio link there is NO take off clearance. Lufty responds with "line up and wait 22R inital altitude 4000' ". Next thing is "cancel take off plans" from ATC (seems a bit arcane but it worked ok)
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:03
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Yeah yeah but IS the tape continuous or have bits been edited??
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:06
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@Moe Syzlak It's probably been edited, at least that's what it appears like to me
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Old 22nd Jun 2011, 17:10
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From the folks at CBS news. Not sure of accuracy.
- Federal authorities are investigating.

- According to the FAA, EgyptAir Flight 986 was instructed to stay behind a "hold line," 250 feet behind the runway.

- FAA spokeswoman Kathleen Bergen says the EgyptAir pilot failed to stay behind the line, but didn't enter the runway.

- Bergen says the Lufthansa plane stopped "a considerable distance" from the EgyptAir jet.
I am guessing the reporter means "hold short line" in second bullet.
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