LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY

[AR1]

Your use of "Civilians" tells us how easy it is to get hoodwinked by the usual media and UN rhetorical foolishness.

Civilians being the words used within the UN resolution, and which of course they were until they picked up a rife. But even so, they were always 'rebels' 'opposition' and indeed still are.

[AnglianAV8R]

Sky News ticker tape reporting "French fighter jets have shot down a Libyan warplane"

[Ewan Whosearmy]

@Draken55

Thanks. I missed that.

[draken55]

"French fighter jets have shot down a Libyan warplane"

If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.

Brit Top Guns and allies toast destruction of Cnl Gaddafi’s air force | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3487789/Brit-Top-Guns-and-allies-toast-destruction-of-Cnl-Gaddafis-air-force.html)

[ORAC]

A Galeb - report by ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=13210685&sid=76)

Libyan strongman Moammar Gadhafi challenged the allies' no-fly zone for the first time today, sending up a warplane over the city of Misrata where it was quickly shot down by French fighter jets, a senior French military official said.

The plane launched by Gadhafi was a "galeb," a single-engine military aircraft.

http://www.xairforces.net/images/country/libya/G-2E_LARAF_10205.jpg

[Finningley Boy]

"French fighter jets have shot down a Libyan warplane"

If true more than a little surprising given the confident message in the Forces favourite tabloid.



According to the "Forces Favourite Tabloid" today, the Chancellor reduced the duty on fuel for it's readers!

You've got to love the sombre erudite depth of the forces favourite tabloid.:ok:

FB:)

[Robert Cooper]

It was a Soko G-2 Galeb. It's a Yugoslav made trainer with minimal combat capabilities. It's a very good trainer though and can do good ground support.

Bob C

[airsound]

Bob - are you saying you know it was a Galeb that was splashed?

airsound

[draken55]

"a very good trainer though and can do good ground support"

Or drop something really nasty on the rebels?

[TwoStep]

What else does the Rafale have to do to get an international sale, first air-to-air kill, two operational theatres under its belt...

[draken55]

And comes in land based and carrier borne versions:{

[dead_pan]

What else does the Rafale have to do to get an international sale


Err, not be French?

Whereabouts was this - near Misrata?

[Robert Cooper]

Airsound
The media over here are reporting it as a Galeb.

Bob C

[crg28]

Be cheaper than the F-18's/Grippen being offered to Brazil.....Lula was ready to pull the trigger until the Brazilians started crying about the "supposed" price of the French offer...add the pressures from the White House and no sales....

1st sale likely wont be a high profit making event for Dassault...If they saw it as a door to sales elsewhere and took a hit with the Brazilians, we would probably be seeing Rafale's down in Santa Cruz, RJ already.

[MAINJAFAD]

BBC reports Aircraft had landed, and was engaged with an ASM, oh dear no air to air kill for the French AF there.

[Easy Street]

Aircraft had landed, and was engaged with an ASM, oh dear no air to air kill for the French AF


If that's true, and the French claim it as a kill anyway, the RAF should retrospectively claim the one destroyed on Op GRANBY by Tornado GR1 'MiG Eater' with a JP233!

MiG Eater (http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/pics/gulfwar/torn/Tornado%20GR1%20ZA447%20'EA'%20Mig%20Eater%20(RTB%20Laarbruc h).jpg)

[The Helpful Stacker]

Didn't a Bucc crew hit a taxying aircraft during GW1 too?

[BOAC]

BBC reports Aircraft had landed, and was engaged with an ASM - terribly unsporting, what?

[Robert Cooper]

Local news channel reporting that the French Joint Chiefs have issued a statement saying the aircraft was destroyed on the ground by an ASM. Apparently it had just landed.

Bob C

[TEEEJ]

Rumours that it was an AASM - Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (Air-to-Ground Modular Weapon) used to take out the Soko Galeb.

AASM - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASM)

TJ

[dead_pan]

Any reports on what is was up to during its flight? Hopefully it wasn't some stude just completing his solo.

Serious point - if an aircraft does take off, would RoE typically require it to be challenged before it is engaged to give it an opportunity to land? Or does the fact it has violated the UN resolution mean that it can be engaged with no requirement for a challenge to be issued?

[Lonewolf_50]

Superb question, but one might ask how one hails a jet in that situation? Can the French pilot assume that the Libyan pilot speaks French? Probably not. Should he not be hailed in Arabic? Oh, wait, don't we have Arab League fighters up there sustaining the NFZ? Would that not be handy to have someone hail ... assuming the dialects for different nations among Arabic speakers didn't muddle the hail ...

On the other hand

He went up to fly, and then very soon went back down to ground, so at the time of the attack, he was not violating the "no fly zone" though one can argue "hot pursuit" and such ...

A message well sent by our Froggy Friends: you fly, you die.

[draken55]

Back to the USAF for a moment. Interesting story on post incident treatment for Eagle pilots:)

Pilots Rescued in Libya Undergo Psychological and Medical Screening - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/International/pilots-rescued-libya-undergo-psychological-medical-screening/story?id=13204719)

[Fareastdriver]

Pilots Rescued in Libya Undergo Psychological and Medical Screening - ABC News

Poor darlings.

[dead_pan]

They should have seen how chipper the old farmer who lost his leg was - he wasn't in need of any stress counselling. Mind you, he was probably looking forward to that huge (by his standards) compensation payout.

[Lonewolf_50]

Lt. Cmdr. Jim Hoeft,a spokesman for the Libyan campaign, Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn, called the F-15 flight crew's ordeal "a negative isolating experience," and said reintegration was intended to get them from "the incident back to their normal duty status." Hoeft said an important part of reintegration was creating a stress-free environment for the crew.

I'd think that part of the stress they are currently under is dealing with all of the shrinks, wellness hounds, and touchy feely nitwits who are showering them with excessive attention.

There was a time when, if one had a mishap that required an ejection, the institutional response was to pull out green felt for the board the aircrew would be sitting at soon after ...

Times have changed.

Glad the crew are around to eventually tell their squadron mates just what happened.

[rduarte]

For all the english friends,have a look of the french Navy Power :

Dailymotion - Libye : appareillage et montée en puissance du porte-avions Charles de Gaulle - une vidéo News & Politics (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhrjzo_libye-appareillage-et-montee-en-puissance-du-porte-avions-charles-de-gaulle_news)

[SINGAPURCANAC]

according to my information, Libyan G-2 (Actually it is G-3, imported version of Soko Galeb G-2 ,slightly different) "survived ' 3 air-to air attacks,before it was destroyed once when landed with air to ground missile.
If this rumour is confirmed than I have to say:
:ok::D:ok::D:ok::D:
to Libyan pilot and,more important:
\:confused::{:yuk::yuk::(:E:E:E:E
to "coalition" pilot

[draken55]

rduarte

Merci bien!

Please be advised that our carrier is on the way:(

Warship HMS Invincible leaves Portsmouth for the final time - East Hampshire - The News (http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/local/east-hampshire/warship_hms_invincible_leaves_portsmouth_for_the_final_time_ 1_2529762)

[airpolice]

Even by Telegraph standards, this is pathetic. In the unlikely event that there are any "proper" English teachers out there, this would be a great example text. On the other hand, a Careers advisor could use it to show how people can get a decent job without any of what we might call the required skills.



Flight Lieutenant Helen Seymour, 31, is usually based at RAF Coningsby but is currently stationed at the southern Italian airbase of Gioia del Colle.


She took to the skies yesterday for a seven-hour mission alongside two other Typhoons and two Tornados, returning safely to Italy in the afternoon.

Female pilots have flown in combat before, including in Harrier and Tornado GR4 aircraft over Afghanistan.


But Flt Lt Seymour, a former Tornado pilot, became the only RAF pilot to have flown the Typhoon in combat with after the allied western effort to enforce the UN-implemented no-fly zone over Libya gave the RAF its first opportunity to use Typhoons in a war zone.


Britain has sent about a dozen of the £70 million supersonic jets – which can fly at twice the speed of sound at 65,000ft – to bolster the international campaign.

[Finningley Boy]

Its the mumbo jumbo of trying to say things as indirectly as possible that really irritates these days. "Faith Based Counselling" in other words, the Padre popped round to see how they getting on, over a cup of tea/coffee and a biscuit.

FB:)

[MPN11]

OMG, the bludgy Media have found a female pilot. :ugh:

I worked professionally with women in the RAF for 30 years.
Apart from having differently-shaped sweaters, who gives a sh 1t?

That said, she clearly has balls.
Fly safe, along with everyone else who actually have them :ok:

[teeteringhead]

BBC reports Aircraft had landed, and was engaged with an ASM
- terribly unsporting, what? .... if it were a game bird BOAC perhaps, but all's fair ......

[Lower Hangar]

Awesome - the Rafale looks the dogs b******cks - I note the old Etendard (aka Hong Kong Dart in '82) is still strop launched - but as I said - awesome

Lower Hangar

[glad rag]

I can see the F35 purchase getting further and further away now that the rafale can be seen to "do the stuff" ..........................

[Lower Hangar]

Could be - its already got a GA role - Don't think the Typhoon has - yet ??

Lower Hangar

[TEEEJ]

SINGAPURCANAC,

Who are your sources? I hope that they are not being generated by any members of the old Yugoslav Ministry of Information?

Next he'll be a steely eyed Serb mercenary who used the Galeb to shoot down the F-15E? :rolleyes:

TJ

[TEEEJ]

Lower Hangar,

Typhoon has demonstrated that capability. Paveway II and the Mauser 27mm cleared for service.

RAF Coningsby - News and Weather (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=E3126181-1143-EC82-2E061562D70F1FBA)

http://www.xisquadron.co.uk/News/AFM_GF/KingsofSwing.pdf

TJ

[draken55]

TEEEJ


I think the PR release omitted the word limited before ground attack capability. Paveway 2 yes but Brimstone and Storm Shadow?

If not, Typhoon would be off to Afghanstan and Tornado GR4 the wild blue yonder like the F3.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

teeej,
I haven't seen the reason to answer your question Who are your sources?
:E
I hope that they are not being generated by any members of the old Yugoslav Ministry of Information?
No ,my source is Jamie Shea(or something like this) famous for "collateral damage" :E:E

and what kind of problem do you have? You have already mentioned 5 times ex-Yugoslav faces or events. Could you be pleased to inform us about connection to two cases?
I just react to that type of story ,that is generally speaking , very "intentionally" .
there is no any direct connection,but you try to make it.
And at least some things is not secret,probably it has been written million of times so far.

And nobody claim that G-3 could shot down anything. it is not the purpose of it. It is light jet trainer with some,very limited ground capabilities and two gun 12.7mm(if I remember correctly) for "air defense" :ugh:

My idea and logic,said that Libyans use G-3 for "mask" purpose. They send one G-3 on some suicide mission, in order to move fighters/bombers from some other hot spots.
it has been done very effectively in the past.

And I hope that you wouldn't ask again for source. :E

[phil9560]

You've got to love the language barrier haven't you ?

[TEEEJ]

draken55,

The PR release specifically mentions that and doesn't elude to anything but a limited weapons capacity.

There are no plans at present to deploy Typhoon to Afghanistan or Iraq

RAF Coningsby - News and Weather (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafconingsby/newsweather/index.cfm?storyid=E3126181-1143-EC82-2E061562D70F1FBA)

TJ

[TEEEJ]

SINGAPURCANAC,

Well you haven't answered my question in my previous reply. You were obviously under the impression that NATO had substantial hidden manned aircraft losses back in Yugoslavia during 1999. The language barrier has got in the way in reference to the Galeb/F-15. Obviously you missed the roll eyes (sarcastic) emoticon?

They send one G-3 on some suicide mission, in order to move fighters/bombers from some other hot spots.
it has been done very effectively in the past.

Of course they did and nobody noticed. All eyes were trained on the Galeb! Did they fire up and move the Tu-22 Blinders? :rolleyes:

And I hope that you wouldn't ask again for source.

Go on spill the beans. Venik, Libyan Ministry of Information? I won't ask again as you are obviously making it up as you go along.

TJ

[draken55]

TEEEJ

So although it's partially true to say the Typhoon can do Ground Attack that's only if you need P2 and/or a Gun. Hence why Typhoon is no use at present for Afghanistan, a conflict close in nature to what Libya may become.

Over Libya there seems no shortage of AD FJ's. The possible shortfall is Ground Attack, especially if the US steps back as it seems to want to do.

For the UK that puts all the onus on the GR4 as only it can carry all the stores that might be needed. What if this drags on?

[TEEEJ]

Draken55,

I note from the serials that the Typhoons deployed are all FGR4s. If there is a requirement for more ground attack then surely the Typhoon could carry a mixed load? I would imagine that the limiting factor is the number of pilots cleared for air to ground? What is the difference between Canadians flying this air defence load with LGBs and an FGR4 cleared for Paveway II? If push came to shove could it be done?

Canadian CF-18 pictured taking off for a mission over Libya.

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee239/Sadsackoilers/ckd99-2082-01.jpg

Canadian CF-18s bomb Libyan ammunition depot in first attack of campaign - Yahoo! News (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-cf-18s-bomb-libyan-depot-first-attack-20110323-102102-603.html)

TJ

[27mm]

I don't understand why the rebels aren't making short shrift of Gaddafi's armour in urban areas - they must be sitting ducks for RPGs.

[M609]

RNoAF F-16 began flying missions with air to ground weapons fit over Libya yesterday, with missions last night as well.

From first mission departure yesterday (From Dagbladet.no - forsiden (http://www.dagbladet.no))

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/159/159443/15944341/jpg/active/978x.jpg

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Airpolice

What's wrong with the article? And why would a 'proper' English teacher use it as an example text?

[dead_pan]

Reports today that the UAE have agreed to send 6 F16s and 6 Mirages to participate in the NFZ, just over a week after they sent a contingent of police to Bahrain to assist with the dispersal of protestors.

Does.....not.....compute....zzztt

[draken55]

TEEJ

The US wants others to be in the lead on Libya. Having supported the initial attacks they seem keen to step back. When they do who steps up? There seems no shortage of support for the NFZ but less for bombing missions bar the usual dependable nations and France.

Typhoon will then need to play a role as you suggest along with the GR4. I really do hope this does not become a drawn out affair but the current signs are not promising.

[Lonewolf_50]

draken, I will point out that NFZ over Northern Iraq and Southern Iraq were long, drawn out operations. I expect that NFZ over Libya will be at least an extended op thanks to the nature of the beastie.

Question on the Norwegian Falcons/Vipers:

From wingtip station in to center line, munitions load out appears to be:

Air to Air (guessing something like Sidewinder)
Small Air to Ground
Medium Air to Ground (Looks a little like an LGB)
Aux Fuel Tank
Nothing on centerline.


Why no fins on the fuel tanks? :confused:
EDIT: Hmmm, I think I may see very small fins at 3 and 9 position, picture not crystal clear. NVM.

A few other comments.


The PR release specifically mentions that and doesn't elude to anything but a limited weapons capacity. There are no plans at present to deploy Typhoon to Afghanistan or Iraq
Allude. :cool:

I don't understand why the rebels aren't making short shrift of Gaddafi's armour in urban areas - they must be sitting ducks for RPGs.

Perhaps most of the rebels are crappy shots. One is left with the impression that the irregulars far outnumber those with military training among rebel ranks. An RPG doesn't aim itself.

From the article on our Maple Leafed Hornets expending ordnance:
U.S. Rear Adm. Gerard Hueber, one of the senior coalition commanders, was quoted Wednesday saying the coalition was targeting Gadhafi's tanks, artillery, mobile missile sites as well as ammunition depots and other military supplies in Misrata and Ajdabiya.
That's a bit more than "a no fly zone" there, Admiral ... :cool:

But Turkey is reportedly concerned the air strikes have already exceeded the UN mandate.

That concern looks to be well founded.

[dead_pan]

Nothing on centerline


There is a designator pod of some sort on both a/c. I'll leave it to the spotters to advise exactly what make + type.

[Lonewolf_50]

From that photo, I was unable to figure out if it is hung on CL station. If one is there for the LGBs, I missed it. Blame it on old age? :confused:

[MAINJAFAD]

RNoAF F-16s in the photo have an ECM pod on the centerline station from the looks of it (Looks like the old AN/ALQ-131(V) off the F-111F, I don't know the current desigation for the current US ECM pods). The RNoAF F-16s use the AN/AAQ-33 PANTERA/Sniper XL designator pod, which is mounted on a plyon mounted on the side of the air intake.

[LowObservable]

A lot of pods look like ALQ-131 because the shape is cleared.

Closest aircraft has a "slick" bomb - probably JDAM - to port and LGB to starboard. I think I can make out a TDP (Norway has Sniper) on the stbd inlet pylon.

Not to mention IRIS-T AAMs, which by all accounts are a good way of explaining to obtuse individuals exactly what "no fly" means.

[M609]

The Norwegian MOD has a released a few pics in very high res on their media site:

(Warning for low bandwith users, quite large files. All from Forside - Forsvaret.no (http://www.forsvaret.no))

IMG 1 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/lmh-kreta63.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E595740C6 9D4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D77665 7569E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A331210258D95E7C7AE2D6C1C5 40F5389850FA2DEEE60419237F3A9E646CC79A9CDE3DF83EEECFDCCA26F5 5C5A797BECF42D995B20ED050E54A5B17351CE5124CBDF)

IMG 2 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/lmh-kreta60.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E595740C6 9D4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D77665 7569E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A331210258D95E7C7AE2D6C1C5 40F5389850E5140AEBC30CBEDB3A9E646CC79A9CDE3DF83EEECFDCCA26F5 5C5A797BECF42D995B20ED050E54A5B17351CE5124CBDF)

IMG 3 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/nroaf.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E595740C69D 4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D7766575 69E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A331AFFDBED72CE498EFBD3F518F F74679FBF05B1963D11CBE7D827F065CF04290096487F0BC8E3E717D4312 0E1A246B312D68938699ECD600F9)

IMG 4 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/IMG9894857.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E59574 0C69D4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D77 6657569E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A33149162B0550380EA6880 C78F50A83868E3A9E646CC79A9CDE3DF83EEECFDCCA26F55C5A797BECF42 D995B20ED050E54A5B17351CE5124CBDF)

IMG 5 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/IMG_4864.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E595740C 69D4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D7766 57569E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A331E7307A9135F6A45D5317C 85921BBEBBC9F988A4B13700E8A87EE6AB5056A29A57D529294828992F07 8C9554C4638B5788F4052243ADD80AD)

IMG 6 (http://mediearkiv.forsvaret.no/FotoWeb/FWbin/download.dll/IMG_4928.jpg?D=AD2DA8A3FC1A0AB7E325943AB3431184C17B1E595740C 69D4762B68F2A153288A91D6B8745D285E3649DD00CF294A1B5CBB1D7766 57569E9C5FB1983E193F1A329DB32383012A3313D58F350A5298A1A3C48D 533D1FAB90D9F988A4B13700E8A87EE6AB5056A29A57D529294828992F07 8C9554C4638B5788F4052243ADD80AD)

[draken55]

So could this be the next step? Would it gather international support or just be the start of mission creep? Beware PM:(

Libya: Now we must arm the insurgents so that Gaddafi can be toppled - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8404827/Libya-Now-we-must-arm-the-insurgents-so-that-Gaddafi-can-be-toppled.html)

[LS-4]

Lonewolf_50,

What about paragraph 4 in Security Council Resolution 1973 (http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N11/268/39/PDF/N1126839.pdf?OpenElement)?

The mandate seems to extend beyond an NFZ operation.


Safe ops!

[500N]

I saw a report saying that some Arab countries were already supplying the "rebels" with Small arms and Ammunition.


Also, why is it the media has to write about 250 - 350 SF forces already operating in Libya ? Most would know it is happening but to make a big exposay out of it ???

[MPN11]

I become ever more concerned by this entanglement, as it drifts gently from NFZ to arms supply to ... somewhere

What next? A few spare Challengers from BFG being delivered at Benghazi docks?

Either NATO goes flat out for 'regime change', thus alienating a large swathe of the Arab community, or it does what it said on the box in NCR 1973 ... "No Fly", albeit with that fuzzily-worded rider about zapping ground forces threatening the 'civilian' population.

IMO, the dissident/rebellious/[insert preferred description] civilian population are NOT going to overthrow The Duck by driving around in pickups armed with AKs and RPGs as long as he has the Army behind him. Attacking his military vehicles with, apparently, free rein doesn't seem to be quite consonant with the original concept of 'protecting civilians'.

It's a pig's orphan eating a dog's breakfast at the moment.

[dead_pan]

Would it gather international support


I did hear Ban Ki Moon talking about the UN taking additional measures if the regime did not fully comply with 1973. Frankly I think there would be zero appetite amongst the security council for anything more, given the debacle over this resolution. We're going to have to make the best of what we already have. Lets hope the French don't further complicate matters by getting this political committee to oversee and guide the military operation - its complicated enough already.

[500N]

MPN

The article stated that Arabs also want regime change (hence the arms supply - but on the quiet), the problem is, no one seems to want to go the whole hog. In some ways understandably.

[Lonewolf_50]

Apparently, the mad Colonel has made zero friends among his fellow Arab potentates. So, he's expendable, in their eyes. Not a surprise.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Nato Commander will be a Canadian, Lt Gen Charles Bouchard. Quebecois so speaks French. Helo pilot with a US Army exchange tour. Last tour as Deputy Commander NORAD. Make of that what you will.

[ghostnav]

Meanwhile, we are all getting frazzled by nuclear fallout from Japan! Anyone know if there is a chart like they had for the volcano ash? Suppose the Typhoon guys and girl(s)? flying at high altitude will collect it first.

[MPN11]

Meanwhile the BBC is reporting further developments in Syria [FFS] and Yemen.

Wasn't it just one bloke in Tunisia that started this all?
I do hope his God is looking after him ... because there's a lot of dead people as a consequence of what he did.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

One man can push over an elephant, but only if the elephant is balancing on the edge of a cliff...

[Willard Whyte]

Seems a bit churlish to blame the deaths of others on the poor sod who immolated himself in Tunisia.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

wikipedia Mohamed Bouazizi
But he didn't put the elephant on the edge of the cliff

[MPN11]

Seems a bit churlish to blame the deaths of others on the poor sod who immolated himself in Tunisia.
No blame, just perhaps unintended consequences. "Collateral Damage", if you will.


And now Fox is reporting 'turbulence' in Jordan. :sad:
You could have thought that was almost the last place it could happen.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Once met King Hussein. This has always been a possibility in Jordan. Very tricky during GW1.
Kuwait is quiet. I believe the Emir has just handed every citizen a wad of cash. Simples.

[Willard Whyte]

It'll be 'interesting' to see if this affects flights in and out of theater that transit the region.

[SRENNAPS]

BBC News - Syria: Protests in Deraa, Damascus, Hama and Homs (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12858972)

Wonder how many here are demonstrating thinking that they will be protected by a NFZ

Hell Man,
I would be interested to hear your recommendation on how we should deal with Syria?

[TEEEJ]

Brimstone being deployed from Tornado GR4 against Libyan armour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p6RTs0RH9U

TJ

[M609]

Today a RNoAF 2-ship 3 bombs enemy tanks, destroying 2. (2 GBU12 and 1 GBU54 by the looks of it)

The other aircraft in the flight is shown after landing sans bombs in a video released to media.

http://forsvaret.no/sites/video/PublishingImages/forste%20dropp/forste_dropp_1.mp4

Good job lads!

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/video/splash/ani_41678_978.jpg

[500N]

TEEEJ

That first tank looks like it had already been hit once.

Any comment ?


Well done to those enforcing the NFZ.

[Easy Street]

That first tank looks like it had already been hit once.

Any comment ?

The first tank goes up with a series of explosions, almost like a roman candle, which I reckon is the magazine going off. So even if the tank had been hit before (which there is no way of telling from the video) this attack has destroyed all the (salvageable) ammo and ensured that the tank is definitely 'beyond use'.

Good work chaps; nice to see the Brimstone warhead being used for its intended purpose!

[racedo]

Felt from Day 1 a NFZ was just a mealy mouthed attempt at regime change under another name done soley to aid Western Oil firms who will quite happily pay for Mercenaries and Weapons to be delivered to their clients.

Dragging this into a war against a muslim Infidel (Gadaffi) just ensure the elimination of a secular dictator to be replace by an Islamic dictator allied in with the Saudi's.

Getting kind of tired to see good men put in harms way to suit the House of Saud and its attempt to bring all muslims under its umbrella.

Bahrain taken over and west goes quiet, Yemen attacks its people and everyone goes quiet but its just opponents of the House of Saud that are the enemies.

[NorthernKestrel]

Interesting thoughts here - even if we manage to scrape through this again and the rebels win - will it confirm SDSR cuts rather than revoke them?

Initial analysis - Libyan No Fly Zone | Aerospace Insight | The Royal Aeronautical Society (http://www.aerosocietychannel.com/aerospace-insight/2011/03/initial-analysis-no-fly-zone/)

Plus.. close air support in urban areas - are we gonna need boots on the ground anyone in the form of JTACs?

[SASless]

Enforcing a "No Fly" dictate....by destroying Tanks???:rolleyes:

Where's the "Bush Lied" protesters these days?

[Squirrel 41]

SASLess,

It was always much more than an NFZ; the surprise to me of UNSCR 1973 was that it was so clear (in Operative Paragraph 4) that force could be used against anyone presenting a threat to civilians.

No case of "Bush lied" here.

S41

[moggiee]

MPN

The article stated that Arabs also want regime change (hence the arms supply - but on the quiet), the problem is, no one seems to want to go the whole hog. In some ways understandably.
Perhaps not the best choice of words!

[lomapaseo]

Quote: The article stated that Arabs also want regime change (hence the arms supply - but on the quiet), the problem is, no one seems to want to go the whole hog. In some ways understandably.
Originally Posted by 500N http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/443720-libya-nfz-merged-use-thread-only-post6330670.html#post6330670)
MPN

The article stated that Arabs also want regime change (hence the arms supply - but on the quiet), the problem is, no one seems to want to go the whole hog. In some ways understandably.

Perhaps not the best choice of words!


OK, how about the whole "enchilada"

[Modern Elmo]

From Initial analysis - Libyan No Fly Zone | Aerospace Insight | The Royal Aeronautical Society:

The fact that both the USMC and Italian Navy have deployed AV-8s may therefore strengthen those who believe that the aircraft could still be recovered and put back into service – but that would be a major embarrassment to the Government and MoD. ...

No, the Navy Dept. wants to retire its Harriers and replace them with F-35B's operated from America-class escort carriers-in-all-but-name. Likewise, the UK shouldn't cling too long to yesteryear's VSTOL aircraft.

Notice that F-18's could have been used to do everything the Harriers have done so far, except perhaps a CSAR mission on short notice. The Navy/USMC wanted its Harriers and LHA ships to get some publicity.

... I don't expect this Libya stuff to turn out very well, in terms of making North Africka safe for democracy, separation of church and state, etc.

However, the Libya no fly zone is a useful festival for aerospace advertising, marketing and sales. It will probably end up being stimulative for Western economies, at least the manufacturing sectors thereof.

[TEEEJ]

CF-18 Advanced Targeting Pod - Destruction of Libyan weapons depot - March 23, 2011.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81sUyZpUo5U

Canadian Forces Image Gallery (http://www.combatcamera.forces.gc.ca/site/home-eng.asp)

Tornado GR4 mission from RAF Marham to Libya including refuelling from 216 Sqn TriStar - March 22, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pntwuQtwt3U

Tornado GR4 continue to fly sorties from Gioia Del Colle - March 23, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubotyWqmPf4

RAF Typhoon arrives back at Gioia del Colle Air Base, Italy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De_ZG5NF58g


RAF Typhoons fly first mission - March 21, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbuw-wf03E8

More Ministry of Defence videos at the following.

YouTube - defenceheadquarters's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/defenceheadquarters)

TJ

[Easy Street]

TEEJ's third video shows GR4 carrying 2 x ASRAAM - a new clearance rushed through for this op? Looks like the old girl has a sting in the tail for her last few years in service!

[Thelma Viaduct]

How long will it take HMS Ocean to get within striking range?

[SASless]

S41,

My point is Barry Boy et al has described this as a 'No Fly Zone" operation and that it would only last a few days...no boots on the ground....and we're off for Gongs and group hugs. It was predicated upn a "humanitarian crisis" not military reasons. In 24 hours Barry Boy went from "The Thug must go"....to "We are not targetting the Thug". If Dubya was in the chair....the Code Pink bunch and all the other radical Left groups would have been doing the Hue and Cry scene egged on and suported by the Main Stream media.

Fact.....to this time....Barry Boy has not addressed the Nation and explained why we are at War with Libya.

I am confused by all this....Barry Boy et al are claiming we have to stop Big Nose from murdering his own citizens....and we are doing this by......killing his citizens (that support him).

I suggest we should have started by killing one Libyan for sure....Gaddafi himself and perhaps all of his seed as possible.

[just another jocky]

TEEJ's third video shows GR4 carrying 2 x ASRAAM - a new clearance rushed through for this op? Looks like the old girl has a sting in the tail for her last few years in service!

Clearance was out well before this op m8, even before they started getting uppity. ;)

[Two's in]

Quite amazing to see the last vestiges of a credible RAF being used to plink tanks, but when you look at CAS's strategic priorities, there it is larger than life:

Introduce Typhoon into operational service and, as swiftly as possible, provide the aircraft with a robust all-weather multi-role capability
So we can check that box now.

Modern Elmo nailed it:

However, the Libya no fly zone is a useful festival for aerospace advertising, marketing and sales. It will probably end up being stimulative for Western economies, at least the manufacturing sectors thereof.

[Two's in]

Fact.....to this time....Barry Boy has not addressed the Nation and explained why we are at War with Libya.

Fact #2: Barry has launched more cruise missiles against a sovereign nation than all the other Nobel Peace prize winners combined.

[MPN11]

I don't think "murder by UNSCR 1973" was on the agenda ... although perhaps someone was vaguely hoping to be able to say "Whoops, sorry about that, Mrs Gadaffi ...".

The approved mission surely remains to stop The Duck murdering civilians? Which is a foggy scenario anyway, as well know. The civilians are revolting, The Duck doesn't like that and reacts with violence ... so we attack The Duck's civilians [who may, or may not, be in the military]. FFS, who dug this political hole for the military to sit in?

And will the next Nation care to step up to the plate for another UNSCR Resolution? We seem to have a few contenders who are also shooting civilians, and that's where I wonder [as do many others here, I believe] just where we're headed with this philosophy.

US Global Policeman?
This guy has OIL?
We hate him anyway?
He doesn't agree with our views?
He sponsors terrorism?


There are plenty who fit those parameters [perm any two from five].

Or is it just that The Duck is flavour of this month, and we'll all be dropping stuff on Yemen, Bahrein, Syria, Jordan and a few other places with sand in April? [May, June, July, August .... etc]

[Tourist]

Here's an idea.
Why don't we all use their real names, rather than "Barry Boy" and "the Duck"?
Neither is in any way funny and is strangely infantile.

[MPN11]

I shall in future refer to the "Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriyaas" as "Muammar Muhammad al-Gaddafi"

I hope that helps you, and also addresses my incipient infantilism. :mad:

[LS-4]

My guess, although not necessarily being very informed, is that concerns for various interests will often be part of our political reality. Regardless of that, UNSCR 1973 is alive and being enforced.

I respect and share some concerns for some of the potential consequences of this action (bearing e.g. the Balkans in mind), but nonetheless I like to think that we're doing something right. I figure that the UN should have its reasons for the resolution and that some real moral considerations have been put into it.

I also have some thoughts and questions regarding responses to events in countries such as Sudan, Yemen, Syria etc. I can only guess that many considerations enter into this. We live in a complex and somewhat unfair world filled with unknowns, dilemmas, hard decisions etc. We can only do our best. Doing something might beat doing nothing. An inch is a mile, if you like.

Cheers

[Willard Whyte]

MPN11, you forgot 'King of Kings of Africa'. Quite a recent accolade that one, August '08.

Tourist, chill out.

[high spirits]

Could we be witnessing another Kosovo - where Air Power is decisive in changing the outcome? Watch this space in my opinion. Air power... and sub launched TLAMs - but no boots and no expensive 'stay-cation' on foreign soil.

[TEEEJ]

Easy Street wrote

TEEJ's third video shows GR4 carrying 2 x ASRAAM - a new clearance rushed through for this op? Looks like the old girl has a sting in the tail for her last few years in service!

Not a clearance for this op. I saw them being tested back in early February by 41 Squadron.

TJ

[Easy Street]

Could we be witnessing another Kosovo - where Air Power is decisive in changing the outcome?

Don't forget that Kosovo ended with the very real threat of ground force deployment... this time we have explicity said that we will not be occupying Libya (I accept that there is room for manoeuvre there, but I cannot see us sending even a short-term deployment of "green" army).

Air power... and sub launched TLAMs - but no boots and no expensive 'stay-cation' on foreign soil.

None of our boots is the critical thing here. Some boots will be needed - hopefully Libyans themselves; if not, then hopefully some other regional powers can be persuaded to step in.

I agree with your overall thrust, though. If the use of air and sea power does the business unaided (from a NATO point of view) then it would be a major boost for those who have championed the role of the RAF throughout a decade where it has been consistently portrayed as a "supporting" service, both by the uneducated and the malicious.

[Daysleeper]

How long will it take HMS Ocean to get within striking range?

On the basis that as of Friday night it was alongside in Devonport...ship ais (http://www.marinetraffic.com/ais/default.aspx?oldmmsi=234643000&zoom=10&olddate=3/25/2011%209:43:41%20PM) really quite a long time indeed.

[Easy Street]

Can someone explain to me what taking out Libyan Army armoured vehicles with smart bombs (as I've seen RAF Tornadoes doing on TV) has to do with a no-fly zone? (yawn) UNSCR 1973 authorises all necessary measures to protect civilians from attack; this includes destroying tanks where they are thought to be threatening populated areas. I thought that was pretty clear from a week's worth of news reports and posts on here?

All that has been ruled out is a ground occupation; even a short-term ground intervention is arguably within the scope of 1973 (that does not mean I think it would be a good idea!)

[Easy Street]

Sounds like RAPTOR is being used to locate Gadaffi's armour before sending in coalition aircraft to mop them up. The informative quote below is pasted from the "more info" section of the following Youtube clip posted by MoD:

YouTube - RAF TORNADO GR4 STRIKES LIBYAN TANKS

The following Telegraph report suggests that the Gioia det have indeed "checked in, not dug in". What with Storm Shadow, RAPTOR and Brimstone this is turning out to be quite a demonstration of the capability of an 'obsolete' aircraft.

Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8406161/RAF-Tornado-jets-target-Libyan-tanks-in-Ajdabiya.html)

Time line Info below:

23 March 2011

An RAF TORNADO GR4 recce mission on the 23 Mar generated RAPTOR imagery identifying Gadaffi's ground forces in a hostile posture 2.5 miles S of AJDABIYA. The imagery was sent to the! RAF's Tactical Imagery Wing (TIW) cell within the JFACHQ in Ramstein for analysis.

24 March 2011

At 1335Z a pair of RAF TORNADO GR4 took off from Gioia del Colle tasked with an Armed Reconnaissance mission in the AJDABIYA area.

At 1435Z, soon after the TORNADO'S arrival over AJDABIYA, the Coalition Combined Air Operations Centre (CAOC) in Ramstein passed the coordinates of a number of Libyan Main Battle tanks to Coalition aircraft in the area; this included the two RAF TORADO'S. The information had been supplied by the TIW Cell based on their assessment of the imagery collected on the previous day.

The TORNADO'S arrived over the target area and identified 4 x MBT. The tanks were still positioned 2.5 miles south of AJDABIYA, with barrels elevated and pointing north towards the town. They were deemed to have clear hostile intent. Other Coalition aircraft located and identified the remaining 6 x MBT.

The TORNADO'S th! en rendezvoused with the VC10 tanker on station in the area for fuel while the other Coalition aircraft identified and engaged their targets; destroying 6 x MBT.

At 1450 post refuelling, the RAF TORNADO'S returned to the target area and, having re-confirmed the targets were still in a hostile posture and that the area was clear of civilians, successfully engaged the 4 x MBT with Brimstone missiles.

One of the Strikes was delayed when a civilian vehicle was spotted close to the target, with the aircraft re-engaging once the vehicle was outside of the danger area.

Initial Battle Damage Assessment indicates all three MBT were destroyed.

At 1735Z the TORNADO'S landed back at Gioia del Colle.

[SASless]

Now as I recall....there was an almighty crying about maintaining OPSEC by the usual suspects....where is the whining now that the RAF itself is providing all sorts of details as to bases, weapons, aircraft, and the like?

Gone awfully quiet all of a sudden!

But....we do need to brag a bit so that trumps OPSEC does it?

[Easy Street]

All this stuff gets vetted by the deployed units themselves and then by the operational-level HQ before being released to Media Ops. That is very different from people "mouthing off" on here with no oversight, as was happening a week ago!

I also suspect that the (very detailed) information being released is part of a campaign to show Gadaffi's remaining forces that their only chance of survival is to defect now. Just as he is trying (unsuccessfully) to show that we are killing his civilians, in order to fracture the coalition. When he does it, it's called propaganda; when we do it, it's called Info Ops :yuk:. Obviously someone has decided that the risk to OPSEC is outweighed by the possible operational advantage to be gained... we'll see...

[high spirits]

Sasless,
Why is it that when the RAF do a bit of positive pr, the bell goes off on the prune outrage bus? I seem to recall that when hms Cumberland went in, she had to make an unscheduled stop in Crete to uplift some 'stores'. The stores included a full complement of camera crews and hacks to cover the evacuation. Good pr for the services gets us more into the public eye, gets us more of the budget (or less cuts) etc.

If this goes on like I think it will, the rebels will be knocking on the colnels door inside a few weeks, thanks to air power.

[Double Zero]

But....we do need to brag a bit so that trumps OPSEC does it?

Got it in one ! Sadly the Harrier PR was more opsec, so the wander-bomber, ( deliberate spelling ) as it had each 2 shouty occupants who later went on to positions of influence, thus won the battle of the procurement / keep argument whether it was any good or not...

In an age when bankers who should be lined up against a wall and shot ( thoroughly ) seem to win over common sense, why am I not surprised ?! :rolleyes:

[HalloweenJack]

may i interject with a question?

does the RAF need something like the italian `ECR` version for `day 1 SEAD` mission? maybe a conversion of exisiting and soon to be retired GR4`s?, seems to me like a good idea as the 2 are really quite close. but maybe im just in fantasy land

[BTBAM]

'Got it in one ! Sadly the Harrier PR was more opsec'

Hmmm, I seem to remember hearing lots of press about the Harrier when it was in Herrick.

What's wrong with a bit of PR? Especially PR which shows the RAF still coming up with the goods, despite the tonka-bashing, pro-harrier/carrier brigade's ramblings. Last I checked we're all on the same team.

[engineer(retard)]

Good job we've still got some cold war capabilities then :*

[just another jocky]

Some of you lot should re-read your posts; your toy-throwing inane, ill-informed ramblings are an embarassment. And several of you need to take a chill pill or 2. :rolleyes:

[high spirits]

Just another jockey,
Perhaps you should write to that dyed in the wool moron known as sharkey ward whose inane ramblings suggested that harrier gr9 plus carriers was the answer for the no-fly zone. As has been suggested, the material for public consumption is scrutinised prior to release and is released for a good reason, ie sap the enemy will to fight and thereby avoid more claret being spilt. The fact is that 'air' has made a major difference to this conflict, saved many lives in Benghazi, and is having a decisive impact. It just so happens that the tonka is at the forefront of it and is displaying it's ability to swing role very well.

[TEEEJ]

Tornado GR4 taking out rocket launchers. Note the fastest man in Libya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEIkG6WJ6nU

TJ

[AR1]

What is pretty amazing is that someone can be so close to a detonating weapon and still have the ability to run away from it.

[draken55]

"fact is that 'air' has made a major difference to this conflict, saved many lives in Benghazi, and is having a decisive impact. It just so happens that the tonka is at the forefront of it and is displaying it's ability to swing role very well"

Without the US Navy surface warships and submarines firing off significant numbers of TLACM's (our Navy added a few more to the total) initial implemenation of the NFZ would have been at greater risk of some Libyan response. We also made use of Tornado to fire off Storm Shadow.

We can destroy the Colonels armoured elements if they are a threat at much reduced risk. For the RAF the tonka must then be at the forefront, as it is all that we have that can fire Brimstone.

Our efforts and those of Canada, Norway etc, take the form of land based air. France is using land and carrier based air, the USAF and Navy land based air and the US Marines their carrier based Harrier's.

Don't think anyone doubted that air would make the difference but it took the deployment of more than just air assets to make sure that this is now so. Problem might then be what other assets will be needed to conclude this UN approved intervention if the fighting moves west around urban centres like Sirte, Tripoli etc were the use of air power alone will be harder.

[Igloowhite]

One of the most worrying things about the media footage coming out of the Libya fracas is the number of SA-7s which one sees in rebel hands. They have obviously captured very large numbers - where these will end-up..........

[MPN11]

@ Igloowhite ... I read something yesterday that suggested there is already leakage of Eastern Libya armament depot stocks to 'other places'. Not a comfortable scenario, but sadly that's what happens.

[500N]

MPN

I thought it was more specific than that and that AQ North Africa had
specifically jumped on the opportunity to grab some weapons including SA 7's.

.

[high spirits]

Draken,
If you read an earlier post of mine, I mentioned the TLAMs. Likewise its 'air' that has had the decisive impact whether it launches from a ship or land(we just happen to have stupidly chopped our own capability). The TLAMs destroyed the air defences, but it is air launched stuff that has directly halted the tanks and artiller and stopped the slaughter of benghazi. I just hope that all those tonka nay Sayers are enjoying eating their words.

[MPN11]

Thanks for jogging the very grey cells ... yes, that was it.

Which, drifting monstrously OT, could make life disagreeably stimulating for those helo crews addressing Somali piracy.


OK, back to Libya NFZ.

[500N]

MPN

"OK, back to Libya NFZ."

The thing is, I think the NFZ, supporting the "rebels" and AQ are all interwoven. The talk about "arming" the rebels has me worried.

[dead_pan]

could make life disagreeably stimulating for those helo crews addressing Somali piracy


I think this would be the last thing they would be used for. There's far more headline-generating civilian targets flying around the Med.

The talk in the paper today was provided limited man-portable anti-armour weaponry. The air threat has been dealt with so we won't be issuing them any MANPADs etc. Still, I am worried about the true colours of some of the rebels we are backing.

[high spirits]

Neither am I comfy with the rebels, but the colnel has been living on borrowed time since Yvonne fletcher and Lockerbie. If it precipitates airliners having to retro fit a rudimentry DAS then so be it.

[MPN11]

The suggestion was surely that MANPADS had been lifted from arms depots, not that they were being 'issued' the the 'rebels'.

It's a monstrously foggy scenario ... I have no doubt the outcomes will manifest in the next few years.

As to airline DAS fits ... hmmm. :ooh:

[Igloowhite]

DAS on airliners has been looked-at many times, both in Europe and in the US (and of course, in Israel - who actually do it).

Here and in the US the airlines have been unwilling to pass on the enormous cost to pax and Governments have been unwilling to force the issue for fear of the knock-on implications of publicly acknowledging the reality of the threat.

If one of the unintended consequences of the Libya push is a major new injection of MANPADS (did the mad Col. G have any Gimlets? ) into the hands of 57 varieties of not such nice chaps, then major rethink required.

[Easy Street]

Draken55,

Don't think anyone doubted that air would make the differenceThere are plenty of doubters out there - including many of our Army brethren who stick doggedly to the notion that only boots on the ground, or the threat thereof, can have an effect on ground and territory. The only recent example where air power, unsupported by the threat of ground intervention, can be said to have achieved its aim was the northern Iraq no-fly zone from 1991-2003, which allowed the Kurds to achieve a degree of self-rule under Saddam. The southern no-fly zone didn't save the Marsh Arabs, and the air action over Kosovo was backed up with the threat of ground intervention.

The Libya conflict could finally provide a definitive example of an air-only* campaign. Indeed Gen Dannatt has been backtracking on his comments, made whilst CGS, about RAF fast jets; understandably the 2 surviving FJ fleets are enjoying the attention and perhaps allowing themselves a quiet "I told you so". Meanwhile, the politicians are appreciating the ability to make a military intervention without the accompanying daily headlines of Pte Bloggs getting blown up; a low-political-capital option indeed, but with a price tag to compensate: hopefully PR11 will account for that!

* The purist would define sub-launched TLAM and carrier-based aircraft as "air power" - strictly, "sea-based air power".

[Uncle Ginsters]

The Libya conflict could finally provide a definitive example of an air-only* campaign.

Perhaps in the conventional sense, but the purist might argue (playing Devil's Advocate here:E) that there already are boots on the ground...albeit in the form of a rag-tag army of ill-equipped and trained rebels. Nonetheless, what air is doing here could definitely be described as support to grounded forces in some guise or other.

The overwhelming use of air power in Libya would appear to be demonstrating the size off the odds facing ground forces that can be overcome, and the limited ability required of those ground troops to hold (and even take) the ground when air has done its job so well.

[FB11]

Easy Street,

It's not an air only campaign.

The rebels are doing the fighting against the regime forces on the ground. Air is giving them the advantage so that they can can fight the regime troops on a more level playing field.

Plinking at a few tanks would do little if the rebels didn't follow it up with decisive land action. Just because they're not our soldiers doesn't mean they aren't land forces using their supporting forces (NATO air and maritime strike) to effect their regains of territory lost.

I don't think anyone in their right mind could say that air isn't making a difference in this foreign adventure we've embarked upon but neither is it the airman's utopia of an 'air only campaign'

[500N]

"Plinking at a few tanks would do little if the rebels didn't follow it up with decisive land action."

And that was, until a few days ago, the biggest problem although they now seem to be getting it together.
.

[TEEEJ]

SA-24 Grinch (Igla-S) were photographed in Libyan Army hands at the start of the conflict.

http://img836.imageshack.us/img836/2964/800xn.jpg

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3470/800xj.jpg

TJ

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Doesn't look much like the rebels are getting it together; more like the eastern portion of Gaddafi's lot have fallen apart.

Muppets with AKs on pick-ups + western air power = victory.:ok:

The Girl Guides are better organised than this lot (either side).

Not FLWs I hope. Momentum could be everything here, especially if we are able to flatten any serious armour making a stand further west. Sadly for the civilians, but Gaddafi's forces are giving us every reason to take out his forces at present.

[safetypee]

Re #865, the video appears to show at least four incoming trails – ground to air, which originate from different (vehicle) locations.
SA-24 Grinch ?

[Easy Street]

FB11, Uncle G,

I am well aware that there are boots on the ground - let me quote my own post from a couple of days ago:


None of our boots is the critical thing here. Some boots will be needed - hopefully Libyans themselves; if not, then hopefully some other regional powers can be persuaded to step in.

The 'airmans utopia' you mention is exactly this - we intervene using nothing but air power (except perhaps a supporting role by SF) and achieve our aims without the need for a politically-expensive UK ground intervention.

[500N]

" Re #865, the video appears to show at least four incoming trails – ground to air, which originate from different (vehicle) locations.
SA-24 Grinch ?"


Very Interesting and clearly visible.

.

[Caspian237]

The recent gains by the Anti Gaddafi rebels mean that the opposition now controls much of the country's oil infrastructure. If there is a stalemate now then one might question the long term viability of Gaddafi's regime.

If, as the media would have us believe, that Gaddafi is heavily reliant on foreign mercenaries then it does not bode well for him that his enemies hold the economic cards. If this situation occurs then the international community will need to ensure that the roles of abuser and abused are not reversed. We can only hope that the situation is resolved one way or the other before too long.

[FB11]

Easy Street,

Do you work in media or PR?

So it's not an air only campaign then unless we are now a 'UK air for hire' to other armies around the globe.

Whilst it might not matter on the front of RAF News to make 2+2 = 5 it is quite an important distinction.

Air and maritime forces enable ground forces, UK/coalition/indigenous, to achieve their objective.

[high spirits]

The rebels don't appear to have had to fight for any of the towns they have taken in the last 48 hours, they have simply driven in and claimed victory. That would suggest that the utopia of air only is fairly close to the truth....now tripoli will be a different matter and one in which air will find it difficult to get involved in especially with rules of engagement, human shields and the UN mandate.

[Tourist]

Those "ground to air" trails I took to be artillery rockets, not SAMs

[dead_pan]

Those "ground to air" trails I took to be artillery rockets, not SAMs


I concur - the vehicle looks like one of those low-tech "MRLS" trucks.

This is going to get very interesting now that the rebels have reached Sirte. There are lots of loyalist pro-Gaddafi civilians in this city. I hope the western news media are on hand to make sure the rebels don't go from house to house themselves.

[outhouse]

Just reviewing the news and latest events, I guess that for the mission planers identification of viable ground targets is getting harder. Without on ground intelligence and the difficulty of identification of targets of choice and not hitting the rebel forces, the decision is placed more and more on the actual crews on the mission. Recon and the available high tech assets has advanced greatly over the years but maybe now as years ago, the final decision is still the chap who pressed the needed tit.

[Tashengurt]

Those "ground to air" trails I took to be artillery rockets, not SAMs


At the risk of seeming a complete buffoon, these projectiles didn't seem to have much 'oomph' about them or perturb the Tonka crew overly. Could they even have been something along the lines of RPGs?

[draken55]

FYI. Rafale M armed with the SCALP Cruise Missile being launched from the carrier FNS Charles de Gaulle "somewhere" in the Med.
http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/draken55/missions-du-25-mars-2011-1.jpg

[draken55]

And here is one of the French Air Force Rafale B twin seater being armed with SCALP for the same mission.

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j420/draken55/missions-du-25-mars-2011-3.jpg

[TEEEJ]

Safetypee wrote

Re #865, the video appears to show at least four incoming trails – ground to air, which originate from different (vehicle) locations. SA-24 Grinch ?

The video at #865 shows firing from tubed artillery (rocket launchers) mounted on vehicles. The longer version of the tape shown on the news shows them ripple firing.

http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/3500/800xns.jpg

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/840/800xd.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCm3A1vrmXQ

Smaller rocket launchers can also be vehicle mounted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01841/rockets_1841985c.jpg

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eqS8QW4Ixf77/610x.jpg

The United Arab Emirates have now deployed F-16s and Mirage 2000s.

http://www.f-16.net/news_article4321.html

TJ

[draken55]

Re the rocket launchers, interesting to see the TV reports of re-loads being in boxes marked as bulldozer parts from North Korea:suspect:

[MPN11]

Re the rocket launchers, interesting to see the TV reports of re-loads being in boxes marked as bulldozer parts from North Korea

Eeeek ... the NKs are equipping the 'rebels'?

Does that mean they don't actually support the concept of a completely un-democratic regime that oppresses its own people? Or are they trying to join NATO?

This is one BIG Pandora's Box.

[draken55]

Stand easy. The video was of Government positions after coalition air attack.

There have been many stories of North Korea exporting arms to the Congo and other African States in breach of the UN embargo. The same method of disguise was used.

The Colonel may have been in receipt of arms from North Korea directly or through arms dealers, even a friendly neighbour!

Why he did not ensure a paint over of these boxes is also of interest.:suspect:

[TEEEJ]

The MoD has announced that last night RAF Marham based Tornado GR4s, using Storm Shadow, targeted munition bunkers in Sabha, Central Libya.

Video: Libyan state TV footage of Nato strikes on Sabha - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8411380/Libyan-state-TV-footage-of-Nato-strikes-on-Sabha.html)

The Ministry of Defence confirmed that Tornado GR4 jets flew from RAF Marham in Norfolk to destroy bunkers in the central Libya town.

The planes used Storm Shadow missiles to blow up the installations which were thought to contain ammunition being used to attack the rebel held city of Misurata.

MOD spokesman Major General John Lorimer said: ”Initial reports suggest that the bunkers have been destroyed and that the Libyan government has been denied ammunition it uses to threaten civilians in the north of the country.”

TJ

[dead_pan]

Does that mean they don't actually support the concept of a completely un-democratic regime that oppresses its own people?


They're just following the Arab League's lead on this, also those other noteworthy oppressive authoritarian regimes (Russia, China) which initially supported the action in their own way.

North Korea supplying the rebels - what could possibly go wrong?

[TEEEJ]

Vice Admiral Bill Gortney reveals that A-10 and AC-130s flew missions over Libya during the weekend.

The Pentagon Channel (http://www.pentagonchannel.mil/pcindex.aspx?category=Operation+Odyssey+Dawn)

TJ

[0497]

From the March 28 briefing
Transcript: DOD News Briefing with Vice Adm. Gortney (http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4803)

Q: Do you have any specifics on the number of ordnance dropped?

ADM. GORTNEY: .... We're up to 199 TLAMs, seven from coalition, and a little over 600 precision-guided munitions, 455 from the U.S., 147 from the coalition.

[xerox25]

Today,the Rafale is best airplane in operation over Lybia !

[Load Toad]

Today Rafale is the only airplane in operation over Lybia !

[500N]

Today, yesterday, tomorrow and the next day or at anytime in the future will any planes
including Rafale's be in operation over Lybia !

However, yesterday the coalition planes were in operation over Libya
and at a guess the planes will be again in the future !

[Wiley]

North Korea supplying the rebels? If the rebels are paying for their bullets, a very profitable enterprise for Master Kim, I'd be guessing.

Speaking of ammunition usage, I'd love to know the proportion of ammunitiion used in combat by the rebels versus that fired into the air whenever a TV camera crew looms into view.

[500N]

I think as someone said in a previous post, Kim supplied the Colonel
and the rebels have grabbed the ammo from one of the dumps.

I couldn't see a ship from North Korea getting through the blockade.

[xerox25]

What I mean is, the best fighter operating over Lybia is the RAFALE.;)

[500N]

"What I mean is, the best fighter operating over Lybia is the RAFALE.;)"


Xerox
I know what you were saying, I was having a joke that no place called Lybia exists. It is spelt Libya :O.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Xerox25 - Have you a pack of 'Libya Edition' Top Trumps then?

'Best'. A difficult word to quantify when the majority of the 'iffy' opposition assets were laid to waste via the medium of TLAM.

It's also difficult to quantify when a large amount of the targeting information the Rafales are using comes from other sources, including the comparatively long in tooth Tornado.

[500N]

The "rebels" seem to be getting a bit more organized as opposed to just charging in. I see in one report that the rebels told other rebels who only had AK's et al to go back and only heavy weapons at the front of the advance.

That's at least a start of some sort of organisation !:O

.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

500N

Given that the rebel leader himself is an AQ sympathiser who has fought the Coalition in AFG, and that men he has recruited have also fought the Coalition in AFG, it's no surprise that the organisation is getting better!

Thank God that we're now all on the same side and can fight shoulder to shoulder with AQ against a common enemy! Great move by the French, Brit and American governments :ugh:

Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html)

[0497]

Given that the rebel leader himself is an AQ sympathiser who has fought the Coalition in AFG, and that men he has recruited have also fought the Coalition in AFG, it's no surprise that the organisation is getting better!



It long been acknowledged that eastern Libya supplied the majority of foreign fighters in Iraq.

[500N]

"Great move by the French, Brit and American governments :ugh:"


I hope they don't arm or supply arms to them as some have been saying they might do. I would prefer pushing the envelope of the UN mandate
than supplying arms, not sure how they would go about it (boots on ground not being a good idea).

[Ewan Whosearmy]

It long been acknowledged that eastern Libya supplied the majority of foreign fighters in Iraq.

Source? Acknowledged by whom?

I cannot find any independent figures that support your assertion.

Over a period of around four years (2005 - 2009), various public domain analyses put Libya at supplying between 9% and 18% of fighters in Iraq. By contrast, the figures for Saudi range from about 45% to 55%.

On this basis, Libya (Eastern or otherwise) did not at any point supply 'the majority of foreign fighters in Iraq'.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Ewan - Are you saying sources within the glourious Kingdom of Saudi Arabia were providing the lion's share of weapons to insurgents in Iraq?

Surely we should have pushed for some sort of mandate via the UN in order to deal with them then.................?

[MPN11]

Ah, Stacker, there lies the everlasting conundrum of Global Politics and National Interests! ;)

[dead_pan]

Source? Acknowledged by whom?

From the CNN web-site:


At the peak of the Iraqi insurgency, more jihadists per capita traveled to join al Qaeda in Iraq from Libya than from any other country. And according to al Qaeda records seized by the U.S. Army in Iraq, in 2006-07 more volunteers -- a total of 53 -- travelled to Iraq from Derna than any other city in the Arab world. And in the 1990s, Benotman's group had tried to establish a safe haven in Derna, eventually being bombed into submission by the Libyan air force.


It does seem odd that our leaders are only now making any serious efforts to find out who the rebels are and what they are after.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

From the CNN web-site:



"More per capita" and "more from one city than any other" does not mean the same as "the majority of foreign fighters came from Libya".

However, I do accept the implication of this quote.

It does seem odd that our leaders are only now making any serious efforts to find out who the rebels are and what they are after

Agreed.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Ewan - Are you saying sources within the glourious Kingdom of Saudi Arabia were providing the lion's share of weapons to insurgents in Iraq?

Surely we should have pushed for some sort of mandate via the UN in order to deal with them then.................?

HS

Not sure about weapons, but people, certainly.

Frankly, the double standards that exist in the interests of political and economic expediency are staggering.

I just don't know how politicians do it. While I can in a way understand why they don't really have much flexibility to do things differently, I do have a real problem with our government taking us into yet another conflict when we haven't the money, resources or even the moral high ground from/with which to do it.

[Lonewolf_50]

AC-130s
Curioser and curioser, said Alice ...
For Ewan:

I just don't know how politicians do it.

That might explain why you are a pilot and they are politicians. :}

I just read President Obama's speech, and given that he's been pushed to explain what he's doing, he did a good enough job of explaining the why. Not scintillating, but good enough.

I heard a bunch of pundits attempting to describe the Obama Doctrine:

"When I am left with having to act due to the pressure of politics and events, I'll do something."

That so far is the Obama doctrine ... see Afghanistan Surge, the changing pact of Iraq drawdown ... this latest fun and games in Libya ... it appears to be the doctrine of political expedience.

So be it, he's a pol, and in the West it's the Pols who decide where they want the armed aircraft, armed troops, and armed ships to go and blow things up.

With that thought in mind, isn't it antithetical to a pilots' forum to support something that is all about Not Flying? :E

Should we not be against a No Fly Zone by professional instinct? :E

[Thelma Viaduct]

Frankly, the double standards that exist in the interests of political and economic expediency are staggering.

I just don't know how politicians do it. While I can in a way understand why they don't really have much flexibility to do things differently, I do have a real problem with our government taking us into yet another conflict when we haven't the money, resources or even the moral high ground from/with which to do it.

The 'Great' British public are thick as pig p00p, that's how politicians get away with it. The media and armed forces are also in their pocket, that's why you never hear what's really going on. It used to be called propaganda, when really it's just lies.

[Lonewolf_50]

I thought that "propaganda" was the creative use of lies for a political purpose. No distinction, as I see it, between a lie and propaganda.

[dead_pan]

AC-130s


The pyschological impact of using this aircraft will be immense - maybe the coalition are seeing signs that Gaddafi's army is showing the strain and that one final, brutal application of force will result in its collapse?

Mind you, given the amount of triple-A weaponry on the ground it would have to work hard to stay out of trouble. That would be the mother-of-all gunfights...

[outhouse]

Propaganda could also (depending if you are receiving or delivering) be a distortion of the/a facts to benefit,justify or explain a series of events to enhance your own interests or objectives. Truth or lies is maybe not relevant, maybe it's the end result and how it is received and if it is successful.:ok:

[Wander00]

There was an old saying about "Better the devil you know...", but in this case it seems more like "Between a rock and a hard place"!

[outhouse]

Well 00, the world really has not changed much over the years, them you know are possibly UN predictable and can bite your arse, them you don't know you treat with more caution in case the do BYA. in short don't trust any one and prepare to be shafted. *:ok:

[Wander00]

Keep your friends close...and your enemies even closer!

[outhouse]

Very true, 00. But but do not leave an opening to be taken advantage off.
Any way slight thread drift creeping in so will bog out and look for more tactical advice and responce re the NFZ. :sad:

[xerox25]

@ 500N

:{ I messed it up with Syria, you right it is Libya :{:{:{:{:{:ok:

[TEEEJ]

US Navy P-3C, USAF A-10 and USS Barry Engage Libyan Vessels (http://www.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=59406)

From Joint Task Force Odyssey Dawn Public Affairs

USS MOUNT WHITNEY, At Sea (NNS) -- A U.S. Navy P-3C Orion maritime patrol aircraft, U.S. Air Force A-10 Thunderbolt attack aircraft and guided-missile destroyer USS Barry (DDG-52), engaged Libyan Coast Guard vessel Vittoria and two smaller crafts March 28.

The vessels were engaged after confirmed reports that Vittoria and accompanying crafts were firing indiscriminately at merchant vessels in the port of Misrata, Libya.

The P-3C fired at Vittoria with AGM-65F Maverick missiles, rendering the 12-meter patrol vessel ineffective and forcing it to be beached after multiple explosions were observed in the vicinity of the port.

Two smaller Libyan crafts were fired upon by the A-10 using its 30mm GAU-8/ Avenger cannon, destroying one and forcing the other to be abandoned.

TJ

[draken55]

Meanwhile in to-days Forces favourite:oh:

Rebels show terror 'flickers' | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3496547/Rebels-show-terror-flickers.html)

[El Grifo]

This perhaps is an early mention of that which exists in the back of the minds
of many.

The small, but tangibly present, elephantito in the room :uhoh:

[Lonewolf_50]

An elephantito named Dumbo, perhaps. :E

Trick is to stop the little bugger from flying ...

[El Grifo]

I think the "flying" bit is well and trully sorted.

It is the recipe of the final cake that is baked which concerns me.

[dead_pan]

Hezbollah too, eh? I'm not surprised, seeing as the UN resolution was co-sponsored by Lebanon.

[TEEEJ]

An amazing series of images from Libya. The munition caught in flight looks like a GBU-31 JDAM (Joint Direct Attack Munition) fitted with a BLU-109 penetrator warhead? That variant of JDAM has quite a distinct shape.

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/5548/x800.jpg

http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/8178/800xne.jpg

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6116/800xoe.jpg

http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/615/x800c.jpg

Boeing JDAM (http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app5/jdam.html#_Variants)

TJ

[NutLoose]

So we haven't ruled out, along with the USA, in arming the rebels (on the news this morning)..... ahh we can sell them Nimrods..... oops to late...... Perhaps some of the Jags in store..... Oops the wings FI is up on a lot of those.......... Harriers is it??

Shame we can't provide for our own armed forces fully with what is needed, but are happy to provide to others. :ugh:

[airborne_artist]

The RN's FacePPrune update today:

"Liverpool Joins Libyan Mission After Firing Her Main Weapon (http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/operations-and-support/surface-fleet/type-42-destroyers/hms-liverpool/news/liverpool_joins_liby.htm)"

sounds uncomfortable ;)

[draken55]

More uncomfortable is that once Liverpool relieves Cumberland, the latter can continue its delayed journey home to pay off:ugh:

[SilsoeSid]

Who will be training the rebels on any new weapons that we will be providing, bearing in mind western powers have said they will not have troops on the ground in Libya.


Ever noticed the amount of civil staff found in airbases, naval bases barracks and camps around the world, how can we say that we haven't killed any civilians ourselves during our UN mandated mission to protect civilian lives?

Why do we need an Army with all its technical kit?
All we need is a fleet of Toyotas with a few big guns attached, a handful of AKs and RPGs and Bobs your uncle. If untrained rebels can advance so well with just that kit being randomly fired into the air and a bit of air support, we can cutback on defence savings and hold out until our economy is better. :ok:

With embedded reporters alongside the rebels, we are seeing very little opposition and civilian casualties.
With embedded reporters alongside Gadaffi supporters, we are seeing very liitle civilian casualties.

Who was it that said that the bigger the lie, the easier it is for the people to belive it?

The first casualty of war is the truth and history will be written by the victor.
That has happened throughout time and will continue to happen.

[sitigeltfel]

We all know what happened to the weapons that were supplied to the "rebels" in Afghanistan, supposedly to help fight off the Soviet invasion.

[Lonewolf_50]

It appears that lack of air sorties has allowed the Colonel's very own troops to send the rebels packing from Ras Lanuf. Sirte is apparently no longer under threat.

The Hope/Crosby "Road to Tripoli" film has been, as of this writing, delayed. :cool:

[ACW599]

>An amazing series of images from Libya.<

Some rather intriguing antennas visible in this sequence of shots as well; Racal wideband VHF/UHF, Andrew microwave link, low-band Yagis, HF NVIS and suchlike. Wonder what the target is/was?

[Tourist]

I may have a slightly different definition of the word "intriguing", ACW599:)

[dead_pan]

Some rather intriguing antennas visible in this sequence of shots as well; Racal wideband VHF/UHF, Andrew microwave link, low-band Yagis, HF NVIS and suchlike


Thats definitely a TV aerial at the front. Freeview, by the looks of it.

[ACW599]

>Thats definitely a TV aerial at the front. Freeview, by the looks of it.<

I dare say the digital switchover in Libya has been postponed for a while :)

[TEEEJ]

The Rebels making good use of Russian air to ground rockets pods (UB-16)

The A-Team springs to mind! :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2DfMeg-C-s

S-5 rocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-5_rocket)

TJ

[dead_pan]

I look forward to seeing the test firing in the next installment. I hope they remember to close the sun-roof before letting rip...

I'd have thought they would have been better pimping their ride by welding a couple of stub wings on the doors of the pick-up for mounting the pods.

[500N]

"I'd have thought they would have been better pimping their ride by welding a couple of stub wings on the doors of the pick-up for mounting the pods"

That would make it one directional which means driving at the enemy (and therefore longer to get out of range) as opposed to a 360 degree system they have which means attacking from any direction.

.

[dead_pan]

Yes but just think how cool it would look.

[500N]

"Yes but just think how cool it would look."


Yes, agree, but cool doesn't equate to winning or achieving the mission.

.

[SilsoeSid]

BBC News - Libya: Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa 'defects to UK' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12915959)

Not another Rudolph Hess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_Hess) situation going on is there?
I guess we are a bit more propaganda savvy these days and will milk this for everything we can.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Yes, agree, but cool doesn't equate to winning or achieving the mission.

Bollocks !!!

[Caspian237]

I've just been watching some video reports on the BBC news website showing an RAF man being a crew member of a twin seat French jet, a mirage I think. It implied that the jet had been on sortie over Libya and had fired weapons. Is this routine? Does the French airforce need English speakers to be able to communicate with people on the ground or is this some sort of arrangement that existed prior to the Libyan crisis?

Maybe the RAF in theatre with their 14 planes have too many crew while the French airforce with their 100 or so planes have too few. :eek:

[TEEEJ]

Caspian237,

Exchange tours in combat are nothing new. Back in 1999 the then Squadron Leader Alistair Monkman was flying F-117s in combat over Yugoslavia.

TJ

[TEEEJ]

Belgian F-16s in action over Libya. Destruction of Fitter and Hardened Aircraft Shelter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltV-PjvWZYA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv6xgB7Xz7M

TJ

[Caspian237]

Thanks for the update TEEEJ. That is interesting. So is this a NATO innovation designed to bring about better cooperation and understanding between the militaries of partner nations? I guess this instance could be a fruit of the recent defence talks between the French and British Governments.

[outhouse]

well viewing developments over the last two days a slight change in the approach to the air missions seem to stand out since NATO took command. my contacts indicate a reduction in the air attacks on government assets on the advance line, well now the retiring line. A general reduction of support helping the advance of the irregulars in opposition.
My comments a few days ago re the the commitment of NATO and the difficulty of effective actions when ruled by committee seem validated.*
The withdrawal of the support as shown in the previous few days and as I look at the news showing a strike on air fields really is not what is needed.*
Looks like a back off and political in fighting at the expense of mission effectiveness.
:ugh:

[Igloowhite]

The time is rapidly approaching when we need to end this thing as quickly and as cleanly as possible. Continued dancing on the head of a pin named Resolution 1973 over whether we can or cannot target Gaddafi or whether we can or cannot arm the rebels serves only to increase the chances of becoming stuck in a quagmire from which we will be unable easily to escape. The most important risk in all this is that, when the inevitable time comes, we will have neither the appetite, ability nor political resolve to deal with the one that really matters – Iran. Libya is a side-show compared with preventing the mad mullahs in Tehran from getting a deliverable nuclear capability. When the Iran volcano erupts again, as it surely will, the stakes will be so high that, no matter how cynical, exhausted, over-committed and broke we may be, it will be one match where we can’t afford to stay on the bench.

[outhouse]

Just to come back. The support given up to yesterday by the coalition air strikes gave the irregular forces a chance to advance and gain advantage. It was clear that the air strikes were the major factor that allowed this advance. Withdraw this advantage and basically the advance was stuffed. Has the approach changed since NATO took responsibility answer YES. As usual involve NATO and the expected committee factor and then any chance of a swift conclusion is again stuffed.*
Having myself been involved in a enterprise under NATO when politically delicate, indecision and a inability to do the needful ended in failure. Hence my rather biased comments.

[TEEEJ]

RAF Sentinel Monitoring Libya

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E_5Vr-D5uus

TJ

[outhouse]

Great stuff and well done to the girls and boys involved. However back to the commitment to hit and kill targets and the clearance to do so. Sorry presently do not see that commitment and see indecision.:ugh:

[dead_pan]

My theory is that the lull in missions was because the coalition began fretting over what would happen if the rebels attempted to enter and take Sirte. As a consequence we have cut them loose over the past two days.

From what I can ascertain the fighting appears to be taking place up and down the narrow corridor of the coastal highway. Gaddafi's forces seem well able to counter this - they know there's no danger the rebels will attempt to flank them, given their lack of training and equipment.

[TEEEJ]

Caspian237,

No problem. Here are some image links of the RAF WSO on exchange. The aircraft is a Mirage 2000

RAF WSO on exchange with the French Air Force.

Links to images.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2mfjb6r.jpg

http://i55.tinypic.com/b8l6px.jpg

French technician checking a Mirage 2000.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/5143/x800z.jpg

TJ

[biscuit74]

"Why do we need an Army with all its technical kit?
All we need is a fleet of Toyotas with a few big guns attached, a handful of AKs and RPGs and Bobs your uncle. If untrained rebels can advance so well with just that kit being randomly fired into the air and a bit of air support, we can cutback on defence savings and hold out until our economy is better. :ok:"


"It appears that lack of air sorties has allowed the Colonel's very own troops to send the rebels packing from Ras Lanuf. Sirte is apparently no longer under threat.

The Hope/Crosby "Road to Tripoli" film has been, as of this writing, delayed. :cool: "

I guess these two post (extracts) were ironic.

To anyone remembering some military history this is all looking reminiscent of the 'Benghazi Handicap races' of WW2. Ground gained doesn't matter much in territory like this - it's the 'army in being' that counts, and the length of the vulnerable supply line. Hmm. Hooks around coastal strip strongpoints anyone? Come back the LRDG - or of course their successors.....

[dead_pan]

Why do we need an Army with all its technical kit


I did think that a couple of days back when I drove past Dalton Barracks, sorry RAF Abingdon. The number of vehicles parked up on the apron doing absolutely nothing is staggering, particularly given the pressures on other elements of the armed forces. I wonder what particular eventuality they were envisaged for, and whether they will ever be used in anger?

[Army Mover]

I wonder what particular eventuality they were envisaged for, and whether they will ever be used in anger?

Armoured Division re-supply; probably not.

[0497]

Yep, Libya is going to be partitioned.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/01/world/africa/01civilians.html?_r=1&hp]

NATO Warns Rebels Against Attacking Civilians
....

The increasing murkiness of the battlefield, as the freewheeling rebels advance and retreat and as fighters from both sides mingle among civilians, has prompted NATO members to issue new “rules of engagement” spelling out when the coalition may attack units on the ground in the name of protecting civilians.

.....

The traditional laws of war distinguish between combatants, who may be lawfully attacked, and civilians, who generally must be protected. Civilians who pick up weapons and join in fighting can be lawfully attacked as long as they are directly participating in hostilities.

But the laws of war are vague about how to categorize internal rebels, rather than external enemies. And the recognized government of a country — even an internationally despised one like the Qaddafi government — is generally seen to have a right to use force to put down an armed insurrection, said David Glazier, a professor of national security law at Loyola Law School in Los Angeles.

[MTOW]

With Europe running the show, this is looking more and more like a repeat of the Somali pirates fiasco.

We'll go to war... but not of it will hurt someone.

We'll support the rebels... but not if that might cause casualties to the other side.

Ohmigod! Some of the rebels aren't really nice people!!!! Quickly, withdraw support before unruly elements within the rebel ranks hurt civilians on the government side!

...and the people running Europe have only now come to the rather startling conclusion that, whichever side wins, there's going to be a flood of refugees seeking asylum? (Easy fix: partition the country so that no one wins and we can send any asylum seekers to whatever side they supported. [Yeah, right...])

We (the West) have become the laughing stock of the rest of the world.

[Load Toad]

So what do you suggest we do?
- Stand idly by, watch as there are civilian atrocities, do nothing.
- Invade the country & stay there for years fighting various insurgencies.
- Arm the 'rebels', train them, find out later that some arms were used in atrocities, some have gone 'missing'.

It's f' easy to criticise but absolutely no response that The West ever makes will please everybody, but we have an obligation, if we can help, to do so in the best way we possibly can. And that way will vary in every single case depending upon the local situation, the will of our governments, the political atmosphere at the time and our own public opinion.

I think, at the moment - we are doing the best we can.

[Andu]

Lord Toad, I choke over the point that if George Bush had done exactly what Barak Obama has done in Libya, there'd be tens of thousands of people out on the streets in western European (and US) cities protesting at his war mongering.

I have an even bigger problem with the way the West, ever since Korea, goes into such ventures half-arsed, placing self-imposed limitations on our armed forces that in the long run, cost far more lives (both to our forces and to the civilian population of the country involved) than a short, sharp, no holds barred action ever would.

I agree with what others have said before me, that supporting the Libyan rebels could really backfire on us, (forget 'could' - make that 'will'), because I don't believe we'll ever be thanked for it if they ever get the upper hand - and quite possibly, they'll turn out to be another Mujahadeen/Taliban a la Afghanistan, which could prove to be really interesting so close to western Europe. (Is there a modern day El Cid out there somewhere? We may well need him, and soon!)

If we're going to back the rebels, let's back them and destroy the Qaddafi regime - and more particularly, Qaddafi himself - and put a stop to all this bleeding heart rubbish about not harming anyone. Far fewer civilians will end up dead or injured in such a campaign than will certainly be killed or injured if this is allowed to go on for months or even years, as this softly softly European policy is almost guaranteeing.

[Load Toad]

This fear of the Muslim rising up to kick our arses goes back to 1914-18 at least (probably farther still but I haven't read further back yet). It's getting rather tiring as the supposed raging fire that spreads from Africa, M.East to Europe never has happened other than a very few terrorist atrocities which while tragic are small potatoes compared to what we've done to each other over the years.
George Bush V Barack Obama? Not much difference -n the first got us into two wars, one totally unnecessary and the other still going on and Obama et al have no idea when it'll finish - been going on longer than both world wars now. So I'm going to suggest - if we went into Libya that once again we'd end up staying there for years - now if people think it's worth it - vote on it and do it. If it isn't - don't.

[Sunk at Narvik]

Andu,

Thats an interesting opinion. Heres an old article entitled "give war a chance" that maybe of interest..

"Since the establishment of the United Nations, great powers have rarely let small wars burn themselves out. Bosnia and Kosovo are the latest examples of this meddling. Conflicts are interrupted by a steady stream of cease-fires and armistices that only postpone war-induced exhaustion and let belligerents rearm and regroup. Even worse are U.N. refugee-relief operations and NGOs, which keep resentful populations festering in camps and sometimes supply both sides in armed conflicts. This well-intentioned interference only intensifies and prolongs struggles in the long run. The unpleasant truth is that war does have one useful function: it brings peace. Let it."

Give War a Chance | Foreign Affairs (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/55210/edward-n-luttwak/give-war-a-chance)

[Madbob]

Lord Toad - I think what you are alluding to (in politically incorrect speak) is "The White Man's Burden". A throw-over of guilt from slavery and the legacy of Empire........

We're dammed if we do, and dammed if we don't. This leads to the desire to intervene everywhere to "right" the wrongs of earlier foreign policy mistakes. We feel it more as Brits but France, Belgium, Italy etc. still find it hard to leave their former colonial empire alone.

You only have to look at the multitude of ethnic populations resident in countries such as France, the Netherlands and Spain (not to mention the UK) to see what I mean. Not an easy problem to solve but neither we, nor our European neighbours, can provide a safe haven to the people displaced by internal disputes, civil wars and revolution - even in nations that border Europe.

If we feel that we can't ignore the injustices of the world around us, the only option is to try any help protect them in situ which UN resolution 1973 is all about.

IMHO, it's time for the UK to shed its historic legacy of Empire and interfere less on the world stage and not feel guilty any more about the past. Let the Arab world sort it own problems out for itself.

There's only one problem though - we still need their OIL.

MB

[Small Spinner]

For national interest, read stability. For stability read growth.

All the other excuses are minor in comparison. The west (mainly UK and US, with Italy, Germany and France (who have separate issues and reasoning), didn't get to be world trading powers, by letting vast parts of the world descend into anarchy.
Why would the Arab nations, intervene, when either way they still have a commodity the world needs, and if it all goes pear shaped, they can point to the imperial ambitions of the west.
Now if a Gulf blockade happens, I wonder how soon China would start to vote with the west???
What really bugs me are the bleeding heart liberals who applaud when the west is accused of intervening because of oil, when the stability and freedoms they take for granted, are often because of intervention by the west, however ill conceived at times.

[Rector16]

Surprise, surprise, BBC now reporting breaking news that 'civilians killed in NATO airstrikes'. Apparently some doctor says it happened so it must be true - thus we enter the traditional stage 3 of the Campaign

1. Start conflict because liberals decry antics of dictator
2. Media support 'Our Boys' in their heroic stand against badness in their gee whizz high tech kit (lasts approx 5-10 days)
3. Bad people claim that 'Our Boys' have killed the wrong people; media turn on 'Our Boys'; liberals decry 'interventionist' antics of Govt.

Who would have thought that Gaddafi would think to play a card like that? Who would have thought that our media would believe it????:ugh:

[TEEEJ]

MoD released footage of the results of Storm Shadow against a bunkered ammunition storage facility at Sabha, Central Libya. Other Coalition aircraft were also involved in the destruction of this complex.

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/127D5857-B40A-4033-A687-A9221F4AA988/0/Ammo_Depot_OVNo_Disclaimer.jpg

Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Military Operations | RAF and allies destroy Gaddafi ammunition bunkers (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/RafAndAlliesDestroyGaddafiAmmunitionBunkers.htm)

Google Map link to bunkered storage area in Libya.

sabha - Google Maps (http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=sabha&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Sabha,+Libya&ll=27.063444,14.455647&spn=0.024917,0.068665&t=h&z=15)

TJ

[500N]

Rector

Expected, but what's interesting is that only a few days ago the BBC and other Media outlets were reporting that the Colonel was moving bodies into places hit by the Coalition to claim civvy deaths.

So now they have moved on to believing this rubbish.

.

[Pontius Navigator]

So what do you suggest we do?
- Stand idly by, watch as there are civilian atrocities, do nothing.
- Invade the country & stay there for years fighting various insurgencies.
- Arm the 'rebels', train them, find out later that some arms were used in atrocities, some have gone 'missing'.

In the past the UN response is to police the GREEN LINE.

As mentioned above, plinking tanks gave the rebels the chance to advance, stop plinking them and they retreat.

The best solution would be the creation of a Green Zone with any combattants of either side prohibited.

The problem would be just where to establish the zone boundary and that it would create a defacto partition of the country much like the 19th Century boundaries.

[500N]

Pontius

I feel that that action will just prolong the whole mess even longer
and put the whole country into a never ending scenario.

The Allies have the capability to surgically remove armour and / or artillery even in towns and when added to political pressure, could achieve the outcome desired.

I see the biggest problem being organization of the rebels which sometimes seems to show a flicker but most times none at all.


On another note - now the Libyan Minister is in the UK, i really hope they pressure him to give some decent answers regarding the PC Fletcher and Lockerbie - and other things.

[Robert Cooper]

Latest from the Pentagon is that the U.S. is pulling its aircraft out and hoping everyone else can pick up the slack. :confused:

Bob C

[500N]

The US really does want to "sit this one out" as much as possible.

.

[Thelma Viaduct]

The US really does want to "sit this one out" as much as possible.Can't blame them, it was clearly evident before the 'NFZ' that any action had not been thought through at all.

Democracy barely works in this country, I seriously doubt many nations over that way have the gumption to make it work. It's funny watching all the allah akbahrs running about in their slip ons, leather jackets and jeans whilst blatting off their AKs, unless that's the new 'cool' CIA dress code.

[500N]

"Can't blame them, it was clearly evident before the 'NFZ' that any action had not been thought through at all."

I agree, can't blame them. The whole lot should have "thought it through"
a bit more beforehand and now they are in, go all in with air, after all, they have the ability.

The LA Times has a good article on the rebels.

"For many rebel fighters, the absence of competent military leadership and a tendency to flee at the first shot have contributed to sagging morale. Despite perfunctory V-for-victory signs and cries of "Allahu akbar!" (God is great), the eager volunteers acknowledge that they are in for a long, uphill fight."

[Thelma Viaduct]

Unless the Col. is assassinated, it's got stalemate written all over it, but it always did have.

I reckon the UK will soon follow the spams and leave the french with the problem. No doubt it will be sold to the 'great' British public as a resounding success, and the sun reading majority will lap it up.

[Pontius Navigator]

Pontius

I feel that that action will just prolong the whole mess even longer
and put the whole country into a never ending scenario.
.

Very true but do you expect that a ceasefire would be a ceasefire and that peace would prevail in the next milennium?

Even partition would have people on the wrong side of the line and require huge population shifts - a la Cyprus or elsewhere in the east Med.

[Andu]

and require huge population shiftsMany of them, from both sides, to Europe and other Western countries as asylum seekers.

[Pontius Navigator]

Andu, quite right. As I said before, everywhere we have intervened has seen a surge in immigrants from that country when few have come before.

How many Britains born in Yemen, Iraq, Afghanistan? How many will come from Libya?

[SASless]

Who was it that first decided to stick their nose into this thing to begin with? It could not have been Barry Boy....as he is not a leader of anything!

[MTOW]

NATO jets killed a number of friendlies after mistaking celebratory fire from a pickup-mounted anti-aircraft gun for hostile fire.

Standby for days of recrimination in the Western media and a bevy of lawyers arriving in Libya to oversee the multi million dollar compensation claims (followed, of course, by asylum for the injured and their extended families and the extended families of the dead).

Myself, I'd blame the CNN TV crew that must have passed the pickup truck just before the NATO attack. As everyone knows, it's mandatory for every Arab male to fire his anti-aircraft gun into the air and make the V sign whenever there's a TV crew within 500 metres.

[Lonewolf_50]

More idiots in the Journo corps ... from this article
US extends airstrike role in Libya - World news - Mideast/N. Africa - msnbc.com (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42401358/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa)

The U.S. is shifting the combat role to Britain, France and other NATO allies, but American air power is still in demand. Air Force AC-130 gunships and A-10 Thunderbolts and Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers will continue to attack Gadhafi's troops and other sites through Monday evening. These aircraft are among the most precise in the American arsenal.

What in the hell is this idiot talking about? That was a sentence of filler that demonstrated the journo's, and his editor's, utter ignorance.

The plane's aren't precise, the weapons' guidance systems are.

FWIW, the most "precise" airborne weapon on a jet is a GPS guided bomb. CEP is incredibly small Next most precise airborne weapon, IMO, is an IR guided missile or bomb, lased either from ground or air lasing capacity.

As to AC-130 ... no comment. Good platform, I do not believe it ought to be discussed in public.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The plane's aren't precise, the weapons' guidance systems are.

Absolutely... After all, the aircraft is guided by an officer with a map... :E

[dead_pan]

make the V sign whenever there's a TV crew within 500 metres


Yes - I assume they are doing it "ironically" when they make the V sign whilst running scared from Gaddafi's forces.

[Lonewolf_50]

I read their "V" sign as their belief that they are about to meet their 72 virgins ... :sad:

[Load Toad]

Yes - I assume they are doing it "ironically" when they make the V sign whilst running scared from Gaddafi's forces.

That's a tactical retreat that is.

[Lyneham Lad]

So, four more GR4's to be deployed, no apparent exit strategy, no end-game yet in sight.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton said: “It’s a heck of a lot to be doing at one time.” He suggested the RAF may be in action for six months, while Mr Cameron said: “It is not easy to know how the end game will work.”

How soon before SDSR Revision 1?

[Compressorstall]

More than anything, this should prove the ability of airpower to respond to a situation - please take note Gen Richards.

However, this does show how foreign policy is full of mission creep. Today we are going to give the rebels communications kit, presumably so they can call for Close Air Support and the Italians are going to arm them. However, what happens if they call our airpower to attack when innocent civilians are going to get hurt as they attack the legitimate government of Libya?

It just seems that we are using airpower to shape the battlespace and are doing more than attacking units engaged in attacking the innocent. Why did we attack the ammunition depot? Don't get me wrong, I am not some conscientious objector, but I just want to go into combat operations knowing what the end state is.

The clear message is that our airpower allows the selective strikes against a mobile enemy and it combines the FIND-FIX-STRIKE cycle that the Land Forces like to claim they can do. If the UK wants to remain a world player, then this underlines the need to invest in our air capability.

Listen in Mr Cameron, Dr Fox and Gen Richards.

[Clockwork Mouse]

The ability of airpower.

More than anything I suggest this proves that airpower alone cannot in fact be decisive. In the end boots on the ground are always the decisive factor. The size of the boots and whose feet are in them is another matter.

[500N]

Clockwork Mouse

Boots on the ground allow you to consolidate and hold gains
made by air power.


Interesting that NATO asking for even more planes now the US has dropped down a level. Some interesting comments in the paper from the Pollies.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Boots on the ground allow you to consolidate and hold gains
made by air power.I have to disagree... Show me any conflict, anywhere, that has been won purely on the back of "air power"!

Air power allows the "boots on the ground" the freedom of mobility, superior firepower and the ability to react quickly to a changing battlefield to supress and overcome the enemy. It does not win battles, hold positions or take ground.

I believe you have succumbed to the notion that the "sky gods" win wars. They don't... They allow the "ground grunts" to do it more easily - nothing more. :=

[500N]

AA

BTW, I am NOT air.

I think my comment was misunderstood. I agree with you but also diagree in some instances.

Air takes out the enemy, allowing the grunts to move forward, "consolidate and hold gains". Is removing the enemy, tanks, arty not a gain ?

Air Power "supress and overcome the enemy." - then the boots move in.
Same as an Arty barrage on the objective prior to crossing the start line.

"It does not win battles"
I think a few in Afghanistan would say that Apache's have won a few battles for the boots on the ground ? Would you agree ?

At the end of the day, you still need boots on the ground to win overall.