View Full Version : Air India Captain Arrested

13th Mar 2011, 10:57
Air India Captain JK Verma was arrested in DEL last night.

Flying with a DGCA issued licence, on the basis of forged exam mark-sheets submited to th DGCA.

13th Mar 2011, 12:25
Remind me never to fly with an Indian carrier....

13th Mar 2011, 13:04
You shall be reminded, soon enough. You won't wanna know the percentage of similar cheats.
I don't even dare to disclose the speculated number of "Captains" who should be shxtxng bricks now. Some folks in the know already said it depends on how serious DGCA is willing to get, most likely, a few more scapegoats will do the trick in calming the public.

P.S In India, ALL airline pilots, one day FO to Senior Captain, are Captains.

13th Mar 2011, 15:32
Break_Break said
I don't even dare to disclose the speculated number of "Captains" who should be shxtxng bricks now

Why not. You should disclose it so the public can get an idea of how serious the problem is in Indian aviation. ICAO should be coming down on them like a tonne of bricks. If other states were serious about aviation safety they would also ban all Indian registerers aircraft and all pilots who originally got an Indian ATPL until they can be verified that they actually have all passes in their subjects and their hours are correct. With the exception of some 3rd world countries and china (that's another story), most CAA's would charge you with fraud and take away your license for life if you attempted any stunts like this.
This industry really has turned to $h!t.

13th Mar 2011, 15:41

Totally agree. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

The Indian authorities are too busy trying to kick out the foreign pilots, who have bonafide verifiable licenses. To do this they have passed an imbecilic directive for the foreign licence holders to sit an initial, military medical examination. Most, if not all candidates are failing.

What utter folly.

Abbey Road
13th Mar 2011, 16:14
To do this they have passed an imbecilic directive for the foreign licence holders to sit an initial, military medical examination. Most, if not all candidates are failing. I wonder if the Indian Air Force have had a 'hand' in this? An attempt to preserve jobs for pilots leaving the IAF? Typical of the nepotism that goes on.

13th Mar 2011, 16:28
If other states were serious about aviation safety they would also ban all Indian registered aircraft and all pilots who originally got an Indian ATPL until they can be verified that they actually have all passes in their subjects and their hours are correct.

So lets say Middle East bans Indian Carriers and India Reciprocates, Who do you think would be at an bigger loss ? .. I know its Hypothetical.

The problem in India is the regulator itself. Absolute Bureaucracy with Obsolete Machinery. Until 2001, Civil Aviation Ministry and Department was an insignificant and uncared for branch of the Indian Government. There were only few players in the Industry of which only Air India, Indian Airlines, Jet Airways and Air Sahara were playing an significant role. The common man of India was not interested in any aspect of Civil Aviation as flying as an air passenger was beyond his reach. But post the open skies policy and liberalization of the Indian Skies and subsequent start up of Low Cost and Regional Carriers. Civil Aviation Department began to handle tasks and work loads which is well beyond its capacity. Even though the number of aircraft and passengers have increased exponentially and even as orders for hundreds of aircraft are made from the American and European Plane Makers, the age old mind set and the official work culture still remains of that of stone age.
Government of India must wake up the urgent demands of the Indian Civil Aviation Industry. Merely constructing Swanky terminals or merging airlines wouldnt help. The DGCA must immedeately wake up to the changes happening with the Global Civil Aviation Regulators. If necessary, ammend age old rules of 1937 to the needs of 2011 and beyond. Safely and Expeditiously must be the motto. There needs a big change in all the aspects from people who are in the tables of power to the crew examinations, licensing, medicals etc.
The pilot who got himself busted is merely an victim of the entire machinery.

13th Mar 2011, 16:43
A wee bit off thread.......
Of course, those at Gulf Air in the mid 90's will remember that their was a certain son of the ruler of Abu Dhabi who decided to become a pilot. On his return from Florida after completing his multi/IFR (and without any interview for the position of pilot as Daddy of course had a 25% interest in the airline) further training with GF was scheduled in Doha. On arrival at the sim, your man walked into the box and sat in the Left Seat. The instructor was mortified......what was he to do? Ask his highness that he might well have to sit in the Right Seat for just a little while at least to get the 'hang of things'. How disrespectful! Of course that would have jeopardized his job, so he said nothing. After loads and loads and loads of sim he was onto the line with the caveat that he was only allowed fly with 2 designated very Senior local Instructors.
This story was conveyed to me by expat Tony ( Instuctor) in the London Pub one afternoon. He was quite upset as he had just returned from DOH after just having completed a few days training with you know who. Tony explained that
he just could not fly a single-engine approach, so much so that Tony said that he even explained to boy wonder that he would place him on a Cavok 10 mile final and that he would fail the right hand engine. he then explained that all his highness would have to do is land and come to a full stop. I asked what happened and he said that your man had continually crashed just short of the threshold 30 deg off the RWY Heading AFTER having given him 10 try's. "I tried everything to give this guy a break, but in my conscience I just couldn't pass him, so I think it's the end for me." I asked, so where to from here and he said that they had sent Majid over (from Bahrain) to PASS him......and you think India's bad......same story, different DGCA!

13th Mar 2011, 17:57

Quite a Pub story. So why didn't his instructor just put him in a real big airplane and solo him if his daddy could afford it ?

13th Mar 2011, 18:20
Air India Captain Arrested

Probably for fixing the results in a cricket match.:eek:

13th Mar 2011, 18:50
I'm shocked...:eek: just shocked:eek: that is happening in such a country that's trailing the leading edge of technology. At least he had a current first class Air Force Medical:}!

13th Mar 2011, 19:03
Well if that Gulf Air story is true Ive never heard of it,and I was there at the time.All local pilots were given thorough training. Indeed I flew with the Emir of Qatar,s nephew on many trips when he was under training and he,like all the other trainees understood the requirements of formal basic and line training.
Perhaps "Tony" had a few too many beers !!

13th Mar 2011, 19:03
So, if there is any truth to these allegations, will we see any Indian carriers on the EU blacklist (http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air-ban/list_en.htm)some day soon?

13th Mar 2011, 19:34
Just where is the report in the local Indian newspapers?
IE: so far, no source confirmed.
A hoax, perhaps.:ooh:

Big Tudor
13th Mar 2011, 19:59
Seek and ye shall find 411A
Air India pilot arrested for forged papers - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Air-India-pilot-arrested-for-forged-papers/articleshow/7696702.cms)

13th Mar 2011, 20:10
spitoon, black list only comes into effect after a major disaster I would think. for as long as they're landing their planes on the strip foreseen for the purpose it's all right and hy-de-hoe...
usually there's first a serious accident and then a ban or restriction or whatever.

13th Mar 2011, 20:30
A411 wrote:
Just where is the report in the local Indian newspapers?
IE: so far, no source confirmed.
A hoax, perhaps.

Maybe A411 is a hoax himself...:ugh:

bugg smasher
13th Mar 2011, 21:07
Perhaps the names of the individuals involved should be withheld from this forum, until such time as all facts are known, and the official reports published.

13th Mar 2011, 21:43
A mate of mine is a widebody captain with a major Asian carrier. Two years ago now, he flew (heavy crew) with another captain, an Indian, who was a recently arrived DEC, supposedly from the airline I was then working for where he'd supposedly been a 777 captain.

My mate was so appalled with this "captain's" standard of operation, he asked me if I knew the man and whether he had maybe left my airline under a cloud.

I didn't know him, but checked the seniority list (current and old ones) just to make sure.

No such name, and I asked around among the trainers and checkies and no one had ever heard of him.

Many years ago now (20+), I did an interview sim. ride, where one of the other pilots being interviewed with me was an Indian A320 "captain". Long story short: he crashed the simulator (an A300) quite spectaculalry because he had no idea how to trim the aircraft after an engine failure.

I strongly suspect there's a very large Parker Pen factory somewhere in India.

14th Mar 2011, 00:12
I understand that Pprune is meant to be for RUMOUR. However, the implication is too unfair, for the majority of Indian pilot population. In any case, it won't be long before more are exposed.
Now we all know many Indian pilots will cry innocent, but for the last 10 years or so, there were just way too many over zealous young pilots who have been in a big rush to become the youngest achiever of every rank. And what is more disappointing, is the Airlines themselves are condoning it, or even to certain extent, encourages it so as to have a short term fix to their lack of qualified commercial pilots. Now, they will face the most dire consequence of all, paying with hopefully not, the pax's blood to solve this disgusting practice.
At least from what I told further, at least couple of recruitment agencies have temporarily delayed any submission of Indian licences for job application till this issue is resolved.
The following article was copied from another posting in South East Asia forum to further understand how the system works.
Pilots with fake licences getting conned themselves?
NEW DELHI: Fake commanders who fudged marksheets to get to the captain's seat may have been conned themselves. Here's how: co-pilots failing the exam to become commanders are routinely approached by touts with the promise of having their papers "re-evaluated" for the pass mark required.

And with the DGCA exam database being inaccessible to even its head office, verification is not possible at the time of submission.

Pilots cough up between Rs 5 lakh and Rs 7 lakh (sometimes as a bank draft) for a package deal — real marksheets with no reds and a Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) licence for commandership. But what the commanders do not realize is that the middlemen may after all be handing them fake marksheets that will show up when checked with the original database.

The double-con came to light when top aviation officials began probing licences on the directive of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation after a woman pilot repeatedly landing on the nosewheel was found to have forged a marksheet. "A number of industry people have told us middlemen involved in this racket ask the co-pilots to fill up forms for re-evaluation and even take bank drafts to make it look real," said an official connected with the probe. "They are learnt to ask for Rs 5-7 lakh for this task and then (for) getting a licence issued. Co-pilots see this as a foolproof way of doing an illegal thing."

But what pushes co-pilots to acquire an airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) by fraudulent means, paying a huge "fee" to boot? "By the time a co-pilot is eligible to become commander in terms of number of hours flown, his or her monthly salary is about Rs 2 lakh," said an official. "On becoming commander, the salary doubles to Rs 4 lakh. If someone is not able to pass the ATPL exam, the monetary loss is a whopping Rs 24 lakh annually. So it makes economic sense for such people to pay Rs 5-7 lakh and become a commander as the cost will be recovered in just four months."

What makes the job easier for the tout and his client alike is that the DGCA has no way of verifying the documents at the time of submission. Marksheets are issued to pilots from the Directorate General of Civil Aviation's central examination office in R K Puram, south Delhi. These have to be submitted, along with other documents, at the DGCA's head office opposite Safdarjung Airport.

The head office cannot cross-check the documents against the Directorate General of Civil Aviation database because the exam office computers are not part of the intra-network. Not by accident, though. Exam records were kept delinked to prevent hackers from getting through — now working to the benefit of those forging their papers to fly millions across the country and abroad.

Officials say checks will be put in place now, before licences are issued. "There were some cases where people submitted fake education degrees and we started verifying them with the universities. Now, we are devising way to cross-check the marksheets submitted for issuance of licences with original records. This will be done even if it means a delay of a couple of days in the licence process," said a senior official.

14th Mar 2011, 01:20
OK.....gotta get in here, I guess.

Hello DC-ATE, it appears that you have not posted on the forums for several weeks. Why not take a few moments to ask a question, help provide a solution or just engage in a debate with other members in any one of the forums?

Seems like a simple solution: don't allow any aircraft flown by Indian pilots to land in any other country.

Check Airman
14th Mar 2011, 01:39
I'm a CFI, and most of the students I see are from India. There seems to be a culture of "just pay to pass the exams". This exists not only with those who have attained their certificates, but also those who have just started their training.

They know once they go back to India, they will have to pay a certain amount of money to "clear the exams". They've already budgeted for that cost before their first solo.

That's not to say that they all do it. A few have told me that they have no intention of bribing anybody. However, it is more than a little concerning when people speak so casually about obtaining licenses illegally.

14th Mar 2011, 02:05
There are plenty of these type of Pilots in Emirates,Etihad,Qatar Airways,etc....:mad:

14th Mar 2011, 02:36
Aviation authorites in the real world need to step up to the plate. Obtain advance notice of Indian pilots flying into their countries. Contact the DGCA to verify the authenticity of the certificates of those airmen.

Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.

Cooperation is required by all authorities including the DGCA. If no cooperation on the part of the Indian carriers or the DGCA, the other countries should exercise their authority in banning fights from India entering their airspace.

Who knows... revised overfly permits should be explored too for the same reasons above.

Safe flying to the rest of us who follow the rules:ok:!

14th Mar 2011, 03:09
Heard this story from my Friends EX GF.Eventually the Sheikh was stopped by DGCAM Oman.:D

14th Mar 2011, 04:08
Eventually the Sheikh was stopped by DGCAM Oman...and the DGCA Oman, (P.S.) was very soon afterwards.... er... moved on to another job in Dubai with the UN, where he did a terrific job for quite a few years protecting the EK pilots from the worst excesses that EK management attempted to introduce. (Most of which have now been introduced now that he's gone.)

thos1n, if you never heard of the sheikh's shennanagins, you had a very protected life. He was occasionally in the habit of loading his Lamborghini in the cargo bay on the flight he was operating and then, on arrival, blithely announcing that he wouldn't be operating back, but extending his stay.

It got to the point where Gulf Air took to putting an FO on his flights as a passenger just in case he pulled this stunt. This came to a head when the good sheikh spotted an FO he knew amongst the passengers while taking a break mid flight and asked him, as you do, why he was on the flight. When the FO replied that he was on duty and there in case he, the sheikh, decided to extend his stay, the good sheikh hit the roof.

What's of particular interest is where he is now.

Wannabe Flyer
14th Mar 2011, 04:13
India may have 4000 'fake' pilots (http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/india-may-have-4000-fake-pilots-91398)

Yipee......... So in India roads might actually be safer than the skies!!!

14th Mar 2011, 04:23
captjns wroteAviation authorites in the real world need to step up to the plate. Obtain advance notice of Indian pilots flying into their countries. Contact the DGCA to verify the authenticity of the certificates of those airmen.

Routine SAFA inspections will not cut it as the potential risk to life in the air and on the ground will have been done by the time the aircraft parks on stand.

OK, so let's examine this solution to the Indian "fake" pilot problem slightly further. A measure such as the one you suggest will most likely elicit an equal , if not more high-handed response from the Indian DGCA. Imagine , the UAE GCAA asking EK to furnish all personal info of the EK pilots who operate the 160 odd weekly flights to India. Now, add EY, AA, FD, QR etc. etc. to the list and you get the picture.....

captjns, the Indian DGCA and the pilots in question are equally responsible for this mess.
I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam.:ugh: The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment.

Pilots who pay feed this corrupt system and have shamed themselves and the rest of us and brought dis-repute to the country. Your greed in quickly jumping over to the left seat with no consideration of the consequences has caused permanent damage to your and your colleagues reputation which will take years to correct.

Captjns, What is the solution then? Better late than never, I think . What the DGCA is doing now is good. Verify all the licensed pilots credentials thoroughly. Publicize , Arrest and disqualify those that have forged their way to get the licenses. Clean up the rot within and make examples public of the action taken. The new director seems to be on the right path but needs help from all quarters. It is an uphill battle, no doubt , but requires drastic action for any credibility to be restored.

Airlines also need to take a good look at themselves and see how their hiring/upgrade methods are done. Remember, it's not only about crewing the planes, it takes only one major accident to destroy your airline.

To watch the way we run this country with the scams, politicians, greed , red tape etc. etc. does get depressing at times. But, I am an eternal optimist and do believe in the power of our lethargic democracy .Like an old , run-down maruti 800 (car) , the country chugs along but it's in dire need of some major maintenance and we have the potential to do it right......

14th Mar 2011, 07:02
I agree Masalama, the aviation system within India is beyond antiquated.

On some issues, the unions are strong enough to convince their politicians, and courts to require the DGCA amend certain procedures, and requirements.

However, it would appear these same unions remain silent concerning airmen certification process as far as testing is concerned, the issue of the Assisted Takeoff and Landings.

On one India wants Indians to fly for their country's carriers. However Indias attitude is a direct hindrance towards their own desires.

On a daily basis, there articles concerning unqualified pilots are appearing in news papers in India, ie... Times of India, Hidu Times. It appears, on the surface, there is a clear and present danger that there are far more unqualified airmen acting as PIC then meets the eye.

It appears this is an increasing systemic problem coming to the surface. Perhaps other countries should consider scrutiny equal to that of Indonesia carriers and their pilots too.

Airlines establish or emphasize procedures when one or two err from the straight and narrow or find themselves in trouble.

Countries ban foreign carriers from there soil if their is evidence of violations of safety of operation too. This situation deserves attention by other countries as it is evident that malfeasance is afoot. I feel bad for those who may be put under undo scrutiny because of the few who were so arrogant to think that the regulations promulgated by the DGCA does not appy to them.

I'm sure Masalama, you'll agree that the general population both in the air and on the ground should not be exposed to undeserved risks at the hands of the likes of unqualified crews.

14th Mar 2011, 07:36
masalama.... I do and do not agree with some of what you have written. I do most certainly believe your desire to get things right is admirable.

I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam....

So, if the exams are too hard they should be made easier? I vehemently disagree with that. The JAA, NZ CAA and Oz CASA examinations are very hard to pass. (The FAA ATP is at the other end of the spectrum I must admit!) Chat to some pilots about the Oz CASA Instrument Rating exam or the JAA flight planning and loading... With pass marks only given for a result > 80% in the exam some study and sit them multiple times. But I'll guarantee they know their stuff.

Some things tested may be view as antiquated in today's airliner world yet the foundations of theory must be in place to appreciate the more sophisticated systems fail. Eg; if you can't grasp the concept of gyros then the requirements and needs for high latitude flying will also fail you. (Surprising how few people can calculate a 1:60 or even stay 1 step ahead of the FMC by calculating their own descent profile, let alone why passing overhead a DME it doesn't read 0 nm or appreciate a synoptic chart, Vmcg vs Vmcg, etc, etc....!!)

Perhaps the way the exams are sat needs to criticized more, rather than the exams themselves? Too true: when the system leaves itself open to corruption then it will be! (Eg the verbal exam).

If the requirement is for for a PhD in Aerodynamics or navigation via sextant, if that's what is, that's what is. CHEATING, LYING and as such committing FRAUD and the risking the lives of countless people is the main concern here. (And yes, exam question do need to be constantly reviewed to be kept relevant, but that is for a different thread i think and not what's being discussed here).

The skill and knowledge level at AI is below dangerous levels already. Just because the system is criminally negligent and corrupt as all hell as to how broken it is, doesn't mean it should be made easier. Fix the system, not lower the bar further.

it takes only one major accident to destroy your airline.

Ummm....Mangalore? Anyone remember that? Issues were raised, corruption and disgraceful levels of safety and training exposed.....and what?

The findings of the AI 744 engine fire would usually send shock waves down any legitimate and accountable civil aviation department, but at AI and the DGCA? HA! (Accident: Air India B744 at Mumbai on Sep 4th 2009, engine fire during taxi out (http://avherald.com/h?article=41f42c43/0000)).

AI and the entire DGCA needs to be swept and scrubbed in a vat of acid, a la KAL style. Shut the ba$ards down, kick them out of the US & JAA skies because very, very soon there will be a smoking hole and we'll all wonder how it happened and what could have been done to stop it. NO ONE WANTS IT TO COME TO THAT (again!).

They were threatened with Category 2 status yet narrowly avoided it. (The fact that they had orders for how many 777's and 787's??? - conspiracy theory, I know...)
Indian Aviation Indian airlines: Not safe enough? - eTurboNews.com (http://www.eturbonews.com/7451/indian-airlines-not-safe-enough)

14th Mar 2011, 08:11
The UK CAA ATPL examinations in the '70's really were not really relevant to aviation in general. A lot of it was nothing more than interesting but useless information. What the UK CAA wanted was for candidates to absorb a certain amount of information and then sit the examinations and pass. This was their system of weeding out. Anything less and they decided you were not fit, as far as they were concerned, to be in command of an aircraft with a total weight of more than 12,5000lbs.

14th Mar 2011, 11:04
For how long was it better than that??

I remember GF flying a serviceable aircraft into the sea at BAH.

14th Mar 2011, 11:20
yipee......... So in India roads might actually be safer than the skies!!!

i strongly disagree with this statement... wannabe......what about the million fake drivers.

lol ..i am a genuine ATPL holder in India..guys its not that bad .

14th Mar 2011, 11:34
A lot of Indian Pilots have been a victim of the system. Cheating has been in a number of ways:

1. You passed because you were son/daughter of an insider.--No one can burst this type--their papers are in order.

2. You passed theory exams because your father was a Politician or a bureaucrat--eg. Rahul Mahajan--no one can burst them, Police or CBI can investigate them but they will get a clean chit.

3. Those who cheated during theory exams and passed or who got a third person to impersonate them.--they can't be busted for past deeds as they are over and done with.

4. The guys who will suffer are those who paid touts, even thru Bank Drafts, the touts in turn colluded with minneal officials and gave them a Licence without even bothering to keep the examination section in the loop (or is it without sharing the loot). These guys are less guilty because most of them paid because either the were being deliberately failed by staff with vested interests or an examination system which tries to assess theoretical knowledge for discharge of a skill task. Moreover, DGCA has no Defined Syllabus, no Defined Reading Material, no defined question bank. They cheated to only keep up with the cheats from the first three groups. I may add that some in this group may be outright cheats and deserving punishment. The best way to identify them is to hold a FAIR Exam with a defined syllabus and publicly available question pool. (A publicly available question pool is OK because this is not a competitive exam, it is a measure of assessing whether the individual meets Minimum Knowledge standards.)

The use of Bank Drafts drawn in favour of DGCA points to the fact that there is a Fraud Bank Account in this name and at least one Bank Manager is also involved in allowing the looters to siphon off the money.

The whole system needs cleaning up.

Wannabe Flyer
14th Mar 2011, 11:43
Willfly............. Even the drivers with genuine licenses drive like idiots. They drive in the same manner as they stand in line pushing and jostling to get in front as if there were no tomorrow.

I however do agree with you that the Indian skies over the past 20 years have shown an improving trend (read fatal crashes and before we get into Mangalore lets take all airlines and all aircraft movements) and while incidents are there, it will be interesting to see them as a percentage of aircraft movements that has also grown exponentially over the past 2 decades.

That said there should be harsh treatment dealt out to those trying to skip or falsify. In the end corruption is bred by the common man in India who is willing to pay to jump the line. What would happen to corruption if we just said no...............sadly the person next to us would say yes and the cycle will carry on!

14th Mar 2011, 11:57
When the PM Leads the Corrupt-What do you do?
Any views?
Remember what happened to IIT Enginner Satyendra Dubey of National Highway Authority who complained under his own name to the then PM, Atal Behari Vajpayee, only to get guuned down.

14th Mar 2011, 12:02
This is best and deserves reproduction here:
"I blame the DGCA for having one of the most antiquated ATPL exam process. Pass percentages are abysmally low , the syllabus outdated and once the candidate clears the written , he/she has to appear for an oral exam.:ugh: The whole process is geared up for corrupt practices. Middlemen, touts, agents , facilitators ...call them what you want thrive in this environment."

14th Mar 2011, 12:48

You say that aviation in India has improved in the last 20 years, but, given the amount of info coming out regarding corruption and unqualified crews, I wonder if the safety record numbers are due more to the advances in technology- ie: making aircraft 'idiot-proof' and the increased use of automation--just a thought...

15th Mar 2011, 04:29
The cheats that have been exposed are the sacrificial lambs. The problem is so widespread, as corruption is a way of life in India. I'll lay my pension, if all the cheats were rounded up, civil aviation would grind to a halt over night, down there.

As mentioned previously, expose a few of the expendable to calm the masses then it's business as usual.

Yes I can sort of understand why they maybe tempted to cheat or pay bribes as going about something the honest way, in a country where corruption is pandemic,will get you nowhere. This is why it will take generations to wipe out, as corruption is like a cancer.

Wannabe Flyer
15th Mar 2011, 08:38
I wonder if the safety record numbers are due more to the advances in technology- ie: making aircraft 'idiot-proof' and the increased use of automation--just a thought...Very Very possible waddaworld. In the end technology has to be devised using the LCD formula. That is Lowest common denominator, but at the same time if you look at it holistically across the globe tragic accidents keep occurring for multiple reasons related to human error, may it be shoddy maintainence or untrained pilots, bad ATC management.

Based on this thought I have said that Indian skies have shown an improving trend over the past 20 years and I am sure do not rate at the bottom or even very near it for aviation safety.

Part of growing pains that hopefully get addressed.

15th Mar 2011, 09:01
These fake pilots may have forged their mark sheets but don't the airlines have any simulator checks and written exams for command conversion these days?

In the not very distant past, AI FOs listed for command conversion had fly under a check pilot for 200 plus hours and lots of simulator checks before being released. My dad used to be a check pilot and a DGCA examiner. He had flunked a lot of FOs including a few of his close friends.

Secondly, even if a airline is recruiting them directly as Captains, don't these fakies undergo simulator checks. It's very easy for a check pilot to catch these guys on a sim.

Fake pilots are only the tip of the ice berg. If you dig in, you'll come across fake AMEs and technicians.

15th Mar 2011, 09:19
"Fake Pilots" are really not fake pilots, they are people who generally know how to fly but have falsified their advanced certificates or paid bribes to persons in authority to do so. It seems that reading these threads this problem is endemic and the certification process is not transparent.

15th Mar 2011, 17:18
Delhi Police hot on fake marksheets' trail (http://www.indianexpress.com/news/delhi-police-hot-on-fake-marksheets-trail/762862/)

I regard this as simply a manifestation of the growing gap between a modernizing and internationalizing Indian private sector economy, and a public sector that is still rooted in a many decades old bureacracy based on patronage and seniority, and utterly without the mechanisms to reform to meet demands for performance and accountability. Having traveled through Indian airports since the 60s, I find now that that while the airports are generally more modern and polished (although check out GAU and IXR for remnants of the past), the antiquated governance systems remain unchanged.

16th Mar 2011, 05:42
When you get this from the "top", then you might have cause to speculate on what to expect from those further down the food chain in India...

Japan nuclear crisis: No nuclear accident in Fukushima, say Indian N-experts

Japan nuclear crisis: No nuclear accident in Fukushima, say Indian N-experts - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/japan-nuclear-crisis-no-nuclear-accident-in-fukushima-say-indian-n-experts/articleshow/7708194.cms)

16th Mar 2011, 17:13
"remind me never to fly with an indian carrier"

They have their bad apples like any region of the planet. Some Indian pilots are among some of the very best aviators I have ever flown with.

To get a flavor of the CRM atmosphere on an Indian crewed flight, try this clip:


Coireall (retired after 42 years in aviation, 4 of them spent in India)

18th Mar 2011, 11:24
not just india guys.... italy france, gb..... all the new atpl candidates are just memorizing the questions without having a clue on what a wing is.:mad:

capt barny
18th Mar 2011, 16:51
I would like to inform all that please do not go by what is being disclosed in the indian media. In India media is not responsible and there is no punishment to bring disrepute to a person in India.
I know one Captain who has been implicated in the false documents case even though he has all documents and licence in order. But just because he is participating in protesting against injustice done to him that he is falsely being implicated by the CMD of the company to bring him disrepute and have ground to terminate his services even though there is no case against him.
There may be a few black sheep, but its very very few.

White Knight
18th Mar 2011, 19:16
There are plenty of these type of Pilots in Emirates,Etihad,Qatar Airways,etc....

Not sure about EY or QR but the recruitment guys at EK are VERY THOROUGH in background checks - and I can't say I've flown with a Parker45 pilot at EK:= In over 8 years by the way:rolleyes:

18th Mar 2011, 20:17
I just don't ge the point of post 45 other than what a great advert for Kingfisher:rolleyes: it is.

Can someone help me out here... what was the point of that. What does that have to do with the basic topic of thread. What that one of the captains arrested?

I thought the wet t-shirt contest. filmed in April, 1998, that was performed on Falcon Air, A former Miami based airline, was far better than the one in post 54.

Check it out... it's someplace on YOU TUBE. Now that was great CRM:ok:!

19th Mar 2011, 03:52
India is a strange country-here the pilot is arrested for fake mark sheet but no action is taken against those who work the Goverment and throgh their sins of ommission and commission issues the fake Licences.
The Pilot pays them (DGCA) Rs. 5000/- for screening his licence application and issue of a licence. The Pilot also pays Rs. 5000/- for every rating or aircraft he wants endorsed on the licence. After this the DGCA takes months to issue the licence and in the process freqently asks for various irrelevant certificates and papers. Yet, if the DGCA doesn't perform the due deligence who is to blame?
The DGCA should pay damages to the arrested Pilots.
Finally, how did the Airlines accept these fake pilots in their ranks? Are these pilots only paper fake and skill competent.

19th Mar 2011, 05:37
Excuse me Jetwins... I need to know where you are coming from.

You have a group of arrogant people who did not follow the rules. Knowingly it would be an illegal act. These illegals bribed the DGCA so they could gain access to the cockpit of an airliner carrying upwards of 400 innocent passengers. Now mind you, these innocents paid money for safe conduct of passage from India to where ever under the care custody and control of individuals to be properly certified in the regulations promulgated by the Indian DGCA. Well as we all know, these frauds are caught.

Who knows how many more dangerous uncertified fraudulent crewmembers there are out there. Does the Indian Government know who many illegal uncertified individuals are operating aircraft beyond the borders of India?

And you, Jetwins, think these disgusting pigs should be compensated:eek:!?!?!:eek: How about the innocent public who's lives were placed in potential danger by such irresponsible behavior.

I have to tell you Jetwins, this goes way beyond childish impish behavior... as these culprits are criminals.

On the surface it appears (a) the Indian Government has no control of what goes within their own ranks; (b) Corruption is apparent all the way up within the higher ranks within the Indian Government; or (c) they, the government do have a pair of balls between the lot of them and prosecute all involved in this scam from the alleged pilots up to and including the DGCA itself. Any combination of the choice can apply.

The airlines have relied in the past to ensure that there is oversight within their own ranks. Well that system is not working. This is not just within aviation but all other industries where regulation apply as well.

The airlines themselves need to conduct an internal audit. They need to pay a visit to the DGCA to verify that all pilots amongst their own ranks are valid. Even the Insurers need to get involved concerning this matter. If life is lost at the hands of one of these illegals, then the insurance companies can walk away from the claim unscathed.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again... other countries need to take note and scrutiny as they have with other nations concerning safety of operations within their own airspace.

19th Mar 2011, 09:36
From avindia ******** com/2011/03/read-this-dgca.html

Seven years ago, TEHELKA had revealed the shocking state of pilot training in India (Captain Peril, 18 December 2004). The year-long investigation established that norms for obtaining a flying licence are so blatantly flouted that an unlimited number of flying hours can be logged entirely on paper, the theory exam can be passed and the stringent medical requirements cleared without the actual candidate appearing for them.

A team of TEHELKA reporters (Kumar Baadal, Aman Khanna) was able to obtain a student pilot’s licence (SPL) after clearing the medical check-up but without appearing for the requisite oral examination or the cockpit test. More shockingly, beginning the process that culminates in the commercial pilot’s licence (CPL), TEHELKA was able to log in 10 flying hours without ever getting off the ground.

The CPL entitles the licence holder to immediately begin flying as a co-pilot. The investigations also established that the verification procedures can easily be circumvented and the licence can be issued to just about anyone.

Flying clubs in the country lie at the heart of this scandal. The team met the chief flying instructor of the Northern India Flying Club (NIFC), Patiala, on 21 November 2003. For a bribe, Captain SS Kang was willing to get an SPL issued after an ‘oral’ test, log 10 non-existent flying hours and get the CPL issued without the requisite flying hours through his contacts in the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA).

19/03/11 Tehelka.

19th Mar 2011, 14:07
This is one of the worst kept secrets in indian aviation . I started my flying in india and finshed it in usa . Training standards are poor in indian flying schools and they are the training ground for this kind S#$t . Knowledge tests being fugded but the scariest thing is no student doing training in india ever almost ever fails a checkride ( which is final filter )
Thank god Indian flying schools take so much time and are so shitty most indians tarinees go abroad.

To my western colleagues.. most indian pilots especially in the Private airlines have good standards but if we expect reform in indian aviation pressure has to come from ICAO, IATA etc..
By the way our airline had rejected quite a few expats with fuddy duddy ratings/hours with FAA and even JAR licenses....so the rest of the world is not as clean as u might think

19th Mar 2011, 14:59
I would have to disagree with you Jet_737ng regarding your comment about so-called fuddy duddy FAA or JAR ratings. Sounds more like sour grapes to me.

EASA along with membered states along with the FAA maintain rather high standards as far as records are concerned. The DGCA along with other foreign countries perform their own records checks with aviation authorities of airmen wishing to fly in their countries.

With that being said pilots perporting to have FAA or JAR certificate are not as apt to commit a fraud with a potential employer as perhaps a pilot from another country:rolleyes: which has recently been in the news.

19th Mar 2011, 15:24
i heard of a mexican b777 captain with air india who faked his hours on the 777 as to get in... i
in korean air he was flying the 737. then he did a 777 on his own behalf but faked the hours to 500 as to get in...

if this is true? dont know 100% but then again it is a rumours network and air india can check on him..

too easy to fake logbooks and too many of those guys around, taking away the jobs of the honest pilots...

homesick rae
19th Mar 2011, 15:27
Then there was Anthony Abrahams in Dubai 1991, trying to start his own airline based out of FUJ - F.27s. He used to walk around, almost everyday, in his uniform, even popping into Jules Bar, epaulettes and all, to have a pint. Claimed he used to fly for BCal, yet was lost in the cockpit of a Duchess. Conned lots of people but, thankfully, he never got airborne and he then tried again, I believe, with a freight operation into Pakistan - again failed. Nobody on here seems to know about this joker, which surprises me, but he was decalred bankrupt in the UK several years ago.



19th Mar 2011, 16:15
So I guess this all BS then.
Fake Swedish pilot Thomas Salme flies Air One jets for 13 years | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1279083/Fake-Swedish-pilot-Thomas-Salme-flies-Air-One-jets-13-years.html)

Get Real. This stuff happens everywhere. To a greater extent in other parts of the world, but corruption is a global epidemic and has existed for as long as greed has. Europe is built on it. Get off your high horse.

Samba Anaconda
19th Mar 2011, 18:16
i heard of a mexican b777 captain with air india who faked his hours on the 777 as to get in... i
in korean air he was flying the 737. then he did a 777 on his own behalf but faked the hours to 500 as to get in...

if this is true? dont know 100% but then again it is a rumours network and air india can check on him..

All very true I too heard about it. The scary thing is that there are still many of those.

19th Mar 2011, 19:10
tip of the iceberg or what ever you may want to call it....

I am super impressed with what ever DGCA is doing to clean up the system....they way i look at it ...its probably the revolution that we were waiting for....

DGCA screwed up big i agree....but the effort its taking to make up is an eye opener....i have stood in line in the hot sun outside dgca with 50 more people many times to fill forms etc......

The whole boom situation went bonkers ....every one made money , DGCA , flying schools india / phillipines get your cpl in 2 months in the 320 cockpit in 3 months, medical doctors class 2 , corrupt CFIs in india, RT examiners /agents , ground school instructors , bookstores, back to DGCA ...and now airlines charging 20k for an exam * 4000 candidates ...fake pilots ofcourse.

The only people who didnt make money were the ones in those lines.

You have to actually meet these people in person to believe the amount of attitude they have , they say anything and everything under the sun without realizing that one day they are going to be on national TV or jail.

Hats off to the entire team of DGCA to bring out this change , i cant believe that a government body is making this level of effort to clean up the system.Thats what you do when shit hits the roof!!!!!

I hope other departments like the police , banks , and so so many more learn a lesson and be ready to face similar situation......

finally i can consider paying tax !!!!

19th Mar 2011, 22:41
SpiceJet sacks 2 pilots for fudging flying hours

NEW DELHI: The fake pilot racket is fast assuming worrying proportions. On Friday, low cost carrier SpiceJet sacked two pilots — captain Anuj Kumar and first officer (co-pilot) Amit Mundra – for fudging their flying hours to get licence to fly from the DGCA. Apart from this, the aviation regulator is close on the heels of fifth commander who allegedly faked exam mark sheets to become a commander.

"Following investigations into the fake flying license issue, SpiceJet has terminated the services of the two pilots with immediate effect. The pilots have been accused of misrepresenting their flying hours in order to obtain their license from Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA)... The airline is committed to provide a safe travel without ever compromising the safety of our esteemed customers," a SpiceJet statement said.

These are the first reported cases of fudged flying hours to get licences. From February-end, the DGCA has found four co-pilots (two of IndiGo; one each from MDLR and AI) who could not pass the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) exam to get promoted as commander. They allegedly got fake mark sheets prepared and became commanders. Now a fifth such case has been detected but the con-mander's name and the airline is being kept in wraps to ensure he does not flee.

"Con-mander" - very catchy

Tipsy Barossa
20th Mar 2011, 19:50

What you heard were not mere rumours. As someone who had flown with some of these con artists, it was amazing how easy it was for them to con the KAL flight administration. A number of those were on the B777 and quite a few on the B744 when KAL started to accept non rated DECs. Ah, not forgetting those latinos with ICAO level 6 English having great difficulties with RT in Europe, Oceania and certain parts of Asia. How did they get level 6 English....the secret....a certain US ICAO English examiner of Latin American extract contracted by the Koreans to conduct the ICAO English tests just wantonly passed his latino bethrens with excellent scores. Other excellent speakers of English ( other than Americans and British ) sometimes only get a 5! And I have flown with these and they have absolutely no problems with ATCs RT all over the world.

There is cheating all over, only more so in India, Korea and some areas in the Far East........any rumours in Vietnam?

21st Mar 2011, 19:06
Captjns...Just because you have not come across pilots from JAR or FAA fudging their records does not mean they dont exist. I really dont have a case of sour grapes i am pretty happy about life in general.. I see a lot of expats with sour grapes though when they see asian carriers calling the shots... with high growth rates of indian aviation the regulatory body DGCA has not seen any reform. Corruption is a major issue in india and like every other sector its in aviation also...:rolleyes:

25th Mar 2011, 02:58

I think the fake-pilots should be punished for what they did -- they bribed government officials to attain licenses for which they had no right to have and endangered seemingly countless lives in doing so. I do believe the government officials who took the bribes and handed out the false licenses should also be punished too and removed from their positions.

25th Mar 2011, 05:11
I have read your post as well as Jetwins.
I agree with Jetwins that the Punishing DGCA officials will Stem the rot in the system like nothing else can.
The D.G.C.A. licencing officials can drive an honest Pilot up the wall and commit suicide. Most pilots have paid Speed Money and Money to overcome Frivolous objections of D.G.C.A. officials. They have done wrong but the bigger sinners are DGCA officials. Punish the DGCA chaps first. & see corruption end in Indian Aviation.

25th Mar 2011, 05:44
If you are waiting for the indigenous to do something about the DGCA, you will be waiting a very long time indeed. They are too busy trying to get rid of the expats. They really cant see who the real enemy is and are probably too stupid to ever see. What never ceases to amaze me is the willingness of the Indians to roll over and take this sort of treatment.

Where is ICAO when you need them??

25th Mar 2011, 07:13
weido_salt… I have to say that it’s not the DGCA that wants the expats out… it SWIP and the Indian Airline Pilots Union. Their rationale is… no expat captains… faster upgrade to command for current first officers. One can only hope that Indian airlines have adequate legal consul, risk managers, and liability insurance advisors consulting them on the foibles of premature upgrades.

I was shocked that a previous poster felt that pilots who bribed the DGCA should be compensated for personal damages. Now I hope that statement was a tongue in cheek remark.

As I posted before, not only ICAO, but every aviation agency round the free world need to take immediate action against all Indian Airlines operating within their airspace. As extreme as my thought may be, but remember due to safety violations, some airlines from Africa and Indonesia banned from the EU and the US.

Safety Assessment of Foreign Aircraft Ramp Inspections (SAFA) will only serve as a process to see if the fraudulent documents in the possession of these illegals are current. Given the state of the DGCA’s ineptitude as well as record keeping procedures, I can’t see the DGCA being motivated as a cooperating entity with other aviation agencies. Has anyone visted the DGCA in Delhi? IMO words cannot describe the state of the offices of the DGCA. It’s one of those sights that one need to witness for themselves. Shear filth and disgrace.

Call me a cynic, call me paranoid, or untrusting, but this is what I foresee. IMO the DGCA will discover more fraudulent certificates than they were banking on. We can all agree the DGCA and the Indian Government want this embarrassment to disappear. With that being said, I’ll wager a month’s pay that the DGCA will take their pens, (ala a magic wands) and by the miracle of the Indian Sky Gods, make those fraudulent certificates into legitimate ones.

ICAO needs to step in to audit ATPL pilot certificates of those airmen operating beyond the borders of India. A team must be created comprised of representatives of aviation agencies from other countries. Oversight of the Indian DGCA is essential, as clearly exhibited, they incapable of this themselves. Immediate action must be taken to ensure the safety of the innocents both onboard the aircraft and on the ground. The cost should be borne by the DGCA.

If SWIP and the Indian Airline Pilots Union had one set of cajones between the group of them, they would demand reform concerning this matter to route out and prosecute those illegals… but alas, and for shame… illegal pilots amongst their ranks is not of a primary concern.

25th Mar 2011, 09:06

Yes point taken.

Agree totally with your views.

25th Mar 2011, 14:42
i knw many expat pilots who has never flown the aircraft as commender but took the rating by paying. they r more dangerous than having a guy who atleast has genuine flying experience... if ne one wants to knw the names , i can provide with licence numbers....

compressor stall
25th Mar 2011, 15:39
All over the sensationalist media (Times Now) here in India tonight. Spycams, names being named in DGCA etc.

26th Mar 2011, 17:35
Just saw in the news, DGCA licensing officer 2 touts and ANOTHER pilot arrested in india!
Seems like the authority have finally opened there eyes or is this just another way of silencing the audience!!

Shell Management
26th Mar 2011, 17:46
It is unfortunate that this outrage will tarnish the reputations of comptent and qualified Indian crew.

One can only hope that vigourous action is taken by the Indian authorities and the wrongdoers are properly brought to justice.

That is the only way that they can avoid the country being blacklisted.

No doubt Indian airlines will be top of the pops for SAFA ramp checks for some time.:}

26th Mar 2011, 18:37
They also need to scrutinize and put under the microscope licenses of expat pilots that have converted to Indian licenses the dubious way!
Would be interesting to see how many of them get booted out!

26th Mar 2011, 19:01
The Air India pilot was arrested the day before I flew from Nagpur to Delhi with LOCO Indigo.

At the time of his arrest one of Indigos pilots was also arrested for false docs.

It is only the tip of the iceberg but the Indian Authorities have said they will take strong action against these 'fakes' as they weedle them out of the system (newspaper reporting - how true not verified)

How robust that action will be presumably dependent on what level of back handers is required.

As was stated in another post (con pilots being conned) if it's worth spending 5-7lakh to up your salary to 20lakh a month then a few more lakh won't be missed to get a blind eye turned.

After the report, sent to me by a friend in Hong Kong, of up to 200 Chinese pilots having been found to hold false papers I would hope that serious measures will be taken.

26th Mar 2011, 19:01
There will be lots of noise and a few heads will roll, but in a year or so's time nothing will have changed because corruption is endemic to the sub-continent. Over the years I have interviewed scores of IT Engineers from India, many with supposed higher degrees, who would be hard pressed to know how to actuate the on-off switch of the average computer. I have heard of similar experiences within the medical professions. That is the reality. What is needed is that for those who fly internationally their licences to do so should be isssued and verified by an international body. Otherwise it is just a lot of hot air. What they choose to do within their domestic confines is an internal matter.

27th Mar 2011, 00:32

Expats do not convert their licenses. They are issued a Foreign Air Transport Authorization (FATA). A FATA is tantamount to a validation. One must maintain their qualifications to airman's certificate current and medical in order for a FATA to be issued. With that being said... no conversion.

Can't say I can comment on the aviation system works in Nairobi.

Most expats in India are from countries whose aviation agencies record keeping systems are computerized and are almost, and I say again almost bullet proof. With that being said it is rather unlikely that aviation officials from those countries would or could be complicit in such a scheme as endemic in India.

27th Mar 2011, 03:22

Expats are not allowed to hold an Indian licence and be awarded the associated privileges. They are given a validation (FATA) under very strict conditions while flying Indian registered aircraft. One company, one type of aircraft and no training for new types, etc., etc.

27th Mar 2011, 04:24
FATA = Foreign Aircrew Temporary Authority

27th Mar 2011, 10:22
:= Stop that expat bashing! Indian aviation produces more fake pilots in a year than all western countries together in decades. IMHO employing expat pilots is the only way for an indian carrier to assure competent pilots in the cockpit. :ok:

27th Mar 2011, 16:32
Has someone already posted this? If so, apologies...

BBC News - India revokes licences of 14 'fake pilots' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-12857742)

28th Mar 2011, 02:52
Probably this action on part of the Indian regulators is little too late in coming, who, while following the diktats of its political masters, brings in changes without even considering the checks and balances. End result: compromised aviation safety! (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/aviation-safety-is-the-future-bleak/)

Unfortunately, all this is happening in the centenary year of Indian aviation (http://www.avmed.in/2011/02/1911-in-aviation-history-–-india-and-the-world/).

30th Mar 2011, 21:13
http://www.deccanherald.com/content/149463/fake-pilots-scam-police-issue.html (Lookout notice issued against three pilots)

New Delhi, March 28, DHNS:

The Delhi Police have issued a lookout notice against three pilots and a flying instructor to ensure they did not flee the country. The notices were issued by the Delhi Police’s crime branch against pilots Swaran Singh Talwar of MDLR, Syed Habib Ali and Bhupinder Singh for allegedly being involved in forging marksheets to procure flying licences, a senior police official said on Monday.

“The three persons possess licences but have not joined any airline. Similar notice has also been issued against a flying instructor D Asatkar,” the official added.

All airports and ports have also been put on high alert. The arrested DGCA official told the police he had processed files relating to around 60 licences in the past two years. The pilots had procured Airlines Transport Pilot Licence (ATPL) using fake documents.

“One has to clear three subjects—Aviation Meteorology, Radio Aids and Instruments and Air Navigation—to get ATPL to become a Commander of a plane. However, these pilots failed in one or the other papers,” the official said.

31st Mar 2011, 00:46
dont forget Turkey:

there the first officer log their hours when they are pilot flying as PIC hours!!

so after they do their upgrade to captain, they have already like 3000 PIC hours in their logbook and qualify for many airlines. but in fact they actually only have 200 hours on the left...

but this procedure to log PF time as PIC time is even promoted and and accepted by the turkish companys and their DGCA...

so on the paper their pilots look so experienced. but you may fly with a star alliance member and your captain has not even 500 hours PIC time...

now one guy told me, this is even legal with JAR regulations? but it doesnt feel right.
and over 10 tailstrikes per year with a fleet of just 20 aircrafts speaks for itself...

Shell Management
3rd Apr 2011, 11:39
That definately isn't :mad: right.

Turkey may have been in the JAA but it is outside of EASA. I assume SAFA checks would pick this up.:confused:

Zippy Monster
3rd Apr 2011, 13:12
In my relatively short career I've had about 4 flights that have been subjected to SAFA checks, and on not one occasion has an inspector asked to see a logbook.

Shell Management
3rd Apr 2011, 13:14
Sounds rather lack of them.

Every oil company advisor when auditing is trained to look closely at fliying experience.

3rd Apr 2011, 16:06
dont forget Turkey:

there the first officer log their hours when they are pilot flying as PIC hours!!

Have you checked the FAA regulations lately? You might find that the same thing happens in the USA if the person is type rated on the aircraft :)

3rd Apr 2011, 16:12
Those SICs logging PIC in the US seeking employment may be found out with PRIA. Other countries are getting hep to the PRIA too.

3rd Apr 2011, 16:20
Captainnic, your informations is not correct. FOs get the logbook signed by PIC after each flight, so cannot be PIC. Re SAFA, there is NO requirement to carry your logbook anymore. My advice, just avoid India.

3rd Apr 2011, 16:33
I have never been asked for my log on a ramp inspection. If I was asked I would say it is at home. If the inspector asked why I would politely inform him it is not a wise idea to be carrying around your logbook on the aircraft. If he asked why, he would be informed, if the aircraft were to crash and burn, there would be no logbook to refer to in the accident investigation. Same applies when considering carrying the aircraft logbooks.

3rd Apr 2011, 17:20

What is this?

3rd Apr 2011, 18:22
I am amazed that India still has IASA Cat 1 status.
From here, it looks like oversight is inadequate. :confused:

Chuck Canuck
3rd Apr 2011, 21:04
If I were an inspector I would never trust any pilot flying logbook as they could be easily doctored; it would just be a waste of time. The only true record would be the airline's computer records and I would ask to see that print out for the previous month.

Mat Sapu
3rd Apr 2011, 23:15
Already been done at reputable airlines with bona fide pilots. Some regulatory agencies will now have only a cursory look at a pilot's logbook but insist on company computer records. Through ACARS and auto flight log systems, on completion of flight all flight details go to the company computer data base including autolands, engine out taxi, low drag flap landings and of course any FOQA excursions!

6th Apr 2011, 01:54
This is just the "tip of the iceberg" to be cliche'. I have an acquaintance who related a story to me about a Air India crew out of Delhi several months back that stalled the B777 on takeoff. Supposedly recovered at approx. 700 feet. This gentleman was on the jumpseat and reached up and firewalled the throttles and told the Indian captain to level his wings and lower his nose to stop the buffeting(they proceeded past the stick shaker phase). The two first officers in the cockpit were VERY low time. If this story is true, I would love to investigate the backgrounds of the Indian crew. Unfortunately this is going to happen more and more.

6th Apr 2011, 07:10
@keyline: The event seems to be the subject of this thread in PPRUNE: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/430117-air-india-near-death-incident.html

Mind you, it's not all negative news from that of the world. Here's a story about young, hard working ATPL. Hard working, because she at the age of 21 has already accumulated 2,100 hours flying time. Very impressive.

Hats off to Bavicca Bharathi ! | Aviation Herald (http://aviationherald.org/2011/01/hats-off-to-bavicca-bharathi/)

12th Apr 2011, 09:45
26 fake pilots found in DGCA sweep

NEW DELHI: The Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) has detected 13 fake pilots, six commanders and seven co-pilots in all who got their licences using unfair means so far. The number of fake commanders could well be close to a peak as the verification drive is almost complete.

There are 1,704 Indian commanders and papers of 31 of them are to be checked by the end of this week.

The focus is now on checking the papers of 6,331 co-pilots registered with the DGCA. "We have checked 1,000 co-pilots' papers and come across seven instances where unfair means were used. Screening of other co-pilots will be completed at the earliest," DGCA chief Bharat Bhushan said. He added that authorities had started a massive crackdown.

The aviation ministry has started the process of revamping pilot examination system. It is getting suggestions from public stakeholders for the process: conduct online exams for pilots and commanders periodically and have a defined syllabus

Very safe now :(

23rd Apr 2011, 13:20
Most of these JOKERS that are being held for forging their documents are the ones who got into the cockpit during the peak period in Indian Aviation (when India was ruling in overcapacity).

There are many more who may have not forged their documents, but are incompetent to get to the left seat, which in turn delays the new guys getting into the right seat... Thats also the reason behind shortage of Indian Commanders..

1st May 2011, 17:19
Some one had too much hummus that night :yuk:.

1st May 2011, 17:32

Strike , coruption and all thats going on in AI
no wonder some corps on the road :confused:

The Hindu : News / National : BJP smells bigger scam in Air India (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1983494.ece)

Best Regards

1st May 2011, 17:35
The Hindu : News / National : Air India MD asks staff to ‘persuade’ pilots to return to work (http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article1983424.ece)

White Knight
1st May 2011, 17:46
I have never been asked for my log on a ramp inspection. If I was asked I would say it is at home. If the inspector asked why I would politely inform him it is not a wise idea to be carrying around your logbook on the aircraft. If he asked why, he would be informed, if the aircraft were to crash and burn, there would be no logbook to refer to in the accident investigation. Same applies when considering carrying the aircraft logbooks.

Get this straight!!!!!! There is NO requirement to carry your personal logbook when you are operating crew!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3rd May 2011, 04:39
White Knight.... Airlines and other agencies, not only in India, have their own specific requirements concerning this issue.

3rd May 2011, 19:08
Since, I couldn't resist commenting about the on going drivel.

Contrary to the knowledgeable comments of some members some facts about Indian license holders.

1. Contrary to some fantastic figures reported on earlier posts, about 18 "suspected cases " of fake licenses have emerged.

2.Yes, we have a problem with our regulatory authority which was not revamped when the aviation liberalization policy took place.Hence, the policing and monitoring might be archaic.That, however does not come in the way of specific safety monitoring such as 100% DFDR monitoring and recently 100% BA preflight(nuisance) on all Airline operations.
Some countries permit a minimal BA % for mouth alcohol,we don't have anything of that sort.The FAA altp exam is a 5 day question bank cramming
session.The Indian altp is a 3 paper exam that has only recently become an objective exam.The Indian DGCA plans to make it similar to the JAR format July '11 onwards.

3.The medical standards for civil pilots is stricter than both FAA and European standards.Whether it's required to be at that standard maybe debatable,but hey you want to make money or get a job you work to my rules(expats doing
medicals in India serves local pilot interest since most expats have not had to
deal with such strict medicals and invariably fail the medicals initially at least.

4.The last fatal accident involving an Indian carrier was commanded by a JAR ALTP holder.Both recent non fatal accidents with aircraft damage one was by a FAA Altp and the other by another JAR license holder.All expat Captains first world experience and training.I AM NOT SAYING THAT'S WHY IT HAPPENED I AM JUST SAYING WHEN YOU SHOOT YOUR MOUTH STICK TO THE FACTS.

5.Today,most news agencies in India are trying to outdo each other with more breaking or shocking news.What you read might not be factual, hence a bit of restraint would earn us more regard.

Having said all that blah blah blah, we do have serious issues that need to be dealt with and are being dealt with on a daily basis by a lot of right thinking individuals.

6th May 2011, 12:48
nice one rasper.:ok: