Shoreham looking for two ATCOs
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What is the "renumeration package?".
The last time they advertised (last year I think) a mate applied just to see what he was offered, a pitiful salary in the region of £36K - one of the lowest rates for ADI & APC in the UK - and very small relocation expenses.
An interesting place to work, but the Airport Owners can hardly be described as one the most stable, having seriously proposed to withdraw ATC altogether earlier this year and it's also one of the most expensive places in the UK to live.
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind wanting to go there unless the salary and relocation package is substantialy improved, even then, who knows what the owners have in mind for the place?
The last time they advertised (last year I think) a mate applied just to see what he was offered, a pitiful salary in the region of £36K - one of the lowest rates for ADI & APC in the UK - and very small relocation expenses.
An interesting place to work, but the Airport Owners can hardly be described as one the most stable, having seriously proposed to withdraw ATC altogether earlier this year and it's also one of the most expensive places in the UK to live.
I can't imagine anyone in their right mind wanting to go there unless the salary and relocation package is substantialy improved, even then, who knows what the owners have in mind for the place?
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soaringhigh wrote...
Are you suggesting UK ATC go on strike unreasonably? Are you confusing the legal requirements of SRATCOH with pig headedness? Did you actually engage any brain cells before you wrote the above statement?
Whatever good idea, I suggest employing some French controllers if they fancy the job. After all they never go on strike, unreasonably or otherwise
Maybe employ someone from abroad then - there are many who would be thankful for a job, willing to work hard, and not go on strike unreasonably.
Whatever good idea, I suggest employing some French controllers if they fancy the job. After all they never go on strike, unreasonably or otherwise
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36K is a lot of money by world standards and is certainly above the UK annual average.
all money for Tower/APP in that part of the country, unless you think ATCO's should be just making the national average?
Are you suggesting UK ATC go on strike unreasonably? Are you confusing the legal requirements of SRATCOH with pig headedness? Did you actually engage any brain cells before you wrote the above statement?
Scratcoh? thats that tea break thing we controllers use when we're being difficult isn't it
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<<No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.>>
Interesting, wonder where they work?
Interesting, wonder where they work?
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No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week.
Since when was Shoreham violating SRATCOH? Do you have any brain cells of your own?
And airspace users are getting VERY pissed off having to pay your pension as well as the salaries of other ATCO fatcats!
I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.
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Crikey soaring high doesnt seem to like the "Fatcos"
Who's talking about respect? £36000 is not the going rate for tower and approach procedural, I'm confused as to where the comparison with front line troops comes into it, other than being emotive, would you like to mention the nurses next?
Examples please, whilst I dust off my cv/get my benefit application ready.
I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.
No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.
would you like to mention the nurses next?
One aspect not yet mentioned, though...economic forces? A few suitable ATCOs on the market at the moment.
2 s
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No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.
However Soaringhigh650, with respect everything else you mention is nothing more than the ramblings of the ignorant.
Your profile doesn't exactly say much apart from 'flying' so please enlighten us as to just exactly what knowledge are you bringing to the argument?
No, but there are some who will not work for less than £40K and no more than 10 hours a week. It's either that or they'd rather sit at home and claim benefits.
And airspace users are getting VERY pissed off having to pay your pension as well as the salaries of other ATCO fatcats!
Every industry charges its customers money. Part of those charges go towards staff costs. Depending on the industry, it could be a higher percentage of the income that goes to staff pay. For example, ATC is a very labour intensive job, hence the larger proportion of costs go towards staffing.
Go down to ASDA and start complaining that you are unhappy paying so much for a tin of beans... after all if they didn't pay their staff, they could reduce the cost of the groceries
I have far more respect for front-line soldiers who go into war and only earn half that amount.
For the record though, and just to keep you straight, I too have respect for them, after all I was one of 'them' before I joined NATS, as were many of my colleagues... I suggest you talk about something you understand
So come mate, this is a free speech forum, but before you come on talking rubbish about things you know little about, tell us what your 'expertise' is, because the word 'flying' as an interest on your profile means nothing.
Many a pre-pubescent child is 'interested in flying'... having read some of your other posts, I personally think your are a hobby pilot, done most of your flying in the US where there are vast areas of clear airspace, who whinges about having to pay for a service, yet is (unlike some of the GA community) happy to see extensions of CAS as long as it isn't Class A, as it affords you some protection when you are bimbling around (but still don't want to pay for it)
Not far from the mark am I? As stated, this is a free speech forum, but please don't deride people when you know little about the subject (a fact easily gleaned when reading posts you have made on other threads)
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I admit I was using various hyperboles in my previous posts.
But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost. I cannot compare working conditions between Europe and the US however.
Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average - quite a number of other jobs in other places in the world are also labour intensive (such as farming tea) and they can earn salaries of less than $1 a day.
PS. And as a matter of fact I do happily pay for US ATC - through taxes!
But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost. I cannot compare working conditions between Europe and the US however.
Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average - quite a number of other jobs in other places in the world are also labour intensive (such as farming tea) and they can earn salaries of less than $1 a day.
PS. And as a matter of fact I do happily pay for US ATC - through taxes!
Last edited by soaringhigh650; 18th May 2011 at 22:48.
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Like it or not, I have little pity for anyone who earns more than the average - quite a number of other jobs in other places in the world are also labour intensive (such as farming tea) and they can earn salaries of less than $1 a day.
Also given the choice between tea farming and Shoreham I'd probably go for the Shoreham job. In all honestly I'm not really sure where your going with the comparisons.
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I think before we get bogged down by a flame war it is important to point of a little more bluntly how market forces work.
A business will charge the maximum amount it can get away with, to generate the biggest profit margin.
The maximum amount is (usually) dictated by the demand from the consumer, and their perception of the supply.
Consumers rightly or wrongly assume that there is quite a bit of tea to go around, and so expect to pay a reasonably low price. In order for a business to win that sale, they have to compete in their pricing, and thus the price decreases. For more information see "Competition" in the Oxford English Dictionary, or one of its poorly spelt equivalents across the pond.
Air Traffic Control is more expensive than tea. This is because the qualifications and level of skill required by the labourer in the ATC business are much greater. Thus, whilst there is a healthy supply of willing ATCOs, this is maintained by (arguably - and for another time) good pay and conditions.
If NATS announced that it was merging with PG Tips, and that all operational labourers (i.e. tea farmers and ATCOs) would be paid the same $8 per week or so... NATS would find itself somewhat short staffed.
In general the more highly trained someone is, the more the expect in return for their services. To gain a place at the NATS training college, you need to represent less than 3% of those people who applied. I am assuming here, but I think probably most people would be successful in applying for a tea farming job.
The competition is therefore lower, and the prize less valued.
I hope that has helped you out a little, in understanding why the ATC community has reacted to your statements.
Phil
A business will charge the maximum amount it can get away with, to generate the biggest profit margin.
The maximum amount is (usually) dictated by the demand from the consumer, and their perception of the supply.
Consumers rightly or wrongly assume that there is quite a bit of tea to go around, and so expect to pay a reasonably low price. In order for a business to win that sale, they have to compete in their pricing, and thus the price decreases. For more information see "Competition" in the Oxford English Dictionary, or one of its poorly spelt equivalents across the pond.
Air Traffic Control is more expensive than tea. This is because the qualifications and level of skill required by the labourer in the ATC business are much greater. Thus, whilst there is a healthy supply of willing ATCOs, this is maintained by (arguably - and for another time) good pay and conditions.
If NATS announced that it was merging with PG Tips, and that all operational labourers (i.e. tea farmers and ATCOs) would be paid the same $8 per week or so... NATS would find itself somewhat short staffed.
In general the more highly trained someone is, the more the expect in return for their services. To gain a place at the NATS training college, you need to represent less than 3% of those people who applied. I am assuming here, but I think probably most people would be successful in applying for a tea farming job.
The competition is therefore lower, and the prize less valued.
I hope that has helped you out a little, in understanding why the ATC community has reacted to your statements.
Phil
Coolbeans: presumably by 'similar ATCO posts in the area' you are referring to Gatwick (which cannot really be called 'similar') so yes, you are correct, but do you know the rate offered for Dunsfold which IS similar? Obviously not.
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Actually I was thinking of slightly further north and east, which is ADI/APP and handles a roughly comparable type of traffic.
I didnt think dunsfold had gone ATC yet, isn't it still A/G?
Edit due to database bork up
I didnt think dunsfold had gone ATC yet, isn't it still A/G?
Edit due to database bork up
Last edited by coolbeans; 19th May 2011 at 08:44.
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<<But the issue remains that European ATC is more expensive than American ATC. US ATC can definitely channel more traffic with less cost.>>
Presumably you referring to Air Navigation charges? Light aircraft pay not a single cent for many ATC services over here.
Europe is somewhat different from the USA. We have a dozen countries all crowded together and not a lot of space to play with. The USA has miles of space to play with, which will undoubtedly result in more traffic being moved. Unfortunately, mid-air collison statistics suggest that things are not quite so safe in the USA as they are over here. Surprisingly, perhaps, some US ailine pilots I have met preferred UK ATC to back home, maybe because things are quieter.
Last time I checked, US ATCOs were earning about twice what their their Brit counterparts got. Cost of living over there is dramatically less than over here (in the UK, gasoline is somewhere around $10 a gallon and food and housing is far more expensive).
Next time you want to compare jobs and salaries, try doing so with your heart surgeon......
Presumably you referring to Air Navigation charges? Light aircraft pay not a single cent for many ATC services over here.
Europe is somewhat different from the USA. We have a dozen countries all crowded together and not a lot of space to play with. The USA has miles of space to play with, which will undoubtedly result in more traffic being moved. Unfortunately, mid-air collison statistics suggest that things are not quite so safe in the USA as they are over here. Surprisingly, perhaps, some US ailine pilots I have met preferred UK ATC to back home, maybe because things are quieter.
Last time I checked, US ATCOs were earning about twice what their their Brit counterparts got. Cost of living over there is dramatically less than over here (in the UK, gasoline is somewhere around $10 a gallon and food and housing is far more expensive).
Next time you want to compare jobs and salaries, try doing so with your heart surgeon......