Thinking about gliding

[The500man]

As I'm currently working on ATPL distance learning, and alongside paying for this course, am saving for an aerobatic course in the summer, I was looking into cheaper options of flying in the meantime.

Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be too popular going to a gliding club and saying that, so I was wondering if anyone on PPRUNE has made the backwards journey of power to powerless flight and whether they would recommend it to me?

Is it an easy transition to gliders? How long can you stay in the air? Can you actually go somwhere?

I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley. Does anybody have recent experience there? Would it be a good place to start?

[BackPacker]

Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.

Brilliant!:ok:

I started gliding about three years ago, when I had my PPL for two years or so. I always compare it to sailing vs. motorboating. With a motor boat you can be reasonably sure that you're going to get from A to B on schedule, but the trip itself is relatively boring. With sailing, most days you'll be working hard all day, but at the end of the day you'll find yourself back at the same dock where you left that morning.

Gliding is most of all a sport, instead of a method of getting somewhere. The sport is to steer the aircraft so that you're making maximum use of the available lift, to stay aloft as long as you can and eventually get as far away as you can. That requires constant attention to circumstances, where lift is likely to be found, navigation, other airspace users and so on. It's very intensive, particularly on days with only minimal convection. But most glider pilots, at the end of the day, end up at the same place they departed from.

How long can you stay aloft? Well, you'll find that lots of flights last less than ten minutes. Slightly more if you get an aerotow to a reasonable altitude. Those are the typical flights where you cannot find any lift whatsoever, so it's all downhill. In contrast, the longest flights are in excess of 24 hours but you're going to need ridge lift for those. Convective lift only happens roughly between 11am and 5pm because you need sunshine for that.

What's the maximum distance? Well over 3000 km. But those are record-braking flights which do not happen very often. And even then, only in specific circumstances and specific places (long ridges with perpendicular wind for instance). 500 km is quite an achievement on convective lift alone. But (and that's a big but) you have to be lucky with the weather in any case. You cannot use a glider as a reasonably reliable method to get from A to B, unless A and B are both glider sites (with the ability to get you back in the air somehow) and not too far apart.

So don't approach gliding as a method of transport. Approach it as a sport. One that is able to refine your basic flying skills to no end. You'll get a much better feel for what the aircraft, but also the atmosphere is capable of.

If you want to get an intro flight, just phone the club and ask for an intro launch or intro day. They'll be happy to accomodate you.

[effortless]

I was out walking along the south downs two weekends ago. There were about three gliders riding the ridge. They were up for ages and having a ball by the look of it. I was very jealous, I haven't been gliding for years but you will love it if flying is what you love.

[tinpilot]

How hard is it? Not that hard:
2 day course (http://www.lashamgliding.co.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=EC13yHr7Vl0%3d&tabid=65)
video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb2AjnVP9gM&feature=player_embedded)

Do they go places? Yes (http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/Enquiry.asp) Have a look at some flights from last summer, sort by distance.

As BackPacker says, it's a sport, not a means of transport. Some people get it, some people don't.

The biggest problem with Kenley is that it's surrounded by airspace and sits under a 2,500 ceiling. Larger clubs usually have more training options & better aircraft for post solo flying.

Soaring involves waiting for the right weather & then flying one long flight.

[thing]

Er........gliding ain't boring. Crank your speakers up........

YouTube - Extreme Gliding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccL8SwQLuPU)

By the way, Backpacker has summed gliding up as well as anyone could, it's about flying for the sheer sake of it. Plus a good flight on a good day will wring you out, it's an extremely skilled sport. Gliders are easy to fly, they are maddeningly difficult to fly well. Bit like golf really.

[tggzzz]

am saving for an aerobatic course in the summerWhy not do aerobatics in a glider? Even standard trainers do loops, chandelles and spins, many gliders allow rolls, and some are stunning aerobatic.
bog-standard pre-solo aerobatics YouTube - Segelflug, Trudeln mit Fox (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKWuS_jLFHE)
standard aerobatics YouTube - Sailplane aerobatics (Better quality) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-zcR8OqysU)
display aerobatics YouTube - Nutter in a glider at Kemble 2007 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irXAiw60ETQ)
serious aerobatics YouTube - Aeros in Swift (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKTTX-skuxM)Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.It is said that people who transition from gliders to powered aircraft first have to learn that you can fly straight and level, and then have to find a way of staying awake while flying straight and level because it is soooo boring.

Try ridge running where you are eyeballing sheep on the hillside whilst avoiding the other half dozen craft doing the same. YouTube - A Jolly Jaunt in the DG500 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U0Np1Laxy4) or YouTube - What did you do today? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dhac_vWKWyg) YouTube - You Call That A Ridge! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCyiG_m-aNM)

Try "formation" flying behind a tug, or "loose formation" flying by sharing a thermal with other gliders.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be too popular going to a gliding club and saying that, I expect they would have a slow, broad grin as they realised how much fun could be had demonstrating that your understanding is flawed. That's both you and them having fun :)

How long can you stay in the air? I believe duration records were abandoned decades ago because it is unwise to fly when you are asleep. Nowadays it is limited by the hours of daylight.

Five hours is the shortest that is regarded as "interesting" (but certainly not remarkable).

Can you actually go somwhere?Well, if you want to guarantee arriving at a particular place at a particular time, then I wouldn't use a glider.

But yes, they do go places (and usually return). For example, a few of last year's flights picked out more-or-less at random...
London-N Yorkshire-London-Humberside-London Flight Details (http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/dscore.asp?FlightID=25915)
London-Scotland-London Flight Details (http://www.bgaladder.co.uk/dscore.asp?FlightID=26155)I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley. See British Gliding Association >> Find a Club >> UK Map (http://www.gliding.co.uk/findaclub/ukmap.htm) for the full list.

[Mechta]

Quote from I don't know where: 'Gliding is to power flying as seduction is to rape'

A 747 pilot joined our club recently, and he loves it.

Its a totally different activity to power flying.

Get a thermal just as you were about to start your landing circuit, take it up to cloudbase, head along a cloud street, meet some other gliders and join their thermal, look out like you've never done before, they're above you, below you, on the other side of the thermal from you. maybe this one's too crowded so go and look for another.
A buzzard joins you in this one and you can see his tip feathers working every molecule of lift. You've got bigger wings though and after a few revolutions you outclimb him.
Another go in the cloudstreet, this time just dive in sink and slow down and climb in lift. Home airfield calls to say they've got heli movements for the next 3/4 hour, so come down now, stay up or land out. ' Sod it', you think, 'I'm at 4500ft, I'll tell them I'm staying up'.
.
Suddenly the sky is full of gliders, it must be a task returning to the neighbouring gliding site. At least there's no difficulty seeing where the lift is now. In no time, the home airfield is open again, so its time to head back to give someone else a go. Loads of height to burn off, so nose down and start covering ground at a speed to make a good few spamcan drivers green with envy.
Back on the ground, and the first person to arrive says, 'Can you go and drive the winch, '**** has been on it for ages and its his go in this one.' Ah, well, payback time...

Just flying around in circles? Yes, I guess it is, mostly!

[chrisN]

500man, here are some realities for you.

At most gliding clubs, you don't just book a lesson, you need to be prepared to spend most or all of the day there at a time. Ratio of time on the ground to time in the air is very poor compared with power flying.

The time on the ground is not all "wasted” as it involves a lot of learning from seeing what other people do, as well as making your contribution to launching the others, just as you get help from them when it is your turn.

Conversion to gliding and reaching a stage of competence where you can do your first cross-country is possible in one season, if you can go for one day most weeks.

Cost per minute flying in club two seaters is not much cheaper than power, but most training flights are quite short. Winch launching is probably harder to learn including catering for all emergencies. All-aerotow launching and learning would be more expensive, per flight, but might be more economical overall to solo standard.

Gliding examinations have to be taken before going cross-country, even if you have all your PPL exams passed (an ATPL at my gliding club had to do them all too).

Hope this helps.

Chris N

[mary meagher]

No, not Kenley. Only operates Monday through Friday, weekends is reserved for ATC. And as others have noted, airspace problems big time.

Hate to say it, but you are probably closer to Lasham than my club at Shenington near Banbury, but google both and then decide!

Mary

[BackPacker]

Gliding examinations have to be taken before going cross-country, even if you have all your PPL exams passed (an ATPL at my gliding club had to do them all too).

In the Netherlands, my PPL gets me waivers for four out of six ground exams. The ones I still have to do are Gliders Technical (construction) and Navigation.

An ATPL would get you a waiver for Navigation too.

But I have to say that the BGA seems to have a totally different examination regime compared to the Dutch KNVvL, so YMMV. Even though they both claim to deliver an ICAO-compliant GPL.

[cats_five]

I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley.


Nearest isn't necessarily best just as cheapest isn't necessarily best. use the BGA website, look at the websites of the easy-to-get-to clubs, pay some visits and then decide.

Is gliding a backwards step? No. Instead of being a mode of transport it's a very skilful activity - far more than power flying. We have quite a few CPLs (including two of the best XC pilots) and several PPLs at my club who all find gliding a challenging and enthralling sport. We will also be flying, safely, at my club in winds that will have the local GA strip grounded.

[Frelon]

The500Man

If Kenley is closer than Lasham, and you can fly during the week, do not discount it. The smaller gliding clubs tend to be a little more welcoming. Flying from a small airfield like Kenley will certainly improve your flying skills and help make you a better pilot.

[blind pew]

Except for paragliding - you won't find any other form of civilian flying more challenging nor rewarding.
Flown big jets for excellent companies, instructed class A tail draggers and gliders; also flown helicopter, paramotor, microlights - everything except military and autogyros.

Glider aeros are an art but the best flying is mountain soaring (french alps).

And if you get bored you can always tug - cable drop downwind at 50ft doing 250 kph followed by pull up to 150ft and land opposite direction - rolling the wings level from a 40 degree banked turn at 20ft.

The CAA stopped glider racing finishes after a photographer was decapitated - now that was exciting flying.

[The500man]

Thanks for all the info everyone!

I hadn't even given vertical airspace restrictions a single thought when thinking about Kenley.

It looks, from the BGA site, like my options would include Kent, Booker, and Surrey Hills. Based solely on them being the nearest.

I am surprised by some of the prices quoted though. It certainly isn't cheap! £90 for a 15 minute trial flight at Kent. Even more at Booker.

Weekday flying isn't an issue for me so I think I'll contact Surrey Hills at Kenley and see if it's something I definitely want to spend money on before commiting to the more expensive courses and aerotows.

Now if anyone is planning a sacrifice to the sun god, can you let me know so I can book some flying time!

Thanks :)

[Slats One]

If you are going to be an airline pilot, one day, one day, you are going to need enhanced situational awareness and an appreciation of your aircraft's wing loading, wing energy and descent profile, oh and you may find your self needing some really sharp situational awareness, look out and speed references in the landing approach.

By the above I mean actual forencis, immediate, thinking- sharp focused, attitude - the same sort of behavioural psychology that saw the glider instructor Capt Chesley Sullenberger bring it all together in his US Air Air A320 above the Hudson River....

So the way to sharpen up your thinking - especially in the landing zone, is by learning to fly a glider- and how to land a glider- every landing being a critical exercise in judegement and multi-tasking.

By learning these skills, you will avoid doing something like that which happened to a Turkish Airliens Boeing 737 NG over the muddy fields of Schiphol Amsterdam not so long ago.

Gliding = advanced, predictive - aware - thinking - unless you become one of those complacent types who knows everything and gets caught out by a lack of acuity - there are a few like that about in all types of flying.

I know, I am a power pilot who now glides and I am So much safer for it.

Go and learn to glide, my young accomplice in the act of flight.

[thing]

£90 for an intro flight seems a bit steep, it's £30 at my site which includes a months membership. Once you join a club it's not expensive. My club is £190 a year membership and £6 for a winch launch. Soaring in a club glider is 30p a minute, so basically an hours gliding costs £24. Of course if you have your own or a share in a glider you just pay £6 for the launch and fly all day if you want.

[Pace]

Soaring in a club glider is 30p a minute, so basically an hours gliding costs £24. Of course if you have your own or a share in a glider you just pay £6 for the launch and fly all day if you want.

Is that 30p a minute for a landline launch or are mobiles more ;) ?

All sounds very tempting.The challenege of seeking lift sounds good too.
Who knows might have a go myself certainly cheaper than driving a club lawnmower around.

Pace

[thing]

I haven't got a PPL but have done plenty of thrumming around in light aircraft. Gliding is infinitely more interesting from a pure flying point of view. There's not a lot of straight and level lets put it that way...

The point about not being able to go anywhere is an interesting one. How many people with PPL's create somewhere to go because they have a PPL? Or do they have to justify having a PPL by taking folk for the £100 burger? I suspect, I may be wrong, that many people who do a PPL do so purely for the pleasure of flying rather than as a means to an end, such as commuting to work etc. I'm not including pro pilots here obviously. The only name that springs to mind on this forum is IO540 who I believe uses his light aircraft for work as well as pleasure.

Of course each to their own, the sky is big enough for all of us (well....you would think so...) but if you just like being up in the wild blue yonder then I think a lot of people miss a trick by not trying gliding. I've never met a single power pilot who glides that doesn't get an awful lot more out of gliding than they do powered. As I say, it's not a knocking competition, I'm thinking of doing a PPL myself, purely as another flying experience, you can't have too many, but I can't see me being more than a VFR 12 hours a year man.

[Gasil]

I dunno... nipping of to the coast on a nice day seems a pretty good reason to have a PPL to me...
but, I also fly gliders. Gliding is easy -there's nothing difcult about and don't beleive anyone who says otherwise. But what you will get from gliding is lots of practice engine failure and lots of dead stick landingshttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif. It will give you a better sence of the atmosphere; for example, what you call turbulance is infact the lifting energy of a thermal. I know lots of power pilots, myself included, who use thermals to climb and get better perfomance out of our aircraft. What gliding will give you is the confidence to dump your a/c in a field if the donkey quits and a lot of good stick and rudder practice.

[cats_five]

Gliding is easy -there's nothing difcult about and don't beleive anyone who says otherwise.

Yes, gliding is easy. Soaring is a whole different and much harder ball game.

[Unusual Attitude]

I recently moved into the counrtyside about 1 mile from a very well know gliding club and was keen to give it a try. (Did some in my younger days in the Air Cadets and also instructed on the G109B years ago so not totally new to it.)

I dropped them a mail to get some more details and as above was basically told to come along first thing in the morning, expect to be there all day and *IF* I was very lucky I might get the chance of a flight.

Given that I dont have a great deal of spare time as it is to fly my own powerd aircraft, to give up a whole day for only the *potential* of a flight isint something I'm willing to do which is a great shame.
I had hoped it would be a case of pitching up, paying my money, and doing as much gliding as possible to progress quickly in the sport but obviously thats not the case.

I do understand there is a lot of effort required on the ground but I find it odd that they dont use keen teenagers etc who are willing to push and pull all day long in return for the odd free flight ? I know I would have loved that oppertunity in my younger days.

Perhaps I'll give it a try once i'm retired and have some more spare time !

[Nubboy]

Gliding clubs come in all shapes and flavours. They can however be broken into 2 main types, winch and aerotow. Sub groups would be ridge/hill site or flat. Further division would be privately owned (think FBO type operation, ala USA) or commitee run. Pick your club very carefully to suit your needs.
Gliding can be very expensive on time. Self help clubs need lots of membership input to run the launch point, instruct, fly the tug, drive the winch, retrieve the gliders after landing, run the bar after flying etc etc. Commercial type operators tend to provide much of the labour, but charge for it in membership, launch and flying fees. Both types will have a high proportion of private owners. Commitee clubs will expect you to either get the kit out and help before you fly, after you fly and to put it away, or possibly both. Private operators are much more relaxed about you turning up, getting a launch, then going home (or the bar) after landing.
As with most things, pay your money and take your choice.
Good luck.

[BackPacker]

*IF* I was very lucky I might get the chance of a flight.

What was the weather expected to be like?

In my (limited) experience, the days coordinator/duty instructor will try and arrange three flights per person per day. The rest of the time you're supposed to help out on the ground.

If it's a good thermic day, you might only get one or two flights, but those will be 45-60 minutes flights. If it's not thermic at all, you might be able to get in as many as six flights a day, but all will be ~6 minutes.

Obviously in early March there's limited daylight and thus even more limited chance of getting good thermals. But there's also a greater chance of downright horrible weather making flying impossible.

So, no, they do not give you any guarantees about the number of flights but if circumstances permit you should be doing at least three short flights, or one or two longer flights.

As far as the rest of your mail is concerned, yes, gliding is much more a team effort than powered flying. You are expected to be present from the morning briefing onwards until the last aircraft has been cleaned and put in the hangar.

[Unusual Attitude]

This was during the summer of last year so weather not really an issue, I suspect they were merely making it clear not to turn up with expectations of getting lots of flying done.

I totally understand that to keep costs low etc everyone is expected to help out which I'm more than happy to do. I would however be pretty miffed on a cracking day to have not got flown after a full days attendance when I have my own aircraft sitting in the hanger that I dont get chance to fly enough as it is!

[thing]

FWIW I go every week to my club and have done one 4 minute circuit this year so far. I can't remember a worse winter for gliding.

[Poeli]

I simply love it, going to do it again this summer:cool:

[cumulusrider]

A number of the larger clubs are offering bookable time slots for training. These days people are either money rich and time poor or vice versa.
Gliding is so weather dependant that time in the air cannot be guaranteed. For example a clear, high pressure day this time of the year will offer little thermal lift so a winch launch will only last 6-8 minutes. However a nice spring day with cumulus clouds could offer 7 hours of soaring.

Regarding cost. a winch launch at our club is about £8.50 and will get you to about 1300ft. On top of that you pay 52p per minute soaring fee with a maximum of 2 1/2 hrs

A typical cross country flight in our duo discus during the summer might be 5hrs and cover more than 300km for a total cost of about £95.

Ridge soaring is another experience. 80knts at 200-300ft agl.
Wave flying in the mountains at 20,000ft+ far above the ceiling of most light aircraft.
Aerobatics, vintage gliders, becoming an instructor, competitions, driving the winch are other aspects.

The social side of it tends to be rather active. The membership tends to be very diverse. From peers of the realm, to professional pilots, IT workers, builders, farmers, unemployed, academics, students and schoolkids.

I fly from a club in north hampshire. If the chap who started this thread would like to visit and see what gliding can offer i would be delighted to act as your guide

[Captain Smithy]

Gliding is good fun, affordable and makes you a much better pilot. I did a bit when I was in the Cadets and still miss it today. If I was you I'd go for it.

Fancy taking it up myself again if I had the spare time...

Smithy

[cats_five]

Aerobatics, vintage gliders, becoming an instructor, competitions, driving the winch are other aspects.

Driving a tractor, cutting grass, serving in the bar, picking gliders out of fields, becoming paranoid about weather, etc. etc....

[cumulusrider]

Driving a tractor, cutting grass, serving in the bar, picking gliders out of fields, becoming paranoid about weather, etc. etc....

Members dont drive the tractor or cut the grass. The bar is an independant franchise. Most modern cross country gliders have a turbo, get you home motor. Shame as field retrieves are good fun with a free beer at the end.

Show me any pilot who is not paranoid about the weather.

Taking part is a large portion of the fun. In the last year I have driven to Germany to collect a trailer, painted a control room, helped the scoring in a national competition and driven the winch for the cadets. All of which I volunteered to do.

Why do people have to be so negative on this forum or is it just CATS5?

[cats_five]

Driving a tractor, cutting grass, serving in the bar, picking gliders out of fields, becoming paranoid about weather, etc. etc....
Members dont drive the tractor or cut the grass. The bar is an independant franchise.

At your club.


Most modern cross country gliders have a turbo, get you home motor. Shame as field retrieves are good fun with a free beer at the end.

No, there are still plenty of us without a turbo - except maybe at your club...


Why do people have to be so negative on this forum or is it just CATS5?

Actually I enjoy all those things!

[thing]

Crikey Cumulus, I'd like to know which club that is. There's one turbo at my club and everything, bar, cutting grass, the whole lot is done by the members and I can't think of another club (granted I obviously haven't been to them all) where it's not the same.

[T-21]

Your stick and rudder skills will improve enormously . Lookout will be life dependent as you might join lots of other gliders in a thermal. Your judgement skills will be sharper in the circuit and landing. As you are flying closer to the stall you will have a healthy respect for the rudder and adverse yaw plus totally confident in recovering from spins. Compared with power flying I think you will be a much better seat of the pants handling aviator.
For those stuck on the winch or retrieve tractor remember this " even caterpillars become butterflies "

[Flying Lawyer]

.

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GLIDING SCHOLARSHIPS

New for 2011 -

2 scholarships for a residential week at Lasham in early August 2011.

Interviews will be held in London on Tuesday 3 May 2011.

More information here: Guild Young Members Group (http://www.gapanym.org/)


Closing dates for applications: 23 March 2011



Good Luck. :ok:
Tudor Owen

[cats_five]

Crikey Cumulus, I'd like to know which club that is. There's one turbo at my club and everything, bar, cutting grass, the whole lot is done by the members and I can't think of another club (granted I obviously haven't been to them all) where it's not the same.

I suspect a well-known large club in Hampshire fits the bill.

[thing]

Ah, not a proper gliding club then........:)

[Captain Smithy]

What's wrong with running a bar? *hic*:\

"Paranoid about the weather"... read that as "learning to understand, appreciate and respect weather better".

Go for it, you'll enjoy it. :ok:

Smithy

[cumulusrider]

Synopsis: Just a quick heads up for those of you not in soaring mode yet!

While the next couple of days are likely to be blue and soarable to 2500 feet, Wednesday is currently looking like the first reasonable day of the season. It is not without complications, but basically there is a reasonable north-westerly flow, 20-25 knots at flying heights. The airmass is a little moist, but should be dry enough for about 4-5 oktas. There is a risk of spread out, but not too bad at the moment. Cloudbases should be at least 3000 feet, quite probably over 3500 feet. Possibly a fair bit of cirrus, but the airmass should be unstable enough for it to be well soarable underneath any top cover anyway. I think there is a reasonable chance of wave from Wales if you go north-west from Lasham.
---------------------------------------
Temperatures: Max/Min -> 10C/2C, Dewpoint -> 2C

Wind strength/direction: 16 knots/300 degrees

Cloud base/thermal top: 3400 feet

Thermal strength: 3 knots

Thermal start/finish: 1100/1700

Visibility: >21000 metres
Many thanks to Pete Masson.

The above forcast is produced on a regular basis throughout the soaring season by a team of experts within the club.
If you call being paranoid about the weather being interested enough to try and understand it sufficiently to make the best use of it within the limited summer. Guilty as charged


I am pleased that CAT5 enjoys being so negative as he stated in his last offering.

[cats_five]

I am pleased that CAT5 enjoys being so negative as he stated in his last offering.

I'm not negative - that's just your reading of it. BTW offering that forecast pretty much nails your club. And last time I flew there I was so optimistic (so was the CFI) about the weather I ended up in a field near Didcot. It was a good day, there were 10 other gliders in fields as well, and no-one broke anything or hurt themselves. I didn't even have to pay to get out of the field!

[mary meagher]

Elsewhere, sadly, on this forum, the decline and morbid state of a flying club near Glasgow. Followed by comments on the structure of a flying club that enables it to survive an economic downturn; namely, if your club hasn't got a social side so people enjoy coming to it and just yakking with their mates, well perhaps it deserves to decline.

What we are yakking about of course is flying, so we do have to practice it at every opportunity to have the adventures worth telling...Last Sunday an instructor invited me to come along for a test flight, he let me do the airtow to 2,000'. After that, the acceleration to near VNE, the spin to the left followed by an incorrect recovery demo, which results in a spin to the right, but what really cleared out my sinus passages was the 3.5 g steep turn.....arrg! And then he let me play with it again, here it was first week in March, and 3 knot thermals in streets! We didn't have to come down, but other people were waiting to use the K13, so this time I spun it down, more gently.

After a flight like that, you don't really mind helping out on the ground for a while.

[cats_five]

After a flight like that, you don't really mind helping out on the ground for a while.

After a flight like that I would be changing my undies! Spinning makes me feel ill, it always has, except the one time we did it at 12,000'.

[BackPacker]

I was looking at the sky over Amsterdam last Sunday and it was one of those "wish I was up there" moments indeed.

At about one o'clock the streets started to appear. They were gone again around four.

[CISTRS]

During a period of unemployment from a "proper job", I once became a paid professional winch driver for a gliding club located on top of a Cotswold near Stroud. Suffice it to say that that job was (strangely) considered untouchable by many of more affluent club members.

Driving the winch eventually becomes an art - controlling the aircraft's speed by assessment of the bow in the cable, and flying him in the last stages of the launch like a kite.

Make a point of flying from as many sites as you can. You will become so aware of weather and topographic effects, sea-breeze fronts, ridge curl-over...

It is very time consuming but very rewarding. :ok:

[mary meagher]

Hey, Backpacker, do you suppose we could have followed those cloud streets all the way to Amsterdam?

I did declare a cross channel flight once, from North Hill in Devon - but chickened out. Friend of mine has done it - Gary McKirdy. Trouble with doing the crossing is then you have to get the glider back home. Now that's another story.....

[BackPacker]

I wasn't paying all that much attention but it looks like the streets were roughly N-S. So not all that great for crossing the channel.

Then again, I haven't been more than 5km from home base yet, so who am I to tell you whether you could cross the channel or not?:sad:

I do have my first written glider exam this Saturday though, so it may not be too long before I start doing x-countries without the benefit of a fan up front.

[thing]

The first one you do will be the most memorable. Breaking the 'umbilical' of being within gliding range of the airfield is never to be forgotten. The first one I did was for my Silver and I can remember every minute of it. Enjoy. Incidentally, I just signed up today for my PPL so I'm going to be a beginner again too. It will seem strange going cross country with a fan in front........what's it like flying in a straight line?

[Heady1977]

I've been aiming at doing my gliders license for the last three years - even posted on the topic once here previously. Even bought and read the study books.

However, have yet to be in one place long enough to do anything other than think (or read) about it.

I'm sorry to bend this thread - but I may have a possibility at being in Poland for work for a duration long enough to do something more than think about it.

The question I have is - if I put the time in to get the license in Poland could I use the license in the UK or would I have to convert it to a UK license? If so what would be the limitations or issues?

[BackPacker]

what's it like flying in a straight line?

Boring, eventually. At least, after having done an aerobatics course and some competitions (and of course some glider flying), straight and level flying doesn't have much appeal to me anymore. It's become more of a method of getting somewhere (where I need the plane) than an aim in itself.

Oh, and in powered flying if you look backwards you can just see the burned remains of your euro/dollar/pound bills exit the exhaust.:{

[chrisN]

Heady, Hi.

First, there is no official (CAA-issued, internationally recognised) UK glider pilot licence. We fly gliders without needing one in this country, any more than you need a yacht master’s certificate to take out a rowing or sailing boat.

Second, experience gained elsewhere will stand you in good stead in the UK, subject to check rides and refresher training if you need it. If you get as far as having a licence abroad, I would expect it to be convertible to a UK licence when we have one.

There will be a UK licence when EASA FCL comes into play, 2012-2015 (as far as one can tell at present). People who already have sufficient gliding experience and qualifications by 2012 will have some sort of “grandfather” right and be granted a licence during the transition period.

The right experience is probably (IMHO – not seen anything official) to be at least Bronze, more likely Bronze plus cross-country endorsement, and possibly after at least doing one solo cross country flight of say 50km. It might need as much as Silver – all the above, plus gain of height of 1000m and duration flight of 5 hours – but I doubt it, as that would be more that a PPL has to do for a power licence.

Look at the BGA website if you want more info on these things (Bronze, Silver etc. are peculiar to gliding).

(Notwithstanding my first paragraph above, don’t get confused if you read about the BGA Licence. There is one, but it is not CAA-issued, nor internationally recognised – it was created in the hope of the latter, but has not worked in France for example, as I understand it. We have to get a temporary licence to fly in several countries abroad. That will no longer be needed when we all have EASA licences – probably the only benefit of this whole sorry EASA bureaucracy and added cost without added safety.)

Chris N

[Heady1977]

Thanks much appreciated.

I was not aware of the up-coming EASA FCL issues and complications.

Might be just the thing to push me into action.

[Poeli]

I've decided: I'm also going to start gliding again!:ok:

[BackPacker]

I was just reading about this subject yesterday. In the Netherlands, exam authorization has been delegated to the KNVvL for gliding. Their exam is supposedly ICAO compliant, so what they issue at the moment is an ICAO compliant GPL which should be valid for flight worldwide.

Indeed, with EASA around the corner, this is going to change. There will be a LAPL(G) (Light Aeroplane Pilot License) and a SPL (Sailplane Pilots License). LAPL is the new, generic, Euro-wide sub-ICAO license for light aircraft, and the SPL is ICAO compliant and thus valid worldwide.

The theory and practical requirements for both will be the same, the only difference is the medical. SPL will require an EASA class II (identical to a PPL today) but the LAPL(G) will have less requirements (self declaration in combination with a GP visit.)

Theory requirements will change compared to the current ICAO GPL. Instead of six, there are now nine exams. Four of these overlap with the current PPL syllabus. Actually, it seems these four will be common to all variants of the LAPL, including (G), (A) and (M). The other five have the same title as their current PPL counterparts but are specific to gliding.

Practical requirements will change as well and are indeed leaning more towards the Bronze/Silver qualifications. Although they don't fully implement those.

Specifically, here is the full list of requirements for the LAPL(G) and SPL, at least according to the website I found below. (Translation and comments are mine though.)
- 16 years of age
- Minimum 15 hours flight experience (minimum 3 hr solo, 12 hr dual) and 45 starts (doesn't specify solo starts though)
- A 50 km solo x-country, or 100 km with an instructor
- At most 10 hours on a TMG (I assume they mean at most 10 hours can be counted towards license requirements)
- Minimum of 10 hours experience after getting your passenger endorsement. (I don't understand this at all. To me, this implies that you are allowed to fly with passengers before you get the license. That can't be right.)
- If you have another type of license, you can count 10% of those hours, to a maximum of 6 hours, towards the experience requirements
- You have to do the theory- and practical bits of the course at an ATO (approved training organization) and they determine whether you are ready for the exam.
- You have to have theoretical knowledge at the ICAO level through a pass in the nine theoretical exams. All theoretical exams must be finished within 18 months after the first pass.
- All theory plus practical exams need to be finished within 24 monts after passing the first exam.
- The authorized start methods are initially only those that were done during the exam. (You need endorsements for other start methods.)

And strangely, I could not find any conversion path from an ICAO compliant, Dutch-issued GPL to an EASA LAPL(G) or GPL.

All this comes from the following page, which is unfortunately in Dutch:

zweefvliegopleiding (http://www.zweefvliegopleiding.nl/LAPL%28S%29/index.html)

[Piltdown Man]

This is gliding (http://vimeo.com/19525187). Apply yourself and you'll be having this sort of fun in a year or so. Don't expect to be able to compete with these people (for a while) but you can expect to have as much fun as them. And once you get into cross-country and "interesting" soaring you'll often find that there is another "club" inside the main club who will help you progress. They'll do anything to add to their numbers because as the group gets bigger, so the fun gets larger.

PM

[tggzzz]

What we are yakking about of course is flying, so we do have to practice it at every opportunity to have the adventures worth telling...
....
After a flight like that, you don't really mind helping out on the ground for a while. My "winter refresher" a couple of weeks ago was a rather enjoyable 7 minute flight


sitting on the ground, we saw a pair of buzzards fly over
one minute later we were in the right place, but couldn't see them
so we meandered slowly upwards in a thermal until a bird flew past us
we simultaneously realised it wasn't a buzzard but was a red kite, the first I've seen
we turned and followed it, slowly overtaking it about 15m away (we gazed into each other's eyes...)
then a stall followed by a spin
the instructor took control and only gave control back to me when we were not far off doing a chandelle
and intimated I should "get out of that" and "get us back to the airfield"

I did help out at the launch point after that, but I felt as if I was 6" off the ground. Glorious.

[BabyBear]

As another who has thought about and taken up gliding I am currently considering the purchase of a GPS unit. Is there a unit that fits well with power (VFR) and gliding, that is compatible with recorders? Would rather not have to buy 2.

Cheers,

BB

[BackPacker]

that is compatible with recorders?

Do you mean an official data logger, to be used for recording various achievements? I would assume that these data loggers are sealed units somehow, with anti-tamper protection and whatnot, and not reliant on external GPS input.

[B4aeros]

Modern flight recorders come with their own internal GPS - it's quite common to have your navigation software running on a PDA use the GPS data from the recorder.

There are still some old school EW recorders around that need to be paired with an equally old Garmin, but who wants to use an old GPS III these days?

[BabyBear]

Now I am more confused!!

I have indeed asked at the club about the EW units which I have been advised require external GPS input.

My initial thoughts were Skydemon with a compatible logger, if possible. However if technology has moved on then all the better.

Can you recommend a logger and navigation software that works well?


Thanks,

BB

[cats_five]

As another who has thought about and taken up gliding I am currently considering the purchase of a GPS unit. Is there a unit that fits well with power (VFR) and gliding, that is compatible with recorders? Would rather not have to buy 2.

If you want something that's acceptable for all gliding badge flights you need an IGC approved logger. These have a pressure sensor for altitude (GPS altitude isn't accurate enough), produce a secure trace (it has a checksum included) and are also secure devices - if you open them up that is recorded in the trace, they have to go back to the maker to be resealed.

http://www.fai.org/gliding/system/files/igc_approved_frs.pdf

The EW Microrecorder is popular amongst those of us buying new now - it will run for a long time on it's own batteries and can supply the NMEA and 5v out to drive a moving map on a PDA.

An IGC Flarm is also popular, but it requires an external power supply and stops without one.

Neither of these have a built-in display - you have to use something else for that. If you look round glider cockpits you will find all manner of devices and software used.

If you aren't interested in badge flights or can borrow an IGC logger for those then the new Aware thingie might be what you are looking for, though when I took one outside on a bright day I wasn't that impressed with how easy to read the screen is. I gather it also gives rather a lot of alarms if you are thermalling!

However you might wear your welcome a bit thin if you have to keep borrowing an IGC logger for your Gold distance flight (300 km). It takes most people several attempts to do this.

[BabyBear]

Thanks cats_five, I have had a look at the EW microrecorder and it looks like the tool for the job.

Being pretty well clueless about this technology can I ask if there is such a thing as a basic PDA that would run well with it. I am not particularly interested in the whole range of functionality (and associated cost) that most PDAs have, I would be happy with a cost effective solution for the sole purpose of being used with the recorder on gliding and power flights.

Cheers,

BB

[cats_five]

If you look at the PDAs being used they are mostly quite old, as the screens are easier to see in daylight. Suggest you look at what people are using where you fly, as having a local 'expert' can be very useful. See if they will let you 'test drive' in a car.

Note that if your PC doesn't have a serial port you may need to provide one for older PDAs. USB/serial converters seem to have a patchy track record, internal cards (for desktop PCs) and PCI cards (for laptops) seem to generally work properly. And if the PDA will write a declaration suitable for the EW to an SD card that's good as well - you use the PDA to write the declaration, put the card in the EW and turn it on. The other approach is to simply put the correct pilot & glider details in the EW and do paper declarations. Remember, the latest one is the valid one.

Note also you want a PDA that takes 5v in (I have a very old one that takes 3.3v!), as that's what the Microrecorder supplies out for a PDA, so long as it's connected to the glider's power supply. For some bizarre reason the Flarm I have supplies 3.3v out!

[TerryWalsh]

I use an EWD with a Garmin 12XL all connected to an IPAQ HX4700 PDA using a cable provided for this purpose by Severn Valley sailplanes. I run free LK8000 software on the PDA. The IPAQ cost me about £50 on ebay, there are usually plenty on there.

If you use an EW micorecorder you can also get a suitable cable from Severn Valley I believe and then you do not need a seperate GPS.

The cable I use also includes a 12V to 5V converter to run the IPAQ from the glider batteries.

[chrisN]

Baby Bear, I don't think you have provided enough information for the most useful advice you could be given.

Are you going to be flying in a club glider, in which you will take your own equipment with you, or a privately owned glider of your own, in which you can install whatever you want?

Are you looking for equipment with self-contained batteries, or can you feed the units from an existing battery on the glider?

If the things are going to go into club gliders, how are you going to hold them in place so that you can see and use them?

It is not only a question of the equipment itself, there is also the need for connecting wires with the right terminals, and a DC/DC transformer if you need to convert from a 12 V supply which runs the logger to a 3.3 or 5.5 V supply which runs the display unit.

For what it's worth, my display unit is an iPaq 3850, which gives a good sunlight readable colour display. You can buy them second-hand on eBay.

If you are prepared to spend the money on an EW logger, why on earth not spend a small amount extra on a Flarm with logging capability, and have some protection against collisions as well? (Gliding collisions cost 20 lives over a 23 year period. It is one of the big three hazards in recent gliding accident records.)

You can download free gliding software rather than spending a lot of money on commercial packages. Displayed on a PDA such as the iPaq, these things show moving map, give airspace alerts, and display/calculate other things which are useful for gliding.

Hope that helps.

Chris N

[BabyBear]

Thanks again all.

chrisN - I am currently flying club gliders, however this is likely to change with me buying a share.

You are right that I have not given much consideration to the mounting or connecting of the device as my objective was to try and identify the best option for serving my gliding and power needs. I do not want to buy Skydemon, for example, only to discover it is not compatible with gliding and have to incur additional costs.

BB

[RatherBeFlying]

One of our members was demonstrating a Mio car GPS that he jailbreaked and installed LK8000 on. He also has a generic car GPS set up the same way and was offering them for $100 and $125.

[B4aeros]

Indeed.

The trouble with PDAs is that nobody makes them anymore; even if you get an old one off ebay, getting the power/data cables & connections sorted is a major pain.

As RBF points out, the fashionable thing to do these days is buy a car satnav with Win CE as it's operating system & change the settings so that it loads programs from an SD card. Have a look at this Skydemon forum (http://www.skydemon.aero/forums/Forum5-1.aspx). It seems that you can get software to run on many cheap satnavs simply by changing the name of the yoursoftware.exe file to cheapsatnav.exe & then saving it to an SD card.

Once you've made it work with SkyDemon, you should be able to repeat the process & run gliding nav. software on it as well.

I'm sure that SkyDemon is compatible with gliding, it's just not as useful as dedicated gliding software. The best solution is a single device that runs multiple software (and a separate logger).