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JABBARA
22nd Mar 2011, 20:00
Hello Folks

According to EU OPS 1 or any relevant regulation, do you know how many QRH is required to be carried on board?

If this is a Airplane Type required matter, then I am specifying my question:
How many QRH is required to be carried on Airbus FBW family?

Thanks in advance

9.G
22nd Mar 2011, 22:01
The answer is 2. QRH is part of the aircraft library not the equipment! :ok:

JABBARA
22nd Mar 2011, 22:34
9 G

Thank you for your answer,

Obviously QRH is not a part in MEL items. What I mean with "Type", e.g. A 330, which has ECAM, may require less number of QRH than other conventional types.

Well, in my previous company we used to carry "2" QRHs, but here in the new now only "1" (Stiil EU OPS/JAR OPS referred). I am just trying to proove "2" needed, but no reference yet.

Do you have any refernce for this?

Thanks

grounded27
22nd Mar 2011, 23:10
A QRH is a convienance doccument, unless specified otherwise by your carrier 0 required, it abbreviates the other aircraft operating manuals that are required.

9.G
22nd Mar 2011, 23:11
The content of the aircraft library is part of the certification process thus it should be listed in the content of the aircraft's library as per AOC. Look up the certification requirements of the a/c type in particular which docs does it include. :ok: I don't have the reference ad hoc there, sorry!

grounded27
22nd Mar 2011, 23:16
The aircraft library is dictated by your CAA, this list is usually well published as required by your CAA.

9.G
22nd Mar 2011, 23:41
OK, here is an excerpt from the CS 25
Other Sources of Procedures Information. The flight crew of large transport category aeroplanes typically use other sources of operating procedures information other than the AFM. Examples of other sources of operating procedures information include manufacturer- or operator- produced operating manuals, Quick Reference Handbooks (QRH), System Pilot’s Guides and Emergency or Abnormal Checklists. For these aeroplanes, items such as cockpit checklists, systems descriptions, and the associated normal procedures should not be presented in the AFM if they are provided in other documents acceptable to the Agency. Normal procedures that are necessary for safe operation should be presented in the AFM, but the remaining normal procedures should be placed in the manufacturer produced FCOM (or other acceptable sources of operating procedures information). The non-normal procedures section of the AFM for these types of aeroplanes should include, as a minimum, procedures dictated by the aeroplane’s system and failure modes, and may also include those emergency procedures listed in paragraph 6.c(5) of this AMC. Whenever procedures are provided in another source rather than the AFM, a statement should be placed in the appropriate procedures section of the AFM referencing where the detailed procedures information can be found. Airbus clearly prescribes the priorities as ECAM, QRH and if time permits FCOM. Also bear in mind that OEBs when affected by ECAM refer to QRH and as airbus defines the roles to alter as PF/PNF each crew member must have a access to it instantly. :ok:

grounded27
22nd Mar 2011, 23:51
Airbus clearly prescribes the priorities as ECAM, QRH and if time permits FCOM. Also bear in mind that OEBs when affected by ECAM refer to QRH and as airbus defines the roles to alter as PF/PNF each crew member must have a access to it instantly. :ok:

Each airline has a doccument list, at mine the QRH (even on Airbus) is not required, but listed. FCOM allways is.

aviatorhi
22nd Mar 2011, 23:51
Ok so if we put it in the middle that's 1 "required".

I've only flown at 1 airline that had a QRH anyway, everywhere else we just used the manual/memory.

9.G
22nd Mar 2011, 23:58
G27, I doubt you've read FCOM1 of airbus coz it clearly states:
ORGANIZATION OF THE MANUAL

FOREWORD
This manual complements the approved Flight Manual. Airbus has attempted to ensure that the data contained in this manual agrees with the data in the Flight Manual. If there is any disagreement, the Flight Manual is the final authority.

COMMENTS — QUESTIONS — SUGGESTIONS
All manual holders and users are encouraged to submit any Flight Crew Operating Manual questions and suggestions to :

CONTENT

The Flight Crew Operating Manual (FCOM), and the associated Quick Reference Handbook (QRH), are developed specifically for flight crews, in order to provide them with all of the necessary information about the operational, technical, procedural, and performance characteristics that are required for the safe and efficient aircraft operation. These manuals take into account all of the operational procedures to be applied during normal and abnormal/emergency situations that may occur on ground or in flight. :ok:

grounded27
23rd Mar 2011, 05:17
You have no clear understanding of what an opspec is and the governance in the doccuments that follow, per fleet under it. Ours does not require a QRH to be onboard for dispach. Read your reference, no where does it say any of these manuals have to be onboard for flight..

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 07:16
G27, sorry mate but you're grounded. It's been proven FCOMs and QRH are essential part of certification and constitute airworthness of the a/c. Here's what Eu Ops says about it:
- OPS 1.290 - Flight preparation

(a) An operator shall ensure that an operational flight plan is completed for each intended flight. (b) The commander shall not commence a flight unless he/she is satisfied that: 1. the aeroplane is airworthy; 2. the aeroplane is not operated contrary to the provision of the configuration deviation list (CDL); 3. the instruments and equipment required for the flight to be conducted, in accordance with Subparts K and L, are available; 4. the instruments and equipment are in operable condition except as provided in the MEL; 5. those parts of the operations manual which are required for the conduct of the flight are available; 6. the documents, additional information and forms required to be available by EU - OPS 1.125 and EU - OPS 1.135 are on board;
Why else would all those airlines spend money and equip their aircrafts with the library? Come on mate, think about it. :ok:

aviatorhi
23rd Mar 2011, 08:22
What about aircraft which were certified without a QRH at all, the 727 for instance (I believe that's mine and "Grounded's" common turf)?

In the text that you quoted there 9.G you'll notice that the Flight Manual 'reigns supreme' amongst all other manuals, as such it should technically be the only manual that is "required" for flight, based on the information in the "FOREWORD".

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 10:18
Well, then you're both grounded I'm afraid. Here's what AFM of airbus says about the reigns supreme of AFM:
Ident.: GEN-INTR-00005876.0001001 / 26 NOV 09 EASA APPROVED Criteria: A330
This Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) is a reference document published in English. It is not established as an operational document to be used directly by the crew in flight. Flight crew documents available in flight must include an Operational Manual, with appropriate contents and language as required by the National Regulations.
Note: Any Flight Crew Operating Manual (FCOM) reference within the AFM must be considered as advisory information, the FCOM being a non approved document.This AFM is specific to a given certified aircraft model, which is specified in the Heading Approbation Documentary Unit (Refer to APPRO-HEAD Heading Approbation) and Approval Reference Documentary Unit (Refer to APPRO-ENV Approval Reference) of this AFM. It was approved by the Direction Générale de l'Aviation Civile (DGAC) prior to 28 September 2003 and is since approved by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). When applicable, it is approved by the EASA on behalf and according to the requirements of the importing Authority, e.g. the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) for US registered aircraft. Perhaps Boeing is different but not airbus coz it's been written by lawyers not pilots.:ok:

JABBARA
23rd Mar 2011, 10:33
Thank you for all answers,

That is sure at least 1 QRH should be on board, but it is still not clear the 2nd is required.

Anyway, I should also state the origin of this thread, maybe it helps.

During the SAFA inspection of one of the company (JAR) airplane in a JAR member country, absence of second QRH is recorded as findings. That`s why this discussion is started whether the 2nd QRH is really required.


Thank you

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 10:44
JABBARA, I was gonna say one inspection by the authorities and the issue is quickly resolved. Sorry, as usual, the thread drifted away from the original question. I'll try to look up the had floor reference but preliminary I can think of the approved content of the aircraft's documentation on board. Have a look at the aircraft docs folder where AOC, OPS specs etc are to be found.:ok:

aviatorhi
23rd Mar 2011, 10:50
In which case Airbii's lawyers are worth as much as Arbii (not a whole lot in my book).

FOREWORD
This manual complements the approved Flight Manual. Airbus has attempted to ensure that the data contained in this manual agrees with the data in the Flight Manual. If there is any disagreement, the Flight Manual is the final authority.

This Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) is a reference document published in English. It is not established as an operational document to be used directly by the crew in flight.

So on the one hand they're saying that it is the final authority, except that it's not an established document to be used in flight. Which is it Airbus?

It would seem the ultimate answer to the question is the minimum number as prescribed by the manufacturer, which is either one or none.

smallfry
23rd Mar 2011, 11:08
In my company its One. The theory is that you cant both be reading the QRH anyway.. Somebody has to 'fly the plane'. Two pilots heads down when airborne is a No no in our SOPs.
So as long as PNF can reach it....

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 12:04
aviatorhi, it's simple once understood. AFM is approved manual- NOT to be used in flight. FCOM & QRH aren't approved but suplemental to AFM TO BE USED in flight according to airbus. The reasons behind are, firstly, to be able to sell the aircrafts in ''raw conditions'' ready for certification by national authorities, secondly, to escape liability. Once again it's written by lawyers not for pilots.:ok: Back to the question 1 or 2? :ok:

P.S. consequently both AFM & FCOMs+ QRH are carried on board.

aviatorhi
23rd Mar 2011, 12:09
If something is the final authority then it better be onboard the airplane in flight, otherwise it's completley and utterly illogical. However Airbus chooses to structure their manual requirments is up to them, and I hope to never have to learn, but that would dictate that the minimum required on board is based on the certification of the aircraft, hence;

The correct answer is 0 or 1. I wonder how you're gonna go about telling me that an aircraft which was certified without a QRH suddenly requires a QRH. As mentioned 2 posts back only the PNF should really need a QRH available to them, don't see a need for 2 onboard in that case.

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 12:20
It's simple mate the role can be altered any time thus PF can become PNF in split of the second. Bear in mind that being PF doesn't mean being in charge, PIC is always in command and can take controls whenever deemed necessary. Now picture this: F/O is PF, he/she takes off and for whatever reason let it be technical or otherwise the PIC decides or has to take controls and there's a need to perform checklist in QRH. Now what? You stepped onto a slippery ground, how will you pass the QRH to the F/O and fly at the same time. Remember, one has to be on controls at all times. Big deal, probably not, big loophole to be held liable, probably yes. :ok:

aviatorhi
23rd Mar 2011, 12:26
If the QRH is kept within easy reach of both crewmembers (since we're gonna be swiss watch pilots about this) then only one is required.

However, I shudder to think that people are so concerned that passing a small pamphlet in flight may cause the aircraft to crash. 0 or 1, final answer. :ok::ok::ok:

9.G
23rd Mar 2011, 12:40
aviatorhi, once again mate there's assigned place for QRH on the flight deck and it's being the side pocket on each pilot's side. You may think of it as NO BIG DEAL but I would like to see you do it in the heat of the battle. If it was meant to be within easy reach for both pilots then the storage place would be somewhere in in the middle, well IT'S NOT and there's a reason behind.:ok:

I didn't bring in SMOKE into the play yet. Once the flight deck is filled with smoke and you donned the masks struggling to see the instruments well good luck with looking for QRH and passing it across trying to perform procedure like smoke removal.

aviatorhi
23rd Mar 2011, 12:53
You're right, I'm gonna stay home from now on and never get on an airplane again, there's just too many things that can go wrong all based on a sheet of paper, it's terrifying. :}

clunckdriver
24th Mar 2011, 12:33
Its simple! Acording to Transport Canada when the paper in the flight deck equals the Zero Fuel Weight of the aircraft then ite safe to fly.I just cant belive the crap on this thread!

clunckdriver
24th Mar 2011, 14:58
Upper Air, after 54 years dealing with TC I can assure you that this is the case, which might having something to do with their prang rate, so bloody involved in paper work they have a history of little foul ups, such as forgetting to lower the gear whilst landing,besides I just cant resist getting in a dig at the "Aces" staffing our regulator, sorry about the drift!

oceancrosser
24th Mar 2011, 15:03
aviatorhi, it's simple once understood. AFM is approved manual- NOT to be used in flight. FCOM & QRH aren't approved but suplemental to AFM TO BE USED in flight according to airbus. The reasons behind are, firstly, to be able to sell the aircrafts in ''raw conditions'' ready for certification by national authorities, secondly, to escape liability. Once again it's written by lawyers not for pilots. Back to the question 1 or 2?

I was taught in ground school as a young pilot, that "no sane pilot ever looks in the Flight Manual". I have adhered religously to that. :}

Denti
24th Mar 2011, 15:05
Library as in paper library? You really lug paper around on your flightdecks still? No paper required at all anymore, we do get QRHs provided as convenience items though, but they are not required in paper form anymore. Not to mention FCOMs or AFMs, those are long gone.

Of course, the EFBs hold all the information as well, but they are pretty error-prone (running on windows xp) and might get dark very fast once their electrical supply is cut off.

aviatorhi
25th Mar 2011, 00:58
I am sorry that you may miss some great flying by the world`s greatest professionals

Don't be, I enjoy flying a 3 holer into places most haven't heard of, but I have to wonder, "greatest professionals", really?

Based on what I've read in this thread seems more like "learned behavior" to me, or "group think".

9.G
25th Mar 2011, 15:05
we do get QRHs provided as convenience items though really? Denti, aviation is run by bean counters and lawyers nowadays, with the barrel hitting 100 USD I suggest you forget the word convenience ASAP. Only legal requirements matter, mate. Get used to it.:ok:

grounded27
25th Mar 2011, 17:11
Really? I suggest you forget the word convenience ASAP. Only legal requirements matter, mate. Get used to it.

My company uses the verbiage required and desired in a legal document called the GMM that lists the aircraft library. It is amazing how many documents are just "desired". But I will say that an all fleet's Boeing, MDC and Airbus one QRH is required. You have a narrow minded attitude and I had mixed feelings about replying to your rubbish.

Bottom line is Boeing or MDC may have never suggested a QRH for aircraft like the DC-10 or B727 so there may be many operators out there today operating without a QRH. As I have heard in this thread Airbus is big on them.

I would give the advice to anyone who has a question like this to ask you friendly AMT/AME. I am sure a GMM or document prescribed by your CAA that is similar to it will reveal all the documents that are required to be in the cockpit of your aircraft.

9.G
25th Mar 2011, 23:03
G27, reference please? No reference, no discussion. All I know, with my narrow mind, is that I haven't seen not a single operator, including some of the worst low cost, operating with 1 QRH on airbus, regardless LPC or not. Why the hell would the inspector write it up then? All the rest is up to your imagination mate.:ok:

aviatorhi
25th Mar 2011, 23:09
9.G, because inspectors are as narrow minded as you are, had one try to write me up for flying under VFR in a 121 airplane (commercial operation in the US), he said "it's shocking you did that, it's illegal, it can't be done", until he was proven wrong by his own office and shown to be what a bufoon he really was. If you're entire basis for argument is that it must be so because an inspector said so then "All the rest is up to your imagination mate.:ok:"

9.G
25th Mar 2011, 23:28
aviatorhi, keep the emotions aside mate. Let's keep it simple, shall we?

You say on the airbus 1 QNH is required.
I say on the airbus 2 QNH are required.

It's a word against word. Gimme the reference and I'll be happy to announce you're right. No further BS except reference, keep it objective. Can you do it?

THANK YOU.:ok:

ravfooty
26th Mar 2011, 12:18
Airbus obviously think 1 QRH - every new Airbus we have taken delivery of comes with just one QRH for the delivery flight.
We then take it off and replace with two of our customised QRH's on arrival at base :)

aviatorhi
26th Mar 2011, 14:11
9.G

I'm not gonna go around unproving things which haven't been proven in the first place. You have failed to provide reference where it is explicitly noted that two are required, it is only said that a QRH is required onboard the aircraft. When you provide the appropriate reference for two being required then my argument of "as specified in the type certification of the aircraft" will still hold true. The fact of the matter is for all your detailed examples from the Airbus AFM, AOM or whatever manual you provide there has not been an explicit statement of two being required and in each case the QRH is referred to in the singular. :ok:

Now I'm gonna go beat my head against a wall because that might actually be more productive than arguing with CMLs. :ugh:

9.G
26th Mar 2011, 16:19
aviatorhi, none of us has provided the prove for either of statements thus leaving us with the deductive logic and historical values. So far the odds are against the statement of 1 QRH is required for obvious reason and pro 2 QRHs on airbus fleet. Once again, prove me wrong and I have no problems to admit of being wrong. We then take it off and replace with two of our customised QRH's on arrival at base why would anyone do that?:ok:

grounded27
26th Mar 2011, 21:08
Please quit feeding the troll who lives in dreamland (paradise), I regret providing an argument for him to put in one end then splatter out the other in the first place.

aviatorhi
27th Mar 2011, 00:35
Please quit feeding the troll who lives in dreamland (paradise), I regret providing an argument for him to put in one end then splatter out the other in the first place.

When you're right, you're right. I just wish the "Children of the Magenta Line" would go play somewhere else.

9.G
28th Mar 2011, 01:55
jabbara, you might wanna check out the 10th airbus training symposium, going digital project for FCOM & QRH if you have access to that and don't listen to the dilettantes. :ok: This is for orientation. As you know EU OPS speaks of operational manuals dividing it in parts A,B,C,D. B being the aircrafts operational manuals comprising of FCOM & QRH. Here's the regulatory requirement: (EU-OPS 1.130)
Parts of the Operations Manual to be carried:
-Operations Policy Manual (Part A – General/Basic)
-Conduct of the flight ( Part-B FCOM, QRH)
etc...

EU-OPS 1.1040 - General Rules for Operations Manuals

An operator shall ensure that all operations personnel have easy access to a copy of each part of the Operations Manual, which is relevant to their duties. In addition, the operator shall supply crew members with a personal copy of, or sections from, Parts A and B of the Operations Manual as are relevant for their study.

JABBARA
28th Mar 2011, 22:45
9.G

Thank you for all replies.:ok:

Denti
29th Mar 2011, 04:09
Can be in electronic form though, paper is not required. Best device for documentation is actually the iPad which will be provided free for all pilots in my company although the documentation is of course available for download and on all company computers including the EFBs already. Seems there are still some perks out there ;)

V1... Ooops
29th Mar 2011, 04:21
Guys:

Do keep in mind that there may be two different sets of rules at play here - one being the certification rules, and the other being the operational rules.

These rules may differ, and as we all know, whichever rule is the more onerous will be the rule that governs.

An example of this (Part 23, not Part 25, only because I am more familiar with Part 23) are 19 seat twin turboprops. The cert rules often state that only one pilot is required, but the operational rules (for commercial operations) in just about every country of the world state that two pilots are required.

I recently finished writing an AFM for a 19 seat twin turboprop. There are three limitations published in the AFM that speak directly to manuals:

1) A copy of the AFM must be carried on board.
2) A copy of the Avionics System Pilot Guide must be carried on board.
3) If the aircraft is to be operated single pilot under IFR, a QRH must be carried on board (implies QRH is not required for two crew operation).

None of these three limitations state what form the document must be in. Although it is most probable that the operator will elect to carry paper (i.e. printed) copies, the limitations don't explicitly rule out carrying the documents in electronic form, either by way of the aircraft avionics system (documentation online), or by way of an EFB or, perhaps, even an iPad or similar.

In the end, it will be up to the regulator of the state of registry of the aircraft to determine how to interpret and apply those three certification limitations.

Michael