Delta A330 Stall/Buffet incident enroute to AMS

[Black Cloud]

I heard of a Delta A330 near stall incident en-route from Delhi to AMS on the night of 22nd April. Crew feared for their lives and the rumour is there were no associated warnings. Does anyone have further information?

[lomapaseo]

Isn't it common to for every flight to fly near stall?

It would be of interest only if the aircraft gave warnings and the crew did nothing.

[Black Cloud]

Stick to being a 'Mechanical Pathologist' and stop posting useless responses. This is a real and serious incident and needs to be investigated and understood given the A330s recent past.

[deSitter]

Is it real? Details?

edit: The only way Delta gets near Delhi is via code shares with Air France and KLM - one is an A340 and the other an MD-11.

[Skittles]

Stop posting useless responses?

So far all we've had from you is that something might have happened at some point during some flight that might have something to do with stalling.

[misd-agin]

Selected four days in a row in May for DEL - AMS.

from delta.com -

Delta Air Lines does not have any flights scheduled that match your request.

[MetoPower]

Crew feared for their lives and the rumour is there were no associated warnings.

Having myself a bit of knowledge about A330/340, these aircraft are fairly well protected from stall, unless in very degraded Flight Control Computers. (and their recent history?? which one?? AF?? Still speculations as far as I am concerned)
Then the crew feared for their lives...... Do they know their aircraft and what they are doing??
And then no such flight DEL-AMS

Not making any sense to me

[Hotel Tango]

Perhaps it was the BOM (Mumbai) - AMS flight.

[MelbPilot85]

Theoretically any Airbus FBW aircraft can't stall while in normal law. It's possible in alternate or direct law though not really easy to do unless something is fairly wrong....

[Flex33]

Just a moment,

While sat in your Airbus during the CRZ phase you find yourself in shear.
It's not always predicted or avoidable.
Rapidly, VLS & VMO indicate the same on the speedtape,
While the trend vector drops just as rapidly.
Alpha Floor will be doing its best, but it will probably require your assistance to resolve the issue!

Tech is great, but over reliance on it will end in tears.

[divinehover]

"Crew feared for their lives" What crap is this?

[zondaracer]

Where did you hear about this? Any source on this?

[bubbers44]

I really don't believe the Delta pilots were in fear of their lives. Where do people come up with this BS? I flew a full career with a major airline and was never in fear of my life. I know flying an Airbus makes you a computer controller but people that I know that fly it trust it and don't fear it. I chose not to fly it because of the computer issue but they seem happy with it. My Boeing just keeps on going no matter what breaks.

[Gretchenfrage]

Alpha Floor will be doing its best, but it will probably require your assistance to resolve the issue!

... and your assistance will be ignored about as much as it was on QF72 ...

I'm in with bubbers, I don't hate AB but I stopped trusting their jets and left.
Maybe it's pure coincidence, or it is only me, but lately the 330 is involved in too many incidents concerning flight control, at least to my gusto.

[EK_Bus Driver]

Alpha Floor is inhibited above Mach 0.53.

So it IS possible to get into trouble at high Alt + Turbulence.

[HeadingSouth]

can we pls first verify what happened and what provoked that rumour rather than starting another number of pages about the disadvantages of computer controlled flight ?

if something happened it sounds serious enough to have it discussed.
but pls discuss IT and not A vs B and not wired controls vs steel cable controls...

[bvcu]

Just remind me , hasnt it been a little while since we stopped building wide body airliners in the west that werent 'computer controlled' ? After all the possible scenario of pitot icing in the AF loss is not a lot different to the taped up static ports on the 757 in terms of automation . Even go back to 737-200 with EPR fault due probe icing causing a crash , if its not recognised at the time then yr in trouble .

[Gretchenfrage]

HeadingSouth

I love you guys, really! As soon as any criticism over a AB product arises, you dismiss it right away by branding it AB vs. B polemics. Get over your complex, please.

I didn't name the big B once, however just put down my distrust in the airframe that recently had a lot of problems with flight control. Apparently with landings as well now.
My distrust could be described as the Pinto syndrome. The more Pintos exploded, the less Ford claimed it had something to do with that specific model. In the end they had to pay millions in lawsuits and take the car out of production for reengineering.
To me no one, I will rephrase that, no one from AB has been heard adressing the A330 problems in a sincere and frank way. It is simlpy unacceptable that an aircraft does not respond to pilots inputs once the AP is disconnected, be it AB or B. Take this as my distrust in an aircraft that reportedly has had some problems with that, and we can discuss it further. But never again just discard a honest criticism with the AB vs. B bulls#!t as yours, please.

[HeadingSouth]

Gretchenfrage,

don't worry there's no complex about A vs B. I just read some posts ahead of mine that Boeings are always going, and that fly-by-wire Airbuses can be stalled.

And before this thread drifts into one of the common drifters I would just prefer to get the facts about the incident mentioned before filling the internet with more unnecessary stuff.

I can take a lot of criticism about A and B products. And E as well before anyone opens their mouth.

[llagonne66]

As it's a US registered A/C, I guess the usual BEA / Airbus / Air France conspiracy won't be able to hide the truth from the unsuspecting public !
So let's wait for the report of the incident (if it's as serious as mentioned at the start this thread) on the NTSB website before elaborating on hearsay and refight our usual A vs B contest.:}

[CargoMatatu]

Unless I'm missing something here, nobody has yet confirmed that there even WAS an incident! So before we start saying "let's wait for the findings", etc., let's confirm that there was something to find! :ugh:

[HeadingSouth]

To the best of my very limited knowledge: DEL to AMS is served by KLM using an MD-11 most of the time. Delta is only involved via Code Share, so there's no US registered aircraft involved. There are as well 10 A330's in KLM's fleet so we'd have to have more details about this flight.

Thread opener, any more news about this ??

[Avenger]

Black Cloud, where did you " hear " this?

[infrequentflyer789]

As it's a US registered A/C


Perhaps you could confirm the registration then, as no one else seems to know it (with various suggestions that it doesn't exist, is only a delta code share or even an MD-11) ?


before elaborating on hearsay and refight our usual A vs B contest.:}No contest anymore.

Last year I was reading that A were going to do transparent planes in 2050 (Airbus unveils plans for 'invisible' passenger planes | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1313631/Airbus-unveils-plans-invisible-passenger-planes.html)).

Now in early 2011, I hear that B are doing sunroofs already on selcted 737s. Miles ahead. :E

[llagonne66]

I surmised the registration from the start of the thread "... Delta A330 ..." :O but I may be wrong if it's a KLM MD11 !

[nelsonmadiba]

I´m an ATCO and worked on the sectors EAST of amsterdam for almost 7 years,I can guarantee you that DAL is flying from ams to somewhere in india (think it´s mumbai but it´s been one year since I´ve left that sector).

It used to be NWA and then switched to DAL...it is now a A330 indeed (flown in codeshare with KLM)but it happens to be fully DAL,with crew and acft from DAL...it used to be with a DC-10 (if I´m not mistaken) and then changed to A330....

no idea whether the incident happened or not but just wanted to tell you that indeed DAL is flying from EHAM to somewhere in india.

[G-BPED]

Well, the flight does seem to exist, all thats missing are the details of the alleged event.


Taken from KLM Website:

10:20 Amsterdam
23:00 Mumbai/Bombay

Delta Air Lines
KL6086

10:20 Amsterdam (Schiphol) - 23:00 Mumbai/Bombay (Chhatrapati Shivaji)
Aircraft type: Airbus A330-200

[Marty33]

If all the pitots were iced over and they forgot how to go to 85% and nose up then they might be scared. Otherwise, probably not.

[infrequentflyer789]

Well, the flight does seem to exist, all thats missing are the details of the alleged event.


Taken from KLM Website:

10:20 Amsterdam
23:00 Mumbai/Bombay


Thread starter says Delhi to AMS, not Mumbai - different flight.

[zerozero]

I think this story is a dead end.

Just like this thread.

:hmm:

[Hotel Tango]

Black Cloud never gave us the source of the information. In fact, he/she has gone very quiet. Obviously no one else in the industry has heard about this or I'm sure it would have surfaced by now.

[Black Cloud]

I spoke to the cabin crew in AMS. The cabin crew stayed at a different hotel to the TC. 4 Crew with the same story in my books means more than where there's smoke there's fire. This happened in my opinion. The CN was resting and was woken and all reports concur that the two FO's saved the day. Passengers even knew there was trouble. Time for someone to pull their fingers out and put together the rest of the story. Oh, bugger off you chaps with your mindless comments!!!

[infrequentflyer789]

Time for someone to pull their fingers out and put together the rest of the story. Oh, bugger off you chaps with your mindless comments!!!

How about a flight number and date, or a/c registration then ?

So far trying to "put together the rest of the story":


Delta DEL to AMS doesn't appear to exist except as code share (KL872)
KL872 is not scheduled with any type of Airbus

[BOAC]

Time for someone to pull their fingers out and put together the rest of the story. - indeed - how about you, with something more than 'Galley Fm'?

As ifl789 says, "flight number and date" would be a starter - perhaps the 'c/crew' know?

[WillDAQ]

This happened in my opinion

Love it! .

[Phantom Driver]

Certainly got the attention the guy was probably looking for!

[daikilo]

Does anyone have any hard evidence, pls, that anything happened on this supposed flight on DL (ex NW) between somewhere in India and AMS?

[Suzeman]

Lots of silliness on here

A little bit of simple research on the internet shows that DL57 is a daily flight which routes BOM -AMS then on to DTW (as DL251) and is usually operated by a DL A330-200

On the morning of 23rd April this flight arrived at AMS at 0710 local time and was operated by DL A330-200 N860NW

So maybe this was the flight in question?

Suzeman

[infrequentflyer789]

On the morning of 23rd April this flight arrived at AMS at 0710 local time and was operated by DL A330-200 N860NW

So maybe this was the flight in question?

Suzeman

How did DL57 wind up in (starting from ?) DEL then ? Long way to be blown off course by an incident ?

Or maybe the crew in the bar were so buffeted they couldn't remember where they were operating from ?

[Suzeman]

if789

If you read previous posts, there was a suggestion (Post 8) that the original poster (Black Cloud) had got it wrong and that it could have been a flight from Mumbai, not DEL. As has been pointed out by numerous posters, DL do not operate DEL but do from BOM, so it is quite possible that Black Cloud did speak to a DL A330 crew just in from India in a hotel in AMS.

Post 37 asks for hard evidence of an incident. Whilst I don't have any evidence of an incident, I have posted factual details about the DL A330 that arrived in AMS on the morning of 23rd from India which may help in digging around to see if anyone knows any more

Simple as that, nothing else

Nitey Night

Suzeman

[filejw]

FYI all DAL crew stay at the same hotel,and if you are listening to FA's well sorry you need way more info..:ugh:.

[kbrockman]

Let's see now, we have an alledged life threatening incident with an American company operated airbus A330 (how did that stay out of the press ???), that is currently still flying around ,on route from MSP to AMS as we speak.

now there are rumours and there are rumours but this is stretching it a bit far ,no?

[perigeemw]

Here is a posting from a Facebook FA friend who was on the flight:

Just in from my AMS-Bom trip...aday late with horrible mechanicalin BOM...terribly mishandled by groundstaff in BOM...AC left with inop IFE and inop BE seats...3hours in...with all systems in cockpit reporting normal...AC went in to pre-stall condtions.bagan shuttering and loosing speed...thanks to AWESOME FO's they saved the day...Pilots said 10seconds more or if they had not noticed,we would have gone into full stall and gone down...Had to switch to alternate systems and declare air emergencyover IRAN for about an hour..unit all was stabalized. Dispatch in ATL tried to send AC out that AM...although KLM mechanics were pulling computers and even the black box. Apparently in the "shift change" in ATL they failed to relay the degree of the situation...OOPs...10 seconds to stal lat 35000 feet and somebody forgot]to say it was important. KUDOS to my pilot sand FA crew and awsome CRM and fantastic respect between FA's and Flight Deck!!! Fantastic professional FA's who NEVER lost thier cool,maitained thier composure,reviewed thier safety procedures and were an ASSET in every way to our profession!!! I amSO proud to fly and workwith people like this.Deadheading home,the working crew had a medical & and because the working crew was busy,my crew got up and assisted !!! 7 days of mechanicals,delays,an almost death defying stall,andmy crew continued with the most SUPERIOR professional serviceandability! I wasproud tobe part ofthat group!!!

[PantLoad]

Please help me understand exactly what happened...to whom....where....what type aircraft....what phase of flight....etc.

Were they landing at McDill, again, when this occurred? Or, were they lost, again, over the Atlantic?

Were they really scared....or just a little scared? Or, were they too clueless to be scared, when they should have been? Question put succinctly: How scared were they? This is the critical question!!!!!

Is being scared part of the SOP for Delta Airlines?

(Hey, I'm just asking a simple question!)

"We're learning to fly, and it shows...."


Fly safe,

PantLoad

[pjd_012]

It appears that the 22 April flight from VABB - EHAM was cancelled. May add some credibility to the rumor.

FlightAware > Delta Air Lines (DL) #57 > 22/Apr/2011 > VABB-EHAM Flight Tracker (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL57/history/20110421/1915Z/VABB/EHAM)

22-Apr-2011 A332 Chatrapati Shivaji Int'l (VABB / BOM) Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM/AMS) 04:30AM IST 09:52AM CEST Cancelled

22-Apr-2011 A332 Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM/AMS) Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) 11:02AM CEST 01:47PM EDT Cancelled

[llagonne66]

So, as we are now "sure" the involved A/C is N-registered, the incident will undoubtly (crew feared for their lives and following flight cancelled put such an incident above the threshold for notification) be logged in the April list on the NTSB website :
List by Month (http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/AccList.aspx?month=4&year=2011)

April 22nd incidents are beginning to appear, so let's be patient for some more days !

[Globaliser]

It appears that the 22 April flight from VABB - EHAM was cancelled. May add some credibility to the rumor.

FlightAware > Delta Air Lines (DL) #57 > 22/Apr/2011 > VABB-EHAM Flight Tracker (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DAL57/history/20110421/1915Z/VABB/EHAM)

22-Apr-2011 A332 Chatrapati Shivaji Int'l (VABB / BOM) Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM/AMS) 04:30AM IST 09:52AM CEST Cancelled

22-Apr-2011 A332 Amsterdam Schiphol (EHAM/AMS) Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) 11:02AM CEST 01:47PM EDT CancelledMore likely to be the following day's flight, as the suggestion is that this happened on a DEL-AMS or BOM-AMS sector. But DL57/22APR had both sectors cancelled, and never departed BOM.

DL57/23APR, however, operated BOM-AMS and then had AMS-DTW cancelled.DL 57 Landed
BOM Scheduled: 20/04/11 0:45 Actual: 20/04/11 0:38
AMS Scheduled: 20/04/11 6:55 Actual: 20/04/11 6:15
DL 57 Landed
AMS Scheduled: 20/04/11 10:30 Actual: 20/04/11 10:29
DTW Scheduled: 20/04/11 13:15 Actual: 20/04/11 13:25

DL 57 Landed
BOM Scheduled: 21/04/11 0:45 Actual: 21/04/11 0:45
AMS Scheduled: 21/04/11 6:55 Actual: 21/04/11 6:50
DL 57 Landed
AMS Scheduled: 21/04/11 10:30 Actual: 21/04/11 10:28
DTW Scheduled: 21/04/11 13:15 Actual: 21/04/11 12:42

DL 57 Canceled
BOM Scheduled: 22/04/11 0:45 Actual:
AMS Scheduled: 22/04/11 6:55 Actual:
DL 57 Canceled
AMS Scheduled: 22/04/11 10:30 Actual:
DTW Scheduled: 22/04/11 13:15 Actual:

DL 57 Landed
BOM Scheduled: 23/04/11 0:45 Actual: 23/04/11 1:38
AMS Scheduled: 23/04/11 6:55 Actual: 23/04/11 7:16
DL 57 Canceled
AMS Scheduled: 23/04/11 10:30 Actual:
DTW Scheduled: 23/04/11 13:15 Actual:

DL 57 Landed
BOM Scheduled: 24/04/11 0:45 Actual: 24/04/11 0:53
AMS Scheduled: 24/04/11 6:55 Actual: 24/04/11 6:39
DL 57 Landed
AMS Scheduled: 24/04/11 10:30 Actual: 24/04/11 10:17
DTW Scheduled: 24/04/11 13:15 Actual: 24/04/11 13:09

[Black Cloud]

Despite the time wasters out there (you know who you are) I am glad that PPRune did what it does best, gets the rumours (in this case the hard facts) out there so that we can all learn from such incidents and hopefully get Air Bus and/or our checklists in order so as to cater for such events and not have another Air France! We need much more information on this event particularly the Human Factors and technical details of the faults if any. Standing by, over.

[BOAC]

Despite the time wasters out there (you know who you are - yes, we certainly do. Enjoy your 'stand by'. So far PPRune at it's best!! has proved that there apparently was no Delhi-AMS Delta flight, so what now, brown cow?

Not sure why this cluttering up R&N?

[sb_sfo]

Here is a posting from a FacePPRuNe FA friend who was on the flight:

Seems to me that if DL employees are posting this on any sort of public fora, they:

1) Aren't too smart, and

2) Ought to be worried about being hunted down and fired by HR.

411A would have had a field day with this one!

[Abbey Road]

Fantastic professional FA's who NEVER lost thier cool,maitained thier composure,reviewed thier safety procedures and were an ASSET in every way to our profession!!!I'm still not sure how it is that cabin crew ("FA's") could have had any influence on whether the aircraft stalled or not? :confused:

[MagnusP]

By running to the forward galley, thereby altering the trim and making recovery easier?

Well, it makes as much sense as half the posts on this thread.

[Hedge36]

This entire thread reads like a series of Facebook wall posts.

[ehwatezedoing]

I'm still not sure how it is that cabin crew ("FA's") could have had any influence on whether the aircraft stalled or not? :confused:

Actually, believe it or not it happened one time.
Quebecair Flight 255 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebecair_Flight_255)
The flight data recorders were recovered soon after the crash. Canadian investigators concluded that shortly after the twin-turboprop airliner lifted off the low pressure impeller from the no. 2 engine burst, causing the forward part of the no. 2 engine to separate. The flight crew were unable to raise the landing gear because debris from the engine damaged the electronic gear selection circuitry. Along with the exposed engine increased drag dramatically on the aeroplane, and the aircraft was unable to climb or maintain altitude during the final turn. The centre of gravity shifted beyond its aft limit due to the engine separation and passenger movement, causing the airspeed to drop below the minimum control speed shortly before the aircraft struck the hillside.

To put it simply, the stewardess (1979 after all) heard that they were a better survival at the rear of an aircraft so she shifted all the passenger to...the rear!



Now, back to this entertaining topic :}

[golfyankeesierra]

Isn't there any requirement for Delta FAs to be able to write a little bit of English without too many spelling mistakes?

[Gretchenfrage]

She might have been, some time ago.
But she's over 80 now, so give her some slack.

[Tarq57]

To put it simply, the stewardess (1979 after all) heard that they were a better survival at the rear of an aircraft so she shifted all the passenger to...the rear!


I bet she was a stunner.

[arem]

Was she a blonde?;);)

[GarageYears]

So the NTSB is now listing up to April 24th, with no mention of anything Delta related on the 22nd... granted they might add something, but this is continuing to look like one of those "internet hoaxes" that are eventually debunked on Snopes.

:ugh:

[misd-agin]

Since when does getting slow in cruise become a NTSB report?

Top notch FO's saved the day with 10 seconds to go.....how many seconds did it take to slow the '10 secs to go' mark?

[oxenos]

Surely someone should have posted a METAR by now.

[zerozero]

I can't believe this thread is still alive after all attempts failed to find a heart and soul.

It's like a ZOMBIE THREAD.

It keeps coming at you no matter how many holes you shoot through it.

:ooh:

[bubbers44]

I don't think one FA who couldn't spell could have caused this. Maybe?

[seat 0A]

What a nonsense thread!
I always fly "10 seconds to stall":ugh:
It`s probably because of the "fantastic FA`s" that I survived this long..:E

[Ex Cargo Clown]

Surely someone should have posted a METAR by now.

YMML 301300Z 36011KT CAVOK 15/09 Q1019 NOSIG

YMML 301018Z 3012/0118 35008KT 9999 -SHRA FEW045 BKN110
BECMG 0106/0108 21010KT 9999 -SHRA SCT010 BKN020
FM011200 19008KT 9999 -RA BKN010 INTER 0102/0105 4000 SHRA BKN010
TEMPO 0105/0118 3000 -RA BKN006

And you get a TAF for free :sad:

[SLFguy]

lmao - why bother???