The Greed at the Top of Air Canada

[publius]

IMHO
It ceases to amaze me how this egocentric chappy does not seem to understand or comprehend that the very reason he arrived at No.1 was because all his colleagues, senior to him, retiring at age 60, with grace and humility, adhering to the mandatory retirement age in place at Air Canada and part of the Air Canada Pilots Collective Agreement at the time of their employment.
Pilot's at Air Canada, as I understand, have recently voted 82% status quo, in favour of maintaining the Age 60 mandatory rule! :D


Globe Investor - The Globe and Mail (http://m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/a-pilots-quest-to-remain-at-the-top/article1939277/?service=mobile)

[Shell Management]

I can see the end coming to the warpped system of merit-less seniority lists by this pressure to work beyond 60.

[click]

I wouldn't be so quick. Date of hire or similar should be the only criteria for a seniority list, unless merged where it's up to the unions to battle it out. As soon as you start entering merit into it...that's a pandora's box and you will forever and ever relegate the carrier into banana republic territory. It's like an Anal Oscar...upgrade for the rectal athletes able to crawl through the bowels of management and tickle the tonsils of the decision makers. That's the positive side, but what if you have to cull? Our assassination squad moved in and cleansed the fleet based on 'merit'. One fella had less than 6 weeks to retirement...it's hard to explain it to a wife whose husband was purged on account of someone who is lower on the totem pole but has merit.

[TartinTon]

So you think that time in the company is the only criteria that is relevant in terms of seniority? What a load of horsesh*t!! So the oldest, most incompetant staff member should always be considered first over a much more capable younger member of staff? How utterly ridiculous...1960's union thinking if ever I heard it. The best person for the job should get the job regardless of age..no question.

[jammers]

Seniority does have it's place at any legacy carrier. It seems though that what we have here, as I read from the newspaper article, is someone who has been at the top of the food chain, having been hired at 21 yrs of age and a 39 year career. Now with only 1 month remaining before mandatory retirement this lad is jumping up and down to stay, crying like a baby to stay in a position attained by the very fact that colleagues before him have retired graciously. Threatening his Union with legal action is tasteless and pompous. I say move over and pass the torch to younger colleagus who are waiting their turn..........there is life after flying!

[HundredPercentPlease]

I say let him carry on flying, if he wants to.

But reset his DOJ to his 60th birthday.

[Checkboard]

But reset his DOJ to his 60th birthday.
Nice solution :)

I have worked for an airline where bidding and leave was based on a rotating seniority list. Every month the top 1/9th of the list was placed in reverse order on the bottom - thus the entire list rotated every 9 months (i.e. on top for xmas this year? Half way down next year & bottom the year after).

It shared the good and bad nicely across the group - and you didn't have to wait 30 years to see a Christmas at home, or a good four day slip.

Promotion, base bids & type changes were date of joining.

... Having said that, I would prefer a rotating list for leave & work bids, and a date-of-joining initial list for promotion/base bids, but with direct entry to initial position (based on hours) for experienced crew (i.e. you can hire a direct entry Captain or high-time FO, and place them into an appropriate position on the list, if you can show they have significantly more experience (say 150%) than the equivalent company employees).

[clunckdriver]

In Canada we are an ageing population, this SOB and others are using this to get on board the "Human Rights" bandwagon along with others to break the terms they were hired under and agreed to throughout their flying career, now when its time to go they want to change the rules! The vast majority of the pilots wish to maintain the great perk of going at sixty and having a life, this guy was hired at 21 without any real background {Nepotism?} so has no real experience outside the company, most of us were hired at between 27 and 35 with some fairly extensive flying histories. Im am tempted to use the great quote from Britains House of Commons used I belive to get Chamberlin on his way. "You have been too long around this place, in the name of God be gone!" As an end note he might like to check the average longevity of retired pilots in Canada, my own course reunion can now be held in a phone booth.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning All:

Please visit the Canada link towards the bottom (Rest of the World and Non-English Forums) and look for "A Pilots Quest to Remain at the Top."

Later on you will find readers comments and the majority are far from complimentary, all current comments were copied and there was no attempt to put in comments to just support the article as some suggested. Please feel free to articulate your comments there to show the worlds interest in this article.

At one time there was nobility in the profession where the overwhelming attitude was to help the junior pilot. I could try to articulate the sentiment of the day but at this point I do not want to clutter this response.

I will not comment on the individuals desire to stay but I will say this when it came my turn to "pass the torch" I did it with pride as I knew I did not break the faith of those who preceded me.

[publius]

http://www.pprune.org/canada/445444-pilot-s-quest-remain-top.html

Thanks A330pilotcanada. Seems you have the inside scoop on this Ennis chappy. Quite the selfish SOB. Frankly, I don't know how he is able to show his face in FLT Ops never mind sharing the cockpit with his colleagues!

[Callsign Kilo]

Your times come pal, someone elses turn at the top.

"i shouldn't have to leave Canada" - well don't would be my response. THY will be 'enlightening' I'm sure. I'll give you until your 61st birthday before your back across the pond vowing never to set foot in an aeroplane again!

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Evening Publis:

It would take a few pints of Guinness to walk you through this story.

Take care sir.

[twochai]

Your time's come pal, someone else's turn at the top.

Reminds of the age old story from the days of three man crews:


Scene: Crew in DC-8 sim, approaching FAF on a dark and dirty night. Instructor at the console announces "Captain just slumped over the wheel, unresponsive."


F/O calls to Flt Engineer: "Help me get this SOB outta my seat".

[L337]

The best person for the job should get the job regardless of age..no question

And how is that going to be established?

Define "the best" exactly.

Is it best as defined by the corrupt chief pilot and his pet pilots..or his golf companions, or his wife's brothers son? Or the trainer who accepts a small bribe, or the manager who promotes the most company pro pilot, irrespective of safety concerns? Or the 22 year old who can fly a perfect ILS but has zero experience....How does experience fit in with this concept of best?

Or what?

Seniority, and a Command course has its problems, but the alternative is anarchy, and a thief's charter.

[heavy.airbourne]

Look at the indian system: best pilots are those who pay most. Nobody wants that! :=
Be careful what you wish for.

[Huck]

Don't like the seniority system? Go fly corporate.

Before long you'll wish you were back in the seniority system.

Pilots are unique in that they have to be perfect. Every landing must be successful or you are out of a job, or dead.

There are rewards of a sort for above-average pilots, though. You can bid bigger planes or fly international instead of camping out on the narrow-body. You can get into training or standards. You can get into management. But the line pilots' skills need to be so similar one to the other that merit is meaningless.

And as an aside, I'd take the sixties over the naughties any day......

[GlobalExpressDriver]

A pilot is not past his "best by date" because he reaches 60.

Some of us are in good health (in fact, it seems the "cockpit slumps" occur to younger folks.. according to a recent research) and wish to go on past 60.

Unions with all of its evolutions and convolutions is just not my thing.

That said, the dude at AC benefitted from all the advantages of CALPA for a few decades... he should not complain much. :=

[20driver]

There are two separate issues here, one using seniority for promotion and the second is using seniority for pay and benefits.

The AC situation is an inevitable consequence of a pay system that shafts the people at the bottom for the benefit of those above. This is consistent feature of union environments. (Might also explain unions losing power all over)

The AC list makes it so dammed good at the top that people are going to fight to stay. The AC pilots can fix this by going to a rotating bid system, something totally inside the realm of their contract and ensuring that joe senior gets to watch for sleighs every few years. Pay can be based on time in service. (note - that is not age, but time in)

Seniority for pay and promotions is a managers dream for two reasons. One is it solves a vexing and expensive problem, scheduling. The best part is it ties pilots to the company like nothing else.

The argument about seniority for promotions might have had its merits at one time but all sorts of industries deal with this without such a remedy. Command upgrades still require assessment and evaluation. The insurance companies and the regulators are going to be very interested in how this gets done. Also any real company is going to have written procedures in place and will follow them or spend years in court fighting discrimination cases. Again seniority based upgrades does management a favor as it saves them from actually having to develop policies and implement them. At the end of the day they are going to train X pilots and they better mostly pass so its only upside to the company to have the selection done for them.

I can see why people on the inside working their way up a long list are invested in the current system but overall it screws pilots like no other group I can think of. The sooner the whole thing is dumped the better. It seems Mr Ennis might be the poster boy for change. A "fair" roster at AC would benefit the majority of the pilots. Yes there will be no more glory days of being #1, but even in the old days that never lasted that long anyways. OTOH if you presented a deal to the current pilots that said:
1 - from now on you will get Xmas or NewYears at home for half of your remaining time at AC, if that is what you want
2 -your pay will still progress as under the current system
3 - The new system will give the fly till you die crowd a real incentive to leave (Not that it matters anymore)

I suspect you'd get a buy in from the majority.

[wonderbusdriver]

I agree.
Retirement at 50 or 55 won´t do it for most (legacy carrier employees - I´m not talking about the other folks!!) with divorces, kid´s education, multiple families to support but...

You just have to "get a life" way before retirement and commit at some point and and stop using the seniority system (IT WORKS!!) for whatever suits you.

"What am I to do at home?" just doesn´t cut it.
Stripes on the uniform, MATOW etc. just don´t cut it.

Human rights!!!???
So he will have to fly ex IST and communicate via Skype (he has to be stupid or cheap) just to wear his uniform and fly an A340!

IST is cool and he should savor the opportunity to make new experiencies (take the wifey along!!!), without having to think about existential fears regarding supporting his family.

Makes me want to throw up.

[beamer]

Greed, pure and simple - the guy needs to get out more - must be a delight to fly with for a young F/O.

[Oldaircrew]

The seniority system is the worst system devised by the wit of man; except for all the others(with apologies to Winston Churchill)

[Lost in Saigon]

Greed, pure and simple - the guy needs to get out more - must be a delight to fly with for a young F/O.

Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension.

If he were truly greedy, he would have no problem retiring from Air Canada, collecting his pension, and then earing a top salary from Turkish Airlines on top of his pension. "Double Dipping" would produce much more money for him, but he is not interested in more money. He only wants the basic human dignity of continuing to work at his place of choice.

The only greedy ones I see are the impatient youth with dollar signs in their eyes lusting after the higher paying job.

A very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires "Late".

No career stagnation, and no cost to the pension plan, or company.

A win-win for everyone.

[billy one sock]

Seniority is an antiquated system in my view. It restricts free trade, thus lowers terms and conditions in the long run. It's a good system for management because they know they have very experienced Pilots by the short and currlies. If Pilots want to move on, because they dislike something about the company, they can't because they are trapped. They know they will have to start a new job at the very bottom, on a pittance of a salary. How fair is that? Experience should not be rewarded this way. This would happen in no other industry. Could you imagine a high earning broker from the city moving on and having to start his new job as a tea boy? It just wouldn't happen. I think promotion should be based on merit, but leave and base transfers on date of joining.

And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby:yuk:

[Lost in Saigon]

Seniority is an antiquated system in my view. It restricts free trade, thus lowers terms and conditions in the long run. It's a good system for management because they know they have very experienced Pilots by the short and currlies. If Pilots want to move on, because they dislike something about the company, they can't because they are trapped. They know they will have to start a new job at the very bottom, on a pittance of a salary. How fair is that? Experience should not be rewarded this way. This would happen in no other industry. Could you imagine a high earning broker from the city moving on and having to start his new job as a tea boy? It just wouldn't happen. I think promotion should be based on merit, but leave and base transfers on date of joining.

And as for that big shot Michael Ennis. What an egotistical cry baby:yuk:

What is the retirement age at your company? Air Canada seems to one of the few airlines still retiring their pilots at age 60. Would you mind if Michael Ennis retires from Air Canada and gets hired at your company as a direct entry Captain? I am quite sure his experience level is higher than yours and therefore based on merit alone, you won't mind waiting a little longer for a Command position.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Morning L.I.S.

You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.

Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension? As far as "double dipping" Mr Ennis is going to THY where he will be making much more than at Air Canada. Oh this one is very difficult, until it was fashionable to have a collective agreement which I might add was contractually agreed by both company and legal teams from both sides reviewed word by word it was put to the membership for a vote. Guess what the majority of the union accepted that provision through voting. Now a minority in the 3,000 (5 percent) pilots is now taking this to Canada Human Rights Tribunal because their human rights are being violated

Your argument would have more intellectual credibility if you mentioned if you either showed up at a council meeting with someone to second your motion to have the L.E.C. take your concerns to the M.E.C. or run for union office with your platform being the abolishment of contractually oh sorry "FORCED" retirement.

From the reader's comments in response to Mr Ennis's Globe and Mail article and from PPRuNe there is much thoughtful discussion here than at AvCanada which seems to produce discourse analogous to phyla pastry which if you have not tried it is light and fluffy.

[billy one sock]

"Would you mind if Michael Ennis retires from Air Canada and gets hired at your company as a direct entry Captain?"

I would not mind at all if the traffic was two way. The problem with companies that adopt a silly seniority system is it's a closed shop, the traffic is only one way. I bet if we had a free Market the money would go up!

[Lost in Saigon]

Good Morning L.I.S.

You mentioned: very simple solution to all this is to let one pilot retire early for every pilot who retires Late". The following in a previous post would you please educate us in the 2% penalty provision per year retiring early refers under the current collective agreement for retiring. Or in today's environment have the company swallow that one or how about the membership. Wow look at the GREEDY S.O.B. who wants to retire early I will have to support him/her.

The 2% penally for early retirement will not be needed because of the reduced drain on the pension fund due to pilots over 60 continuing to contribute to the plan while not drawing on it. Some keen actuaries with sharp pencils might even figure out a way to let 2 pilots retire without penalty for every one that stays.



Greed? How is it greedy that he wants to continue at Air Canada and not start collecting his pension? As far as "double dipping" Mr Ennis is going to THY where he will be making much more than at Air Canada. Oh this one is very difficult, until it was fashionable to have a collective agreement which I might add was contractually agreed by both company and legal teams from both sides reviewed word by word it was put to the membership for a vote. Guess what the majority of the union accepted that provision through voting. Now a minority in the 3,000 (5 percent) pilots is now taking this to Canada Human Rights Tribunal because their human rights are being violated

Your argument would have more intellectual credibility if you mentioned if you either showed up at a council meeting with someone to second your motion to have the L.E.C. take your concerns to the M.E.C. or run for union office with your platform being the abolishment of contractually oh sorry "FORCED" retirement.

From the reader's comments in response to Mr Ennis's Globe and Mail article and from PPRuNe there is much thoughtful discussion here than at AvCanada which seems to produce discourse analogous to phyla pastry which if you have not tried it is light and fluffy.

Many years ago, when the subject first came up, ACPA refused any intelligent conversation on the subject of working past age 60. They also refused to represent any pilot who wanted to challenge forced retirement. There is no reason to believe anything has changed.

The Air Canada contract has been found to contravene the law of the land. Appeals are in the works, but right now it is futile and childish to defend your position by saying "we voted on it".

[clunckdriver]

One sock, having worked at a company which did not have a senioity system and having been in corporate for the last thirteen years rather than get into some discussion of the merits of such a system I will simply recount a little story in which I had the staring part. Twas a dark and dirty night, moderate to severe ice forcast and reported from sea level to ten thousand feet, my trusty DC4 night frieghter had the boots removed in the name of efficiency and the two right prop de icers were U/S, the late night DC6 had elected not to go even though all his systems were working and he could climb on top, the captain by the way held a DFC and a DFM, so his courage and judgment were not in question. In view of all this I elected to sit it out untill the crap moved further South, having made this decision I recieved a call from the Chief Pilot, known to all as Captain Moron, during the conversation he let it be known that if I didnt go "my suitibility to command was to be reviewd" , when I pointed out that the DC6 had scrubbed I was told,"thats different, he has pasengers" , next action was to hand the phone to the DCA inspector who was in the building, problem solved. One Sock, this is just a single example of what happens in many outfits without a seniority system which prevents idiots like this from putting presure on pilots, I wont even go into what Ive seen in corporate! And by the way,I did move on to a company with a seniority system, and yes I went to the right seat, and was glad to do so given my previous experience.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Afternoon L.I.S.

So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?

In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?

From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.

You did have a choice Sir.

[billy one sock]

Clunkdriver,

Good story,but if someone in an influential position is truly out to get you, surely a seniority system is not going to prevent you from getting the chop. It just means you will be chopped when your number comes up. Politics are a fact of life in any working environment.

[Lost in Saigon]

Good Afternoon L.I.S.

So maximum pension plan contribution is capped at 35 years as per the agreed contract provisions so do you propose one contributes over thirty five years at current contribution levels until they retire but disbursement is based on 35 years?

In addition, the 2% penalty is a "contractually" agreed item to make sure people go full term to collect their pension without penalties. Alternatively, shall the C.H.R.T. review this as "age" (wanting to go early) discrimination under the Charter?

From your post it is apparent from your answer you did not display the moral fibre to challenge this as you sat on the sidelines through your career.

You did have a choice Sir.


You make a lot of assumptions about me. I am just starting my career at Air Canada.(about 10 years in) Unlike you, I did not have the opportunity to start at a young age. Most of the pilots hired in the last 10-20 years are in the same position. We will never have 35 years of service and will continue to pay into the pension until the day we retire.

But I don't blame you for your myopic views. ACPA has been doing a good job of keeping the truth from the membership.

[clunckdriver]

LIS, I dont know where this "everybody was hired young" came from, sure wasnt on my intake, {In the first group after no hiring for fourteen years I seem to recal} I bought five years pension time back and still didnt get quite the full 35 in, however having kept the first wife Im doing OK!

[Lost in Saigon]

LIS, I dont know where this "everybody was hired young" came from, sure wasnt on my intake, {In the first group after no hiring for fourteen years I seem to recal} I bought five years pension time back and still didnt get quite the full 35 in, however having kept the first wife Im doing OK!


The Air Canada pension was designed for pilots who reach 35 years of service. With your military time, you were an exception rather than the rule. As time goes on, fewer and fewer pilots will meet that magic 35 year mark. For pilots hired today it will be almost impossible to reach 35 years of service. Big changes are in order, and working past 60 is a good start.

[clunckdriver]

LIS, I dont think any on my intake made the full 35 years, I base this on the fact that the only young guy died at about 50 years old and all but three retired ahead of me and those three were right behind me on the way out, whats worth a thought or two is the mortality rate of the retirees, my course reunion I think would fit in a phone booth,. {Any day above ground is a good one!}

[Lost in Saigon]

Clunk, what year did you retire? You may find out that today's retirees are living longer than ever thanks to the miracles of modern medicine and healthier living.

My father started working in 1944.(no, he's not a pilot) He took an early retirement package at age 61 and has been living on a Defined Benefits pension now for 26 years. He is currently 87 and in perfect health.

In the future, we could have some retirees living to be 100 or more and being a drain on the pension plan. Letting pilots work past 60 will be one way to deal with this.

[a330pilotcanada]

Good Afternoon L.I.S.

Just so you know I did not retire with 35 years as I joined late due to "myopia" which in a funny way validates your comment. Ah ten years in so why are you not getting involved here? Afraid of making you views known in a public venue?

A union whether being C.A.L.P.A., A.C.P.A., or A.L.P.A. is as only good as its membership so get off your butt and contribute. If people are not receptive to your views educate them from the inside not by having it forced on by an outside agency. ]Still waiting for your points on the 2% penalty, capping point on pension at 35 years, contributions for those going past 35 years of service, disbursement level cap, legal teams from the company and union going over the legal implications of the contract, I know of an abundance of military types who took advantage of the buyback rule so it is ok to defer to "Clunk Drivers" knowledge not to challenge him as he lived it you did not.

I would be remiss in saying that I have done some volunteer work for both unions very small stuff compared to WAWCON, Negotiating etc I found it took a lot of time, very tiring but rewarding try it you might have a different perspective.

[warmkiter]

if you dont have any...

Its the only way to prevent a race to the bottom. Strict selection to get employed and a seniority system to prevent anybody to take a shortcut and bypass your fellow pilots.

Offcourse this sucks for the guys who are not flying for a major airline. But that has usually a reason and that is not the seniority system.

[publius]

767-300ER..........Perfectly said! FP = Fly Past?

It is very amusing to listen to the FP60 cabal rant about how ACPA is getting hammered every time it turns around...

It is amusing to read the revisionist history by a few that claim this all would have be averted had the retirement age been raised to 65 when a few demanded this.... right, and then some poor, recently turned 66 pilot would have wandered to the CHRT and claim that his "rights" have been infringed...

PS... As far as I can tell, the FP60 cabal have only won the reinstatement of 2 pilots on a non-precedent basis, failed to get a cease and desist order, lost a Judicial Review of CHRT ruling for VK, and now we await a second review of the VK with respect of the BFOR....and a Federal Court of Appeal hearing....and a parliamentary loss of the legislation....

While you guys wait for the next couple of years, enjoy your retirement....

[a330pilotcanada]

I do not want to bring this one up to the top as there a lot of aviation news items right now but I will clarify the F.P.

What F.P. stands for is fly past 60 sometimes you will see the F.P. or fly till you die or other variations.

There is a web site dedicated for it if you Google fly past 60 you will find it. I will not comment on it as I have not visited the web site as I have no need to avail myself of this information

It was set up by one of Air Canada's retired pilots who also practices law in CYWG.

[STOLskunkworks]

I believe strongly that mandatory retirement at age 60 should be abolished.

It is contrary to the persons basic human rights not to be discriminated against based on age. Yes if the guy is doing long haul and can not stay awake or starts to fail sim rides then a respectful mandatory retirement would be the logical conclusion. I do believe that safety is paramount.

But most of those who are claiming to be happy to retire at 60 do not live in the reality that many of us are looking at; the avg new hire age is about 35 at Air Canada and climbing so many of us are looking at starting our 37k$ salary at at Air Canada in our late 30's (try raising a family on that in Toronto). Please at least give me a fighting chance of making my way up the pay scale and earning a descent retirement the fact is that some of us might need to work past 60 to accomplish this.

Respectfully submitted.

[publius]

Canada is a Democratic country. The Air Canada Pilots Assocoation exists within this jurisdiction. When polled, as I understand, the AC pilots voted 82% in favor of continuing with their Negotiated Contract which mandates retirement at age 60. If you do not concur and choose to work for AC then you too will have a voice and a vote. If you do not concur, I would suggest you look at many of the other carriers in Canada that would better suit your immediate desire to work to +65.

[Lost in Saigon]

If the Air Canada pilots decided to have a vote to restrict the hiring or progression of women or minorities, would that be OK with you?

Canada may be a democratic country but THANK GOD we also have basic human rights to protect us from people who would be in favour of majority mob rules.

[clunckdriver]

LIS, Your God or my God have nothing to do with this, I think the poster boy who ranted on to the media about not wanting leave as he wished to keep his money rolling in and all the other goodies , is in fact the most honest of all the bunch who want to stay at the top till Hell doth freeze over, at least he doesnt wrap his greed in phoney "Human Rights" crap, unlike some of the FP60 group.There are very valid reasons that many may have to keep going after 60, but spare us the human rights stuff, its been beaten to death over the last few years!

[J.O.]

It's the appearance of hypocrisy that has so many people upset. When you dine on the fruit of the poisonous tree and then complain about it later, you'll have a hard time winning sympathy, whether or not human rights are on your side. Face it, a slave owner would not be the best person to campaign for the abolition of slavery. Anyone who has advanced up the seniority and pay ladder on the backs of hundreds of "at 60" retirees now finds themselves in the same predicament. The best way to fix this is to set a date in the future that everyone can plan for.