Fakers, fakers everywhere!

[potteroomore]

The recent revelations of fakers in India, Turkey and the Far East has led to bar room allegations, misinformation, lies and downright disinformation.

A few acquaintances had asked me about their suspicions of certain individuals who I had the misfortune of association by nationality and being colleagues with. I cannot lie outright and I do not wish to damage the livelihood of such individuals. All I can say is that the dispute of 1989 down under did indeed lead to certain persons venturing to some obscure corners of the world and obtaining command positions by dubious means. Of course they were hardpressed by the pressing demands of bread and butter issues; but there was no excuse to use dubious methods to obtain command postions. The aviation world then did have ample opportunities for them to move up the food chain HONORABLY but some chose the dirty way out. These individuals know who they are and eventually some chickens will come home to roost.

The lessons for young wannabes now is that there are ample, ample opportunities to do thing the bona fide way and do so proudly, honorably with a sense of achievement which no one can take away from you. The fakers will forever have a cloud over their head and conscience. :=

[Stikybeke]

Well said mate. Well said.

Stiky
:ok:

[Sunny Boyle]

Potteroo........you are wise but too generous to a fault.

Fakers, fakers....the scourge which never seem to go away. Just the other day, someone asked; what if a faker is involved in a prang with fatalities. The insurance companies are going to dig and dig deep into the background of the commander and his crew. What if the faker is found out and the insurance company refuses to pay? What if you are unfortunate enough to be part of that crew complement and your family cannot get the insurance after your sad demise?

[inderaputra]

Ahhh.....after the 1989 ozzie pilot debacle some made their transit through South East Asia before moving to " greater " things! On the short sojourn in our land, our DCA was quite thorough in the assessment of their qualifications and a number were only qualified as copilots. Quite a number left for some " obscure " corners of the world and lo and behold, in a short period of a few years many of these boy wonders became captains on wide bodies in Korea, Kuwait, etc. Wow, talk of a magical ride on Alladin's magic carpet. Good on you fellas. But I surely don't want my family to travel on your flights; so please can anybody advise if the insurance issue pointed out earlier will be a problem?

[xrba]

How many, faced with a company hours requirement, have sharp pencilled their logbooks? I know of one who was discovered, and demoted back to F/O when he was found out, lucky not to have been sacked, and another who aroused many suspicions but got away with it, both in a smallish carrier. I’m sure it is prevalent throughout the world.

[DownIn3Green]

xrba said it all...but then, who is going to turn in the captain for his/her inabilities??? it's the system what allows this...not the pilot getting away with it...

[SpaceNeedle]

Fakers, the bane of the aviation brotherhood! Several of our Canucks were denied their rightful place on the B744 in KAL because of despicable fakers from Sud Aprika!:uhoh::uhoh:

[Saltie]

A certain Central American country seemed tro be the source of some "wonderous" command hours for a few "truly blessed" Antipodeans around the time the Berlin Wall tumbled. One or two of them went on to "wonderously" accellerated careers on the strength of those magical command hours.

[Checkboard]

... and of course everyone posting here meets their own legal requirement to keep their logbook up to date after each flight ... :rolleyes:

A half-decent logbook audit by the hiring company would fix this.

[jojojett]

Space Needle.. (Somewhat Freudian..?) Where, in your evidently over developed sense of entitlement, do you arrive at the conclusion that ANY job at a foreign carrier (KAL), "rightfully", should go to "Canucks"?

Perhaps you should refer to a thread contained in "Fragrant Harbour" regarding said Canucks working illegally in the US and taking jobs which, in that case, are "RIGHTFULLY" jobs for yanks. Makes one think..

Got a bit of a chip on the old shoulder eh,?:=

[squares]

The ramifications can be dire or laughable depending on your airline/seniority/record, etc. Senior Captain from back home got no more than a slap on the wrist when it cropped up that he'd doctored his log 20+ years ago in his pre-airline days. He's a good bloke, had a great record and was due to retire in the next few years so they let it slide but the fact of the matter is that his career progression wouldn't have happened at the pace it did had he been honest.


For the rest of us...keep your nose clean and don't be cheeky, it all catches up.

[old,not bold]

I know of one who was discovered, and demoted back to F/O

I find that quite incredible. He/she should have been handed over to the police, prosecuted and jailed, if the State in question had any kind of police/justice system capable of doing that.

If the company didn't have the balls for that, he/she should have been sacked without notice or pay for gross misconduct.

I bet they didn't even inform their NAA. Scared of opening a can of worms, maybe?

No wonder fakers proliferate.

[jet_737ng]

Maybe regulatory bodies need to make all data available online for greater transparency . Also time for paper log books to disappear....

[Shell Management]

onb

Yes, a custodial sentance is clearly appropraite for such an outrageously hazardous fraud.:*

[xrba]

onb et al, a correction.

On second thoughts, I can’t remember the full details as the incident was decades ago, but probably the miscreant falsified the company forms only, making legal action unlikely to be appropriate. The advantage gained would be the same, however.

In the RAF my logbooks were checked and signed monthly, and inspected by the CAA for initial licence issue. Thereafter in civil aviation, they never received more than a cursory glance by any company, so the opportunities for fraud are abundant.

[Dan Winterland]

But even RAF hours are easy to 'pad'. One pilot in my last airline was in the race for a command and got it ahead of some of his peers who were also ex-RAF. thye smelled a rat and pinted out that as a FJ pilot in the RAF, it was fairly unlikey he had been flying 600 hours a year. Further scrutiny and some minimal checking showed the fraud and he was sacked.

And even worse, Air 2bob (I think) had a an ex RAF pilot who got his command and had his logbbok insopected by a manager who couldn't remeber the guy, even though he claimed to be on the same Sqn at the same time. It turns out he was really an air trafficker and his whole RAF flying career was an invention! He was prosecuted for fraud and sacked, but is now back flying.

And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.

These fraudsterss are dishonest to their colleagues, a liability to thier passengers and employers and technically criminals. I've heard of people bragging about P51 (Parker 51!) hours, the people passing on the story who didn't do anything about it were equally as guilty. The only policy acceptable is reporting these dangers to themselves and theer passengers to the authorities.


And if you think this is a bit extreme, those of you who have read Ernest Gann's autoboigraphy ''Fate is the Hunter'' will recall his remorse in not doing something about a pilot who was obviously a fraud who subsequently went on to kill himself and all his passengers.

[MTOW]

From the Middle East page.

"Yea Sire, whenever possible, a wise Master Cameleer will entrusteth his autocamels only to the hands of cameleers whose skills he knoweth well. What better way to learneth the true worth of any aspiring cameleer than first to observeth him as an effoh calling warnings of oncoming potholes and falling rocks? For it is written that many cameleers who willst seeketh to joineth Thy caravan will cometh not from the caravan routes, but from the tribe of Parker bin Pehn."

"This tribe of Parker bin Pehn. We knowest it not."

"Ah, Sire, the Parker bin Pehn beith a secretive sect and one which plyeth its trade behind tightly closed tent flaps with but a single quill. Many an unwary Master of Cameleers hast fallen foul of this widely scattered tribe. They willst enter Thy house glibly, bearing stirring testimonials from masters who in fact knewest them not. These richly bound scrolls willst speak of wondrous deeds on caravans they have travelled - but, alas! they willst have travelled these routes but only in their dreams."

"Then surely We must avoideth such vile creatures."

"Verily, 'tis so, Sire."

( http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/335400-caravan-me-forum-classic-1st-scroll-cafe.html )

[helldog]

These guys make me so angry. I had well over 3000 hours when I got my first ATPL, why? Because I needed my 100 night hours, I would delay departure on empty legs to clock up .5 or .7 night to reach my goal. Hey at least I know every hour in my logbook is genuine.

[old,not bold]

but probably the miscreant falsified the company forms only, making legal action unlikely to be appropriate.

On a point of order, in such circumstances legal action is not only wholly appropriate but the duty of any airline management with a proper sense of responsibility.

By "legal action" I mean, and I think you do too, reporting the crime to the proper authorities (Police and/or NAA) for investigation and prosecution, suspension of the pilot pending the hearing and summary dismissal if found guilty.

It makes no difference if he falsified a "company form". It's the falsification that is the crime, when done to secure a post as a pilot operating Public Transport aircraft. It is not just a civil matter between the pilot and the company.

[xrba]

Many things may well be the duty of any responsible airline management, but in the real world how many of them would wish to wash their company’s dirty linen in public, as well as voluntarily giving themselves more hassle/expense etc to little advantage? The easier, quieter option is often taken over many issues I would surmise.

So many differing frauds are being mentioned in this thread, most of which I had not come across before in my innocence, that it’s true, fakers ARE everywhere.

What a regrettable situation, which obviously has existed for years, but what is the solution and will anything concrete be done about it? I’m not holding my breath.

[A37575]

Many years ago a New Zealand CPL turned up at a South Pacific island claiming lots of hours check and training in BN Islanders as well as extensive hours on Chieftains. The chief pilot soon discovered this pilot could not even start an Islander without resorting to a written checklist to tell him what to do next. Investigation of his log book certainly revealed extensive Chieftain time all written in immaculate style with the same pen for weeks at a time with most days flying being between 4-7 hours a day. But comparing the distances between the various destinations, it soon became obvious that the ground speed must have averaged 300 knots for each leg.. in a Chieftain.

[Shell Management]

The chief pilot soon discovered this pilot could not even start an Islander without resorting to a written checklist to tell him what to do next.


I hope I know what you mean. ;)
I hope you don't mean that checklists aren't necessary:=

[A37575]

I hope you don't mean that checklists aren't necessary
There is a place for checklists providing they are concise and not so full of superfluous items that pilots skip reading them.

In the case mentioned it was clear the Islander pilot who claimed check and training time on type was so reliant on the checklist as a crutch to lean on that without it he had no idea how to fly the aeroplane.

The basic scan left to right for before start and after start checks in ab-initio aircraft such as Cessna and Piper singles, is essential knowledge before first solo. For example, I was once given a student who already had 10 hours dual on a Cessna 150 and had yet to go solo. After we had settled in our seats, I asked him to go ahead and start the engine.

He apologised and said he had left his checklist in his car. I said that's OK - you don't need a written checklist to fly a Cessna- just use scan flow. The poor student admitted he hadn't a clue how to get the engine going because his instructor had always used a checklist even for a pre-flight inspection.

To him the written checklist was a crutch. After he was shown a left to right scan we got airborne but not without a delay because he did not know the pre-take off checks unless he had a written checklist.

After landing, he taxied in and was embarrased to admit he did not know how to shut down the engine without a checklist. I felt sorry for him because he had really been left in the lurch by his previous junior instructors who themselves had barely 400 hours each. The blind leading the blind.

With airline aircraft, the required checks are made by scan and although numerous switches and gauges are checked during the scan, often the written checklist contains only essential items as a confirmation.

With light aircraft, it is important from the airmanship and pilot confidence point of view, that students and private pilots are competent to operate the aircraft without falling back on the crutch of written checklists. If a regulator demands checklist use then it should be only for the vital actions before take off. The operative words are vital actions.

These amount to perhaps six items sometimes known as "killer items". These items are specific to the aircraft type. In that case, the pilot should first complete the items in a scan method. Then if required, refer to a written checklist to confirm those items have been completed. Rambling lengthy written checklists are counter-productive. Items get skipped because instinctively the pilot knows they are superfluous.

[homesick rae]

Whilst on the subject of fakers, I was rather unfortunate to do some consulting work for a now defunct Aerospace/ Aviation recruitment company. I was paid and had several overseas trips and had a reasonably enjoyable time for a few months. I know you have to start somewhere but I was appalled that the owner of the company was masquerading as, not just, a recruitment professional but also an aviation and aerospace professional! He got away with it and milked money from several unsuspecting organisations which he then used to fund the next round of business trips. He also acted as an interim HR Manager for one of the exec operations in the UAE. He could certainly write the book, "How to Blag Your Way In Aerospace/ Aviation Recruitment!" Needless to say the "company" (it was only him really and few ad-hoc staff) went bust last year and he was soon in the role of MD for one of the many aerospace consortiums. I have recently found out that he is now Head of Ops at a reputable staffing organisation and it just makes me wonder - how the heck do these people get away with it for so long??? No naming and shaming but beware of the silver surfer who knows more about fruit than he does our industry;)

[PURPLE PITOT]

A37575, dont you go brining you old school attitudes to JAR land. How is a 200 hr wonderkid supposed to fly a boeing without a checklist or QRH to blindly follow when it goes tits:ok:

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

I think there may be a degree of misunderstanding here. Different types of operation have different emphases - we should not deride one or the other. In order to go through the secondary school of scan flows on a Cessna, it is vital to go through the primary school of aircraft checklist discipline. For any of you that have flown in a military fast jet or similar, you will know a considerable emphasis is put on checklist knowledge and memorisation. The civil airline world, for very good reasons, has chosen not to do that and rigid checklist adherence is considered a virtue. It is not necessarily helpful to get into a discussion as to who is right and who is wrong - it is, however, vital to embrace the practices that prevail in whatever field of aviation you are in. I am now a civil pilot and have fully taken aboard the requirement for use of checklists - any deviation from that would rightly be regarded as an unwarranted departure from SOPs and would inevitably unnerve my flight deck colleagues. There is an important discipline in being able to use the QRHs, checklists etc on a commercial jet airliner - it is a skill that must be embraced if you are to be considered a professional in that world. That does not mean that scan flows/memorisation etc do not have their place - it does mean that is simply not how the commercial world works.

[PURPLE PITOT]

Sarcasm, despite being the lowest form of wit, is also a double edged sword;)

[Biggles78]

Pre solo, I wrote down all the checklists that were used in the circuit and rejoining. From memory they came to about 112. Never once used a written checklist in the aircraft but did learn them by rote at home and possibly even sitting in the cabin on the ground when learning where all the switches and gauges were.

Watch a Youtube video in horror where the pilot was taking a friend on a jolly and he was using a written checklist to start a PA28.
Brakes On
Fuel fullest Tank
Mixture Rich
Throttle Set
Carb Heat Cold
Friction Lock Set
Master Switch On
Fuel Pump On
Check Pressure
Check ALL CLEAR
Crank

Where is the need for a written list here? (obviously there are pre and post start checks as well)

What happens when they experience and EFATO or a FLWOP? Whip out the checklist????

I was I trained in a golden era where low time C Cats (17 hours training to get a Destructor Rating) knew their stuff or am I just a cynical old fart? (Actually, I am not that old)

[MTOW]

The thread is drifting... to a major degree.

[A37575]

The thread is drifting... to a major degree. Ye Gods - you are right. But stories about fakers are so depressing so bear with one more story..:ok:


In another life I was a RAAF instructor on Tiger Moths, Wirraways and then the new trainer the Winjeel (similar in looks to the Provost).

There was some concern that students going directly to Winjeels as their first elementary type would have trouble coping as it was a different beast to ye olde Tiger Moth the current trainer.

To our surprise students still went solo after 8-10 hours of dual instruction -same as the Tiger Moth. Yet clearly the Winjeel was more complex in systems.
The RAAF CFS taught a standard pre-take off check which applied to all types from Dakota to Mustang-obviously with minor variations here and there.
Fast forward to present day in most Australian flying schools where the average time to first solo seems to be around 15-25 hours. But that's another story.

Again in Australia the Winjeels are called "War Birds" although I don't remember the Winjeel ever going to war. I saw one a few months ago and asked the owner if I could sit in the cockpit. It was quite familiar. Except for a vast roller-blind paper checklist stuck on the coaming. Fascinated, I scrolled through no less than 137 items of which the first item was "Gooday" Ah! - so Aussie in character. There were over 100 scrolled items to wind through before airborne. Unbelievable. The last item on the checklist was "Don't forget to lock the canopy".

[Tipsy Barossa]

memories, memories and old wounds Potteroo for bringing up 1989. True we have a few dishonourable first officer chaps who ventured into the grey holes of Africa and Middle East only to surface in Korean as widebody skippers; and instructing the Koreans to boot! Miracles of miracles.

[doubleu-anker]

I think you will find in most walks of life people have "b:mad:d their way to high office". Whether you think being a pilot is high office is a matter of opinion I guess.

A37575.

Yes things have changed. My lowest time to send a student solo was 5 hours dual. Yes looking back, risky, but if they are ready, cut them loose I say/said.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Returning to the story, there is a real issue here that needs to be addressed. A very interesting story is being run by CNN.

Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2011/04/18/sidner.india.aviation.scandal.cnn?hpt=C2)

I was very disappointed with the line taken - 'it's only corruption and there is no danger to passengers'. It seems self-evident to me that if you were not able to obtain a flying licence by normal means and have not done the necessary tests then there is a clear danger to passengers. Have a look and decide for yourselves.

[foxcharliep2]

Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes ..... " :ugh:

[stuckgear]

Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes .....


And also the interviewed flight instructor, "The public shouldn't worry as pilots are subjected to competency tests" ! :ugh:

[sdelarminat]

Hey guys...I'm glad this matter is being noticed broadly.
Here in Argentina the most famous pen brand is called BIC, and thaere are a LOT of pilots that flew the "LV-BIC" lol (as a side note, there exists a BE90 with reg LV-BIC, but the joke still goes on).

I lol'd but there's nothing funny in this. I have several friends that worked their arses out to reach for the minimums (1000hrs) required for the major airlines, and then when there's finally a general recruitment coming up, lots of self-proclaimed pilots that legally flew something around 200hrs came up with logbooks full of dirt and where taken.

I know examples of pilots that received their PPL and instantly started to instruct pilot-wannabes. As in every ICAO country, this is not legally possible.
BTW, they're flying for AR now.

[blind pew]

Had a Brit in a major european company who was a clerk - he got caught out at a party masquerading as a FO.
I shared a flat with him and he would come out with some bull**** of being a copilot to Prince Andrew in the Falklands war.
He went on to found a recruitment company.

But then again my first major airline had training captains who flew 99.9% of the time with the autopilot on - when they disconnected it I very quickly realized that they had a struggle to fly.
Still passed their checks.
30 years later I was forwarded a list of members of a certain society and there was a comprehensive list of many of the i***ts in management and training and of course a couple of aviation authority names!!!!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

What was very apparent in the CNN video was that a senior police officer, charged with investigating corruption in aviation, could not bring himself to call the paying of money for a flying licence as a 'bribe'. It is a critical omission, because until you can see such practices as morally wrong and as criminal acts you are nowhere. You then have Captain Blah, who is allegedly in charge of a flying school that produces these pilots, openly declaring this is not a big deal as no one is really endangered by people paying for licences rather than passing the necessary ground and flight tests. The inevitable conclusion is that these two gentlemen are, to a greater or lesser extent, complicit in what has been going on. They somehow think that because these pilots go on to pass an airline LPC/OPC (again under unknown financial arrangements), this somehow means no danger exists. For a westerner like myself, this is simply incomprehensible, yet that mindset seems to pervade Indian and possibly Chinese aviation. The sin appears to be getting caught rather than the committing of the offence.

[FoolsGold]

In a country where an examinee in a university graduate program merely writes his cell phone number on his exam paper so the grader can call him to arrange the bribe payment for a passing score, what do you really expect?

Bribery and corruption are firmly entrenched. It is a way of life. I would expect the initial arrests were motivated by some dispute over sharing bribe money or whose relatives would get a particular position. Its simply too much of a universal practice throughout all levels of society there for anyone to have upset the apple-cart for what we would term a proper motive.

[FoolsGold]

Concerning this Indian police officer who was hesitant to call paying money for a pilot's license a bribe, Indian laws and Indian culture are at play here. If you pay money directly to the person who issues a license it is a bribe, if it is paid to a third party such as a cousin, brother or sister then it is not termed a bribe. That distinction, which is absurd to us, is critical in their culture and virtually their entire economy.

In the example of an engineering student writing only his name and cell phone number on an exam paper, the money would not be paid directly to the exam-grader but instead to a relative of the exam-grader. Then the exam-grader fills out a perfect score paper. Paying the exam-grader directly would be considered a bribe.

[PT6A]

I think bannana republic sums it up:ugh:

[Dan Winterland]

Just saw the video on CNN - warped logic in that police chief's answer too : " He was just taking money, not bribes .....

And also the interviewed flight instructor, "The public shouldn't worry as pilots are subjected to competency tests" !

So, I take it these people who accept the practice of bribing officials to become licensed don't actually fly in passenger jets. Or are they actually stupid enough not to be concerned that they may end up trustng their lives to someone who isn't qualified?

Beggars belief - I will never fly on a Indian registered aircraft.

[stepwilk]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/24/world/asia/24india.html?ref=todayspaper

[Archie Archerfield]

memories, memories and old wounds Potteroo for bringing up 1989. True we have a few dishonourable first officer chaps who ventured into the grey holes of Africa and Middle East only to surface in Korean as widebody skippers; and instructing the Koreans to boot! Miracles of miracles

2 blokes come to my mind. One went to be be an SQ f/o, then to KWI then to KAL miraculously as A300-600 captain, later fired after being upgraded to the 777s now with VA. The other ansett f/o went incognito/incommunicado for a few years and turned up together with the earlier chap to be B747 classic skipper in KAL, now upgraded to the B744. Go figure.

[Farfield monitor]

It seems Fakers/Bl:mad:s are in all areas of Aviation I've met a few in my time, one held a highly paid post and was responsible for overseeing the maintenance of critical airfield equipment, he once asked a friend where are the PAPI's were located.

He had all the trappings of one who had paid for his degrees in engineering and enjoyed letting everyone know about it by placing them after his name various forms of communication.

Thankfully I doubt very much he will read this because he decided avaiation was no longer for him and left after a short spell when things got a little to hot for him :D

[mgTF]

Quote: Dan from stupid land

And close scrutiny of logbooks isn't the answer either. In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.


I'm curious to know where u got this info, logbook in Italy had to be signed something like 20yr ago, now it's like in any others EASA country!!
And I don't know what's your personal story, but I believe the rate of fakers in Italy is the same as in any other country, except yours indeed, so please stay in your airline, fly 200hrs a month and don't piss people with stupid generic racist answer!!

[lebowsky]

Hey mate,

guess you are from UK.
I am Italian and i really think you don't know anything about Italian aviation environment...
We may have lots of problems but we do not have anything regarding fake hours and so on like the other countries mentioned in the thread.
Come to any flight school in Italy and you will see how Italian pilots are trained, both technically and ethically...
If you have any proof of what you say please post it here with names and facts otherwise please shut up and think twice before throwing mud over a whole world of professionals.

[main_dog]

In Italy, every flight has to be counterstamped by an official, but flase hours are endemic there. My company won't lokk at anyone with an Italian licence (amongst other countries) due to the level of hours fraud there.


Er, Dan, don't you work for CX? :confused:

[taita]

Dear Mister, I have been in Italian Air Force for 18 years before joining Civil Aviation on a ATR with one strip on my uniform, I 've been through all carrier steps up to Captain and the only faked pilot\captain I met in Italy were one Swedish that was cought in Turkey last year, one Belgian , one Austrian, and one Britt that upgrade Himself as Captain coming from dubai and joining an Italian airlines as Captain. Unfortunately for him he got f...ked immediately by a papers crosscheck.
So dear Sir, please shut up and if you don't know what to do in hk ,try with flightsimulator games.

[bufe01]

My dear D.W. ,
I regret to say your company, ore one located where you say you are, has actually looked thoroughlly and quite liked several italian logbooks!
To be completely honest and to your credit they probably just liked the contents because the books themselves, especially the military ones, are quite crappy.
Bad quality (unheard of italian accessories!) and not really well preserved.
I can tell you they loved mine but gave me a well deserved bollocking for his state !
Anyway, in the military you don't even touch or have possession of your logbook and even when you leave to the airlines you only get a legal copy and not the original, in the old civvy system where every flight had to be checked aginst an ATC flights log stamped...self explanatory, don't now about nowadays.
I am not saying it's not hppening but so far the only one that got caught wasn't even italian!
You must be one of those always asking about Berlusconi 1.5 hours into the flight, accept my apologies if I have been rude to you on the subject, can't really reply properly there!
Ciao

[ssmann]

Hey guys,there is no dearth of people getting fake credentials the world over.Few years back a pilot with JAA credentials from Germany who had worked as a first officer there joined an airline in India as TRE A320/330/340.How he got the qualifications was a mystery but when he was finally caught after releasing people on line in the capacity of an examiner he was sacked.To think he would have learnt a lesson but alas he pushed his luck and joined in Sri Lanka where rumour was that he was caught and imprisoned.Now even in countries where there are checks and double checks for fakers there are cases and unfortunately there are no fool proof methods to curtail this.

[Dan Winterland]

If people actually took time to read and understand what I have been saying and control their emotions, they may realise that I wasn't slagging off Italians but using the Italian license to demonstrate that a few who defraud the system can ruin it for the majority of honest people. I'm sure there are other nations who have the same problem - I can relate directly to Italy due to my knowlegde of one case. I used the example of my brother in law who was in fear of his job during one of Alitalia's troubled times and was looking for another job, just in case. He asked me to submit his CV as he was type rated on our aircraft. For some reason, my company won't look at the holders of Italian licences - he himself admitted it may be due to the problems with hours fraud. It may not be going on now, but it had been in the past - and as a result, he was excluded. The issue may well be over - but the reputation has stuck.

I know other airlines employ Italians - I know one of the Italians in CX. My company employed one Italian who held another nations licence (he's left now) - the problem wasn't with Italians but Italian issued licences. My company also didn't employ Americans until recently. When it advertises jobs, it gets thousands of applicants. It has the right to chose who it wants and in the initial sifting of CVs, it discards based on preferences, policy, politics and prejudices - just as any airline does.

The problem here is that someone thinks that Italian licences have been devalued by the fraudsters. Other countries qualifications have as well - I wouldn't want to be an Indian licence holder looking for work as an expat right now. The UK has had examples of pilot frauds and China has recently uncovered many falsified logbooks after it was discoverd that a Captain involved in a recent fatal crash had padded his hours. Policing is not just down to the authorities - it's everyone's responsibility. If you know of someone who is defrauding the sytem, you not only owe it to yourself to expose them, you also owe it to their passengers.

[MTOW]

Back to the creative Antipodeans, I recall one who turned up in Malaysia in 1990 and they found his log book post 1989 so transparently creative that they told him "thanks but no thanks". He moved a bit further west and approached a rapidly growing airline and found they were not so picky.

[main_dog]

I take it you're not CX then? No shortage of Italians here :ok:

Anyway, we're agreed that fakers (whom, I believe, we have no more of in Italy than in any other European country) are bad for all airline pilots, a blight on our profession.

[TopTup]

It is not that there are people out there with fraudulent credentials and embellished flying experience, it is the system that does not prevent it.

Rules and regulations are only as strong as the backbone that enforces them. Have a weak CP or weak training system / culture / recruitment team at your airline and then foxes will go hunting.

Take India for example. Those of us with experience in that cesspit of utter corruption and [criminally] negligent safety and training departments can attest to fake hours and fake credentials as more of a norm than an non-norm.

Where does it start and end? OK, say a pilot does have a well earned ATP/ATPL. The airline structure and culture I witnessed at Air India was where pilots' line check and sim check forms were completed prior to departure or entry into the sim. Patterns, approaches and non-normals were ticked off as complete by the TRE/I that were never completed. So, does this pilot therefore really posses a correct, true and valid license to operate? This is the tip of the iceberg at that hell-hole acting as a disgraceful excuse of an airline.

I was abused by the heads of the safety and training dept for failing a 777 Capt in the sim for his inability to simply fly a raw data circuit with 15 kt x-wind:- as the sim profile dictated was the sortie. That was the straw that broke the camel's back. I resigned. That said AI Capt was checked to line on a BOM-DXB-BOM flight 2 days later by his "batch-mate". Is this kind of culture not promoting "fake" credentials and min standards as much as those doing so from an initial issue level?

In truth there are some very, very professional local and expat pilots there. They are in the vast minority (my opinion) where by and large their efforts to correct the mess, speak up against the corrupt and negligent practices are shouted down by those of far higher standing seeking and existing only to protect the trail they leave behind and the cash flow they receive as a result.

Fakers are everywhere. But they exist in scenarios that allow them to.

[Dan Winterland]

Very true Top Tup. Some countries have corruption so ingrained in their culture that it seems the system is beyond hope. But in many places where the system does single out the frauds and punish them, there are still those who will escape the regualtion. That is where it's down to us, the honest pilots to do something about it. As a result of my post on this thread, I received a PM from an Italian pilot saying that he hadn't falsified his hours (I don't doubt that) and in his defence stated knew pilots flying for another airline (not Italian) who had. My reply to him was that he should report them if he knew this to be true. By accepting the fact that they had defrauded the system he was compliant in their deceipt. Our industry depends on the honesty of the pilots for it's integrity. Our customers lives depend on our skill and standards. Anything less than complete integrity is simply not acceptable.

Even the regulatory authorities who act don't go far enough. I mentioned the case of a pilot who fabricated a fictional RAF career in the country of my origianl licence issue - the UK. He was prosecuted, but still allowed to fly and later becmae a Captain with another airline. In my book, anyone who displays such a lack of integrity should not be allowed to hold such a position of authority again. He should have been excluded from holding a licence ever again in my opinion.

And some countries seem to making a concerted effort. In China, where corruption is common, there was a recent fatal accident of a regional jet. The investigation discovered the Captain had falsified his hours. Perhaps his lack of experience was a factor when he decided to continue the non-precision approach below the published minima and then crash, but the authorities investigated many pilots and found many others who had padded their hours. They have shown a willingness to act and thier action should improve the image of the aviation industry in that country.

Airlines should be on top of this problem as well. The possiblity of having an insurance claim invalidated because a pilot wasn't properly qualified shoud motivate them!

Those who have read Enest Gann's book 'Fate is the Hunter' may recall he mentioned a pilot who seemed to be not what he claimed. Despite mnay reservations, he was allowed to continue flying and later, Gann expressed regret at not acting when he later heard the pilot had crashed and killed many passengers.

Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover.

[San Pedro]

Those who have read Enest Gann's book 'Fate is the Hunter' may recall he mentioned a pilot who seemed to be not what he claimed. Despite mnay reservations, he was allowed to continue flying and later, Gann expressed regret at not acting when he later heard the pilot had crashed and killed many passengers.

Don't put yourself in that position. 'Out' any frauds you discover

Yea, let's start with the fakes in the subcontinent both nationals and expats.

Next name and shame those Aussie, Boer and latino fakers in Korean. Oops, we will have barrels and barrels of worms!:*

[TopTup]

San Pedro: what's your point?

I was not aware that safety, standards and legalities owned a specific nationality.

Liars and cheats do not posses specific passports. Those types however will seek the avenue of least resistance to act as they do: just as a thief chooses an open window as opposed to securely locked and guarded door.

What I have witnessed is the staunch defiance and pathetic, cheap cries of "racism" and xenophobia when a pilot or system is caught red handed and exposed and chooses the race or nationality card as a means divert cause and reason.

In my post I only mentioned my specific experience at Air India as that is what is relevant to this thread. That involved many locals and expats. Re-read my previous post of the system allowing these pilots to be let through the gates recruited via unscrupulous, deceitful and corrupt agencies, HR departments and regulatory bodies.

DW is right: they must be exposed. What I resent is that it is up to the lowly pilot at the grass roots level to risk vilification by exposing / whistle blow what everyone already damn-well knows:- mainly the agency, airline or regulatory body. And when or if lives are lost those with blood on their hands will ask "Who saw this coming? How did this happen??"

[haejangkuk]

i suspect SP's point is that skygods are quick " out " nationals in 3rd world but balk at exposing those from their home countries. In KAL, when union f/os ask prominent expat captains about some suspected dodgy foreign captains, all they get are stonewalls!

[HighCourt]

Doesn't this happen in all professions? The world is full of chancers.

[Gretchenfrage]

DW is right: they must be exposed. What I resent is that it is up to the lowly pilot at the grass roots level to risk vilification by exposing / whistle blow what everyone already damn-well knows:- mainly the agency, airline or regulatory body.

To whom should poor Giovanni report? I guess right to the Don himself?
(chosing an Italian name and the Mafia Boss should be considered an metaphor, appliable to any nation ....)

If the system is that rotten, the individual can't do anything. He will be eliminated on the spot.

Civil Aviation is rotten. Most regulators are infiltrated and manipulated by the national Airlines or manufacturors. It's about profits and bonusses, safety is simply a poor victim left behind and no one cares. Civil Aviation has to be cheap for the consumer and profitable for the share holder and manager.
Fakers eventually play into their hands. It means a bigger pool of readily and cheaply available pilots. Therfore no power is very much intersted to unveil this corrup behavior.

End of the story.

[corsair]

The more I read threads like this the more I mourn why I ever bothered to do things properly. Surely I could be a Captain by now, fake though I be, in some airline somewhere, been paid silly money. It's depressing. I'm too straight, too sensible. Too naive.

Instead I get paid peanuts for a tough job with zero status and no money. And I hate my job.

Who the hell wants to be a pilot anyway? Dreamers and fools, that's who.

[sundownbettertakecar]

A lot of aspersions cast on the group of South Africans who showed up at Korean Air in 1996..........any truth to that? Maybe their presence blocked the upgrade of a few disgruntled canucks and aussies.

[Toowoomba Taipan]

haejangkuk... suspect SP's point is that skygods are quick " out " nationals in 3rd world but balk at exposing those from their home countries. In KAL, when union f/os ask prominent expat captains about some suspected dodgy foreign captains, all they get are stonewalls! haejangkuki suspect SP's point is that skygods are quick " out " nationals in 3rd world but balk at exposing those from their home countries. In KAL, when union f/os ask prominent expat captains about some suspected dodgy foreign captains, all they get are stonewalls!



Just heard that there is a " parker pen hours " wonderboy from crossair lurking around looking wise, smug and " acy " in korean. I am sure there are guys over there who know about his shenenigans.

[Chuck Canuck]

T Taipan, are you trying to draw attention away from those aussie ex f/os ex 1989 sipute who miraculously went up to KAL as captains after a few years in the middle-east and africa? Parker Pen halfback is known and will soon be outed i believe.

[Far777]

India may have 4000 'fake' pilots

NDTV Correspondent (http://www.ndtv.com/search?q=NDTV+Correspondent), Updated: March 14, 2011 13:38 IST
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http://www.ndtv.com/news/images/fakelicense295.jpg
http://www.ndtv.com/static/images/button_arrow_play.pngClick to Expand & Play

New Delhi: Just a few days after Parminder Kaur Gulati, a suspended pilot of Indigo airline, was arrested on charges of faking her marksheet to get a pilot licence, another arrest on the same grounds has been made. This time around, Captain J K Verma, a pilot of the national carrier Air India has been arrested.

"We have arrested Verma. Investigations are on. We have been provided more names by the Directorate General Civil Aviation (DGCA). The scanner is on two more pilots - Meenakshi Sehgal of Indigo and Swaran Singh Talwar of MDLR," a senior police official said.

It all began after Parminder Kaur Gulati was grounded two months ago for violating landing norms. The matter was then reported to the aviation watchdog, the DGCA. The airline watchdog admits there was a lapse, but says 4000 pilot licences are now under fresh scrutiny.

"In the wake of the fake pilot scare, licenses of 3,000 to 4,000 pilots are being scrutinised by the DGCA," said Civil Aviation secretary Nasim Zaidi.





To get a licence, a pilot has to clear three subjects. But in Gulati's case, a probe by the DGCA showed she couldn't clear two papers, so she allegedly forged the marksheets.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Trouble is that the fakers in the subcontinent were complacent, naive, overconfident and utterly stupid in their silly ways of acquiring of fake qualifications.

There are many fakers from the first world who are pretty savvy in conning their way into Asian legacy carriers that the airline administrations are none the wiser. These more sophisticated con artists cover their arses quite well and can be fairly arrogant in displaying their fake credentials as real. They come out with tirades of abuses and threats of lawsuits to intimidate the poor sods manning the flight crew recruitment in these third world airlines besides bribing their way if needed to.

[typhoonpilot]

Interesting thread. Seen the cheaters myself time and time again over the last 25 years. All too often they get away with it.

Quite a number at my current outfit, I would venture to guess. Often times wonder how guys my age and younger from a defunct South American airline had the 3000 PIC jet to be hired as DECs :confused:

[gerago]

Fakers, fakers....the scourge which never seem to go away. Just the other day, someone asked; what if a faker is involved in a prang with fatalities. The insurance companies are going to dig and dig deep into the background of the commander and his crew. What if the faker is found out and the insurance company refuses to pay? What if you are unfortunate enough to be part of that crew complement and your family cannot get the insurance after your sad demise?

Sunny Boyle raised a very pertinent question. My feeling is that the insurance companies will pay eventually or if the insurance companies wash their hands off the accident, then the airline will have to fork out the payouts. This will certainly be a very long protracted process which will end only very long after the accident. A real scary thing for the aggrieved families.

[d105]

I've was having a discussion on this topic during cruise earlier this week.

How can we prevent "faking" or falsifying flight hours by pilots?

The logbook alone is useless. As said earlier anyone can write up any time they want. The next step we thought of was company records. I would imagine in most EU/NA/ME airlines those should be fairly accurate. But then what to do when a company goes bankrupt.

Maybe a registration system on the national level would help. Perhaps it should be coupled with the database of registered aircraft of that state.

In that way you could makes hours traceable. Each flight hour of aircraft registered as ABCDEF should be coupled to a flight hour logged by pilots MNO/PQR/XYZ/...

A difficult undertaking. But in these days of smart electronics perhaps not impossible...

[flydive1]

Maybe a registration system on the national level would help. Perhaps it should be coupled with the database of registered aircraft of that state.

In that way you could makes hours traceable. Each flight hour of aircraft registered as ABCDEF should be coupled to a flight hour logged by pilots MNO/PQR/XYZ/...

I haven't flown an aircraft registered in my country in more than 10 years

[dnomyer]

did fake some hours, offcourse 80 percent of the students does it, if we sit backseat on a flight, offcourse we log it! if u believe in youreself, and if u think youre a good pilot few hours doesent matter. i was teaching for a while myself, and i saw students who faked many and many. and now they are on b777 or other airplanes, but the time has come that the organisations need to do something. specially to Indians , they are the biggest threat! its ok to fake small amount, but to pay for the ratings without any experience is dangerous.

[main_dog]

its ok to fake small amount

Yes, and it's ok to descend a little bit below minimums... or to takeoff slightly overweight...

I hope you're winding us up- regardless, I weep for our profession.

:ugh:

[samjetblaster]

It's not ok to fake at all.
:=

[blaireau]

Slight bit of thread creep, but some years back whilst sitting my ATPL exams, I watched a group of Libyans cheating. Their system was that the "brightest" one sat at the back, and having finished his exam, strolled up to hand his paper to the invigilator. En route, he dropped a note on the desk of the one in front. Thus it continued.

Being agrieved, I complained directly to the CAA. I was asked to visit their offices to give full details of the events. Coincidentally, the guy I spoke to, had to leave the room for a few moments. Also coincidentally, he had left my results on his desktop in full view. This was quite a relief since results were not due to be published for a further week or so.

Doubtless the cheats profited, but perhaps invigilating standards were improved.

[stuckgear]

How can we prevent "faking" or falsifying flight hours by pilots?


quite simply it cannot be eradicated, there will always be some area in which such instances may occur. Even when random audits occur.

However... A professional commercial pilot has legal responsibilities to contend with in the course of their work. If a pilot therefore undertakes to falsify records / documentation, examination results or circumvent regulatory process, then there has to remain the question in what other areas of their work do/will they falsify records / documentation, examination results or circumvent regulatory process.

[Phantom Driver]

No chance of this sort of stuff in the RAF. Had to submit your log book with an hours summary every month, to be checked and signed by the Squadron Commander; every three months same logbook countersigned by Station Commander (or Base Commander, as preferred by our transatlantic friends).

Habit still sticks to this day (monthly summary). Never ceased to amaze me, when I entered civil flying, that nobody took much interest in that hallowed document. You could write whatever you wished with the world famous Parker Pen.. Proper companies had their own computerised records which proper chaps could request to back up their own written records.

Needless to say, dodgy members of our profession would be in no hurry to avail themselves of this option.

[Tipsy Barossa]

It's time major airlines get rid of the practice of depending on personal flying logbook to ascertain the experience level of applicants. They should use certified computerised records from the applicant's former airline. I have seen many cheats around where the parker pens and biros were put to really creative use in the padding of skyhigh jet hours.

The smaller outfits will really have to be vigilant in accepting candidates from bush flying, charter, corporate, freight or recreational backgrounds.

And what the :mad: are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY :ugh:

[ross_M]

What if people had to keep online logbooks open for scrutiny from any one. That might incentivize whistle-blowing at least.....

[xrba]

PD, see my post 15!

[Phantom Driver]

PD, see my post 15! Noted! A pity the example is not followed a bit more in the outside world.
Might put a stop to all this nonsense.

[Phantom Driver]

And what the :mad: are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY'nuff said:(

[Jennie023]

I totally Agree with the post ! :ok:

[Speedbird48]

We are talking about the fraudulent pilots from the Indian sub-continent, which is all true, but what about the doctors, teachers that have all done the same to get their qualifications, and then used them to get immigrant status into our part of the world??

We should also mention the many europeans that went to the US and bought shared time on various twins and both logged the hours!!

The US pilot that I came across officially that had presented a fraudulent check ride form to a crewing company so that he could fly an airplane that he wasn't qualified for in the 3rd world.

There are many others in different lines of work that should be bought to task.

[IO540]

Being a private pilot I extremely rarely drop into these threads, but let me point out a few things...

Logbook forgery is hardly going to be limited to India or whatever. You don't need a PhD to work out that any flight logged right here in the UK, between non-ATC airfields, can be forged. OK, the smaller ones supposedly keep visitor books, but for how long? The long road to an ATPL can easily take years of hour building, and if you have to stuff your logbook with hundreds of hours, the "option" is staring you in the face. And is forging 100 hours somehow morally "better" than forging 1000 hours?

And is illegal logbook stuffing much worse than renting a C150 in Arizona and flying up and down between two airports, day and night, on a 100-hour rental block at £35/hour (a price current not that many years ago)? It must be, because the C150 time is so relevant to flying an A330 :)

Then move onto various "easy routes" which have existed at various times. Even in ultra gold plated JAA-land, there have been "ways" to convert one set of non-JAA ICAO papers into JAA ones. One super route closed only last year. Ireland used to convert various papers into JAA ones, until it became too well known. A lot of these routes hang on the concept that almost every country will give you a local CPL/IR if you have another ICAO CPL/IR and have a relationship with a commercial operator on the country's registry, and the relationship can be just doing some ad hoc stuff, working as a flight instructor, etc. Many pilots avoided the 14 ATPL exams by doing these routes. I am sure most of "us" would have jumped at the chance of avoiding the 14-exam JAA garbage-swatting process whose relevance to aviation, as I happen to be more than familiar with, is somewhere below 10%. I've just got 96% on the 1960s RAF radar set stuff... but is it relevant? None of this is illegal but "pot and kettle" come to mind :)

And then look at the whole JAA CPL/IR / ATPL process. For all the gold plating, most of it is utter garbage. The 14 exams are, as I say, more than 90% nonsense which has zero (zilch) relevance to any practical form of aviation. I bet that if you dragged the entire BA Captain population, in their Col Gaddafi ceremonial dress, into an exam room, they would fail the exams comprehensively. Well, not IFR Comms ;) European pilots have no basis for regarding themselves superior for having passed through this classroom sausage machine, whose syllabus is almost wholly an ego trip of long-retired ex RAF navigators.

And then you have the flight training, banging so many hours in a clapped out Seminole or whatever, flying NDB holds to "perfection". Another syllabus writer ego trip whose relevance to aviation ended with, approximately, the Comet :)

And then you have the hordes of starry eyed airline pilot wannabees travelling the well worn tracks to places like Hungary in search of a CV test where the AME will not keep a record of anybody who failed - a priceless facility because you are allowed only one fail in your lifetime of each of the four or so CV tests. How many 10000hr BA Captains got their initial CV test down there? The whole JAA medical system where you are allowed Demonstrated Ability only on a Renewal is a complete in-your-face perverted farce which flies in the face of any sort of natural justice, never mind recruiting on the basis of demonstrable ability to do the job. Even the CAA, in its famous CV study (doubtless prompted by the haemorrhage of Medical Dept income to certain "outlying" JAA members), has admitted that the existing CV tests are basically garbage and only the W-H Lantern test means anything. Most of the most experienced jet pilots have significant hearing problems by the time they retire. It doesn't affect their ability to do the job.

Obviously there is a difference between outright illegality, and everything short of that, but does it suprise anybody that when somebody sees the almost complete farce which pilot training and medicals are in this gold-plated land, they decide to help themselves a little? And where exactly do you draw the line when somebody has found a "little hole" in the system somewhere?

(FAA CPL/IR, JAA PPL, FAA & JAA Class 1 medicals, 1300hrs)

[lexxie747]

IO540!
can i buy you a beer?
well said!

[PLovett]

IO540, you have my vote for the post of the year award. :ok:

[stuckgear]

can we upgrade IO540 to a GTSIO540 ??

[d105]

So are we condoning fakers now?

[toro]

Well well IO540...... (I have a lot of genuine IO540 time).

A lot of what you said is true but your completely over the top rant does spoil it somewhat.. "BA Capts in their Col Gaddafi uniforms".....WTF.??? you come across as a very bitter & twisted individual who I see does NOT hold a JAA CPL/ATPL but an FAA one....!!

As I hold ATPL's from many countries (Including Australia, USA, UK, etc etc) I can appreciate some of your rant but I can absolutely assure you that FAA licences do not in any shape or form compare with other "first" world countries.

So on the basis you haven't sat or you have failed to pass a JAA licence exam your rant does not hold water and those who are eulogising you are presumably just as ignorant.... maybe.?

Anyway off on my US Airways flight now so no hard feelings.

Might be an idea to sit down, calm down & have a nice cup of tea and reappraise your post.?

[IO540]

It was an attempt at being funny, toro :)

I do think you have given the game away with

I can absolutely assure you that FAA licences do not in any shape or form compare with other "first" world countries.which is nonsense. The difference between an FAA PPL and a JAA PPL is ... the FAA one is a lot more thorough. The difference between an FAA CPL and a JAA CPL is a load of accurate VFR dead reckoning in the JAA one (perhaps useful in an A330 with all the tubes iced up but no, hang on, you need to know the TAS for DR to work, so what is it useful for?) and some fun flying (chandelles, lazy eights, etc) in the FAA one. The difference between an FAA IR and a JAA IR is that the FAA one is usually a damn lot higher checkride workload, with most of the checkride being partial panel / timed turns, etc. but the JAA one has, hey, accurately flown NDB holds. The biggest difference is the 14 JAA exams which are almost wholly irrelevant to flying.

My main point was that the JAA commercial pilot training system is mostly a facade, which nobody questions because most ATPL cadets are broke and desperate to get a job ASAP and are not going to rock the boat, while loads of commercial pilots living and working in Europe have used various "handy" routes to get their papers, which is legal whereas logbook forgery is illegal.

I do not support logbook forgery one bit (it is not actually unknown in GA, either, with some "celebrated" cases) but it is kind of hard to argue it morally when the "JAA moral high ground" is nonexistent.

[White Knight]

Quote:
And what the are " major " legacy carriers accepting candidates from dubious outfits where they certainly know that hours can easily be fudged? Korean, CA, Air China, even EK and EY
'nuff said

Well, I can assure you that here at EK (Emirates) the logbooks and experience are THOROUGHLY checked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And no certification by your ex employer means no join!!!

[hum]

AAh... the emperor's new clothes revealed.... :D:D:D

Of course all will be better now we have moved to EASA... :}

[Prober]

What a bitter and twisted rant and, even if it was supposed to be funny – which it was not – it demonstrates a great deal of ignorance. And FWIW I had to revert to DR on two separate occasions whilst flying the Trident, once under rather hostile conditions (but we won’t go into that here!) and the other whilst enjoying difficult technical problems. We were not travelling at 120 kts either, so the outcome had to be fairly accurate – in fact when in the hostile case it had to be absolutely spot on – and it was (UK ATPL).

[toro]

still waiting for flight.... so will respond.

if you read my response I very largely agreed with your post, although you do come across as rather frustrated/bitter...?

anyway as I have passed FAA & CAA ATPL exams albeit some 20 years ago there was no comparison. e.g. I studied the answers for the FAA exam in one day & took the main exam in less than one hour..!!!

I have lots of buddies here in the US who are AA Capts & I am not denegrating them or any other nationality of competency or ability.

But for you to accuse eg BA Capts with 10000 hrs going off to Hungary to obtain a CV is patently ridiculous.

feel free to pm me & I will talk to the director of flight ops so you can pop in for interview tell him of your allegations because I am sure he would bin any pilot with dodgy credentials, & then possibly you might obtain one of those " gaddafi uniforms"...!!

good luck with the Lycoming.

[IO540]

as I have passed FAA & CAA ATPL exams albeit some 20 years ago there was no comparison. e.g. I studied the answers for the FAA exam in one day & took the main exam in less than one hour..!!!That is indeed possible for an existing pilot with experience - because the FAA theory is mostly relevant and practical in nature. I did something similar on the FAA CPL exam.

That doesn't mean it is easy. It just means you already knew the material.

You can't do that with the JAA CPL/IR exams which are mostly irrelevant garbage. In those, any amount of experience will get you about 50% max and the rest has to be swatted up from the question bank.

Also, I gather from old-timers, the Euro exams were a bit better 20 years ago. Not a lot better, but JAA gets the prize for introducing the biggest load of garbage. And in those days there were easier routes to an IR e.g. the 700hr route.

By CV I mean the initial colour vision test. You have to get a pass just once, anywhere in JAA-land, and it is good for life. The problem is that if you fail (in that particular type of CV test) you are (in theory ;) ) barred from re-taking that test for the rest of your life. For example I failed the Isihara but passed the Lantern test (a very common thing). But had I failed the Lantern test, I would have been stuffed - unless it was done by a doctor who just let me walk out of the office so I could try again elsewhere... you can pass most things with practice but not in this perverse procedure, unless you can get hold of the test unit beforehand and practice with it.

A pity Hum's beautiful pic of the king having no clothes has been deleted :)

[Dan Winterland]

''That doesn't mean it is easy. It just means you already knew the material.'''

Is that because he learned it from studying the JAA syllabus? :ouch:

The answers to FAA questions can be learned from the study books prior to sitting in front of the computer for a couple of hours. You needn't understand the answers - just which one to click from memory when that question comes up. I too took the FAA exams after having done the UK ATPL and found them very easy. I'm not saying the UK syllabus was particularly relevant, but it does give you a much better knowlegde base. And quite a few licencing agencies around the world agree - FAA ATPLs often require a lot of exams to be taken for conversion.

[IO540]

I'm not saying the UK syllabus was particularly relevant, but it does give you a much better knowlegde base

You didn't quite mean to confirm what I have been saying, did you? :)

[haejangkuk]

I flew with a Malaysian captain who took the British style ATPL exams over 30 years ago and I was shocked at the type of exhaustive syllabus he had to undergo. When I asked if any of those stuff was of any relevance, he replied very relevant if you were flying in the 50's and 60's; not much use if you are a modern day airline pilot flying modern aircrafts. However he cautioned that it is an ATPL, air transport pilot license, a license for airline transport pilots NOT NECESSARILY only air carriers. He said that there are air transport pilots working in some remote areas of the world with outdated equipments where the knowledge garnered from the ATPL syllabus will prove most helpful. So, modern airline pilots, don't be close minded and think only of your big shiny jets. There are still many old aircrafts hauling freight and people in remote corners where the ATPL pilot really use those stuff learnt. It is still AIR TRANSPORT!

[IO540]

he replied very relevant if you were flying in the 50's and 60'sI agree with that, but is it now 2011...

The 1950s were 60 years ago.

The 1960s were 50 years ago.

He said that there are air transport pilots working in some remote areas of the world with outdated equipmentsWhat kind of commercial operations is the JAA syllabus training people for? Is the EU digging out some DC3 wreckage in the People's Republic of Upper Volta, or even the Belgian Congo, refurbishing them with original instruments collected from museums around the world, and sending fresh JAA CPL/IR holders to fly them?

99.9% of new JAA trained pilots are heading for the nearest 18-30 Club 737/Airbus going to Lanzarote, or possibly a bizjet career. Some will end up instructing...

You better hope the Daily Mail doesn't read this stuff :)

[SmilingKnifed]

Well my first commercial job was chucking a 1960s Czech-built turboprop round the Congo. Pretty far removed from the Airbus skill-set!

I'm not saying you're wrong 100%, but in recent economic circumstances people have been taking all sorts of flying jobs in all sorts of machines. The ATPL could become a dying breed with the more airline-specific MPL, but that's a whole new can of worms!

[Big Pistons Forever]

US main line jet operators all operate with all FAA licensed ATPL crews. They are trained in a system which puts the emphasis on demonstrated in aircraft skills and not on mastering reams of theoretical knowledge like the UK/EU ATPL process.

Since they have the lowest accident rate of any juristiction, IMO they have the right approach. I think any dispationate attempt to tie the content of the theory of the ATP course to actual demonstrated operating problem areas/incident/accidents would show that virtually all of the current ATPL CAA/JAA/EASA ground school is utterly irrelevant to what pilots actually need to know.

I respect the effort you guys put ib to passing all the theory exams but in my personal experience the FAA system on average produces better pilots.

[ehwatezedoing]

Me too! I respect the effort with all the theory exams.
Things like knowing the amount of molecules your windshield contain...




Might not help much in case of a decompression though...:}

[PT6A]

Actually your data on the US having the lowest accident rate is wrong. Check out the official ICAO stats.

[Big Pistons Forever]

PT6A

If you take out the 9/11 crashes which obviously were out of the control of the airlines then the stats clearly show that for the last 20 years the lowest fleet incident/accident rates in the world are for mainline jet operations by United States airlines.

Bottom line is that FAA ATP license holders holds somehow seem to be doing a pretty good job without knowing how to derive the mathematical formulas behind the forces affecting a Gyro, or which way the wind blows in India in June. :rolleyes:

[IO540]

There is no possible way to support the 14 ludicrously irrelevant JAA ATPL exams by saying that the pilot may one day get a job in the Belgian Congo (or its modern-day equivalent).

This is because the exam candidate forgets the vast majority of the stuff within a few weeks of sitting the exam.

Nowadays the big FTOs cover the syllabus quickly and then hammer the question bank because that is the only practical way to get the 75%, given the number of questions which are ambiguous, misleading, or simply wrong.

By the time the chap has logged the 500hrs of multi crew time, the theory is long gone...

or which way the wind blows in India in June

And the name of the wind, too :)

[teresa green]

Leave us 89er's out of it. There were few pilots be either a Skipper or F/O that were not capable of going on to greater things. They certainly were not 400 hr blokes they are putting in now. Most were bush bashers, not cadets, most were good blokes, good pilots, capable pilots, and as a check and training bloke I should know. Very few fakers left Australia, most would have only been a asset.

[LeadSled]

Teresa,
Certainly not too many fakes exported after '89, if any, but we certainly imported a few to get Ansett and TAA up and running again.
Not to mention the old TNT/Transcorp freighter.
Tootle pip!!

[Andu]

I went to the US to get my ATR after '89, and, (to cut a very long story short), along with a couple of mates, switched from one dodgy training establishment (who were not delivering the promised goods) to what seemed to be a less dodgy one.

The very unhappy manager of the training school I was leaving told me that the place I was going to had made a small fortune in the last few months putting pilots about to leave for Australia through a quickie ATR course. I.e. some, if not quite a few of the American "captains" who came out to "save" Australia hadn't been captains very long at all before their departure from the US.

It wouldn't have taken Ansett and Australian any more effort than to check the date of their new captains' ATR certificates, but I don't think they were too concerned about such trivialities at the time.

[Asynic]

Any thoughts on the following:

http://www.pprune.org/jet-blast/468110-where-do-fakers-go.html

Anyone at KAL have their memories triggered?

[AN2 Driver]

As someone who did the frozen ATPL in the 1990ties pre-JAA, along with the IR and CPL, I have to say I fully support IO540's conclusions. It does go further than that however and has, to a large extent, caused the exodus of a huge part of the GA community from lowly PPL's to full ATPL's to go the FAA route. The result of which is that there is a ton of N / VP and the likes registered aircraft in Europe these days.

EASA of course is fighting this vigorously and has, with the EASA FCL released not too long ago, forced quite a lot of people to now to redo all they did in the FAA syllabus again in the JAA and later EASA one if they wish to continue to operate their N-Registered airplanes in Europe. That is why quite a few pilots who have gotten their licenses and hours in the FAA world now are faced with grounding in Europe and get to know the JAA syllabus rather more intimately than they care for.

There are those who call the N-reg crowd "fakers". While I did all my stuff in Europe and never flew in the US but for a validated PPL, I disagree strongly with that notion. The reason the FAA philosophy differs so greatly from JAA is pretty much in the way regulators in Europe have seen aviation as opposed to the American way. Therefore it is not suprprising that when JAA and now EASA put the hammer down on the FAA system by no longer accepting anything the FAA put to paper, the big escape started. Likewise, there are thousands of FAA licensed pilots who would not get a medical in Europe, as the requirements for an initial medical include stuff like your BMI and certain issues in vision e.t.c. which won't harm your flying one bit but simply, because someone said it had to be so, is in there. So the new licencing requirement in Europe is going to ground a few thousand pilots, at least here.

The other issue of course is the one where one has to ask the question what 200 or 400 or how many hours in VFR Cessnas will contribute to one's ability to operate an Airbus or Boeing. IMHO, not a great deal. And by now, FAA rules on this are even more restrictive, in order to FO on an airliner you now need over a thousand hours (correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that was the consequence of the Colgan crash).

IMHO, and from what I have seen, experience which will help you is experience which has as much variation as there is possible. The Military still is one of those paths, but not the only one. I for one would trust someone more who has done his hour gathering on a variety of airplane classes and in different parts of the world successfully than someone who has been teaching newbies the traffic circuit for 5 years but has never really left it. I've seen 2000 hour pilots here who have never left a 200 mile circle around their airfield. Is that experience? On the other hand, is flying GA airplanes around Europe or the the whole US on a regular basis, IFR, possibly the better way to collect those hours?

I have huge respect for the 20k + pilots who have gotten their hours on a wide spectrum of aviation. Sometimes, my respect for a high time Captain who advertizes that fact like a doctorate is a bit diminished if I find out that he has in reality spent 80% + of this time on the same airplane, flying the same routes and on autopilot. Not that I'd say this is not experience. But to turn around the wheel a bit, would someone like that be qualified to take a GA plane like IO540 or I operate through Europe after his retirement without some serious re-training? I've seen quite some indications contrary to this.

Therefore I believe that instead of throwing our flight hours or experience into the ring in a never ending "mine is bigger" contest, all of us who love aviation for what it is should try to do the utmost to

-pass on our experience, whatever it may be, onto those joining our ranks.
-use all that is in our power to see to it that the path to the desirable seats are not taken over by overconfident and often enough incapable bureaucrats who have nothing better to do than to throw stones onto a otherwise pretty straightforward process of experience gathering.

I think all of you who are out there on the airliners and GA planes have seen it happen back and forth. There will be people who have the talent and ability to go on a RH seat at 400 hours, provided their training was done professionally and adequately for the job which awaits them. At the same time, there are people around who won't succeed even after 10'000 hours of lucky escapes to become real aviators as opposed to system operators and "drivers". The current system of training often enough punishes those who are of the former cathegory and will, funds provided, let people of the latter achieve the jobs they are not made for.

Best regards
AN2 Driver

[Asynic]

Well what about specific high profile fakers?

The question posed on other threads and other forum regards a certain "Bristol Cowboy" with an interesting past in the middle east, Africa and the UK, who may have flown for KAL and how he "legitimised" himself. FAA ATP obtained on faked foreign licence?

Where do these guys go and khan they hide their past?

Anyone boeing to comment?

[harold ballz]

fly what you can, log what you need

[Airbubba]

Certainly not too many fakes exported after '89, if any

Well, a few of my Ozmate AFAP friends a while back told me how easy it was to pencil whip command time and get a captain's job at Thai. Something about some formula to convert P2 to P1 time with the Oz license. They were put up in the Rama Gardens hotel in BKK on good terms and conditions with entirely too many young women around. This was in the 1990's, don't even know if Thai still has expats or not.