ABC News: Fatigued pilots caught on camera...

[Jet Jockey A4]

The special report shows what we have known for years is happening in this industry and IMHO it will never change no matter what the NTSB, the FAA or government ties to implement.

People want cheap airfares; they don't want to pay for a good and safe service. Well that's what you get, overtired and underpaid pilots.

Fatigued Pilots Exposed (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/video/us-22424932/fatigued-pilots-exposed-24144948.html#crsl=%252Fvideo%252Fus-22424932%252Ffatigued-pilots-exposed-24144948.html)

[Huck]

I saw the same news story.

Only it was in 1992....

[No RYR for me]

Excellent topic. Hope the rest of the US media will pick it up and so will the legislators.

But remember what happened last time: a crash due to not adequately trained pilots with a lack of sleep. So what do they do about it:

No:
-Improved salary to pay for proper accomodation
-No rules on proper rest
-No proper rest facilities made available to pilots
-No improved training

Yes
-Increase in minimum hours flying C150 and the like before you are hired as window dressing with no cost to the airlines (how that helps to prepare for working on a complex aircraft is beyond me....)

:ugh:

[Checkboard]

The face of the next crew room?

http://montaraventures.com/blog/wp-content/2008/06/coffinhotel.jpg

[Jet Jockey A4]

Those are probably quieter, cleaner and most likely offer a better sleeping environment than those makeshift sleep quarters found in the USA!

[d105]

My first thought going into this post was someone had caught a pilot snoring on the flightdeck.

[Checkboard]

CRT4dU6r-KQ

:ok:

[RogerClarence]

Checkboard: remove that pic :eek::eek:before the LCC's management see it, PLEASE DONT GIVE THE *******s ANY IDEAS :E:E

[MTOW]

Re post #4: the cubicles look distressingly like the aft torpedo tube crew "rest" area in EK 777s.

[helen-damnation]

look distressingly like the aft torpedo tube crew "rest" area in EK 777s

only better!

[dfish]

Here is the Nightline story

Pilot Fatigue and 'Crash Pads' Threaten The Safety Of Airline Passengers - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/pilot-fatigue-crash-pads-threaten-safety-airline-passengers/story?id=12874949)

Dave Fishback

[jcjeant]

Hi,

I watched the story (although it does not tell me anything more than I knew before)
The same problem arises in Europe and the regulator (EASA) take no action .. despite repeated requests by pilots
In fact the pilots (who are most concerned ... followed by the passengers who entrust them with their lives) simply have to act themselves
Not well rested .. sorry boss .. I do not fly today!

[captjns]

jcjent says...

...In fact the pilots (who are most concerned ... followed by the passengers who entrust them with their lives) simply have to act themselves

Not well rested .. sorry boss .. I do not fly today!

Good intention... but unfortunately a very fine l line you may be walking alone. without the support you need.

[jcjeant]

Hi,

Good intention... but unfortunately a very fine l line you may be walking alone. without the support you need.

It's just a matter of solidarity and organization between the pilots.
And if the will exist ... the companies will be on a very fine line.
Of course if the pilot are suicidal (fly when not well rested) and want to take with them the passengers in their fate .. nobody can't make a change in the situation !

[avi8ors]

...and now that Jetstar intends to hire pilots from outside of Australia in an effort to cut salaries, will there be more of the same "cost-cutting"?

[Shell Management]

...and now that Jetstar intends to hire pilots from outside of Australia in an effort to cut salaries, will there be more of the same "cost-cutting"?


The matter at hand is fatgue not petty industrial relation disputes.

The solution is to use a proper Fatigue Risk Management System that actually controls fatigue factors, such as stopping crew rooms being a doss house, rather than just being a fexi-roster.

[Brian Abraham]

such as stopping crew rooms being a doss houseAnd they might not be forced into that position if they were paid a living wage, but that would cripple your KPI Shellie. Management :yuk:

[outofsynch]

That video should be shown as part of pax brief on nearly every airline worldwide.....

There aint no such thing as a free (cheap) lunch.

Cheap tickets equals lower standards. Basic accounting.

[stuckgear]

Reference, Checkboard's pic in post 4...

the next step ....

http://www.colsec.co.uk/clientUploads/colsec/uploads/radEditor/images/Mortuary2.jpg

Note: No hint of sarcasm intended, but consideration as to the effects of fatigue on the flight line.

[Taildragger67]

Cheap tickets equals lower standards. Basic accounting.
100% right.

However in the current race to the bottom, the drivers are getting screwed - but the first & business punters are not travelling on cheap tickets.

This is not rocket science. In the financial services industry, regulations are becoming more onerous and this will be reflected in product pricing. Likewise, it would be cheaper to build houses without fire regulations - but the fire regs are there and their cost is built into the price.

So why won't governments simply regulate on the grounds of safety - minimum rest, minimum experience standards, etc. This will raise costs and so ticket prices, but if everyone has to do it, then no-one will have an advantage. Punters will just have to pay $5 extra. And they will, without noticing.

[sf25]

People want cheap airfares; they don't want to pay for a good and safe service. Well that's what you get, overtired and underpaid pilots.

... DEFINITELY NOT! cheap airfares were not invented by passengers. cheap prices are a means of competition and used to swamp competitors from the makets .....

the passengers expect rules and regulations which avoid fatigue and management boards who are aware of their responsibility ....

... and pilots who know where their personal limits are ....

[AvMed.IN]

jcjeant,
In fact the pilots (who are most concerned ... followed by the passengers who entrust them with their lives) simply have to act themselves
Not well rested .. sorry boss .. I do not fly today!
In fact, what you have stated occurred couple of years back at Delhi when the British Airways crew refused to take off (http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/business/news/article_1291889.php/Crew_fatigue_delays_British_Airways_flight_by_12_hours) on account of inadequate rest.

But isn't it bound to occur, if the regulators (http://www.avmed.in/2010/12/unsafe-deceit-air-india-extends-pilots-duty-hours/) are lax, and the ops indifferent to crew scheduling (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/lost-sleep-compromised-safety/).

[somedaywill12]

That article link posted above...I can't believe that they said that due to it being a five star hotel that there was no way they'd be kept awake....we've all been there from time to time, no matter how supposedly luxurious a hotel, building works or other noises prevent any kind of proper sleep. Good for the captain and crew for refusing to fly.

[Hogger60]

The most hilarious (and I don't mean 'ha ha' funny, but more :ugh:YGBSM funny) thing about the ABC News report is that Randy Babbitt, the head of the FAA (and a former Eastern pilot) told the reporter that he was surprised (shocked, shocked, I tell you :ooh:!!) to hear that pilots were sleeping in the crew lounges because the airlines had told him that it wasn't happening any more, and they always tell the truth (sarcasm very intended).

I know that he sold his soul long ago in order to become the politician he always wanted to be, but come on Randy, stop worrying about which lucrative fees you will lose once you have left government and gone back to consulting if you actually stand up to the airlines in the true name of safety.This has been one of the biggest problems in the industry since before those of us who lived through the Eastern debacle (and you were there too) were fighting Frank Lorenzo, and it will continue to be one until you finally grow a pair.

[Huck]

I fly for the world's largest cargo airline, and we have sleep rooms and recliners all over our hubs and outstations. Nothing wrong with sleeping during downtime at work.

The guys/girls that don't get a crashpad and spend multiple nights there are not exactly shining examples of professionalism, but I don't think that it's a safety problem.

What IS a safety problem: a wage scale that turns away quality. The free market in its purest form: lower pay = lower talent.

I've read all I can read on the Colgan crash. It wasn't fatigue, in my humble opinion. It was pulling instead of pushing, retracting flaps instead of firewall power. It was a lack of flying talent. Sorry to say.

[Jet Jockey A4]

"I've read all I can read on the Colgan crash. It wasn't fatigue, in my humble opinion. It was pulling instead of pushing, retracting flaps instead of firewall power. It was a lack of flying talent. Sorry to say."


I have to agree with you on the pilot skills in that accident but I'll throw in inexperience as a factor too (for the co-pilot).

However fatigue was also an underlying factor in that accident so says the FAA now. Perhaps if the two pilots (or even only one) had gotten a good night's sleep, maybe just maybe they would have reacted differently to the situation prior to the crash.

[puff m'call]

EK crew rest is simply a coffin in the rear of the jet, no room to sit up and nowhere to even sit and read a book, you lie down, that's it!!!!!!:ugh:

[FlyingOfficerKite]

In my opinion, the low cost airlines in particular have provided a means of countering the effects of 'fatigue' by recruiting and then training high calibre personnel to a high standard.

Nevertheless I once 'jumped ship' when extremely fatigued (with the co-operation of the Captain who was a CRM trainer and appreciated the issues) by stating I was suffering from a 'tummy upset'. Heaven forbid the word 'fatigue' was mentioned.

The airline's view being that if the company operates to CAP371 then it must be the pilot who is to blame for not getting sufficient rest (and presumably for flying when fatigued if the unthinkable were to happen).

[G_Orwell]

Capt. Chesley 'Sully' Sullenberger Exclusive: 'Our Passengers Deserve Better' Than Tired Pilots - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/video/exclusive-passengers-deserve-capt-sully-12876994?tab=9482931&section=10268699&playlist=10268695&page=1)