Prior Permission Required

[The Dead Side]

Whenever I've flown VFR cross country, I've always rang ahead in advance to be greeted with a brief of any unlikely approach procedures and the latest weather and conditions.

I was flying today, tuning into local frequencies just to keep a listen out for their circuits etc., whereupon G-XXXX requests PPR in the circuit to land.

Is it common to fly and just land at an airfield without PPR? I realise most airfields will publish such a need to ask, however I'm wondering how many ask before takeoff, if at all.

[Russell Gulch]

It's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Quite a few airfields are happy for it to be done on RT, but arguably once you're in the circuit, you've really left it a little late. Sounds like somebody was making some political point or other.

G

[The Flying Chicken]

Depends where you're going and who you know.
With the instructor hat on, always request PPR for every airfield, or at least, try to get PPR - Gives the student an idea of what to expect.
With my "jolly" hat on, I know a number of airfields that'll take me with no issues at all with or without a call on the radio. But then, I do know who operates the airfield/strips and normally places I wouldn't take most students.

[Katamarino]

PPR always makes me laugh. It's like having to phone the supermarket each time you go shopping to get permission to park in their car park.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Always wondered what the "prior" refers to. Prior to take-off? To joining the circuit?

For those thinking it ridiculous: the one time I had NOT called before take-off, I found the place rented out for some commercial event and the runway cluttered with booths and people. Of course I had a plan B, there was never a real problem, but I had no plan C so I was on the lucky side.

Edit: over here, many aerodromes explicitly require "PPR by telephone" - check Recreatief Vliegveld Grimbergen - EBGB - Grimbergen Airfield (http://www.rvg.be) for just one example - and since we're supposed to NOT use our mobiles while airborne there's few options left.

[IO540]

PPR always makes me laugh. It's like having to phone the supermarket each time you go shopping to get permission to park in their car park.

Yes, and about as meaningful in practice in the case of large airfields.

PNR/Customs is more meaningful: the policeman is not normally based there. Of course, they could see the incoming flight plans, which is how UK Designated Customs airport Customs decide whether to turn up or not, but most are not that smart :)

[cats_five]

But for airfields operating under the 28-day rule or other restrictions it's vital that they know who is coming and going so they don't exceed it - or rather you don't accidentally exceed it for them.

[englishal]

Any airfield that doesn't request "PPR by phone" I don't bother calling before and just turn up and ask to land. That way if we decide to go elsewhere, no big deal. There are lots of airfields around that don't require PPR by phone (Examples: Old Sarum, Compton Abbas, Dunkerswell, Bembridge, Shoreham etc....) and if you do phone them they just say...rightyo see ya later.

It has onluy caught me out once, on a flight to Bembridge a few weeks ago and we'd missed the Notam of being closed :O:} Never mind, we just went elsewhere. Might be worthwhile if you are travelling a long distance, beyond bladder diverting range at any rate !

[172driver]

PPR always makes me laugh. It's like having to phone the supermarket each time you go shopping to get permission to park in their car park

Quite. In any case, it's largely a UK thing (other then the customs/immigration PNR, but then again, that also pertains mostly to/from the UK, at least in Europe).

[IO540]

But for airfields operating under the 28-day rule or other restrictions it's vital that they know who is coming and going so they don't exceed it - or rather you don't accidentally exceed it for them.I suppose the owner of such a private facility, trying hard to stay below the NIMBY radar, needs to make a decision on whether to publicise it at all. If I had a strip operating like that I would not publish it in any directory for the 10 years it needs to run. I would just invite mates of mine to drop in so I can build up the movements log, for the subsequent approval.

You can't just park in somebody else's drive, so you can't just drop into a strip which you see from the air.

A lot of southern European airports are PPR, Schengen or not. Just look at Greece. Of course there are loads that aren't but it's a pity to throw away the utility of those that are on the basis that one doesn't need to fly there.

I almost never fly to any airport - other than some big H24 ones which I know are not PPR - unless I can contact it beforehand, or the person I am meeting has done so. In the UK it's just a simple phone call.

[WestWind1950]

It is not largely a UK thing, there are many so-called "special airfields" in Germany with PPR and most/all can be asked via radio, but you may get refused.

The reasons are many, for example: the field might have few parking positions and thus they won't let you land if those are already filled; or repair work (or event, as mentioned above... ppr fields don't usually need to NOTAM) is going on; landing conditions are poor (=flooded or snow), and so on.

It's always sensible to call in advance, but if you leave yourself an alternative, there is usually no problem to call in via radio and ask, unless, of course, a prior phone call is specifically requested.

[Miroku]

Well I for one always phone ahead. That way I can find out the weather, which runway is in use and anything else which could be useful.

[NigelOnDraft]

PPR actually covers a multitude of sins... you didn't see/check/missed the NOTAM re the Air Display - they've got no fuel today - they're closed today because someone is sick etc.

I try to PPR except for airfields I know well. After all, the land is usually private property of some form or other, and it is only a common courtesy.

As above, if people "encourage" others that PPR when requested should be disregarded, some will not know here to draw the line e.g. private strips.

so they don't exceed it - or rather you don't accidentally exceed it for them. If I had a strip operating like that I would not publish it in any directory for the 10 years it needs to run. I would just invite mates of mine to drop in so I can build up the movements log, for the subsequent approval.Just to be clear:
To get the "approval" via CLU will require you to exceed the 28day "limit" for each of the 10 (consecutive) years
I am not 100% sure you then "need" a subsequent approval - that requires notifying the authorities with all sorts of implications including rates :(
If you do then go for PP the "restrictions" will probably be more onerous than before you ever told anybody
NoD

[DX Wombat]

:uhoh:It's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.Don't try that at Duxford. There is often a lot going on at Duxford and the staff also like to know that you have had a full briefing before you set off. If you don't ask BEFORE you set off the only way you will land there is in a dire emergency. Having said all that, it's a great place to visit with two well maintained runways and other facilities and all the staff I have met have been really friendly and helpful. :ok:

[Deeply Concerned]

Some years ago I did so part time instructing at a small grass airfield that welcomed visitors on PPR only. The idea was to gain some idea of the visitors experience before commiting, effectivly a screening process. It's amazing how many PPLs who learned at a large airfield have serious trouble with 600m of wet grass. Every year there would be an aircraft in the hedge.

There are other hazards with grass airfields in winter. Nose wheel aircraft on water logged ground isn't a good idea if you don't know in advance. If PPR is asked there's a reason, please comply.

[Katamarino]

I agree that PPR is valid in some situations; such as a private strip with operating limitations. However, it seems to be applied with a ridiculously broad brush; most of the places I have called for PPR have just said "yes, no problem", and when asked if there is anything in particular I need to know, they say no! Then why are you asking for PPR at all, at a large, well equipped, airfield?

I know the wonderful USA is often pointed to as an example, but I have flown to hundreds of airfields over there, and have only encountered one, single airfield, where PP was R. Apart from a love of bureaucracy and rules, I see nothing that rules the majority of Europe's PPR airfields out as particularly different...

[sammypilot]

It is common sense to telephone ahead. Firstly there may be a Notam you have missed (see above posting.) Secondly you get an update on the weather. In the U.K. as we all know a matter of a few miles or unusual local conditions can cause huge variations. Recently we were going to go to Garston Farm. Brize and Lyneham were both giving CAVOK but a check with the field's owner produced the response that they were 300 metres in fog caused by the fields elevation. There may also be a special briefing that you need. Finally knowing the runway in use gives you a chance to plan your approach by looking up the Plate.

[englishal]

Of course the runway can change during your flight and then you'd be screwed eh?

Fine for 'small strips' or first time, but is there really any need to phone an "international airport" if you want to drop in there? As the americans would say on the phone if you called them "Eh? It's an airport, of course you can land here ???!?!?!" :D

[DBo]

A little while ago in CHIRP there was a whine by somebody who hadn't phoned for PPR and found on arrival that the airfield was closed for 30 minutes during the day for an aerobatic display. Being a pilot he was outraged by their actions...

If I'm going for a bimble to somewhere I know and I either have alternate destinations or don't mind just flying back then I may not phone first*. If I really want to land there, or I need to get fuel then I'll ring before I take off.

Dave


* only applies to airfields - I always phone strips.

[xrayalpha]

OK, here goes - about to be shot down in flames!

I thought "PPR - what is that all about. Don't have it in the States and flying is good over there."

Now I own a small grass airfield.

What we don't have over here are "disclaimers". They have them in the States.

What we have here is a "duty of care".

Now, in many cases, what that duty is is not specified. In aviation, if you are a licensed airfield, there are some specs. Things like "twice daily runway inspection", etc. Even that may cause probelsm - think Paris and Concord.

If you are unlicensed - even if only for a tea break! - then other matters come in.

If you choose not to operate in the same manner as a "licensed field" then you may have to justify why.

If, like any hotel or pub car park, you want to restrict liability for, say, theft of a GPS from a parked aircraft while owner is off having lunch, then how do you do it?

My lawyers say, for a contract and conditions to be enforceable then the person must have a chance to refuse to enter the contract. That could be a bit difficult once they are on the ground and parked!

So I am now looking at PPR online. Quite simply, it will allow me to limit liability.

If people go online, accept the T&Cs, then we are happy for them to fly in. If they don't "self PPR", then they cannot complain.

Sorry about the way it is going in the UK (well, we operate under Scots law), but the alternative is to shut down.

And after last year's expereinces, I am not wanting to deal with insurance hassles ever again!

[ShyTorque]

Fine for 'small strips' or first time, but is there really any need to phone an "international airport" if you want to drop in there? As the americans would say on the phone if you called them "Eh? It's an airport, of course you can land here ???!?!?!"

Why not try it at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted. Then report back here and tell us how you got on

[IO540]

So I am now looking at PPR online

Very smart :ok:

If I was running a strip and opening it to outsiders the thing which would worry me most is somebody having a prop strike.

Airfields work really hard to wash their hands of liability for that, but they are liable, and are vulnerable to either the owner/pilot going after them, or the insurer (having paid out) going after them.

This is a particular bugbear of mine, having had a prop strike and having seen how the system works.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Things I've found out when phoning for PPR...

- The runway was waterlogged

- There was an airshow going on (no, I don't know why it wasn't NOTAMED)

- There was an aerobatic competition going on inside their ATZ, and to avoid flying through the box, I needed to approach from a particular direction.

- There was no fuel

- They have a problem with a particular neighbour, and would appreciate my not flying over him today.


My flight preparation typically takes 30-60 minutes; the cheapest aeroplane I fly costs about £40/hr. A PPR phone call normally takes 2 minutes and costs about 10p.

Why on earth shouldn't I phone for PPR?

G

[IO540]

Why on earth shouldn't I phone for PPR?

1) Nobody takes the call

2) Overseas airport - nobody speaks English despite it being International. Only ATC need to speak English.

[chevvron]

In the UK, if you land anywhere other than an airport with a 'Public' licence, you are legally required to obtain prior permission (although this can in many cases be on RTF). Filing a flight plan does not constitute requesting prior permission. For instance, if you file Farnborough as an alternate over a weekend, you will probably be refused permission to land unless you declare an emergency due to their weekend movements restriction.

[IO540]

Filing a flight plan does not constitute requesting prior permission.

I wonder why not.

They can reply to it easily enough, via the AFTN or to the contact details supplied.

[FREDAcheck]

NigelOnDraft, DXWombat, Deeply Concerned, Sammypilot, xrayalpha, Ghengis and chevvron suggested between them 12 different reasons why the airfield might want you to have PPR. Reasons that relate to potential risk, inconvenience or cost (to others, as well as to the happy-go-lucky pilot that comes swanning by).

Reasons suggested against asking for PPR include that they might not answer the phone (Doh!), they might not speak English (I'm told many do in the UK), forgiveness is easier than permission (not really - if you cause danger or inconvenience, they probably won't forgive you!), and that it makes Katamarino laugh.

Very finely balanced argument, I'd say.

[chevvron]

Example: late '70s, Blackbushe, notified as PPR.
The airfield was NOTAMMED closed to all aircraft due to a drag race meeting on the main runway.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.
Doug Arnold got someone in to answer the radio for subsequent drag race meetings.

[Fuji Abound]

I was bimbling along going no where in particular once and thought I would stop at an inviting airfield.

G-XXXX to your south, thought I might drop in .. .. ..

Ground have you requested PPR

G-XXXX no, but I am now

Ground sorry you cant!

G-XXXX if I had 'phoned could I

Ground Maybe

G-XXXX OK I will 'phone

Phone G-XXXX requesting PPR expected in 15 minutes

Ground Phone Have you been before

Phone Yes

Ground No problem

You have guessed it 'phone call made from the aircraft ;)

True story.

[niknak]

Manners?
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?

Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.

[Fuji Abound]

Manners?
Common Courtesy?
Consideration for others?

Three factors often missing in all walks of todays society and too often disregarded completely by the ever expanding "why should I care?" contingent in todays GA community.


I am not sure, although I agree sadly missing.

Where is the lack of manners asking a field if you can land over the radio?

If they dont want you to, go away, and if you havent 'phoned first dont assume you can land - seems simple enough to me.

We seem to forget the sort of flying many of us do should also be "fun". We dont always fly to get from A to B with a particular purpose in mind. What has happened to the days of setting off for an amble, getting half way and thinking why dont I call into x?

I also sail. You dont PPR with marinas which are almost always privately owned. What is the difference?

[ShyTorque]

I also sail. You dont PPR with marinas which are almost always privately owned. What is the difference?

It's more obvious if the tide is out, they don't have to NOTAM it.

[Fuji Abound]

Well actually not all true.

Marinas are a lot more costly to visit than most airports. You even pay to tie up to a bouy in an estuary. As to tides yes fortunately these are predictable but there can be other issues with entering marinas - entrances closed or restricted due to dredging for example. I guess it is just a different culture.

[FREDAcheck]

NOTAMs distribute aeronautical info in a systematic way so you don't have to call the airport.Not always used by UK unlicensed airfields.

Talking on the phone before setting out allows a better briefing, including any topical information, without tying up a radio channel explaining noise sensitive areas or whatever. Maybe they want to point you to a web site to see a map. Bit late if you call when you're in the air.

Like Fuji, I do sometimes decide in mid-air to go somewhere, but always ask "Is PPR on the radio OK?" or some such, and be prepared to go away if not.

The bottom line: airfields are generally private property, and have the right to require PPR by phone. They may not mind if you come along without PPR, but why take the risk if you know before you set out where you're going?

[BackPacker]

I have no problem with PPR, but what's the deal with having to "book out" by phone? Why is my initial call to AFIS or A/G "PH-ABC requesting startup for a VFR departure to XXXX, 2 POB, pilot in command is BackPacker" not good enough?

I was at Blackbushe once, in the actual office (portacabin actually) which had the big black "C" on yellow background on it, and I had to phone from that portacabin to somewhere else to leave my details. The big "C", PPR, FPL and GAR notwithstanding.

[englishal]

Why not try it at Heathrow, Gatwick, Stansted. Then report back here and tell us how you got on
No thank you, I can't afford it...But two things. A friend of mine did it in a King Air. It was a medical flight and their destination was fogged and and after trying everywhere else they decided to go into LHR. It was just a call to ATC and that was it. I am sure they paid for the privilege of course, but that wasn't their concern.

Secondly I have done it into LAX in the USA. Just requested IFR clearance into 25L at LAX and that was it. Paid $20 for the privilege at the FBO. If you have a helicopter, you can just fly VFR and land on the roof of the international terminal (for free I believe).

Catalina charges $20 landing fee but you still don't need PPR, you just rock up and tell them you're going to land. If you did call the man in the tower, he'd give you the "Of course you can land, it is an airport isn't it?" line ;) Santa Monica collect landing fees if they feel like it....

Of course if it is a private strip you're landing on then manners dictate you phone up beforehand. But if it is an "airport" then why bother. If they have ATIS linked to the phone (like Shoreham) I'll phone that first just to check the relevant info but wouldn't bother with PPR.....

[Katamarino]

That's because you are only flying into Public airfields.

I am fully aware of this, but thanks for pointing out the obvious. My point is that if the thousands and thousands of public airports in the USA can operate safely without requiring a phone call for every visit, I refuse to believe that not a single one of the many PPR airports in Europe could do the same. Indeed, several airports in the UK do so quite happily.

[Katamarino]

The airfield was NOTAMMED closed to all aircraft due to a drag race meeting on the main runway.
STILL a clown in a Seneca landed even though the runway was clearly obstructed with a start line gantry, the pits, and dragsters travelling at up to 200mph. He'd called on the radio, got no reply so assumed Reg was at lunch and landed anyway, but the crux is he hadn't attempted to make contact for PPR.


I would argue that this is not a case for PPR, but a case for people to read the NOTAMs (and properly punishing those who don't). I know UK/Europe has a love affair with making the rules cater for the lowest common denominator of idiot, though...

[xrayalpha]

FREDAcheck wrote:

"(Notams) Not always used by UK unlicensed airfields."

Hey, another point for PPR - unlicensed airfields CAN'T issue Notams. Tried and asked for an Open Day with aerobatics, power kites etc and was told "No, you are unlicensed".

Strangely, kites for bird of prey training etc ARE notamed! But not ones on runways!!

Don't you love the paperwork!!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I would argue that this is not a case for PPR, but a case for people to read the NOTAMs (and properly punishing those who don't).

There's no relation between the conditions of use for a particular a/d and the requirement (by law AND by common sense) to consult NOTAMS.
If anyone allows us to use their airfield then certainly they have a right to impose some conditions, and instead of grumbling we should be happy to comply, lest we loose one more airfield.

[englishal]

unlicensed airfields CAN'T issue Notams
Our airfield does/did and we're unlicensed!

(Edit: under nav warnings, not airfield notams)

[IO540]

There are very few real cases for PPR. I can think of:

- A private strip, needs to issue a permission (obviously - would you park in somebody else's drive?)

- An airfield which is public but which has had issues with big fly-ins. Mind you, anybody organising a fly-in to some airport and not contacting the airport first (to check apron space etc) is a Grade A d***head.

- PPR/PNR for Customs

- PPR because it is military. Lots of Greek and Turkish examples here, although they tend to allow local-reg planes to fly there without it, which shows it is just a job creation scam

Otherwise, it tends to be a job creation / self-important exercise.

I agree people should read notams but we have the "UK GA disease" to contend with, where a large % of pilots do not use (or won't use) the internet, fly with the transponder siwtched off, etc. This probably ensures a lot of the PPR airfields continue doing it.

[SkyHawk-N]

Also ...

What about airfields with noise-abatement procedures?

What about airfields like Duxford who may have regular display practice taking place?

What about airfields that are not attended all the time?

What about airfields with restrictions on the number of movements allowed?

There are loads of GOOD reasons for PPR to be required. I've had one or two issues in the past but obtaining PPR has never been a problem and in 99% of cases I could understand why it is required..

[Fuji Abound]

SkyHawk

I dont object to PPR at all, what I do object to is those that absolutely require PPR by 'phone before setting off.

I have no issue with a field stating if PPR is not requested by telephone there is no guarantee that a landing will be granted - that would be reasonable and clear.

I gave my example because I think it illustrates how silly it is to refuse PPR over the radio simply because the rules say so. That would be and has always been my only grumble.

I appreciate the field might have certain procedures in operation on certain days and an inflight briefing would not make sense. However, the question only needs to be asked have you been before are you familiar with out xyz procedures. If the answer is yes, accept the request, if it is no by all means send the aircraft on its way.

At least grant that most pilots have a modicum of common sense and lets not be weighed down but yet another unnecessary "rule".

Headcorn is a wonderful example of how things can work. There is more often that not lots going on, enough that I guess some places would turn every visitor away unless they had been thoroughly briefed. At Headcorn they dont and it works wonderfully well.

[SkyHawk-N]

One of the small number of PPR issues that I mentioned was a refusal to land while in the air after I had obtained PPR by phone. Before I took off I made sure I phoned ahead to get PPR but when I was approaching the airfield, some 40 minutes flight time later, the tower suddenly had no record of my call and refused the landing. As you can imagine this was slightly annoying, you can't really argue/convey your point using RT in the same way you can by using a phone.
This was probably just a one-off issue but it gave me a flavour of what a refusal (for whatever reason) of PPR using the radio would be like and I can honestly say that I would prefer a refusal by phone any day of the week.

[DX Wombat]

There is one other, important reason which hopefully none of us will ever need - SAR. If something catastrophic happens and no radio call can be made, or possibly heard, (no matter how unlikely this may be) then the destination airfield has an approximate ETA and likely track to the destination. Whilst this may not be completely accurate it does at least give a starting point and rough guide to where to start looking.

[englishal]

What about airfields with noise-abatement procedures?
Comes down to proper pre-flight planning. Our airfield has lots of noise abaitment issues but it is explained on their website and Pooleys etc...Of course if I came across an airfield that I didn't understand the procedures then I'd call them to clarify. PPR not required by phone where I fly from.

One other issue is to do with fire rescue and whether your aeroplane has a BRS fitted apparently...at least that is what a lot of people have asked me when I have called for PPR.

Mind you these days, I'd do like Damyns Hall and have an online PPR form which I can fill out when checking my Notams which prints directly to the 'tower'.

[IO540]

Well, you illustrate the difference between an airfield run to accept traffic, and an airfield run by former ISO 9000 quality managers :)

Speaking of "PPR numbers" this reminds me of Bournemouth, where the "handling" is a man with a mobile phone who claimed to me (face to face) that even aircraft going for maintenance must go through him.

If you forget, as in fact nearly everybody going for maintenance does, ATC ask you for your PPR #, you reply you haven't got it, and they let you land and taxi to the maintenance company..... no big deal.

[Katamarino]

What about airfields with noise-abatement procedures?

Put it in the AIP or on the website, or flight guide?

What about airfields like Duxford who may have regular display practice taking place?

NOTAM it, tell people over the radio, put it on the website...

What about airfields that are not attended all the time?

Who cares? The world is full of unattended airports that do not require PPR.

What about airfields with restrictions on the number of movements allowed?

I agree with this one.


Ultimately, I don't have any problem at all with PPR where there is a sensible reason; but I think in many cases, it's ridiculous and pointless.

[SkyHawk-N]

What about airfields with noise-abatement procedures?

Put it in the AIP or on the website, or flight guide?

Not everyone buys flight guides, not all airfields are in the AIP

What about airfields like Duxford who may have regular display practice taking place?

NOTAM it, tell people over the radio, put it on the website...

Again there is nothing to guarantee that people will read the websites, I can't remember the last time I looked at the website of an airfield I visited. NOTAM? PPR is a lot simpler to administer. Telling people over the radio? PPR would save inconvenience to everyone including the visitor.

What about airfields that are not attended all the time?

Who cares?

Who cares? maybe the person collecting the landing fee? or wanting the aircraft parked in the right location, any number of reasons.

[Katamarino]

Well, if the airfield is not in the AIP, and the pilot does not have a flight guide and has not looked at the website...how would he know that it's PPR at all...?

Many of the reasons that seem to be given for PPR being mandatory are for issues that could easily be addressed by a few lines in whatever location the requirement for PPR is announced!

I have never visited a UK airfield without looking for the website first (of course, some don't have them). The PIC is responsible for briefing himself on the flight; a website is the easiest and most comprehensive way of doing this for many locations. They often have full airfield info, charts about noise abatement, details of special events, and more.

People keep saying "there's no guarantee that pilots will check NOTAMs, read the website, or look in the AIP". If you're the kind of pilot who does none of these, how likely is it you'll carefully follow PPR requirements anyway, or even know about them?

[SkyHawk-N]

By actually speaking to visitors the guys running the airfield, and ultimately responsible for the safe and continued operation of the airfield, know that they understand any local issues and procedures. Without speaking to them there will always be doubt about them knowing the facts.

Another example, at the gliding airfield I was once based at PPR is required. This was to ensure someone would be there to 'help' visitors but the primary reason is to ensure that visitors knew about how the gliding operations worked, no overhead joins, etc. You can attempt to write down on a website this information but it cannot beat actually explaining it in person, and making adjustments to the brief to cover certain short term events. Example, one day they may have some extra activity due to a visiting club, or there may be more cable launches due to no tug pilot, etc.

[Katamarino]

As I say, some places do have valid reasons for PPR (and your gliding site is a great example); what I'm trying to make a point about is places that seem to insist upon it for no good reason.

For example, my PPR briefing for Fairoaks consisted of "Don't fly into the crane thats miles away from the airport, and don't fly into the Heathrow zone". Gosh, thanks, if I hadn't had that briefing I'd have considered busting Heathrow after bouncing off the crane to be plan A...

[FREDAcheck]

As I say, some places to have valid reasons for PPR; what I'm trying to make a point about is places that seem to insist upon it for no good reason.
I quite agree.
For example, my PPR briefing for Fairoaks consisted of "Don't fly into the crane thats miles away from the airport, and don't fly into the Heathrow zone". Gosh, thanks, if I hadn't had that briefing I'd have considered busting Heathrow after bouncing off the crane to be plan A...
What if their insurance (or other legal issue) requires them to brief pilots on each and every occasion? If you come in without that briefing, you might be putting them (and you) in jeopardy if something goes wrong. Unlikely, obviously, but potentially serious and expensive.

I don't think it's fair to disregard the requirements of the owner or operator of an airfield just because I think they're being silly. It's their airfield, not mine.

[IO540]

What if their insurance (or other legal issue) requires them to brief pilots on each and every occasion?I don't think that is likely to be the case. In aviation, you have an airport, you have a pilot who is the Captain, and it is his decision what to do.

The airport has a duty to disclose (by publication via established aviation channels i.e. notams and the AIP) unusually dangerous things.

Are you looking at an insurance policy which stipulates PPR? If so, please post details.

I don't think it's fair to disregard the requirements of the owner or operator of an airfield just because I think they're being silly. It's their airfield, not mine. Correct, on the basis it is their bouncy castle, but we remain entitled to take the micky, where appropriate.

Duxford got a bad reputation for their "phone-only PPR" policy (which I witnessed first hand) and stopped it, a couple of years ago. They lost a lot of business in the meantime.

I have obtained PPR hundreds of times and at least 99% of the time there is no safety-relevant briefing involved. It's just a formality. They may as well knock up a website where you enter your details and it produces a PPR number :ugh: And the ATCO has a red button which he presses when somebody crashes on the runway and blocks it, and the button disconnects mains power from the server :)

Bournemouth could sell PPR numbers for £20 a pop, payable by CC or (hey this is really adventurous) by Paypal. Think of the manpower which would be saved - 1 person at Bournemouth, and 1 person at the accounts office at East Midlands.

[FREDAcheck]

you have a pilot who is the Captain, and it is his decision what to do.
Ah, the "I'm captain and I have the legal right to do whatever I want" argument.
Correct, on the basis it is their bouncy castle, but we remain entitled to take the micky, where appropriate.
Take the mick all you want. And that entitles you to ignore the conditions a service provider sets for use of their service? Or is it the "I'm captain" argument that allows you to ignore them?

[Katamarino]

Ah, the "I'm captain and I have the legal right to do whatever I want" argument.

You do not understand the point that IO540 makes. He is referring to the fact that the flight is the responsibility of the pilot, not the airport owner. hence, the pilot should be responsible for, for example, not flying into cranes that are not in fact anywhere near the airport.

Take the mick all you want. And that entitles you to ignore the conditions a service provider sets for use of their service?

Now you seem to be making things up. Where on this thread did anyone suggest ignoring the requirement if it is in place?

[Jan Olieslagers]

FredACheck, you seem to have a better wording for the thoughts I already posted this morning:

If anyone allows us to use their airfield then certainly they have a right to impose some conditions, and instead of grumbling we should be happy to complyOn second thought, you have also wondered about the cause, and might well be right about size of ego being a factor.

Edit @Katamarino: it is not for the users of a service to judge if its conditions are "in place". You take them, or you leave them and fly elsewhere. Let the market decide.

[Katamarino]

Jan; some people blindly accept rules "because it's the rules". Other, more thoughtful people, will still follow the rules but are perfectly at liberty to question their logic and usefulness...

[Jan Olieslagers]

Agreed to that; but you should differentiate between "rules", coming from authorities, and thus to be basically distrusted BUT open to discussion at least in theory, and "conditions" that originate from private offerers, and are hence beyond discussion.

Rules can't be refused; private offer - and its conditions - can.

[soaringhigh650]

There are very few real cases for PPR.

I completely agree. PPR might also be needed for a really busy public-use airport or special events such that slot bookings are needed to manage capacity.

The NOTAM system is there so that the guy picking up the phone at the airport doesn't have to say "Runway 27 inoperative" and other repeated stuff 1000 times to 1000 callers each day. :ugh:

[Jan Olieslagers]

If the a/d operator does not want to repeat the same message 1000 times, it is their own decision; nobody forced the PPR onto them. If they want to - and I'll admit I have also wondered why they want to, but many do - it is their own decision, and they'll have to live with the consequences.
And again I say: there is no strict relation between consulting the Notams - as every pilot should do - and respecting the terms of use of a service offered privately. As long as they don't give out contradictory information :=

[Heliport]

chevvron In the UK, if you land anywhere other than an airport with a 'Public' licence, you are legally required to obtain prior permission

Can you tell us where that 'legal requirement' can be found? :confused:


H.

[off watch]

Silvaire1 - you must remember that the UK (i.e. CAA) philosophy for light aircraft is totally different to the USA (i.e. FAA).
I am curious to know, however, if all USA airfields operate the way you suggest.
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?

How about just landing the aircraft and finding your own parking spot? Stick it in some corner if necessary.

Can I park in an odd corner there so I don't pay ramp fees ?

The 'booking out' by phone thing is just crazy

When I'm ready to leave can I just call the Tower, get a clearance & go ?

[SkyHawk-N]

How about if there isn't a parking spot (which is almost impossible for me to imagine for a light aircraft - airports are big places)

They're not in the UK. :O

[off watch]

Silvaire1 thanks - makes perfect sense :ok:

[FREDAcheck]

You do not understand the point that IO540 makes. He is referring to the fact that the flight is the responsibility of the pilot, not the airport owner. hence, the pilot should be responsible for, for example, not flying into cranes that are not in fact anywhere near the airport.
Of course, but it's not the pilot's responsibility alone. If there is a hazard then the airport operator may have a responsibility (and liability) if a pilot has an accident.

The argument that a pilot has ultimate responsibility for safety is not a reason for disregarding conditions that an airport operator imposes on use of the airport, unless the safety of the flight is jeopardised. Phoning for PPR hardly puts a flight in danger!

I think the requirement for PPR is a bit over-done, and if I change my mind in the air then I might call on spec and see if they'll take PPR over the radio. But if I do know where I'm headed, and they want PPR by phone, then I phone. Why on earth not do so?

[IO540]

If there is a hazard then the airport operator may have a responsibility (and liability) if a pilot has an accident.

Only if the flight was being conducted in accordance with normal practices, and something happened where the airport was at fault.

For example you do not notam there is a hill nearby. Nor do you need to tell pilots about it in advance.

A PPR phone call could be useful for asking questions like 'are there potholes'? Of course the answer will always be NO. But there often are, and prop strikes are common. Airfields are very well practiced at washing their hands of liability for prop strikes. They are not liable if the pilot was normally competent yet pranged it, but they are liable for a pothole induced strike. PPR is useless for that.

There is no possible reason for PPR by phone. It is just obstinate self importance, and easily defeated with a satphone, or by making a GSM call while flying low :)

I find PPR especially irritating because, in the European context, a lot of airports want it but many of them (international ones) do not communicate in English.

[Fuji Abound]

Why on earth not do so?


I guess, as with so many things, there is an ever increasing tendency to over regulate. Everyone must wear yellow jackets. Now they are wearing yellow jackets they had better wear yellow hats. You get the drift.

Sometimes it is right and proper that customers should say "enough"!

Yes, it is their air field, but, yes we are their customers. If we cease to be customers, so does the airfield cease to exit. If an airfield insisted on PPR by telephone for no good reason and we all agreed not to go there how long would the field survive?

If we all allow these things to get out of hand for no good reason yet another freedom will be lost. For me a freedom is to bimble sometimes, no plan in mind, to take the opportunity perhaps to drop into X, enjoy a cuppa, chat to another pilot and be on my way. Why - because at the time it seemed like a good idea, but it wasnt necessarily a good idea an hour or so before when I hadnt even set off.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I guess, as with so many things, there is an ever increasing tendency to over regulate. Everyone must wear yellow jackets. Now they are wearing yellow jackets they had better wear yellow hats. You get the drift.

Sometimes it is right and proper that customers should say "enough"!

Yes, it is their air field, but, yes we are their customers. If we cease to be customers, so does the airfield cease to exit. If an airfield insisted on PPR by telephone for no good reason and we all agreed not to go there how long would the field survive?

If we all allow these things to get out of hand for no good reason yet another freedom will be lost. For me a freedom is to bimble sometimes, no plan in mind, to take the opportunity perhaps to drop into X, enjoy a cuppa, chat to another pilot and be on my way. Why - because at the time it seemed like a good idea, but it wasnt necessarily a good idea an hour or so before when I hadnt even set off.

Then don't go to those minority of airfields who want pre take-off PPR. They're probably quite small so there's nobody to talk to anyhow, and quite happy not to have visitors without sufficient airmanship and courtesy to phone and check it's okay to fly in.

You could go to Popham, where I know somebody who was ordered to remove his yellow jacket, because it made it look like he was trying to look official rather than just a visitor. And EGHP is only PPR to non-radio traffic. (Personally I do dislike mandatory hi viz inthe daytime, the need for which, I really do believe is completely unproven).

Simple!

G

[WestWind1950]

again.... PPR is usually only at special airfields, not public ones. It is usually for the times outside of the published opening hours. If no opening hours are published, then it's PPR. During published opening hours, just fly there.

If a shopping mall is closed, their parking lot is often also closed.. it IS private property after all. If YOU own a lot, would you want people to just drive on it when they want or even park on it when THEY want? I doubt it. And that's the same with PPR fields! I have no problem with it.

PPR... you either call in advance by phone, or you fly and call in by radio. If they don't allow you to land (no matter what the reason, and enough reasons have already been listed here), then you fly back home or to your alternate.

Calling in advance allows someone to be there when you arrive, unlock the fuel pumps to serve you, give you advice on the conditions, etc. If you don't PPR then expect no one to be there to provide ANY services, including rescue.

Flying in Europe is different then in the States and cannot always be compared, and not just because of the regs. And yes, I have flown in the States (Southern Cal, even once to Catalina... if I remember right, the landing fees there were per person on board).

[KKoran]

Quote:
If I decide to pop across to Atlanta Hartsfield in my Navajo, can I just call up ATC, get a clearance & land ?
You would almost never fly your Navajo into a place like Hartsfield, because there would be several other nearby airports that are focused on GA aircraft like a Navajo. If I'm not mistaken about Atlanta, you might fly your Navajo here:

PDK - DeKalb Peachtree Airport (http://www.pdkairport.org/index.asp)

Answering your question about Hartsfield directly, you probably could, but you might have to file IFR in flight and fly an approach. There are people here who could tell you specifics, but I'm not one of them!

Quote:
Can I park in an odd corner there so I don't pay ramp fees ?
There are no ramp fees unless you stay over night, and if you do it might be $5/night. For public parking overnight it is often times an honor system thing: you put the money in a little envelope and stuff it in a slot. Generally, nobody pays much attention to where you park unless you get in the way of the fuel pump or in their tie down spot http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/wink2.gif

Quote:
When I'm ready to leave can I just call the Tower, get a clearance & go ?
Yes. Assuming you're VFR you generally get in, start up, taxi out to the hold line and tell ground your type, number, and what runway you want. The when you're ready to go at the runway, you tell them and they give you a takeoff clearance. Sometimes that is the end of your communication with them.

At a pilot controlled airport you get in, taxi out and go, making radio calls as appropriate and listening for other traffic.

I hope that's clear enough to make sense.Generally correct except for the ramp fees--they can be found at quite a few airports, particularly ones that serve the turbine set. The fees are often waived with a minimum fuel purchase.

Yes, one can land at Atlanta Hartsfield or Los Angeles International without a PPR. When it's time to depart, just call clearance deliver (since they are surrounded by Class B airspace) and ground control on the radio.

[AdamFrisch]

In England, my limited experience has it that whenever I call up to obtain a PPR, nobody bloody answers. And when you've finally done 15 min of superintendent work and managed to raise someone else on the field that could convey your request, they inevitably always just say "oh, we don't bother with that much, just pop in".:ugh::eek:

[IO540]

Easy solution for a pro-PPR airport :
Add 10% to all landing fees, with the proviso that by getting the PPR, a 10% discount on the landing will be given.
If you don't like it, don't go there......

Well, sure, I could do that in my business, too. All prices go up by 10% unless the customer phones up first to ask if we will sell to him. Jesus.

If you want to keep your private strip exclusive (and you well might) then keep it that way. And keep it out of all the farm strip directories so that, god forbid, nobody gets the idea to fly there. But if you have an established airfield, don't go round pretending it is open to inbound aircraft and needs a PPR.

:ugh:

[patowalker]

You could go to Popham, where I know somebody who was ordered to remove his yellow jacket, because it made it look like he was trying to look official rather than just a visitor.

... and " I don't want your inside leg measurements, just give me your position."

:ok::ok::ok:

[Fuji Abound]

Then don't go to those minority of airfields who want pre take-off PPR.


Pre take-off PPR - well that is a new one for me - do you mean requesting engine start? I thought we were discussing fields that require some form of PPR before arrival - do we have to seek permission to go as well?

You would be surprised who technically ask for PPR - Duxford is of course well known and over the years has been strictly enforced - well the field at Duxford I believe is owned by the County Council - in other words you and I, the taxpayer.

As I said earlier, if the field is privately owned well of course the owners can do what they like but it is pretty stupid to impose unnecessary requirements on customers. As IO says in any other walk of life it is a sure way to end up with no customers! However I think we are all becoming a pretty compliant race so I suppose if the owners insisted we only turn up if we are wearing pink underpants we would!

Now to be clear if I am going somewhere in particular I always look them up in the flight guide and if they request PPR I always (or nearly always) 'phone first. Obviously I dont want to arrive and find they are clsoed for example. My argument is simply against those places that will not accept airborne PPR for no obvious or sound reason.

[xrayalpha]

Looking through insurance papers from CSP - a major insurance broker:

*******

24. Unlicesed Landing Ground Suitability Clause.

It is understood and agreed that the landing and take-off of the insured aircraft by day on landing grounds other than licnesed airfields are covered under this certificate.

Privided always that:

(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;

(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;

(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.

In the event of a cliam being made under this policy in respect of an accident occurring during the use of such landing ground the onus of proving that (a) (b) (c) above has been complied with shall rest entirely on the Insured.

***************

Worth noting now some licensed airfield - such as Fife/Glenrothes - have chosen to become unlicensed.

And it is illegal in the UK to fly without valid insurance.

[FREDAcheck]

The conditions xrayalpha quotes means that if a pilot lands without prior permission, the airport operator will be uninsured, and potentially liable. Remember that when anyone sues, the lawyers tend to go for everyone, especially the richest party, which in this case might be the airport operator.

So if I or Fuji or IO fly in without prior permission and have an accident for whatever reason, the airport operator ends up losing.

I can see why some operators require PPR and get upset at pilots that put them in jeopardy because they don't believe in PPR.

[IO540]

the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;

That sounds like a private field, and one cannot just fly into a private field (it's private). They can require PPR, or pink underpants.

[xrayalpha]

FREDAcheck,

The poor airfield operator is always in the front line.

However, this means that the pilot would be uninsured without PPR etc etc.

So, it is illegal to fly without insurance.

So the airfield operator can then respond: "your flight was nothing to do with me". So some hope for airfield operators.

But if the airfield CCTV catches you bouncing off the runway after a downwind landing and hurtling towards a parked aircraft and hitting it - expect a bill from the insurers of anything damaged! (or, at the very least, a bill from your own lawyers for defending you against such a claim!)

And don't expect hull cover. It is also against the law for insurers to pay out for illegal actions.

****

Look closely, this is not just about Farmer Joe's grass strips. It is about ANY "landing ground" that is not licensed. And that number is growing now that ab inition flight training for light aircraft is now allowed from unlicensed airfields.

It may even cover Government Airfileds since they are not "licensed"!!

[IO540]

It is also against the law for insurers to pay out for illegal actions.

I think you meant to say criminal actions. That's very different.

If it appears that every unlicensed airfield in the UK has an insurance policy which makes PPR mandatory, that is a perversion which needs to be checked out; it is probably unintentional.

I would fully expect it on a private strip, as indeed I would expect it if I was to insure my drive for a liability to others parking there. It's pretty obvious that my insurance can cover only those who park there with my permission.

[Katamarino]

The conditions xrayalpha quotes means that if a pilot lands without prior permission, the airport operator will be uninsured, and potentially liable.

Once again, no...the quoted conditions appear to be from an airCRAFT insurance document, not an airPORT one. Hence, the aircraft would be uninsured, but it has no relevance to the airport.

I hope you read NOTAMs and the like better than you read some of these posts; could be a safety issue otherwise...

[Fuji Abound]

Privided always that:

(a) the Insured and/or the pilot conducting the flight has obtained the permission of the owner or the tenants of the land;

(b) the Insured and/or the pilot condusting the flight has ascertained the suitability of the landing ground and has enquired from the landlord/tenant or from their authorised representative the condition of the landing ground at the expected time of arrival;

(c) the pilot conducting the flight has surveyed the landing ground by flypast or overflight immediately prior to landing.




c is just daft. Can you imagine turning up at many fields requiring PPR and insisting on a flypast or overflight? What exactly do you hope to achieve by an overflight? You will do well to establish if the runway is suitable. It is one thing to carefully assess a farm strip, quite another to be making a similiar assessment of some well know PPR "airports".

[FREDAcheck]

Once again, no...the quoted conditions appear to be from an airCRAFT insurance document, not an airPORT one. Hence, the aircraft would be uninsured, but it has no relevance to the airport.
I stand corrected.
I hope you read NOTAMs and the like better than you read some of these posts; could be a safety issue otherwise...
:O:O

One point I made remains valid. In the event of litigation, lawyers look for anyone to sue, and will certainly go for the airfield operator if they can find any case for liability. Even successfully defending a legal action can be expensive.

[IO540]

Litigation is rife

Well, actually, I think this is what everybody thinks and so everybody is doing CYA stuff.

But, here in the UK, there is little or no precedent for the vast majority of what people are afraid of.

The basic issue is that if you ask a lawyer "is there a liability" he will always say Yes...

There is a fair bit of "try it on" litigation where a lawyer tries to get a settlement without the claim being tested in a court. This works because businessmen have a tendency to get problems off their back by writing a cheque (that is also what keeps the crooks in the Inland Revenue in business), and so it goes on...

[Legalapproach]

Quote:
What about airfields that are not attended all the time?
Who cares?

Movement of aircraft on aerodromes
40. An aircraft shall not taxi on the apron or the manoeuvring area of an aerodrome without the
permission of either—
(a) the person in charge of the aerodrome; or
(b) the air traffic control unit or aerodrome flight information service unit notified as being on watch at the aerodrome.

Rules of the Air Regulations 2007. Maximum fine £2,500.

[ShyTorque]

PPR... you either call in advance by phone, or you fly and call in by radio. If they don't allow you to land (no matter what the reason, and enough reasons have already been listed here), then you fly back home or to your alternate.

My passengers might not like that very much; understandable as they are paying my salary.

[mikehallam]

All the more reason, if it's a Commercial flight & not a 'jolly', to act like a pro. & make sure you are allowed to land beforehand.
Sort of essential pre-flight planning ?

mikehallam.

[ShyTorque]

Sort of essential pre-flight planning?

My point exactly. But I consider every flight the same because a denied permission resulting in a diversion = wasted aircraft hours and fuel.

Btw, I hope I can do slightly better than "acting" like a pro. :ouch:

[DX Wombat]

What worries me is the "I'm a pilot and I can do as I like" attitude seen when some people find they are required to do something which they feel infringes their freedom to do as they want totally ignoring the fact that others have rights and resposibilities too. If an airfield is listed as PPR then PPR it is, no ifs or buts. Whoever owns/manages the airfield REQUIRES PPR for whatever reason they may have - it isn't an option. For heaven's sake, a quick phone call isn't going to delay your flight by hours and hours but it may avoid problems. Good airmanship requires courtesy and respect for others so please stop the tantrums reminiscent of a stroppy two year old and do as asked.

[IO540]

Some people here are confusing the UK with abroad.

Sure, PPR is a phone call in the UK, so no big deal (except the "PPR only by phone" bit which is just obvious bollox, for any airfield which actually has a radio).

It's different abroad, where (taking the case of an "international" airport) only ATC is obliged to speak English. The ground staff doesn't need to, and often doesn't, and this is why PPR is so irritating. It can take days of emailing, faxing, etc, to sort out PPR in many places. For preplanned trips like holidays, I usually start a few weeks ahead.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Mandatory "PPR by phone" is less bollox to people who realise all equipment can go wrong - including radio. I feel quite sure that is one of the reasons it is required by most aerodromes over here.

And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't. In Russia, for a beginning. Email or fax stands a better chance of being understood, though that says nothing about the likelihood of getting a reply.

[Mickey Kaye]

I hate PPR. To me if your are operating a commercial airport then the more visitors you get the more money you make (landing at farmer joes strip I view differently)

However I do agree thats its often good airmanship to phone ahead. So if I call up on the radio only to be told I can't land there because its too busy, waterlogged runway etc then fair enough.

However when I call up and none of the above apply and the only reason I can't land there is because I haven't phone for PPR. Well thats utter bollox and I make an effort not to take my business to such places.

[172driver]

For preplanned trips like holidays, I usually start a few weeks ahead

Funny, that. I file a flight plan and go. Only ever once had a problem, and that was due to an ancient NOTAM that I overlooked. Even that one got sorted out on the radio, however (and yes, in southern Europe).

[Ryan5252]

PPR is a disease which has crept into the industry. I personally believe that it was some twits great idea to keep out the riff-raff. It now only serves the purpose of making the other person whose job it is to answer the phone feel important.

It is absolute bollox in my view. If as has been suggested, some airports/fields are required to ask for PPR to satisfy some obscure insurance clause (which I don't for a second believe) then fair enough. Stick some disclaimer page on your website, fill it full with all the information you neglected to include in both the AIP and VFR flight guide and I can type in my call sign and estimated arrival time and tick the box that says 'I have read this information' and hit send. Do I need to do these every time I fly to the same spot, perhaps, on filling your disclaimer I’m good to go for a month a more??

I would be very interested to see numbers to justify PPR from a safety perspective. How many accidents have been prevented as a result of PPR being sought in advance or how many may not have happened had the guy at the controls phoned up beforehand? How many times has anyone phoned for PPR and taught "JESUS!! I’m so glad I called ahead, they is absolutely no way I would have known about the Nimbys who just moved in to number 29, or there is NO way I would have known they closed for lunch!" NOTAMs anyone? On the other hand, how many times have you phoned for PPR to get an answer machine, an automated reply asking to press 1,2,3 etc if you want to speak to any of the flight schools or maintenance folk established at the field?

It's political correctness gone mad I say! :}
However I do agree thats its often good airmanship to phone ahead. Absolutely!


And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't.ICAO would disagree with you on that one, I think.

[WestWind1950]

Ryan, you didn't seem to read the previous entries very well. PPR does NOT necessarily have to do with "normal" conditions at the field, but "special" conditions, from events that may be happening (field closed for non-participants), lack of proper parking (powered gliders often need PPR because of their wingspan), conditions of the field (it's often sogged in and thus closed). Or they have no "officail" opening hours when there is guaranteed someone there to help with the fuel pumps or other service. Call in advance... what's so difficult about that?

Of course, many fields are PPR since long before the advance of internet, etc. and there are MANY fields that don't have homepages still! Maybe some of those fields should at least have an answering maschine running on the PPR phone number.......

It is the owners priority to use PPR if he wants... it's HIS property after all. You wouldn't want someone landing on your property without your knowledge, would you? :rolleyes:

[englishal]

PPR is fine if someone running an airfield wants PPR by phone, no problemo. I may not bother to go there, but I doubt they care. Some airfields are run by people who seem intent on putting people off visiting, and hence paying their fees. Odd for a business if you ask me. Perfectly acceptable for a private piece of land if someone is "doing you a favour".

Believe it or not, it is perfectly safe to fly to an airfield WITHOUT phoning first...Yep, youbetcha it is! Ask any one who flies in America. I have done 600nm cross countries in the USA WITHOUT phoning first. OMG I hear you all gasp, how can it be so!? Well I check the weather, check the flight guide, and ofski I go. Easy as that.

I confess I did once, in my early flying career, phone ahead in the USA. And that is where I got the "This is an airport isn't it? of course you can land here" line from. The chap was quite bemused that I had phoned him.

I like NOT having PPR because then I am free (like a bird) to do WTF I want. If I want to stop for a cuppa or pee elsewhere, then I can, and no one worries about me. If I want to just drop in because I am in the area doing some stalls and steep turns, then I can just drop in for a bit of tea and cake afterwards...

Anyway I am only posting because I am bored and have nothing better to do, I don't mean to prolong the life of this thread beyond its natural life....

[Jan Olieslagers]

And frankly, I do not think there is any universal obligation for ATC to speak English, and I am quite sure many controllers don't. ICAO would disagree with you on that one, I think.Any pointers, there? I'll be glad to learn better. Still, without ever having been there, I dare to bet nobody speaks English at Novosibirsk tower - to name just the first place I could think of. No real need to go that far, presumably.

[reportyourlevel]

From ICAO (http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#23):

In which languages does a licence holder need to demonstrate proficiency?

Amendment 164 to Annex 1 has introduced strengthened language proficiency requirements for flight crew members and air traffic controllers. The language proficiency requirements apply to any language used for radiotelephony communications in international operations. Therefore, pilots on international flights shall demonstrate language proficiency in either English or the language used by the station on the ground. Controllers working on stations serving designated airports and routes used by international air services shall demonstrate language proficiency in English as well as in any other language(s) used by the station on the ground.

[Ryan5252]

Ryan, you didn't seem to read the previous entries very well.

I do apologise WW - I shall try better next time. Any particular section you would like to me to revist in particular?

I just want to clarify I am talking about this whole idea of PPR for Airports rather than private strips. For this purpose lets assume 'Airport' is a public place established to provide a safe enviroment for the arrival and departure of aircraft. For this service in the UK we pay a fee by way of landing fee's and/or parking fee's. The council run the airport (In my case anyway). I pay my taxes.

Can you please just answer me this. Why on earth must I contact the airport to obtain permission to land there? What are the reasons to justify this folly? (from a public airport point of view please)

I know full well it is not hard to make a telephone call - I have made them before with varying degrees of sucess over the years. It is the principle of having yet another procedure shoved down my throat as if it were law. It is not.

I'll give you an example of a typical UK-GA experience now. Only 2 weeks ago I made the trip across to Prestwick. Before departure I duly contacted one of the handling agents (mandatory handling.... must resist tempation..... rant averted:ok:) who advised me in advance where I can expect to park. They also advised they would 'take care' of the PPR. Wait a second, this implies they will talk to someone after I have finished this phone call to get 'Permission' for me?? I phone someone who phones someone else who says its ok for me to come?! What happens if some urgent element of the PPR message could not be relayed to me as I am now airborne? Do we rely soley on radio communication in such an instance?? On arrival at EGPK I was met at the taxiway by a 'Follow me' van who escorted me off the taxiway to the ramp, placed chocks on my plane and made me a coffee. They also took care of the 'booking out'. (Lest both my FP and GAR should go un-noticed :ugh:) This was all for the very resonable sum of £75!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WestWind1950]

@Englishal
Believe it or not, it is perfectly safe to fly to an airfield WITHOUT phoning first...Yep, youbetcha it is! Ask any one who flies in America. I have done 600nm cross countries in the USA WITHOUT phoning first. OMG I hear you all gasp, how can it be so!? Well I check the weather, check the flight guide, and ofski I go. Easy as that.


First, you cannot compare Europe with the USA. I also enjoyed flying in the USA, but it was no fun to land and discover the coffee shop was closed.

Second, of all the airfields in Europe that I have visited with PPR without calling ahead but via radio when arriving, all allowed me to land ... no problem! But, if there was a reason NOT to allow me to land (see other entries), then I would have buggered off. It is really no big deal! :ugh:

@Ryan
most PUBLIC airfields that I know of have published opening hours and thus NO PPR requirement... except perhaps during after or before those hours.

[Ryan5252]

most PUBLIC airfields that I know of have published opening hours and thus NO PPR requirement... except perhaps during after or before those hours.

Not disputing this but take a look at the VFR Flight Guide as an example, you will see the majority state PPR Required.

I also enjoyed flying in the USA, but it was no fun to land and discover the coffee shop was closed.

I made a flight recently and duly sought PPR - during the phone call the man asked "how long will you be with us?" I replied "not too long, maybe on the ground an hour for a coffee and we'll be off again". "No problem, see you then".

On arrival the cafe was closed as it is during week days in winter! :ugh::ugh:

First, you cannot compare Europe with the USA.

Perhaps if we did things would not be so bad here.

[Katamarino]

Perhaps if we did things would not be so bad here.

This is so true; it's so depressing to see people sticking their head in the sand and saying "well, it could be worse" rather than looking around and thinking "hey, it could be better"...

[Genghis the Engineer]

On arrival at EGPK I was met at the taxiway by a 'Follow me' van who escorted me off the taxiway to the ramp, placed chocks on my plane and made me a coffee. They also took care of the 'booking out'. (Lest both my FP and GAR should go un-noticed ) This was all for the very resonable sum of £75!!!!!!!!!!!!

Whilst if you'd had the better sense to go through the Prestwick Flight Centre flying club, they'd have charged you £15 landing fee and no handling. All in Pooleys.

Always talk to the flying clubs first at big airports in the UK, not handling agents who are just there to make money from big aeroplanes.

G

[DX Wombat]

Genghis, you beat me to it! The Flying Clubs at Prestwick are very helpful.

[Ryan5252]

Whilst if you'd had the better sense to go through the Prestwick Flight Centre flying club
I did, but unfortunately as no one was in a position to the answer the phone I had to seek an alternative!

[IO540]

Always talk to the flying clubs first at big airports in the UK, not handling agents who are just there to make money from big aeroplanes.

That is a standard handling avoidance tactic but

- a lot of airports are wise to it and try to obstruct it, as they try to question people who are flying in "for maintenance" (the man at Bournemouth likes to do that, asking me what kind of maintenance I was having done)

- it doesn't work so well abroad, where nobody at the FC is likely to speak English

[dublinpilot]

n England, my limited experience has it that whenever I call up to obtain a PPR, nobody bloody answers. And when you've finally done 15 min of superintendent work and managed to raise someone else on the field that could convey your request, they inevitably always just say "oh, we don't bother with that much, just pop in".

I've absolutely no problem with getting PPR, as I always take off with a destination in mind. However my experience is often the same as Adams.

For a trip to Scotland last summer, taking in 6 airports, it took about five days to get answers to all the required phones.

[NO 7]

Drifting slightly - whilst clubs are helpful, you have discovered the flaw - they are NOT there 24/7. I respectfully suggest that if the airfield has more than one FBO / handler you give them a call and get a price BEFORE committing! Personally I always advise a private VFR light single to contact the Flight Centre unless they intend to arrive / depart before or after their operating hours or are arriving from outside the UK . Prices between FBOs vary considerably so please check and make sure that you choose the 'correct' FBO. A phone call is much cheaper than the wrong choice!

[IO540]

For a trip to Scotland last summer, taking in 6 airports, it took about five days to get answers to all the required phones.

That is exactly the problem for any nontrivial trip!

And I should add that I rarely ask about pricing. That would add a whole new level of complexity. The time I do ask about pricing is if going to "strongly suspected ripoff airports" :) But on foreign trips I am happy to pay anything under £100; it's not really significant on the scale of fuel, hotels, eating, etc. Parking a car would cost as much at many places.

What we are basically seeing here is that a lot of people don't do nontrivial trips. So, they cannot see what the problem is. It's like the GPS debate - if you never fly far from home, navigation is easy.

[DX Wombat]

I did, but unfortunately as no one was in a position to the answer the phone I had to seek an alternative!So if you got no answer from the Flying Club why didn't you try the Flight Centre where there is at least one very helpful receptionist? I found her very helpful when I needed some help with a different matter. :ok: Don't complain about charges if you didn't do your homework properly. A quick giggle search would have shown you that there are two Flying Clubs/Centres at Prestwick. Ocean Skies and Greer are commercial enterprises who need to make money from handling.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That is exactly the problem for any nontrivial trip!

And I should add that I rarely ask about pricing. That would add a whole new level of complexity. The time I do ask about pricing is if going to "strongly suspected ripoff airports" :) But on foreign trips I am happy to pay anything under £100; it's not really significant on the scale of fuel, hotels, eating, etc. Parking a car would cost as much at many places.

What we are basically seeing here is that a lot of people don't do nontrivial trips. So, they cannot see what the problem is. It's like the GPS debate - if you never fly far from home, navigation is easy.

Strangely, I've done numerous trips around both England and Scotland, along with a few to and from the island of Ireland and yet to have the sort of problems being described.

Yes, I've had problems - having to email people a couple of day before for PPR, calling for PPR on RT and discovering they were closed to making different plans, haggling with flying clubs to avoid paying extortionate handling agent charges. And in Scotland - very careful fuel planning. Ultimately however, I've always managed to achieve more or less what I wanted in the first place.

I think basically if you plan a few days ahead of a non-trivial trip, allow yourself to be a bit flexible, and accept the need for a fair bit of communication, it's really not a problem.

Strangely enough, I've found much the same playing Sky-Gypsy around the USA in a cheap rental. The environment isn't identical, but the basic principles are.

G

[Ryan5252]

So if you got no answer from the Flying Club why didn't you try the Flight Centre where there is at least one very helpful receptionist?
Because I was under a time constraint but one learns by doing!
Don't complain about charges if you didn't do your homework properly. I believe the charge was excessive but I would remind you the charge was as an example to the point I was making in relation to the hassle one must endure in UK General Aviation. Had I wanted to complain about the charge I would have created a topic about handling charges for your critique.
I have yet to be convinced that PPR serves any meaningful purpose, it is still my contention PPR only serves to make matters 'slightly' less straight forward.

[FREDAcheck]

Some people here commenting on the increasing control-freakery of some airfields (follow-me vans, hi-viz, silly bureaucracy and so on). I quite agree. There's a lot of nonsense and quite unnecessary officiousness at some airfields. And PPR usually seems pointless. However, if you are not a regular (and recent) visitor to an airfield you won’t know whether PPR is pointless and (I would say) have no right to ignore it when it's stated as a requirement. If you don't like it, stay away (as several have said they'll do).

How many times has anyone phoned for PPR and taught "JESUS!! I’m so glad I called ahead, they is absolutely no way I would have known about the Nimbys who just moved in to number 29, or there is NO way I would have known they closed for lunch!" NOTAMs anyone?
I’ve been to more than one airfield where they’ve told me the reason they insist on PPR is because of the grief they get from noise-sensitive NIMBYs and lazy plonkers that don’t read Pooleys/AFE and don’t check the airfield website and quite unnecessarily annoy the neighbours. There's absolutely no excuse for that sort of behaviour, and if PPR helps remind pilots where they shouldn't fly, I don't blame harassed airfields for requiring it.

I'm quite sure no one posting here is a lazy plonker. :) :)

[LH2]

I'm quite sure no one posting here is a lazy plonker.

http://th266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/th_1sm111iknow1.gif

[IO540]

I cannot conceive of requiring 5 days notice to make a trip 500 miles from home taking in 6 airports. A requirement for one day would seem a lot, and 5 days completely removes the utility of light aviation.

I agree. But that's Europe for you.

Each year I do several long trips, say 30hrs total to Greece and back anbd some shorter ones, and I tend to kick off the PPR comms (emails and faxes) for those weeks ahead. Some airports need to be sent half a dozen emails and faxes before one gets a reply. Many never reply. I don't fly to those, but in extreme cases I ask a local pilot to phone them. For example I will be flying to Kithira (a Greek island) which never responded to any comms, including AFTN messages, but I got someone local to phone them in Greek.

Other airports are really easy, and obviously that's where I prefer to go.

It's a European disease and it is spreading.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'm guessing Silvaire that you don't have any national borders within 500 miles? Or maybe one with an English speaking country?

Most English pilots probably have a dozen or more national borders, covering half a dozen languages, within that distance. Most of the countries in that are in the same European Union, but a few (Switzerland, Isle of Mann) are not. There are several regions with significant terrorist issues (hence for example that I need to notify the police 12 hours before flying to or from Ireland), and numerous concerns about tax avoidance, or smuggling. We also have a much higher population density than you have in the USA, so most airports have local noise concerns and may need to brief you, or temporarily vary flight operations to ensure that they can stay in business. We also don't subsidise our local airports by and large, choosing in Europe to spend our taxes on, for example, healthcare - it's a national difference.

Yes, and there are things we don't do very well of course - I'd love to have the American 1-800-WXBRIEF service in the UK, along with your lack of landing fees, and pilot controlled lighting. Those are all things that in theory we could do in Europe, and is an enhancing feature of flight in the USA.

But, to look at the restrictions on flying here and say it's mad, is not really to understand the situation.


Mind you, I also don't understand many of the complaints from my fellow Brits. I have virtually never failed to get somebody on the phone and obtain PPR even if I've occasionally taken a few goes or gone somewhere else nearby, I know that I can save a lot on handling fees by going through the local flying club, and I spent £30 per year on the Pooleys Flight Guide, which contains most of the guidance I need to get things right.


G
(UK, European and FAA licence holder)

[WorkingHard]

"We also don't subsidise our local airports by and large" - RyanAir would disagree with that! The fact is GA is seen as a rich man's sport and not an essential business tool for those find it useful in business. That is why there are so many restrictions and obstacles to an efficient network of GA airports. Perhaps someone might enlighten us about why GA is so disliked by some airports and ATC staff in this country. I did say SOME.

[englishal]

Ah yes, Alderney, that well known terrorist state...the one that requires me to notify Special Branch 12 hours before....Yes I have seen many Al Queda terrorists living there, and gawd you should see the drug plantations. Everyone is high on Cocain all the time!

Not to mention the Isle Of Man...Wow, those people are really something. Always trying to cross the Irish Sea and blow up terrotist targets.

The Irish are European, but the Northern Irish, who are British are all terrorists as we all well know.

Yes the restrictions we face in Europe, being all members of the EU and all that, are mad...crazy in fact considering there are meant to be free borders.

[Ryan5252]

Perhaps someone might enlighten us about why GA is so disliked by some airports and ATC staff in this country. I did say SOME.
Yes, and if you do find out, please would you let me know as this is something i've often wondered myself. I thought money was money but turns out it's not!

Oh, Englishal - :}

[BackPacker]

crazy in fact considering there are meant to be free borders.

Ah, well, actually the EU is more about free and fair trade, ie. shipping goods over borders without hassles of VAT drawback/duty, import/export restrictions and such.

If you want free passage over the borders for your own person, what you should be looking for is the Schengen treaty. Which the UK, sadly, did not sign. So anytime you leave or enter the UK you've got the hassle of going through an immigration process. Which is, I grant you, made easier on the UK side through the GAR form, but still a bit of a hassle. On the Schengen side, you've got to go through one of the designated "customs" (although in this case "immigration" would be more relevant) airports.

Once you're within the EU, and within the set of countries that signed up to the Schengen agreement (and that's indeed a different list), for private flight essentially all borders disappear. With the exception of the fact that you need to file a flight plan for any flight that crosses an international FIR boundary. Big deal.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I run a fly in and airshow for charity at a private strip once a year. We insist on PPR so we can get a good idea of movements (parking gets tight with 80 aircraft on the ground) and so we can brief pilots on the airfield. (the field is in no flight guide and is built for the event) With PPR we e-mail out a very thorough briefing pack, however every year some bright spark just pitches up, one during a BBMF display a couple of years ago (the display times and RAT are notamed). Most of the rest of the non-ppr group have glanced at the copy their mate has got with his PPR and then f*** up completely due to the fact they don't know (or care about) the procedures, our neighbours or the notamed display timings. The really good ones are the ones who come in non-radio because they don't have the frequency, carve up the circuit and complain about the strip.

PPR may be a pain, but a thorough briefing which will come on some occasions could save you a red face or worse. I've got the Reds coming to play this year and believe me if their display is cut short by an unannounced arrival then the pilot concerned can expect the bill for the Reds display.

His £ 100 cup of coffee and burger may turn into a £ 15 000 coffee and burger and I will emblazon his name, registration and home club/airfield across this forum, every other forum I can and the aviation press.

SND

[gasax]

Sir Niall Dementia I run a fly in and airshow for charity at a private strip once a year. We insist on PPR so we can get a good idea of movements (parking gets tight with 80 aircraft on the ground) and so we can brief pilots on the airfield. (the field is in no flight guide and is built for the event) With PPR we e-mail out a very thorough briefing pack, however every year some bright spark just pitches up, one during a BBMF display a couple of years ago (the display times and RAT are notamed). Most of the rest of the non-ppr group have glanced at the copy their mate has got with his PPR and then f*** up completely due to the fact they don't know (or care about) the procedures, our neighbours or the notamed display timings. The really good ones are the ones who come in non-radio because they don't have the frequency, carve up the circuit and complain about the strip

Well have n't you just proved that it does n't work? Having seen your posts on this matter previously if you only want things on your terms then iether do not advertise the event, or provide sufficient information including A/G on the day to make sure these problems do not exist.

This smacks of the nonsense that airfield like Leuchars impose for their display days, dozens of pages of instructions, slot times to the second for an airfield where all the visitors could land simultaneously - if there was not already full LARS, approach, tower and ground control........

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Actually GASAX we do provde AG as I put in my last post. Because the strip is just one day a year and a very public event we do all we can to mitigate against all risks, and the pilots' guide is a single A4 sheet with a colour aerial photograph with circuit direction, avoid areas etc on it. I don't use slot times so that visitors can fit the flight into their day as they see fit, BUT our insurers insist that we must know as much as possible about visiting aircraft and that we brief visiting pilots about the site as thoroughly as possible.

PPR is not there to deny anyone the freedom to fly, it is mainly there for the safety of all concerned.

SND