LIBYA (Merged) Use this thread ONLY

[Cows getting bigger]

The French probably started bombing without full suppression due to the Yanks presenting them with a doctored ACO/ATO. :)

I'll get my coat.

PS. Keep up the god work, everyone.

[sled dog]

Pious, that was a rather hard rant. Is M G D a personal friend of yours ? I worked for a while in Libya, and know from first hand what the brutal regime is really like. Have you ?

[outhouse]

Well just seen the local TV news, seems Arab friends are on the way in support of the operation in Libya. Should hit the world news soon.

[dead_pan]

PS. Keep up the god work, everyone


Yes, it does seem like we are lording over all before us, doesn't it? Oh, you meant good work?!!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

They're fighter aircrew; he means god work. But note the small 'g', just to show we're modest too.

[moggiee]

My UAE supplied satellite telly system (which I believe actually broadcasts from Egypt) seems to have lost most of its news channels, including BBC World so I'm currently left with just CNN.

Not the best option, to be honest, but the internet here is too slow to stream the BBC.

Best wishes and safe operating to all of the guys involved so far and in the future, whatever service or nationality they may be.

[FLYAIR10]

6 Belgian F-16's will support the mission Odyssey Dawn . The jets are currently at Araxos-airbase in Greece. Ammo was flown in yesterday/today by C-130's. Detachment will be under UK command(I think) and is ready for action as from tomorrow.
Grtz.

[TwoStep]

NO the last strike on Libya was from the UK and a very long routing. I think if memory serves USAF F111s. Result on sky news tonight and that was in the 90s.:ok:

No, that was by USAF in 86, the question was, is this the first RAF offensive strike launched from the UK mainland since 1945?

[outhouse]

Clear sky's and safe return to all crews. Maybe an old fart can also add, kick arse.*

Regarding the last operational bombing mission out of the UK by the RAF, no idea, other than the intelligence gathering and radar mapping over the cold war period, and some interesting stuff with the u 2 and other assets.*

[Geehovah]

This thread is building quickly but can everyone think OPSEC. Lets not post mission critical information here! Before you post just ask yourself whether it's already been released. Lives are at risk!

The releases on the BBC are fine but lets not help the "hoovers"

[SRENNAPS]

MPN11

It seems such a long time since I sat at my ASMA terminal

ASMA, my love and my life for so many years. How did we manage without it?

I bet the equivalent today has all the bells and whistles and even a colour screen.

My fondest memory though was when a young officer in Riyadh, preparing for his brief to the Gods, rang me to ask what a RTS for the Tornado was and why we had not gone “D” State. When I informed him it meant “robbed to service” he felt a tadge embarrassed.

Apologies for thread drift but with what is going on today brings out so many memories of the past.

[Kreuger flap]

Lets not post mission critical information here!

This is pprune. Somehow I doubt your average user will no anything about critical mission information.

[Rigchick]

Launched from Western Has Site.

Media Quoted 9 Sqn.

As airframes are shared now the markings do not mean they are flown by the Sqn that is marked on the thing.

BBC News site still shows a XIII Sqn airframe.:ok::ok::ok::ok:

All the best to the boys and girls at the Western Site!!!

[Geehovah]

Those that have critical info will know. Those that don't should think about whether they would want an opponent to know about the fact that they post.

[MPN11]

ISTR the GW1 sqns were equipped with the jets that had all the latest mods.

The rest is a paint job when someone has time to fukkk about.

[Rigchick]

BBC news says 9 Sqn.


Common knowledge where they live!!!

[Geehovah]

On the other hand lets not be taken in by Libyan IO

The BBC is posting shots of "Triple A" over Tripoli. Ghadaffi wants us to think he is mounting a heroic campaign against "Crusader attacks". The fire is random over multiple vectors. That would be a very effective response if we were mounting multiple axis attacks using dumb bombs! The fire is on a fixed vector with no movement for tracking.

There are no aircraft on the end of that tracer fire. This is Ghadaffi or his minions ordering fire to "showtime" for the western media.

Lets not be taken in by propaganda.:ok:

[Bunker Mentality]

I'm amazed no-one has asked the Big Questions yet-

Is there a medal? Will it be a special one like Telic, or an OSM like Afghan and Sierra Leone? Will there be lots of yellow - sorry, sand - in it? ;)

Is the Op allowance payable? :zzz:

If I deploy on this Op, can I still apply for redundancy? :uhoh:


What do you mean bad taste/timing? :E

[Kreuger flap]

Don't worry about it geehovah. Somehow I doubt gaddafi will be looking at this thread to gain information about the NFZ, you aren't that important.:rolleyes:

[Geehovah]

I'm not important. The aircrew flying on ops are!
And trust me, more than Ppruners are watching this site

[Rigchick]

I agree, you need the best jet you can get when you need them.

In peace time the Sqn markings do still add a bit of ownership to your airframes. It costs to paint them, so will stop no doubt, if it has not already.

Next will be no Sqns at all just a Station with some planes and crews, aircrew and groundcrew.

The future?

[Rigchick]

We show clips on the news of the crews getting in.

We show clips on YouTube and the news of them getting out, and talking to the camera.

I have not named the crews but we show them on TV.

Is that right that they are shown for the world to see???

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Geehovah doesn't think he's important. He thinks the currently deployed aircrew are important.
My dog could figure out TOTs from some of the information available on the 'web/news media at present. Let's not help by adding credibility to speculative reports.
Mods please keep an eye on the OPSEC please.

[Lima Juliet]

Geehovah

You are correct Sir...

The main agency of Libyan intelligence is the Military Intelligence Force. Military intelligence collects both foreign and domestic intelligence information. Most intelligence forces operate as strategic, special units, whose daily operations remain largely unknown.

All, please be careful about what you post whilst Ops are ongoing.

LJ

[Pontius Navigator]

Rigchick, current thinking has changed. During the cold war when it was expected that there would be dozens on POW it was advocated that one should be the 'grey man'.

Now, with relativelky few expected the thinking is that publicity will help. the more notable the prisonner the great the bargaining counter for the captor.

In some cases it would matter not as you could expect mutilation dead or alive with no mercy - one reason why casualties in AFG are recovered at almost any cost.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Whether it's right or wrong to attack is irrelevant to me, I personally don't care about a bunch of SNs.

Like Iraq, what is relevant is the motive, and it's not humanitarian or else we would have been involved with many other nations before now. What p1sses me off is that we only get involved when we've got the spameritards onside. We're like the school rat lining up with the bully and giving the weak kid a good kicking to make us look like we matter, when in all reality, we don't, it's pathetic.

Idiots like the machinegundemic are not interested in consequence, their brain is incapable of looking at cause and effect, they're continually taken in by propaganda fed to them by their masters. Paid to do and not to think, a classic example.

But when the dust settles and the country of Libya is 10 x worse off than it was before and tens of thousands are dead, the old line of....."well he was bad to his people and now they're better off" will be trotted out again to justify the sh1t state the country will be left in for years. No mention that up until a couple of weeks ago Colonel Gaddaffi was sound again. No doubt the same line will be used on the machinegundemic to make him think they've done a worthwhile job and so they can sleep at night, well done son. Then look at the juicy contacts that will go out to haliburton or whatever they're called now for the re-building job and 30 year oil contracts.

Better the devil you know, just how many successful Islamic democracies are there in the world??? We can't even get democracy working in this country, let alone some crap hole in the desert.

Yet again, the UK is sorting out someone else's problem and for BS reasons, but at least the machinegundemic gets to blat off a few rounds to make him feel important..........

[TightSlot]

Can anybody advise please if any of the personnel or equipment that are being used for these ops are scheduled to be made redundant, or otherwise scrapped under SDR?

[Easy Street]

Can anybody advise please if any of the personnel or equipment that are being used for these ops are scheduled to be made redundant, or otherwise scrapped under SDR?

HMS Cumberland - to be decommissioned
Nimrod R1 - due to retire 1 Apr (3 month extension granted)
Sentinel R1 - to retire on completion of Op HERRICK
Tristar - to retire from 2013
VC10 - 2 frames to go soon, the rest by 2013
Tornado GR4 - Two sqns closing by Jun. Strong rumours of further reductions in PR11.

The Nimrod R1, Tristar and VC10 all have replacements lined up; however I would never stake anything on our ability to seamlessly transfer all the capabilities!

[Bill Macgillivray]

Our leaders appear to have limited ideals, I fear! I am no supporter of the Libyan regime but what about Zimbabwe and, indeed, Bahrain? Is there a great difference between them? The "call me D__e" leader seems to have conveniently ignored them for some reason!

[Thelma Viaduct]

Our leaders appear to have limited ideals, I fear! I am no supporter of the Libyan regime but what about Zimbabwe and, indeed, Bahrain? Is there a great difference between them? The "call me D__e" leader seems to have conveniently ignored them for some reason! Bang on the money.

That spam delivering the pentagon briefings hasn't got a clue what the objective is or rules of engagement are, even the journos with their basic lack of intelligence had him looking stupid. The 'tards can't wait to hand over command either, they know it's going to get very messy and will just blame the euros for cocking it up when it goes tits, despite it never being achievable in the first place.

Just listen to how insistent he is when saying that command will switch within days, Obama is not as stupid as that texan inbred numpty they last had 'in charge'.

Sitting tight suits Gaddafi to the ground, just one huge stalemate that will cost millions to maintain, millions we don't have. The bloke revels in being the castigated outsider, it's what he is good at, and now he is no longer malleable.

The wet lipped buffoon must have gone to the same school as machinegundemic, but at least it makes the UK look important still. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

edit: Where's william vague been recently, I've missed his deep authoritarian tones :}

[Robert Cooper]

Libya is a distraction. The real endgame is the iran sponsored shiite rebellions underway in Bahrein, Yemen, and even Saudi. The final conflict will be in Saudi Arabia.

Bob C

[maxred]

Robert - :eek::eek:And on that really good bit of news think I may go to bed

[getsometimein]

Going to be difficult to launch air attacks from the UK/US airbases within Bahrain and Saudi isn't it...

Do they bomb their own runway then fly home?

[TightSlot]

Thanks Easy Street

If this situation had arisen in Aug 2011, would we be still be able to undertake these missions?

[essdee]

I don't normally get involved in fatuous arguments on Pprune, but I have had a bellyful of people complaining about giving information to the enemy - or phrases to the same effect - by saying we should stop talking about bases/sqns/ac types etc etc. I heard the same arguments during GW1 when some folk used to say we should take CNN off the air because of the gratuitous information they were transmitting to all and sundry.
For goodness sake, fellahs, what use is it to Gadaffi's air defence to know that a formation took off from whatever base at whatever time. Even if someone were to tell him what they were loaded with, what use would that be to him? He couldn't possibly work out TOTs, even if he knew the target, as he doesn't know the routing, the AAR plan and all the other details of the mission. Even if he did, if the defence suppression boys have done their job, his people are just going to 'die tensed up'. Furthermore, since much of the weapons being used have a significant stand-off range, I imagine that the attacking aircraft should be able to keep themselves out of any SAM envelopes.
No doubt this post will attract some criticism, but try and keep it emotionless. After all, I think the Libyan regime is well aware that they are being targetted and that RAF Tornados and Typhoons form part of the attacking forces.

[Wander00]

I may be an old fart and now out of touch, but I am amazed that BBC is showing footage of Tornado aircrew which has good enough definition to make individuals identifiable. However, delighted all back safely from first sortie.

[Phileas Fogg]

Wander00,

The BBC, and others, are broadcasting what the MoD provide to them to broadcast!

[TEEEJ]

LTNman wrote,

So the UK forces are having to fly 3000 mile round trips to attack Libya.

A week after it is scrapped our one and only aircraft carrier is now really needed. Nice one David

Even if the carrier had been available you couldn't use the Harriers to deploy Storm Shadow cruise missiles off it? The Harrier was not equipped with it.
The Tornado GR4 is the only UK asset to carry it.

TJ

[TEEEJ]

BritAir wrote

Surely an Aircraft Carrier in the Med would be more 'cost effective' (than 4 Tornados having to be refuelled to fly 3000 miles to drop a few bombs

The Tornado GR4s are deploying the Storm Shadow cruise missile. It has only been cleared for Tornado to carry. It wasn't part of the Harrier GR inventory.

RAF - CASOM/Storm Shadow (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/stormshadow.cfm)

TJ

[Wander00]

PF - Whether the decision not to pixilate faces is BBC's or MoD's, I am still surprised: if MoD, pretty disappointed as well.

[TEEEJ]

Martin the Martian wote

Were these missions the first bombing raids to be launched from the UK since 1945?

Along with Eldorado Canyon in 1986 there were also B-52H missions during 1999 (Yugoslavia) and 2003 (Iraq).

1999 - RAF Fairford.

Profile #05 - Operation Noble Anvil - B-52 & B-1's @ RAF Fairford (http://sharpshooter-maj.com/html/profil05.htm)

2003 - RAF Fairford.

Sentry Aviation News-B-52 at Fairford (UK) (http://www.hangar1.net/trip03-01.html)

Edit. I have since noted that you were seeking info on RAF operations. Please disregard.

TJ

[The Sultan]

How likely is it that a building in MQ's compound was hit. A 4 story building smashed with debris 150 yards away and they magically (at night) come up with pieces of the "missile" with serial numbers and manufacturing date after only 2.5 hours. CNN reports the parts were warm, they must have had thermos nearby.

The Sultan

[SASless]

OPSEC?

Let's just admit it....the RAF is not involved...it is all a grand deception!

The Squadron Crest on the aircraft does not mean that particular Squadron flew the mission???

It was a stage set...where the Lunar Landings were filmed....in the clay pit just off the Motorway north of London.

The French led the way....that tell you something about UK/USA leadership....and even then the Main Nob is "not being targetted"?

We should play "whack a mole" with the big nosed scoundrel....as he is a known supporter of Terrorism is he not?

[TEEEJ]

Captain Radar,

Malta has stated that it will not allow use of its territory for combat operations. Airspace use has been permitted but they wouldn't allow such a deployment.

DI-VE - News Details (http://www.di-ve.com/Default.aspx?ID=72&Action=1&NewsId=81881)

Malta will not be used as a military base to assist in the enforcement of UN resolutions against Libya, Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi said this evening.

In a hastily-announced press conference, Dr Gonzi said that Malta would give clearance to aircraft needing to use its airspace, but would host no military base itself. The country would also continue to assist in humanitarian efforts.

TJ

[TBM-Legend]

Take the George Cross back from Malta and send them a bill for their defence in WW2...

[Modern Elmo]

How likely is it that a building in MQ's compound was hit ...

Very likely, if the USAF or USN really decided to do so. Could you post a link to a picture of the debris? I can't find the CNN video or pic to which you refer.

By the way, I don't expect that Shock and Awe V. 2.0 will make Libya safe for peace, love and democracy.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Take the George Cross back from Malta and send them a bill for their defence in WW2...For using that freedom gained to decide they don't want a piece of dubious action in their own back yard.........yeah, send them the bill, from the sanctuary of Oz :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Easy Street]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/21/article-1368264-0B422DFA00000578-0_634x370.jpg

Splash at least one SA-8!!

[TEEEJ]

The Sultan,

The US has announced that they targeted the building within the compound. Targeted apparently due to if being part of command and control it was revealed on CNN.

Modern Elmo,

The part held by the journalist was labelled 'fin control rotator system actuator'

Some other parts at the following link. Click on the image to open it up.

LIBYA: Journalists survey damage at Kadafi's compound | Babylon & Beyond | Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2011/03/libya-journalists-survey-damage-at-kadafis-compound.html)


TJ

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

So the Libyan Spokesman declared a "ceasefire" from 1900 GMT. If anyone believes that, best of luck. However the media (BBC and Sky) are making noises about them breaking the ceasefire by firing at what they believe may be bombers trying to hurt them. To my mind a ceasefire is to stop attacking the "rebels" but if someone is trying to attack you from the air it's surely reasonable to fire in self defence?
I find myself agreeing with PP..... how embarrassing:O

[TEEEJ]

Old Photo Fanatic,

You witnessed F-15s night flying out of Lakenheath.

TJ

[TBM-Legend]

Malta: many Australian's died "defending" them...

[L J R]

Did the French have a Local / Zulu faff and pushed an hour early..??

[0497]

Pentagon Day-2 briefing incl. a slideshow presentation

Pentagon Channel - Day 2 (21.16 min) (http://player.theplatform.com/ps/player/pds/PVZ32iOKjb?pid=jTOSmiQ0Eoy3jZaNEL5QqKRoylF3hTlS)

@6.15 min - Qaddafi ground forces advancing on the Opposition are legitimate targets

[SiteIII]

another long range sortie conducted. Glad the crews RTB safe and well and as ever professional.

Much respect

Rich

[Pom Pax]

Luqa - Tripoli 195nm = 27 mins

Castle Idris - Tripoli = 27 mins by MT bus
When we still had an Empire & an Air Force!

[charliegolf]

Malta has stated that it will not allow use of its territory for combat operations. Airspace use has been permitted but they wouldn't allow such a deployment.


Have been waiting for this- no surprise there. From personal contacts there, I can say that plenty of Maltese are very pally with Libya, including some AFM officers. Many see (saw) Libya as a fruitful trading partner, beyond the trade already happening.

CG

[Data-Lynx]

http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/456E4A53_5056_A318_A818665E2AA1FB8E.jpg
Amidst this light blue glossy, does anyone know what an "Ellamy" is? Google thinks it is a mis-spelling for an ancient tree-hugger.

[ex-change]

'Sunday's attacks were carried out by 15 U.S. aircraft, including Marine Harrier jets deployed from an assault ship in the Mediterranean'

Flexibility, re-active targeting, and sortie generation... quite a concept.

[draken55]

From Joint Force Maritime Component Commanders Odyssey Dawn Public Affairs

USS KEARSARGE, At Sea (NNS) -- U.S. Navy EA-18G Growlers from coalition bases and U.S. Marine Corps AV-8B Harriers aboard USS Kearsarge (LHD 3) launched March 20, in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn, to enforce U.N. Security Council Resolution (UNSCR) 1973, which is centered on protecting Libyan citizens from further harm.

The Growlers provided electronic warfare support over Libya while Harriers from the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) conducted strikes against Muammar Gaddafi's ground forces and air defenses, joining an international effort to halt an offensive against the Libyan populace.

"Protecting the innocent and conducting combined operations are what we are designed to do," said Col. Mark J. Desens, commanding officer of 26th MEU. "Our forces are doing both as part of the U.S. commitment to protect Libyan citizens."

[dead_pan]

The real endgame is the iran sponsored shiite rebellions underway in Bahrein, Yemen, and even Saudi. The final conflict will be in Saudi Arabia.

I know the rebellions aren't going well in these countries but thats no way to describe them. One usually uses an apostrophe.

Finally, the real reason the yanks were reluctant to commit to the action in Libya - they're saving themselves for the big one.

[VinRouge]

http://kinetic-sound.com/uploads/Its-A-Conspiracy.jpg

[airborne_artist]

Flexibility, re-active targeting, and sortie generation...

That'll never catch on. The whole naval aviation concept is just a conspiracy to scupper the RAF/land-based aircraft, don't you know :E

[just another jocky]

Nope, it is part of an overall capability, a cog in the wheel, a piece of the jigsaw. Not an end in itself. No-one is denying that it has capabilities, but it has huge limitations too. When will you lot stop it, I'm getting bored. :zzz:

[Wensleydale]

Amidst this light blue glossy, does anyone know what an "Ellamy" is?


The single seat fighter pilot arrived in Italy and declared "Where the 'ell am I?". The press then misconstrued and the name has stuck.

[dead_pan]

I thought it was "El Alamein" the first time I heard it. Bizarrely it kind of made sense.

[BEagle]

For this particular operation, land-based aircraft have proved sufficient. Yes, if there'd been a UK carrier with an air group of FA2s and a few GR9s and if it had happened to be in the right place at the right time, it might have helped.....

So the carrier / Harrier argument is irrelevant for this particular scenario.

But next time, there might not be a suitable land base close enough. Would that be sufficient reason to resurrect the Harrier force? I would say no - unless that force were to include the FA2. Otherwise it would probably be an expensive luxury which simply couldn't be justified.

Pity though.

[Not_a_boffin]

The Harrier/CVS argument is pretty much irrelevant for this scenario. However, if it comes to mounting continuous CAP for any sustained period, I suspect the carrier element of it (CdG or Big E) may be far more important.

[Final 3 Greens]

Yes, Ark and a few SHAR could provide a good day time cover with Malta a secure rear area.

FYI Malta is a neutral country, humanitarian activities supported very strongly (as demonstrated recently), but not military action.

Have been waiting for this- no surprise there. From personal contacts there, I can say that plenty of Maltese are very pally with Libya, including some AFM officers. Many see (saw) Libya as a fruitful trading partner, beyond the trade already happening.


This is an insulting statement and the equivalent of saying many Brits are pally with Libya, because of the actions of HMG and the oil companies. Of course, the UK never saw Libya as a fruitful trading partner, did it?

I don't recall Malta releasing a convicted terrorist and I do remember Malta impounding 2 Mirages, even though many Maltese citizens were still awaiting evacuation and could have been held as hostages.

From a Brit living in Malta.

[Octane]

Apparently combat aircraft from about a dozen different countries are enroute to Libya. Will they have the comms gear to talk to each other? And if the rebels and the Colonels mob are using the same aircraft does that mean engagements BVR are out of the question? How do you tell a good MIG from a bad one, or is it as simple as telling the rebels to park their aircraft....

Just curious, thanks.

Octane

[draken55]

I have been astonished at the number of posts on this and other threads that have assumed HNS would be available at Malta. Others posts suggest that we can also simply insert Special Forces into Libya to identify targets when fighting is close to the population we are mandated to protect.

It was a diplomatic success to have Resolution 1973 passed. It was not a mandate for Regime change or to eliminate the Colonel and quite specifically ruled out troops on the ground. We need to be careful not to believe otherwise. We must carry the wider world community on this issue. The mixed messages from the Arab League and dissaproval from both India and Russia on the scale of the initial strikes should be worrying our leaders:uhoh:

[dead_pan]

Where in the UN's charter does it mention it has the right to assasinate a head of state? This feels more and more like an attack on his regime, not an enhanced no-fly zone aimed at stabilising the situation in the country.

[Wrathmonk]

We must carry the wider world community on this issue

Look forward to them getting more engaged then .... particularly the Arab League. If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Or perhaps not.

All talk and no action.

Edited to add, having just seen dead pans post : If media reporting is to be believed the attacks are dismantling the very system being used against the civilians/rebels i.e the army and air force. Command and control is part of that system. Have they targetted other non-military government buildings as yet (which may indicate a more 'regime removal' scenario)?

[dead_pan]

Have they targetted other non-military government buildings

We targeted a "suspected command centre" (or words to that effect) last night. The fact it was in Gaddafi's palace complex was purely coincidental. Seriously though, we're going to have to do a lot better than this if we are to keep our wavering allies on side.

Intriguing that the American B2 crews fired but the Tornado boys did not - did the order come too late, or a different take on what they were seeing? I assume the civilians were the same ones I spotted outside the palace on the BBC news last night...

[draken55]

If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.

Given the make up of most Arab States you would hardly expect a collective response other than to prefer action that protected the civilian population from harm.

Perhaps it's us in the liberal and Democratic West who have the problem. We could not stand aside watching on TV as Colonel Gadaffi used his Armed Forces to "put down a rebellion" or "stop the will of his people being expressed".

Is Libya just another Arab State where the citizens want change? Unlike Tunisia and Egypt where the push for this came from the young unemployed and a growing number of well educated but still unemployed people, where has it emerged from in Libya? It is richer country thanks to oil and judging from the need for migrant workers, poverty and lack of economic opportunity was not such an issue.

I hope the use of Air Power alone to intervene under a UN Mandate has a positive impact but we have no idea if it will. If Gadaffi is toppled by his people we then have no idea what form of Government we might then get in Libya. But then is that our business anyway:hmm:

[Tester_76]

Intriguing that the American B2 crews fired but the Tornado boys did not - did the order come too late, or a different take on what they were seeing? I assume the civilians were the same ones I spotted outside the palace on the BBC news last night...

Or different targets?

[Eclectic]

We targeted a "suspected command centre" (or words to that effect) last night. The fact it was in Gaddafi's palace complex was purely coincidental. Seriously though, we're going to have to do a lot better than this if we are to keep our wavering allies on side.

The Bab al-Aziza complex ( 32°52′30″N 13°10′30″E (http://toolserver.org/%7Egeohack/geohack.php?pagename=Bab_al-Azizia&params=32_52_30_N_13_10_30_E_)) is 6 square km in size and contains many buildings including one of Gaddafi's palaces, an army barracks and the now destroyed command centre.

Intriguing that the American B2 crews fired but the Tornado boys did not - did the order come too late, or a different take on what they were seeing? I assume the civilians were the same ones I spotted outside the palace on the BBC news last night...

On Saturday night the B2s used their stealth to put a large payload of dumb bombs onto a Libyan military airfield whilst the RAF used Storm Shadow cruise missiles for precision attacks which were probably, judging by the priorities on Saturday night, air defence resources.

On Sunday night the emphasis seemed to switch to command and control targets for the precision attacks. Presumably Global Hawk or some other reconnaissance means spotted the civilians so the Tornados aborted. For the B2s there are still airfields for their dumb bomb sorties.

[Eclectic]

There is this strange story going round that one of Gaddafi's sons may be killed:

On March 20, 2011, it was reported by Al Manara Media (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Al_Manara_Media&action=edit&redlink=1) that Khamis al-Gaddafi had died from his injuries sustained when Muhammad Mokhtar Osman allegedly crashed his plane into Bab al-Azizia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab_al-Azizia). However, this had not been confirmed by any other independent media. The crashing of the plane itself had also not been previously reported or confirmed by any other independent media except Al Manara.

[Reinhardt]

Strange how all UK & US Missile strikes on airfields are reported as "UK & US" whereas French Rafale and Mirage fighters attacks blowing up tanks miles around Benghazi while helping to control the Libyan airspace, are reported as "Allied / coalition aircraft" but not "French"....
But quite soon - tomorrow - there will be a real aircraft carrier in the Gulf of Syrte, and then many will understand the real value of those ships ... when they no longer have them (especially with the italians talking today about removing their airfields from the operations....)

[MPN11]

A long time ago, Dom Mintoff was very pally with Gadaffi and Libya [after he kicked the British out in 78[?]. That has long since migrated to a curious combination of 'independence' and 'the Chinese are our good friends'.

Things move on, although when I visited Malta in 09 I'm sure I recognised some of the pot-holes from my last visit in around 83 :p

[Cows getting bigger]

Good to see that a joint RN/RAF op is being media-briefed by an Army PR man. I'm all for 'Joint' but...... :ugh:

[Chris Scott]

Liked his mention of "RAF Norfolk."

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A few pointers on the resolution to answer recent posts.

Please remember our FO have been working very hard on the wording, and also the other diplomats know what it means, no matter what they are saying to the 'soundbite' media

The resolution forbids occupation forces. This does not include SAS etc in laser designation or other non-occupation roles.

The NFZ is only point 6. Point 4 allows ANY action short of occupation to protect civilians. This would include killing the guy giving the orders, i.e. Qaddaffi. Currently this is being deemed politically unwise, but it is allowed (arguably) by the resolution.

Effectively the resolution allows almost anything. Whether certain actions are wise or not is another question.

[Wrathmonk]

Liked his mention of "RAF Norfolk."

To be fair he's not wrong. Apart from a minor RRH in the north of the county all that is left of the RAF in Norfolk is Marham. Be thankful he didn't call it RAF Sandringham ;)

[TEEEJ]

dead_pan,

Apparently the decision was taken to abort the Tornado mission due to the fact that media were broadcasting live from the compound.

BREAKING Sky Sources: Tornado strike on gaddafi compound last night called off because CNN journalist was broadcasting live from the scene

Libya Live: UN Security Council approves no-fly zone - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html)

TJ

[MPN11]

If that turns out to be true, I hope MoD sends them the bill for the fuel.

I believe in freedom of the Press, but they really ought to STFU and keep to the hotel when there's an air campaign going on.

[BOAC]

Hold on! One source says they were interviewing civilians, and had they not been they may well have been targeted. Could be CNN are owed a thank you?

[Lonewolf_50]

draken
"Protecting the innocent and conducting combined operations are what we are designed to do," said Col. Mark J. Desens, commanding officer of 26th MEU. "Our forces are doing both as part of the U.S. commitment to protect Libyan citizens."
The people fighting for Colonal Muhamar are also Libyan citizens ... ;) So how does that fit into this UNSC authorization, I wonder? (His various African mercs aside ...)
It was a diplomatic success to have Resolution 1973 passed. It was not a mandate for Regime change or to eliminate the Colonel and quite specifically ruled out troops on the ground ... The mixed messages from the Arab League and dissaproval from both India and Russia on the scale of the initial strikes should be worrying our leaders
Concur.
Wrathmonk
... particularly the Arab League. If they don't like the 'short sharp shock' treatment, and think they could do better, then perhaps we should stand aside and let them get on with it instead.
Aye.
All talk and no action.
That is the same term as "the Arab League" isn't it? ;)
Perhaps it's us in the liberal and Democratic West who have the problem.
Yep, that is more likely. Well said, that whole post.
The resolution forbids occupation forces. This does not include SAS etc in l-word designation or other non-occupation roles.

With certain assets I used to work with, you don't see a SAS team, nor any sort of SoF team, to do that l-wording stuff on targets. It's been near a decade, and I think that capability has proliferated. ;) No further comment.
The NFZ is only point 6. Point 4 allows ANY action short of occupation to protect civilians. This would include killing the guy giving the orders, i.e. Qaddaffi. Currently this is being deemed politically unwise, but it is allowed (arguably) by the resolution.
Aye, the remit is rather broad, but How Does One Define Civilian, or Libyan Citizen, in this case? The two terms are mixed and matched quite a bit in the UNSCRs. (A more detailed UNSCR critique in my JB inputs ...)
Effectively the resolution allows almost anything. Whether certain actions are wise or not is another question.
Indeed. As usual, it's a mess. When all of the things stop blowing up, the finger pointing and pissing contests will become World Class for a few weeks.

Darned politicians, could screw up a wet dream.

(I've made a more detailed critique in JB thread regarding this topic, I see this is more of an operationally oriented thread.)

For MPN11:

I agree, in my heart, but the media are part of the environment, whether we like it or not. :mad:

[2Planks]

Cows Get Bigger

Fear not: at the latest Monastery briefing the good Major General was escorted by AOC 2 Gp and a RN Captain to help him with geography and difficult words;)

[gravity victim]

Sky News breaking news rolling headlines late last night referred to 'The ****e House' - only corrected after several minutes. Mis-keying or mischief I wonder?

[MPN11]

Re aborted GR4 sortie ... Fox News just reporting that a CNN crew were invited to the compound to view results, which led to the cnx mission. Smart move by The Duck.

I think the Meeja might learn from the consequences ... [please].

Tonight's Fox coverage is basically a picture of a bare tree, viewed from their hotel room, which had some AAA in the background a while back. :ooh:

[dazjs]

Hope Sky got youtubed

[CargoOne]

A question from civilian side of aviation: why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase? Does it have any unique capabilities necessary for the mission in question or it is rather a demonstration of expensive technologies?

A 25-hrs mission to a country which air defence level is somewhere on a border between 2nd and 3rd world countries, with targets located just on the border of 100% secured Mediterrianian airspace?

[Final 3 Greens]

A long time ago, Dom Mintoff was very pally with Gadaffi and Libya [after he kicked the British out in 78[?]. That has long since migrated to a curious combination of 'independence' and 'the Chinese are our good friends'.


Independence was in 1964.

The last British forces withdrew in 1979.

Malta is a fully integrated EU member, Schenhgen signatory and a modern democracy.

I wish little Englanders like you would stop talking bollocks, but seeing as your personal title is "In the past, because it's nicer", you probably think that the UK is the centre of the world and little ex colonies could not possibly get their act together :ugh:

[draken55]

Cargo One

"why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase?"

And stand off submarine and Tornado launched cruise missiles. The continued use of such weapons could well raise great concern and put at risk UN support particulary from the Arab World and those in the Security Council who chose to abstain from Resolution 1973.

However, we do now seem to be in the position to operate the NFZ without such attacks.

[TBM-Legend]

CargoOne: War is not played on a level playing field. The B-2 offers amazing stealth together with very precision weapons.

[francophile69]

Mintoff was ok..he used to wave to us as we waited for the school bus in Marsaxlokk, as he swept by in his convoy of cars full of bodyguards!:p

[Easy Street]

"why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase?"

And stand off submarine and Tornado launched cruise missiles. The continued use of such weapons could well raise great concern and put at risk UN support particulary from the Arab World and those in the Security Council who chose to abstain from Resolution 1973.



Of course, you chaps would have been at the front of the queue to conduct SEAD missions, using direct line-of-sight weapons from a non-stealth platform, just to satisfy a small bunch of hand-wringers at home, I suppose? Bear in mind that the early French missions were conducted around Benghazi, where the air defences are presumably under rebel control.

Meanwhile, it looks like the IADS-denial phase is drawing to a close...

MoD stating that Typhoon has flown its first combat missions over Libya - congrats chaps! Shame there's nothing left to shoot though...

Link (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html) (Telegraph Live at 21:03)

The statement also says that Tornado GR4s landed at Gioia after Monday's mission; the Telegraph's photo below shows a GR4 departing Marham loaded with a Litening pod, 2 x PW4 and a Brimstone launcher (ie the same fit as used on HERRICK) with 2250l tanks and an ECM pod.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01853/Tornado2_1853482c.jpg

[draken55]

TBM

This is action to enforce a UN Resolution by protecting the civilian population of a country from its own leaders and armed forces.

Having degraded Libyan AD we don't need the B-2 or much of the other really hi-tech stuff used initially. Doing so just runs the risk that our response is seen by some as being out of proportion and so could risk the continued political consensus needed to get this job done.

[draken55]

It's not the hand ringers at home but the leaders of India, China and Russia that should concern you. All have the means to propose a new UN Resolution to "clarify" the Mandate. And what then if the West has to veto that:=

[dead_pan]

Fox News just reporting that a CNN crew were invited to the compound to view results, which led to the cnx mission


Hang on, are you saying CNN were invited there to view the results of the attack before the attack took place, or do you mean a previous attack? Are we 'bouncing rubble' already, to quote Colin Powell?

And here's me thinking the Tornado crew were alerted by some high-flying Predator, spy satellite or SF team.

So the planners were watching CNN but not the BBC, otherwise they would have known there were civilian human shield camping out within 50 metres of the suspected command bunker which was struck. Or were they confident they could take the shot?

[TEEEJ]

Ministry of Defence have just revealed that RAF Typhoons have completed their first combat mission over Libya. Well done all!

Op Ellamy webpage.

RAF - Libya - Op ELLAMY (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/Libya-OpELLAMY.cfm)

TJ

[CargoOne]

Easy Street

Of course, you chaps would have been at the front of the queue to conduct SEAD missions, using direct line-of-sight weapons from a non-stealth platform, just to satisfy a small bunch of hand-wringers at home, I suppose?


I really hope that current NATO equipment range is not a choise between B2 and Enola Gay. Because if bombing of Tripoli can only be done safely by B2, what we all gonna do in case of a war with capable and equipped enemy like country X or country Y? There are only 20-something B2s and they need a ground time of a week after each flight - at least that's what jornos telling us.

If I would be US tax payer I would be seriously worried about it from the other perspective too.

When you buy a new Prius it is usually delivered by sea, while no doubt C17 can pick it up from the factory and do an airdrop at your backyard...

And by the way, as correctly noted by another poster, using B2 makes a lot of mixed feelings in countries who were initially supportive for the action.

[TEEEJ]

Easy Street wrote

Shame there's nothing left to shoot though...

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post of the Typhoon announcement. I can't see Libya launching any fixed wing, but they always have the option of helicopters. That is if they can convince aircrew to get them airborne!

TJ

[Easy Street]

CargoOne, draken55,

How ridiculous would we have looked if we had tried to take out the IADS using "legacy" methods in order to be "sporting", and lost aircraft or missed the targets due to evasive action? War is not supposed to be fair and we have a duty to minimise the risk to our own forces. Even old SAMs such as SA-2 and SA-6 have a significant capability - it's very easy for you to sit at your keyboard and pontificate, a very different thing to commit your aircraft inside the no-escape zone around each site to look for civilians and drop a bomb...

I think it's pretty clear that the B-2, TLAM and Storm Shadow phase is drawing to a close, so it's a dead argument, anyway. Roll on the CAPs, reconnaissance, overwatch, response options and CAS.

Just a thought - what if CAS in support of civilians became known doctrinally as CivCAS?!? Could make for some confusing press statements. Or if there was no JTAC there, it would be CivECAS. (I'll get my coat).

[dead_pan]

An American military official categorically stated today that the rebels would not be supported, so CAS is definitely off your list (at least for the time being).

[draken55]

I think it's pretty clear that the B-2, TLAM and Storm Shadow phase is drawing to a close.

Which was the point I made in my posts when stating that the continued use of stand off weapons would just be counter productive!

The major risk to UN Air Power so far was on Saturday afternoon in stopping the Colonel's armoured columns near Bengazi. We can all speculate about SEAD and who provided it or if the Rebels were able to confirm they had control of AD in the immediate area. Facts are the advance was stopped and the population protected in line with 1973. We then used the works that night to attack his AD and Command and Control to allow the NFZ to commence.

It's now a case of what happens next and in this respect we need to maintain the broad political support that allowed 1973 to be passed in the first place.

[BandAide]

I think the job is largely done as far as the resolution provides. Now an AWACS and cap can cover.

Normally I'm rather hawkish, but I don't like the trend with Arab League backstabbing, press hostility, leadership and command mistakes (announcing no boots), and doubts about Libyan opposition loyalties.

It's time to end this and let Libyans and Arabs work it out.

[Easy Street]

the rebels would not be supported, so CAS is definitely off your list


You are correct, it would not be CAS as there are no friendly ground forces involved. However, the resolution does allow support to civilians - so if a tank was sat there shelling a town, it could be engaged under the current mandate. That was the intent behind my tongue-in-cheek definition of CivECAS. Hopefully someone is thinking about the ROE implications for the upcoming days...

[0497]

CargoOne,

A question from civilian side of aviation: why coalition needed to use B2s from its US homebase? Does it have any unique capabilities necessary for the mission in question or it is rather a demonstration of expensive technologies?



Three B-2s dropping 45 2000lbs JDAMS in a single pass without being seen is pretty unique. Between that and the Tomahawks, they're a low risk door kicking strategy.

[BandAide]

It's also a good training exercise for the units involved. As will be building and running the ATO a good training experience for the French and Brits after the handoff.

It's one thing to know you could run a single sortie from Kansas City to Tripoli and back and another thing to actually do it.

[0497]

Reinhardt,

Strange how all UK & US Missile strikes on airfields are reported as "UK & US" whereas French Rafale and Mirage fighters attacks blowing up tanks miles around Benghazi while helping to control the Libyan airspace, are reported as "Allied / coalition aircraft" but not "French"....
But quite soon - tomorrow - there will be a real aircraft carrier in the Gulf of Syrte, and then many will understand the real value of those ships ...

USMC Harriers were involved: Interview with Harrier pilot : NPR (http://www.npr.org/2011/03/21/134726240/No-Fly-Zone-Enforcer)

[moggiee]

Apologies if someone else has mentioned this but.................... isn't it a touch unfortunate that the UN resolution that authorised this action carries the number 1973?

Yom Kippur War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War)

[AR1]

I immediately thought of the other connection 'Plant a tree in '73'

Plant A Tree In '73 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_A_Tree_In_%2773)

[Whenurhappy]

Ah yes, I saw the significance of the numbering of UNSCR 1973, but didn't bother to comment, 'cos the yoof of today have no interest in the lessons from history....

[BBOWFIGHTER]

A particular tabloid was, a couple of days ago, saying that it would all be "over in 48hrs." We knew of course that it wouldn't. But with Gen. Richards being "slapped down" by No. 10 in regard to taking out Gadaffi there is need to wonder what will happen next. Could it possibly the case that when we have done the job we just stop and let the rebels have the country. Its absurd isn't it. But it would also mean that Gadaffi cannot be allowed to stay or run the country so.............what next? President Obama has, apparently 'scaled down' the operations so what then? Is it turning to can of worms?

Who gets Gadaffi off his throne? I'd take a bet that Gen Richards has seen the distinct possibility that we will have to have him gone - preferably dead. We cannot leave it now, the Colonel's time in Libya has to be ended one way or another. There is no solution in sight so I guess its nine skittles for the time being but with more and more strikes. ONE of them has to finish his nibs there and then.

A politician's life is not always easy but I wouldn't want to be one now.

Having said all that it does my old heart good to see our aircraft showing that maybe the FOX will have to do what Gen.Dannett says - "reverse" the mil cuts. We are going to be doing this kind of action again and again!

[dakkg651]

Torygraph this morning describing the Typhoon.

"It is so fast that it can comfortably escape from any enemy missile fired at it".

"Just one aircraft can carry the same weapons load as two of the old Jaguar ground attack bombers and one Tornado intercepter".

Wow!

[just another jocky]

As long as Scotty remembered to pack the Dilithium Crystals! :}

[Load Toad]

Rumour of 1x US aircraft crashed but crew safe, No further details. This was via Rob Crilly on T. Wit.ter

[XV208 SNOOPY]

Any one hear the interview on the Today Program this morning just before 7 about the cost of OP ELLAMY? Almost as a throw away comment at the end of the interview it alleged that there was a discussion at MoD about the costs of both operating from UK and Italy being prohibitive. As a result it was alleged that some in MoD looked very hard at the feasibility of dragging the GR9s out of their hangers at Cott and asking the RN if the one remaining flat top could be put to sea? The justification being that this option would come at a much reduced cost to HM Treasury than host nation support or staging from UK. (Italy wavering on offering bases dependent on NATO taking control may also have been a factor???) However, the adverse reaction of Downing Street to such a suggestion was seen as a show stopper, as it made the assumptions of SDSR worthless.

This story was backed up by some spotters claiming to have seen GR9s on the pan being engine tested (routine maintanace - coincidence??) Some one may have put 1+1=5 ?

However, on a serious note, before spending round 11/12, 12/13 is announced, how much head scratching and conversations in quiet corners are going on between the service chiefs and ministers about has SDSR perhaps gone too far...........

[dead_pan]

Hopefully someone is thinking about the ROE


Err, I think they probably are. I'm sure they will surpass anything seen previously in terms of their byzantine complexity.

Maybe someone should invent a sofware programme like Prince 2 to take a UN resolution and turn it into RoE. They'd make a fortune.

[BOAC]

asking the RN if the one remaining flat top could be put to sea?- well, it would not be MUCH of a diversion from Turkey.............................

[ORAC]

Aircraft down in Libya now being reported as an F-15E, crew reported as safe in hands of rebels.

[draken55]

Only if the need to maintain the NFZ stretches way into the future might it make some sense for HMG to make even a partial climb down over SDSR by re-activating Harriers, perhaps to fly from HMS Illustrious. More likely we would offer Lusty to relieve the USS Kearsage or other carriers as a base from which to operate Spanish/Italian/USMC Harriers. The latter would also depend on how long the US wants to remain involved.

Anyway, we all know that is not going to happen:E

Interesting aside now is that Joe Public is starting to ask where all the money has been found to take on this additional military commitment. And all this taking place just before the Budget:oh:

[Lukeafb1]

Watching BBC Television News just now:

Reporter outside Italian airfield with RAF Eurofighters in background taxiing to take off.

Reporter - blah, blah, blah.

Eurofighters take off.

More blah, blah, blah.

Reporter stops burbling and looks off into the distance, a confused look on his countenance.

"Oh, they're coming back to land (orders cameraman to pan left for this unheard of event)"

The 4 Eurofighters, nose up, scream over the runway, full afterburners and head away to wherever.

Reporter, blah, blah, blah.

The mind boggles as to this professional insight!!!! :ugh::ugh:

[dead_pan]

Aircraft down in Libya now being reported as an F-15E, crew reported as safe in hands of rebels.


Pics on the Telegraph web site. And before anyone says, no, it definitely won't buff out.

BTW did my ears deceive me this morning, or did I hear that there was an airstrike on a radar installation in Beghazi last night? That will take some explainin'

[Madbob]

With confirmation of the F15 E having crashed behind enemy lines, just remind me what CSAR assets the UK have to rescue downed aircrew.:ugh:

OK, I know the answer, I'll get my coat.....

MB

[L J R]

So the Typhoons are doing Libya, Q, and Falklands....will they also get burnt out like the Harrier mates for their role in the 'stan??

[draken55]

"what CSAR assets the UK have to rescue downed aircrew".

I think you know the answer but for others, the first pic from this link will shed some light:ouch:

Navy News Service - Eye on the Fleet: Aircraft Carriers Photo Gallery (http://www.navy.mil/view_gallery.asp?category_id=10)

[Wrathmonk]

remind me what CSAR assets the UK have

I can't remember when we ever had a formalised CSAR asset. Lots of "we can do it as a secondary or ad-hoc role" but never had a formal CSAR unit similar to that found in the USAF as far as I can recall.

will they also get burnt out like the Harrier mates

Maybe, maybe not. But like the Harrier a lot of other training may have to take a back burner .... hopefully the work on the ground attack side of the aircrafts development won't slide to the right (or indeed the money be spent elsewhere!).

[Lonewolf_50]

CargoOne:And by the way, as correctly noted by another poster, using B2 makes a lot of mixed feelings in countries who were initially supportive for the action.
Actually, it seems to me that telling anyone we used the B-2 is a stupid thing to do. B-2 is supposed to be a stealthy attack platform.
What you do is use it, and don't tell anyone you did, since it is 'invisible' ... What I see coming out is just more stupid, OPSEC vioating nonsense by the brass and pols, standard issue since Gulf War / Desert Storm.
BandAide.

Normally I'm rather hawkish, but I don't like the trend with Arab League backstabbing, press hostility, leadership and command mistakes (announcing no boots), and doubts about Libyan opposition loyalties.
It's time to end this and let Libyans and Arabs work it out.


We could have let them work it out without dropping a single munition.

Torygraph this morning describing the Typhoon.
"It is so fast that it can comfortably escape from any enemy missile fired at it".

Good lord, will the journos just stop with the silliness?
dead pan, in re RoE

Err, I think they probably are. I'm sure they will surpass anything seen previously in terms of their byzantine complexity.
Maybe someone should invent a sofware programme like Prince 2 to take a UN resolution and turn it into RoE. They'd make a fortune.


Well said!

As I understand the media report, a Strike Eagle (F-15E) had a problem at high altitude, crew ejected, and got separated by X distance. One guy recovered, another "in the process of recovery" somewhere. CSAR units were what? HH-60G? MH-53? Osprey? Will be interesting to hear how that works out.

"Mechanical Malfunction" induced ejection???

Hmmm, that's odd, twin engine aircraft ... that too will be interesting to hear about.

[BOAC]

I would not be surprised if Ivan did not launch, say, a pair of Bears every 6 hours down the Iceland/Faroes to see how our remaining IAF copes:mad:

[green granite]

I would not be surprised if Ivan did not launch, say, a pair of Bears every 6 hours down the Iceland/Faroes to see how our remaining IAF copes

I'm sure the CAS has already slipped them a backhander to do exactly that. :E

[dead_pan]

remind me what CSAR assets the UK have

Aircrew have been issued with a tea towel for disguise and the cab fare to Benghazi.

[VinRouge]

I had heard it was only a cash advance. Reciepted claims only via JPA.

[outhouse]

Just looking at Sky News and the usual pontification by the experts interesting though I guess the old saying goes if you can't do it then advise on it.
Very unfortunate re the F15 but the good thing is that the crew seem safe, well with friends we hope. Hopefully a trip out soon, seems they are out now.

that brings to mind the long mission segments from the UK, maybe we have a few assets along the Med route with the odd Sea king in case. Or a deployment of CHC OR Bristow ASR S 92 or AW139.

Also as the US hand over to others in Europe to command the master plan, it could develop into a plan by committee, so looks stuffed to me. But as the French seem rather annoyed just now they could take a lead.*

Sorry but it may be looking messy and less than a agreeable way forward, seems I have seen this before and ended up with my arse in a sling.

[Willard Whyte]

I had heard it was only a cash advance. Reciepted claims only via JPA.

Maybe that's why we launch out of the UK, no need to issue any euros etc.

[outhouse]

Still looking at Sky and viewing Qatar TV and Aljazera news. Interesting stuff.
Maybe once all the heavy stuff is completed and any opposition from ground and air has been sorted, the best option could be to hand over to the Arab league to police and complete the operation.
Yes I know they would be unable to decide the seating plan round the table, but it would prevent a rather long and less than nice political event and allow us to hold the moral high ground.:ok:

[0497]

CSAR units were what? HH-60G? MH-53? Osprey? Will be interesting to hear how that works out.



There are some USAF HH-60G Pave Hawks from RAF Lakenheath on an amphib offshore: Libya: coalition naval forces gather in Mediterranean - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8396077/Libya-coalition-naval-forces-gather-in-Mediterranean.html)

Also plenty of USN and USMC helicopters.

[diginagain]

...... the moral high ground.
I got the impression that this was safely in the hands of Australian politicians.

[TBM-Legend]

yes I'm sure KRudd and Ju-Liar will preach to the assembled crowd [and of course do nothing else]...:}

[outhouse]

USS KEARSARGE operation retrieved the F 15 crew. :ok:

[Chris Scott]

Quote from Lonewolf 50:

"As I understand the media report, a Strike Eagle (F-15E) had a problem at high altitude, crew ejected..."

From the two photos published by the Telegraph, have to opine that the main wreckage area is very concentrated, and the main part of the fuselage and centre-section, at least, look to have been substantially intact after impact - prior to the fire. Could this have been a forced landing, or an attempt at one?

[500N]

"...... the moral high ground."

"I got the impression that this was safely in the hands of Australian politicians."


As TBM said.

They like to think that but I am afraid they are just like every other pollie around the world. Full of hot air.


Good to hear the crew of the F15 are safe. If it crashed Monday as they said, good to see the US kept that quiet for a while.

.

[0497]

Pilots retrieved by USMC MV22 Osprey

[outhouse]

Looking at the coverage of the site of the F15 it's compact mainly concentrated. After viewing a snap of an event of many years ago, when we had a unrecoverable flat spin and ejected in this case at around 6,000 ft it looked similar. It would be interesting to see the position of canopy and seats as in my case it was a rough line away from the main wreckage. But a little closer than we would have liked to the main wreck.*:ok:

[dead_pan]

Could this have been a forced landing, or an attempt at one?

The BBC said it crashed close to a rebel-held airfield, which could support this theory.

It the rebels hadn't found the wreckage, I wonder how long it would have been before the coalition admitted that they'd lost an aircraft, even after the crew had been recovered?

[TEEEJ]

BOAC wrote,

I would not be surprised if Ivan did not launch, say, a pair of Bears every 6 hours down the Iceland/Faroes to see how our remaining IAF copes

The Russians mounted increased flights during Kosovo in 1999. There will be no problem if they do attempt to swamp UK QRA. If push comes to shove then the F-15Cs at RAF Lakenheath could assist?

TJ

[Been Accounting]

... and the cab fare to Benghazi.

Taxi to Tobruk perhaps?

[outhouse]

I am sure that all crews are suitably supplied with the usual gold coins and US dollars to bribe if needed, also the standard gooli chit as was the norm in operations over the Yemen in the 60s. Still have mine in reserve if needed.:ok:

[AR1]

It the rebels hadn't found the wreckage, I wonder how long it would have been before the coalition admitted that they'd lost an aircraft, even after the crew had been recovered?

The point is what?

This is not some *****g video game you know.

[500N]

"It the rebels hadn't found the wreckage, I wonder how long it would have been before the coalition admitted that they'd lost an aircraft, even after the crew had been recovered?"

Why admit anything ?

If no one had found the wreckage, does it matter as long as the crew are safe ?

[TEEEJ]

dead pan wrote,


It the rebels hadn't found the wreckage, I wonder how long it would have been before the coalition admitted that they'd lost an aircraft, even after the crew had been recovered?

Why, are you into conspiracy theories? Once the crew is rescued that is it and the info is released to the media. The Yugoslavs and Russians tried to push that propaganda tactic during Allied Force in 1999.

In fact some Serb military are still doing it to this day. The Serb Commander, Lt. Col. Djordje Anicic, of the 250th Missile Brigade still thinks that he shot down B-2 Spirit of Missouri, serial 88-0329, and that it crashed and was covered up by NATO.

He still makes this claim even though that B-2 airframe is covered by START treaty and accountable under verification procedures. That would mean that the Russians have been sitting on the information since 1999.

Lt. Col. Djordje Anicic in interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Qi1z4vh79A

They even have to make sure the Spirit of Missouri is noted displaying at airshows in order to keep the ruse going? :)

JetPhotos.Net Aviation Photos-Registration Search: 88-0329 (http://jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?regsearch=88-0329)

13th Bomb Squadron Re-activated on 23 September 2005 (http://www.ozatwar.com/usaaf/13threactivated.htm)

TJ

[outhouse]

Unfortunately with the coverage from the news and the general*
Feeling from the great unwashed, the actual danger and risk is lost. In general maybe Mr. Public looks at this as a video game.**

[dead_pan]

This is not some *****g video game you know.

Quite.


Why admit anything ?


Err, I for one would like to be told how it is going, warts and all. Whilst I fully recognise the need for opsec, I get the clear impression this too often strays into 'news management'.

[airsound]

The US says they ejected.
F-15E Incident In Libya; Crew Recovered http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif
(Source: US Air Force; issued March 22, 2011)

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif http://www.defense-aerospace.com/images/spacer.gif USS MOUNT WHITNEY, Mediterranean Sea --- Two crew members ejected from their U.S. Air Force F-15E Strike Eagle when the aircraft experienced equipment malfunction over northeast, Libya, March 21, at approximately 10:30 p.m. CET.

Both crew members ejected and are safe.

The aircraft, based out of Royal Air Force Lakenheath, England, was flying out of Aviano Air Base in support of Operation Odyssey Dawn at the time of the incident.

The cause of the incident is under investigation.

The identities will be released after the next of kin have been notified. airsound

[Phil_R]

Is the F-15 unusually large for a fast jet, or are the people clambering all over it midgets?

I'm 6'4" and I had to duck to get under the Sidewinder rail on a Tornado.

[dead_pan]

It is a big old beastie - longer than a B2, I recall.

Any sign of the Qataris yet? Or have they stopped off in Beirut for some R+R?

Editted to add: should read 'slightly shorter than a B2'

[TEEEJ]

Chris Scott wrote,

From the two photos published by the Telegraph, have to opine that the main wreckage area is very concentrated, and the main part of the fuselage and centre-section, at least, look to have been substantially intact after impact - prior to the fire. Could this have been a forced landing, or an attempt at one?

You will be surprised how much wreckage remains after a crash from height. These two Yugoslav MiG-29s were shot down by USAF F-15s over Bosnia in 1999. The audio of the engagement was recorded by radio enthusiasts with the height recorded around 20,000 feet. The Pilot of this aircraft recounted that he ejected immediately after being hit by an AMRAAM.

http://img165.echo.cx/img165/9459/mig29bosnia58bl.jpg

http://img165.echo.cx/img165/4582/mig29bosnia45nb.jpg

http://www.valka.cz/html_images/9_2006/image1159115811.jpg

Video and account of the rescue of the two crew of the F-15E.

US jet crashes in Libya: airman would not have known if he approached friend or foe - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8397953/US-jet-crashes-in-Libya-airman-would-not-have-known-if-he-approached-friend-or-foe.html)

After ejection there is also the possibility that the aircraft can continue to fly. The following link details how an F-106 pilot ejected at 15,000 feet during a spin. The aircraft made a landing on its belly, was recovered and put back into service.

F-106 Delta Dart - 58-0787 Pilotless Landing (http://www.f-106deltadart.com/71fis_PilotlessLanding_580787.htm)

TJ

[Chris Scott]

outhouse,

Having seen this video of the wreckage:

Libya: US fighter jet crash lands in field near Benghazi - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8397587/Libya-US-fighter-jet-crash-lands-in-field-near-Benghazi.html)

I take your point about the possibility of high V/S, low IAS at impact.


[EDIT] PS:

TEEEJ, We crossed in the post. Interesting pics, thanks.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

The Yugoslavs and Russians tried to push that propaganda tactic during Allied Force in 1999.

point of view is different.

It is very complicated to claim shot downs when you have 10 milions of citizens below your bombers.

the lesson had been learnt on very hard way.

When adequate tape was prepared for publishing,"someone" put a missile throug building killing 16 inocent ,civil,people.

Signature was : "If you still have tapes we have even more efficient bombs!"

Nobody is so stupid to release too much. especially when you have a war over your own territory. And nobody to protect a minimum of your human rights.

And if you ask me for my very own personal opinion , I staed a million times so far.
Serbian communist regime with Milosevic on the top had been working for Americans, very effectivelly, for ages. Russian just gives a small help to communist regime for a few percent tip. :mad:

With other words,bussines as ussual. :yuk:

Now situaton with Gadafi is very simmilar.
At the end of the day, Owners of oil capital and defense industry will have more, militar personel a few leaves more, and Libia will have a significant number of citizens, less.
Unfortunatelly,....:{

[airsound]

It is a big old beastie - longer than a B2, I recall.

F-15E span is a bit smaller than a GR-4 with wings forward - 42ft 10in as opposed to 46ft. But F-15E is longer - 63ft 9in as opposed to 55ft.

B-2 is 172ft span, 69ft long.

airsound

[dead_pan]

airsound - you've selectively editted my post to make me appear foolish, you cad. I'll let you off just this once.

[airsound]

Sorry dp - it's my sad commentator/anorak side coming out. I'll try not let it happen again.

airsound

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Interesting pix Teej, thanks.
Wasn't there a Danish hunter where the pilot banged out short finals and the aircraft landed itself ? - must have been an embarrassing debrief.

[TEEEJ]

Swedish Gripen fighters on Libya standby

The armed forces have informed the government that we are able to deploy six to eight aircraft. At the moment they are on a ten day standby, so it wouldn’t take longer than that,” Therese Fagerstedt of the Swedish Armed Forces information department told news agency TT.

Swedish Gripen fighters on Libya standby - The Local (http://www.thelocal.se/32718/20110321/)

TJ

[dead_pan]

So seems a few things to confirm just now


You missed meeting with publicity agent, agreeing book contract, serialisation and movie rights, attending medal award ceremonies, visiting Martin Baker to collect tie, interview on Good Morning America, and after all that, the debrief, board of inquiry etc. A lot of stuff to be sorted, you're right.

Still, we'll be able to read exactly what happened on Wikileaks in a few days time.

[outhouse]

Thanks just seemed a little familiar, would be interesting to have access to the ATR or CVR, still maybe it will turn up.
Thanks dead-pan i gave up with the list. Sadly it may be closer to truth than we may think.:confused:

[TEEEJ]

SINGAPURCANAC wrote,

When adequate tape was prepared for publishing,"someone" put a missile throug building killing 16 inocent ,civil,people.

Signature was : "If you still have tapes we have even more efficient bombs!"

Are you into conspiracy theories much? You must have lapped up Venik and his NATO losses propaganda at the time?

The Yugoslav Ministry of Information tried that tactic with claims of taped footage of NATO hidden losses and secret deals. They even doctored the post combat reports of MiG-29 Pilots in order to claim NATO air-to-air losses.

Think about it if they had the video tapes they also had the wreckage to present as evidence? The Serbs even dragged out old audio tapes of a NATO aircraft being shot down and clamed that it was evidence of NATO hiding losses.

One of these was presented as evidence at a NATO briefing conference. Nothing to do with 1999, but actually from the shoot down of a Sea Harrier over Bosnia in 1994. It was a good propaganda attempt, but didn't pass the BS test.

After the conflict Bojan Bugarcic, an advisor to Milosevic, gave an interview on the subject of that propaganda campaign.

"He said that, throughout the war, a tremendous, and extremely effective, propaganda campaign had been mounted by the Serbian military. The aim was to keep the populace believing their forces were mounting a spirited defence. "Using the state broadcaster, unofficial 'Russian intelligence' web pages and Army communiqués, the deception had been so successful that many people were fooled.

My 22-year-old translator, Vlada Kopric, was one example. While he vehemently denounced the government-controlled RTS media network as spouting 'pure lies,' his explorations on the Internet had led him to the bogus Russian intelligence site. As a result, up until my November interview with Bugarcic, Vlada had truly believed that the Serbian military had successfully shot down 78 NATO aircraft. "He was devastated when he learned the truth."


That truth in relation to manned aircraft losses is currently on show in the Belgrade Aviation Museum. The wrecks of the F-117A and F-16CG are on show.

You can get a warm rosey glow re-reading the drivel pushed out at the time at the following link.

NATO Losses Revisited (May 4, 2000) (http://www.truthinmedia.org/Bulletins2000/tim2000-5-1.html)

Even PPRuNe got a mention! It was claimed to be a "secret site" :)

In the February 13 article in The Observer, based on first-hand information posted by RAF pilots and technicians at an Internet discussion group and entitled Pilots Vent Fury at RAF on Web, Antony Barnet writes "Pilots currently serving in the Gulf, and others recently back from Kosovo, are so angry about defective equipment and low morale they are flooding the secret site with complaints aimed at senior officers." [B]The "secret" site is the PPRuNe message board for military pilots. I've spent several days at that site fishing for information until that Sherlock from The Observer scared everyone away with his article.


TJ

[outhouse]

Aljazeera news reporting indecision and lack of agreement re the way forward. Seems the ground suppression has cooled off and showed heavy bombardment from government assets.*
Guess the original French attack and continuation of yesterday has cooled off.

[4mastacker]

After viewing a snap of an event of many years ago, when we had a unrecoverable flat spin and ejected in this case at around 6,000 ft it looked similar. It would be interesting to see the position of canopy and seats as in my case it was a rough line away from the main wreckage. But a little closer than we would have liked to the main wreck.XN772 at Diepholz? Did crash guard on that one and yes, the canopy was bit close.

[MPN11]

According to GRU information, NATO lost... over 1,000 cruise missiles. :(

I'd like to think NATO lost all of them as they hit their targets! :cool:


Are there any credible [public/publishable] stats on in-flight losses over the years, in so many bloody wars?

[Madbob]

outhouse, forgive the thread drift but here's a pic of your former mount in happier times.

Lightning F2/F2A XN772 (http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/xn772.html)

Note canopy still in place!

MB

[TEEEJ]

Sky News showing footage of Qatari Mirage 2000s landing in Crete.

TJ

[just another jocky]

The news banner mentioned that earlier today, and that the Saudis were close to deploying ac. Yikes!

[outhouse]

The Qatari Airforce are very professional and competent well trained and Will do the needfull when asked. well done for stepping up to the plate and safe ops.

[MPN11]

I'm just very grateful that Arab Nations are meeting the challenge.

It can't be easy for them, given the religious dimension and abandonment of the 'Arab brother' mind-set. Perhaps this might also influence, down the line, their own ways of thinking about their own people?

May your [insert deity here] be with you all.

[lomapaseo]

Sihnce we're having a light hearted go at tyhe F15 wreckage site

Yes it does look like a flat impact.

What's of surprise to me is the lack of engines in the pictures (ignoring the tail pipe). Also the verticals look a tad shabby for a flat impact alone.

So what were the other aircraft doing in the mission?

[MPN11]

So what were the other aircraft doing in the mission?

The Leader was targeting [insert target here].
No 2 was tasked to attack [insert target here].
No 3 was backup for Leader.
No 4 was backup for [insert target here].

Hope that helps ... :cool:

[dead_pan]

lack of engines in the pictures


Last seen on the back of a flat-bed heading towards Benghazi. They'll probably be on eBay tonight.

[lomapaseo]

Last seen on the back of a flat-bed heading towards Benghazi. They'll probably be on eBay tonight

Thanks

what E-bay category should I search under to place a bid ?

[Halton Brat]

Just watching Sky news @ 1900Z, & saw footage of F15E wreckage at crash site. In what seemed to be the fuselage centre section, my laser-like vision spotted a control-type rod. This rod was protruding from a transverse bulkhead, into a clear void area fwd of the bulkhead. I am jolly sure that rod eye-end & bearing assy at the fwd end of the rod had a nut & bolt through it, but there was nothing connected to the rod eye-end.

It looked exactly as though a disconnection of the rod had taken place at this eye-end, and the nut & bolt had been popped back into the disconnected eye-end in order not to be misplaced during some maintenance activity involving this rod. However, no reconnection fwd of this point seemed to have been made?

Before the Hounds of Hell descend on me from Pprune & cast cistercians upon my veracity, parentage & eyesight, I would respectfully point out that:

1. I haven't had a drink yet.

2. I have been a fully paid-up Rigger for 40yrs (& still at it).

3. It was a short screen shot on Sky.

4. I know the F15 is a fly-by-wire jet.

I'll watch it again later. Perhaps I'll start drafting my withdrawal & apology now, just in case. Do please check the footage yourself: comments on the back of a £50 note please.

[MPN11]

Profound, but perhaps worthy of its own thread ... unless the BoI wants to keep that schtumm despite the imagery on the Web ;)


There's a War on, you know :cool:

[BOAC]

Why oh why do the yanks have to go in with guns blazing for yet another blue on blue? Are they not advanced enough to have pilot radios? We had those in 1980. Now 2011. It is indeed generous of the 'rebels' to apparently harbour no grudge, but it may be they will be a little reticent to rescue anyone actually from any wreckage for fear of being hosed willy nilly.:mad:

[MPN11]

Why oh why do the yanks have to go in with guns blazing for yet another blue on blue?

Sorry, but I'm missing something here. Where the Blue on Blue?

Are you talking about 'casualties' paraded by The Duck?

[airsound]

That's a very sharp observation, Mr Brat. I see exactly what you mean from the video.

However, from a later part of the estimable Lindsey Hilsum's report, I note that the farmer whose land the Strike Eagle schtumphed onto claimed thattwo planes came together, I saw everything with my own eyes. There was no shooting. The plane fell by itself and caught fireYes, I know about the reliability of eyewitnesses, but it does sound reasonable, nicht?

airsound

[500N]

MPN

In the rescue of the Pilots, the media / reporters on the ground are saying when the helicopter went into pick up one of the pilots, they fired on locals who were close to keep them away.

It's on any newspaper front page in the US, UK and Aus.

.

[draken55]

I understood the rescue mission was carried out by an Osprey and not a helo.

From the UK:-

Channel 4 obtained an interview with one of the six people who were reportedly shot by American forces as they tried to rescue the second stricken US airman today. The man, whose son was also injured, losing a leg, said he still loved the Americans, adding:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01817/quotes_1817837a.gif We would have picked him up and put him wherever he wanted, in a safe place. Even the first pilot, we had a celebration for him.
A man who saw the incident said:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01817/quotes_1817837a.gif We are disturbed by the shooting, because if they had given us a chance we would have handed over both pilots. This shooting created great panic

[Halton Brat]

Further to my previous, I just saw it again @ 2020Z on Sky news. I'm still of the view that this looks like a disconnected rod of some kind; the nut & bolt are clearly visible in the eye end. If I'm wrong, I'll put myself on a fizzer & make bedpacks for the rest of my life.

[draken55]

From the BBC

Former UK ambassador to Washington Sir Christopher Meyer tweets (http://twitter.com/#!/SirSocks): Unless Gaddafi implodes, sooner or later there'll be a need for boots on the ground to police a ceasefire. Better be Arab or Turkish boots."

And

Libya has declared gold reserves worth more than $6bn at current prices, thought to be held largely at home.
The reserves are substantial, ranking in the global top 25, according International Monetary Fund (IMF) data.
They could potentially be used to finance Colonel Gaddafi's government at a time when it is subject international financial sanctions.
It might be possible to transport the gold to other African countries and sell it.

[Rigchick]

Halton Brat - Got to agree with you on this, definitley an unusual disconnect if ever I saw one. Never known a bolt and nut to reconnect themselves!:uhoh:

Been a rigger myself for over 20 years (I know, just a young 'un!) but this is one for the BoI to have a close look at. Wish I had the ability to zoom in, it even looks like there may be a split pin still fitted!!:eek:

Just one thing though - and don't blame me, blame Wiki, but the F15 is old-fashioned hydro-mechanical not fly-by-wire. Looks like it could be the Airbrake Act?

[Halton Brat]

Thanks for putting me straight on F15 controls; I made the mistake of assuming that all modern combat jets are FBW (I'm a B747 man now, it's FBW - bloody long steel wires.....).

I started out on the Wiggins Aerodyne; rigging the Wing-Warping system was a nightmare.........

[Dimitris]

I understood the rescue mission was carried out by an Osprey and not a helo.

From the UK:-

Channel 4 obtained an interview with one of the six people who were reportedly shot by American forces as they tried to rescue the second stricken US airman today. The man, whose son was also injured, losing a leg, said he still loved the Americans, adding:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01817/quotes_1817837a.gif We would have picked him up and put him wherever he wanted, in a safe place. Even the first pilot, we had a celebration for him.
A man who saw the incident said:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01817/quotes_1817837a.gif We are disturbed by the shooting, because if they had given us a chance we would have handed over both pilots. This shooting created great panic

What the locals should have done was to give the pilot a bottle of water and when hear a chopper/V22 run the hell away.
The V22 was in CSAR mission and not picking sunk yacht survivors from the sea.

[Willard Whyte]

HB

I hope you will be a regular contributor on many more threads, your insight and eye for detail is much appreciated in combating the usual nit-picking cock-fighters.

[draken55]

I sure the people we are there to protect have now learned the lesson:hmm:

the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/23/world/africa/23libya.html?_r=2&hp) has claimed that two 500lb bombs were dropped during the rescue of the pilots overnight, quoting an unnamed Marine Corps officer who claimed the grounded pilot - who was in contact with the airborne rescue crew - asked for the explosives to be dropped as a precaution:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01817/quotes_1817837a.gif My understanding is he asked for the ordnance to be delivered between where he was located and where he saw people coming towards him...to keep what he thought was a force closing in on him from closing in on him.

After reports from The Guardian that US forces members had denied firing any shots during the rescue of two airmen, Sky News has reported that US military sources confirmed shots were fired during the operation.

[Halton Brat]

I am humbled by such comments coming from such a senior Ppruner, Sir; many thanks.

I owe all I am to my apprenticeship at the RAF College of Knowledge; indeed, when an extremely bullish AOC demanded to know what I based my judgement on during his Annual Inspection at Gutersloh, I replied "I was a Halton Apprentice, Sir". Camera pans to Stn Cdr chewing wasps......

Distant sound of Thread Drift Alarm............

[Wokkafans]

HB - good clear images on the Sky news website at 53 secs in: Video, Libya: Fourth Night Of Tripoli Air Strikes As US Jet Crashes In Libya | World News | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Video-Libya-Fourth-Night-Of-Tripoli-Air-Strikes-As-US-Jet-Crashes-In-Libya/Article/201103415957507?lpos=World_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15957507_Video%2C_Libya%3A_Fourth_Night_Of_Tripo li_Air_Strikes_As_US_Jet_Crashes_In_Libya) [Pictures of crashed US Air Force F15 in Libya]

Looks similar to the air brake actuator from this cutaway drawing:

http://i239.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/bajinganman/cutaway/MDDF-15SMTD.jpg (best viewed using view image and Ctrl + to zoom in)

Any reason to deploy the air brake when attempting to recover from a possible flat spin?

WF

[Halton Brat]

Thanks for the great legwork, truly worthy of Hercule Poirot!

I'm not a Seat/Stick Interface Unit, but I don't think Airbrake would have done anything in a a flat vertical descent that this crash site suggests. I recall going to a 4FTS Gnat crash site in Snowdonia that was similar; very considerate of the crew to park the wreck in one spot, we thought at the time (crew ejected OK).

[airsound]

http://www.pprune.org/[IMG]http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/airsound/F-15Rod.jpgIs this any use? - it's as big as I can get it to go without more pixellation

http://www.pprune.org/[IMG]http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/airsound/F-15Rod.jpg[http://i79.photobucket.com/albums/j134/airsound/F-15Rod.jpg

airsound

[Halton Brat]

Dear oh dear; I'm having a deja vu overdose here. Your still pic shows what I think is a loosely-assembled nut & bolt in a disconnected eye-end. I must temper this by saying that:

1. My only F15 experience is seeing one at an airshow.

2. I have no idea what system this rod relates to.

3. Without an up close & personal inspection of this item, I'm only able to guess.

But......I don't like the look of it...........I wouldn't have knowingly flown in it............I can think of several similar cases over the years..........

'Smoking Gun'?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Big panels do come off sometimes, had one upper engine duct panel start flapping about on my F3 Tornado once. Got it down without the panel breaking free.
F-15 panel might have ripped off in the crash. Could have been taken off by souvenir hunters.
Think we need an F-15 rigger on this one.
Has anybody checked ebay today? No 'business men' like the average Arab.

[Machaca]

This is the hydraulic actuator:

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/F15Eactuator1.jpg


For the composite air brake:

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/motidog/F15Eairbrake1.jpg


Clearly it was completely consumed in the fire.

The frames and skin forward of the actuator attach point are aluminium, aft are titanium.

[PPRuNe Pop]

Please stick to the topic. This thread is not a chat line.

[Halton Brat]

Rollocking received & understood, Mods. Just trying to inject a little humour, via my post which you have chosen to delete.

I'm sure even the guys on the Front Line are still capable of the odd chuckle.......

Point taken tho'; best behaviour henceforth :rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Pop]

Not a rollocking, just a reminder that we have recognize what this thread is about and, more importantly, who it is about. It is not a time for frivolity.

[Willard Whyte]

Bob Newhart:

"Laughter gives us distance. It allows us to step back from an event, deal with it and then move on."

[27mm]

Aviation Safety Network reporting Libyan AF transport plane shot down by allied airforces 60km east of Benghazi yesterday.....

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Linking quickly from thread creep to mission creep -
Will missions be generated to get the Arab air forces into the fray?
I expect it would help the PR no end if the Qataris or Saudis dropped a few bombs. AD probably isn't "visible" enough.
Thoughts?

[500N]

Fox3

Why not if it helps achieve the mission and isn't it important to get them involved ?

Just a case of finding a suitable target which I am sure could be achieved.

[BEagle]

F-22 lacks full Link 16: inability to communicate with other coalition aircraft.The designers of the F-22 had a dilemma, which is whether to have the connectivity that would allow versatility or to have the radio silence that would facilitate stealthiness. What they opted for was a limited set of tactical data links.

The F-22 can only connect with other F-22s via an intraflight data link, and can only receive, but not transmit, over the standard Link-16 data link found on most allied aircraft.

Limitations keep F-22 from use in Libya ops due to its inability to communicate with other coalition aircraft and its limited ability to hit ground targets.

More here: Limitations Keep Raptor on Sidelines in Libya Campaign - Defense News (http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6029012&c=MID&s=AIR)

However, surely operating with Link16 in conditional radio silence during 'stealth' parts of the mission would have been sufficient? The type of coalition action now in progress highlights yet again why all 'players' MUST be Link16-enabled to avoid fratricide and to enhance situational awareness.

[Gaz ED]

F-22s' Data Link Control Panel doesn't have a OFF/STBY/NORM/RADIO SILENT selection switch?

Can't see a problem with antenna if it can receive said signal.

Hmmmmmm

[AR1]

Not sure stealth is relevant in a mission where visibility is the key to a deterrent to flying.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

500N

No problem if they can do it well and it's a genuine target. Not certain that both these requirements would stop the average politician requesting a strike anyway, and the lack of command structure at present probably makes it easier for such requests to get actioned.
Forgive my cynicism; I've read history books.
"...and if any civilian casualties are caused, 'tis probably better that it's done by other Arabs" is, I suspect, being said in all political back offices around now.

[The Helpful Stacker]

Not sure stealth is relevant in a mission where visibility is the key to a deterrent to flying.

Adding the line "combat-proven" is a tried and tested means of promoting export sales (unlikely with the F22) or justifying further expenduture on more of the same (hmmmm).

Cynical? Moi?

[endplay]

I saw a 5 ship heading south abovethe Bristol Channel this morning (from the 16th tee at Worlebury for those who know the course). God speed and come home safe guys.

[Madbob]

It is good to see support coming from Arab nations, eg Quatar and Saudi.:ok:. I wish then safe ops and a safe return when this is all over.

One question though is on their ability to inter-operate with "NATO-esque" ops and to see just how many foreigh nations have "cut the mustard" at Red Flag / Maple Flag exercises?

Is their training, tactics and doctrine based on the way we go about the business? I suspect that flying similar ac helps but an F16A/B is a different beastie to an F16 D/E.......

MB

[TEEEJ]

Reuters are reporting that the F-15E wreckage has been bombed.

Sky News reporting that Kuwait and Jordan are willing to contribute to the NFZ.

TJ

[langleybaston]

surprised it was not a Tom Cruise.

[MPN11]

I'm hugely pleased to see other Arab nations contributing. It stops The Duck talking about 'Crusaders' for a start, and at the same time [hopefully] gives other Arab nations some credibility in this context.

It is, after all, fundamentally ...


An internal Libyan issue.
An African/Arab issue.


The foregoing obviously excludes Humanitarian aspects, Western oil interests, NATO's Southern Flank ... and the fact that there are many countries where similar interventions could be considered justifiable ;)

[Neptunus Rex]

The 'Meeja' report that Qatari fighters had to lob in to Larnaca (Cyprus) declaring a fuel emergency "having been blown off course."

Blown off course? That's a good start.

[MPN11]

Hi, NR ;)

I suspect that the Qataris aren't fully geared up for deployments. I suspect there may be a lack of practice in that department, but good for them for participating. :ok:

As for the stupid Meeja comment ... :yuk:

[BOAC]

I'm struggling to think where they were 'going' when they were 'blown'...............:)

[RookiePilot]

Latest BBC report referred to refuelling by "VC-10 Tristars" - wheeyyyyy :rolleyes:

[dead_pan]

Any sign of the Qataris yet? Or have they stopped off in Beirut for some R+R?


Maybe they were blown in (from) Beirut, as previously suspected?

Good to see them on board.:ok:

PS Are the Saudis really contributing a/c?

[dead_pan]

Latest BBC report referred to refuelling by "VC-10 Tristars" - wheeyyyyy


I'm sure there's some spotty spotter out there they could gainfully employ to make sure they got the IDs and a/c names correct?

[draken55]

They are on their way to Corsica.. As per the meeja.

"Qatar operates French-built Mirage 2000 aircraft, Teisseire said. As France is a longstanding strategic defense partner of Qatar, Paris has decided to deploy on the same territory as Qatar a certain number of aircraft in order to operate jointly with the Qatari Air Force, he said.
Privately, a French defense executive guessed the Qatari Mirages would fly to France and operate out of the French air force base 126 at Solenzara, on the island of Corsica.

The French Air Force is expected to operate increasingly from Solenzara.
Asked why the American and British forces did not hit the Libyan air defenses before the French jets flew into the operational area, Teisseire said: "If the joint staffs acted in this way together, it was because they together thought it was the right way to go.
"The actions were coordinated. The French aircraft were in the zone and completed a first mission in the face of an acknowledged threat to the civilian population," he said.

[Lonewolf_50]

I suspect that there is a French expression equivalent to:

"He who will not risk cannot win."

Sans fortitude, sans gloire

or something like that

[jindabyne]

AVM Bagwell says:

"We have the Libyan ground forces under constant observation and we attack them whenever they threaten civilians or attack

Is this in accord with the supposed 'no fly' policy? His words, to me, are worrisome. If he is meaningful, then the next step surely has to be 'boots on the ground', with all the consequences. Be very careful young AVMs; and all those who are of similar experience and given responsibility. Lead us not into another decade or more of wasted UK lives, unless there is convincing need.

No doubt most here would want to see the Libyan tyrant exterminated; but those charged with making decisions on our behalf should, IMHO, be unequivocal and determined in their intention. P^ss, or get off the pot.

[Vortex what...ouch!]

I'm hugely pleased to see other Arab nations contributing. It stops The Duck talking about 'Crusaders' for a start, and at the same time [hopefully] gives other Arab nations some credibility in this context.

It is, after all, fundamentally ...
An internal Libyan issue.
An African/Arab issue.

The foregoing obviously excludes Humanitarian aspects, Western oil interests, NATO's Southern Flank ... and the fact that there are many countries where similar interventions could be considered justifiable

I think its fundamentally a problem that you don't have to wager anything on. Brown people, aren't they annoying.

Similar interventions which don't involve anything from you. What is your input to all this, other than an opinion?

[Jollygreengiant64]

Jindabyne,

The wording of resolution 1973 was such that if Mr G's forces were advancing on Libyan civillians, then Coalition aircraft could engage them.

I fail to see how, if indeed this is to be 'over' quickly, Coalition ground forces wouldn't be involved. The second friendly aircraft pull out of the country will be the second his forces start killing again. If this is genuinely to be a war fought from the air, all that is going to happen is an expensive stalemate. Of course, there is always the possibility of the rebels getting the upperhand, but from what we have seen so far... Is that so likely?

[jindabyne]

The wording of resolution 1973 was such that if Mr G's forces were advancing on Libyan civillians, then Coalition aircraft could engage them.

No, it did not say that. It did say:

to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi

Nothing about engaging. But I may be shown to be wrong, if so, OK.

[Squirrel 41]

Jindabyne,

The two are synonymous as the UNSCR had previously authorised "all necessary measures" - ie, use of force.

S41

[0497]

No reports of USMC Cobras attack helicopters being used. Fighting is already is occurring in urban areas.

[moggiee]

Nothing about engaging. But I may be shown to be wrong, if so, OK.
Pray tell - just how do "we" protect civilians WITHOUT engaging the military combatants? I can promise you that a unilateral ceasefire by the rebels would not lead to a corresponding cessation of hostilities by government forces.

[Load Toad]

It's going to be an ongoing conflict between the various interested parties for years to varying levels of intensity. Characteristics will be somewhat irregular forces and battles which result in civilian deaths and other chaos. if we get involved any more than we are it'll be another drain on resources, we'll be there for years and we'll end up being friends with neither 'side'. When we leave it'll all kick off again anyway.
The best we can do is to nullify the advantage the 'govt' side has through attacking their military from the air and then just hoping that somehow the rebels win or they find a resolution. If the rebels win don't expect it to be love hugs all round either - there will be blood letting and recriminations.

In future - perhaps don't lend support to undemocratic tyrannical and corrupt dictators just because they are 'stable' and allow us to do business. It always blows up in our faces and ends up costing us.

[Andu]

Whichever side wins, there'll be a flood of refugees looking for a safe haven in Europe and other countries that have proven to be soft touches. If it's the rebels who win, we can expect some very unsavoury characters with a good sob story. Just the kind of people we need in our societies.

[Chris Scott]

Assuming this is not disinformation, we have her rank, name, squadron, normal base, current base, and face (helmet off).

What next: telephone number, perhaps? Astonishing.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

@CS

Whose name, rank, squadron etc?

[dead_pan]

I can promise you that a unilateral ceasefire by the rebels would not lead to a corresponding cessation of hostilities by government forces.

And vice versa - a case in point being Ajdabiya, to where Gaddafi's forces retreated as instructed, with the rebels in hot pursuit. I've just read this morning that we are targetting Gaddafi's forces there as a consequence of them fighting back against the rebels.

Does the resolution specify from whom we are protecting the civilians? Over on Jet Blast the question has been asked about whether we would be obliged to intervene were the rebels to imperil civilians e.g. attacking a town where Gaddafi's forces were holed up (ediited to add: like Ajdabiya).

[500N]

That is a very interesting question.

As people have been saying, this could get very messy indeed.

.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I expect the attack on any Gadaffi forces advancing is being justified on the grounds that they are currently bound to attack civilians also. If the reports (from a doctor) from Misrata are correct, Gadaffi has snipers surrounding a hospital shooting anyone going in or out. Shades of Bosnia. Gadaffi is not being as cynically intelligent about this as Saddam was, so bombing anything (general ammo dumps, rather than strictly AD ammo dumps for example) is OK.
Then there's always the 'Belgrano' argument, that anything retreating could turn round...
Gadaffi is making it easy to convince even the most dove-ish that continued action is required.
Syria next! At least we'll be able to operate from AKR. Tip-top, number 1 base!

[draken55]

The UN decided to look upon Libya as another "Arab Spring" popular uprising being put down by force. However was it? Unlike Egypt, there was insufficient leverage in the short term on the country's economy or it's armed forces to stop the threat of force or the actual fighting in Libya once it began.

Will Libya's armed forces decide to withdraw, be allowed to or to lay down their arms or switch sides under the impact of stand off and limited armed intervention? If not it could well be stalemate with civilians still under threat but now from both sides.

Belgrano? We were at war and as for Syria don't even go there! Not unless you think conflict throughout the Middle East is a good idea!

[tonker]

I don't think we should be discussion anything. This man and his regime committed the biggest act of mass murder on our soil, let alone the murder of WPC Yvonne Fletcher and the arms sales to the IRA. There is no debate, we have an almost free hand to topple him and his vile family and we should do it.

As for countries like Iran, Syria, Algeria, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia and China complaining. All these nations are run by murdering un democratic despots to a man, and its no wonder that thy don't want to see or even encourage another of their "own" being toppled. We have the chance to crack on and do whats right for the World, and that includes others like Zimbabwe.

The tide for democracy is gathering place all around this region, and we should do everything we can to encourage its progress and pace. Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles away a regime is murdering its people with air power etc?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Draken, we weren't 'at war' in the Falklands, formally, just as we aren't now.
Tonker, calm down. There's a lot Gadaffi's done earlier that we did nothing about. There are a lot worse than Gadaffi, it's just that it isn't on Youtube.

And as Draken pointed out, we can't go sorting out everyone's problems. We don't have the troops, the money or, frankly, the interest.

Troops on the ground means dead soldiers; UK Citizens (and of course Nepal, Fiji, etc). Aircraft and boats lobbing clever rocks is always the preferred option in my view.

Cynicism aside, my concern is that politicians may be tying themselves in knots over their statements, since I believe the whole Middle East question is going to get messier, and it won't get sorted out fast. I think Dave is getting it right to use those 3 conditions, and make the action dependant on UN agreement, as we can always veto action in other countries. To avoid this getting UK political, I am pleased to see the whole parliament united on this one.

[draken55]

Fox 3

My point was that our Armed Forces went South the remove their Armed Forces from UK Territory. A clear cut objective though some still like to argue the Belgrano and some other issues that emerged on the conduct of the Campaign.

As for Parliament, in 2003 MP' voted in favour of the war against Iraq. Some pretty similair reasons too. I assume that was your point;)

[dead_pan]

Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles


Nah, I never liked Malta anyway. I quite fancy Dubai though...

I expect the attack on any Gadaffi forces advancing is being justified on the grounds that they are currently bound to attack civilians also.

Its clear he's in breach in Misrata, but probably not in Ajdabiya. Whats going on there is more like CAS for the rebels by default.

Tonker - don't get me wrong I'm all for getting rid of this maniac, however there are ways and means. Some half-baked, ill-considered and poorly supported enhanced NFZ isn't one of them, IMO.

[AR1]

Could you really stomach going on your holidays to Malta knowing that just over 100 miles
Many people did just that.

We have the chance to crack on and do whats right for the World
Time would have done it for us, as it will to all of us.

The key issue here is the protection of the Civilians his troops are/were killing via a NFZ. Like all battle plans it didn't survive first contact with the enemy, and now he isn't killing from the air, but from the ground. Thus we were cleaver enough to get a clause 'all necessary measures' in order for us to attack ground targets too.
but if we are successful in halting Gaddafi's ground forces, then what? If the rebels attack (as they surely will), and Gaddafis forces retaliate what happens then? Do we allow the rebels to kill other Libyans and remove Gaddafi from power? In which case did we not aid the removal of the leader by our resolution?
What if there's stalemate?
can't see an end here apart from a flipping mess. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Lonewolf_50]

Your use of "Civilians" tells us how easy it is to get hoodwinked by the usual media and UN rhetorical foolishness.

Use of "Civilians" in this matter provides nothing useful for applying an RoE that makes any sense. It appears to me that a profound lack of thought has gone into this operation, to include the political assertions of just what is to be achieved by the use of arms. Behind all of the rhetoric and noise, it appears that "support anyone shooting at the Daffy One" is the political aim.

If I oppose The Daffy one, and wear jeans and a t shirt, and boots, and carry about an AK-47 with the intent to "fight the man" how am I a Civilian? At that point, I am a combatant. I am thus a target, depending upon who you are.

Your post would suggest that I am "a civilian" for your purposes. (Or did I misunderstand you? It is a very muddy topic ... )

[draken55]

Ewan Whosearmy

First woman to fly Typhoon enforces no-fly-zone - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/8402845/First-woman-to-fly-Typhoon-enforces-no-fly-zone.html)

In case you don't already have the answer!

[dead_pan]

Well, its already looking like a stalemate and de facto partition. Unless we do something dramatic Misrata will probably fall at some point in the next few weeks. The uprising in the west is unlikely to be re-kindled unless they can see the rebels on the horizon, and that ain't going to happen anytime soon. Of course, we could extend our already slippery definition of "all necessary measures" to include arming and training the rebels inthe east, but then many could justifiably argue that this is going way beyond our mandate, given that any rebel offensive will endanger any civilians who happen to be in the way.

And to think, this time last week this wasn't our problem. Oh, happy days.