Shoreham looking for two ATCOs

[firebird_uk]

Anyone up for it? We could do with the airport being open for more than 25% of the day!

Details here (http://www.shorehamairport.co.uk/links).

[Danscowpie]

What is the "renumeration package?".

The last time they advertised (last year I think) a mate applied just to see what he was offered, a pitiful salary in the region of £36K - one of the lowest rates for ADI & APC in the UK - and very small relocation expenses.
An interesting place to work, but the Airport Owners can hardly be described as one the most stable, having seriously proposed to withdraw ATC altogether earlier this year and it's also one of the most expensive places in the UK to live.

I can't imagine anyone in their right mind wanting to go there unless the salary and relocation package is substantialy improved, even then, who knows what the owners have in mind for the place?

[Roffa]

soaringhigh wrote...

Maybe employ someone from abroad then - there are many who would be thankful for a job, willing to work hard, and not go on strike unreasonably.

Are you suggesting UK ATC go on strike unreasonably? Are you confusing the legal requirements of SRATCOH with pig headedness? Did you actually engage any brain cells before you wrote the above statement?

Whatever good idea, I suggest employing some French controllers if they fancy the job. After all they never go on strike, unreasonably or otherwise :rolleyes:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Well said, Roffa. My thoughts exactly.

£36K? Retired NATS ATCOs get bigger pensions than that!!

[coolbeans]

36K is a lot of money by world standards and is certainly above the UK annual average.

Its :mad: all money for Tower/APP in that part of the country, unless you think ATCO's should be just making the national average?

Are you suggesting UK ATC go on strike unreasonably? Are you confusing the legal requirements of SRATCOH with pig headedness? Did you actually engage any brain cells before you wrote the above statement?


Scratcoh? thats that tea break thing we controllers use when we're being difficult isn't it :E

[Loki]

soaringhigh650

Airspace users are not paying my pension.

(and mine is less than 36K, admittedly I did leave early)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.>>

Interesting, wonder where they work?

[Roffa]

No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week.

That'll be the French again.

Since when was Shoreham violating SRATCOH? Do you have any brain cells of your own?

They're not. I just wonder why you bring in comments about striking unreasonably into a thread that has nothing to do with strikes. Re my brain cells, I do wonder (again) when I engage with folk like yourself.

And airspace users are getting VERY pissed off having to pay your pension as well as the salaries of other ATCO fatcats!

You'll need to elaborate on that one.

I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.

I have a great deal of respect for them as well. Ultimately though we're all pretty much able to make a career choice and then knowingly accept the rewards that go with it.

[coolbeans]

Crikey soaring high doesnt seem to like the "Fatcos"

I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.

Who's talking about respect? £36000 is not the going rate for tower and approach procedural, I'm confused as to where the comparison with front line troops comes into it, other than being emotive, would you like to mention the nurses next?

No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.

Examples please, whilst I dust off my cv/get my benefit application ready.

[2 sheds]

would you like to mention the nurses next?

OK - Nurses!

One aspect not yet mentioned, though...economic forces? A few suitable ATCOs on the market at the moment.

2 s

[anotherthing]

No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.

To be fair, I don't think soaringhigh650 is talking specifically about ATCOs with this statement, more about the UK Benefit system.

However Soaringhigh650, with respect everything else you mention is nothing more than the ramblings of the ignorant.

Your profile doesn't exactly say much apart from 'flying' so please enlighten us as to just exactly what knowledge are you bringing to the argument?


No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.
Covered above


And airspace users are getting VERY pissed off having to pay your pension as well as the salaries of other ATCO fatcats!
Care to explain? ATC is a service industry. airspace users pay for the service, or do you think that all the expensive infrastructure to maintain safety in a complex environment should be given to you for free?

Every industry charges its customers money. Part of those charges go towards staff costs. Depending on the industry, it could be a higher percentage of the income that goes to staff pay. For example, ATC is a very labour intensive job, hence the larger proportion of costs go towards staffing.

Go down to ASDA and start complaining that you are unhappy paying so much for a tin of beans... after all if they didn't pay their staff, they could reduce the cost of the groceries :ugh:


I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.
Front line soldiers get paid the going rate, there is no shortage of willing recruits. Like it or not when it comes to hiring staff for any job, market forces, to a geart extent, dictate the salaries. Respecting front line soldiers has absolutely nothing to do with ATC renumeration or route charges.
For the record though, and just to keep you straight, I too have respect for them, after all I was one of 'them' before I joined NATS, as were many of my colleagues... I suggest you talk about something you understand :mad:

So come mate, this is a free speech forum, but before you come on talking rubbish about things you know little about, tell us what your 'expertise' is, because the word 'flying' as an interest on your profile means nothing.

Many a pre-pubescent child is 'interested in flying'... having read some of your other posts, I personally think your are a hobby pilot, done most of your flying in the US where there are vast areas of clear airspace, who whinges about having to pay for a service, yet is (unlike some of the GA community) happy to see extensions of CAS as long as it isn't Class A, as it affords you some protection when you are bimbling around (but still don't want to pay for it)

Not far from the mark am I? As stated, this is a free speech forum, but please don't deride people when you know little about the subject (a fact easily gleaned when reading posts you have made on other threads)

[Use the Force]

:DHear Hear:D

[soaringhigh650]

I admit I was using various hyperboles in my previous posts.

But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost. I cannot compare working conditions between Europe and the US however.

Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average - quite a number of other jobs in other places in the world are also labour intensive (such as farming tea) and they can earn salaries of less than $1 a day.

PS. And as a matter of fact I do happily pay for US ATC - through taxes!

[Use the Force]

Here we go,

Enjoy controllers!
:}:}:}:}:}:}:}

[coolbeans]

Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average - quite a number of other jobs in other places in the world are also labour intensive (such as farming tea) and they can earn salaries of less than $1 a day.

I don't think anyone is looking for pity, merely commenting that if £36000 is the salary offered, it is low by comparison to similar ATCO postings in the area, and given recent problems at Shoreham, it doesnt seem like a particularly secure job.

Also given the choice between tea farming and Shoreham I'd probably go for the Shoreham job. In all honestly I'm not really sure where your going with the comparisons.

[PhiltheReaper]

I think before we get bogged down by a flame war it is important to point of a little more bluntly how market forces work.

A business will charge the maximum amount it can get away with, to generate the biggest profit margin.

The maximum amount is (usually) dictated by the demand from the consumer, and their perception of the supply.

Consumers rightly or wrongly assume that there is quite a bit of tea to go around, and so expect to pay a reasonably low price. In order for a business to win that sale, they have to compete in their pricing, and thus the price decreases. For more information see "Competition" in the Oxford English Dictionary, or one of its poorly spelt equivalents across the pond.

Air Traffic Control is more expensive than tea. This is because the qualifications and level of skill required by the labourer in the ATC business are much greater. Thus, whilst there is a healthy supply of willing ATCOs, this is maintained by (arguably - and for another time) good pay and conditions.

If NATS announced that it was merging with PG Tips, and that all operational labourers (i.e. tea farmers and ATCOs) would be paid the same $8 per week or so... NATS would find itself somewhat short staffed.

In general the more highly trained someone is, the more the expect in return for their services. To gain a place at the NATS training college, you need to represent less than 3% of those people who applied. I am assuming here, but I think probably most people would be successful in applying for a tea farming job.

The competition is therefore lower, and the prize less valued.

I hope that has helped you out a little, in understanding why the ATC community has reacted to your statements.

Phil

[chevvron]

Coolbeans: presumably by 'similar ATCO posts in the area' you are referring to Gatwick (which cannot really be called 'similar') so yes, you are correct, but do you know the rate offered for Dunsfold which IS similar? Obviously not.

[coolbeans]

Actually I was thinking of slightly further north and east, which is ADI/APP and handles a roughly comparable type of traffic.

I didnt think dunsfold had gone ATC yet, isn't it still A/G?

Edit due to database bork up

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost.>>

Presumably you referring to Air Navigation charges? Light aircraft pay not a single cent for many ATC services over here.

Europe is somewhat different from the USA. We have a dozen countries all crowded together and not a lot of space to play with. The USA has miles of space to play with, which will undoubtedly result in more traffic being moved. Unfortunately, mid-air collison statistics suggest that things are not quite so safe in the USA as they are over here. Surprisingly, perhaps, some US ailine pilots I have met preferred UK ATC to back home, maybe because things are quieter.

Last time I checked, US ATCOs were earning about twice what their their Brit counterparts got. Cost of living over there is dramatically less than over here (in the UK, gasoline is somewhere around $10 a gallon and food and housing is far more expensive).

Next time you want to compare jobs and salaries, try doing so with your heart surgeon......

[2 sheds]

Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average


Strange comment - it is they who determine the average!

2 s

[chevvron]

coolbeans if you're referring to Biggin then I don't consider it comparable as Biggiin has ILS and handles proportionally far more IFR traffic.
As for Dunsfold:Safeskys Ltd (http://www.safeskys.co.uk)

[coolbeans]

By that argument dunsfold isn't a valid comparison as it has far fewer movements than shoreham.

I'd still consider the salary low for adi/app and ojti, but as 2 sheds says market forces will dictate what happens i suppose.

[hangten]

Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average

Well, not everyone can earn less than the average, since then it wouldn't be the average. Then you'd hate all the same people again, except that we'd all be much poorer. Unless you're suggesting we should all earn an identical, average, wage? That's communism isn't it? No society in the world ever made the poor richer by making the rich poorer. They just made everyone poor.

Capitalism strives on market forces, and aerodrome control in the UK is subject to market forces. ATCOs are worth what they can demand. If Shoreham can find employees at that rate then they have done well for their business, but in our opinion (if I may summarise the thread) the ATCOs will be receiving less than is considered the 'going rate'.

As an aside, I can't help myself but to be on pedant watch:

Can I please clarify that the word is remuneration and not renumeration. It's from the latin remūnerātus, meaning to repay or reward and is not connected to numerālis, of or belonging to numbers. :8

[Chilli Monster]

But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost.

I currently work in an ACC where 75% of the Staff are ex FAA Controllers. Most have done 25 years in the job, where their earnings would have been higher than their UK counterparts, followed by retiring on full pension, which their UK counterpart will have had to have worked longer to achieve.

Less cost to you personally maybe, but less cost to the Federal government and therefore less cost to you, the taxpayer - definitely not! If you're going to make such rash statements, maybe you should look at the overall picture before mouthing off and making apples v pears comparisons (which you have a propensity to do with amazing regularity as has been pointed out before).

2 Sheds / Coolbeans - greetings from the Sandpit boys :)

[terrain safe]

Hangten. love the response exactly what I was thinking about! I guess we've found an American communist! The people at Fort Meade must be waiting for Soarings latest missive with baited breath! Somebody really needs to engage brain before touching a keyboard.

[PrimeATC]

are they still looking fot ATCO?

[firebird_uk]

The positions are still listed on the Shoreham Airport website under the link I originally posted - so I guess the answer's yes.