LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY

[fincastle84]

Firstly I'd like to wish them all a good campaign & a safe return to the UK. My thoughts are also with their families back home.

Secondly I fully support the PM's actions & applaud the way in which he has campaigned to get the Arab League & the UN to support a no fly zone. Such a pity that Parliament was nearly empty when he made such an important statement committing our armed forces to yet another conflict.

[Daysleeper]

Troops supporting Gadaffi then begin to overthrow the opposition with tanks and ground troops. What do we do then?


I rather suspect the reason for sending ISTAR and the Tornados is so that about 2 minutes later they won't have any tanks left. I guess the concept is reduce everyone to AK's and RPGs.

Safe home all.

[Wander00]

Three days late and a few dollars short!

[TOPBUNKER]

Any bets on the first 'blue on blue' by our Atlantic cousins?

[Madbob]

SS, the reason we can't say NO is because our gifted (and vain) political lords and masters get too carried away when standing on their soapboxes at the UN, G7, G8, G20 (or whatever) summits or wherever they happen to have an audience.

The fact that there is no corelation to the size of their mouths and the size of this country's armed forces is irrelevant! The only thing certain is the the Treasury won't be willing to finance the little extra task which will only put further strain on an already over-stretched defence budget.

I bet they will also expect the RAF to provide some jets for the royal wedding over London!

They'll never change (or learn from past mistakes) so we'd better get used to it!! :ugh::ugh:

MB

[Wander00]

Good luck and stay safe to all the boys and girls who are actually going to have to walk the talk. We salute you

[Frostchamber]

Re Malta etc, wouldn't somewhere like NAS Sigonella be a better bet (aside from being a bit, but not much, further away)?

[Chris Scott]

As a non-military pilot, forgive me for asking some stupid questions.

Given that Gaddafi's forces are expected to be advancing on Benghazi any time now, are there any aircraft quickly to hand that are capable of knocking out - say - a couple of dozen loosely-formated tanks?

Are any of the fast jets - such as Tornado GR4, Typhoon or Rafale - actually suited to the task? Presumably A10 and Apache would be useful, if available. Would Harrier have been any good?

[5 Forward 6 Back]

News now reporting that Libya have declared an immediate ceasefire, in accordance with the resolution.

Stop planning!

[Wander00]

Oh, yeah! And the moon is made of green cheese

[Wrathmonk]

Chris

Are any of the fast jets - such as Tornado GR4, Typhoon or Rafale - actually suited to the task

What do you think the GR4 has actually been doing, either in Iraq or Afg, continuously since 1992????:ugh:

Would Harrier have been any good

It would have been as good, albeit with different weapons systems, as the GR4. The big difference is we currently have 7 squadrons of GR4s, plus an OCU, and no squadrons of Harriers.

[Siggie]

Bl**dy Libyan surrender monkeys.

[Vizsla]

"Move Along" nothing to see here

[ozbiggles]

500. I agree with you and everyone else here the pollies don't have the gumption to see it through, they just enjoy the limelight.
Unlike anyone else here you said it was because he ADF didn't want to risk any hardware, when in truth there is already plenty of ADF hardware in harms way and has been since 1999.
You don't seem to like to mention the Hornet contribution in Iraq. One day you will see the gun camera footage and the reports.
Now, back to Libya. Lets hope the cease fire is a real one. But if that is the effect of the NFZ it doesn't get rid of the main man does it?
I would like to hear if anyone has heard any of the pollies say what they expect to achieve in the long term? and how?

TBM - I'll put my response here so as not to disturb the thread but where do I say I believe it will hold? If you want to have a go, do your best but that 'go' was, well not even worth a put down.

[TBM-Legend]

OZBIGGLES what are you smoking suggesting that a Ghadafi induced cease-fire is even real let alone will hold.

Why did we send Hornets to Diego Garcia when the war was thousands of miles away????

Krudd is all talk and it is embarrassing to say the least. The Canucks and others carry a stick as well as hard talk.. good on them.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Wrathmonk:
What do you think the GR4 has actually been doing, either in Iraq or Afg, continuously since 1992????

Well, I did warn you it was a stupid question! But what happens if the tanks are widely spaced-out?

[TEEEJ]

Chris Scott,

That is what the likes of Brimstone is designed for. Currently deployed on Tornado GR4.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeIdeZzuoEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeIdeZzuoEA

RAF Marham - IX (B) Squadron Operations Report - 10 January 2009 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafmarham/aboutus/9squadronopsreport10january2009.cfm)

Other weapons are available.

RAF - Short Range Air-to-Surface (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/shortrange.cfm)

TJ

[dead_pan]

My, that was a short war, wasn't it? The sly old fox has played Dave and Sarko like a fiddle.

[MReyn24050]

[QUOTE] [/News now reporting that Libya have declared an immediate ceasefire, in accordance with the resolution.

Stop planning!QUOTE]

Just a thought. What happens in the event of the rebels going on the attack? Do the aircraft operating under the UN mandate go in to support them?

[On_The_Top_Bunk]

Mr G may have surrendered but I guarantee the rebels won't. They will be on a mission to provoke them.

Do you think Mr G will stand back and let the rebels retake ground?

I Think NOT!

[Chris Scott]

Thanks for all that, TEEEJ.

Chris

[AR1]

We stop the deployment? - I don't think so. An immediate ceasefire doesn't stop the Libyans moving troops into built up areas to hamper any interdiction efforts.
No, we should carry on.

[Neptunus Rex]

Such a pity that Parliament was nearly empty when he made such an important statement committing our armed forces to yet another conflict.Fin, mon vieux, what else did you expect? It's a Friday, and the Pollies are even better than the Dark Blue for organising their long weekends.

[dead_pan]

What happens in the event of the rebels going on the attack?


Err, they will have breached the cease-fire hence Gaddafi's forces could justifiably defend themselves.

As for us supporting them, incredibly I believe the resolution isn't specific on that. It talks about stopping aggression and protecting civilians.

Let face it chaps, we've been well and truly kippered.

[SASless]

Brimstone effective?

Perhaps.....but how many can the RAF deliver in a single go? How many Tanks does Ghaf's forces have in the field? What is the shuttle time from Malta, Sigonella, Corsica?

[rab-k]

2-ship x 2 and as you Septics say, "you do the math"

Two-dozen smouldering hunks of steel would tend to concentrate the minds of those on the ground.

Besides which, carpet bombing a la Buff isn't terribly sporting old boy...

[Could be the last?]

Maybe an Op like this is exactly what is needed to highlight the shortfalls in the SDSR. It would be a brave man to admit that he has made a mistake!

[Low Flier]

Let face it chaps, we've been well and truly kippered.

Oh Buggah!

It was all going so well, too.

It was going as well as our occupation of Mespotamia from RAF Basrah.

It was going as well as our occupation of Basra until we had to withdraw to the former "RAF Basrah".

It was going as well as our occupation of the "British Sector" of Afghanistan in Helmand.

It was going as well as our air power's stunning success(es) in Northern Ireland for 30 years.

It was all going so well in our campaign to oust Gadaffi. Right up until some unsporting sod pointed out the the Empire has no clothes.

Could somebody please remind me: what is the exit plan for this one?

How do we get out of this ****?

[AR1]

Google is your friend. I certainly would suggest that any responses to such questions here reference material that is available in a search engine.
Peoples lives depend on it.

[Low Flier]

How do we get out of this ****?

.....

Google is your friend.

That is Willy Vague's strategy.

What should a proper government have as an exit stategy when it goes into an unendable war with its eyes open?

Willy Vague hasn't got a strategy. Has anybody else got one?

[AR1]

I have a strategy. - It's been raining so I've gone for Pandorama e/w at 9/1

[SASless]

Buff Bombing concentrates everyone's mind within sonic/seismic distance of the event! Load'em up with JDAM's and one x one works....as you Teabags say....Bob's your Uncle!

[AR1]

I also had Long Run to win... Cashback!

[david parry]

:ok: What a week!!!! Cheers Henry :D/ Cheltenham Festival next week the Runners from Knockeen (http://www.romft.co.uk/smf1/index.php?topic=15839.msg111786#msg111786) on: March 12, 2011, 10:58:26 am Tuesday 15th
Our first runner of the week will be Sizing Australia in the Glenfarclas Cross Country Chase on the Tuesday. He's in great form at home and we've been delighted with his preparation so far. He ran a fine race when third over the cross country course back in November and a similar run should hopefully see him go there with every chance.

Wednesday 16th
Sizing Europe will run in the Queen Mother Champion Chase on the Wednesday. Andrew Lynch came down to school him yesterday and
we were delighted with his jumping. He always seems to come into himself in the Spring and this drying ground will most definitely be to
his advantage. Last year's Arkle was just over a second shy of the Champion Chase so you'd like to think that a reproduction of that effort
would put him in there as a serious contender.

Thursday 17th
Loosen My Load is spot on ahead of his intended run in the Jewson. He also schooled yesterday under Andrew and touch wood his jumping to date has been foot perfect. We've always felt that he'd appreciate a step up in trip and this race looks to be ideal for him after some fine efforts over inadequate trips this term. We can't wait to get him back on some nice ground as we feel he's a much better horse on better ground.

The intention at this stage is to opt for the Pertemps Final with Queiros Bleu. This has been the plan for him since he finished second in a novice hurdle at the course back in October. We were delighted with his prep run at Naas a few weeks back and he's another one of ours who'll enjoy the predicted good ground. He won a novice hurdle on good ground at Killarney over 2m6f''s and we're hopeful the step up in trip will suit. He's in really good form at home and again I've been very happy with his preparation to date.

[SRENNAPS]

written by dead_pan

Quote:

What happens in the event of the rebels going on the attack?

Err, they will have breached the cease-fire hence Gaddafi's forces could justifiably defend themselves.



Somehow I don’t think that situation will ever be portrayed to us through our politicians or media. Mr G and his troops are the bad boys; and that’s the way it will be shown to us…..regardless of what is really happening on the ground.

Propaganda can work both ways, whether we want to admit it or not.

[NutLoose]

http://img.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/609/74762985-times-up.jpg

[SMT Member]

Danes are sending a squadron of F-16s for the show and a Herc-J for the logs.

Denmark to send squadron on Libya op - Politiken.dk (http://politiken.dk/newsinenglish/ECE1227910/denmark-to-send-squadron-on-libya-op/d)

[Low Flier]

Have the terrorists (or "freedom fighters", if you prefer) agreed to a cease-fire?

If the government abides by a cease-fire which the terrorists/freedom-fighters choose to ignore, then which side should we bomb in the civil war?

How long do we ignore the use of tanks and APCs by the Khalifa and Saud crime families against the people of Bahrain and Saudi Arabia?

[racedo]

Nauseating double standards at play again as Libya oil reserves are so closer to Europe.

Egypt already arming the Rebels and no doubt lots of "Retired" Senior Officers offered training opportunities to train these rebels up in equipment supplied by Saudi's ala Croatia getting German used equip in the 1990's with US trainers.

Did anybody remember the history of Afghanistan from 1975 to 9/11/2001...........I see history repeating itself.

[maxred]

My thoughts exactly - DEJA VU somewhat.

Did someone feed orack babama a coffee, he seemed to wake up rather to quickly:*

What range for our jets - Zimbabwe-oh silly they have no oil:\

[Easy Street]

Assuming the no-fly zone actually goes ahead, it will be good for the Typhoon force finally to shake off the abuse thrown its way in recent years by those with a less-than-full understanding of air power. And yet another deployment for Tornado GR gives it the perfect chance to justify its survival in SDSR - I can see important roles for Stormshadow, ALARM, RAPTOR and Dual Mode Brimstone, all unique to the TGRF. 'Normal' Brimstone could make an appearance as well, as highlighted earlier. All in all, a broad range of options, with far less political risk than sending in the troops...

To answer an earlier question, assuming 7nm / min transit, these are the times from the closest European operating locations to the main Libyan cities (very rough distances measured on Google Maps):

Sigonella - Tripoli 280nm = 40 mins
Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins
Sigonella or Luqa - Benghazi 330nm = 47 mins
Souda Bay - Benghazi 280nm = 40 mins

Given that Tornado used to take part in Op TELIC from Qatar, over 1 hour's flying time from Basra, you can see that land basing is perfectly feasible in this case. Operating in concert with Nimrod R1, it brings a decent SEAD capability to the table, as well as the overwatch and low-collateral precision attack currently being practised on Op HERRICK.

I hope some of the land-centric crowd (Max Hastings etc) get forced to eat their words regarding the utility of fast air. I would particularly enjoy seeing Dannatt, Richards et al commenting on the "wonderful RAF"!

Finally, how's PR11 going now?!?

[draken55]

Easy Street

That means it's also 27 minutes from Tripoli to Malta! What if the Colonel does as he is told and retains control over most of the Country. Do we then force regime change.

If we go in to degrade his AD capability when he might be at least perceived by some at the UN to have complied with their Resolution we may open up a whole new can of worms!

[maxred]

Not to get too heavy, but I walked from the puter, turned on BBC, Comic Relief Red Nose, images of poor kids starving and dying in Africa, whilst our 'leaders' spend another few billion on planning war with Libya:bored:

'Get off your knees human race':cool::cool:

We deserve better, much, much, better to lead us

[Justanopinion]

Slight but significant snag in the suggested use of Sigonella - the only aviation fuel available is F44, despite what the ERS says. Now guess which was the ONLY fast jet that used to be available in the UK stable, that could use F44, and indeed any aviation fuel - yep,the Harrier. I know i know, it's gone but it would have been useful eh?

Mmm - and while we are at it - the VC10 is no longer allowed to use Jet A - and guess which is the most used aviation fuel at civvy bases is -

Sooooo - planned use of NAS Sigonella for Typhoon or GR4 - delete.

[Piggies]

Hoop.

I spent 2 weeks on det with 617 at Sig

[Sgt.Slabber]

Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins
Sigonella or Luqa - Benghazi 330nm = 47 mins

Malta say, "No!", according to BBC R4 PM news at 6... (1800Z)

[Justanopinion]

Piggies

Hoop my arse - tried to use it recently and i am telling you they have only F44 - just ring and ask fella - your det cannot be that recent.

[Lord Spandex Masher]

and guess which is the most used aviation fuel at civvy bases is

Jet A1...........

[Justanopinion]

Jet fuel is a type of aviation fuel designed for use in aircraft powered by gas-turbine engines. It is clear to straw-colored in appearance. The most commonly used fuels for commercial aviation are Jet A and Jet A-1 which are produced to a standardized international specification. The only other jet fuel commonly used in civilian turbine-engine powered aviation is Jet B which is used for its enhanced cold-weather performance.

Jet A in the USA - JET A1 rest of the world - and i guess you know the only diff is the higher freezing point of Jet A.

[Piggies]

Fair cop. It was 14 years ago...;)

[Lord Spandex Masher]

Of course. There's no facetious smillie.

[draken55]

Malta

The Mediterranean island of Malta grants use of its air space to enforce a no-fly zone on Libya. Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi however says that Malta "will not be used as a military base for the enforcement of the no-fly zone."

[SRENNAPS]

Just been watching the news with respect to comments by Mr Cameron and the speech made by Barrack Oblimey in the States.

As a matter on interest how many countries in the League of Arab States, that will be part of the NFZ coalition, are democracies and how many are ruled by the will of the “free” people. How many of these countries are actually having their own difficulties with demonstrations and uprisings (admittedly on a much smaller scale).

I think most of us know the answer to these questions but, with this NFZ, could we be sending the wrong message to the people of Bahrain, Saudi and other countries. The message being if you are not in a democratic country, rise up against your leaders and we will come and support you.

Let’s stop beating about the bush and stop using democracy, when it suits us, as an excuse to get rid of the bad people of the world, especially when oil is involved. The hypocrisy of this policy has sent the wrong message around the world, which has in turn led to an increase in radical beliefs within the Muslim world and an increase in terrorism. (anybody read the book written by Peter Arnett)

Let’s just say it as it is……..”Libya is full of oil, Gaddafi is a bad bloke, we don’t like him and he has to go. It has nothing to do with democracy, but his ruling is a danger to world stability”. “Oh, and by the way if we like your ruling party or you don’t have oil then tough cr@p, we cannot and will not intervene in the internal problems of another country”.

With the kind of hypocrisy shown by our “free world leaders” we will never have a peaceful and stable world. On the contrary, it will only create more problems in an already pretty f%%ked up world.

The term “lessons learnt” don’t seem to exist in the politicians minds and history books certainly do not exist.

Finally (and I hope I don’t get run down by an unmarked black car for saying this) but has anybody noticed how Mr Cameron is enjoying that feeling of power now that he is on the world stage. And during his speech today about the NFZ, he was so desperate to say that it was his idea a few weeks ago.

Yet another PM that wants to be as great as somebody like Win C or Maggie T. Sorry mate, but like Tony B, you are nowhere near in their league of being a truly inspirational leader like they were.

[just another jocky]

Slight but significant snag in the suggested use of Sigonella - the only aviation fuel available is F44, despite what the ERS says. Now guess which was the ONLY fast jet that used to be available in the UK stable, that could use F44, and indeed any aviation fuel - yep,the Harrier. I know i know, it's gone but it would have been useful eh?

Mmm - and while we are at it - the VC10 is no longer allowed to use Jet A - and guess which is the most used aviation fuel at civvy bases is -

Sooooo - planned use of NAS Sigonella for Typhoon or GR4 - delete.

IIRC, the Tornado is cleared to refuel with F-34, F-35, F-40 and F-44. At least it used to be. I'll need to check the Aircrew Manual.

[Willard Whyte]

Jeezus h-c-rhist you people need to get a life

[SRENNAPS]

Willard Whyte

Jeezus h-c-rhist you people need to get a life

So what do you do, bury your head in the sand, pretend it’s not happening, and live your life, not appreciating all those in the forces about to embark on yet another operation to keep your nice little life safe and sound.

You are not making that statement to a bunch of people who just sit here randomly talking about world affairs, you are making that statement to many who have been involved or are likely to be involved in the very near future in a war.

I should imagine that your main worry in life is how much more the price of fuel will go up rather than how many of our lads and lasses might lose their lives.

[Justanopinion]

JAJ

I wish you could use F44/(JP5) - deploying you would be a bit easier. Your ILOC sent an updated list a few months ago and i can assure you it was not on it - i would be delighted if it now is and the list was wrong, that indeed would be excellent news. :ok:

[TEEEJ]

Good analysis of the Libyan SAM Network. Link at the bottom of following webpage.

The Libyan SAM Network (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/123462/an-evaluation-of-libya%E2%80%99s-air-defenses.html)

TJ

[blackhandgang17]

Also www.egpk.co.uk (http://www.egpk.co.uk) are reporting that 4 CF18s have landed at prestwick between 2100 and 2145 tonight.:D:D

blackhand out

[RetiredSHRigger]

TEEJ
I think the Libyan defence link was originaly posted by Doctor Who, or another time traveller as it is dated May 2011:confused:

[ShyTorque]

Anyone seen our "Middle East Peace Envoy" recently?

If he could be dropped from a great height onto Gadaffi it would solve two problems in one go.

:yuk:

[The Helpful Stacker]

[Dons ex-TSW CLA cap for a moment]

The majority of sites that state they only stock F44 are usually only partially right.

F44 is rarely received onto land-based facilities as such, rather it is more often than not supplied as F35 and then blended with the required FP raising and FSII chemicals on site to produce F44. This is purely an economic and ease of supply issue, F35 being far more widely available than any other type of turbine fuel.

As an aside to this I'd be fairly sure that Sig would have stocks of F35 alongside its stocks of of F44 as it is common to allow F35 to 'settle' before running it through a blending rig to ensure built up static can discharge.

All UK military a/c can operate on F35 although F34 is preferred and if this is what is required a blending rig and a a few 136k TFCs is all that would need to be set up. An easy job even in these cash and staff strapped times. We managed to operate Basrah AB and supply all UK F34 requirements in Iraq from such a setup.

[Justanopinion]

RAs an aside to this I'd be fairly sure that Sig would have stocks of F35 alongside its stocks of of F44 as it is common to allow F35 to 'settle' before running it through a blending rig to ensure built up static can discharge.

Be a sweetheart and let Sig ops on both the Italian and US Navy side know then would you - as when i asked 2 months ago if they had any other available fuel other than F44 the answer was 'no'....

[TBM-Legend]

Malta says no to assisting NFZ.:*

I say withdraw their George Cross and send them a bill for defending them in WW2...:=

[muppetofthenorth]

Anyone seen our "Middle East Peace Envoy" recently?

Anyone else noticed how Northern Africa isn't really the "Middle East"?

[ORAC]

Sky news showing footage of an aircraft shot down over Benghazi.

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2011/Mar/Week3/15955700.jpg

[just another jocky]

JAJ

I wish you could use F44/(JP5) - deploying you would be a bit easier. Your ILOC sent an updated list a few months ago and i can assure you it was not on it - i would be delighted if it now is and the list was wrong, that indeed would be excellent news. :ok:

I bow to your superior knowledge Sir! :ok:

I was pretty sure it used to be able to use F44. :confused:

[TEEEJ]

Video of the MiG-23 over Benghazi, 19th March.

BBC News - Fighter jet 'shot down' over Benghazi (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12794589)

TJ

[Mad_Mark]

So, how did that happen? No sign of the triple-A tracer we have been constantly seeing from the rebels recently.

I wonder if it is the first 'kill' to the coalition enforcing the UN resolution!

Why do I think that? Well, Benghazi is on the coast and is the main site for any action against the rebels, therefore it would be almost certain that coalition warships would be positioned off the coast there. Given the range of SAM systems on modern warships, especially SM2-ER equipped US ships, then even warships outside Libyan territorial waters would easily have both the range and radar horizon to see and engage an aircraft over the city at the altitude seen in the video. A SAM fired from 20+ miles away would be ballistic by that point, hence to obvious sign of tracer or missile motor plume. Reports from the BBC reporter in the city state that the aircraft was seen overhead for quite some time before going down - plenty of time for any Naval commander to seek clearance from above to engage.

My only concern with the above is that the aircraft went down over the city and I doubt the coalition would risk collateral damage to civilians on the ground in the city - well maybe the Americans wouldn't worry (or have thought) about that.

Just my thoughts - can't beat a bit of immediate speculation :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[diginagain]

Don't suppose there's even the remotest chance that you might consider mechanical failure, Mad_Mark?

[Mad_Mark]

Yes, I did think of that actually. But isn't SOP on Prune to come out with immediate speculation to the extremis when there is any aviation 'accident'??? :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[diginagain]

In that case, why didn't you go for alien intervention?

[rickastley]

Al jazeera reporting the Mig was in rebel hands

[Mad_Mark]

Because I didn't think about the aliens that are monitoring us from above - oh and I didn't see the beam from their laser/plasma weapon in the video :=

But, thinking about it, you could be right :eek:

MadMark!!! :mad:

[NutLoose]

Gadaffi must know that on Fridays most of Europes airforces are off for the weekend, no wonder he is up to his old tricks...

Fancy calling a no fly zone without the ability to implement it in full.....

[Zeflo27]

Does anyone know if the pilot managed to get out of that Mig?

[TEEEJ]

Conflicting reports, as already posted, of who was operating the MiG-23. Some Arab media have claims that the Libyan Interim Council have admitted that it was their MiG-23 shot down by Gadaffi forces. Some western journalists in Benghazi are also reporting the same.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/africa/libya-live-blog-march-19

In beeld: jet neergeschoten in Benghazi :: nrc.nl (http://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2011/03/19/in-beeld-straaljager-neergeschoten-in-benghazi/)

Looks like an attempt was made to eject? Probably a bit too low to be successful?

http://www.nrc.nl/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/straaljager3.jpg

TJ

[Stu666]

Looks like an attempt was made to eject? Probably a bit too low to be successful?


And perhaps mercifully so depending on who was flying it. Wouldn't like to come down in that neigbourhood, especially if I'd just bombed it.

[dead_pan]

I did wonder if it may have been one of the rebel's MiGs when I saw it. On the long-shot footage there's a large explosion immediately behind the a/c, which suggests a missile.

I don't think there's any chance the pilot made it - no sign of any chute deployment. BTW you can see the canopy at the top of the pic above.

[L J R]

...or it is the result of the use of a very old and unreliable fuse that let to the early detonation of the ordnance just released....or a flare used after its shelf life expiry date that burned earlier than planned...

[dead_pan]

Whatever. It was a big eff-off bang either way.

[egnxer]

First of all, a couple of apologies; firstly, sorry for starting a new thread but I didn't want to trample on an established one. Secondly, I'm neither a flyer nor military so forgive me for venturing into your bit of cyberspace but I would just like to extend my appreciation to the boys and girls who'll be heading over to that part of the world to do the job that yet again, the politicians and diplomats couldn't do. Never ever forget that the British people know your real worth, whatever the politicians and bean-counters try to do to you.
Thanks again and stay safe.

[NutLoose]

Poor guy, I do hope he got out....... got to be in a lose lose situation, you are flying an aircraft in Libyan colours over a city where everyone thinks you are on the other side and everyone is taking pot shots at you. The Libyian Army would at least one would think know what they had operating in the area, but the Rebels, often groups of civilians probably do not.

[AR1]

Too low for sucessful ejection? I've witnessed one lower than that!

[dead_pan]

The MiG and Sukhoi at Le Bourget comes to mind, but then they weren't hurtling groundwards at a rate of knots.

[TEEEJ]

AR1,

Too low and a high sink rate wouldn't help.

----------------------------------------

The rebels are not having a good time with their assets. They have also lost a MiG-21 near Benghazi.

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2627/800xt.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/840/800xd.jpg

TJ

[biscuit74]

Nasty. When did the MiG 21 crash?


Somehow all this discussion about how to enforce a No Fly Zone over Libya seems rather surreal, when on another topic on this forum a discussion goes on about the disbandment party for the last Tornado F3 Squadron, early next week. Wouldn't it make sense to hang on to that asset, even at this late stage?

It amazes me that no senior politician has yet had the sense or the humility, to stand up and say - "ooops, perhaps we got this Defence Review wrong."
OK - 'no plan survives first contact with reality', and the SDSR certainly is demonstrating that, but the lack of reflection amazes.

I do hope the Service Chiefs are doing the job for which they are highly paid, this time - making it abundantly clear to their political masters that we simply don't have the capability to be involved in all these overseas adventures any more, that there really is no credible stretch left. In fact they should be making this clear in public, I reckon. Their job is not to be popular with the politicos, it is to be effective in support of their troops.

Or will they all stand around admiring the Emperor's New Clothes, again, and crossing their fingers?

[me myself and fly]

And so it starts

BREAKING -- AFP: Rafale fighter jets now flying over Libya, military source confirms

[keesje]

Hopefully the French and Brits can hit them hard and fast.

Thank god the Tornado's weren't all replaced by Eurofighters and are still there is good numbers..

[BandAide]

Is Gadaffi himself a target here? Has he gone underground?

[Stratofreighter]

A Dutch correspondent saw the dead pilot being brought into a hospital, covered by his blood-stained parachute. According to him not a pretty sight...

Some rebels don't rule out this was a case of "blue on blue/friendly fire"... :ugh: :ouch:

[Could be the last?]

I think this is 'irony':

As Sarkozy and Cam came on Sky to tell the gathered press how they were going to save the world, on the UK's largest AC carrier in the Med, the Reds turned up......................

:ugh:

[The Helpful Stacker]

Be a sweetheart and let Sig ops on both the Italian and US Navy side know then would you - as when i asked 2 months ago if they had any other available fuel other than F44 the answer was 'no'....

Justanopinion - I'm sure you understand there is a difference between availibilty of certain fuel for 'one-off' transit stops and the availability of same said fuel if there were a requirement to mount sustained ops?

The cost of having to flush/fill/flush available tankers/hydrant fuel systems to cater for an occassional a/c passing through would most likely be the reason they state "only F44 available" but as I stated, it'd be very unusual for a land-based facility holding such stocks not to have F35 as this is the base product from which F44 is derived.

To return to the point I mentioned earlier, for operations in Iraq there were no large quanities of F34 available in theatre, which meant having to receive F35, adding AL48 on receipt and then forwarding stocks within theatre to cater for outlying sites as well as retaining sufficiant stocks to cater for Basrah AB elements as well as airbridge requirements. All this was done via a single blending rig, a relatvely small amount of EBFI pipework and an 10x136k litre TFC farm (2 for F35, 8 for F34), something that can be setup in very little time.

You seem to be comparing the issues you had on what, a transit through Sig, to what is possible/available in order to sustain longer term ops. The two aren't comparable.

Its not as glamourous as flying the fast, pointy things nor be considered taxing on the grey matter by our earth hugging chums in the techy trades as their work but the various aspects of logistics can make or break operations and there are a few of us out here who know what we are talking about and what is and isn't possible.

[Torque Tonight]

Poor bloke, whichever side he was on.

[Stratofreighter]

According to Scramble Messageboard • Information (http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?p=482680#p482680) six French C-135FRs are/were airborne this afternoon.

Yes, that's half the l'Armee de l'Air's tanker fleet! It will be interesting to see how this No Fly Zone can be enforced in the long(er) term...

[BandAide]

Having operated out of Istres le Tube I saw myself six or more French KC-135Rs operate on any given day. The proximity to theatre of Istres, and it's capacity and experience with US KC-135 augmentation would suggest a robust air refueling capability to sustain Libyan operations indefinitely.

Ask me and I'd be happy to come out of retirement and run it for you.

[Modern Elmo]

According to Scramble Messageboard • Information six French C-135FRs are/were airborne this afternoon.

So when is the French Air Force going to do anything kinetic?

The world waits for France to lead the way ...

[Justanopinion]

Thanks for the info ref fuel types - my point was that Sigonella has the wrong fuel type for GR4 or Typhoon to operate out of, right now.

Logistically i am sure that the right fuel type could be put in place eventually.

Thats the last word from me on the subject - i am boring myself now.

[pr00ne]

Modern Elmo,


You have just had your wish granted. Military vehicle engaged by French Air Force.

That kinetic enough for you?

[pr00ne]

ghostnav,

Why has the UK got involved? Maybe, just maybe, because it's the right thing to do?

Life in your world may not be "like that" but thankfully it is to some.

No other country is attacking their own civilian population like Gadaffi is. This sends out a very strong message to any others that might be thinking of it.

In your world, when you see an old lady being mugged or raped, do you walk on by saying "it's nothing to do with me?"

[Modern Elmo]

That kinetic enough for you?

Seriously, this Libyan business may be a useful image-changing event for French armed forces.

[phil9560]

Its an unfortunate truth that Western economies are enormously dependent upon oil.So, however unromantic it may be,military action to protect oil is justifiable.Grim but true.

[diginagain]

........may be a useful image-changing event for French armed forces.

Not entirely certain that there's been much wrong with their image to date.

[pr00ne]

ghostnav,

We would never have any kind of mandate from the world community to go into Zimbabwe. In the case of Libya there is overwhelming UN support (NO vetoes) the Arab League has called for a no fly zone and action to protect the Libyan people. This is different, it's a start. It just COULD be the start of a common end to every mad dictator who decides to kill his people. It could even be the beginning of the end for dictators.

[Charley]

Personally, I find myself leaning towards Pr00ne on this one.

After all, we are there to 'protect civilians'. Apparently, military vehicles are being 'targeted'. Does that mean all military vehicles, or just Gadaffi's? Will we also be protecting those civilians who remain loyal and supportive of Gadaffi?

I'm not so sure... this seems, to me, to be as much about Gadaffi-bashing as it does about noble gestures and being the 'right thing to do'.

Egypt are apparently going to be involved somehow. The same Egypt that has been funding/arming the rebels of late? And they'll be enforcing this NFZ with complete impartiality, I presume?

Forgive me if I'm not convinced about some of the overt motives given for this. Someone put it better on another thread; let's call a spade a spade, and admit we're doing this because we don't like Gadaffi or our oil supplies threatened, so we feel we need to get rid of him.

(That said, I will stand back and see how things pan out -- maybe it will be even and fair and impartial).

[HalloweenJack]

How about `wait and see` before once again judging? the mandate is to enforce a no fly zone and enforce a ceasefire - and if that means using british and french airpower to forceably seperate the 2 sides and to stop the open slaughter of men , women and children who only want to go about there lives peaceably.

or do you think thats not wanted?

[Torque Tonight]

Those with reasonable memories will not have Gaddafi's material support of the IRA, murder of Yvonne Fletcher, bombing of Pan Am 103 and lavish approval from Blair. For all these reasons and more we will be delighted to see this idious little lunatic flushed out. About time too.

[Charley]

TT,

Quite so. Not much to like about the man or his leadership. I doubt there'd be many tears among us if he fell.

However, we do have to respect that there is still a significant slice of his civilian population that want him and/or his offspring as their leader. One would hope these civilians are afforded just as much protection by the NFZ as the rebels. Reprisals and retribution happen; the Balkans was a fine example.

As Halloween Jack said, "forceably seperat[ing] the 2 sides and to stop the open slaughter of men , women and children who only want to go about there lives peaceably" should be the goal.

Let's just hope we don't somehow end up on another slippery slope of pushing the boundaries of the UN mandate.

Very best of luck to the boys and girls who will be involved in the ops - stay safe.

[RileyDove]

Problem with all this is the various flaws in the arguements. Certainly Libya supplied weapons to the IRA -however I well remember the last British soldier killed before the ceasefire was killed by a Barrett 50 calibre rifle sourced from the U.S and undoubtedly paid for by U.S subscription. There was serious money channelled into the troubles from the U.S so before we become moral about it we need to remember who else was involved.
As for no mandate to intervene in Zimbabwe but overwelming support for Libya -that is somewhat akin to picking who you help -surely if you have any humanity the people dying in Zimbabwe due to Mugabe and his party were of equal standing We cannot pick our fights on the basis of how popular our actions will be - i.e the invasion of IRAQ wasnt fully supported by the U.N but still happened - is oil a theme in all this!

[BandAide]

Riley,

It's important to make the distinction that IRA support from the US came from Irish Republican Americans, not from the US people or its government.

In the case of Zimbabwe, for Western governments to intervene into a black African nation's domestic affairs presents serious political problems related to racism, primarily, but also colonialism.

The presence of oil has two sides. Oil revenues enable threatening behavior alongside the acknowledged need of the developed world for energy. Despotic oil regimes have been largely left alone to shackle their populations so long as they don't cause disruption or threaten other nations.

Do you promote more international meddling in the affairs of autocratically ruled nations, their oil resources notwithstanding?

[SWBKCB]

BBC News - Libya: French plane fires on military vehicle (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12795971)

[glad rag]

Has bad boy Ghaddafi have any means of "reaching out" and touching those who take action against him?

:ugh:

[RileyDove]

BandAide -the funding came from whoever put money in the collection boxes !! To believe that it only came from Irish Republicans is somewhat simplistic - I have first hand knowledge of the depth of understanding in the U.S of the troubles and its shocking.
Western governments have been intervening in the affairs of African nations for decades -witness the arms trade and the sale of combat aircraft in Africa .

[BandAide]

That's true. In fact a quadrant of my own family is quite fond of Gerry Adams, and I've seen the collection jars in bars in Boston. I don't know exactly who put the dollars in the jars, but there they were.

But the US government never even winked at that, not even when Kennedy was president. IRA terrorism was never supported officially, or outside the Irish community. Don't worry yourself about that. I never had any sympathy for it either, for what it's worth.

The arms trade is trade. And the Cold War made strange bedfellows. But in the past two decades, Western interaction with Africa, I assert, has been more than benign, focused almost exlusively on aid, not on influence.

[Justanopinion]

Sigonella - Tripoli 280nm = 40 mins
Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins
Sigonella or Luqa - Benghazi 330nm = 47 mins
Souda Bay - Benghazi 280nm = 40 mins

Oh that's awkward, can't use any of those.

As for nobody using a carrier, apart from Charles De Gaulle on her way.

[60024]

The French have been quick out of the blocks, to give them their due, but then they are desperate to sell Rafale to the Arab world, so will be very keen to display its multi-role capabilities before the Typhoons turn up.

[60024]

A CNN reporter has just said that the British are sending Typhoon and Torpedo aircraft........:hmm:

[draken55]

FYI

CF-188 Hornets and CC-150 Polaris aircraft of the Canadian Armed Forces staged through Prestwick this afternoon.

[bakseetblatherer]

Well it is going to be bloody tricky for whoever goes to sort friend from foe, rebel from gov't. I hope that the UN forces are clever enough to tell any rebel a/c to stay on the ground! As to grounds forces, stand by for a lot of friendly fire IMO.

[Mike7777777]

Is Malta the key .... again?

[Phileas Fogg]

I can understand Malta not wanting to become involved in an armed conflict, first of all it's in prime position for a reprisal attack, it depends upon tourism and this would decimate it's summer season, and long after it is all over and all the militaries have gone home Malta would be left sitting there with little, if anything, to defend itself with!

[draken55]

Malta granted overflight rights but has declined to permit aircraft to fly on NFZ missions from it's facilities.

INDEPENDENT online (http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=122089)

[Finnpog]

I think that the reason that the French have been so quick out of the blocks, is that North Africa is 'their' empire and I imagine that they will be damned to play second fiddle to Perfidious Albion.

The have been "interested" (not officially involved) in Chad for some time if memory serves well.

I also would not dcry either their military or their government's record in providing interventions as it suits their national interest.
There might not be any alliance boots authorised, but I cannot believe that there are not Legionaires on a border somewhere or more than able to deploy from Corsica.

[side salad]

Air strikes have started, come back safe all involved. I have lost enough friends.

[Easy Street]

Sigonella - Tripoli 280nm = 40 mins
Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins
Sigonella or Luqa - Benghazi 330nm = 47 mins
Souda Bay - Benghazi 280nm = 40 mins

Oh that's awkward, can't use any of those.I beg to differ - Berlusconi has opened up his airfields and Danish F-16 have already arrived at Sigonella (link (http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/03/ap-buildup-for-libya-mounts-at-italian-bases-031911/)). Souda Bay looks to have been cleared for all missions except bombing (link (http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/8517773-greece-decides-its-military-participation-against-libya)); not a major snag since planned bombing missions can easily tank their way in from more distant airfields. With this in mind I would imagine that CAS aircraft would be best placed at Sig.

I would also presume that since the Greeks are to contribute 4 F-16s, they would be happy for Souda to be used for air-to-air armed aircraft, but we will see...

From Justanopinion's carping you would think he wants our efforts to deploy Typhoon and Tornado to fail!!

[Bevo]

ABC News reports (http://abcnews.go.com/International/libya-international-military-coalition-launch-assault-gadhafi-forces/story?id=13174246):

U.S. military officials have confirmed the first American tomahawk cruise missiles have been fired at targets inside Libya from ships in the Mediterranean Sea.The move is the first direct U.S. involvement in the international operation mobilizing to stop Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's attacks on opposition strongholds and enforce a U.N.-backed no-fly zone.

President Obama told members of Congress Saturday that he had not yet authorized the use of U.S. planes, but the military has a variety of resources stationed off the Libyan coast and at bases in nearby European countries prepared to support the effort.

[SRENNAPS]

Just said on News at half time Wales v France game that Brit planes are now involved. Do we know which Sqn?

Also Tomahawk missiles from HMS Cumberland??

Did I hear right?

[Justanopinion]

Not at all Easy Street. I have the upmost respect for both aircraft and operators, the debate was about suitable airfields for the British aircraft... And how a carrier would provide additional flex.

[ian176]

Latest Pentagon brief mentioned a RN Trafalgar class sub firing Tomahawk(s?). Spotter websites mentioning Gr4 airborne from Marham as well

[500N]

110 Cruise missiles from the US ships and subs and a few from one British Sub directed at 20 sites.

That's a fair start.

[blaireau]

A post colonial era demonstrates the strength and stability of the former.

[anotherthing]

Certainly not wanting to turn this into a political argument but...US President Barack Obama, speaking during a visit to Brazil, said the US was taking "limited military action" as part of a "broad coalition".
"We cannot stand idly by when a tyrant tells his people there will be no mercy," he said....tt seems strange that we civilised countries pick and choose which tyrants to attack... There is more to this than merely 'protecting' innocents

[BandAide]

At the attacker, you do get to pick and choose. Goes without saying, really.

[Jonty]

Good luck to all those air crew in action over Lybia tonight.

[TEEEJ]

Biscuit74 wrote

Nasty. When did the MiG 21 crash?

I believe it was the 17th March?

TJ

[dead_pan]

Al Jazeera reporting the loss of a French a/c over Libya.

[TEEEJ]

Modern Elmo wrote,

Seriously, this Libyan business may be a useful image-changing event for French armed forces.

Why do you say that? French forces have been involved in Afghanistan for quite some time now. Mirage 2000, Mirage F1, Super Etendard and Rafale with support aircraft have been providing close air support for years now. Other French forces have also been involved in Afghanistan.

TJ

[sablatnic]

I've heard rumors about a French MIG 23 down?!? Anyone heard anything about something? French MIG 23???

[TEEEJ]

Sablatnic,

French forces don't operate any MiGs. The MiG-23 was earlier today over Benghazi. It is believed that it was a rebel operated MiG-23. See previous post in this thread.

Libyan state TV has stated that a French warplane has been shot down. The French defence ministry have stated that all aircraft are safe and none are missing.

TJ

[sablatnic]

I know that. That was the reason for all my ???'s.
It could have been a Mirage F1. Are they still using them?

[TEEEJ]

Sablatnic,

Yes the French still use the Mirage F.1s. The Libyans will probably drag out an old Libyan Mirage wreck for propaganda purposes?

TJ

[Mike7777777]

100+ Tomahawks 24 hours after a UN resolution? There's a signal there somewhere.

Although I'm uncertain regarding the long term political objectives.

[Easy Street]

pr00ne,

As a British citizen I agree with your sentiment that the UK should try to act as a "force for good" (a phrase lifted from the UK military's mission statement, in fact). However, the reality is that last year's National Security Strategy only listed threats which directly affected our hard-headed national interest. Our force structures and funding levels have been based on its assumptions through the medium of SDSR.

Imagine if this had kicked off a few weeks later - perhaps post-PR11? We would have had no Nimrod R1, possibly fewer VC10s, possibly no GR4s beyond those committed to the HERRICK cycle, possibly no Typhoons due to lack of F3 cover at home, no HMS Cumberland...

I guess my point is that if we are going to retain this level of capability to perform forced interventions outside of the direct national interest, we need to state it in the National Security Strategy; after all, human rights abuses by dictators are far more common than many of the other threats listed therein. This would affect the priority applied to the relevant capabilities in our defence reviews - and would enable the appropriate arms to be funded accordingly.

[bakseetblatherer]

All forces deploying over seas have to take the following quiz, a bit like a recce quiz.

Charlie Sheen v Muammar Gaddafi: whose line is it anyway? | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/quiz/2011/mar/01/muammar-gaddafi-charlie-sheen-quiz)

[SRENNAPS]

So far on the news all I have seen is an aircraft flown by the rebel’s crash. A lot of people are saying that the peace fire has been broken………but by whom.

A few other points, as shown on the news:

What is the difference between the civilians on Gadhafi’s side, to the civilians on the rebel’s side? If you watch ALL of the news reports you will see that Col G does have a fair amount of civilian support. And don’t tell me it is all propaganda from Gadhafi.

Is this fight to give people democracy? Is it to save civilian lives? What the hell is it about? We really are sticking our noses into an internal problem this time and using terms such as civilian casualties and democracy to justify it.

Finally, by the way 52 more civilians in Yemen and a further 10 in Bahrain killed today. These are the same civilians who are demonstrating because they want democracy.

Don’t get me wrong Gaddafi is yet another evil man that needs to go, but we are doing this all the wrong way.

Pr00ne

No other country is attacking their own civilian population like Gadaffi is

Yes they are, it just so happens that it is on a slightly smaller scale and the countries involved happen to be friends with us. Oh and half of the African states, but we also choose to do nothing about that.

[Phileas Fogg]

Who recalls the Falklands BBC reporting "I counted them out and I counted them all back" whilst Argentina were reporting one shoot down after another after another etc?

[500N]

Mike
"100+ Tomahawks 24 hours after a UN resolution? There's a signal there somewhere.

Although I'm uncertain regarding the long term political objectives."


Yep, the US doesn't like him and unlike Blair, didn't "forget the past" and cuddle up to him.

[1771 DELETE]

Good luck to all the crews involved, i hope for a quick and early settlement and everyone to return safely.

[Brewster Buffalo]

Is this fight to give people democracy? Is it to save civilian lives? What the hell is it about? Or is it all about the oil? again! How long before ground troops are needed to police the inevitable ceasefire??

[BOAC]

How long before ground troops are needed to police the inevitable ceasefire?? - it will not happen, Brewster - DC said not, and you know you can trust a politician..................................

[Trim Stab]

Ironically the biggest loser in all these political upheavals in the near and middle east will be Israel. Once people the people in Libya/Egypt/Tunisia/Saudia/Yemen/Bahrain/Morocco are genuinely empowered, they will be far more radically anti-Israel than most of their former dictatorial leaders who have been tacitly supported by the West.

If true democracy does sweep through the Islamic world, then there will be very fundamental changes in Israel too.

[Squirrel 41]

Trim,

I rather doubt it. So far, the revolutions have been focussed on the failures of the previous regimes to provide economic empowerment and political pluralism for their people - things that a war (of words or worse) with Israel won't solve.

S41

[k_hunjan]

now that the UK, US and France have reacted to Gaddaffi people will begin asking why we did not respond to Mugabe or even the riots in Egypt that have argueably sparked the current turmoil.

[Sir George Cayley]

Isn't tribalism part of the equation?

Sunni vs Shiite

Hutu vs Tutsi

Bugandans vs Bunyoros

Shona vs Ndebele

etc etc etc.

Colonially imposed borders have never accounted for tribes and hence started the ferment we see now.

And BZs all round for tonight's show.

Sir George Cayley

[AR1]

Yep, the US doesn't like him and unlike Blair, didn't "forget the past" and cuddle up to him.
The west has been 'cuddling up to him' behind the scenes for years. Yet when it came to it dropped him (more understandable) and Mubarak like a ton of bricks.
Frankly we look like vultures. And that's why I find the inconsistent reaction repugnant. We are I fear fostering the belief that OUR culture is pervasive.

That said, safe wings to our lads out there tonight.

[RumPunch]

Why are we doing this, never in the face of adversity have so many done so much for the cn*** at the top, feable poor leaders who hide behind others , David Cameron , Cleg and the Scottish ****, fail us all , bastards

[Wander00]

Sir G C - Rangers vs Celtic....

[dead_pan]

Frankly we look like vultures. And that's why I find the inconsistent reaction repugnant.

Fair comment.

I wonder how long before the fickle Arab 'street' swings behind Gaddafi?

[k_hunjan]

quote from the BBC: Libyan state TV Al-Jamahiriyah claims civilian targets in Tripoli have been bombed by aircraft of the "crusader enemy"

now that the bombs have begun to drop, we'll have to end this soon or gadaffi will continue to vent his anger on civilians, defeating the whole point of us being there in the first place. will this end gadaffi's rule?

[Easy Street]

k_hunjan,

Surely you understand the difference between the Libya situation and the revolution in Egypt? In Libya there has been wholesale employment of the apparatus of the state against its own people. In Egypt, the Army effectively ended up protecting the protesters, who in turn were (broadly) peaceful. So there is no comparison whatsoever between the two.

Zimbabwe is a slightly different matter. There probably is enough evidence of state action against citizens to justify some kind of action. However, the critical issue is that of 'sphere of influence'. South Africa is the leading power of the region and any kind of action would be futile without their full backing, which has been lacking.

The regional powers around Libya (the Arab League, and for argument's sake NATO) are in favour of action so there is no such problem here.

[Easy Street]

mlj,

I know that the Libyans could easily have someone watching aircraft movements at airbases around Europe, and a team watching every news station 24/7 frantically guessing whether they're watching library pictures... but let's at least make them work for their intel rather than posting it up here for them?!?

Suggest you delete...

Edit: Looks like someone just did! A warning to others - I suggest that commenting on press coverage is fine, but commenting on movements you've seen at your local airbase is not.

[k_hunjan]

(sorry to go slightly off topic)
thanks for feedback, i didn't look at it this way. but the point i was making was furthering a previous one by someone else, which was how western countries supposedly define their own 'tyrants' which again, links back to the whole oil issue. anyway, thanks for correcting me, i have a school debate about this on monday and that has offered a different perspective :ok:

[Phileas Fogg]

Easy Street,

When one had 100+ cruise missiles landing in one's garden how significant might it be that, a thousand (ish) miles away, a particular aircraft type or few took-off (destination unknown)?

[AR1]

On a Saturday night when action has commenced - fairly significant. Quick calculation of transit time to give a possible TOT.

Better say nothing.

[dead_pan]

things that a war (of words or worse) with Israel won't solve


I wouldn't be so sure. When people they find out that democracy doesn't transform their lives and put bread on the table, they may well drift towards those parties who blame their default enemy for their continuing privations. Witness the inexorable drift from moderate to hardline leadership in the Palestinian state, driven in a large part by the harsh economic realities in the enclave. The Israelis are right to be worried I believe.

[Phileas Fogg]

AR1,

I said destination unknown, could be destination an Italian or Greek airbase!

Meanwhile, with USS Enterprise (no, not the Star Trek variety) in the vicinity, with the French CDG carrier heading there also, I'd consider the fact that a particular aircraft might have moved from RAF Sandringham, or whatever, to be relatively insignificant vital information!

[Modern Elmo]

We are I fear fostering the belief that OUR culture is pervasive.

Do you actually mean "invasive"? Either way, you're right, Mr. Leftist.

Lefty Multi-Kulties have a lot to fear!

[Easy Street]

Phileas,

You may not have noticed - but none of the press reporting has confirmed whether the Tornados have gone from Lossiemouth or Marham, or whether the Typhoons are from Coningsby or Leuchars. Those facts are trivial enough on their own, but narrowing them down highlights which squadrons are going, which in turn indicates which individuals might be going. It is pretty apparent to me that we are purposefully not releasing these details - you can bet your life that the RAF publicity machine would love to tell all, but opsec is prevailing for the time being. Any footage on the news carries uncertainty - "when was this filmed?" etc, and some of today's footage is of routine training sorties (you can tell by the practice bomb carriers) - but time-stamped posts on here ("I just saw this at RAF xxx and it's been busy all evening") provide hard facts.

If the BBC come out tomorrow and give more detail away, that will have been vetted and approved by MoD.

[Modern Elmo]

From guardian.co.uk:

12.21am: A message on Libyan state television says the Libyan government had decided to end efforts to stop illegal immigration into Europe, citing a security source. ...

Gadaffi thinks he's let loose his ultimate weapon, but he's wrong, 'cuz all enlightened Europeans welcome more diversity. It's pervasive!

[Easy Street]

The statement from a Libyan government official in this clipping (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8393291/Libya-British-forces-launch-missile-attacks-on-Gaddafi.html) from the Telegraph amused me somewhat:


The missiles targeted Libyan command and control centres, radar installations and surface-to-air missile sites. Libyan officials said the attacks were “barbaric” and causing civilian casualties. Especially when you compare the intent with that of his leader (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Libya-Gaddafi-Tells-Rebels-In-Benghazi-Forces-Are-Coming-And-There-Will-Be-No-Mercy-For-Fighters/Article/201103315953868?f=rss)only a few days ago:

But he said "for those who resist there will be no mercy or compassion" and vowed to also reclaim the rest of the opposition-held east of the country.and even more ridiculously here (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10713513):

Libyan dictator Muammar Gaddafi last night threatened retaliatory attacks against passenger aircraft in the Mediterranean if foreign countries made air strikes against his country.Suddenly he appears to care about civilian lives! Crocodile tears, indeed. Let's just hope the left-wing press have enough sense not to be taken in this time around.

[TEEEJ]

MOD PRESS STATEMENT

The Chief of Defence Staff’s Strategic Communications Officer Major General John Lorimer said:

“British Armed Forces, as authorised by the UN Security Council Resolution 1973, have participated in a co-ordinated strike against Libyan Air Defence systems. In addition to the Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles (TLAM) launched from a Trafalgar Class submarine, I can now confirm that the RAF has also launched Stormshadow missiles from a number of Tornado GR4 fast jets, which flew direct from RAF Marham as part of a coordinated coalition plan to enforce the resolution.”

Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox said:

“We made clear that if Gaddafi did not comply with the UN Security Council Resolution 1973, it would be enforced through military action. Our Armed Forces have therefore participated in a co-ordinated international coalition strike against key military installations.

“We have launched Tomahawk Land Attack Missiles from a Trafalgar Class submarine and Stormshadow missiles from Tornado GR4s. The fast jets flew 3,000 miles from RAF Marham and back making this the longest range bombing mission conducted by the RAF since the Falklands conflict. This operation was supported by VC10 and Tristar air-to-air refuelling aircraft as well as E3D Sentry and Sentinel surveillance aircraft.

“HMS Westminster is off the coast of Libya and HMS Cumberland is in the region ready to support operations. Typhoon aircraft are also standing by to provide support.

“Our capable and adaptable Armed Forces are once again displaying their courage and professionalism. This action has provided a strong signal - the International community will not stand by while the Libyan people suffer under the Gaddafi regime.”

TJ

[Easy Street]

Well done to all at Marham - which now joins Bruggen in the list of MOBs to have directly hosted offensive operations in recent years. And well done also to the AAR crews; I guess we have a new power projection case study to sit alongside the Black Buck and Kosovo raids!

[racedo]

100+ Tomahawks 24 hours after a UN resolution? There's a signal there somewhere.

Although I'm uncertain regarding the long term political objectives.

Avid reader of the Wikileaks website here and appears Libya has been renegotiating Oil leases downwards over last couple of years making lots of oil companies pay lots more for less share.

Sarkozy facing relection and wanting to prove how tough he is but bet Libya will start showing how much cash he has gotten over the years.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Having staged my Tornado through Sigonella during a war on a Sunday, I know why the boys & girls crossed their legs and flew back to Marham!
The longest unit of time, after the eon, is the "Italian bowser driver's lunch"

[SASless]

3000 mile long shuttle....now that is unrelenting pressure!:uhoh:

Seems a bit shorter than what the USAF had to do years ago as the French were hard headed about our using their Airspace for a raid by F-111's on Libya.:mad:

Good on the folks involved in the operation.....the Lib's are now engaged with first class forces!:D

[CISTRS]

On a slightly more light-hearted note:

The MOD have removed Libya from the list of Countries who can file an on-line complaint regarding military low-flying.

Ministry of Defence | Contact us | Low Flying Complaints (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/ContactUs/LowFlyingComplaints.htm)

Must be someone's job to keep this up to date....:rolleyes:

_____________________

Now the die is cast - good luck to our guys and gals.

[Ali Barber]

When this is over, can we get back on with scrapping the aircraft and ships that we don't need? :ugh:

[FB11]

Capt P U G Wash,

"FB11, you are clearly from the school of the Tripwire Strategy - escalation and de-escalation obviously not part of your game plan."

and of course:

"FB, I guess the UN believed my argument more!"

Maybe you should talk to the UN and let them know they've made a mistake? You can send them a copy of the FIH at the same time and explain it would have been much better to demonstrate intent by wing-waggling.

Unless taking down the IADS isn't a tripwire strategy?

[Hell Man]

Now that the UK, US and France have reacted to Gaddaffi people will begin asking why we did not respond to Mugabe or even the riots in Egypt that have argueably sparked the current turmoil.

Oh brother, here we go again!

They say ignorance is bliss but please prunes .. do 5 mins research before posting!

Let me say this loud and clear as someone with 15 years in US government service with .. how shall I put this .. let's just say 'priviledged access to certain information':

The regimes in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi cannot be compared with that of Gadaffi, to understand this read: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/446137-real-gadaffi.html

HM

[crippen]

^^Quote When this is over, can we get back on with scrapping the aircraft and ships that we don't need? :phttp://i.dailymail.co.uk/img/cartoons/mac/2011/03/18032011.jpg


“Hang on! It’s the Prime Minister. Can we put it all back together again?”

[barnstormer1968]

"Surely you understand the difference between the Libya situation and the revolution in Egypt? In Libya there has been wholesale employment of the apparatus of the state against its own people. In Egypt, the Army effectively ended up protecting the protesters, who in turn were (broadly) peaceful. So there is no comparison whatsoever between the two."

Oddly, that looks just like a comparison to me......So perhaps you can:}

Next on the list:
I well remember one particular PPRUNER who was aghast at seeing a Noraid collection while at a USAF function!

Now to the real purpose of my post.

God bless the French for starting this off, due to at least having enough aircraft to take part. Keep safe to the French and Other forces taking part in this action, not least the RAF who are using old aircraft sourced from stupidly overstretched resources. That the RAF can mount this action, while still (only just) covering other theatres is bordering on miraculous IMHO.

This is not 'can do', but 'can do, and then a bit more with one hand behind your back'.:D:D:D

[LTNman]

So the UK forces are having to fly 3000 mile round trips to attack Libya.

A week after it is scrapped our one and only aircraft carrier is now really needed. Nice one David:mad:

[NURSE]

I wonder If the US had pushed "OP Eldarado Canyon" would we be in this position?

The Americans always had a Green spectled view of the "Old" country I wonder how they would have reacted to cross border raids into the Irish Republic and tactics they have been using in Afghanistan & Iraq if we'd applied them in Ireland.

why is no one talking about HMS Illustrious? the Invincible class was 3 carriers!

[AR1]

I said destination unknown, could be destination an Italian or Greek airbase!But just in case, you could calculate a TOT.

our one and only aircraft carrier is now really needed

I dont think that is proven at all. Yes nice to have. But really needed would mean we couldn't get aircraft over the target.

[SRENNAPS]

Hell Man,

There are not many people here who don’t agree with the fact Gadhafi is an evil man and needs to be toppled.

But let me put a couple of simple questions to you:

Are we doing this in the name of democracy and to allow people freedom or are we doing it to topple Gadhafi, because he is a bad man?

Is it acceptable to allow the leaders of Bahrain, Saudi or wherever to cause civilian deaths because the people of those countries demonstrating also want democracy and freedom?

[A2QFI]

We still have a carrier SFAIK - it is in re-fit at the moment. Even if we did have one available what would we be flying from it to enforce a NFZ?

[BritAir]

So the UK forces are having to fly 3000 mile round trips to attack Libya.

A week after it is scrapped our one and only aircraft carrier is now really needed. Nice one David:mad:I don't think it is all his fault. He has obviously been convinced (by blinkered, jack t:mad:ts) to cut flexible and effective assets (but thats another post).

Surely an Aircraft Carrier in the Med would be more 'cost effective' (than 4 Tornados having to be refuelled to fly 3000 miles to drop a few bombs - maybe not as ridiculous as the Vulcan raids during the Falklands) and more importantly more flexible to react to circumstances on the ground i.e. quicker to respond?

[Geehovah]

So the UK forces are having to fly 3000 mile round trips to attack Libya.

A week after it is scrapped our one and only aircraft carrier is now really needed. It depends on level of effort.

Operating GR4s from a secure rear area with established logistics chain using stand off weapons is a good way to go at this stage. If the sortie rate ramps up or sortie durations (say CAP) increase then a FOB might be a better idea.

Until the Libyan OCA forces are degraded a tad more sitting a carrier within range might not be smart. I'm afraid this op with plenty of potential NATO FOBs surrounding the AOR is not a good justification for the carriers.

[Pol Potty mouth]

What's wrong with all these blinkered fools who keep whingeing about the RN's loss of the carriers? This had no bearing on this op whatsoever! The fact is that the RAF are able to conduct 3000nm bombing ops; it's one of the reasons why they are around rather than relying solely on comparitively short-range embarked aircraft. Did they need to mount the op from 1500nm away? Clearly 'their airships' decided that on this occasion they did for whatever reason, but there are other options for basing in the region one would have thought that you would imagine would be explored for sustained ops.

So rather than constantly bemoaning loss of one capability, why not say well done to the crews that are displaying a different one. Well done fellas, fly safe.

[NutLoose]

From guardian.co.uk:

12.21am: A message on Libyan state television says the Libyan government had decided to end efforts to stop illegal immigration into Europe, citing a security source. ...

Gadaffi thinks he's let loose his ultimate weapon, but he's wrong, 'cuz all enlightened Europeans welcome more diversity. It's pervasive!

No longer a problem as those that want to leave are using Egypt or Tunisia as their Countries of choice, the fact does not appear to have sank in that they were probably fleeing Libya in the first place to get away from him.........

[Ivan Rogov]

Good luck to all involved.

I hope the suits have a plan. The 'easy' bit is the initial air strikes, cue puffed up grinning leaders briefing the press on how great they are. The 'bad' guys will try every trick in the book to confuse the issue and collateral damage (real or staged) would be a gift for Islamic fundamentalist’s accross the world, more fuel for the fire?

What option does Gaddafi have? If he doesn't have any then he can only stay and fight. If he goes who will fill the void? Or will we end up destabilising the region. In reality they might end up just killing each other over a longer period, the rebels will hate us for not doing more and Gaddafi supporters for intervening at all!

Lets just hope it's over before they announce the redundancies :rolleyes:

[FB11]

Pol Potty Mouth,

I see you're new to the forum - a hearty welcome.

Firstly, I don't think you'll find many (any) on this forum who don't support the sailors and airmen involved in the operations last night. This isn't really a forum for posting a bunch of 'well dones'; most don't need to receive platitudes in an open forum such as this although the occasional nicety is pleasant enough.

Instead of referring to folks as blinkered fools, maybe if you raise it up a notch you can see that most are mourning the loss of flexibility the UK has in deploying and sustaining operations. The same comments about the carrier (no matter how much people believe it would have been of no value) will be said about MPA and ASTOR (on death row) as we move into embargo and NFZ ops.

It's not about the carrier in isolation, it's about the issue that we now only have the ability to mount land based fixed wing air ops as opposed to inherent flexibility you have if a choice is available.

FB11

[0497]

B2 bombers are making non-stop round trips from the US.

food for thought: the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles

[AR1]

Its up for discussion now on Nicky Campbell's ' Big Question'..

[dalek]

A 3000 nm round trip. A great bit of political Grandstanding but completely impractical as a long term solution. What is wrong with Sigonella or Souda Bay?

[JFZ90]

the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles


T45 has Sylver launchers.

Have a read of this, re Naval Scalp.

Storm Shadow - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storm_Shadow)

[Lone_Ranger]

Quote:
Now that the UK, US and France have reacted to Gaddaffi people will begin asking why we did not respond to Mugabe or even the riots in Egypt that have argueably sparked the current turmoil.
HellMan says.....


Oh brother, here we go again!

They say ignorance is bliss but please prunes .. do 5 mins research before posting!

Let me say this loud and clear as someone with 15 years in US government service with .. how shall I put this .. let's just say 'priviledged access to certain information':

The regimes in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi cannot be compared with that of Gadaffi, to understand this read: The Real Gadaffi (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/446137-real-gadaffi.html)

HM




Oh, so nothing to do with oil then:rolleyes:

[AR1]

Oh, so nothing to do with oil thenDespite my earlier dissent, I don't think it is. Libya contributes a relatively small amount to world production, behind Venezuela and others according to figures from OPEC (2%).
In the scheme of things, Libya not selling oil is far more damaging to it's economy than it is to ours.
And don't confuse any forthcoming profiteering at the petrol pumps with the impact of Libyan oil missing from the market.

[Brewster Buffalo]

IIRC Libya provides a provides a lot of Italy's oil also remember this

"The release of the Lockerbie bomber from prison would liberate Britain’s largest industrial company from a string of problems hampering its $900 million (£546 million) Libyan gas projects, industry sources claimed last night.BP, the oil giant, signed a deal with Libya in 2007 to explore for gas in the west of the country and offshore."

Al-Megrahi’s release ‘would free BP’ to join the rush for Libya’s oil - Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6797118.ece)

[0497]

A 3000 nm round trip. A great bit of political Grandstanding but completely impractical as a long term solution. What is wrong with Sigonella or Souda Bay?

Danish F-16s are are operating out of Sicily. Spanish and Canadian Hornets are apparently heading there as well.

Any word on the USMC Harriers?:)

[Madbob]

My guess on why we opted on a 3,000 mile round trip is not due to the lack of forward base options but because we are so over-stretched and under-resourced that we don't anymore have the AT (air transport/logistic) "tail" to forward deploy any offensive air assets.:ugh:

OK as a one-off mission I suppose, but hardly sustainable long term. Another example of military options being sacrificed as a result of SDR.

MB

[Captain Radar....]

I wonder if the round trip from Markham was to provide a quicker response than maybe would have been possible by forward deploying with all the necessary support required. Not much point going to another base if you haven't got a load of Stormshadows with you and somewhere to store them etc. Maybe this gives some breathing space to get that lot set up, the AT fleet must be stretched to the limit as it is without having to start a (relatively) no notice deployment to the Med. Having said that, if you only want to launch a limited number in the first (SAD) phase this is an efficient way to do it. The follow up NFZ piece I assume would be done by Typhoon based 'locally' and is probably easier to support.

Niff naff question, does anyone know how one climbs in and out of a Rafale if there is no nice big ladder available?!! Doesn't look as if the kick in F4 type step would would work, there's a heck of an overhang! Is there a drop out internal ladder?

[B_Oiledup]

CNN have reported that Marine Harriers carried out ground attack operations overnight.

[Wrathmonk]

My guess on why we opted on a 3,000 mile round trip is not due to the lack of forward base options but because we are so over-stretched and under-resourced that we don't anymore have the AT (air transport/logistic) "tail" to forward deploy any offensive air assets

Or perhaps it was to show that we can respond very quickly to a UNSCR resoloution whilst waiting for the logistics "train" to get to the FOB and, once it is ready, forces will deploy and continue missions from wherever that may be (as was the case in Kosovo). In both GW1 and GW2 there was months of build up to give Sadaam time to "dig in". Perhaps Col G thought he had a few more days with which to beat his citizens into submission before the bombs started knocking on his door.

I think that apart from those 'who needed to know' both the TLAM and StormShadow attacks, in terms of response time to the passing of the resoloution, will have taken most people by surprise (particularly in terms of the speed of the air response - who knows how long the sub has been parked off the Libyan coast;)).

The EDP (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/raf_marham_jets_in_action_over_libya_1_835355)is reporting at least 3 jets. So thats the 4 sqn cdrs, stn cdr and OC Ops with a seat then....!:ok:

[Martin the Martian]

Were these missions the first bombing raids to be launched from the UK since 1945? I know there was the Torrey Canyon, but that was target practice rather than offensive ops.

Fly safe all involved. Your professionalism is an example to everyone.

[sitigeltfel]

The US raids on Tripoli in 1986 were launched from the UK. They had to go the long way round as France, Italy and Spain denied overflights.

Bettino Craxi, the Italian Prime Minister at the time, gave Libya two days warning of the raids, allowing Gaddaffi to ensure he was safe.

Operation El Dorado Canyon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Libya)

[BunkerRat]

Easy Street deserves a prize for logic and an RP appointment for... ;) Well said my friend :D


"...Imagine if this had kicked off a few weeks later - perhaps post-PR11? We would have had no Nimrod R1, possibly fewer VC10s, possibly no GR4s beyond those committed to the HERRICK cycle, possibly no Typhoons due to lack of F3 cover at home, no HMS Cumberland...

I guess my point is that if we are going to retain this level of capability to perform forced interventions outside of the direct national interest, we need to state it in the National Security Strategy; after all, human rights abuses by dictators are far more common than many of the other threats listed therein. This would affect the priority applied to the relevant capabilities in our defence reviews - and would enable the appropriate arms to be funded accordingly"

[Willard Whyte]

The EDP (http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/raf_marham_jets_in_action_over_libya_1_835355)is reporting at least 3 jets. So thats the 4 sqn cdrs, stn cdr and OC Ops with a seat then....!

I'm sure OC Admin will get in on the act by demanding a full audit of all munitions dispensed, no doubt wishing to know why receipts were not issued by the Libyan government.

[Just This Once...]

food for thought: the VLS planned for Daring T45 destroyers are not compatible with Tomahawks missiles

Storm Shadow has different capabilities to the Tomahawk and together they have a credible spread of capabilities. The RN Tomahawk community and RAF Storm Shadow community are no strangers to each other and neither the RAF or RN are imagining a future without the RN gaining a version of Storm Shadow to fire from the T45 at some point.

No willy waving between the RN and RAF on this one.:ok:

http://www.defpro.com/data/gfx/news/e40ac8f61e59207ea033abeba0f83523afcbf7ab_big.jpg

[Wrathmonk]

I'm sure OC Admin will get in on the act

I'm sure in good old RAF tradition they will have briefed as a 6, walked as a 5, taxied as a 4 to get airborne as a 3! Plenty of room for OC Admin in there!!

Also it's amazing how far the noise of a GR4 landing travels (even with min thrust reverse) in the middle of the night!!:ok:

[M609]

6 Norwegian F-16AMs are leaving for Sigonella tomorrow according to the RNoAF.

[dalek]

If you look at your world atlas the best place to base for Air Support for the Benghazi area is Souda or Iraklion. Are the Greeks on board for this OP?

[Squirrel 41]

Note to all beancounters out there: JTO is quite right - Storm Shadow and Tomahawk are complementary, not competitive. And putting them in Sylver launchers would be a good thing for the T45 community.

If you need to know, go and ask someone. If you don't, then please accept this and move on in your search for savings.

S41

[Justanopinion]

I. Diplomatic relations
*
Diplomatic relations between the two countries date back to 1952, when Libyas independence was formally recognized by the UN. Greece has an Embassy in Tripoli, while Libya is represented in Greece through her Embassy in Athens.

II. Framework of treaties
*
The main bilateral agreements making up the treaty framework of Greek-Libyan relations are as follows:
*
- Agreement regulating scheduled flights between and beyond Greek and Libyan territories. Initialled in Tripoli, 23.1.1979. Law 1088/4.11.80 (Gov. Gazette 258//8.11.1980). Came into force 14.2.1981 (Gov. Gazette 51//27.2.1981)
- Agreement on social insurance, Athens, 24.3.1988. Law 1909/1990 (Gov. Gaz. 163//30.11.1990). Came into force 1.3.1991 (Gov. Gaz. 42//18.3.1991)
Economic and Technical Cooperation
- Agreement on economic and technical cooperation, Athens 21.2.1976. Law 537/7.2.1977 (Gov. Gaz. 35//9.2.1977). Came into force 20.6.1977 (Gov. Gaz. 248//3.9.1977)
- Protocol of 6th Session of Joint Inter-Ministerial Committee on technical and economic cooperation, Athens, 1.11.1991(.4070).
- Memorandum of Understanding (Special Greek-Libyan Committee on debt- related issues), Athens 7.5.1998 Min. Decision 29.3.1999 (Gov. Gaz. 79//14.4.1999)
*
III. Political relations
*
Relations between the two countries have a long history, dating back to the 7th century BC, when a Greek colony was founded at Cyrenaica by settlers from Thera. The first historical reference to and description of Libya (meaning Africa more generally) is to be found in the works of Herodotus.
*
Relations between the two countries today have important potential for further development, following the start of proceedings to bring Libya back onto the international scene in December 2003, when the Libyan leader formally renounced programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction, and following the recent lifting of EU sanctions against Libya in October 2004.
*
The highest level bilateral vists took place in 1984 (September, visit of the then Prime Minister A. Papandreou to Tripoli; November,*Tripartite Meeting of Messrs Papandreou, Mitterand, and Qaddafi in Elounda, Crete ).

Bilateral visits since the lifting of UN sanctions in 1999 have included that by the then Deputy Foreign Minister, G. Kranidiotis, to Tripoli in September 1998, the visit made by the Libyan Foreign Minister, Mr. Mohammed Shalgam, to Athens in December 2002, and the visits of Minister for Tourist Development, Mr D. Avramopoulos (Tripoli, May 2005) and Deputy Foreign Minister, Mr G. Valinakis (Tripoli, July 2005).
*
V. Economic and trade relations

Libya was the 2nd most important client for Greek products among Arab countries in 2007. Bilateral trade relations show significant fluctuations and the trade balance shows a permanent deficit to the detriment of Greece, which is exclusively due to imports of crude oil.
Libya was Greeces 3rd most important supplier in crude oil for 2007, ahead of Saudi Arabia.
*
Trade
*
Year
Exports
Imports
Balance
2000
21,8 m. Euro
261,1 m. Euro
-239,30 m. Euro
2001
42,09 m. Euro
250,5 m. Euro
-248,41 m. Euro
2002
98,83 m. Euro
241,34 m. Euro
-142,51 m. Euro
2003
69,49 m. Euro
326,74 m. Euro
-257,25 m. Euro
1st 9 months of 2004
96,57 m. Euro
335,10 m. Euro
-141,66 m. Euro
*
External trade between Greece and Libya is dominated by the following products, in order of importance: oil and oil derivatives, iron and steel, organic chemicals, minerals and electrical machinery and appliances.
*
Figures available for 2004 would seem to indicate the beginning of a growth in trade which, if sustained, could well lead to new prospects for business and trade dealings between the two countries. Bearing in mind the stratification of bilateral trade, which is heavily weighted towards oil and oil derivatives, it is fair to say that there are substantial prospects for the expansion and development of bilateral economic and trade relations, given the significant changes occurring in the Libyan economy.

Investments: Greek investment activity in Libya consists mainly in the presence in the country of the Hellenic Petroleum company, which along with the Australian Woodside Energy Ltd. and the Spanish Repsol YPF has signed a four-party joint venture agreement with the Libyan Oil Company (NOC), envisaging a programme of research and exploitation of hydrocarbons over a period of 30 years and to the tune of US $100m. Other Greek companies active in Libya are MARITECH S.A., which has a subsidiary operation in Tripoli (engaged in installing optic fibre telecommunication links along the Libyan coast), as well as the construction companies ARCHIRODON S.A. (Tripoli), ATHINA S.A. (Tripoli),*E.T.E.P. (Tripoli), SIKELIS (Ben Ghazi), and INTRACOM S.A. (as INTRACOM LIBYA BRANCH*- Tripoli).

Tourism: There are major investment opportunities in a country which, whilst undergoing rapid development of her tourist infrastructure, is at the same time becoming known as a popular international tourist destination thanks to her natural beauty and ancient remains. Tourist visits to Libya can be made mainly with organized groups (through tourist bureaus).
*
V. Cultural relations

A major cultural event of interest to Greece was the organization of the APOLLONIA 2003, arranged to mark the Cultural Olympiad by the Greek Community and Schools of Ben Ghazi, with the assistance of the Greek Embassy (Ben Ghazi and Cyrene, 9-11/5/2003).

Cultural bodies with Greek ties include the Archaeological Department of the University of Ben Ghazi.

VI. The Greek community

The Greek community constitutes an important bridge for communication between the two countries. There have been Greeks in Tripoli and Ben Ghazi for many generations, with their own Community Organizations and Orthodox churches respectively. There are also Greeks working for companies in Libya, some with Greek connections, some entirely foreign.


Greece seems to have a reasonable amount of investment with Libya.

[dalek]

And another thing.
The terrain around Benhazi is ideal for A10 operations. I know, I once lived there.
Once Air Superiority is established a single squadron based at Souda will stop any armoured advance dead in its tracks. A few fighters to protect them and everybody else can go home.

[SiteIII]

According to Sky.

Typhoons have departed CBY

Tankers have left BZZ

French aircraft currently talking to malta atc @ level 280

[Check 6]

Fox3wheresmybananna:
Having staged my Tornado through Sigonella during a war on a Sunday, I know why the boys & girls crossed their legs and flew back to Marham!
The longest unit of time, after the eon, is the "Italian bowser driver's lunch"


Spot on. :ok: This brings back memories of my time spent at Sigonella and other Italian air fields. :ugh:

[Phileas Fogg]

Easy Street,

I was watching BBC news earlier today, I watched an MoD released video of the Tornado's preparing for last night's operations, there was a shot of one flight crew member, sitting in the cockpit, and whilst his whole face was not broadcast his physical features, parcial face, hairline, head etc. were broadcast and anyone that knows that individual would have recognised him accordingly as being involved in last night's operations!

[SiteIII]

just look at the RAF youtube channel. shows the returning crews including a how'd it go question...

YouTube - Return of Tornado GR4

[SiteIII]

if you check the RAF youtube channel it shows a chat with a returning crew.

[A2QFI]

So presumably anyone who didn't know him wouldn't recognise him and there wouldn't be a problem?

[draken55]

The Arab League appears to have been taken aback by the scale of the attack launched last night. If their political support ebbs away this could begin to look like the West taking on another Arab leader with the objective of Regime change.:hmm:

[AR1]

Regime change is a desired side effect of the NFZ - I'm in no doubt about that, but theoretically it will happen from within.

[Chris Scott]

Re SiteIII's post at 1324z:

BBC News24 has just broadcast video footage of at least 5 Typhoons departing RAF Conningsby, equipped with drop tanks. The video was allegedly taken some time today.

[SiteIII]

Both Sky and BBC have shown departing aircraft.

Malta live atc has lots of chatter with coalition assets in and around the NFZ

lots of realtime stuff available across the internet.

[outhouse]

Well done to all crews involved to date. Seems the French airforce did a too good job last night. Resulting in rather less than agreeable news from the Arab league. Still may be a stiff letter was what they expected to do the job and allow our aircraft safe passage.:ugh:

[0497]

Look at what the French did

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/21/world/africa/21benghazi.html?hp

...
For miles leading south, the roadsides were littered with burned trucks and burned civilian cars. In some places battle tanks had simply been abandoned, intact, as their crews fled. One thing, though, seemed evident: the units closest to Benghazi seemed to have been hit with their cannons and machine guns still pointing towards the rebel capital.

To the south, though, many had been hit as they headed away from the city in a headlong dash for escape on the long road leading to a distant Tripoli.

“They were retreating,” said Col. Abdullah al-Shafi, an officer in the rebel forces which had clamored desperately for the help that arrived on Saturday. “Soldiers had taken civilians cars and fled. They were ditching their fatigues.”

....

“This is all France,” a rebel fighter, Tahir Sassi, told a Reuters correspondent as he surveyed the devastation on Sunday. “Today we came through and saw the road open.”



http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/20/article-1368043-0B42466F00000578-90_634x431.jpg
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/20/article-1368043-0B4206C400000578-712_634x341.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/20/1300623896981/Vehicles-belonging-to-loy-004.jpg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/3/20/1300628921455/A-turret-of-a-tank-belong-004.jpg

[SRENNAPS]

With respect to the GR4 missions, does anybody know if it is a Marham/Lossi Wing effort or was it a particular Sqn?

Also the news says GR4s going to Gioia; same question really?

Would be good to give the job to the Crusaders as a swan song :D:D
(or 13 I suppose :rolleyes:)

To whomever it was/is, well done, good luck and keep safe.:ok:

[Squirrel 41]

SRENAPPS,

Quite right, stay safe out there people. If the lawyers allow it under ROE, I for one would like to see GR4s deploying Brimstone as intended against Gaddafi's armoured columns. I rather suspect that this would give many of his forces (and presumably most of the mercenaries) real pause for thought.

S41

[scarecrow450]

To whomever it was/is, well done, good luck and keep safe.

I concur, from the pics looked like a DH !!:D

[outhouse]

Well done to the French Airforce. Seemingly before the full suppression of anti aircraft defence was in work.*
Keep safe to all crews involved and clear sky's and a safe six.
:ok:

[Captain Radar....]

Apologies if I might repeat something already said but my posts have had to be vetted before appearing, this might be time late!

With Gadaffi threatening to take the war into the Med I hope we are going to look after plucky little Malta. Might be nice to have a flight of Typhoons there on readiness. Faith Hope and Charity ride again?

BTW, from watching the telly this morning Greece doesn't seem to have a problem being on board, Mirage 2000's videoed arriving in Souda (possibly from Qatar). Additionally Greece have thrown four F16's into the mix.

Apart from that E3D shown landing at Akrotiri, impressively big bombs being towed around at Aviano (EF/A 18 Growler in the background), Canadian F18's pitching into the circuit post mission at Trapani, possible a coincidence but a SEAD armed ECR Tornado was landing just ahead of them (Italy have said they would allow basing but wouldn't participate). A shot of an F16 tail at Sigonella while the reporter told us the Danes were there with F16's was a bit out of context, the F16 tail belonged to an Aviano based US aircraft.

Interesting to see XV Sqn and II (AC) Sqn marked aircraft doing the business and being told (by the BBC) that 9 Sqn flew the mission. Guess we can't afford the luxury of sqn's flying their own aircraft any more?

[ImageGear]

Yes well done indeed - the previous caustic doubters of French commitment seem strangely absent from this thread.

Imagegear

[draken55]

"Regime change is a desired side effect of the NFZ"

Desired by many no doubt but not the explicit aim of the UN Resolution.

If change is not seen as being from within there might well an impact on the broad support which allowed the UN to pass Resolution 1973 as a means of protecting the civillian population, not as a way to take sides in a Civil War.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Should be remembered that regime change in itself is specifically forbidden under the UN Charter. Would have to be proved that removing Qaddaffi was the only way to protect civilians from genocide, which is v. diff. in an international court no matter how obvious it appears to you, me and the dog.

Looks like the Arab League "dictators" (your choice as to what this means or who it includes) have realised they may be next. Arabs love talking about action, but actually taking it is something else.

Good luck to my old unit, now Typhoon equipped. Looking forward to "counting them all back in", and seeing the groundcrew heading out with the artist's paintbrushes. :ok:

Do wish the news wouldn't broadcast the take-off times.:=

[outhouse]

Well again the fog of war if I can use the phrase in this case comes into play.*
Military action is used when political aspirations fail. Military actions are a forceful implication of political needs, in this case a UN mandate *and an accepted means of action. The politics of the issue and the expected end result is in my humble view not a issue for the crews involved, as usual a task is given and the restrictions and limitations are governed by the rules of engagement.*
Politicians are not always clear in need, military action is.*
Let's hope that dithering and indecision from the political end is minimised as time moves on.

[MPN11]

Thanks for all the valuable inputs, gents.


It seems such a long time since I sat at my ASMA terminal in AFOps for GW1, reading the details of mission crew and knowing quite a few of them - and mercifully counting [nearly] all of them back.

God speed to all involved.

[side salad]

Ok, next time the white flag jokes appear, I wont forward any, France showed balls, well done.

[advocatusDIABOLI]

To the Guys who pooped of the Mx from Marham:

Long trip fellas, good one!
I've done a Op Cyclone- (Falklands), I KNOW what MB arse ache is!
Hope You (or it) Hit!
Recommend a Hot bath and Deep Heat............

NICE JOB. (be proud)

Advo

[outhouse]

News in just now in Qatar. French news crew missing in Libya.*

[Evalu8ter]

Sorry to appear to be a non-jingoistic party pooper, but do the pictures remind anyone else of the Basrah Road in '91? Not really AD assets being hit were they? Meat 'n drink to Libyan/anti-West propagandists.

This coalition needs very visible Arab/ME assets conducting CAPs soon for legitimacy.

However, well done to the GR boys - I'm sure there were numb bums all round! I trust a traditional bomber breakfast was had upon return?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Do keep up.

UN 1973 specifically states:
4. Authorises member states that have notified the secretary-general, acting nationally or through regional organizations or arrangements, and acting in co-operation with the secretary-general, to take all necessary measures, notwithstanding paragraph 9 of resolution 1970 (2011), to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory, and requests the member states concerned to inform the secretary-general immediately of the measures they take pursuant to the authorization conferred by this paragraph which shall be immediately reported to the Security Council;

Tanks outside a rebel town are an obvious threat to civilian populations, based on Qaddaffi's track record. Taking out AD assets is just another necessary step to establishing a NFZ to defend the civilians, which is the ultimate objective. UN aircrew can and should take out anything that is a threat (direct or otherwise) to innocent civilians.

If you think this includes the Tripoli MacDonalds on the basis of it being bad for civilians, then you're probably right, but that's what the UN signed up for.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Will these slims get a NFZ?

LiveLeak.com - Graphic: Aftermath of shelling of market place in Abidjan, Ivory Coast (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c04_1300583279)

Thought not.

The 'govern'ment could not care less for it's own people and even sends soldiers to fight wars based on lies, why would they suddenly care about Libya's civilian population???

It's all about the oil............again.

2% of a lot, is a lot.

Also, if you've not got the capability to do the job alone, waiting for others to bulk up your numbers just makes the country look weak and pathetic imo.

[minigundiplomat]

That's right Pious,

The good Colonel was a good mate of Gordon and Tony's, and by extension - you and the rest of your lefty mates.

Tony would never have contemplated making a decision based on the location of oil reserves - would he? Far better to stick to very loose and maleable principles whilst a despot bombs his own population.

[keesje]

I followed CNN international and I'm amuzed by the apparent inability to report on the french striking first.

They are ignoring, generalizing, avoiding, minimizing. Maybe they don't want to confuse the home market.

People want to be confirmed in their opinions, customer satisfaction is king, the advertisers want volumes.

[Martin the Martian]

Were these missions the first bombing raids to be launched from the UK since 1945?

Sorry, should have been more specific. Were these the first RAF bombing missions from the UK since 1945?

[BandAide]

Sure they will, Pious.

All you need to do is get it through the UN.

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

Wisbech Cambs.
Last night about 11 O'clock heard some military aircraft overflying.
Went outside to see a formation of Aircraft fairly high, flying south.
Formation well spaced and counted at least three.

A little while later two more jet aircraft circled over the Wisbech area.
Relatively slow and a in loose formation and with only White lights showing.

They circled once and then flew off in same direction south as the earlier formation.

From the little information so far released this sighting and the timing does not seem to tie with any of the known activities.
So I am wondering if anyone else may have heard/seen this activity and any thoughts on what it may have been.

OPF

[outhouse]

NO the last strike on Libya was from the UK and a very long routing. I think if memory serves USAF F111s. Result on sky news tonight and that was in the 90s.:ok:

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Pious, Minigundiplomat has a good reputation for being even-handed and realistic about these things. It's not his fault that the UN doesn't back action in Ivory Coast.