Easyjet New Ab-initio scheme :)

[BusinessMan]

On today's Flight Global website, brief details of a new MPL scheme due open for apps April 2011 to start Aug and then be on-going with quarterly intakes throughout 2012.

Few years since I got the dream call myself now but I still got a buzz from thinking that the opportunities are going to start reappearing and people will be getting that call again :)

Best of luck all!

EasyJet teams up with Oxford Aviation Academy for MPL training (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/03/10/354227/easyjet-teams-up-with-oxford-aviation-academy-for-mpl.html)

[kingofkabul]

Sounds fantastic. I look forward to seeing the details! I wonder if these pilots will have to be employed directly by easyjet as it is an MPL course, and not via flexi-screw/PARC

Good luck to all who've been waiting for opportunities such as this to arise!

[zondaracer]

cue captainsuperstorm in 3..... 2..... 1.....

[CharlieFly]

This is really good news - the fact that any airline is starting to take FlyBe's lead in sponsored schemes must be a sign that the industry is picking up and is expected to continue to do so.

All we need now is for BA to do the same and the flood-gates will really open.

[giggitygiggity]

isn't this really bad news for the next batch of ctc wings cadets as surely, easyjet will only employ those trained under their own scheme? my course will finish in 2013 around the time when these first groups from the oaa-easyjet scheme graduate.

should i be worried?

[Jerry Lee]

It will be very very hard to get in! Oh yeeaah!
I just hope one thing: that there will be place for other young pilot who did/do/will do a modular course not in 'top school' like OAA.
I say this because I just think I'm not a very intelligent boy, I'm not studying physic or other subject like that... I will graduate next school from a technical high school (accountancy, finance, insurance, informatic, programming language); so I don't think I will be recruited even for the APPFO program as I wouldn't pass the first selection test where many questions about chemistry and physic are asked. All subjects which I studied just for one year three years ago...
After all, the only things needed to know to fly a plane professionally and properly are the ones explained in flight training and ground school. All other stuff is something which is 'nice-to-know'.

I will go in the USA, do the traditional route, and do any kind of job flying anywhere in the world trying to avoid to pay to fly or pay a TR without a job guarantee, but I will still hope to become an airline pilot a day.

Anyway, good luck for whom will try - I'll do it, too.

[BusinessMan]

Some more good news: BBC News - Airline giant Virgin Atlantic creates 450 jobs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-12710070) - with BA and Virgin currently hiring experienced pilots the flow of openings will move downwards as people in smaller airlines leave for these positions.

@kingofkabul - BA were on the verge of rolling a scheme out about 3 years ago but the credit crunch just caught up with them. I'll be very interested to watch their moves over the next couple of years ;)

@giggitygiggity - sorry I'm not v familar with it but doesn't CTC tag people for an airline right from the start? Either way, if the last 'upturn' is anything to go by, then I'd expect to see the larger operators taking their pick of the candidates from a selection of schools and not necessarily limiting themselves just to the one with whom they have a scheme running.

Requirements vary over time and with a roughly 18month lead time from starting an ab-initio course to line-qualified airlines will still need to fill fluctuating gaps via sources other than their own schemes.

[veetwo]

Good news indeed that things seem to be starting to move in our industry again. I do wonder what CTC will make of this announcement though! Hopefully an end to their stranglehold on easyJet recruitment.

Just a couple of notes of caution here guys.

1. I very much doubt that this new scheme will be "sponsored" in any way. It is more likely to be akin to the old "tagged" schemes where you pay for the training yourself and subject to satisfactory performance and a vacancy being available at the time of graduation you can expect a job offer. Nevertheless it is preferable to going it alone and not being tagged!

2. The problem with the MPL, as several chaps at Sterling found out if memory serves, is that should your placement with easyJet not work out (for whatever reason) you may find yourself in a difficult position with regards to finding alternative employment on an MPL. Make sure you don't put all your eggs in once basket without a back up plan.

3. It it is good that you have an airline placement waiting at the end. However, all is not well in the land of orange. Morale is genuinely appalling and the increasing use of contract staff is degrading terms and conditions, together with the collective bargaining power of the union. Expect to work very hard and give up your right to a social life pretty much indefinately due to the increasing use of "flexible rostering". I appreciate it is difficult for wannabes to worry about such things before even securing the job, but it's worth a second thought in my book. Sadly, easyJet seems hell bent on a course of confrontation with it's staff and where it will lead, no one knows.

Notwithstanding the above, the very best of luck to all those who apply. It is clearly a good opportunity to get in with a major jet operator at the start of your career..and as a stepping stone to greater things.

[rogerg]

2. The problem with the MPL, as several chaps at Sterling found out if memory serves, is that should your placement with easyJet not work out (for whatever reason) you may find yourself in a difficult position with regards to finding alternative employment on an MPL. Make sure you don't put all your eggs in once basket without a back up plan.


If this happens then you can transfer to the Fatpl scheme.

[veetwo]

If this happens then you can transfer to the Fatpl scheme.

Is that definately the case? If so, then perhaps it's not such a big punt. However, no doubt there would be significant costs attached to transferring - particularly at a late stage.

[BusinessMan]

@v2 - very interesting point you bring up there about this scheme almost certainly being unsponsored (ab-initio £, notwithstanding T/R etc), similarly to most of the old tagged schemes. The only true 'sponsorship' I remember seeing since 911 was the Bond Helicopters scheme in 2007 (roughly 75% sponsored).

However (and I appreciate most people disagree with me on this), with the current dirth of available lending it is my opinion that at least partial sponsorship will have to make a reappearance in the next few years.

I believe this because I don't see how else the airlines will be able to get both the required volume and quality of ab-initio intake which they will be seeking, come the upturn and once the existing backlog is absorbed.

Quality based primarily on who can afford the training has always been dubious to say the least and with so little funding available now I can't see how the volume of quality trainees can be provided without sponsorship in the medium term.

I think it'll take a couple of years but I think it'll happen ... even if no-one else does :p.

Anyway, hopefully this recent news is some light at the end of the tunnel for those trying to get in now.

[kingofkabul]

@BusinessMan - yes the lack of funding is a clear issue, but rather than partially sponsor i would imagine airlines would offer the security for the BBVA loan.

If BA do launch a similar scheme i would expect it to be this year as the b787 and a380 are only 2 years away.

OAA have stated if easyjet do not want cadets then the MPL will be converted to the CPL/IR free of charge.

[BusinessMan]

I hadn't thought of that, I wonder how it'd work (securing the loan).

Either way, if they do start to do it then it will still be a huge step forward for those who cannot afford training otherwise. 2 reasons:

1 In effect it'd be a form of sponsorship, allowing selection based on suitability rather than finances :ok:, with loan repayments to BBVA replacing the reduction in early salary.

2 As important would be the fact that by underwriting the loan the airline is shouldering the financial risk for the trainee - which is a huge change, even compared to the old 'tagged' schemes :D.

Those cadets who were dropped at the end of training by the airline (as numbers were in 2007ish) would not have such vast debt hanging over them alongside the prospect of no job.

- is there expected to be a big increase in capacity with BA acquiring the 78 & 380? Wouldn't they be replacement for retiring 744s? (ie not necessarily an indicator in itself of more pilots required). I'm not involved with BA though so wouldn't know.

- that's good news re OAA underwriting the conversion to CPL/IR too

All good stuff.

[kingofkabul]

You are correct in saying that a380 and 787 are more for replacing 744 and 767 fleets, however whilst they are introduced there is ineffiiency in the sysyem as many pilots are involved in training and are not actually flying any aircraft, hence you need more pilots than usual to cover the transition period. There is some growth planned too.

Hopefully this is the sign of things to come, short of FlyBe there have been almost no 'tagged' schemes for about 4 years!

[stuckgear]

[/URL]EasyJet teams up with Oxford Aviation Academy for MPL training (http://go.redirectingat.com/?id=42X487496&xs=1&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.flightglobal.com%2Farticles%2F2011%2F03 %2F10%2F354227%2Feasyjet-teams-up-with-oxford-aviation-academy-for-mpl.html&sref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pprune.org%2Finterviews-jobs-sponsorship%2F445281-easyjet-new-ab-initio-scheme.html)

Good god, it's like watching a train crash in slow motion.

do you [U]really think that Easy are having a hard job finding pilots ?

[rogerg]

do you really think that Easy are having a hard job finding pilots ?

Maybe Easy like OAA trained pilots and even MPL!!!.?

SHOCK HORROR

[stuckgear]

Really ?

No, honestly; Really ?

:ugh:

Of course OAA like the MPL program, a fresh bunch of lunatics to throw 80,000 into a licence that is going to be worth nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada on the open market. and will have to come back to spend more money for something that may actually be useful.

Of course Easy are going to like it, they'll have a whole fresh bunch of lunatics that will have no option but to accept whatever sh1t contract they have dangled in front of them becuse they'll have a licence worth jack sh1t and be hog tied to easy becuase they wont have any paperwork of value on the market.

It's commercial pressure being packaged and supplied to you.

If you think that OAA and Easy are doing this because "well, they're just a nice bunch of guys that soo want help people get flying and earn really good salaries off them," think again.


You know if Easy weally, weally, weally like OAA guys and girls that much, why dont they employ some of them, there's a lot of them out there looking for work ?

[rogerg]

You know if Easy weally, weally, weally like OAA guys and girls that much, why dont they employ some of them, there's a lot of them out there looking for work ?

They have. Check the recent stats.

[rogerg]

a licence worth jack sh1t and be hog tied to easy becuase they wont have any paperwork of value on the market

After they reach 1500hrs while being paid, they will have a ALTP with 737 type rating. Could be worse.

[kingofkabul]

@stuckgear

We have had no details on either the full cost of the course, which must include a TR, or the terms of employment thereafter. Why be so negative without a single fact to back it up?

After 1500 hours the MPL can be converted into a normal ATPL - just like the CPL/IR route - this equates to just 2 years in easyJet at 750 hours per year. After that you have a full ATPL and possibly the most marketable and useful TR in the world. Quite the opposite of the picture you are painting.

[rogerg]

Small correction, Its now a A320 type rating. Also useful.

[BusinessMan]

@stuckgear - no-one is suggesting OAA or Easyjet are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts. They are businesses. Is that really relevant anyway?

However, the fact that they are doing it is good news for wannabees (and others) however you look at it: tagging students at the start of training takes some of the training risk out for them, they probably have jobs to go to, getting in at the start of the upturn is the best possible time to be joining a new industry, the fact that schemes are making a comeback is a very positive sign of things changing for the better etc etc.

We all know it's hard times for anyone trying to join our industry at the moment but trying to claim this isn't good news doesn't really hold up as an argument, to my simple mind anyway.

[stuckgear]

you can take the interpretation of it any way you want to that's your decision, you are big enough to make your own decisions it is your perogative.

There are specific and certain questions you need to consider the answer to and in hard reality situations, not with confirmation bias of what you want the answer to be.


We all know it's hard times for anyone trying to join our industry at the moment but trying to claim this isn't good news doesn't really hold up as an argument, to my simple mind anyway.


It's also hard time for people in the industry.

Look, i appreciate and understand your desire to get into the industry, but instead of just lurking in the wannabes section, i really suggest you take a hard look at the R&N section and the T&E sections.

Some of us have been in this industry for a while and it's completely down to you if you want to listen to those whom have walked the same path as you, those whom are active in the industry at different levels. There are many of them on this site and many would be happy to share with you their experience and thoughts, to enable *YOU* to the make the best decsion for *you*.

You seriusly have to consider the downsides, that is ever more pertinent to aviation to any other industry. like i said not in a fluffy world of what the best case scenario is but the absolute worst. when you are aware of that you can then plan accordingly, rather than find yourself left high and dry.



Of course it's up to you to make your decisions, no one can do that for you, but you need to condsider the what if situation and if you don't want to listen and consider, then fine, that is your perogative also.

The truth is some of you will make a career in this industry and some of you will not but equally, i sincerely wish all you the best of luck.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its not really good news though is it.

All that's happening is that the second largest UK airline and by far the most active recruiter of pilots is restricting its recruitment to graduates of OAA or CTC. If you haven't got the cash for either then forget it. If you were hoping to move up from your turboprop forget it. If you were thinking of leaving the military for the airlines forget it. If you were thinking of getting some six months in with easyJet and then joining BA forget it (for two years at least).

For Joe Average Wannabe this is just another brick in the £80,000 wall.


WWW

[Deano777]

Do you chaps actually know anything about unfreezing an ATPL? You can't just unfreeze it when you reach 1500hrs, you have to unfreeze it during an LPC, if you reach 1500hrs (& the other criteria) even a day after your LPC then it'll be a further year before you can unfreeze it. Very, very few pilots unfreeze theirs at 1500hrs.

[stuckgear]

WWW

indeed.

and what are these guys going to do if they get dropped mid way, a change in contract terms, shoved in a hold pool for ever and a day.

A a new batch of people desperate to get started into a career in this industry ready to be sold down the river with a millstone around their necks, not unlike the last few batches, just in different packaging.


Deano,

the thing is, some of us in the industry are all to aware of the harsh realities and time and experience has left us with the understanding of the samll print.

look at it like this the suggestion that after 2 years in Easy with an MPL, you'll come out with a minted ATPL and a TR and the world is your lobster..

how about these guys getting paid by block flying hour, yet being on duty till they are dead on their feet, flying maybe 300 hours per year, its less than minimum wage and yet they'll be bought and owned for what 5 years till they can even think about unfreezing and earning big time with the legacy carriers.

again, it's a cheap deal to get a load of right seaters hog tied into a situation where they have no option but to accept whatever bone they maybe thrown.

You can try to give people the possible downsides but if they dont want to listen or consider alternatives, then it's much more than destroying their futures chasing an ever moving goal post.

[kingofkabul]

Until we hear any details this is all pure speculation. But yes, no one I hope is that naive to assume that a low-cost airline are about to give you a golden ticket. The details of the scheme will surely create a lot of debate on these forums. If it's a cr@p deal many will forgo it.

However, the current choices for wannabees are limited. Its either Flybe for a terrible salary and piss poor ROI, risk it at an integrated and hope BA take you on, or go for a tagged scheme such as this. The only other option as I can see it is to not bother with flying at all.

[BusinessMan]

Stuckgear I haven't disputed any of what you are saying about the industry and how it works for many people. I actually think it's a good thing that such discussions between people 'already in' get held on the wannabe's forum so that those trying to get in can do so with their eyes open.

I have only been in the industry flying for a few years but when I did start out I had many years in a previous career to fall back on (as you wisely suggested earlier) in the event of anything drastic happening and am fully aware that I was very much 1 of the lucky ones to have got into a good job (which I love) when I did.

Since joining the industry I have seen numerous lay-offs of experienced pilots at competitors and have seen 'tagged' cadets from other companies be unceremoniously dropped when the company didn't need them (both during and after training). It is a risky and expensive move to join this industry and I fully agree people need to think long and hard about it first.

I do still however stand by my opinion that seeing new schemes opening up is a good thing for wannabes. That is only my opinion and having our views open to dispute (ie balance ;)) by others on this kind of forum is part of the intrinsic value of forums like pprune

www - I see where you're coming from and admit I hadn't considered it from the standpoints of those ex-mil or further down the civvy training chain (rather than wannabes who've not yet started).

Numbers of my old training classmates are still looking for flying work but some are starting to get picked up now and it sounds like rogerg is seeing the same where he is. I won't be so naive as to suggest all in their position will be picked up before the new schemes start providing pilots to the line but there is a good 2 years for these (& the ex-mil) people to be getting in ahead of those coming out of this new scheme for this airline. I do sincerely wish them all the best of luck.

Time for some rugby. BM

[kingofkabul]

Stuckgear - you had a really well-written post but it seems to have vanished. Yes, everyone should fully research what the job is actually like and understand how much it has changed since the glory days.

As for timing, as the well respected WWW has pointed out, easyJet and RYR are nearing the end of their expansion - so if you want to get in you only have a few years left. BA are in need of
a lot pf pilots in the short-term due to new aircraft introductions, and Virgin are in a similar boat. Also, with RA65 people will start to retire again. From my research I feel as if there will be a short window of reasonable recruitment in the UK/West EU and after that its back to dead man's shoes. ...my 2 pence anyway.

[Deano777]

Cesco

:ugh: Of course you can do that, but you are just being a pedant. You would have to pay for it out of your own pocket. Why on earth would you want to do that when you would never be able to use the ATPL in it's full capacity (i.e. a command) for a few more years anyway? You're just nit picking for the hell of it.

[angelorange]

So once upon a time EZY did a deal with a certain flight school that promised them the cost of an accident would be much higher than what they were charging for their approved cadet system.

Those that joined the scheme were messed around in 2008/2009 to the effect that they were back in bar jobs for 6 months at a time and tied to a contract that refused them permission to join other airlines.

Now the same airline is going even lower cost by introducing the MPL route. The tie in is more severe than the old cadet scheme and the students get far less actual P1/command time on their actual flying courses (nil if EASA MPL min cost version used).

SIM time is wonderful for proceedural learning but it is not real! There is no real risk and pilot's know it. When it comes to Upset recoveries the false flight envelope data and wrong motion queing of most SIMs actually reinforce bad habits.

When some "approved school" cadets were questioned on the line by Capts regarding Mach buffet or which way the nose of a B737 goes at the stall, most did not know or gave false information.

Wonder if the CAA is still bothered by this or the lack of manual flying that Airbus and Boeing have stated concerns them?

Rumour has it another UK airline was told max 15% cadet entry due to the ever lowering experience levels on the flight deck. Now that would be something positive for all experience levels of aircrew!

If OAA really offer cancelled MPLs a CPL/IR free of charge then there must be a significant profit in the system to pay for all the solo and Multi Engine time!

[Ashling]

You may also find a large number of Captains unwilling to give these guy's/gals handling time in all but the most benign conditions. This is all about cheap pilot's for easyJet and cash for OAA. Any benefit that the students may or may not get is of little actual concern to either other than for marketing purposes.

[rogerg]

The cost of an MPL and ATPL is not a lot different. The advantage of the MPL, from the airlines point of view, is that the pilot has been prepared for that airlines SOPs and the airline has got involved in the syllabus. The MPL student does some aerobatics as well which is not normaly included in the ATPL.
You may also find a large number of Captains unwilling to give these guy's/gals handling time in all but the most benign conditions.
Surely not that small minded. Wouldn't happen in my day!

[Ashling]

As an MCCI I would guess that you have quite an interest in this.

I think peoples concern is safety rather than being small minded and persecuting the cadets for the sake of it. That is much less likely to happen today than it was when you started out.

People will base decisions on their experience of the product and that of their colleagues. 125 hours is very little in anyone's book. They once coined a phrase in the RAF "fewer flying hours, better qualative training" hmmm Maybe the structure of the course will be better aligned to a specific need but in the end there is no substitute for experience. What is driving all this is the desire to produce a product at the minimum cost to the airline and the end result is very inexperienced pilots flying in the RHS of commercial jets. That places an increased burden on the Captains who will have to make safety based judgements on how they approach this. The Airbus is not set up as a dual control aircraft as their is no feedback of what the other chap is upto and taking control, in an Airbus, has its own issues as several major incidents have shown. As a result Captains will, and should, be cautious until they can get a feel for how competent individuals are.

The system could work if sufficient effort is put into ongoing supervision and training of the product over and above what now exists but the reality is that such systems are not in place. There has always been an element of mentoring and development in the role of a line Captain but it is not their primary role and they are not trained for it so the quality is variable.

[rogerg]

We could go on forever discussing the pros and cons of MPL but when a new fatpl joins the fleet he is no better or worse off than the MPL. The MPL will have the same no of type hrs as the fatpl. The MPL will be more experienced operating the class of AC, due extra sim time, and the Fatpl will be more experienced at operating a single engine light AC.

Most Captains do not ask the FO where they did their training. They just get on and judge the FOs capabilities as time goes by. FOs also have many limitations anyway until the first sim check has been completed.

MPL has gone ahead anyway so you might as well get used to it

Thats me finished on the MPL.

[Ashling]

I'm sure, as you say, that MPL has its merits v the FATPL CTC Wings etc. I'd even go as far as to say that in proportion it is healthy that airlines recruit some people from these streams. After all it is important to maintain a balance accross the airline and a day out with a new cadet every now and then is enjoyable. Just not every day ! That is what it is becoming in at least one major UK airline with associated problems caused by a high dilution rate. The problem may not be MPL in and of itself rather the extent to which it is used (alongside FATPL) in some airlines.

[stuckgear]

KoK,

thanks for the comment on the post i made and yes i did pull it. The simple reason for being that i don't want to get into a lengthy debate and dissertation on the vagaries of the current status, if its not going to be at least considered and garners the response that 'I'm a pessimist', 'great things are happening', 'recruitment for all' etc. etc. ad nauseum. I am not going to waste my efforts and energies.

There are a lot of people on this forum that have many, many years and tears in this industry and can tell it like it is and give the prospective entrants into this industry the information and realities they need to be forewarned to look after not only their interests, but the interests of the stability and future of this industry that they desire to be part of.

But there are also those that want to take 'hook, line and sinker' the marketing b/s that FTO's pump out. If that is the case, then there is frankly nada, that anyone can do or say that will influence the 'confirmation bias'.

I can myself, like others, plant the seeds for people to think through a situation for them to determine the potential upsides/downsides. To think for themselves and cut through the marketing b/s to consider the reality behind the glossy brochures.

I am not in the position of hand holding and spending time and effort assisting those who simply cannot think beyond and to consider the downsides.

As I said in a previous post on the subject there are right now, bucket loads of pilots out there gagging to to get a right seat position with anyone. These people have time on type, in excess of thousands of hours, prepared to pay for a TR, relocate to BFE just to stay in the game.

So, why would EZ, look at future recruitment through the MPL program when there is a dearth of pilots available ?

And I know this question will illicit the usual responses complicit with the spoon fed marketing. That is why I pulled the post, useful as it may have been.


stay safe and good luck.

[chromeo]

This is really good news - the fact that any airline is starting to take FlyBe's lead in sponsored schemes must be a sign that the industry is picking up and is expected to continue to do so.

All we need now is for BA to do the same and the flood-gates will really open.

BA are currently taking from their own holding pool / on recommendation of flying schools, not running their own scheme. 6 started last month I think and 4 have been cherry picked from a training school that used to be in prestwick.

[chromeo]

When some "approved school" cadets were questioned on the line by Capts regarding Mach buffet or which way the nose of a B737 goes at the stall, most did not know or gave false information.

That's not the fault of the MPL. It is the way that the JAR exams are done, people use a west-country website and learn the correct answers to hit 90%+ and then when they get questioned outside of flying school have no frickin idea of why it might have been the correct answer.

Airlines are getting wise to it though and placing far more emphasis on aspects such as stability in technical interviews, to separate the knowledgeable from the memory gamers.

[loughrey1]

Hi guys, after reading through this thread i am really interested! I am 16, doing my A-levels and hoping to train to be a pilot in a year or two. However controversial, I want to train at OAA mainly because of the job opportunities at the end of it. Ideally i would like ot be employed for a large company like Easyjet to start off with. Does anyone have any advice or is this type or sponsorship even suitable for someone like me? Thanks

[Bealzebub]

What if I fail during training?
What if I make it through training and there are no jobs?
What if I make it through training, there are jobs but they're not offering the best, ahem, terms and conditions?

1 doesn't seem such an issue as most places now offer some sort of risk mitigation factor whereby a large chunk of the financial capital is recovered through some bespoke insurance scheme.
2 and 3 are the crux of the problem. If someone is capable then I see no reason why he or she shouldn't be entitled to try and break into the industry regardless of age. The issue is that if you gamble whilst young, WITHOUT a written guaranteed job offer, then what on earth are you going to do in the event of scenario 2 and 3?

When do you think there has ever been a written guaranteed job offer?

[catfoodtastesbad]

Oh dear, what an utter sham.

"The total training cost for the MPL First Officer course will be £85,000, including the CAA examination and license issue fees. This fee includes the cost of the A320 Type Training, which is Phase 4 of the course. Meals and accommodation costs are additional to the course fees and are estimated at £18,295 as outlined below"

followed by...

"No airline cadet programme has ever contained any absolute guarantees because economic conditions which influence airline crewing decisions can change"

And my personal favourite....

3) Compensation
Compensation details will follow.


hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Hats off to easyJet and OAA! No guarantee of employment, NO funding or security offered whatsover, NO COMPENSATION DETAILS AT ALL (I hope it is minimum wage), all for a massively over-inflated price.

What a joke!

And before you ask, I am a desparate wannabee myself, but I have the unfortunate gift of intelligence so will not be applying to such a shambolic disgraceful "opportunity".

[kingofkabul]

Wow that is expensive! £104,000! Isnt is much cheaper to go through CTC Wings?

It says there is no guaranteed employment, and no finance to help (automatically counts me out :hmm:).

Also, I find it strange that there are no details for compensation.... I hate to be cynical but this is quite a large gap in the details!

Hmmm.... think it's a "no" from me. :sad:

[jersey145]

104 Grand??????!!!!!! compared to under 80 grand for another MPL airline/fto provider???? arrr yes........making money out of your employees again! Those suckers just keep on coming....we may just have to off-load them before they unfreeze, leaving them to fund a CPL/IR conversion themselves......whilst on a reduced salary and heavily in debt. They will do anything to stay in a job, we say....they do....coz they have to!
CPL/IR scheme+320 TR for 104 Grand yes, apply but MPL at this cost????? no chance!

No protections afforded either eh??.....wouldn't suprise.

Oh, and just to put it into perspective, when paying for training you are looking at achieving a licence right? Well the CPL/IR has no requirment for a type rating before issue. The MPL does.....thus you are paying for a TR again! What a joke!

Do they provide KY jelly for the shafting????

[stuckgear]

£104,000


http://www5.cockytalk.com/images/smilies/ROTFL.gif

The sad thing is, there are some lunatics who will actually go for it.

back on page 1 of this thread, I asserrted..

Of course Easy are going to like it, they'll have a whole fresh bunch of lunatics that will have no option but to accept whatever sh1t contract they have dangled in front of them becuse they'll have a licence worth jack sh1t and be hog tied to easy becuase they wont have any paperwork of value on the market.


and was met with this response by KoK:

Why be so negative without a single fact to back it up?



I'm not having a pop at you KoK, the thing is some of us on this forum actually have considerable experience in the business/commercial aspects of aviation and have been about long enough to formulate a perception of what is being proposed.

You may think ohh but i'll suck it up for two years fly the max hours and then swan off with an ATPL. do you honestly think that is in EZ's best financial interests, as i said before:

how about these guys getting paid by block flying hour, yet being on duty till they are dead on their feet, flying maybe 300 hours per year, its less than minimum wage and yet they'll be bought and owned for what 5 years till they can even think about unfreezing and earning big time with the legacy carriers.

again, it's a cheap deal to get a load of right seaters hog tied into a situation where they have no option but to accept whatever bone they maybe thrown.


Soo what else can you do apart from fight like a pack dogs over what ever bone is thrown, becuase there wont be anywhere else to take the MPL along with the millstone of debt. That is commercial leverage.

Personally speaking I DO NOT want to see anymore wannabes with dreams and illusions expolited for commercial benefit of an operator or two, it is damaging to thie industry, to the larger pilot body and to your own individual security and futures.

[kingofkabul]

Agree completely now with you Stuckgear - no offence taken.

I'm sure there will be enough 17/18 year-old crazies to satisfy easyJet.

Here's hoping some better schemes come along this year! Anyone know of that Flybe/TCX scheme will come about again?

[stuckgear]

Here's hoping some better schemes come along this year! Anyone know of that Flybe/TCX scheme will come about again?



kok, the thing is, whats gone in the past is just that, gone. new 'schemes' will be just that, schemes. Take a run over into the T&E KoK and read the thread on Flybe. that'll give you a reality check of commercial leverage. The problem is that the new lows are being set and yet people sign up for them, which invariably sets the next scheme parameters even lower.

The hard fact is, the pilot dream job is just that, a dream. The FTO's are selling an illusion and the 'partner' airlines are taking commercial advantage of the illusion being sold.

Its been said before : http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/447857-pilot-still-considered-viable-career.html#post6352662

[jersey145]

Stuckgear.........hope its not a truck light? KoK and similar are no doubt eduacted types that will give this a miss. It would be interesting to sit at the interview and ask the tricky questions of EZY/OAA.

hopefully some less exploitative airlines may offer schemes for ab-initios in the near future. the industry will be damaged by CRM nightmares whose daddies own oil-fields if this contnues for too long........or god forbid...another Colgan air happens in the UK/EU, the old ways will come back.

[stuckgear]

Stuckgear.........hope its not a truck light? KoK and similar are no doubt eduacted types that will give this a miss. It would be interesting to sit at the interview and ask the tricky questions of EZY/OAA.

hopefully some less exploitative airlines may offer schemes for ab-initios in the near future. the industry will be damaged by CRM nightmares whose daddies own oil-fields if this contnues for too long........or god forbid...another Colgan air happens in the UK/EU, the old ways will come back.


huh ?

I certainly am not saying that KoK is not educated, but there are some on this forum who have experience in these very issues at depth.

Another Colgan air in the UK ? As far as I am aware the Colgan incident didn't happen in the UK, but hey, you learn something new every day.

If you are bringing up the fact that the Colgan incident is going to see improvement in T&C's in the UK/EU, go over to R&N and read the very threads on the EASA FTL revisions. Quite the opposite to your postulation, the EASA FTL proposals are divergent from improvements in T&C's and the opposite to what the FAA is doing in terms of fatigue.

[kingofkabul]

I think what J145 is referring to is a possible situation where an easyJet Airbus MPL-FO is so poor and depressed that they have to commute for miles to get to work, unrested, and promptly crash said Airbus. Thank God for Airbus stall prevention.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

What an utter bag of utter shhhhite! Stay well away 18-19-20 somethings out there! You really have been warned!!! This is pure salavating expolitation! Hold fire if i were you. But hey dreams are powerful things.

It is interesting that in my bank's literature on mortgages, it warns about getting into eye watering debt just for the 'dream'................

[tombell777]

That is ridiculous, I was looking forward to some semi affordable package the I could have possibly been able to afford. This is just taking it to new levels. :mad: OAA + Easyjet.

Employ some poor fATPL 250hr guys who are on the dole.

30 candidates at approx 100 GRAND each. Errmm £30 Million pounds!? Excellent.

This scheme is just for rich kids. If your reading this Mr Oxford you’re a mug.

[jersey145]

Stuckgear....evidently not a bigger boeing man......the truck light. not that it matters.

Just take a break for a moment. have a kitkat. i have one in my crew food bag for ya ;)
I was not saying the dash crashed in the UK. I meant that the US uped the hours to 1500 for ab-initios to get airline employment. hence 200 or so hour pilot programmes would die out. And yes if these new EASA FTLs come in then brace yourselves. but they are just proposals at this stage! And yes bean counter love them....safety costs more than an accident in their eyes. The colgan crew had limited experience in the right hand seat and piss poor training all round. Not that i wish to speak ill of the dead.

And any idiot can see that the new FTLs if imposed would lower TandCs all round.
I leave you with some advice...............RTFQ and RTFA. Now back to the exploitation at hand........................


P.S If you wish to have a quiet word with me please PM me.

[stuckgear]

RTFQ and RTFA.Right back atcha.


P.S If you wish to have a quiet word with me please PM me.
with that attitude; no desire thanks.

[cx_773er]

This is an absolute shambles.... £104,00 is a stupid amount of money to pay for a course. Easyjet should really have made this a part sponsored scheme. I really wonder how many apps OAA are actually going to recieve for this. Hopefully the thin numbers will slap some sense into the management there

[tombell777]

Based on that calculation, you should never become a pilot!

This is true lol finger slipped on the keypad ;)

[howflytrg]

So FTE and Flybe give you all MPL training a dash TR and accom and meals for £80,000. Why can EZY not emulate this? Flybe put you up in hotels at their cost during the induction and TR (phase 4) and give you a meal allowance. Why not EZY???? Have they no morals?

[Bealzebub]

Employ some poor fATPL 250hr guys who are on the dole.

Sorry, but that isn't really what airlines want. Even in the days when you needed 700 hours for a (non approved course) CPL/IR, it wasn't what they wanted.

The advantage to these companies of employing low houred "cadets" is one of cost and flexibility. The risk is the lack of experience.

The advantage for the airlines is that they source the perceived best cadets without any cost penalty from those training establishments that they have an affiliation with. They can see the entire candidates training background, selection screening and progress records. From these they can choose the cadets they feel are best suited. On top of this, they can return the cadet if things don't work out for whatever reason. As a cherry on the icing, the cadets also usually come with a built in bond attached for added security.

The risk is tempered by the quality of both the candidate and the training that candidate receives. This training is monitored and again the candidates whole progress history can be tracked. The methodology and record keeping is usually in the same or a similar format to that the airline uses themselves. The airline can input its own requirements into the training providers courses.

Before the recent recession and medium term down-cycle, the writing was already on the wall with regard to the growth of cadet programmes. As and when expansion returns, the growth will come through these programmes.

The name of the game if you want to be a 250 hour airline pilot, is succeed in securing a cadet placement through one of these programmes, or work your way up through a system that will allow you to apply at the traditional 2000 hour / 500 turbine level.

The industry has evolved and changed (not all of that change has been for the better.) To stand the best chance of success you need to change and adapt with it. Understanding what is happening is important.

[mark_c]

What a scam!!! I would feel safer as a PAX on a flight knowing that the folks at the controls got there through merit and hard work... Not daddy's money!! Shame on you easyJet!

[Bealzebub]

Most passengers only concern themselves with the price they have paid for their ticket, and that the flight arrives on time. Safety, maintenance and training are something of a given (and rightly so) in most peoples minds. I am afraid that "merit and hard work" are not enough in themselves to ensure the best chance of success, however they will also be required.

Flying is expensive, and if you want the best chance of an airline career with only 250 hours, it is very expensive!

Unless this airline has no intention or ability to fulfil the terms of the contract I very much doubt it is a scam. You (and others) may not think much of it, but not a scam.

If you drive up the road to your local airport you will see a lot of blue, yellow and white airliners owned by a locally based company. This airline was one of the pioneers in driving down input costs in the European airline marketplace. The vocal CEO of this company has made no secret of his desire to eliminate the F/O's role. If he can't do this, he doesn't see why cabin crew can't carry out the role as part of their duties. Failing that he doesn't see why people shouldn't pay as much as they are prepared to, in order for the chance to carry out the function. So far, the regulators have only not baulked at the final suggestion.

Competition can only remain as competition if they also reduce their own input costs. The answer for less "vocal" companies has been to seek out cost savings and flexibility through the controlled expansion of these cadet schemes. The risk falls on the applicants. It is expensive.

P.S. For those of you so contemptuous of "Daddy's money" it shouldn't be forgotten how much of that got you through the first two decades of your lives, in most cases. When you become "Daddy's" yourselves, you will understand.

[BusinessMan]

I haven't had a chance to read the scheme details yet but from what I've just read here - I will be very interested to see who ends up getting onto this scheme. There can't be many with 104k kicking around in current lending conditions from whom EZY can pick.

I still agree with Bealzebub's opinion that "...when expansion returns, the growth will come through these programmes" (or at least in time it will) but I had perhaps been naive in hoping that as they resurfaced the propositions might have been a bit more realistic than this. In particular regarding funding solutions.

Back to watching with interest...

[justagigolo77]

These companies are all 1 big spider web and you are all mosquitoes. Anyone who falls for this scam deserves to be bankrupt.

[HidekiTojo]

:eek:

We all know they will be inundated with applications, Shocking.

£104K @ 7% = Approx £1.2k per month for ten years. :\

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If people are willing and able to apply (and they will be) then this is just price discovery. The real wonder is just how much further this can go. £120k? £150k?

I have absolutely no idea where the money keeps flowing from?

Wanabees have been locked into financial arms race for some years now. It's sad but there is no end in sight that I can see.


WWW

[Poeli]

This is really going too far imo. How long do you have to pay back to the banks? +10 years?:ugh:

[stevop21]

I have absolutely no idea where the money keeps flowing from?
WWW This is the bit that I also cannot understand, you hear about these 18-19 year olds on these courses and I cannot understand how they can possibly secure such a large amount of funding.

The OAA website has been down for a bit, are there that many applications?!?! or perhaps it's just planned maintenance?

[stuckgear]

i'll have a wild stab in the dark as to where the money is coming from..

the early 20's groups are having a very tough spot looking for potential careers that could have some future solidity, some may have even been to university and obtained a descent degree, yet the job market is bleak.

step forward the FTO's with their shiny brochures and 'killer' websites... 'yes you too could be earning 100k+ PA plus as a commercial pilot, with a white shirt, smiling face and gold bars on your shoulders...'

.. so the parents are probably taking equity out of their homes or taking on additional debt themselves in order to give their children a solid start that could see them earning enough and founding a solid career.

Of course the FTO's dont give a flying fig if come the end, cadet isnt going to get a job, if they might it'll be working for what ever bone the cadet is thrown, with either a mountain of debt or the partents who were trying to give their children the best start they can loose their home/pension over it.

[flyboyweeksy]

We all have to take risks in order to achieve our goals. Some risks work out and others don't - it's all about a calculated risk.


As I see it there are risk on both sides:


The Individual - A financial risk with NO GUARANTEE of a job. However, it seems to me that OAA/Easyjet have put a rigorous selection procedure in place to select candidates that are likely to achieve extremely high standards and to be a lower training risk. The onus will then be on the individual to maintain high grades throughout the course and line training in order to gain employment with EZY/Parc.


OAA - They have put a selection procedure in place to ensure the lowest risk candidates are chosen. However, if they get it wrong and the individual is either chopped by OAA or Easyjet then OAA will do what is nescersary to transition that person over to a normal "(frozen) ATPL" at their expense.


So to the maths :-s


APP Course = £75k PLUS living expenses, PLUS a type rating (possibly). I believe a type rating ranges from £25k-£35k if self funded.


MPL Course = £85k INCLUDING a Type Rating, PLUS living expenses.


Taking all of the above into consideration and the potential gain at the end of the course I think I will be tempted to apply and invest in my future.


Good luck to everyone

[stuckgear]

jesus wept !

:ugh:

[Smell the Coffee]

Depends on the compensation details; if the offer is for a permanent, full-time job as FO with remuneration that allows the individual to live reasonably well after loan repayments, then it may be worthwile pursuing.

In the absence of that ...it's a poor investment.

[jersey145]

So to the maths :-s


APP Course = £75k PLUS living expenses, PLUS a type rating (possibly). I believe a type rating ranges from £25k-£35k if self funded.


MPL Course = £85k INCLUDING a Type Rating, PLUS living expenses.


Taking all of the above into consideration and the potential gain at the end of the course I think I will be tempted to apply and invest in my future.





but as howfly says....... how come FTE/FLYBE do it all for 80 Grand. no extra 18Grand for accomodation and living etc. That is included. Just bring beer money and swimming shorts. the beer does not cost 18 Gs in Spain.....unless you have a serious liver problem. I doubt it could be a lesser course, hence cheaper. The CAA would never have allowed it to happen.

And failed courses/TRs stickout a mile away when trying to move on. Ask any airline recruitment team. But at least i could have spent all that money to be an air taxi operator post CPL/IR conversion. Not that i see EZY having to drop people due to lack of flying posts. If anything, i see more of the courses running after this one.

Calculated risk indeed.

EZY and OAA are the winners here.

What are the pay scales for the rich....erhem...i mean successful?

[206Fan]

Poeli,

This is really going too far imo. How long do you have to pay back to the banks? +10 years?

Can't see that happening.

What bank in the United Kingdom is going to lend £104,000 to god knows how many wannabes for this shambles of a scheme?? None that I can see!

As already mentioned the only people that will be applying to this is ones with daddies money.


HidekiTojo,

£104K @ 7% = Approx £1.2k per month for ten years.

That just sent shivers down my spine.

[FANS]

It will be interesting how this impacts on CTC, which has long enjoyed a relationship with EZY.

Are we now at the stage where the airlines ask the FTOs to submit bids for how much they will be able to generate off each "student" in return for the airline granting the FTO such a scheme?

It really does show what little regard the airlines have for their first officers if this is the means of selection. In simple numbers, this means earning £150k gross to pay back the £100k.

It's unbelievable that we are back to the days of "paying for your commission."

[kingofkabul]

Compensation details are out - it's flexicrew conditions. There is a gurantee of min 200 hours in the winter. Based on 750 hours a year and 4 standbys a month one should be compensated with £46,000 p.a.

The hourly rate increases after 500 hours and 1500 hours. I believe the rates are 50/55/67 from another post but don't quote me. This means one should expect £62,000 p.a. after 2 years. No gurantees ofcourse.

Still the initial outlay is just too high for me. Good luck for anyone who can afford this!

[stuckgear]

As I see it there are risk on both sides:


The Individual - A financial risk with NO GUARANTEE of a job. However, it seems to me that OAA/Easyjet have put a rigorous selection procedure in place to select candidates that are likely to achieve extremely high standards and to be a lower training risk. The onus will then be on the individual to maintain high grades throughout the course and line training in order to gain employment with EZY/Parc.


OAA - They have put a selection procedure in place to ensure the lowest risk candidates are chosen. However, if they get it wrong and the individual is either chopped by OAA or Easyjet then OAA will do what is nescersary to transition that person over to a normal "(frozen) ATPL" at their expense.


So to the maths :-s


APP Course = £75k PLUS living expenses, PLUS a type rating (possibly). I believe a type rating ranges from £25k-£35k if self funded.


MPL Course = £85k INCLUDING a Type Rating, PLUS living expenses.


Taking all of the above into consideration and the potential gain at the end of the course I think I will be tempted to apply and invest in my future.



So, by your assertion, the cadet is taking on the financial risk of the MPL, that can only be used for one operator, EZ.

If the cadet craps out at any stage, they will be dumped off the MPL to, not an ATPL as you state, but a CPL/ME/IR with ATPL theory course. Will that include a TR or will the cadet have to cough up extra for that ?

flyboyweeksy, if you consider the scheme to be calculated risk worthy of consideration i've got a nice bridge in Brooklyn for sale for you.

or are you a sock for OAA?

[v6g]

Quote:
£104K @ 7% = Approx £1.2k per month for ten years.
That just sent shivers down my spine.

Actually it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling. Knowing that there are still schmucks out there willing to work so hard, for so long, for so little reward, in such unpleasant working conditions, to pay me my dividends on my bank stocks.

That's the good scenario. If this little flutter doesn't turn out too well, then it's also heartening to know that their parents will either work for another 10 years or will sell their house to keep my dividends payments coming.

Either way, I'll still get paid.

Long may it continue. And the best bit is they're keeping the cost of my family vacations down with all their financial subsidies to the airlines!

Keep it coming!

[bangout]

Were bloody professionals who have worked hard to be in the position to apply.

The acceptance of whatever terms and costs for little reward, regardless of their financial implications, allows for a slow degredation of our terms.

Joining this scheme mereley exacerbates the problem.

[Complete Wannabe]

I am an aspiring wannabe looking to break into the industry and EZY scheme has caught my attention. To serve as a back up I did a degree in Mechanical Engineering and a Masters in Sustainable Energy, I now have a job with a booming company and on a program that is intended to propel me into middle management in a short space of time, with the goal being senior management in 10 years or so. I am on a much better salary than a new FO would be with pretty much no debt hanging over me. The company are paying for me to travel throughout the group internationally, it really is a great set up.

But its not what I want.

I covet the idea of getting into the RHS of a plane and working my way up to being captain. Its all I ever wanted. I'm not a sucker for the BS that FTO's throw at me. I'll be very wary before I commit to anything and do as much research as I can.
@bangout: The last thing us new fish want to do is undermine your profession by accepting appalling terms and conditions. I know you have worked hard to get where you are and deserve the salary and T&C's of days of old, but how else are the likes of me supposed to break into the industry. The FTO's and airlines have us by the short and curlies; they know our desire to get into the industry and, as pointed out before, the accountants that run the FTO's and airlines play on this to crunch down their expenditure and increase their recovery by offering us awful conditions at insanely high prices.

If I was to go for this scheme unfortunately Daddy has no money either so I'd have to back myself. I'm leaning towards 27 and would like to be trained and flying before I want to settle a bit and do the whole family and wife thing in my early 30's, so thieving schemes like the one's on offer seem to be my only chance of getting into the industry.

If there's a solution to boycotting these types of schemes and still landing a job, and not joining the thousands of inexperienced unemployed pilots, I'm all ears. I welcome any thoughts or criticism!

[stuckgear]

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/wpa0649l.jpg

[bangout]

I'm 21, I'm a wannabie and I just got deselected as a pilot from the air force

Pretty much at rock bottom, but I'm not willing to have the p**s taken out of my perpetual enthusiam and drive with the sort of nonsense the FTOs are throwing at us ATM

[vikdream]

Can anyone clarify the total cost for the EZ MPL course without living costs? I read 85K and 104K, just wondering which was the right one...

Thx!

[ct8282]

Without living costs, £85k mate.

I'd love to now how many people have actually applied for this course??

[kingofkabul]

I asked OAA how many apps they expect and they estimated in excess of 500. I think that is a bit bullish given the high cost, we shall see. The BBVA loan is available (secured) with a 10 year repayment term.

[Denti]

85k sterling? Remember, both lufthansa and air berlin charge only 60k € for their MPLs (not upfront) and the job at the end might not be guaranteed, but so far everybody found a seat on either an airbus or boeing. Both have rigorous selection procedures as well. Only downside is the damn language...

[dbriglee]

Interesting!
I think they have edited the FAQs since posting the initial advert!

Now i cannot see anywhere relating to the £104K they said about in the beginning, with costing of accommodation etc .. (and im certain they said you HAVE to stay on site at Oxford, and planned out £210 a week staying in the halls of residence and food)

It's now changed though to say 85K, with a change to the accommodation of being able to live anywhere now, as it says.

This is just clever advertising! It's not 85K atall, it's 85K, PLUS , living at oxford, plus hotel cost at Gatwick.

What rubbish..... Anyone wanting to do this, cost it out. More like over 100K.

Oxford isnt cheap to rent either! 78 weeks, of which you will be in gatwick for 66 hours, 8 weeks, (so that is costing £1700, with the discounted hotels, B+B NOT lunch OR dinner... at gatwick airport, good luck with that!)

You have 70 weeks left, of costings they dont even talk about .
RUBBISH

[ct8282]

Interesting. Just been reading through the FAQ's again and things do seem to have changed a little. They have indeed removed the total values covering accommodation costs but do still mention that this needs to be factored in to overall costings.

However, when you consider that the A320 type training is also included in the total cost is this really too different to any other integrated course? Bear in mind that OAA's APP Integrated course is £72k (most FTO's are similar for integrated courses) and dosen't include a type rating it's actually all a much of a muchness after all, if not slightly better value for money! And in theory the MPL should see you right into the RHS of the Airbus and at a higher salary? Hmmm, starting to become more compelling the more I think about it.

However, I hate the way they keep referring to the selection process as a competition. I realise that's exactly what it is but just don't think it's productive to talk about it in the way they do....

"Please take appropriate care and check carefully for grammatical and spelling errors before you submit; remember, this is a competition where careless errors may count against you".

[flyer456]

Just to throw it out there, I'm a wannabe in the fortunate position of being able to fund this course with no more than a small loan.

And i'm not even going to apply. If I was sat on my ass in England right now I might, but as i have something productive to do elsewhere i'm going to sit this one out and hope a better proposition comes up in the next 12 months. Can't see it getting more rock bottom than that. 104k without any details of future employment terms. :eek:

[BusinessMan]

"bespoke secured loan from BBVA London to help with initial fees, available to UK residents" (from the OAA FAQs).

Anyone know the max amount BBVA will lend? Just curious, since I can't see it being anywhere near the required amount (?)

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I've had a read throught the Q&A on the OAA website. This is an abysmal deal. You just end up as a Parc contract pilot who has to work for easyjet.

The CTC cadet deal in 2004 was £60k. That was expensive enough. But that was it, all in, no extra crap like "oh by the way, its £210 a week to sleep in one of our dorms and eat in the canteen, and don't worry we will get you a discount on a hotel that we are already in bed with, you lucky, carefully selected, chosen few".

You're telling me that basically the same course I did 6 years ago is now £40k more expensive? Thats £40,000. Thats £100,000+ in total. For the priveledge of being a contract pilot on a random rape roster with easyjet. :hmm:

Ezy and Oxford are ripping you off. Schemes like this only exist while people are prepared to pay for them. I wouldn't touch it with a big stick covered in :mad:.

[hollingworthp]

I wouldn't imagine there is much of an upper limit on the BBVA loan as it is essentially a second mortgage - so as long as there is enough equity on a suitable property then you are set. (Although you want to be VERY certain you have a backup plan to meet the enormous repayments on £100k+)

[mark_c]

As far as i remember, when reading through the original FAQ's it was a requirement to occupy the oxford accomodation... That has also changed now you can stay in a carboard box outsite it if you want!! And after forking out that amount of money i wouldnt be surprised if people did :)

Its strange that they are changing the info on the FAQ page... Maybe they are reading this page and realising they :mad: up!

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

It would appear that as a contractor, they can put you off line for as long as they like, leaving you with nothing to show for your 100K or so. That is if they do this before 1500hrs. Before 1500hrs and achieving your ATPL, you have nowhere to go. You are restricted to EZY's AOC. you can't go flying for anyone else. Post 1500 hrs you are the same as any other ATPL holder. Contracting under these restrictions???? after forking our that money???? Yep you sure may have an A320 rating. But without an ATPL to your name, if they chop you, you be stuffed little Juan.

Happy contracting :E

[stuckgear]

I hate the way they keep referring to the selection process as a competition.


That's exactly what it is, a bit like X-Factor for aviation. 'Yes you too could be a hero pilot with gold bars on your shoulder, Making the big time flying for ever decreasing T&C's that we as an FTO are pushing down the toilet'.

And then when there's nothing left to milk you for, drop you like a hot brick.


It would appear that as a contractor, they can put you off line for as long as they like, leaving you with nothing to show for your 100K or so. That is if they do this before 1500hrs. Before 1500hrs and achieving your ATPL, you have nowhere to go. You are restricted to EZY's AOC. you can't go flying for anyone else.


Yep, Probably paid by block hour... I called that way back earlier in the thread. Of course the MPL's are going to be used and exploited for the company gain to the detriment of those willing sacrificial lambs. That's business.

[GeorgEGNT]

£104,000 secured on a parents house (surely the case for a sizeable chunk of applicants?)
No guarentee of employment at the end of it?
10 years to pay back £100k+ and interest?
Where do I sign? :}

If I actually did have £100k+ sat in my back pocket I still wouldnt touch this with a barge pole. Remind me why I want to be a part of this industry so much?

Best of luck to everyone applying anyway.

[student88]

Dear all,

If, like me, you're totally disinterested in this MPL scheme, please ignore this post.

However those of you who are interested in applying, please consider your fellow aviators before you apply - as by showing interest in this scheme, you'll be showing the likes of OAA, CTC and easyJet that wannabe pilots really are stupid enough to pay over the top prices for a professional qualification which is worth so much more to us in terms of decent working conditions, stable rosters, quality crew food and other associated benefits that (used to) come from working for an airline.

Save yourself the bother of circa £110,000 debt by going modular. No seriously, I'm not joking! You know that thing that Oxford and CTC probably told you wouldn't give you a hope in hells chance of getting an airline job? Well the truth is that they just tell you that so you come to them gagging for a position on one of their Top Gun-esque hero pilot courses. The truth is that you've probably got just as much of a chance of getting a pilot job as anyone else.

Why modular? Well there are lots of great reasons why to follow the likes of many captains who are flying for major airlines these days. (Yes, those guys who are taking you on holiday every year probably didn't go to OAA or CTC - they more than likely went modular).

Firstly you're going to save yourself tonnes of money by not paying for the FTOs big flashy sponsored conscription events like the one at Heathrow a few weeks ago. Oxford were giving out branded baseball caps and mugs with logos printed on - yep, thats your money being spent right there - not on your training, on their propaganda.

You'll be able to work whilst training. Who said you have to chuck all your training down on a massive slab of delicious debt? Why not try working for a while before you embark on what will be the most proving and testing few years of your life. Build up a great network of friends in the right places by going to work for an airline for a few years. Most of you are probably just about to finish A Levels. Why not enjoy life a little before haemorrhaging debt like an Icelandic bank?

Thirdly having to organise your own training and working schedule is going to show those future airlines that you're more than able to work to deadlines, to set yourself targets and to think outside the box when the poop hits the fan. I have many friends in the industry who are in influential positions within flight crew recruitment departments. The truth is, and not many people will tell you this, is that they're usually not too keen on those "model pilots" that CTC and OAA produce and that they've generally got more respect for the good guys who have made it on their own, through the highs, the lows and the chipped nails! They like the modular guys because they remind them of themselves when they were starting out - and thats going to work in your favour when the likes of Monarch, Jet 2, BMI regional/baby, BA City Flyer, Ryanair and easyJet inevitably get so desperate for pilots that they welcome invites from low hour lads and lasses.

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day. They're up to their eyeballs in debt, some have £80-100K they have to find. For the first 8 months of flying they're being paid a flat £1,200 after tax (yes thats not enough to pay the monthly loan repayments). After that magical 8 months they're then on to a lovely £43 per scheduled block hour. Scheduled NOT actual. What was printed on the roster. If you get stuck in Malaga for 8 hours you're working for free my friend. When you're sitting fat, dumb and happy in the middle of winter with 22 hours on your roster you're only going to be paid £946 for that months work - and thats before tax.

All I'm asking of you is to think about what you're letting yourself in for. If you're not going to think about yourself then please think about us, your fellow aviators. Over the last 10 years airlines have taken advantage of us, they recognised that some of us were happy to settle up with £100K debt. They saw this and ran for miles, which is why we've ended up here with a MPL scheme thats going to cost you £110K all inclusive.

By the way, you're better off getting yourself a real licence for much cheaper. A little birdie told me you can get a CPL ME IR and MCC for half the price (shh it's a secret!).

If that hasn't discouraged you, then I can see what you're thinking. You're sitting there in the right hand seat of an A319 about to push back from Gatwick to head down to Faro. You've got your 2 silver stripes on your shoulders and your RayBans in close range. You're living a dream, and that's all it is. It's not a dream, it's dire, and it's only going to get worse and worse. The reason why? Things like this horrendous scheme brought to you by the bad guys.

They're only interested in your money, they don't care about you - at the end of the day you're just a number to them, if you pass your exams and get a good average you'll be a very good number to them, but that is all.

Don't be that person. Please.

[justagigolo77]

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day

I dont think it could have been said any better than that mr. 88! Well done!
:ok:

[Bealzebub]

If, like me, you're totally disinterested in this MPL scheme, please ignore this post.

If you are so disinterested in the scheme and have no experience of it, why write it and then suggest that only people who are interested should pay attention to your musings?

However those of you who are interested in applying, please consider your fellow aviators before you apply - as by showing interest in this scheme, you'll be showing the likes of OAA, CTC and easyJet that wannabe pilots really are stupid enough to pay over the top prices for a professional qualification which is worth so much more to us in terms of decent working conditions, stable rosters, quality crew food and other associated benefits that (used to) come from working for an airline.

The idea of the scheme is that it is more than just a "professional qualification." It is intended that the full time approved course of study should provide the necessary skill set for cadet airline entry with only around 200 hours. That is no simple or easy task. Far and away the majority of 250 hour (I did it my way) CPL/IR holders, would be significantly out of their depth assuming a jet aircraft first officers role at this level of experience, without the screening, training and tailored career plan that these schemes are geared to.

Quite what they have to do with "crew food" and "stable rosters," etc. I have no idea. That may be more of a general issue with your own employers terms and conditions that goes well beyond the subject of cadet employment? If you are suggesting that these cadet schemes are yet another attempt at reducing input costs, then yes they undoubtably are. However, if that was the driving force, then they would open their doors to all and sundry. They don't. Most other airlines don't either. There are reasons for that. The prime reason is that a CPL/IR and 250 odd hours, simply isn't enough requisite experience for this type of employment generally. If it was, they would all be at it.

Save yourself the bother of circa £110,000 debt by going modular. No seriously, I'm not joking! You know that thing that Oxford and CTC probably told you wouldn't give you a hope in hells chance of getting an airline job? Well the truth is that they just tell you that so you come to them gagging for a position on one of their Top Gun-esque hero pilot courses. The truth is that you've probably got just as much of a chance of getting a pilot job as anyone else.

Yes, but again this patently ignores the fact that these schemes are geared towards low hour cadet airline employment. You are rather torturing your own argument when you know that your own employer utilizes these schemes for cadet entry employment and doesn't employ pilots from the routes you suggest at these low hour levels. I don't mean to be unkind, but that is why you are having these conversations with low houred cadets from these schemes within your own company, whilst you yourself are not flying for them.

Why modular? Well there are lots of great reasons why to follow the likes of many captains who are flying for major airlines these days. (Yes, those guys who are taking you on holiday every year probably didn't go to OAA or CTC - they more than likely went modular).

Yes, but captains have generally been in the game for some considerable time. Things have evolved over the last decade or so. Most of those captains had acquired significant levels of experience in other jobs before they had amassed the experience that made them contenders for airline employment as a junior first officer. A few made rapid advances through what were then known as "approved schools" however these were in essence the same major training establishments offering similar (equivalent level) programmes, to those you see today. Outside of them, nobody was (or could) qualify with only 250 hours. Indeed, even at the 700 hour minimum level, very few people qualified for airline employment as a pilot.

Thirdly having to organise your own training and working schedule is going to show those future airlines that you're more than able to work to deadlines, to set yourself targets and to think outside the box when the poop hits the fan. I have many friends in the industry who are in influential positions within flight crew recruitment departments. The truth is, and not many people will tell you this, is that they're usually not too keen on those "model pilots" that CTC and OAA produce and that they've generally got more respect for the good guys who have made it on their own, through the highs, the lows and the chipped nails! They like the modular guys because they remind them of themselves when they were starting out - and thats going to work in your favour when the likes of Monarch, Jet 2, BMI regional/baby, BA City Flyer, Ryanair and easyJet inevitably get so desperate for pilots that they welcome invites from low hour lads and lasses.

Quite where you have got this idea from, I am not too sure. Obviously it fits your own model, but I am afraid it just isn't true. There are thousands and thousands of low houred CPL/IR holders out there looking to advance their own careers. The only low houred cadets that your airline and most others are recruiting to any degree are the ones that those affiliated training schools produce. I have already stated the reason why. This "desperation" for pilots, of which you speak, is a fallacy. It is wishful thinking. In over the last three decades, I have never seen it. The whole training industry (including these MPL schemes) are being developed to provide an easy solution to any future increase in demand. If you don't believe that, stop ignoring what has happened and what is happening. Open your eyes and look at the investment that is taking place in these schemes. In fact don't even bother getting out of your chair, just look at what your own employer is doing with regards to the future employment of cadet pilots.

As the market picks up you will undoubtably see an expansion in these schemes as airlines utilize them to provide the cost savings, quality training, and flexibility that are now demanding, and will increasingly continue to demand.

I work for easyJet - and I talk to CTC/OAA pilots every day. They're up to their eyeballs in debt, some have £80-100K they have to find. For the first 8 months of flying they're being paid a flat £1,200 after tax (yes thats not enough to pay the monthly loan repayments). After that magical 8 months they're then on to a lovely £43 per scheduled block hour. Scheduled NOT actual. What was printed on the roster. If you get stuck in Malaga for 8 hours you're working for free my friend. When you're sitting fat, dumb and happy in the middle of winter with 22 hours on your roster you're only going to be paid £946 for that months work - and thats before tax.

Yes, but again they are working as pilots, you aren't! I have flown with cadets from these programmes for the last 15 years. They are on significantly better terms and conditions. Obviously, in recent years there has been a dearth of employment opportunities. Those companies with opportunities (such as yours) have been able to take advantage of the laws of supply and demand to their advantage. Times are tough. I am sure there are many cadets struggling to manage on the low remunaration rates your company offers. However they are flying Airbuses. They are building real experience. They are staying current. They are renewing their qualifications and ratings. Slowly (or possibly quickly) they are amassing the levels of jet experience that will take them to the next rung on the career ladder. That isn't happening while you do other (non-flying) jobs congratulating yourself on the money you have saved?

All I'm asking of you is to think about what you're letting yourself in for. If you're not going to think about yourself then please think about us, your fellow aviators. Over the last 10 years airlines have taken advantage of us, they recognised that some of us were happy to settle up with £100K debt. They saw this and ran for miles, which is why we've ended up here with a MPL scheme thats going to cost you £110K all inclusive.

Yes, anybody should think long and hard about what they are letting themselves in for. People need to research carefully and take a realistic standpoint. Unfortunetaly few do, or at least few seem to, if these forums are any sort of barometer. Far too many people indulge in wishful thinking, rather than looking at the reality of the market. Making the pieces fit by forcing them into the jigsaw, simply won't provide a satisfactory, relevant, or attractive picture.

By the way, you're better off getting yourself a real licence for much cheaper. A little birdie told me you can get a CPL ME IR and MCC for half the price (shh it's a secret!).

Yes, and then what are you going to do with it? You can save money. If you don't want fast track airline employment, then that might well be the way to go. If you are looking at a long term career plan, rather than a short term one, then that might be the way to go. If you want to do another job while you wait to advance your career plan, that might be the way to go. This is a pyramid. The fast track airline jobs (cadets) are hard to come by. If you intend trying out for one of them, brace yourself for the reality. If you want to join the ranks of thousands of others (and probably save money) the choices are much much wider.

If that hasn't discouraged you, then I can see what you're thinking. You're sitting there in the right hand seat of an A319 about to push back from Gatwick to head down to Faro. You've got your 2 silver stripes on your shoulders and your RayBans in close range. You're living a dream, and that's all it is. It's not a dream, it's dire, and it's only going to get worse and worse. The reason why? Things like this horrendous scheme brought to you by the bad guys.

The bad guys being your own employer presumably? Things are certainly bad at the moment. Your own employer has been one one of the few airlines to take on any sizeable number of cadets in recent years. Terms and conditions haven't simply gone through the floor for these cadets, they have done so for all pilots, and indeed all employees at all levels.

They're only interested in your money, they don't care about you - at the end of the day you're just a number to them, if you pass your exams and get a good average you'll be a very good number to them, but that is all.

That is business I am afraid. I don't suppose the electicity or gas company for whom I am a customer, really regard me as much else either, (although their literature might suggest otherwise.) The better ones want to develop a good reputation for customer service and placement because it is in their interests to do so, however they can't change the realities of the marketplace.


Don't be that person. Please.

Why? Because you aren't? Because you consider it hinders your own prospects? Nobody should ever underestimate the difficulty, cost, and risk of embarking on this career. That is only amplified in an economic downturn, but it is and always has been the reality.

Money is a tool. If you have that tool it often ables you to do things and make choices that aren't necessarily available to others. For those without the tool, it may be necessary to borrow. Likewise it may be necessary to improvise or utilise a slower method of construction. More often than not, the posession of that tool is what will dictate the subsequent course of action. Because you don't have it, or elect not to use it, doesn't mean that somebody else shouldn't.

As I have said many times before, you need to understand what it is you want from the choices you make.

[justagigolo77]

Bealzebub....what a load of S:mad:T you spew! Who are you trying to convince, you or us? Obviously you or someone close to you has fallen for these scams and are trying to justify it.

[Bealzebub]

Bealzebub....what a load of S:mad:T you spew! Who are you trying to convince, you or us? Obviously you or someone close to you has fallen for these scams and are trying to justify it.

I am afraid your customary bad temper is misdirected. I am telling you the way it is, and why it is, the way it is. It bothers me little whether you like it or not, or if you want to put your fingers in your ears and run around in circles.

I have flown wth a lot of people from these training schemes almost from their inception. I have seen cadet first officers from these "scams" as you call them, go on to become captains, training captains, and company managers. I can vouch for the quality of the cadets, and can absolutely understand why low hour cadet recruitment is from these sources.

You don't like the fact that it is increasingly becoming the norm for airline cadet recruitment? Well that is a crying shame, but it doesn't change the reality.

It doesn't bother me what you or anybody else decide to do. I am speaking from an advantageous viewpoint. Ignore it with pleasure. I don't mind. However it is the advice I give my own children, it is based on significant experience, and it is accurate and honest.

I am not sure who the "us" you refer to is? Convince you? I couldn't care less. The intention is to provide a qualified and balanced viewpoint without any personal advantage or any axe to grind. Hopefully a position you find yourself in one day.

[FANS]

Bealzebub - can you please clarify if you have any connection to the integrated schools?

[Bealzebub]

I work with pilots who either are or have been cadet entry pilots through these schemes, and have done so for many years. For pilots seriously contemplating an airline career at the 250 hour level this is pretty much the only game in town.

I do not work for, nor draw any benefit from any flying school or third party training provider.

If you want me to say that airline employment is likely for 250 hour CPL/IR holders outside of one of these schemes if they just wait long enough, then I am more than happy to do that. However it just isn't true. It never has been, and there is nothing to suggest it will be in the foreseeable future.

The best entry advice is either work your way up to the required direct entry experience levels (typically 2000 hours and 500 hours turbine experience,) or get accepted on to an affiliated cadet programme. If you don't think that is accurate advice, then do what you like. These companies have boxes full of CV's (resumes) that dont meet the minimum criteria, and will never see the light of day. This is simply because they have boxes full of CV's that do meet, and often significantly exceed the minimum criteria, and only a few of these will be considered for second stage interview.

I am not selling you something. I am simply telling you something. If you don't want to hear it, or don't believe it, then that is fine.

[captainsuperstorm]

why do you care anyway?, we all know they use the "carrot" to attract sons of dad who has pockets filled with gold!

they don't even know what mean work and save.They never worked in their life, 6they dont have even a profession or a uni degree.
Is this the kind of people what easyjet want?just a bunch of spoiled kids?
after their 500h, total 700, Easyjet will kick them out to keep the seat for a new sucker.
with a MPL, you can go nowhere! you can not even fly a piper!:ouch:

once you get experience, airlines prefer to kick you out. You don't cost anything, experience worths ****, specially on these automatic planes like the A319, and they can make money with another desperate pilots.

modular= less money, no job at the end.

integrated MPL=no money left, some hours on the bus paid ****, and then unemployed with a udge loan to pay back.

what a choice!:ugh:

[Smell the Coffee]

I don't think we should berate Bealzebub for calling a spade a spade ... I welcome his contributions.

Sometimes the truth is uncomfortable, but it is nonetheless the truth - and the sooner we accept it, the sooner we can all get on with enjoying our lives.

I work for a Big Airline in a job that sees me fly with flightcrew on longhaul flights on a weekly basis - I have had PLENTY of opportunity to speak to flightcrew regarding their thoughts on training to become a professional pilot. I have even spoken to the head of pilot recruitment for this Big Airline.

All I can say is that they back up the comments provided by Bealzebub.

Applying for the easyJet MPL cadet programme is only one path to becoming a pilot. If it doesn't suit your circumstances or you don't agree with the conditions, then don't apply.

Personally this programme wasn't for me, so I declined to apply.

But live, and let live...some people are prepared to pay for all of their own training, including type rating...fair enough. Such is life. Let's accept the way the world is, and move on...no one has been forced to apply to the scheme.

The airline industry has changed irrevocably over the last 10,20 ...30 years. It is constantly changing; but short of being able to power aircraft engines on some cheap alternative fuel, or society being prepeared to pay a lot more for air travel, I can't see us going back to the days of fully-sponsored training in the UK (even then, airlines would get their investment back from you in one form or another).

I'm aware that there are companies out there that do pay for a portion, or indeed the entire cost of a cadet's training up-front (Lufthansa, Emirates, Cathay and so on), but each company's circumstances are different - who knows what tax breaks or other incentives those companies may have to pay on their cadets' behalf up-front. Either way, the student pilot will end up paying in one form or another. True, a company bond may be preferable to a commercial loan, which is why some schemes are better than others ...

More preferable still is just being plain rich, buying your own aircraft and flying for fun. :}

[Bealzebub]

Whatever you have to tell yourself Bealzebub...there are plenty of opportunities for those that want to work for them and earn their way up. Suggesting that there arent is very shortsighted.

The problem lies with the immediate satisfaction required in todays lifestyle and the need to have "it" now, not 2-3 years from now! The sense of entitlement and the greedy companies that are feeding on this are killing the pilot profession.

Are any of these "academies" not for profit companies?

Didnt think so!

Like so many angry people, you hear (or in this case read) want you want to hear. I haven't touched on the subject of "opportunities" for people working their way up. You have! In your posting history, it has pretty much been a rhetorical compilation of "you have done this", and "you have never done that", and other people are "douchebags" etc. etc. Even the last question you posted (above) was rhetorical.

The subject here is airline employment (in the UK for the most part,) and not flying around the African plains or the lakes of Northern Canada. Not only that, but it is airline employment for low hour commercial pilots (at the base 200 hour level.) It is a subject I have considerable knowledge of, in a real world context, and feel qualified to properly comment on. It doesn't bother me one tiny bit if people refute it or ignore it. I don't profit at all either way. What I am doing, is telling it the way it is. Not the way you (or anybody else) might wish it was, or the way you would like it to be, but simply the way it is.

If you want to discuss the "opportunities" for low houred pilots working their way up through the system, that is fine, but it isn't really relevant to these schemes or the subject matter of this thread is it? (and as you would say in accordance with your customary rhetoric)...No, I didn't think so!"

If you let the chip on your shoulder heal for a while, assessed your own myopia, and took the time to read, you would realize that I have always highlighted the usual career paths towards airline pilot employment. One of those paths is to increase the level of personal experience whereby you qualify for the usual 2000 hour 500 turbine qualification. For many people that path is not as easy as it might sound either, but again that is for discussion in another thread.

What we are addressing here is airline cadet employment at the 250 hour level. Far too many people believe that no matter how they acquire the CPL/IR and those 250 hours, they are still likely to qualify for this type of employment. That just isn't true. Far from encouraging people to believe something, I am (if anything) doing the opposite. The only real airline pilot employment opportunities at this level of experience, are through the cadet schemes, and in turn those schemes are run through a few integrated training providers. They are not run in Florida. They are not run on the Canadian lakes, and they not run on the African veldt.

Even before the recent recession a growing number of UK (and other countries) airlines were taking on entry level cadets into their employment structures. The cadets needed to have completed a full time course of approved training at whatever school that programme affiliated itself with. Pre-selection, training and presentation was (and is) usually carried out by the school. The syllabus the individual follows, the training records and progress are all monitored by the customer airlines. The cadet is a known quantity to the airline when they start employment training. There is some degree of guarantee, flexibility, assurance and cost saving for the airline customer. Historically the cadet as an end product has been good, and presented few if any problems.

So when somebody asks the question, "How do I become an airline first officer with only 250 hours?" The answer must sensibly be, through one of these schemes. How much it costs, or what debts you might incur is already highlighted in general discussion without me necessarily reinforcing the financial risks involved (although I have done many times.) If somebody wants to say, "No go modular" or "No fly the Canadian lakes for a few years" or whatever, that is fine. However it doesn't answer the question.

Whatever your moralistic preachings, or views on the greed of companies, or the state of the industry, may be. None of that changes the reality of the marketplace, nor will it. I am stating the way it is, so people can make their own informed choice. It doesn't concern me what choice they make, or what their situation is or might be as a result of those choices. I didn't create this situation, however I have seen it evolve over the last 30 years.

A lot of people here believe that their own future model is the way forward, either because they truly believe that, or because they are already commited to it. As such, their advice centres on what other people have said, or general hearsay, or what they hope might happen. Inevitably some get very annoyed when the facts get in the way of some of the popular fiction.

The company I work for has just recruited for this year. The company is representative of the broader airline industry generally. This year we have taken on around 20 new first officers. About half of that number are experienced pilots (as already defined). The remainder are cadets through an established affiliated training provider. None are 250 hour wannabes from any other source.

Look again at the title of this thread, and tell me what it is you don't understand?

[Hezza]

I used to be a member of the camp advocating the cheaper modular route, and even started following that route - upto PPL. However, the simple fact - the fact which you are berating Beazlebub for - is that if you want to fly in the airlines, in the UK, without spending years earning a minimum wage, then you have to join one of the airline cadet schemes, through an integrated school. It's not Beazlebub's deranged and offensive opinion, it's a fact.

From a purely financial stand point the integrated courses are also quite easy to make an argument for. From the date the blue ATPL license is issued [modular pilot] may have saved £50k versus [integrated pilot], but over the next 10 years I would suggest the vast majority, if not all of that difference is made back... [modular pilot] works at his local flying club for 3 years earning almost nothing, before moving (if he gets a lucky break) to the RHS of a turbo-prop. Meanwhile, [integrated pilot] has spent a few years earning a still un-impressive, yet far higher wage, before moving with his 1500hrs to a legacy carrier, or a nice pay scale within his low-cost airline.

For me, the debate is not about how to train - a NZ based integrated course will be receiving my application - but about whether it is all worth it at all!

[Albanian Seahorse]

Except you're wrong, Studi, and Hezza is right.

Integrated is definitely not the only route into aviaiton, or the airlines, but you are placed ahead of the game... significantly. It's a fact that the airlines prefer an integrated student from a good school than a modular student. The better career prospects and the extra money earned are easily, easily worth it.

This forum is littered with horror stories of those who have payed for training and can't find a job. They now have to work somewhere else, struggling for ends meat, and struggling to keep licenses current. I personally would do anything to avoid that situation, even if it means paying £40,000 extra to be competitively placed when job-hunting. If you're actually good at what you do, the difference in cost will be made up through better earnings in just 2/3 years.

Look around at all the big boy jobs going with the LH carriers at the moment. Have a look at how employable you are with either a 737 or any Airbus type rating. So what if you have to slum it for a few years with Ryanair or Easy, soon you'll be one of the most employable people out there.

So no, it's not toying with people's dreams, in fact it's giving the lucky ones who can afford such a course that best possible chance of achieving them.

[Callum Riseley]

I never really post on pprune and I normally sit on the sidelines and observe, but I just wanted to clear a few things up! I can't remember exact figures as the FAQ's have been removed from the OAA website now.

Firstly, the contract that the pilot would be on at easyJet is actually very good.. I think the wage is about £50 per hour which increases when you build up experience. It works out at around £38,000 minimum but with standby pay and the flexible contract this can go up by quite a bit if you are flying the maximum amount of hours over the summer. If you pay the BBVA loan off at a rate of £10-12k a year you will still have a very healthy £25-30k left. I don't see how this can be classified as slave work.. perhaps I'm just naive.. yeah that salary is nothing in comparison to BA, Lufthansa, Emirates etc. but in terms of a salary it's still a decent amount of money and a young first officer would be able to live off of it.

There is also a winter hours guarantee which basically means you will be payed for 200 hours over the winter period if you do less than 200 hours. However, if you do more than 200 hours you will be payed however much you should be. This works out as about £3300 per month as it is split over two 3 month periods. 200*50/3=£3333. If you take away the loan repayment from that you are still left with plenty of money to spend on getting fat over Christmas and heating the house.

You'd also have to take into account that with this course, unless anything happens that shouldn't happen, you will start line training almost straight after graduating from OAA with your type rating. Well, this takes what 8 months? And for that period of time you will only recieve a basic training allowance I believe. But, you don't have to start loan repayments until 18 months after graduation which means for the first approx. 5-10 months of a full wage you can get some money under your belt to support yourself if there are any months where you encounter any problems.

Yes, the course itself is very expensive but I just don't see how anybody can say this is a form of slavery.

[captainsuperstorm]

you really believe they will keep you on the roster, when they have a line of desperate pilots waiting to take your seat after their T/R?.
They will kick you out of the cockpit after 2-3 months and without a company' contract which guaranty you a minimum salary , you can do nothing.
Then good luck with your useless 700h total,useless 500h on A319 (not even A320/321).
Where do you go after? wizzair :{

be real, no airline will keep a seat for you for a living, when they can make money from it.
They will never pay pilots,a right hand seat means Euromoney coming from naive wanabes!
Soon captains will have to pay if they want keep their "job". Soon the will sell 3000h, with captain line training. It happens already in some airlines where captain pay to fly!

who's next with his fat cheque?:E get the EJ carrot before someone get it!Carrots are orange by the way!:hmm:

[clanger32]

Callum,
the one thing that you've forgotten is that nice Mr Taxman will come along and demand a nice big fat chunk of that. I don't know - as I have no interest - what the terms of the deal are and in previous "mentored" schemes the renumeration has included some form of tax deductable loan repayment, but this sounds like Loan repayment is yours alone.

Therefore, consider that you're going to lose £10k a year right away. IF you work the full hours they're suggesting you will. Now, you still feel you can pay off £10-£12k a year of loan and live comfortably on the £16k a year you have left? Now consider that you'll be doing well to find a place to live for less than £1k a month (once you add on bills etc) [alright, you might be able to rent "a room" for less - but i'd still guess £500 a month]

Now consider that you probably will want to live some way away from your base - just to "get away from work" at the end of the day, so you'll need to travel to work. Current fuel prices? Well, it cost me £85 to fill up the other day. Assume you live 10 miles from the airfield - 20 miles a day. 5 on 4 off, that's probably another £100 a month on fuel. Then you have to tax, insure and buy your car. let's say you get away with car running costs of £200 a month [you'd be doing well, even for a banger].... you've just spent £14400 a year just providing a roof for yourself and getting to work. You've got the princely sum of £1600 to "live" on - buy food, go out, have a social life, save for the future - for your retirement. Still think it's a good deal?

I'm not trying to decry it - the benefit of these type deals is that you have the job to go to - and that's by far the hardest part of the training. I would encourage ANYONE wanting to fly for a living to de-risk the exercise by going through one of these type of schemes if they can. Just do NOT think you're going to find it a breeze...Financially, if you fund the whole thing from loan, you're going to be in a huge amount of pain financially for the next ten years, easily.

Oh - and the figures are probably very optimistic - you're more likely to be spending nearer £3-400 on travel all in...not to mention your staff car park, uniform, etc etc.

[veetwo]

Sure, technically you might be able to live off this wage but lets not pretend it's a good deal compared to even a few years ago because it is not. Ultimately you will find that it is very difficult to live off 38k gross. A few years ago I found it difficult to live down south on 45k after the taxman, the student loans company, flying loan, repayments to parents, rent, bills and, increasingly these days, petrol. I almost invariably ended up using a credit card by the end of the month and not for anything luxurious romantic or extravagant! The big killer is the flying debt which soaked up nearly £1250/month (interest rates were, admittedly, higher back then).

Bear in mind I was a single guy with no other responsibilities. If you have kids its really not gonna cut the mustard.


Disclaimer: If you live like a hermit and never go out or do anything remotely enjoyable you will probably be fine.

[Pilot's Wings]

We should be advised today whether or not we are invited to attend phase 2, right ?

[alphalima]

I received an email a little while ago.
Unfortunately I didn't get passed the initial screening.
Anyone know what they are looking for exactly in the initial screening?
I knew I couldn't afford it, nor do I completely believe in this scheme, but I just wanted to see how it goes.

[flying officer kite]

I received a reply and have been invited for the interview with them. The problem is I dont come from a family where money like that can be easily got, and I wouldnt gamble everything my family have on something like this, so I dont know if its worth going now??

I work hard and have saved hard but im not quite there yet, what should I do?

[Bealzebub]

How on Earth are people who have never had a moments involvement with a professional pilots career somehow responsible for the current requirements of the industry? Of course they are not to blame. If you read what they have written, most are concerned that the debt burden, or the raising of surity would preclude an application. What exactly are they supposed to "be ashamed of themselves" for?

We have just taken on around 10 cadets from what you describe as a "scam" and we have taken on a similar number of experienced pilots. In both cases the contracts are (untypically) temporary and seasonal. The likelyhood of them (all) becoming permanent, depends on the market conditions prevailing at the end of the current season. As such, there is obviously a significant degree of risk and uncertainty. However that risk affects both pilot groups.

The experienced recruits are on a starting salary of around £4000 per month before tax or additional emoluments.

The cadets are on a starting salary of around £3150 per month before tax or additional emoluments.

After around 24 months both groups merge onto the same salary band, which by then is around £4300 per month before tax and additional emoluments.

The cadets with training loans can opt to have the company deduct the loan repayments from their salary (which is tax advantageous) to the tune of £1000 for 84 months (assuming that is the sum they have borrowed.) That then reduces their salary (as given above) by £1000 per month gross for 7 years (unless they elect to settle the loan earlier.)

So a new cadet first officer would expect to earn £2150 a month for the first year plus allowances less taxes, with their loan repayments repaid by the company. That is a net wage (after loan repayments, tax and National insurance) of around £1770 per month plus emoluments. Typically I would expect those emoluments to include a cash element of around £530 per month conservatively. Giving a take home wage of around £2300 per month in the first year. Meals at work provided, free uniforms, free car parking, insurance and health benefits.

It is not a fortune, but that is year 1. This is a first officer with a mere 250 hours or so, who can expect to amass around 700 hours a year on a modern jet transport. Their medicals, and renewals will be paid for, and there is a very good chance (based on past trends and current forecasts) that they will have their contracts made permanent in the future. However it has to be stressed past performance is no guarantee of future benefits. These pilots can then expect staged salary increases on an annual basis up to a figure of around £10,000 per month before tax and plus emoluments, over a 20 year career.

Now at the cadet entry level, managing on a first year take home wage of £530 (US$ 860) a week may not be a kings ransom, but it is most certainly liveable. We have been taking cadets on similar terms for over a decade and almost all have been kept on.

Obviously different companies have different terms and conditions that suit themselves and the marketplace. There is no guarantee whatsoever that somebody graduating from one of these schemes will find an employment placement in a short timescale. There is no guarantee that somebody will pass the course, (although there are some limited financial safeguards in the event of none voluntary termination I believe.) In recent years a lot of graduates have found themselves sitting in so called "Holding pools," which simply means there are no companies to place them with in the short term. All of these risks need to be considered very carefully by anybody borrowing money, or otherwise considering embarking on this route.

It is my considered opinion that anybody considering this route satisfies themselves that in the (quite likely) event of not obtaining any sort of airline placement at the conclusion, for some considerable time, has the resource, guarantors and ability to be able to repay the loans in any event.

It is most certainly a risk, but a "scam"? Of course it isn't.

[Bealzebub]

Then that is your opinion, and clearly nothing must get in the way of that.

If you are "modular" you won't get a look in with most airline companies without 1500-2000 hours including 500 hours turbine time. I am not sure how easy that will be, or how much it might cost you, or how long it will take, but if it is cheaper, then yes go for it.

I am not sure that you really understand how the cadet system works, as your questions don't make a lot of sense? The holding pool is the training schools not the airline customers. The loan is the students and not the airline companies. If the employment terminates, the company makes no further payments in respect of the loan, as that is a condition of employment (obviously).

I can't really pick through the rest of the rant, but on the point about passing the same tests. Yes they do, but the structure of the course is also geared towards early airline entry. The teaching methodology, the operations facilities, the syllabus and the flight training is nearly all done in an airline format. It has to be in order to facilitate a successful transistion at this level of experience. The customer airlines usually have an input in the syllabus and monitor the training. Obviously there is a seamless progression when one training school provides this. Contrast this with "where is the cheapest place to do this bit and that bit?" and "where is the cheapest place to rent a cessna and make holes in the sky?" and some "dodgy looking chap in Florida sold me a type rating and ran off with my money," that seems to be a recurring theme on some of these forums.

Of course it isn't always that way, but also it isn't what these airline companies want in their limited cadet schemes. In all fairness if you want to crusade against some of the real "scam" artists, you would find fertile territory in some of these "modular" providers.

In any event, it doesn't change the facts.

[captainsuperstorm]

justagigolo is right.

before embarking on such training, I would recommend you to see a lawyer, get your contract in hand, and see what you can do in case the company kicks you out.

I know many guys who have lost their money and faith with all these unscrupulous flight schemes which in my point of view (with 20 years experience) sounds more a ponzy scheme than a flying scheme.

If the market was so good, and there was a need of pilots, airlines would employ already trained pilots. These types of scheme show what they only want: your money, and nothing else....

please mod ,don't erase my post, if you dont like the truth, PM me!

[Denti]

Bealzebub is right that there is currently a trend to take pilots from a certain flight school background in many airlines. Nearly all european legacy carriers run their own cadet schemes as well for exactly the same reasons, many of them at least partly sponsored. If they have to take direct entry pilots they do a very thorough assessment, one of the steps in that is of course what kind of training the applicant has received which will of course play a pretty big part in the decision if they invite that applicant for further testing.

However this easyjet thing is, especially in terms of financial risk , not a good investment. Check out the other cadet programs in europe or worldwide, learn a second language if you haven't already (secondary and tertiary language knowledge is required in most of europe to get your A levels) and apply elsewhere.

[stuckgear]

38k GBP gross and over 100k GBP debts is a horrible situation, especially if you consider that you are basically bound to one employer and he only gives you a contract where he has all the rights and you have all the duties.



That can be rephrased as *you* carry all the risk, and another party carries the return.



The risk/return tradeoff is the balance between the desire for the lowest possible risk and the highest possible return. This is demonstrated graphically in the chart below. A higher standard deviation means a higher risk and higher possible return.

A common misconception is that higher risk equals greater return. The risk/return tradeoff tells us that the higher risk gives us the possibility of higher returns. There are no guarantees. Just as risk means higher potential returns, it also means higher potential losses.

http://i.investopedia.com/inv/tutorials/site/concepts1_riskreturn.gif


Certain carriers are turning this on it head to benefit their own profit margins by reducing operational overheads, with the pilot carrying high risk for low return on investment. Conversely for the carrier in terms of investment it is low risk, high return.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Bealzebub is right, it's the only way in at the moment.

But...

At eJ we now have in the order of 500 flexi pilots who don't work for us but fly our aircraft. Here is the situation:


Some are paid £1200 for 8 months, then nothing for 2.5 months, then hourly.
Most have repayments of around £1000 pcm.
If you have any form of asset or security, then the bank will up the repayment to £1300, so you default and they will get the asset. Many have declared bankruptcy, ruining their financial lives for decades to come.
Those with no assets and unsecured loans are given smaller repayments, like £800. Still only £400 to live on.
You may live in LGW but will be based in GLA, while your Glaswegian mate will be based in LGW. You can't swap, because nobody cares.
Most are not given any leave, with some now having gone more than a year on random roster with not a single day of leave.
Selection has not been rigorous, resulting in a variable quality of cadet. This has changed a little now, since our serious incident, so expect the real possibility of being chopped in base training or line training.
The A320 series is a poor trainer. Some manage to get to grips with the basics of flight after a while, others don't.
Don't expect to end up on a proper contract with a proper employer. The abuse does not end with the cadet schemes - you may be offered a job eventually, but it may be on different terms to the existing employees.


I would advise someone to take on the MPL if, and only if:

You have £105,000 cash now that you are prepared to blow, with nothing to show for it at the end.
You are happy to be abused for many years.
You do not expect to earn what existing captains are earning now. Ever.
You are certain you have the entire skill set to see you through to becoming a good pilot.
You think that it's fair enough to work for significantly poorer terms and conditions than others around you.
You accept that others will blame (rightly or wrongly) you for the deterioration in T&Cs in the industry.
You are happy to never know what you are doing next month and never be able to get leave when you want.


It's barely worth it on a full captain's package.

Be wise.

[Dynamite95]

Hi all, this is my first post on PPRuNe :)

I've made it through to the initial stage of the selection process at OAA, with 2 days at Oxford Airport.

Was just wondering what I should expect to face? (they've referred me to an FAQ page which doesn't seem to be online at the moment, so any info would be greatly appreciated!)

Many thanks in advance

[Zippy Monster]

And still they come...

You have read the post just above your own, haven't you?

[rssfed23]

I've got through to stage 2

Waited 3 years on gaining "life experience" and saving some none

This thread has definitely given me some insight, and starting to think twice now

But I've also gotta ask; looking at all these "can't get a job" threads, with the slightly higher of getting an (admittedly "rubbish") job at the end - is the integrated (f)ATPL route any better in the current climate :s

It's gonna be a hard decision, with strong opinions on both sides

[redsnail]

It's a free world and it's your choice, but HundredPercentPlease is correct WRT the new contracts offered to CTC newbies.

[Bealzebub]

I know I called the truce Bealzebub, but why isn't it the young pilots fault?

Can you honestly tell me that guys like this are not destroying our profession?

Yes I can.

Let me take you back to the decade you were born in. The seventies.

Select and "approved" flight training schools provided what were the equivalent of todays integrated training courses, designed towards fast track airline employment. In those days outside of one of these courses the minimum hours requirement for a CPL was 700. Very few people were recruited outside of these integrated courses with a mere 700 hours. Most airlines set a mimimum standard of 1500-2000 hours with around a third of that total being on turbine powered aircraft. That also being pretty much what you still see today.

Integrated flight schools such as Hamble were providing an in house ab-initio airline course to their parent companies cadet programme, The parent was BEA and BOAC, later to become British airways.

Commercial flight schools such as CSE Oxford and AST Perth provided similar full time approved courses that in many cases were also used as the feed in programmes for a range of independent airline companies.

Hamble was eventually sold off and the cadet training passed on to one or other of the independent "approved" integrated schools.

This situation persisted through the cyclic economic peaks and troughs of the eighties, and nineties and into the new millennium.

These schools provided a limited number of cadets and also a number of integrated course trained pilots, into the general marketplace.

Most recruitment (in the independent sector) came from the established sources, those being the experienced career pilot and the military.

Were these people as supine as you suggest? Apparantly not, and there certainly was no outcry from the professional pilot workforce or the trade associations (unions.)

In the late nineties and through the next decade, changes in the regulation and licensing structure allowed a new and expanded set of training providers to come into the marketplace and offer integrated training courses. In a few cases these providers targetted two sets of customers. One was the potential trainee pilot market. The other was the airlines for whom they offered a cost effective cadet training programme. These schemes proved very successful by and large.

A consequence of the new regulation and licensing structure, meant that the old 700 hour (non-approved) CPL requirement, was changed to a mere 250 hours. This was to bring the requirements more into line with those that existed in most other ICAO member states, whereby the licence was more of an "aerial work" licence, rather than an airline qualification.

Many wannabes failed to understand the significance of that. To be fair they were encouraged to do so, by some of the outspoken proclamations of one or two high profile CEO's of the then newly created and rapidly expanding low cost carriers. Who can forget the vocally expressed desire to simply do away with first officers altogether? Likewise, the subsequent pronouncement that cabin crew could adequately fulfill the role with only basic training. No wonder the idea was fostered that airlines were all going to open the doors to anybody with 250 hours and a licence. However they didn't.

The cadet schemes which had been around for decades expanded. Then came the recession. On top of the rising levels of experienced pilot unemployment, and the overseas migration for work, the cadet training programmes also started to clogg up as the customer airlines stopped recruiting the graduates. The fiscal banking crisis caused unsecured lending to evaporate overnight and dark clouds loomed on the horizon.

So here we are today. The survivors are those that have been able to streamline and continue to sell their product, be that airlines, flying schools or indeed any other business. There are some signs of clouds breaking on the horizon.

As things pick up, so the previous status quo will start to resume. However that resumption will be an increase in employment oportunities for experienced pilots and cadets from integrated, affiliated training providers. That is where things were left off pre-recession. The cheap money has gone. It never was inexpensive, but now it will become more expensive, and the risk is likely to be considerable for some time to come.

Todays market is simply an evolution of that that existed in the seventies, the eighties, the nineties, the naughties, and right up to today and well into the foreseeable future. Did we all blame the cadets of those last four decades for whatever woes we might have suffered? No, we didn't. Were they supine for taking the opportunities available to them? No they weren't! Is it a dark and weak aspect of human nature to seek a scapegoat when we feel our personal security and comfort is somehow threatened, be that immigrants, people of other races, religions and nationalities? Unfortunetaly a few use it as their rallying cry.

Wannabes today are faced with a set of choices that are in fact simply an expansion and evolution of something that has been around for a very long time. If the managers, training captains, senior captains, captains, senior first officers, first officers and unions have seen a developing problem (as you would allege) and done nothing to prevent it, then I would suggest the supine behaviour doesn't rest with young trainees, cadets and wannabes. It would (if it exists) rest a little closer to home. These cadets are not destroying the profession, and attempting to blame them for the realities of todays marketplace is most certainly spineless behaviour in itself.

[Callum Riseley]

This is not the CTC Flexi-Crew scheme and is completely different. It is not a fixed term contract and there is a minimum winter hours guarantee in place. Loan repayments do not have to be payed off until 18 months after graduation. That 18 months will include 8 months during line training on a measly allowance and then onto the full hourly pay. The pilots can expect pay at a minimum of £40,000 a year. With a £90,000 loan that leaves one with about £25,000-£30,000 a year, plenty for the student to live off unless they are planning to buy a mansion and a BMW within the first year. I don't see how people like myself and other pilots can be blamed for decaying terms and conditions. If I didn't go to the next round of interviews/assessments and decided to make a stand then it would just go to somebody else.

[Ollie23]

I think this is a simple one from a wannabes perspective - read HundredPercentPlease's post. Decide whether you have the appetite & resources for this level of risk. If so, go for it.

[Callum Riseley]

Do easyJet pilots regularly find the debt gets on top of them and are unable to meet repayments?
Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

The OAA FAQ stated that this is not a 6 month temporary contract, although it didn't state that it was a permanent contract either. It did state that the pilot could expect about £40,000 a year minimum and standby pay on top of that and that there is a minimum winter hours guarantee. It also stated that the majority of the graduates from OAA that went off to easyJet are still working there and so it goes to show that they are not just seasonal contracts.

How much of this is true? Any easyJet first officers want to give some figures as to what they were earning in their first year and if there were any problems encountered making repayments?

[Bealzebub]

Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

Somebody else will be able to give you a better answer on the rest of your question, but dealing with the extract above....

The lender isn't interested in "gaining your asset" if by this you mean the property that is used to secure the loan. They are interested in selling you a loan that you repay in accordance with the terms of their contract. That loan is offered at a tied variable rate (usually 2.5% above base.) This means that it will float in accordance with changes in the Bank of England base lending rate, (currently at an all time historic low of only 0.5%, but almost guaranteed to rise over the near and medium term future, and quite likely that rise will be significant.) The loan is usually a deferred product, which means that you are given a payment holiday of 18 months, (and possibly a further partial payment holiday of up to 24 months.) However make no mistake, that is not an interest holiday. So while you are spending 18 months making no capital payments towards the loan, and up a further 24 months only making partial payments, the (variable) interest rate is being applied daily. When the time comes to start the capital repayments, you will owe considerably more than the principal sum you borrowed, and that new total will continue to have a floating rate applied to the outstanding balance for the life of the loan. You won't be able to accurately predict how much this sum will be, because it will depend on the variations that have taken place to the interest rate in the intervening period. Your monthly repayments are only an illustration based on the very low interest rates prevailing today. It is a fairly simple task to arm yourself with a mortgage amortization calculator (from numerous online sources,) and frighten yourself with the repayment figures if interest rates rise from the 3% quoted, to 5% or 6% or 7% or more.

It is highly unlikely that the bank will regard you as an adequate risk for the principal loan, since you will probably not have adequate levels of security or equity, or the likely ability to repay the loan in the event of not securing airline employment at the conclusion. They will require a guarantor (you have indicated that would be your parents.) They will then ensure that your parents security (property/home) has sufficient equity (net worth) after any other mortgages such that their loan is secured, plus an additional margin of around 40%. They will also want details of your guarantors income to satisfy themselves that they will be able to make the likely repayments in the event of your default. The security (property/home)after payments of around £1500 in set up charges and fees, then underwrites the loan legally, if both you and your guarantors default on the subsequent repayments. In other words if neither you or your guarantors could afford to make the repayments, they could and almost certainly would apply for a court order to sell the property in order to recover not only their outstanding loan amounts, but whatever legal costs, recovery charges and interest they might also be granted.

So however you might view the risk, your guarantors (parents) would need to satisfy themselves (and the bank) that they could assume the likely repayment schedule in the event you cannot. Only if they can do this, could you (or they) even begin to regard the risk as "minimal"

[captainsuperstorm]

How much of this is true? Any easyJet first officers want to give some figures as to what they were earning in their first year and if there were any problems encountered making repayments? these schools will tell you anything just to get your cash:oh:.
there is nothing wrong with repayment, if you can not, they take your house!!! don't think banks are on your side, they are here to make money. Repay or not repay, they will get all your money even if it take you 20 years to pay back. Have you watched the movie"payback"!

why they don't take the loan instead?, and you pay back the school or EJ instead?, why you have always to take the risk?.

they are here to make money from you.Most guys I know are now miserable, with a ton of debt to pay, living like gipsies...

is this what you want in your life, be a less than nothing just to seat your a$$ behind EFIS screens and play the airline pilot on a full automated aircraft?:yuk::yuk::yuk:
I don't think airlines will continue to pay pilots, if pilots agree to join these schemes around the world.In the near future, most copilots will have to pay.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Callum,

I shall have a go at answering some of your questions - but bear in mind that I am an eJ captain, albeit one who does other stuff at work that includes helping other pilots.


Do easyJet pilots regularly find the debt gets on top of them and are unable to meet repayments?

Not easyJet pilots, because they are on a fair salary.

What we are talking about, and what you are thinking of becoming, is a self-employed contract pilot being placed by (no doubt) Parc Aviation.

We have 500 such contract pilots, some from ARL (Airline Recruitment Ltd, part of CTC) and some from Parc (ex-Oxford pilots). Some of these pilots have had to wait in holding pools with no income, and so have run into financial difficulty. A good size handful have had to declare bankruptcy, because the bank (HSBC) have given them no option. Often though, it is because they may have a property too, which may be worth less than the debt they have on it - remember that some of the HSBC loans were secured, and during the training there has been a fall in property prices. If your repayments are more than your income, then you are bankrupt.

Many contract pilots secretly continue their old jobs on their days off, or stack shelves. Not legal, not clever, but it happens.

Are BBVA allowed to up the repayments in order to try and gain your asset?

Once you default on a loan, it's gloves off. It depends on how the bank views the outcome.

If you owe a bank £10,000 then it's your problem.
If you owe a bank £100,000 then it's the bank's problem, and it will go about "fixing" it.

I just want to know more about this loan. Having done the maths against the contract that OAA seem to be talking about there won't be any problem re-paying the loan, however my parents will be helping me raise security for the loan and so I need to be sure that the risk is minimal.

I believe the loan is secured (http://www.bbvauk.com/TLEU/tleu/jsp/uk/ing/pusted/pilot/index.jsp) against a more expensive property.

I have to assume that you are getting the loan because nobody else can afford to pay it out of their back pocket. So you are betting the farm (your parents farm to be exact) and I would say that the odds are feasible, but not great.

Chopped at Oxford: low risk, as you can work at it. Couple of bad PTs though...

Chopped during base training: high risk. If you can't land it, guys are being chopped at this point right now. Good guys, too.

Chopped during line training: low risk. Only a very small number fail to make it - many get lots of extra sectors but the vast majority make it through.

Chopped because you damage an aircraft: low risk, but it has happened.

Fail to get a contract because of "external factors": medium risk. You just never know what's going to happen. Another 9/11? Think about it.

Hope for the best, but you must plan for the worst. If you can't afford to fail, then maybe you can't afford it altogether.

The OAA FAQ stated that this is not a 6 month temporary contract, although it didn't state that it was a permanent contract either. It did state that the pilot could expect about £40,000 a year minimum and standby pay on top of that and that there is a minimum winter hours guarantee.

You are a contractor, and so can be dumped at the drop of a hat. No rights, no nothing. And what if you go sick? Or have an op and lose your medical for 6 months?

Here's an illustration of how contract pilots are treated. The FO was given just a short contract, and on his last day he checked his roster and found out that he had another month's work. He called his manager, and yes, he had been given another month. So he asked if that was the last one because he wanted to plan a holiday, and he was told "yes". So he booked the holiday. At the end of the next month, checked and sure enough, another month. He phoned the manager again to say he couldn't do it. "If you don't work this month, you will never work for easyJet again in your life".

If you get lucky and you are used as a contractor for a full year, expect about £38k less your loan repayments and tax. Do expect to be based anywhere, and don't forget to see what you get paid during your line training (I am not sure what the deal is then), given that there may be a long delay in training you. If we are short of trainers, then it is better to train someone who needs only a few sectors rather than an MPL who needs loads.

Be wary though. Companies with armies of contractors will want to have slightly too many (at no extra cost because they are paid by the hour) to allow maximum seasonal flexibility.

It also stated that the majority of the graduates from OAA that went off to easyJet are still working there and so it goes to show that they are not just seasonal contracts.

You are a contractor. If the wind changes direction....


If only we were taking on 1500 hour TP pilots. As employees. Then I would advise an integrated or modular course, a job on an ancient TP for a while and then DE to easyJet on the Airbus. Cheaper, less risk, better pilot, more fun, and you can fail earlier and not have to sell the folks gaff. You never know, but in a couple of years we may have returned to that type of recruitment. In the mean time, the gamble is yours.

Good luck, and if you need to PM me about anything more sensitive at any time, please do.

[PAPI-74]

Thanks...but no thanks.

[OA570]

Good morning to all of you my friends and especially to the rest of the wannabees who are in the same state looking for the most efficient solution to get there.

I have already applied for the scheme and I got through the the first screening. I was extremely happy until i found this thread. My question is, if you dont need the help of BBVA and with one way or another you can pay the scheme, would it still be that bad as you guys mention? I mean since you dont have to pay the 1200 bp pcm that somebody calculated would you still be working under the conditions of "slavery"?

[HundredPercentPlease]

OA570,

No, I think slavery is a bit harsh. When finally on the hourly rate (and assuming you are fit to work and the hours are offered to you), it is OK.

You will face hurdles, water traps and other barriers on your 2 year path, but if you are one of the ones that cross the finish line you will be a self employed contract pilot, with all the risk that entails.

There are many threads here about eJ contract pilots. However, one great thing about being a contract pilot is that you can grab the first real job that is offered to you. Many current eJ contract pilots have done just that, with other airlines.

As an MPL though, your type rating disallows that option.

Many hurdles, much risk, a lot of money, no options, questionable reward.

[OA570]

Thank you very much for your reply.
And why do you say that the type rating disallows the contract option?

[Bealzebub]

Flybe seem to have pioneered this scheme in the UK, and there is some additional information Here (http://www.flybe.com/pdf/Flybe_and_the_MPL-BeSafe.pdf) that might be worth reading for additional background.

On the subject of BBVA, if you don't need a loan then don't bother with it. As with most loans:

1)There is no guarantee you will qualify for it.
2)It will cost money to set up. (Around £1500)
3)It requires significant levels of legally assigned security. (In this case equity worth at least 40% more than the loan sum proposed.
4)Interest rates are variable.
5)There must be a back up plan for repayments to continue irrespective of your employment plans as a result of the course.
6) In effect, it is a second mortgage on a property. The ultimate liability resting with the security owner.

If you regard any aspect of this as "slavery" then you really shouldn't be considering it. Few people with any sense would voluntarily go to so much trouble and effort to put themselves in a position that they regarded as "slavery." If it doesn't sound reasonable to you at onset, it is unlikely to get better as time goes on.

[HundredPercentPlease]

And why do you say that the type rating disallows the contract option?

No - you will be a self-employed contract pilot, signed up with Parc Aviation. You will not be able to fly anywhere other than at easyJet for the first 1,500* hours, because your type rating is "tied" to easyJet. So it's not valid for any other operator.

So, our existing contract pilots can grab an offer of a permanent job with, say, BA after 500 hours, but you will not be able to.

Be double-aware! And just think how eJ may treat you, given that you are not governed by any employment laws or rights, and you are not allowed to go and fly elsewhere. Furthermore, because you will not be an employee, the union cannot help you either.

* have a look at the contract - I have heard that it's 2,000 hours with eJ/OAA/Parc, but I haven't had sight of the actual contract.

[OA570]

Thank you very much for those clarifications... I'll just call OAA to tell them that there is no assessment for me. This is getting more ridiculous post by post...

[HundredPercentPlease]

OA570,

Quite possibly a wise decision.

But don't despair - thoroughly investigate the various paths to getting a frozen ATPL. Then try and get a job with a turboprop outfit, where you are bonded for the type rating. With 1500+ hours of TP flying you will have learnt the basics of the trade and will be a viable option for the jet operators - assuming that by then they have seen sense and returned to recruiting 1500 hour TP pilots.

Can't promise it, but it is less of a risk and gives you more options. Something you will learn about later in the career... ;)

[Superpilot]

What Bealzebub has been saying throughout this thread concerning the sort of pilots UK airlines are interested in is true. The validity of the reasons behind it, I’m not sure of. This idea of an airlines' that pre-selection (and we tell you where to do your training thank you very much!) is the best method of hiring a new pilot into an airline is only because our airlines have not seriously employed alternative methods and are deliberately remaining ignorant of how modular training has evolved. This practice is a remnant of the old days and is a classic example of the old boys network looking after each other. It’s no surprise that airline recruitment chiefs are often best buddies with those who own the integrated flight schools (remind me how much CTC makes from EZY and EZY pilots someone?). In the face of such a lucrative relationship, why bother to explore alternative routes? It would be crap BUSINESS sense.

The more just and fair airlines of the world actually have proper recruitment departments who treat all suitably qualified pilots the same by offering a fair assessment opportunity to them regardless of training background. Unlike UK airlines, effort goes into assessing pilots for the job and not the ‘role’ (subservient muppets willing to accept awful contracts, with no guarantees of income, and free reign for the airline to abuse you whilst not lifting a single finger to do anything for you – like base you where you’d like to be based!).

Pre-selection, I thank you tremendously. Whilst I was clearly too thick to be accepted into CTC 5 years ago, I am proud it has resulted in an individual who has gained the life experience to know what a good deal in life is. Despite still looking for that first job, at least I have 0 debt, a house, a couple of cars and a fall-back career. Flying isn’t everything - CTC/EZY rely on guys who think it is. The irony of it all is that pre-selection is designed to highlight seriously bright individuals but obviously not bright enough to know what a financially insane offer looks like!

[Bealzebub]

What Bealzebub has been saying throughout this thread concerning the sort of pilots UK airlines are interested in is true. The validity of the reasons behind it, I’m not sure of. This idea of an airlines' that pre-selection (and we tell you where to do your training thank you very much!) is the best method of hiring a new pilot into an airline is only because our airlines have not seriously employed alternative methods and are deliberately remaining ignorant of how modular training has evolved. This practice is a remnant of the old days and is a classic example of the old boys network looking after each other. It’s no surprise that airline recruitment chiefs are often best buddies with those who own the integrated flight schools (remind me how much CTC makes from EZY and EZY pilots someone?). In the face of such a lucrative relationship, why bother to explore alternative routes? It would be crap BUSINESS sense.

I don't think for one minute that these companies are necessarily ignorant of how modular training has evolved. The point is that they do not generally regard a 250 hour CPL/IR holder as being sufficiently experienced for this type of operation. However with a cadet scheme they can utilize a small number of pilots with this level of experience provided they are satisfied that the training course and selection utilized is in accordance with what they both expect and require. They can see the candidates entire training and progress record from scratch, even before that candidate is considered for type rating training. The assessments from one affiliated school are likely to be consistent, verifiable and in a format the airline utilizes themselves.

As I say, a licence and 250 hours simply isn't enough in the vast majority of cases, for a succesful transistion into this type of operation. In days gone by, 700 hours and a licence wasn't usually considered enough either. It is important not to confuse the basic requirements, with the requirements these companies expect for their limited cadet programmes.

It is not a case of "hiring a new pilot into an airline." It is a case of bringing a cadet forward into the next stage of their advanced progression within that airline. It is a distinction that needs to be made and understood.

The more just and fair airlines of the world actually have proper recruitment departments who treat all suitably qualified pilots the same by offering a fair assessment opportunity to them regardless of training background. Unlike UK airlines, effort goes into assessing pilots for the job and not the ‘role’ (subservient muppets willing to accept awful contracts, with no guarantees of income, and free reign for the airline to abuse you whilst not lifting a single finger to do anything for you – like base you where you’d like to be based!).

The significant phrase here being "suitably qualified pilots." Most airlines do this. Suitably qualified normally being 1500-2000 hours and 500 hours on turbine powered aircraft. There are often allowances made for pilots from a military background, or those with significant experience on type. However this is broadly speaking what "suitably qualified" amounts to. With those requirements fulfilled, there is in fact a fairly good chance of being selected for an interview no matter what your training background. This is the level of attainment, when the playing field starts to level again. However again the distinction needs to be made that you are talking about suitably qualified pilots and not cadet programmes at this level.

Even at this level, it is probably "ambitious" to suppose that success will bring with it a plethora of wonderful contracts, guarantees of income, all encompassing pastoral care, and a veritable buffet of base choices.

Pre-selection, I thank you tremendously. Whilst I was clearly too thick to be accepted into CTC 5 years ago, I am proud it has resulted in an individual who has gained the life experience to know what a good deal in life is. Despite still looking for that first job, at least I have 0 debt, a house, a couple of cars and a fall-back career. Flying isn’t everything - CTC/EZY rely on guys who think it is. The irony of it all is that pre-selection is designed to highlight seriously bright individuals but obviously not bright enough to know what a financially insane offer looks like!

Yes, you are absolutely right, "flying isn't everything." Albeit tongue-in-cheek, you obviously know that not being selected for something often means little other than on that particular day the components didn't come together. No system is going to be right for everybody, and you can certainly argue that some of them are not right for most people. Obviously it boils down to a variable cocktail of ability, luck, money and choice. There is often more than one way to reach your destination, sometimes it simply takes longer.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A slight catch might be - and I can't be sure - that you need to unfreeze your ATPL in order to be released from the sponsoring-airline-only requirement of an MPL.

Unfreezing requires both 1,500 hours AND an LPC in the Sim. easyJet only conducts one sim a year in the LPC format. Every other sim is a Line Orientated Exercise. Therefore if at the end of your second year you passed your LPC sim but only had 1,499 hours you still wouldn't be able to unfreeze your ATPL. You'd have to wait another 12 months when you'd probably have 2,299hrs (another 800). I suspect that the only LPC that is allowed under MPL is one conducted by the training department of the sponsoring airline.

I don't KNOW if this is the case as this whole MPL thing is rather new territory.

But it would be wise to seek clarity in, say, an interview situation. You could potentially be bound by your MPL to the sponsoring airline where LOE sims are in use (presently just easyJet and BA I believe but probably becoming more widespread) for 3 years rather than 2 years of line flying.

3 years ain't that much different to 2 years but it would be worth checking this out.


At the end of a day its a job. My first flying job after I sat my ATPL's and passed my CPL paid me £8,500 in a year when I logged 960hrs of flying. Most commercial pilots worked an apprenticeship in some form or another.

Its always been difficult, expensive and risky.

It always will be.


WWW

[OA570]

Guys does anybody knows where I can find the flexi-crew terms and conditions?
Thank you in advance

[Callum Riseley]

Many thanks for the advice here guys. Teaches me to just look at figures on the flying school website, very naive. Maybe I will think twice about attending the assessment.

Fortunately I picked up German about 9 years ago and have a DLR test coming up soon which I am studying hard for with the possibility of Lufthansa, Cityline, Germanwings, Air Berlin and Austrian. I think it just sums up these integrated flying schools and the airlines that recruit from them that I have to pay £199 for an assessment and interview and will not know whether or not I'll be returning for a second day so can't really plan. Whereas with my DLR test in Germany I am having all my travel and accommodation expenses payed for me. Typical.

[rssfed23]

All the information posted is greatly appreciated, but I feel without knowing more details about the employment contract it's a bit early to make a fully informed decision (as others have requested) - hopefully more information will crop up soon and not just rumours/speculation

[captainsuperstorm]

well said study.

be ready to sleep in your car, or in a tent...
brush your teeth at the airport, eat sandwiches, and try to survive at the airport until you feel weak due to lack of protein/vitamins,....
Have fun when waking up at 0400 on the airport parking spot or live like a gypsie in a apartment filled with 3 another guys in your room.
maybe you can share your bed as well.When you are not in your bed, someone can use it. You will save money.

This is the life of a low cost pilot, then reach your 30 or 40 years old, come back to live with momy and dady and explain them how you can not find another job in aviation because you are too old, and you have not been able to save money.Then cry online, and complain why flight schools like oxford or CTC or ABC,... continue to hire students when there are thousand of unemployed pilots.Then it' s going your turn to look desperately for a job regardless of your few hundred hours on 319, which worth s...t !!!

welcome in aviation, son!!you have been sucked in a non return dream which will drive you to your end( maybe suicide!)

your duty time will be 11hours at least, you start at 5 am finish at 5 pm, or start at noon and finish around midnight.
6 legs a day, red eyes, tired everyday, next day you will hate your cockpit, being stuck in the front of the tube all day long, with **** food and **** toilet in the back.

When you fly the FMGC while waiting to push the knob at TOD, you will ask yourself why they don't pay you more, what would happen if you decide to leave.You will talk to your captain who don't give a **** about you, who will explain you it' s your problem...
Then you will "psychologically" resign and accept anything that come from management, even work for free. You will become miserable, and if you complain, management will tell you can leave if not happy with terms and conditions, (they don't care about you anyway).
They didn't invest in you. if you leave, they got 500 guys waiting for your seats, because in this profession your worth crap, my son!!!

Selections tests are there to make you believe you have been "selected"and you won't get another chance so you think it' s worth paying they amount they ask for. Be very careful, talk about it with real pilots, lawyer,... I bet 99% of people will tell you it' s crazy. when something sounds too nice, it's not true!

[HundredPercentPlease]

details about the employment contract

:confused:

Here at easyJet we really thought that there was no space below the currently very low bottom rung into which we could nail yet another even lower rung. But here we are, for whatever reason.

What makes you think you will get an employment contract, when none of the current 500 entrants on the OAA or CTC schemes get one? You will be self employed, my friend, self employed. Even the banner on the OAA website says you will be able to fly "with" easyJet, not "for" easyJet. Snag is that your license will be useless anywhere other than easyJet. So if they half the rate, what can you do? As a contractor, you will have to take it or leave it. Except with this scheme, you simply have to take it.

Hope for something similar to the current OAA flexicrew pilots.
Expect something worse.

[justagigolo77]

What makes you think you will get an employment contract, when none of the current 500 entrants on the OAA or CTC schemes get one? You will be self employed, my friend, self employed. Even the banner on the OAA website says you will be able to fly "with" easyJet, not "for" easyJet. Snag is that your license will be useless anywhere other than easyJet. So if they half the rate, what can you do? As a contractor, you will have to take it or leave it. Except with this scheme, you simply have to take it.



Bealzebub, lets see how you can spin this.

[Bealzebub]

Spin?

Another one liner non-sequitur.

I haven't "spun" anything, I have explained at some length how the "cadet" situation has evolved, and also why airlines take on the candidates that they do for these programmes. In part this is to counter your rather strange argument that the "demise of the industry" is somehow the fault of "spineless" aspirant airline pilots.

Other people are making their own points on the attractiveness or lack of, of this particular programme. I expect some of them have a better knowledge of the specifics, which adds a lot to the value of this particular thread, and in turn helps those who have an interest in this particular scheme.

However good or bad the scheme may be, it isn't the only one out there.

I thought I had stated clearly at post number 114:
I am not selling you something. I am simply telling you something. If you don't want to hear it, or don't believe it, then that is fine.
That position hasn't changed, so why would you now think that I would want to put a "spin" on the attractiveness or otherwise of this particular scheme?

[greyb33]

Having managed to get through to stage three of the recently run TCX cadet scheme which was run through FTE, I can safely say the conditions of this scheme are far worse. I was happy to take the risk if I had been offered a place on the TCX scheme, whereas I am sceptical about even attending the assessment for this one. Conditions for the TCX scheme were;You pay for you license during training you would be paid an allowance of £1000 PCM, once you finish your training you would be placed with flybe for two years before then going onto fly for TCX on a reasonable salary.This EZY scheme doesn't even come close; they are asking you to lay out 100k to be put on a contract which you can't walk away from as you can only fly for them due to the conditions of your MPL license. Personally I haven't got big enough pockets to take the risk, yes if it was a permanent contract being offered it would be a different story, but even then with the MPL license rather than the traditional APTL you are still taking risks. Sorry if I am pointing out the obvious or something that people have already touched on but this scheme is a scam, EZY and Oxford are screwing over wannabees that are desperate for a way into the industry.When I see conditions like this being imposed on pilots I struggle to see why anyone would lay out 100k.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

WWW, yes you do require an LST to unfreeze/convert from MPL to ATPL, but no-one is there just yet. Thus should the winds change and your services are no longer required pre 1500 hours.......enjoy funding the CPL/IR conversion yourself.

Bealzebub is pretty spot on.

And yes your property is at risk if you do not keep up repayments, regardless of how low the pay and hours as a contractor are. You signed the dotted, it is your party.

Airline crew and aircraft requirments change day by day, trying to guess what the workload will be like on the line in 14 months time is impossible to predict.

I have an incling something 'bigger' may be on the horizon soon. Watch this space.

[Bealzebub]

The method with which the airlines and the pilots accepting these types of scams continue to decry our profession, regardless of how much or little you think I know of the details, is simply ludicrous.

The profession we are discussing here is airline pilot.

Oh and as for your holy grail, I do not work for an airline, never claimed to...i fly where and when my private owner boss tells me to go and love every minute of it. As I have already stated ad nauseum, the airlines are not the pinnacle of the aviation world, they just make you think they are so they can pull **** like this and get a dozen new suckers every day and laugh all the way to the bank. Stick to what you know

I wonder if these quotes of yours made over the last month ring a bell?
With respect, it is not your profession, it is something you have an opinion on.

All you have done to this point is spin the "facts" and argue with pie in the sky numbers and results that the airlines want you to believe because for them its good business and pure profit! But you ignore the "real life" situations that so many others have described. Either you are too far removed from the executives that manage the scams, or you have drank their kool aid, or you have something to gain such as holding shares in the company.

I live in the real life situation, and it is from my actual (rather than perceived) experience of that, that the observations and comment come from. I am not sure what these "pie in the sky numbers" are that you refer to? There again I am not sure you do either? I don't hold shares in any company, but to be honest, arguing with you is becoming demonstrably pointless. Something that I am sure is not lost on the general readership of this thread.

Personally, I continue to believe that you have something personal to gain in this because there is no other way it could be justified or defended (better word) as bitterly as you seem to be doing.

Obviously you can believe what you like, but I cannot see a single example of where I said or defended something "bitterly"? However in this post of yours to somebody else previously...
Go around flapper...I don't live in this world to appease you. Perhaps you are bitter because deep down you know I am right, you are bitter because I make as much money as you to FLY an airplane instead of pushing buttons for a living, or perhaps you are bitter because I paid for a CPL-MIFR without any debt and have never paid a penny towards my post cpl flying life. Either way, I really dont give a damn what YOU think of my credibility!
It would seem that vacuous accusations of supposed "bitterness" are something of a recurring theme with you. On the basis of the written evidence, I think the "bitterness" for whatever reason lies a little closer to home, don't you?

Barely a week goes by where I don't fly with a pilot who has come through similar cadet schemes. Most of them have been with us for many years. Apart from this years new intake, all are on permanent contracts. Of those, all are now on the same seniority salary scales and terms and conditions as everybody else within that rank in the company. We have a significant number of captains (all of whom became captains at the requisite point of subsequent experience and seniority, bar none.) We also have four training captains, and one fleet manager who came from these cadet schemes.

I am more than happy to tell these people, that there is some bad tempered chap in Canada, who isn't an airline pilot, but feels well qualified to decry their background and choices with terms such as "douchebag" etc. However I don't think they will care, and I would completely understand why.

Whatever your paucity of personal airline experience, and granduer of opinion, there is no doubt that these schemes are not any guarantee of success, nor should anybody consider them without the most complete understanding and research. I have certainly made that point time and time again.

You may not like what I say, and you are completely at liberty to challenge it or ignore it, but to mask it with nonsense and suggestions of "personal gain" is on the basis of no evidence, no credibility and no point.

Meanwhile, back at the topic of the easyjet new ab-initio scheme.....

[pug]

Justagigolo77. As an avid watcher of this thread, and others, I have to agree with Bealzebub. Not once have I seen a post where he/she agrees with the situation, more that what he/she writes is of a realistic picture of the industry for 'wannabes' right now.

I do not agree with the situation at all, I get the impression (could be wrong) that Bealzebub doesn't care too much for it either, but that is the way it is at the moment.

Thank you Bealzebub for telling it like it is! Some of us will go all out to get in that position, others will pursue other interests. I think I will just build hours for fun for the time being....

[HundredPercentPlease]

Barely a week goes by where I don't fly with a pilot who has come through similar cadet schemes. Most of them have been with us for many years. Apart from this years new intake, all are on permanent contracts. Of those, all are now on the same seniority salary scales and terms and conditions as everybody else within that rank in the company.

Bealzebub, just for the benefit of the wannabe reader, could you confirm that you are not referring to easyJet here, but instead to a rather well-respected career airline with at least a modicum of moral fibre to be found in the management structure.

At easyJet, we were told that the "flexicrew" contract pilots would be offered a permanent position within 6 months or so or getting on line. This never happened, and so the numbers built up to around the 500 mark now. Some have been on a self-employed contract for 3 years.

BALPA recently negotiated a lower "second officer" permanent payscale to encourage easyJet to offer our contract pilots permanent positions. The company said this was a great idea, but never took it up.

We have offered a small number of permanent positions very recently, but only because we needed more first officers in Paris and Milan, and employment laws in those countries do not permit companies to have self-employed full time workers on reduced rates.

At easyJet we too have a long history of cadet schemes, which have been generally successful. The numbers were small and the pilots carefully selected. But many realised that once they were 6 months in to the job at easyJet they were much better off going to BA, and they did. Even with the burden of paying off the debt to easyJet, it was a good financial move. Some stayed, and some are captains or even hold a senior position in the training department.

More recently, we have had the flexicrew cadet, who is self employed. These have been recruited in the hundreds and it appears that the selection process has been a little more broad. Again, many have already left for proper jobs.

Companies realise that there is a problem with cadets leaving after we spend a lot of time and effort line training. The cadets realise that the final job package is not as good as they anticipated and that there is much better available elsewhere. There is now no financial problem for the company when a cadet leaves, since the cadet carries the entire cost and more (£35k for a TR anyone?) but it is a serious waste of training resources (which are limited).

Cue... the MPL, where your licence won't allow you to leave. Genius really!

What next, the FPL which costs £200,000, and you must remain self employed with the associated airline on an invalid licence until you attain your command?

[R T Jones]

A small number of UK permanent contracts have been given out in the last 6 months. There are 3 guys I know, sure there is more, although not sure how many. It is mainly for European contracts as your right, their employment law does not allow for flexicrew. In France, even for a temporary basing, they have even been on a fixed rosters. It is quite obvious to see this is the next stage in the evolution of flexicrew, first you had to pay if you wanted to leave, now it is physically impossible to leave. It is amazing how much things have changed since I joined CTC in 2007, not sure I could honestly recommend a friend doing the same thing now.

[CharlieFly]

There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the MPL and it's supposed disadvantages compared to the traditional route. This seems to focus on the inability to move company away from you original sponsoring (mentoring) airline, in this case EZY.

From my own research I can only find information stating that the MPL does not restrict you to one airline or type. You are qualified to fly any aircraft, (subject to correct supervising captain) as long as you have to appropriate TR.

I can understand if there is a tie in your contract then moving may be impossible because of the financial implications but has there actually been a mention of this on this course.

As far a I can see there is no mention of a tie to EZY if there is please can someone let me know where this is.

[Bealzebub]

Hundredpercentplease,

Yes, you are are absolutely right regarding the point of clarification. That might raise the question in certain quarters as to why mention another companies terms and conditions when they are not relevant to this subject? The answer would be, in response to the assertion that these schemes (either from the training school perspective or the airlines persepective) are "scams".

It won't have been lost on many people just how bad things have been across a whole range of industries over at least the last two years. As it concerns the subject matter here, these cadet programmes that have been quite successful historically, have had their end user customers shut the door until their own trading situation improves.

In an attempt to keep at the very least a trickle flow going, at least one (and possibly more) of them has sourced placements on far less secure, much more costly, and generally much less desirable terms than might have been the case 3 years ago. They would no doubt argue, that something, indeed anything is better than nothing? That same argument would hold true with many would be unemployed pilots who have taken significant personal compromises in some of their own lives.

Should training schools shut down recruitment as a result? To do so would undoubtably terminate their business. Should airlines shut down as a consequence of the recession? Some have been forced to. The survivors, survive by careful management, upbeat projections, increasing yields as creatively as they can, reducing costs across the board, drawing on reserves and finding customers wherever they can be found. It is not unreasonable to suppose that training schools follow a similar format.

New opportunities may be unpalatable, unaffordable, and a complete non-starter to some, but if there is a market it simply becomes part of the new reality. If there is no market, the idea will either die or evolve into something else.

I have already said, it is for people better informed and more closely involved with this particular company, and this particular scheme, to comment on the specifics. However, the generality is that the training schools in question and the airlines being mentioned are most definetaly not "scam" artists. They are well established players in their respective fields. Whether you love them, loathe them or are indifferent to them. They all have have a history of providing training, placements and jobs in accordance with terms that reflect the realities of the current marketplace at any particular moment in time. They may well be the price setters or market makers for this often bad news, but that doesn't change the reality.

[Denti]

CharlieFly, an MPL has to be done in a flightschool which partners with a sponsoring airline. Part of the MPL is the initial type rating which has to be done within the sponsoring airline training scheme. Until the end of the (longer than normal) supervision the student has to remain within the sponsored airline. However after the pilot is released and has passed its final check he is free to change airlines, however he still has a different license that can be a problem to other airlines which are not used to have MPL pilots within its workforce, in general changing airlines is not done and quite unlikely. An MPL is not a full CPL, the difference is however not all that big. After 1500 hours experience the pilot can transfer his MPL into a normal ATPL given he has the required hours. At least that is how it works for our students, all of which got a full unrestricted job after completion of their training. However, we are not easyjet.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Bealzebub,

I don't think that there is the suggestion that anyone is scamming anyone else. The use of the word is simply an emotive error by certain posters.

However, entry into this profession entails a cost, a risk and a reward. The MPL scheme is the most expensive, has the highest risk and (at easyJet) a poor reward.

If I were to offer you a new iPhone for £2000, sent by uninsured second class post in a clear plastic bag, then I am not a scammer, but you may be a fool if you went for it.

You argue that economics are steering the airline business into a path where MPL is the only option. At some point, the cost will be so high (for the individual), the risk so high and the reward so low, that there will be no takers. Many would argue that we are at that point now, and that the only reason that there are takers is because the FTOs paint a picture that is somewhat different from reality.

Climbing through the cloud at 6 miles per minute and bursting out 'on-top' into brilliant sunshine at 20,000 feet whilst the rest of the world works beneath you is both a privilege and a pleasure that only a pilot can truly enjoy on a regular basis.

Back down again towards the ground, flying a £120 million jet with 150 passengers on board flying accurately on instruments along a precise approach path, breaking through the base of the cloud at 100 feet and landing safely on the runway in a 30-knot gusting crosswind, is also a unique skill set routinely demanded from an airline pilot flying within Europe.

I would suggest that the cost/risk/reward balance - on the easyJet scheme at least - is tipping, or has tipped, the wrong way. Regular captains like me believe that we should have:

easyJet plane - easyJet pilot

and

recruitment from the vast swathes of 1500+ hour turboprop pilots who would love to come and work for us.

[Albanian Seahorse]

However, entry into this profession entails a cost, a risk and a reward. The MPL scheme is the most expensive, has the highest risk and (at easyJet) a poor reward.

Stop lying.

It's not the most expensive, it's the nearly the same as the regular Oxford/CTC course. Plus, you pop out of the other end type rated, saving you ~£30,000.

It's not the highest risk, it's the closest thing to a guaranteed job you'll find today. High risk would be starting any course of training with no job guarantee...

It's not a poor reward (although I agree, it's not a particularly good one either). Of course it won't be that great for your first few years. Who said it would be? But deal with that, and in 2-3 years, you're one of the most employable pilots in the world. Then you can tell easyJet (+ their sh*te T+Cs) where to go.

And no, I'm not applying for the course. But if I could, I would.

[Bealzebub]

HundredPercentPlease

I was trying to be economical in my use of reply space, and only part of the thread was by way of a reply to you. I am sure your comments concerning the specifics of this MPL scheme are very valid. I didn't think I was suggesting that economics were steering the industry into an MPL only path, but given the range of very limited realistic options for the "250 hour airline wannabe" that may have been an unintended interpretation.

If I were to offer you a new iPhone for £2000, sent by uninsured second class post in a clear plastic bag, then I am not a scammer, but you may be a fool if you went for it. Indeed. But that is because there are so many other quicker, cheaper and more secure options. If you were the only realistic game in town, and I were a customer in need of your product, it might be a little less imperative how you packaged and posted the product.


If I truly believed that a CPL/IR and 250 hours was going to find me a job as a first officer on an airbus A320/1, or on a Boeing 737 or 757, I would find very, very few games in town, beyond the cadet schemes that may come packaged as part of an fATPL programme, or indeed as a new MPL programme.

With that clarification, I otherwise agree with what you have said.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Seahorse,

Just for your info, a type rating costs about £14,000 (http://www.intercockpit.com/index.php?id=47&L=1) not £30,000, and certainly not the £35,000 OAA charged the current crop of cadets.

When I refer to high risk, I am talking about what happens if either you or the operator fail to complete the course. With the MPL you are left with nothing, or a bill to convert (ref. Sterling (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/08/08/310559/downturn-throws-mpl-pilots-on-scrapheap.html) pilots).

And by reward, I am referring to the current crop of contract cadets who have had to declare bankruptcy, and the lack of actual employment (unless you call self-employment actual employment).

And I am not lying, I am politely expressing my opinion. If you disagree, then feel free but ideally without hurling abuse. It is my opinion that the MPL is a poor option for pilots, for many reasons.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Bealzebub,

Absolutely. :)

What frustrates me is the secondary effect of the MPL - and the whole circulatory nature of the problem.

1. The A320 is a poor place to learn to fly. The lack of dual controls make the Airbus a nasty trainer. The FO cannot follow through as the Captain does a tricky take off or landing - and likewise the Captain cannot feel and rescue a poor landing. We have already paid the price (in Lisbon) and we are chopping good guys in the base training who "cannot land". I feel sorry for them, because they may have ended up as excellent pilots, if their career path had been slightly different.

With the old route, you would do 1500 hours at one of the UKs numerous TP operators, and learn the basics. You would then have made a good Airbus pilot.

2. The more wannabes are prepared or able to pay for their first job, the more the Operators and FTOs scrabble around to take that money. Traditionally it was the FTO, now it is both. A320 TR for £35,000? Yep, that's the one you have to pay for if you want to be a contractor for eJ.

As the new FO becomes more of a profit centre than an asset, new ways are devised to up the price and reduce the cost. Upping the price is easy - "it's your only way in, son". Reducing the cost includes reducing the amount of time in expensive real aircraft. I would argue that 1500 hours is a good amount to have before you get into an Airbus. Recently we have been inundated with 250 hour pilots, and many have struggled. Safety has, without doubt, been compromised. Now with the MPL, it's 90 hours and many, including me, would say that that is too few.

Which brings us back to 1.

[stuckgear]

HundredPercentPlease

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D


i'll buy you a pint, any time.

Recently we have been inundated with 250 hour pilots, and many have struggled. Safety has, without doubt, been compromised. Now with the MPL, it's 90 hours and many, including me, would say that that is too few.


Another significant point ref your comment on the Airbus being a bad trainer is that in effect this is also placing an addition burden on the Captain. The whole issue of a crew is that they work together and share the workload, working in unison. Flying the line is not a place to learning and places additional workload on the captain. Anyone, who thinks that by 90 or even 200/250 hours is time enough to have generated and honed a skillset, let alone having generated enough experience to perform in such an evironment is foolish.

[stuckgear]

Albanian Seahorse,

With your attitude, perhaps a job at KFC is more your target. In case you hadn't noticed, hundredpercentplease is giving *you* the facts from the inside. These are facts that *you* as a wannabe and others need, should be listening to and heeding. And frankly, you're talking male bovine feces.

As stated, before, there are many on here with years of experience in this industry at all levels and a wannabe making such a statement to someone with the experience putting and effort into providing you with the information *you* need to make effective decisions is highly illustrative.

Your infantile outburst and unwarranted accusation is indicative of your personality type and 'throwing your toys out of the pram' has no place in a professional environment, let alone one with the responsibilities of a professional cockpit crew member. Maybe a trainee manager for a DIY superstore is more your style.

in respect of your comment that you're not applying for the course, but if you could, you would; here's a tip - save your money.

:yuk:

[captainsuperstorm]

is MPL a JAA license or EASA. the only licenses I know are: PP, CP, ATP

I have never seen in my life a pilot with a MPL.How can you trust a guy to fly a 319 when he can not fly a small piper?

woow, when PAX will learn that!!!:}
I think it' s time to boycott EJ.

[HidekiTojo]

^^^ Amen Brother.

[vikdream]

Let's face the problem from the wannabe side, like me. Thesere are mainly the options we have:

MPL: around 50K, no job guarantee at all. No Type Rating. It is almost impossible to get an airline job within the first 2-3 years.

ATPL: around 60-70K. No job guarantee at all, no type rating in most cases. It is difficult to find an airline job within the first 2-3 years.

Cadets: around 80K. Hold pools, but you should get a job within the first 1-2 years. No type rating.

MPL-EZY: around 95-100k. You get a contract, type rating included.

I don't think the financial risk is higher in the sponsorships than MPL-ATPL courses. Why? Simply because you might end up getting a job quite soon. I met a guy (in Spain though) that went through the MPL way and he is still unemployed after 8 years, not even a summer job, not even an unpaid job. It might be hard to pay that loan back, but it is easier to pay 90K back when you have a job, than paying 50K when you don't have any, or even if you have to fly for free.

For those who are insisting on the fact that, even if you go through the EZY sponsorship you have no guaranteed job, I would like to point out that's only if you FAIL. Same for the cadets, I assume same for the ATPL guys. You pay your airline training, if you fail, you lose the money (that's not "no guaranteed job", that's no guaranteed pass".

I would like to highlight indeed that I don't think cadet pilots are worse than those who have 800-1000h. There are other requirements other than time building which can be even more important than that. I have seen many pilots who are absolutely not mature and not responsible enough to take over an airline plane. Furthermore, I work for a Spanish airline and I have been able to talk to the recruitment manager several times. He told me the major requirement was not time building, that they rejected many 4000h pilots simply because they weren't good enough.

Finally let me say something. I understand you airline pilots are absolutely terrified with the new conditions we wannabees are offered. How can we accept that? Well, unfortunetly there's no other option I'm affraid, I would say it is more your fault - the current airline employees - than ours.

This is just my oppinion :ok:

[stuckgear]

vikdream,


MPL-EZY: around 95-100k. You get a contract,


Don't get confused with getting a contract and being a contractor. (see hundredpercentplease's prior posts)

I understand you airline pilots are absolutely terrified with the new conditions we wannabees are offered. How can we accept that? Well, unfortunetly there's no other option I'm affraid, I would say it is more your fault - the current airline employees - than ours.


That's a fair comment.

1. How can you accept that? Don't. Full stop, that's it. The second you commit to an MPL program like this you are placing yourself in the situation that you have very little option to recover from. THAT is fault of those of who accept such terms, no one else's. So don't attempt absolution of responsibility there. By acceptance of these terms from the outset with the understanding of the risks undertaken does nothing but set the standard even lower.

2. To some degree, flight crews in the past have been blind to such schemes. Further to that, the professional associations who are paid to represent their members best interests in terms of T&C's have been ignorant and blind to what is coming down the track.

Pilots have however been taking note in the past, however, there has been limited capability in addressing such situations without the implicit support of their representative bodies.

That of course does not absolve previous crews of allowing such schemes to be implemented, much less there is no absolution for their representative bodies in failing to recognise the situation at any stage.


However, flight crews are challenging such schemes and are lobbying their representation to address such schemes. However, the zombie army throwing themselves forward as cannon fodder is actively undermining any effort to address such issues. So while change is sought, those who accept such terms are now directly responsible.

You break it, you buy it.

[Groundloop]

MPL: around 50K, no job guarantee at all. No Type Rating. It is almost impossible to get an airline job within the first 2-3 years.

There is no such animal. An MPL, by its very nature, will include a type rating and must be taken in co-operation with an airline.

I met a guy (in Spain though) that went through the MPL way and he is still unemployed after 8 years,

MPL's did not exist 8 years ago!

[Superpilot]

Gigolo,

In the UK, we don't have much GA. We are a tiny island where fuel costs over 3 x as much as it costs you over in Canada. GA is therefore not economically viable in the UK and in much of Europe. Also, being a relatively small land mass our cities and towns are much closer together and not massively separated like the municipalities of remote regions in the US and Canada. We have a bigger need for transporting 100-200 people 300-400 miles away then we do for transporting 10-25 people over the same distance or less. Our farm and food stock is transported by road as is all mail. For these reasons and many more, smaller aircraft and turboprops don’t work as well for us as they do in other parts of the world. By my rough guess there are probably less than 50 UK registered turbo-prop or commercial 'light' aircraft flying with UK airlines today. Compare that to the number of jet aircraft of which there are over 400!

Therefore it is quite normal for a 250 hour pilot to come out of flight school and straight onto flying a large commercial aircraft because realistically that is the only place he will find a job. There are far more jet jobs available than turboprop, instructing, banner towing, agriculture, parachute dropping jobs put together. We just don’t have the aircraft diversity to support the kind of “career progression” you guys look forward to and are so used to. It’s a different ball game over here. Also, the JAA fATPL course is a much tougher and more regimented pilot training course compared to the US FAA or ICAO/Canada one. We have the concept of 'Integrated' schools which indoctrinate pilots (or like to think they do) from day one getting them thinking like and acting like airline pilots (and occasionally boastful toffs!)

Regarding EasyJet and this scheme. It's a sad state of affairs that the biggest recruiter of pilots in the UK cannot offer pilots a proper career anymore. In any case, for new pilots they can only offer a position if one has spent £100k + (including interest) on something that’s worth only £60k (including a TR) at a flight school owned by their buddies. It's also a sad state of affairs that this position is of a "temporary" nature with the airline not interested in helping pilots by basing them where they want to be based (at least 75% of the time). This is the nature of low cost aviation and it is spreading like wildfire. What can we do? Airlines are businesses and serve one purpose. That is to reward investors and shareholders. If that means screwing around with the lives of young pilots abusing them in the process then so be it. They capitalise on the desperation of loads of young, keen aviators who have not experienced life enough to say no! It’s capitalism gone mad, I agree.

[Bealzebub]

Why do you think a 250hr pilot DESERVES to fly an airliner?
That is simple. It is because the 250 hour pilots in question are from cadet schemes, that from selection, through training, to eventual placement, are completely structured towards that individuals apprenticeship into an airline pilots job.

Those that are successful throughout the programme will have been deemed deserving of a place on to the next stage of that appenticeship. That isn't to say it will necessarily follow, but that would be the intention.

These courses usually involve a full time, eighteen month course of study and training. The course is normally recognised, monitored, mentored, and assessed by the partner or customer airlines. Selection (if and when) is made from the graduates such that those who make the requisite grade, move on to the next stage of airline pilot training. There is no automatic right of progression, and the airline can and will reject anybody who doesn't prove to be very competent at the required level.

You make the mistake of confusing "250 hour cadet pilot" with simply any "250 hour CPL/IR pilot" in the general populace. You also make the mistake of assuming that the noun "pilot" is in itself a profession. There are many professions encompassing pilots in different disciplines, employments and genres, but in the context of this thread and this discussion, that profession is "airline pilot" and it is a distinction you need to understand.

Whatever anybodies viewpoint on the fairness, cost, risk or benefit of these cadet programmes, the simple truth is that the concept didn't start last year. They have been around for decades. I have flown with a lot of graduates from cadet programmes and have generally found them to be very self aware, highly motivated, well trained, emotionally stable, quick and eager learners. They bring with them a discipline and set of of CRM skills that in many respects compensates (at this level) for the lack of numerical flying hours they posess.

Where there has been change, it has been in the rate of growth of these programmes. This has happened at a point in time where there has also been a growth in the "lo-cost" sector of the airline industry. Terms and conditions for employment have been squeezed and degraded by the combination of: aggressive new operating philosophies, supply and demand, and global macro economics. These programmes, or certainly the growth in them, has been a small part of those changes, but it is certainly not the cause of them. Times are tough for professional pilots generally. They are certainly tough for airline pilots. They are tough at the top, in the middle, and certainly at the bottom.

Anybody considering a career as an airline pilot in 2011 and into the forseeable future, needs to make sensible, careful, well researched, risk analysis. It won't be for everyone. It won't be for the majority. People will continue (as they always have) to make emotional decisions. Some will make bad choices, good choices, difficult choices or no choice at all. No matter the cost, there will continue to be a supply (at whatever level) of people who are able to meet that cost.

So back to these cadet programmes. Would I as a long term senior captain concern myself with getting on an airline that employs 250 hour cadet pilots from these programmes? From years of direct experience and involvement, no not at all. In fact many major airlines around the planet have cadet programmes of these types. Graduates of these programmes are by and large now flying with airlines all over the world. They are managers, trainers, captains, first and second officers.

For anybody who wants to pick and choose who they fly with on that basis. Good luck!

[FANS]

Does this represent the best bet to end up as an A320 pilot within 2 years for a well known airline? Yes.

Do you still want a 30+ year career as an airline pilot given the continuous slide in T&Cs? Probably not, if you've got a brain that will allow you to do other careers.


People need to realise that the job is fundamentally different to even ten years ago. The number of wannabes that I've met, who say that their neighbour/parent's friend etc. is a BA LH Captain and has a great lifestyle, should be no basis for today's entrants, when they'll be struggling to rent a studio in a sink estate.

[captainsuperstorm]

-We will all have a good laugh when these kidos freshly trained with their shiny MPL will be asked to leave to let the place to new dreamers joining this "wonderful orange" scheme.
The long line of unemployed pilots will be even longer.
-Let them dream for now, parents are already excited to announce to neighbors that their son will be soon an airline pilot.

do the contractor has obligation to send them to fly. minimum hours guaranteed?

[vikdream]

MPL's did not exist 8 years ago!

Sorry mate, I was referring to ATPL going modular. My mistake... ;)

[stuckgear]

Some people are born to be abused.

and those considering this scheme are self abusers

[captainsuperstorm]

not only self abuser, very dumb at least.

what scheme we have?:

1-ryanair
2-easyjet
3-eagle jet

pick the lucky one, for the one which will make you less miserable.
I would still go for easyjet before I shoot myself!:ouch:

[clanger32]

I have no skin in the game in any instance, but some thoughts, from someone who took the gamble to self sponsor and has subsequently all but given up on the dream (due to a new family and lack of willingness to work for what is now on offer following the recession)

- Is the easyJet MPL scheme a scam? Errrm. No I'd have to say. IF you can afford it without taking undue risk then it represents probably the best [for "best" read "quickest"] way to an airline seat available right now

- If you DO go for it, you should read - and REALLY try and understand - what I think both hundredpercentplease and Beazelbub are trying to tell you. You will be tied to easy, with no easy(sic) escape route for AT LEAST two years. Should you be aware of the fact that easy have you by the short and curlies and will use that to THEIR advantage? Absolutely. For example, in this thread we've been told to translate an MPL licence to an ATPL, you need 1500 min AND a successful LST. Would it be beyond easy to reduce your hours running up to 1500 so that you only went past that AFTER your next LST? absolutely not - it would tie you to them for another year.

- You should be VERY aware and cognitive of the possibility of the example mentioned earlier - you won't get to take holiday - if at all - when YOU want to. You WILL be used to do the ****ty 0500 shuttle to Glasgow in the middle of winter, that no-one else wants to do.

- Is the existence of this scheme the fault of those that take it? That's a VERY tricky one. It's analgous to the chicken and egg scenario. The "yes it's the muppets who take these schemes fault" group will always say that if no-one did it, then they woulnd't - COULDN'T - exist. This is of course true. However, if those who have already made it to the promised land of the flight deck had some balls and said no, would these schemes ever have existed? also no. PERSONALLY, as near as I can get to the blame game is that both have some burden of responsibility. But in the same way that those who take terms such as these to get on the flightdeck are responsible for lowering the terms for those who seek to follow, those who are already there must surely carry the can to some degree (collectively, not individually) for the fact this scheme runs.

- Is spending £70k to get an fATPL and then enter the hell of trying to find ANY job a better option than spending £100k to have the opportunity to work for a major player - albeit one that's doing it's best to ruin it's long term appeal? You pays yer money you takes yer choice.

Gigolo = Not for me to judge you or anyone else - but if you are an intelligent being you should be able to read that Beazelbubs posts are not biased and are intelligent, educated and I would suggest very good guidance for those that seek to follow him/her and hundredpercentplease onto the flightdeck. You may have a differing opinion (which I have to say, I personally, disagree with) but you should at least be able to look at the content of the post and respect the person.

For me? I always knew that given my circumstance when I started training it was a long shot. I started when the market had never been better for low houred pilots - and unfortunately I finished just as the whole economy crashed. I have regrettfully walked away, but with no debt and no regret. I would have considered it an honour to fly with the likes of 100% and Beazlebub....unfortunately these forums show far too many other people I would have loathed flying with - self obsessed, self important and perhaps most importantly holding far too high an opinion of their own intelligence. I'm at ease with my decision, even though I know for the rest of my life I'll always look at the planes overhead or when I go to an airport and think "what if".

[Adios]

Clanger,

LST = Licence Skills Test and this occurs at the end of the Type Rating for an MPL cadet, not a year or two into the flying. You probably meant LPC, a Licence Proficiency Check. Read on for a bit more ambiguity though.

What is interesting to me about this thread is that only one or two have expressed concerns about the MPL itself (there are other threads that do this of course). The entire thread is about the T&Cs and risk/reward factors. Yet the first batch isn't six months on the line. How quickly we seem to accept evolution.

Now if I could only find my bookmark to LASORS online, I'd like to post here the entire chapter from it governing UK MPL. It's only four pages long. It is slightly ambiguous on one point and this regards when the company restriction is removed from the licence. It does not state this occurs at 1500 hours like everyone here writes, nor is there any mention of an LPC. It seems to state that the head of training sends a letter to the CAA once the cadet completes line training and the CAA removes the company restriction. The problem with LASORS is that in one place it refers to the company conversion course and another it specifically states line training. Are we to take the different terms to mean the same thing? There is further ambiguity of course in that LASORS offers no guidance at all as to whether an MPL holder who's had the company restriction removed from the licence can then switch airlines before reaching 1500 hours. It is worth noting that we need not say "an MPL holder with less than 1500 hours", since any of them with a stamp and an envelope will send off their light blue book for a green one as soon as they reach 1500 hours, thence no longer are they MPL holders.

Since LASORS mostly parrots JAR-FCL, it might be worth digging into the latter to see if it sheds any light on this very critical issue of how and when these cadet FOs will be legally eligible to move to a different company. If it is earlier than 1500 hours, this will of course open a new stream in the thread as to whether another airline would take them sub-ATPL if it is legal to do so.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

My understanding* is that you have an MPL instead of a CPL. It is at the point where you ditch your MPL to obtain an ATPL that you become a Free Man.

You cannot have an ATPL until you have the relevant hours, 1500 of them and an LPC in the simulator. Under present CPL FrznATPL arrangements the LPC in the sim only counted as long as you had 1,500hrs in the logbook when you went in the sim. What is unclear is whether this condition applies in the case of MPL. Nobody has got there yet. Nobody seems to know. Not even the CAA.


WWW



* given conflicting info from a variety of sources.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Meanwhile....

Oxford have produced a shortlist of young hopefuls from all the applications. How many young 'uns willing to bet Dad's house on this scheme?

350!

:ugh:

[Callum Riseley]

Where is that statistic from? There were around 450-500 applications I believe, a few of which weren't invited to stage 2 as they either didn't meet the requirements or didn't really impress on the written application. On the first day of stage 2 I'd say at least half of the people in the groups I was there with were told they'd failed the computer aptitude tests and then on the 2nd day some people failed to meet the required standard on the teamwork exercise and interviews and only the people that had passed all of these to the normal OAA integrated standard would be shortlisted to be selected by easyJet for the next stage. 350 seems far too many?

[HundredPercentPlease]

This was from one of our ex-Oxford cadets who was recruited by Oxford to attend an open day to talk to the hopefuls. 350 was the figure given by Oxford.

My point was that so many are prepared to consider such a one-sided, high risk and low reward "deal" in the first place. The fact that 450 to 500 applied makes it even worse!

I do hope that everyone realises how poor the best outcome really is.

[Callum Riseley]

Ahhh yes, this is the number of people that were taken through to the 2nd stage, which is where the ex-Oxford EZY pilots were answering questions. Many of these were deemed unsuitable or, like you state, were willing to risk daddy's house for a course they know very little about so were dropped along the way and the ones that passed everything to the normal OAA standard have been ranked by scores and sent off to easyJet for them to decide who they want to take through to the final interviews. OAA don't really want people (I won't say kids as I'm only 17!) that know very little of the course and aren't aware of the risks and know nothing about the way easyJet operate and the contract and salary. It's as much of a waste of money for them as it will be for the person on the course so they're not really just taking on any kid who's parent's have a nice, big house.

And in terms of the risks, every route into flying has it's risks. I seem to be one of the only people on this forum that is for this MPL course and that isn't because I'm an uneducated 17 year old that is impatient and wants to rush into flying. I've done lots of research and I'm not just going off what OAA have told me, just as I'm not just going off what the extreme pessimists here at PPRUNE have been saying. I may well come out of this course and have to live in a studio flat or a shared flat for a few years with an old heap of metal dragging me to work every morning but I didn't apply and attend the assessment because I want to be a millionaire or because I wanted to walk through the terminal building with all the girls staring at me with their jaws to the ground. I am well aware that flying isn't what it used to be but to me this course offers somebody like me the insurance that they won't be stacking shelves for 3 years after completing the course while saving up for a type rating/paying off the loan/trying to live.

This is a course that puts somebody into the right hand seat of an easyJet A320 and is about £20k cheaper than the normal cadet route with everything taken into consideration. People that ask how long it will be until they can leave easyJet and if they'll have any problem moving away after the 1500 hours need to consider what they are doing. If you have no interest in flying for easyJet or just see it as a "stepping stone" then you shouldn't be throwing £100k into an EASYJET MENTORED scheme.

[Globally Challenged]

This is a course that puts somebody into the right hand seat of an easyJet A320 and is about £20k cheaper than the normal cadet route with everything taken into consideration.

At slightly over £100k, I fail to see what else can be taken into consideration from the 'normal' route to add yet another 20k :sad:. That must be a hell of a lot of raybans to wear while swanning around the local Sainsburys in your baby-pilot outfits.

Also Airtours / MyTravel have already demonstrated the lack of suitability of the Airbus as a cadet trainer http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/Airbus%20A320,%20G-DHJZ%2012-08.pdf

[captainsuperstorm]

This is a course that puts somebody into the right hand seat of an easyJet A320 and is about £20k cheaper than the normal cadet route



the price they give is an estimated price. I would say it would cost you 30% more.

[assymetricdrift]

What amazes me...

In spite of this recession, the recruitment freezes, the blocks, the airlines going bust, the thousands of experienced pilots out there without work, the lack of job stability at the moment and the overall total malaise in this industry...

There are still kids out there who want to put down £120k and buy themselves into a job.

Everybody considering this course should definately go to University, get some life experience, get a job working somewhere for a while and then see how they feel about flying. Flying isn't going anywhere at all, and just because you're in a rush to get into the Right Hand Seat of a shiny jet, you're willing to sell your soul to the devil.

I think anyone who considers this course equally needs to consider the implications of the loan too - it will cripple you. You won't be living in a shared flat, you won't even be able to drive a banger to work, because you won't be able to afford that much! For the first 2 years of my career, I ended up in a Student house, living off beans on toast, and if I wanted to put petrol into my car, I had to sacrifice it by not going on any social events. And I'm not even on this scheme... but the loan repayments will cripple you.

Go to Uni, get life experience, join the UAS, see if they'll accept you. You get your training paid for afterall!

This entire thing stinks of the British mentality at the moment "We want it, and we want it now!". Whatever happened to the goold old thought of "If we want something, we'll have to work towards it". We're just a greedy bunch of gits who believe it's our god given right to get what we want, now!

Bring back sponsored schemes.

A frustrated pilot, fed up with this industry and the way it is.

[Callum Riseley]

I fail to see how a salary of around £40,000 a year (minus the £10,000 a year if you take out the loan) would force somebody into student accommodation with no petrol and no dispensable income to attend social events? This option works out £20k cheaper than the usual integrated cadet way into easyJet as the type rating is included in the £85k costs and the pilot is on the full salary immediately after line training whereas I believe CTC pay the cadets about £1,200 a month for a year or something to regain the costs of the type rating. Like I said, I'm not applying to become a millionaire but I refuse to pay £9k a year tuition fees just so I can "build some life experience" and then get a job for a few years getting some more "life experience" while the whole time I've just got my head in the clouds. I could sit around for years wasting my time waiting for airlines to begin sponsoring again or I could move with the times and understand that to live the dream you have to make a few sacrifices.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Salary?

Are eJ offering jobs on this course?

[BitMoreRightRudder]

I may well come out of this course and have to live in a studio flat or a shared flat for a few years with an old heap of metal dragging me to work every morning

A few years? This is a decade of debt you are talking about taking on. I borrowed 60K to join the "old cadet" scheme in 2004 and I'm about 18 months away from paying it off, after 5 years of £1200 a month repayments, and I have got lucky with the interest rates. You are borrowing substantially more (I assume you are borrowing from a bank) and interest rates are almost certainly going to be on the rise during your repayment term. Just be mindful of the fact you are not joining on a salary, but an hourly rate as HundredPercentPlease has alluded to. You will not be an employee of easyjet, you will be a contract F/O. Also be aware that many ezy pilots see this deal as the worst on offer in easyjet's history. At the very least it is ridiculously overpriced.

You seem to be generally well informed (I agree with your assessment of the cost of uni, sadly) and aware of what you are looking at getting into, if you have considered all this and decide to press ahead then good luck to you, I hope you get a place on the course.

Just make sure you are prepared to take on a huge debt that will take many years of hard work and your hard earned cash to settle. It will have a big impact on the next decade of your life.

[Callum Riseley]

I am aware that this isn't a "salary" but instead a Parc Aviation hourly payed contract. Let's say for arguments sake that I decided (if I'd been offered a place) to turn this course down, go to university, work a bit and get some life experience and then come back in a few years.

I've been offered a place at 5 universities to study German and Spanish, so if I was to accept one of these places I'd be putting myself into about £60k worth of debt with the new tuition fees. I'd then leave college with no concrete career to go into as languages are just a general subject. Graduate unemployment figures in the UK are currently about 20% and with no concrete career path on such a general course finding a decent payed graduate job would be hard. I'd then probably end up as a freelance translator or something along those lines with no guaranteed work in a job that I'd absolutely loathe. I'd still be in £60k worth of debt with no secure income, all the while dreaming of flying an airliner. I'd THEN try and get into aviation having to take out an additional loan of about £90k (then an additional £30k for a type rating) which means I'm now in about £180k worth of debt and a lot older. If the aviation cycles are also true, the industry would also be on it's way down again and I'd generally be in no position to get into a flying job.

Or, I could start now. I've been working for 2 years now, admittedly just part time during my studies, however in addition to all of the money I've been given over the past 10 years since I first realised I wanted a flying career it's quite a bit. Then add that to the fact that I'm in a pretty well payed job at Stansted Airport at the moment and could potentially be working there for another year if I was offered a place on the last course date (July 2012) and having to pay nada in terms of housekeeping as I'm living with my parents. I'll then only have to take out a loan for less than half of the course price and living fees and so I can delay by quite a few months the repayments of the loan from the end of the course.

I may well be hourly payed, I may well not have guaranteed hours (except from the winter months) and it may well be the "worst deal in the history of easyJet" but who can really say that a useless degree, triple the debt and about 10 years of boredom and dreaming of flying is better than flying with about £500 a month worth of debt for 8-10 years?

[Smell the Coffee]

I've been offered a place at 5 universities to study German and Spanish, so if I was to accept one of these places I'd be putting myself into about £60k worth of debt with the new tuition fees. I'd then leave college with no concrete career to go into as languages are just a general subject. Graduate unemployment figures in the UK are currently about 20% and with no concrete career path on such a general course finding a decent payed graduate job would be hard.

I do agree with some of what you say, but in my humble opinion and based on personal experience of having graduated with a degree, I think you may be underestimating the value of having a degree.

You're assuming that a languages degree won't help you find a "concrete" career.

It depends on what you're interested in, and where your skills lie, but many respectable companies from banks to a multitude of large multinationals would be quite happy to give you an interview based on a) your degree and b) the degree subject itself.

You could apply to HSBC, Unilever, British Airways (Graduate Programme)....etc. etc. The degree in languages will not hamper you (it may actually make you very attractive to companies with operations overseas.)

Relatively few companies specify specific subjects for their general graduate programmes - I know because I have applied to a few, including HSBC.

I take your point about the employment figures for graduates, but most degrees take 3 years to complete...I also take your point regarding student debt, but statistical evidence has shown that graduates have in many cases commanded higher salaries and faster promotion.

We're drifting off-topic here but my point was to poke some holes in your assumptions regarding the value of a good degree from a good Uni. :}

If in future you do apply to any other schemes, be sure you have seen the actual employment contract before signing any money away.

[maxed-out]

Hi there

Please dont shoot me down for this line of questioning.

However, OneHundredpercentPlease posted a few posts back that it was unfortunate that good guys were cut from the A320 course at the base training phase and that they would have otherwise made good pilots. Shouldn't that tell us that those cadets who have cut the mustard and passed the whole course are good enough. It seems from previous posts that the a/c is indeed a handful to fly/land and I feel that some sort of credit should be given to those who have passed the course without further remedial training.

So as a little thread drift I do therefore feel that those of us ex-modular students that are considering SSTR on an Airbus should not be criticised too much for "self selection" as some people blatantly accuse us of. The reality is that if I or anyone else (ex-CTC, ex-Oxford cadet or ex-modular) does an A320 rating at one of the big trto's and pass it well does it not mean that we too cut the mustard for passing such a tough course?

[rogerg]

ATTENTION. This is the spelling police.

Paid not payed.

All you educated guys should know this.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

What is the start date at OAA? I'd be interested to see how many pull out when BA open their scheme in the near future. Perhaps this would indicate how many are seeing this EZY scheme as 'the only way' into the right hand seat at the moment. ANy indiccation as to how many RAF "de-selectees" applied?

[HundredPercentPlease]

maxed-out,

The Airbus is a very straight forward aircraft to land. An experienced pilot has no problem at all, so long as they use the correct technique.

The issue is with learner pilots (generally considered as those with less than 1500 hours). When learning, it is good to have dual controls - so the FO can be safely corrected and so he can feel how it is done.

My point was that due to the incidents we have had, we are now nervous and somewhat trigger happy in the training. So what will become a good pilot at 1500 hours has his career ruined due to a mild mishap in the sim at 150 hours. Nothing to do with raw ability, just a combination of no experience and a moment of bad luck.

Do not believe that you can even approach the mustard with anything remotely sharp until you have a couple of years under your belt. And I can assure you that just because you can get through all the hoops at the beginning, you are not "there" yet. In fact, a healthy belief that you are no where near "there" is good for your entire career.

Callum,

As a pilot, you will always have a good Plan B (and most of the time a pretty broad outline on Plan C). Most pilots come from some kind of other background, and most have a degree. So if you lose your medical, get made redundant, get bored or get fired - you have another skill you can fall back on. You have to consider what position you will be in if the tender chain breaks at any point.

You also mention that you want to "live the dream". So many of us have chased that same dream too - only to discover that dreams are totally different to reality. I read a post on here once about waking yourself up at 3am and going for a one hour circular drive until you got back home. Then get into the cupboard under the stairs, close the door, and do simple sudokus for 10 hours (leave a Hoover on outside the cupboard for realistic noise). When done, do the same one hour circular drive. And repeat for 5 days in a row....

[Callum Riseley]

I did see a few military pilots at the easyJet selection.

HundredPercentPlease, I can completely understand where you are coming from but I have to assess the benefits vs the costs of delaying flying by 5-10 years to build up a plan B, and believe me I have! I applied to universities, got offers back and even sorted out accommodation so I could bide my time but I am not interested in going to university. It's not a decision I made without thought, but I could just imagine myself dropping out of the course after the first year. I'll be broke for 4 years, I'll be in triple the debt all current graduates are in and (this part is my own fault) I am not actually interested in literature and a massive part of a language degree is literature. I picked languages because I enjoy speaking them (and because I hate all the other courses I do at A Level) but you don't really need a degree to be able to speak a language!

I worked at McDonalds at the age of 15 and one of my managers who was on around £6 an hour had a degree from the university that I'd chosen and had been at McDonalds for years after his degree. I'm not saying degrees are worthless but unless you actually know what you want to do with it afterwards you can't really justify spending £60k on it. I have thought long and hard about what I'd do if I was made redundant or lost my medical and I wouldn't exactly be in a position to enter a well paid career but I'd certainly have lots of options available to me, many opened up by the languages, and could enter university or get other qualifications as a mature student.

In terms of the dream not being quite as dreamy as it sounds, I can assure you that the only job that I've actually ever dreamt of or considered doing is flying. So if after a few years I get bored of flying, then I'm sure you can imagine how bored I'd be doing office work/translating books etc.

I do hope that I've managed to counteract the stereotype somewhat. Not all of us 17 year old wannabes have no idea what we want and have been lured into the FTO's and are throwing daddy's house on the line without any consideration and risk/cost analysis. I've been saving birthday money since the age of about 7 for this.

[maxed-out]

HundredPercentPlease

Please forgive me for the shoddy nature of my post as it seems you've misunderstood me and the point I was trying to make. Allow me to put you in the picture.

I have been practicing in the UK for the past 12 years in a medical related field. As the regulatory body which governs my profession looks down on career changing hopefuls for fear of supervised neglect I cannot be more specific if its medical, dental or physiotherapy etc. All I can say is that it takes 6 years to become one. Everyday I go to work and treat people in need of my services. Today I learnt something new as I did yesterday and the day before. Whether its about how to address more sensitive issues w.r.t treatment or simply a regulatory issue of this bloody NHS, I am learning every day. Point is if anyone on this thread knows anything about continuing professional development, I'm certainly one of them. (along with oher professionals on this form)

All I meant by my post was that (and I possibly posted this on the wrong thread and should have started my own) even people selected on Airline Sponsored Training in the past have failed at the base training phase. So despite the fact that the airline had funded some/all of the flying training from the outset, they (the airline) didn't want to subsidise further remedial sessions to make sure that only the best get through and not people who need re-training. Airforce a prime example of this.

So a "self selected modular student" like myself doing an SSTR would not have the luxury of the thought that the airline is picking up the tab and that any remedial training would probably end up costing loads more or being swiftly axed from the course and losing my hard earned money. If I did fund my own A320 TR and I did pass it well, why should I be frowned upon when others who were pre-selected pre-Atpl (i.e integrated) have failed at that crucial hurdel of TR.

Sure I may have cut the mustard to pass the TR but by no means am I Top Gun and by no means did I imply this as you so eloquently implied in the last line of your post addressed to me.

[HundredPercentPlease]

maxed-out,

I see. :)

There are plenty of issues arising from this thread. The trainee is paying too much money for not enough licence, is bearing too much risk and is restricted to one operator when released onto the line.

The operator is exposed to higher risk, having a wide range of very low hour pilots flying an aircraft without dual controls. The operator mitigates that risk by being more inclined to chop than to re-train (this is in response to incidents, not trying to save money).

It's a bad place for everyone, except for the fact that the TRTOs are raking it in, and the operators get very cheap, disposable and "flexible" workers. As usual, it's all about the money.

Of course it's not right, and it's not fair. And less safe.

We need to go back to employing 1500+ hour ex TP/mil pilots. The risk is lower for us and for the pilot. Newbies need to do a standard course, which is lower risk for them (full licence and no employer restriction) with a correctly priced (or free/bonded) TR. They need to go to TP operators, to learn the basics on a dual control lighter and simpler aircraft, where the risk (of being chopped) is lower and the reward is a better foundation of skill. Someone who spent their first 2 years driving in a 1960 LandRover with half a turn of play in the steering will be better prepared for the S Class Merc when it comes.

I didn't mean to take the operator perspective. Most of us on the line believe that a stepped path into an Airbus is better than "direct entry". For everyone. I have a sneaky suspicion that in two years time we may well be back to that system.

You shouldn't be frowned on, and I don't think you are. But you present less of an opportunity for at least two other organisations to make a lot of money out of you, so at present you may well be neglected. Target TP operators and get stuck in there. By the time you have 1500 hours, you may well be in a perfect position, and when the times comes you may find it a lot easier to pass the command assessments. ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

A lot of good points being made here.


WWW

[maxed-out]

HundredPercentPlease

Thank you very much for your response and I think what you say about this lousy MPL scheme is very true. Any person undertaking this route is foolish and may find themselves between an "operator-specific-A320-rating" and a hard place when the mango hits the fan!

As for me I'm in my second season of part-time GA flying since qualifying and been fortunate enough to have a gig flying single engine turbine as P1.:)

I agree with your comments about the traditional route and have appoached TP operators; alas without success. My only concern is my age and that without SSTR (TP or JET) I might never get there. If you know a bit more about TP operators and I have possibly overlooked a route into one of these operators I will gladly accept a PM from you. You're obviously an experienced pilot that knows the industry well and might be able to help.

Thanx again HPP for your valuable comments.:ok:

[Drakestream]

Callum, your posts remind me so much of me eight years ago. I was in a very similar position and initially I chose the integrated route at one of the big FTOs. Admittedly I wasn't on a course that was attached to any individual airline, but about three months in I switched to modular and I never looked back.

You seem to be a very switched on young man, you know what you want and I applaud you for that. I was the same as you, I decided that university wasn't for me, and I still stand by that decision. Only you can make that choice, and it sounds as though flying has been your ambition since you were very young and it's all you want to do. If that is the case, then I would say go for it. Don't do the uni thing. However, I would very seriously look at going down the modular route. So much can change in the 18 months while you're on the course. In your case you are looking at the possibility of not finishing training until 2014 if you start in July next year. I promise you that so much will change in this industry in the three years until you finish. I'm sure the training contract will be written in such as way that it is heavily weighed in easyJets favour. Growth is slowing dramatically at easyJet now, and their crewing needs will change dramatically in the next three years. That's not to say that they won't make good on their promise of a job, but what if they don't? You'll be stuck with a disproportionate amount of debt and no job.

Let me put another option to you. From what you have stated on here, you have saved around £40,000 for your training? That is excellent! You are already in a brilliant position, much more advantageous than most others who are thinking of training. Kudos to you for having the commitment and foresight to save so diligently. It shows a great deal of integrity that backs your stated desire to be a pilot above anything else. That £40,000 could get you the same little blue book that many guys pay well over £100,000 for. It might not cover the whole thing, but even to go to the very best schools you'd probably only be looking at paying an extra £10,000. You could even still study with OAA.

Let me break it down for you.
PPL - £6,000
ATPL Written Exams - £3,000
Hours building - £8,000 (either in the USA or there are many very affordable options now available in the UK)
Commercial - £5,000
Multi engine rating - £3,000
Instrument rating - £14,000
MCC - £3,000
Fees, exam payments etc - £3,000

Total cost - £45,000

I've been very generous with the costs above, you could in fact do it all for quite a bit less. When I trained I spent about £38,000 in total.

Now, I know the biggest factor in all of this is the job at the end. But having spent £45,000, you will have little to no debt. With the level of maturity and intelligence you are displaying on here, I don't think you'd have a big problem getting a job flying something, somewhere. It might not be a shiny jet straight away, but what so many people miss out on is the real fun of the journey getting to that jet. Even if a big jet is all you really want, then there is still Ryanair, which, while there being no guarantee you will get an interview, is a very real option. If you end up having to self fund a type rating somewhere you will probably be looking at an other £30,000 in addition to the £45,000 you've already spent, giving you a total of £75,000 for the whole thing.

I have never regretted my decision to quit integrated and go modular. I networked a hell of a lot and 2 days after finishing my MCC, I started with a turboprop operator in the right hand seat. The market changed, I got made redundant six months later and ended up moving overseas and flying the same aircraft type for another airline. Just yesterday I got the phone call from one of the world's major airlines offering me a job in the right hand seat of a jet starting on June 6th. It's been on hell of a journey so far, it really has had a lot of ups and downs, sometimes it's been hell, but I would do it all again.

I hope you'll give what I've said some thought. You really do remind me a lot of myself when I was 17. I still love what I'm doing because I've still got that passion to fly. Don't let people get you down, but do make the right choices. They may not always be the most straight forward or easiest routes to choose, but good decisions always end up paying off.

Good luck and if you need any more help or advice, please feel free to drop me a PM. I owe this industry a lot, and I'd like to give something back.

[captainsuperstorm]

drakestream,

save your saliva, wanabes will catch the bait whatever we say here on this forum!:ugh:

[rssfed23]

"I think I can say pretty firmly that no RAF de-selectees have snapped up this 'offer'"

Doesn't explain why there were some at the skills assessments

[CharlieFly]

Anyone heard if they have been invited to interview yet?

[Callum Riseley]

@Bangout your post says "I think I can say pretty firmly that no RAF de-selectees have snapped up this 'offer'. Cathay is the best deal on the table for us right now" and in my assessment phase there were at least 5, that's just in one day out of 10. Regardless of how many went to the normal assessment, you can't "pretty firmly" say that "no RAF de-selectees" attended because some did.

@Charliefly, nothing yet.

[Callum Riseley]

E-mails have been sent out with decisions.

[Bn02fly]

Ok so here are my main issues with the scheme :
1. At no point is there any mention of a guaranteed job
2. It's £85,000 + Oaa accomodation at around £20,000
3. It's not an atpl until you get your command
4. It's a secured loan on a property unless you have £105k lying around
5. The whole training is based on Easyjet sops which makes it invalid elsewhere.
6. Easyjet has just reported first quarter losses of over £100m
7. Easyjets up to now massive growth rate is slowing
8. Because you can only go to Easyjet they can choose to pay you next to nothing like ctc, and let's face it why wouldn't they!
9. With no guarantee of a job you could essentially end up with no valid license. Not even a ppl!
10. You will have zero choice on where you will work, say good bye to your family's because Madrid and Paris are always short on crew.
11. Your receive an Easyjet a320 type rating again based on their seps so is it really going to be valid? Even if your license is?
12. It isn't yet Caa approved, although they guarantee to put you through an atpl if they don't accredit it that means how many more years until your online??
13. If Easyjet really wanted the best quality guys and had guaranteed jobs they would offer full sponsorship with repayments out of salary and a legally binding agreement for 10 years employment, it feels to me like they are worried that there may not be jobs so are making it risk free for themselves, and very high risk for potential candidates
14. Who's to say that when you complete that they won't choose a ctc guy over you, after-all they have a full atpl and type rating too, so essentially better qualified and are probably going to be accepting a lower pay to get the job.

People need to remember that this is a highly successful business, and they know that any press is good press, so even if this thing fails there getting publicity out of it, and the cadets are the ones taking the financial fall with potentially devastating effects.

This might be the right course for 17 year old guy or girl, who has no ties like a spouse or children, who's parents don't need to secure a loan and can give them 100k freely with no worries.

But to me that's the way the industry used to be people with money over ability. I'm not that person, I'm 21 I have a partner that I live with and the money would have to be secured on mum and dads house... But to be honest it's more than unfair for me to ask them to put their life's work on the line for a license that may not even get me a job.

[captainsuperstorm]

look, if easyjet were looking for pilots, they would hire the thousand of pilots who have no job since the last 1-2 years and who are fully qualified with XXXX hours on the 320-319.

why do you think they want guys with 0 experience and bother with this MPL ? answer: they want your MONEY!

They know it' s going to be complicated, but they want the money that Oxford is giving to them.

I call this corruption!

in 1-2 years you will understand:}and we will have a big laugh when you will be in the street with no license, no house, no money,...and no job!

why guys want absolutely get a job in a jet at 20yo. go see the world, go learn to fly real planes with standard controll/rudder. go get a feeling of grass runways, mountains vortex, and adventure. Bush, seaplane,...

forget about these easyjet schemes, it s not working and it will make you miserable in the long term.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Its a gamble, but the odds are better elsewhere. and besides, you don't really fly an A320 now do you? :}

Easyjet believe that everything should come to them risk and cost neutral. Lets face it, they may as well be Ryanair Uk ltd. 5 contractual earlies in a row?? Its a good thing the Airbus does a lot of the work for you. I'm shattered after 3, and thats before going onto lates!

The MPL IS a good start for an ab-initio looking for a right hand seat in minimum time, but this set up is only going to tarnish its reputation. OAA and EASY are simply looking to cash in. If there was a firm job in terms of being full-time, not a contractor(!!), then I would look closly at the finance side. There would also have to be a commitment from EASY to convert you back to a CPL/IR MCC (fATPL) should problems arise, and it becomes clear there is no job for you, for what ever reason. A certain other UK operator does this, why not easy? Simples, lets make money out of the suckers, and hey, perhaps they get a job for a while. And if the sky turns grey, as a Parc(OAA) student, they can 'offer' you a 'great rate' on converting you back to a CPL/IR. Yet more money! Damn it why dont i set up my own FTO and get in on this money maker!

Bean counters for you.

My strongest advice for those applying is to hold on! Better things could well be just around the corner, as in JUST around the corner!

And if you are a de-selectee from the RAF, you are being paid until the 1st sept 2012 in any case! Hold your fire!

[Caudillo]

What I know about this MPL programme is from this thread, so I may not be totally clear on the minutiae of the details.

However, if you are genuinely considering this scheme - with the emphasis on the word scheme - I think you might also want to consider some form of lobotomy whilst you're at it.

This is not just the equivalent of paying above the going rate for driving lessons to be rewarded with a licence that lets you drive just an automatic - but one specific automatic owned by a bastard.

You're going to have less employment options than an illegal who has just been trafficked into Europe in the hold of a fishing boat. You're going to be able to work for one employer only. Does that sound like a recipe for decent employment? You'll be indentured servants - to save you googling that, the airline is going to be the pimp, no prizes for guessing what you're going to be.

Picture round:

http://www.cheviot.co.uk/content/107126_UK-interest-rates-1958-2008.jpg

You're a teenager, you're going to borrow 100 grand. You're not Mark Zukerberg, you're borrowing this so you can earn a qualification that will let you work for one single employer in the whole wide world - and that employer is not even a premier league football club.

Your parents saw it at 17%, you've seen it at half a percent - so let's disregard these extremes. Apart from about 6 minutes in 2001, the base rate has been above 4% for all of your brief lives. At 4-5% you'll be paying 6-7%. You will need to cough up several grand a year to hold the amount steady. Remember, don't skimp on your repayments, at 7% that puppy is going to double in size every ten years. By how much are you going to be able to actually take it down each year? Try again, on the peanuts they'll pay you, you ain't. You're going to have to live with it, like a facial tattoo. Actually, your folks are going to hve to live with that tat because they're on the hook too. No pressure then.

You can't fight these graphs, ask the Greeks.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmmm, Yes and also, No.


You will - most likely - be in a profitable airline in relatively good financial strength. Moreover promotion is still reasonably quick and will remain so for some time after the fleet growth stops. This is not some amalgamated Charter outfit with 18 years to command nor is it a legacy carrier with pension liabilities the size of Jupiter.

After three years you will be on £50,000 a year.


WWW

[Caudillo]

I'm not questioning the solvency of the airline but rather the wisdom of backing ones self into corner at such expense. Normally when you purchase something more limited - a black & white TV licence, an iPad without 3g, a train ticket that gets you into London after 11am - it comes out cheaper. Not so, in this case.

Cost aside, the debt aside, the alternative employment limitations aside; you are also presumably dragging others into this wager? I assume you're not getting 100 large unsecured off a bank, so you have to get others to stand the collateral. If you lose your job (medicals, you :mad: it up at work, oil price rises and airlines tank), you won't.. sorry, can't, get another - does the debt get written off in this case? No, but your parents can wave goodbye to retirement unless they fancy sleeping in a park bench.

In three years you'll be on £50k. Ok, sure. Nobody's going to move the goalposts on you are they? They said they wouldn't, right? We've never seen that happen at Easy have we, WWW?

In 3 years you will not want to be there any longer. In 3 years, Easyjet will have gotten an almighty taste for self-subsidised labour and what exactly can you offer them at 50 grand that someone else three years down the line can offer them for a fraction of the price? Obviously Easyjet have a huge incentive to keep you sweet and keep you there on 50 grand a year when they've got urchins banging on the door to sell their kidneys for a FO seat (yep, there's a dispensation for that, just like there's a roster dispensation for you guys).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I yield to no man in my urging of caution upon wannabes in respect to training routes and debt. Many have castigated me in the past for being the Dr Doom of these forums.

But. We have to deal with the world as it is, not as it was nor how it ought to be. Between them FlyBe and Easy represent nearly all the available UK airline job hiring and both airlines are now MPL only. Yes the terms are poor and the risk is placed almost entirely on the wannabe not the airline.

However, when I undertook my ATPL exams in the late 1990's and paid for my own IR and my own CPL and my own FIC I was taking an expensive risk entirely on my shoulders. In my first year I earned £8,000 net. In my second year I earned £18,000 net. I got lucky in my third year and got into a UK airline flying a B737 where the salary was £33,000 gross. I moved three times to three countries to climb each rung. I was lucky. I got breaks. I was never unemployed.

Typical training costs at the time were £61,000 for the CAP509 course at Prestwick. Interest rates on loans were around 7% and you could buy a freehold house for £60k.


So.


£105,000 now is not that different. Your 200th hour TT will be sat in the RHS of a factory fresh A320. You will be on £50k pa in three years time. There will be a reasonable chance of promotion within 7 or 8 years. Your employer is unlikely to go bust.

It certainly ain't no fully funded BA Cadetship. But neither is it quite the gamble and graft many people undertook at the start of their career either.

If you don't like it do your own thing, pay less money and climb the ladder the old fashioned way. You'll be doing very well to be taking home £4,500 a month net like dozens of easyJet FO's I know who are based in such hell holes as Paris and Rome..

Bit of perspective.

If finding £100k is no great problem for you and your family - and for a lot of people it seems it isn't - then you'd be mad not apply.

In a world where a crap degree from a crap university will cost you £35k and where private school fees are £10k a year for 13 years and where Grannies 3-bed-semi is worth half a million - hell maybe £105,000 is cheap. Crazy world.


WWW

[rogerg]

WWW, I can't believe you wrote the above. I also don't like the new "system" but it is one way to go and maybe not so crazy. Well done for the new pragmatic view.

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

WWW, i would agree should the scheme place you as a fully fledged FO in EZY. But that simply is not the case. You are a contractor owned by parc(OAA) on loan to Easy. Should EZY offer you a full time contract in 3 years, great. But if not what next? With any luck you will be on £50,000 a year in 3 years time, with 1500 hours, an LST and a full ATPL. There never have been guarantees in life, sure. But over 100 grand to be a contactor holding an MPL? At Flybe you are fully 'owned' by Flybe, on a 5 year bond due to the training loan. Thats 5 years the company are gonna hang on to you so as not to loose their inverstment. Ok if the poop hit the fan and redundancies occur, you still are in the chopping line, but at least you are on the seniority list and getting the 'perks' of full time employment, pension, LOL, staff travel, medicals etc etc. It is far easier to scrap contractors then full time staff. Flybe should know, they have used plenty of them in the past on the 145 and 146 fleets.

As always, you pays your money..............you takes your choice

[Caudillo]

Wait a sec, you get to be a contractor too? How much small print does this crock of a scheme have?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The Wannabe zombie army queue stretches around the corner. Each with >100k to spunk up the wall. Without blinking.



Once you comprehend that fact then everything else falls instantly into place.



In charge here for decades - this is the single most important thing I have learned.

WWW :-(

[Smell the Coffee]

The Wannabe zombie army queue stretches around the corner. Each with >100k to spunk up the wall. Without blinking.



Once you comprehend that fact then everything else falls instantly into place.



In charge here for decades - this is the single most important thing I have learned.

I can certainly see where you're coming from.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

WWW, i would agree should the scheme place you as a fully fledged FO in EZY. But that simply is not the case. You are a contractor owned by parc(OAA) on loan to Easy. Should EZY offer you a full time contract in 3 years, great. But if not what next? With any luck you will be on £50,000 a year in 3 years time, with 1500 hours, an LST and a full ATPL. There never have been guarantees in life, sure. But over 100 grand to be a contactor holding an MPL?

That is a risk. But its a small and quantifiable risk. Weighed against the chances of getting a UK based job on a twin or turboprop then there seems to be an awful lot of upside.

The financial arms race that currently defines Wannabeism is, entirely, self-inflicted. Directing your anger at the airlines is foolish.

They rapaciously negotiate down the costs of every part of their business. That is what they do. That junior First Officers are willing to self-fund ever more of their training is really not the airlines fault..

I hate it. But hey.


WWW

[jez d]

Bno2fly,

I am categorically not standing up for this scheme. However, some of your points appear to be a bit wide of the mark.


3. It's not an atpl until you get your command - no different from a 'traditional' integrated course then
5. The whole training is based on Easyjet sops which makes it invalid elsewhere - no, it doesn't. It merely limits you to the aircraft type
6. Easyjet has just reported first quarter losses of over £100m - actually it's nearly double that, but was predicted. Wait for the second quarter report
7. Easyjets up to now massive growth rate is slowing - the relevance being ?
9. With no guarantee of a job you could essentially end up with no valid license. Not even a ppl! - not according to OAA. The press release on OAA's website states: "Additionally and specifically for MPL students, OAA is also offering the further guarantee of a fully-funded OAA ‘Safety Net’ reversion to an APPFO Integrated ATPL training course in the very unlikely event that the MPL programme ceases for any reason."
10. You will have zero choice on where you will work, say good bye to your family's because Madrid and Paris are always short on crew. - nothing MPL-specific about that.
11. Your receive an Easyjet a320 type rating again based on their seps so is it really going to be valid? Even if your license is? - ??
12. It isn't yet Caa approved, although they guarantee to put through an atpl if they don't accredit it that means how many more years until your online?? - What are the chances of the CAA rejecting the course: 1,000-1 ?
13. If Easyjet really wanted the best quality guys and had guaranteed jobs they would offer full sponsorship with repayments out of salary and a legally binding agreement for 10 years employment, it feels to me like they are worried that there may not be jobs so are making it risk free for themselves, and very high risk for potential candidates - plus ca change
14. Who's to say that when you complete that they won't choose a ctc guy over you, after-all they have a full atpl and type rating too, so essentially better qualified and are probably going to be accepting a lower pay to get the job. - Why would they ? Easy are investing time and money on the course. If it's all about the bottom line (which it is) where's the logic in that ?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

It becomes an ATPL when you have 1,500hrs = 2 years experience + a 6th monthly sim check that went OK.

The company always makes a record breaking loss. Followed by a record breaking profit. We report six monthly - go figure. easyJet grew by 12% last year following the worst recession since WW2. Thats a doubling rate of less than 6 years. This is still the landgrab phase.

Nobody apply. All hold off. Eventually, quite quickly in fact, airlines would be offering fully funded cadetships again.

Ah.



WWW

[Callum Riseley]

I've been fairly active in this thread and I'm fascinated by how it's developed, some really great points being made.

I was invited to the final stage of interviews for this scheme starting next week however I've had to turn down the assessment. It turns out based on my family's finances I'm not eligible for the BBVA loan, and quite frankly I'm kind of happy. At the age of 17 I really didn't want to put my family's wealth at risk, not even if it meant achieving my dreams. I'd hardly say I'm impatient or that I'd been lured in by the marketing of the FTO's. I did my research, attended events and thought long and hard about everything.

This scheme sounds fantastic for those that can afford £100k without a secured loan. OAA is an amazing FTO (but very expensive!) and easyJet are a great airline.

But, I've decided that modular is the best route for me to take. Not only because it will work out cheaper, but for several other reasons. Firstly, I think this course removes the element of fun from learning to fly. It removes the flying hours and replaces them with multi crew sim time. Yeah, simulators can be great fun, but who can really say that diving into a CRJ sim before you can fly a Cessna beats taking up a single engine aircraft and learning from scratch how to fly a plane? I loved the 15 hours of flying time I did last year and I can't wait to get started again as a modular student flying around the local area. The hour building also looks like great fun! I have been speaking to a RYR pilot recently who crossed about 10 different countries in Europe in one day during his hour building phase. You can fly in the USA and make trips to all of the famous cities across the USA. And what's more you're in control of where and when you fly and how much it will cost!

I'm a 17 year old with no commitments at all, I've got years to sit up front of a big airliner pushing buttons. What I really want is to work my :mad: off for a few years while learning to fly. Then to leave and either build up hours as an instructor or fly regional. I'd be paid pennies but I'd be young with no debts to pay off, no kids to pay for and my log book would be filling up. I'd love to travel the world and take jobs wherever they come up. Maybe then I'd be lucky enough to get a break and start flying airliners for a living but I really can't justify risking my parents house for a course that is £60k more than the modular route and that, for me, has taken the fun out of learning to fly and being a young pilot.

Although this post is not relevant to the thread theme at all, I just wanted to partly give my advice to others who may be considering risking their parent's house to get to where they wanna be and also share my enlightenment with those that have been following this thread and thank those that have offered me advice throughout. Good luck to those attending stage 3 too.

[student88]

Callum, don't worry - you don't have to justify your decision. You made the right choice based on your circumstances.

Good luck with the flying career.

[stuckgear]

Callum,

A very respectable and logical approach. You have also broached a fundamental espect of being a professional pilot, situational awareness and risk evaluation.

Not only the modular will you have a foundation to build on your experience, but when you hit that mark, somewhere between perhaps 85 and 110 hours, you'll suddenly realise how little a pilot knows at that stage, as the saying goes, you will know enough to scare yourself.

Don't for one minute wonder again 'what might have been'. What might have been in the risk stakes could well have left you in the future regretting the risk to yourself, your professional and personal future and that of your parents.

It may seem like a long way off and I am sure you have heard it before, but you *do* have time on your side.

We all look forward to you sticking around on Pprune and sincerely wish you the best.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Callum,

The very best of luck to you. The risk was too high, and you diverted early. Nice one!

Enjoy the upcoming adventure - most of us look back longingly at the early years - the fear of the next test, the despair when there seems to be no path forward, the satisfaction when you get it right, the hairy moments and the, er, parties in far off places. Never, ever give in - and report back when you are qualified.

:)

[HidekiTojo]

Another way of looking at this from a purely financial standpoint is:

I wish I'd of started flying at 18 years of age as by now I'd (hopefully;)) be a captain and probably with a big carrier.

The 100k is a ridiculous sum but it makes more financial sense for an 18 year old rather than for instance a 28 year old. Basically the sooner you start flying, the sooner in life it is until your earning decent money.

But yes you've made a good decision as at 18 you've bugger all life experience. Hopefully there are many good applicants such as you who have made the final stage and then said 'No thanks'.

PS the CPL/IR route is way more fun than this MPL :mad: :p

[justagigolo77]

Callum,

A very respectable and logical approach. You have also broached a fundamental espect of being a professional pilot, situational awareness and risk evaluation.

Not only the modular will you have a foundation to build on your experience, but when you hit that mark, somewhere between perhaps 85 and 110 hours, you'll suddenly realise how little a pilot knows at that stage, as the saying goes, you will know enough to scare yourself.

Don't for one minute wonder again 'what might have been'. What might have been in the risk stakes could well have left you in the future regretting the risk to yourself, your professional and personal future and that of your parents.

It may seem like a long way off and I am sure you have heard it before, but you *do* have time on your side.

We all look forward to you sticking around on PPRuNe and sincerely wish you the best.


Some of the best advice and insight a young person will get on PPRUNE right there :ok: to Stuckgear

[CharlieFly]

HR Magazine - Easyjet moves to address pilot lifestyle and industrial relations (http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/hro/news/1019557/easyjet-moves-address-pilot-lifestyle-industrial-relations)

[stuckgear]

Charliefly, that post should be in T&E. it's not relevent to an ab-initio scheme nor the OAA/EZ MPL.

[CharlieFly]

Whilst I agree that it is about T&E I disagree that it is not relevant here. For those looking at participating in the OAA/EZY MPL any news regarding Pilots pay and the relationship between management and the Pilots is relevant.

[stuckgear]

Whilst I agree that it is about T&E I disagree that it is not relevant here. For those looking at participating in the OAA/EZY MPL any news regarding Pilots pay and the relationship between management and the Pilots is relevant.


completely irrelevant and red herring. 1. PARC contractors would be 'suppliers' to the company, not employees. 2. MPL'ers would not be a employment commodity on the open market. 3. the article does not address MPL candidates. 4. the article states the suggestion of working pilots though the representative body of BALPA. - BALPA cannot represent contractors.


also it's something that existing EZ pilots may want to discuss seeing as they are the ones are and have been at the 'coal face' and are BALPA represented.

it belongs in T&E and is in no way attributable to the OAA/EZ MPL ab-initio scheme.

[captainsuperstorm]

then what? what do you do with you 500h single engine plane?

join easyjet scheme is the best so far.

whatever you do, pilots are screwed.

[Boe787ing]

Easyjet/OAA launch new application dates for the Cadet mentored scheme (Oct 19th)....

I got an email to attend the interview last time but was unable to make it due to my final year University commitments. I am wondering if someone could please explain to me the problem with this scheme (apart from the money), is it not the same sort of training? Do I not get a frozen ATPL after it?

Thanks in advance

[stuckgear]

Boe787ing,

sure, try this.. MPL (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=site%3Apprune.org+mpl)

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

So how is the course progressing then?

[howflytrg]

I understand the CAA are not happy with the MPL aspects as laid out from OAA and EZY. Is this true? If so rather embarrasing for OAA.

[rogerg]

I understand the CAA are not happy with the MPL aspects as laid out from OAA and EZY. Is this true? If so rather embarrasing for OAA.

B---------t

[Boe787ing]

Stuckgear,
you are hilarious!

[Spookman]

An amazing amount of rubbish being bounded about re the MPL. The feedback from Flybe about the first 2 courses (Jerez and OAA) has reportedly been very positive indeed. It is about time flight training was brought into the 21st century.

[Boe787ing]

i dont know if anyone has read the new updated application pages for the Easyjet mentored scheme, but it seems to be offering graduates of the scheme a starting salary of well over £38,000 thru parc aviation.

Im not sure if I have read this correctly, but could someone shed some light to me about Parc aviation.

Sorry to be a pain, thanking you in advance....

[Ryan J]

Hi, where did you find the easyjet application and what is the cost to the student?

Thanks

[kingofkabul]

To be honest Ryan J, if you seriously cannot find out where to apply or how much the course costs I really wouldn't waste your time mate. If you can't be "bovvered" to use Google or even read this thread you probably can't be expected to do much else. However, if you really are interested and are just having a bad day, you will find it here:

easyJet MPL First Officer Programme | Oxford Aviation Academy - OAA.com (http://www.oaa.com/pages/schemes/easyjet.php)

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Parc is part of OAA and is their 'contract pilot suppy line' that gives hope to the output of the sausage factory. It also makes the likes of EZY very wet with the supply of fresh faced pilots hugely in debt that will accept almost any cock-up of T and Cs just to get foot in. All could be well if you perform well in training and further opportunities avail themselves in terms of full time perm contracts. Other wise it's possibly years of not affording a car whilst based at, say LGW, instead getting a metro bus pass for the fast link and living on pot noodles. Have fun and do your research. Don't be blinkered. Do your research. Be realistic of your expectations and if you have a true love of flying...........you will have a great life. Best of luck to all. It's gotta beat living in Dale Farm that's for sure! :}

DO YOUR RESEARCH and that's not just looking at salaries.

[Bearcat F8F]

There are 2 things which aren't so clear to me with regards to this program.

1) The funding. They mention BBVA, am I right in assuming it's not the same scheme that BA is implementing with it's FPP?

I quote this from OOA: "Access to bespoke secured loan from BBVA London (http://www.bbvauk.com/TLEU/tleu/jsp/uk/ing/conozca/index.jsp) to help with initial fees, available to UK residents"

Does anyone know exactly how this works?


2) Parc Aviation. It says it aims to deliver 750 hours per pilot per year, which would be great. Anyone know if that is actually likely? The word "aiming" doesn't exactly create a good feeling of security considering you will be on an hourly pay-rate.

Thanks

[Bearcat F8F]

Seriously? Wow! So someone who joins easyJet like this can potentially make a lot more money than with BA... I understand there is a massive disadvantage of being on an hourly-pay rate, but I guess that's one of the advantages! What's the maximum hours per year that CAA allows? Is it 1000?

[captain.weird]

Hi there, I have a question befor I apply.

I have the Turkish nationality, but I'm born and raised up in Germany. I have the German permanence residenceship. Do I have the unrestricted right to work and live in the UK?

Thanks..

[Bearcat F8F]

EF1S, thanks.


There is one more thing confusing me in the description. It says the following:

"Please note that candidates who were unsuccessful through the first round of applications for the OAA / easyJet (http://www.easyjet.com/) MPL FIRST OFFICER programme in April 2011 will not be eligible for consideration for the second round of applications."

When they say "1st and 2nd round", are they meaning that if you don't get in now, they will not look at you if you try to reapply in say a year or whenever the scheme opens up again?

At 1st I though they just meant that if you don't pass through phase one (online application) they will not invite you for phase 2. But the wording of it is strange as it says "round" - so when is the "2nd round" of applications going to happen?

[iFlyPilot]

Bearcat, if the applicant fails to pass the application stage for the 2011 intake, they will not be eligible to apply for this scheme again in the future.

[Bearcat F8F]

Thanks, that's exactly what I assumed.

[yannisfr]

Hi Capt Weird, you need to be a european citizen, residency is not considered as citizenship.