Basic/Traffic/FIS???

[monkeyscribbler]

Originally posted this on the GA forum but this place seems more appropriate. Can any of you nice ATCers/ RT examiners help out a poor student?

thanks



Basic/Traffic/FIS???
Hello all,

new to flying and new to PPRuNe so be nice...

I have my skills test and r/t practical this weekend. Where i fly we have a LARS but only ever ask for Basic service.

I've read the definitions of each service but they dont mean much in practical terms to me. Can anyone explain them in simple terms, and explain what an R/T examiner means when he says I should "which is the safest and what kind of station can provide which."

all help gratefully received.

[SilentHandover]

Air Space Safety: ATSOCAS 917 (http://www.airspacesafety.com/content/ATSOCAS.asp#)

Try looking here. Hope it helps.

[Over+Out]

Bring back RIS and RAS
A much easier system to understand !

[jking101]

I’m just about to finish my radar training so have just had it all drilled into me about what each service means. Basically you have 3 services outside controlled airspace:
Basic service: you get weather information and any other information that may help your flight for example if it is known that your destination is closed you will be told, you can get general traffic information something like “there is a lot of traffic to the south of Brize” something like that.
Traffic service: we identify you with a squawk or turn or some other method so I know which blip on the screen is you, I tell you where any conflicting traffic is and any information you would also get with a basic service but the traffic information is more specific to you such as, traffic 12 o’clock 10 miles right to left indicating FL50 etc. all you need then is to let ATC know when you are climbing or descending or turning so we know if that will take you into conflict with any other traffic but you are responsible for not hitting anyone
Deconfliction service: Again we identify you and you shouldn’t climb descend or turn without telling us 1st it’s the same as a traffic service but when we pass you information on traffic we give you a heading or climb or decent to keep you away from it for example G-XX traffic 2 o’clock 12 miles right to left if not sighted turn right heading XXX, you should not really ask for this if you are VFR as the deconfliction advice may take you into IMC but if you let ATC know you must stay VFR they will try to keep you VMC
As for R/T just learn what info we need like, callsign departure and destination aerodrome, ac type and how to ask for the service.
PS FIS doesnt exist anymore thats the basic service now

Hope it helps

[RPMcMurphy]

Three services outside controlled airspace you say? Better get back to the books and look up Procedural Service.

[Crazy Voyager]

I've been told a traffic service can be provided without a radar, is that true?

[heretostay]

I've been told a traffic service can be provided without a radar, is that true?


Only when the ATCOs Crystal Ball is serviceable.

[heretostay]

I’m just about to finish my radar training so have just had it all drilled into me about what each service means. Basically you have 3 services outside controlled airspace:


Which college? We need to know which one to avoid sending trainees to!:}

[Barnaby the Bear]

Just to add.. A Traffic service can only be provided with a Radar.
With all the services you are always Ultimately responsible for your own separation even a Deconfliction service.
And don't forget Procedural Service.

[Glamdring]

Three services outside controlled airspace you say? Better get back to the books and look up Procedural Service.

...and Alerting Service :}

[rodan]

PS FIS doesnt exist anymore thats the basic service now
Not true. The various ATSOCAS, BS, TS and DS, are collectively known as the Flight Information Services in the UK, as mandated by ICAO.

[bingofuel]

Three services outside controlled airspace you say

Give the guy a break, he did say basically 3 services, and then explained the 3 services normally used day to day by a GA pilot.He did not say 'only 3'

I think he was just trying to help the new guy!

[Occams Razor]

With all the services you are always Ultimately responsible for your own separation even a Deconfliction service.
...and also responsible for your own terrain clearance. No DS to be provided below ATC terrain safe level, pilots to be reminded they are on their own terrain clearance below this level on a TS.

5 types of service...alerting, procedural, basic, traffic, deconfliction.

Can't provide a TS without radar, as the aircraft needs to be identified.

[Spitoon]

5 types of service...alerting, procedural, basic, traffic, deconfliction.
If you are classifying services in ICAO terms we should start with Air Traffic Services which consist of the Air Traffic Control Service, the Flight Information Service and the Alerting Service. In the UK the FIS has been further sub-divided into basic, traffic, deconfliction and procedural services. The Alerting service is a separate entity and, if we're getting pedantic, it should not be considered as part of the FIS.

[Glamdring]

If we are getting pedantic, the UK FIS have been further divided into basic, offshore basic, traffic, offshore traffic, deconfliction, offshore deconfliction and procedural services. :ok::cool:

[LEGAL TENDER]

Load of ****e

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Well said Legal Tender. :D


The thread started with a simple question.

[Helen49]

The simple answer to the simple question is........read CAP774 available on the CAA website free of charge. If you still have any difficulties, suggest you visit a radar equipped ATC unit and have a chat with the ATCOs.

It is essential that you understand the system outside controlled airspace in the interests of both yourself and the ATS units to whom you speak as explained in the CAP.

[possibleconsequences]

Monkeyscribbler,

If you are learning to fly in the south try asking for a visit to ATC. Bournemouth maybe.Give them a call.

[Standard Noise]

I like threads like this one, they make I laugh!

something like “there is a lot of traffic to the south of Brize”
Aye, there would be, the south of England is usually busy!

As for bringing back RAS and RIS, bollox to that, it's much better having no responsibility!

[2 sheds]

It must be of some concern that the original poster has apparently reached the stage of the skills test and the RTF test but is very vague in his understanding of this topic. In other words, some of his training time has been wasted - perhaps questions should be asked of the training organisation.

Full marks for querying, Monkey, but SilentHandover and Helen49 have given the best advice. You should have been pointed in that direction by your instructors - but it does require a bit a study and commitment and your part, there is no instant brief answer on a forum such as this.

2 s

[monkeyscribbler]

thanks to all those who tried to help.

a bit of non-jargon advice is invaluable to those of us who are not everyday practitioners of this stuff.

[monkeyscribbler]

no examples in CAP 413 and nothing useful in safety sense 22.

Can anyone be more specific than 413? (callsign, type, eta point of entry).

i.e. do you do a normal initial call (station, call sign, "request Special VFR") followed by the longer bit on acknowledgement (c/s, type, from, to, loc, alt/QNH, request)

or

is there some other way?

[mad_jock]

Just use

Who your talking to,who you are,what you are, what you want.

Then do as your told.

eg
Jersey zone G-POAI PA28 requesting basic service and SVFR transit Dinard.

G-POAI remain clear of the zone squawk 7677 with ident basic service.

Squawk 7677 with ident basic service G-POAI.

G-POAI cleared into the zone SVFR not above altitude 2000ft qnh 1013 etc etc.

Short and sweet for the intial call but always remember to give an indication of what you want otherwise the next call will just be "pass your message" which is a ball ache for all concerned. Then the controller will ask you suprisingly little depending on what they require or tell you its not possible.

Another time you will get it is if you are operating in controlled airspace at night.

BTW alot of pilots don't have a clue what SVFR is anyway, they won't mention it in the intial call but will be cleared by ATC for transit etc SVFR.

[2 sheds]

remain clear of the zone
a lot of pilots don't have a clue what SVFR is anyway
they won't mention it in the intial call but will be cleared by ATC for transit etc SVFR

I hope not...in all three instances.

2 s

[mad_jock]

Most really don't have a clue and to be honest neither do I.

I know the controller has to maintain sparation. Either visually from the tower or by other means.

I know you can't get VFR in controlled airspace at night only SVFR

You need SVFR if you want to go into class A you can't get VFR

You can't get SVFR for crossing airways unless you can con a mil controller into it.

If a controller clears you SVFR read it back continue looking out the window and don't hit anything.

Thats in the UK, other countries its different and best not gone near in my experence if you have the option of an IFR clearance.

[2 sheds]

Most really don't have a clue and to be honest neither do I.

...which is evident from your brief "explanation", each point of which is a half-truth! And you are an ATPL and FI? How do you instruct your students?

And why are we following this line when the post originator is a student pilot?

2 s

[mad_jock]

I freely admit it, never instructed in controlled airspace.

As a CAT pilot we always have IFR clearances. I think the last time I accepted SVFR was 7 years ago due to purple airspace in a regional airport.

There is very little in both the PPL air law or the ATPl airlaw about SVFR.

Personally I am not suprised that the OP student doesn't have a clue about SVFR his instructor won't either.

The only pilots that do have a clue about it are ATCO's.

[Helen49]

In UK airspace, SVFR is not 'a right' and is only available at the ATCO's discretion, to pilots/aircraft unable to comply with the IFR. It is intended to enable such pilots/aircraft to reach locations which are in airspace which extends down to the surface, that is, it is not possible to remain clear of such airspace by flying underneath.

SVFR would be more aptly name SIFR.

[2 sheds]

SVFR is not 'a right' and is only available at the ATCO's discretion
That is rather misleading - there is no mention in the procedures about ATCOs using "discretion" - the main requirement is that such flights should not hinder, i.e. delay, IFR flights.

2 s

[Helen49]

2s. accepted. Semantics!

[2 sheds]

Helen - thank you! I take that as a compliment in this context. There are so many half-truths, inaccuracies and pieces of misleading information on threads such as this that most of the time the original poster would be better served being referred, in Post 2, to an authoritative flying training manual, the ANO or the AIP, etc and ending it all there! One recurring aspect seems to be that some flying training organisations/instructors appear to be falling down on the job.

2 s

[mad_jock]

2 sheds not getting snotty but could correct my half truths please?

For my education and anyone else searching on the topic.

[2 sheds]

Mad Jock - understood entirely. My concern was that if only a few unqualified snippets are quoted, the uninitiated can get entirely the wrong understanding. That said, I think that details of Special VFR flights are among the last things that the thread originator needs to worry about, except for substituting "Special VFR" for "VFR" if it were to arise in an RTF test.

I don't wish to make a meal of it, but since you asked...!


"Controller has to maintain separation..." - from which other flights? Depending on circumstances, not necessarily from all others; there could be transit flights operating legitimately under VFR in a Class D CTR.
"No VFR in controlled airspace at night, only Special VFR..." - as there was no reference to CTRs only, the reader might infer "any controlled airspace." Similarly, with the reference to Class A CAS.
Reference to crossing airways as a Special VFR flight - first says you cannot, then says that a military controller might be "conned" into it! No such animal as a Special VFR flight across an airway, such flights only relate to CTRs. However, it is possible, under certain conditions to obtain a crossing clearance in VMC by day.

Bedtime reading, for ops in the UK -


AIP ENR 1-2-1, Para 2.1 - Special VFR.
AIP ENR 1-1-1-3, para 4.1.6 - airway crossing.

I'll bet you wish you hadn't asked!

Cheers

2 s

[Helen49]

2s

I agree entirely with your sentiments about all the waffle and mistaken ideas posted on subjects which are pretty much black and white. Always best to refer to the definitive document in my view but perhaps some of the posters don't know where to find the correct doc!

Reminds me of a senior flying instructor relating the fact that in a particular country VFR was not allowed at night; when I informed him that the same rule applied in the UK he challenged me, leaving me to resort to chapter and verse in the ANO!

I realise that the whole business of IMC/VMC; IFR/VFR; airspace categories etc is complex but the understanding of many leaves much to be desired.

[mad_jock]

thanks for that 2 sheds.

Although I don't think my advise to students is to far wrong

If a controller clears you SVFR read it back continue looking out the window and don't hit anything.

And mil controllers can be good for a few things that a civi controller won't go near.

eg visual climb against under radar control for example.

I might add the lack of knowledge about SVFR is really only for plank drivers the rotary pilots are alot more clued up about it (or seem to be)

There is proberly a whole raft of commercial pilots out there that have never been under a SVFR clearance in the UK. The US SVFR is quite a bit different and as almost all there flying training is done over there with only the IR done in the UK, it never comes up. Once you are flying the line there are only a very very few companys who will allow you to cancel IFR. So unless you are an instructor doing night ratings at an airfield in controlled airspace or based in the SE of england you won't go near it.

[LEGAL TENDER]

One recurring aspect seems to be that some flying training organisations/instructors appear to be falling down on the job.

To be fair, I was a PPL pilot before I was an ATCO, and all I ever knew about ATC was how to ask for a FIS (inthose days) and a transit in class D CAS.

A PPL is really about landing the thing in one piece, avoid getting lost, and having an idea about what to do in case the spinning bit at the front stops spinning...

45 hours training from scratch is really a short time to get up to speed with all aspects of aviating, navigating, communicating, and they really are dealt with in that order! So the communicating bit always gets the least attention for obvious reasons..

[mad_jock]

And you think CAT pilots are clueless with SVFR you should hear them with procedural approach if they are used to Vectored ILS all the time. If it wasn't so serious it would be funny.