When would you wrest control?

[Fuji Abound]

Another thread prompted this one, and for a change, I cant recall it having been done before.

So the question is this; you are an instructor, you are the non flying pilot in a multi crew enviroment or you are just another pilot that happens to be sitting in the right seat (for you heli guys and girls) or left seat with a good friend when you decide you really dont like what is happening.

Perhaps there is time (or perhaps not) to draw the pilots attention to the developing situation. If there is, for whatever reason, the handling pilot seems intent on doing nothing.

At what point, and in what circusmtances, in the cycle would you feel you had no alternative but to take control?

How would you react if you were the handling pilot?

Have you been in that situation either as the handling or non handling pilot.

[IO540]

You mean when would you wrest control away? :)

Never happened to me, but I would do it in case of imminent danger, I guess.

Presumably proper instructors receive some training on this?

[Sciolistes]

As an FO I would take control when when doing nothing would result in an incident. Feeling merely uncomfortable is not enough for me to consider taking over, at that point I would just utilise a standard assertiveness model. So far I have only got as far as using emergency language, in my case "you have to go around now" where he persisted with descending below MDA in IMC.

I have had control taken from me, at the time a difficult crosswind landing at night in drizzle and mist with extremely bright edge lights and no centre lights. I was lined up to touch down well to the right, too far, and the Capt just calmly said, "I have control", no drama.

[BackPacker]

Never been in that situation but I have been in a reverse situation.

I was doing a clubcheck, we finished the PFLs and other required elements so we were just fooling around a bit. I was doing a spin (I'm aeros qualified and current, and the aircraft is cleared for spinning) and found I had tremendous difficulty pulling out of the dive. Turned out the (non-aeros) instructor in the RHS had subconsciously gotten hold of the stick and held it tight. Fortunately I was stronger. Lesson for both of us.

[Jan Olieslagers]

As a beginner microlight pilot, I can only reflect on actions of the more experienced pilot-instructor in the right seat. I do have observed that, the more experienced the instructor, the further he'll let the student pilot go in his errings. This increases the students chances of observing them without help, and that is a great plus.

I also have felt like opposing the pilot when I was a guest in his plane. But given my lack of skills/experience, and the fact that it was HIS plane and HIS fine, I bit my tongue, and prayed nothing should go wrong, and looked pointedly ahead at the horizon - knowing that for my best way to avoid getting sick.

What I have also experienced is instructors/plane owners demonstrating their skills and/or the capacities of their planes, bringing me only a scare and no kind of impression, unless negative. But that was far less hard, I only had to wait for it to be over. The one who beautifully avoided this pitfall was the very nice chap who gave me a demo flight in a Europa at Wombleton.

[jollyrog]

That's a hard one. The very act of taking control from someone who doesn't want to give it up could be the cause of an incident.

I'd do it if I thought I was going to get hurt and doing so wasn't itself going to get me hurt. Then at least I'd be alive to suffer the fallout.

Other than in a formal environment, FI/student or multi crew, what right does any of us have to do such a thing?

To answer your second question... if I were on the receiving end of this behaviour, it would depend who it was. If it was an FI I'd flown with in the past in a training relationship, I'd probably accept it as necessary. Anone else, unless I could agree with their reasoning, I'd report them and have them prosecuted for unlawful interference or whatever was possible, I suppose.

[The500man]

I think in the case of a flying instructor, he/ she is the aircraft commander, and no doubt is trained to save the day when appropriate. In the case of a multi-crew environment pressumably the non-flying pilot is adequately trained to gauge the situation correctly and take control when necessary.

In both of these cases the pilots are flying legally and should have had sufficient training to enable them to take appropriate action.

In the case of a private flight it may be that you as a passenger feel the need to take control of a friends aircraft to save the day. However in this case it may well be that you are not able to fly his/ her aircraft because you don't have the required ratings, and you are also not insured.

I suspect if you did take control and there was a positive outcome you would be commended for your actions (if anyobdy ever found out), however if it all went tits-up then you would most certainly take the blame or part of it. What were you doing taking control of an aircraft you weren't adequately licensed/ insured to fly?

People in this day and age like to find someone to blame after all. Obviously it's better to not be dead!

[Pilot DAR]

My threshold for taking control away from the flying pilot has been either "do I feel my life is now in imminent danger"? Or "We are now at the point where with my experience (as appropriate to the aircraft type, and nature of flight, of course) tells me that I could not make a safe landing out of this, so I am not confident the flying pilot could either".

None of the times I have taken control have resulted in drama of any sort. I have found that the less said after the fact, the better.

A few times, I have recognized an impending bad situation early enough to be able to say, "would you like some help?" or "would you like me to fly for a while?". In every case, this has resulted in either the pilot flying happily letting me take over, or otherwise recognizing that a bad situation could be close, and taking appropriate action.

A few other times, I have left things too long out of blind faith (which went un-rewarded), and it has simply been "I've got it!!!". Every time I have done this, the outcome has been favourable, and every time, I have sensed relief on the part of the pilot - not anger. Again, the less said after the fact, the better....

Then there was the one time, right seat in a Piper Cheyenne to a very experienced pilot, with a load of people in the back... I just grabbed the controls, and rolled the plane away from the hawk right in front of us. My surprized pilot agreed that my dramatic action was appropriate under the circumstances (he never saw the hawk).

Just as often during checkouts, I have had the pilot try to give me control. I remind him/her, that they are doing fine, and keep flying - I don't need to fly. I find that these pilots generally fly quite well, once they reach a level of comfort.

On the other side of things, I have learned that to not have the other pilot take control away form me, any maneuver which is unusual will be well briefed in advance, and changes in conditions noted with verbal comment. Where I plan a maneuver right through (spin, for example), I explain in detail what I am going to do, and state that I will fly the plane right through. With a compotent pilot, and your demonstration of compotence to that pilot's satisfaction, that will probably assure harmony.

I once was flying a very nervous type flying instructor back from a delivery of a second aircraft. I briefed a STOL takeoff, and that was what I did. I guess he was not expecting this, or what was involved. Prior to the moment, when he reached for the controls to take control away from me, (with nothing said in advance), he apparently had not noticed that my plane has the controls removed from the passenger side. His two hands passed right through the cockpit space, which otherwise would be occupied by the control wheel, kept right on going, and firmly grabbed under his seat. By then we were safely airborne, and climbing out. He later complianed to his boss that I was an "idiot" and "flying around below stall speed". His boss asked him: "If Jim was flying around below stall speed, how come the plane did not stall?" Nervous instructor had no answer for that.

Different pilots come with different levels of comfort. We all have to get along, but some pilots should probably approach some types of flying with great caution, and a willingness to surrender control.

[The500man]

Pilot DAR with hindsight do you think your STOL briefing was adequate? Or was the nervous type flying instructor jusr a know-it-all-numpty?

I ask because it may be easy to assume a certain level of understanding based on a passengers own flying qualifications or experience.

Your story about the Piper Cheyenne has reminded me of one of my training flights where I was flying a route to prove I could before being allowed to go solo. Pretty much same thing happened, traffic ahead that I didn't see early enough and my instructor briefly took control and banked sharply to avoid it. His actions took me by surprise and I thought afterwards that he wouldn't let me go solo. He did though and I'm still alive!

[Pace]

I like Pilot Dars response. I have to say I have taken control on quite a few occasions but they are always where there is imminent serious danger.
Usually in any crew situation there is one more competant pilot than the other.
Naturally there are times when you can see a situation developing where pointing out the error will suffice but then there are times when you have to act fast.

One situation I had was riding right seat in a Seneca Five with an elderly experienced pilot in the left.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.

I will also add we all make mistakes even the best and the other pilot should always be keeping half an eye on the handling pilot and point out an error before it develops.

Pace

[172driver]

Had the situation only once in anger - but had it briefed beforehand. Flying PIC with a pilot friend who hadn't flown in a long time and was not current on the model. We did a multi-leg trip and this was to be his landing.

Briefed beforehand that if I didn't like what I saw, it was going to be the standard callout 'my airplane' and I would take over.

Approach went reasonably well, but he was a bit too fast and couldn't handle the x-wind well. We were on our way into the grass when I made the call, took over and landed. No hard feelings, we discussed the techniques involved (or rather, the absence) afterwards. And yes, we're still friends and go flying together!

On a different note, once 'helped' the father of a friend, who has a license but isn't very current, by very gently applying a bit more back pressure on the yoke for the landing from the RHS. Turned an 'arrival' into a greaser. Happiness all around!

[Pilot DAR]

Pilot DAR with hindsight do you think your STOL briefing was adequate? Or was the nervous type flying instructor jusr a know-it-all-numpty?

Yes, fair enough... I would concede that those were the days before I had refined my attitude about effective briefings! But, there was a measurable "numpty" factor on his part too...

I have, and continue to, observe that there are a lot of pilots (some with less experience than I) from whom I can still learn something very valuable - as recently as last week, as a matter of fact.

We all come from a slightly varied aviation past, and we all get it less than right, from time to time...

[stiknruda]

In my Pitts, I ofern let people try some maneouvers but the ground brief states that if I donI like it I will tell them and expect to be given control - once (with a Sheffield based Ppruner) he just couldn't hear me and i ended up overpowering him on the stick. You know who you are!!

I regret not doing it on one occasion in someone else's taildragger. He was new to the aeroplane and it was too much aeroplane for him - and ended up on the runway backwards at 60kts with the aeroplane shedding large bits rapidly. Gear leg, propellor, large round engine, etc!

I just knew it was wrong on short final and tried to gently persuade him that we were not lined up, he'd failed to take into account the wind from right to left and the g/s was 50% too high. It was recoverable right to the point when with the port main on the tarmac (and I assume the brake locked on) he hauled the column back into his belly and applied full throttle - we went round like a top - both tyres now squealing over the the engine at full power until the starboard gear snapped off.........

I still have what-ifs over that one!:uhoh:

[Daysleeper]

Typing on an iPhone so sorry for the spelling errors,
Try PACE for a suggested System...
P for probe, " what altitude we flying at?"
A for alert, " the msa in this area is 2,500 ft and we are in cloud at 1,500"
C for challenge, "bob we are below , there is rising ground ahead.. we are in danger, you have to climb. "
E for emergency action... "I have control"

Try to involve them personally , give them an out, they may be at maximum capacity and have no space to think... Highlight their responsibility to others, hey you may be happy down here but I'm a chicken so can we climb now... Etc

[Pace]

Daysleeper

Oh for a nice ILS a radar controller and all the delights of a proper airfield with all the charts you could possibly wish for :) and preferably a nice big chunk of CAS all the way in.

Pace

[S-Works]

I would be very careful about wresting control of an aircraft from the Legal Commander whatever you may think about their flying. Seizing control of an aircraft without the Commanders permission is an act of terrorism and should only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances where life and limb are threatened.

[Pace]

Bose

I agree with what you are saying with a Caveat!!! Obviously the further up the ladder you go the more proficient and experienced the Pilots will be.

sadly in Private flying there is a wide spectrum of ability and experience.

I flew with a PPL who was having problems landing a Seneca another of my taking control situations.
Right seat again non instructor! But i do have 3000 hrs in Senecas so know them pretty well.
They need a lot of aft trim as land a Seneca with forward trim flat or on the nose and you will get the famous seneca porpoise.
More violent porpoising until the nose wheel collapses and the aircraft settles on both props.
This PPL started porpoising which then went to violent porpoising no correction! a PPL who was now a passenger . " I have the aircraft" taking control, adding full power and pulling the nose up.

Okay maybe I am acting as a terrorist but better that than explaining why I allowed an aircraft with my experience to end up on its nose with two engines requiring inspection and new props.

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

Hmmm, I'll keep that terroist aspect in the back of my mind, but way way back there....

[S-Works]

I would keep it there if I were you. It would only take them to be pissed at you taking control and report you. Far fetched it may seem sat on your computer pontificating but as an examiner I have seen how beligerant people can become when a skill test does not go there way. Put that personality into their own aircraft and you then seize control and you have a very dangerous situation developing.

Also as has been mentioned earlier, you take command and it goes pear shaped, rest assured the can will rest with you.

So as I said, I would leave it to the point where life and limb are threatened and you can defend your position to the hilt. I would also be reporting the incident immediately on landing.

[Pace]

Also as has been mentioned earlier, you take command and it goes pear shaped, rest assured the can will rest with you.

Bose

What is new? ;) I am afraid that is a fact of life and determines a true commander. I fly as a Captain in a multi crew invironment. The legs the first officer flies I remind him that any cockups and its not him that takes the can its me!!! So you get used to that possibility of taking the can.

Flying with a PPL sorry but if I see a disaster in the making I am quite happy to take the can on rectifying the situation but I am used to that!

Better taking the can rather than a barrel. :E

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

point where life and limb are threatened and you can defend your position to the hilt.

Yes, that condition would have been met, before I ever considered any drastic, or demeaning action.

I would also be reporting the incident immediately on landing.

To whom? Their mom? (I actually did that once, for totally inappropriate aerobatics, with no license, yet a passenger. His mom grounded him. He did not talk to me for months!).

If I'm within reach of the controls of an aircraft, it will be in the company of a pilot, whom I know at least well enough to feel confident that he/she would not attempt to haul me up on charges, for making an effort to keep a flight safe, where danger was imminent!

[S-Works]

I am sure you know best.

[AfricanEagle]

I am just a plain vanilla ppl with a tiny bit of experience.

If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.

I often fly RH with new/low hour pilots. On a few occasions simply suggesting what to do has been sufficient to straighten out bad developing situations.

On one occasion I called "mine" on landing to save the aeroplane.

[ShyTorque]

This was twenty years ago but I haven't forgotten.

I was then (in a previous military life) a QHI but on this occasion acting as co-pilot in a 7 tonne helicopter which was being hovered at about 8,000 feet (or should have been), towards the end of a long night's work. It was an operational job over what was not a very friendly place at all.

All of us were very tired, we had been working hard all night. The handling pilot (who happened to have previously been one of my students on that type of helicopter) inadvertantly let the aircraft descend with no airspeed, possibly with slightly negative airspeed, until I recognised that we had suddenly entered full vortex ring state (aircraft out of control, randomly pitching, rolling, yawing; a similar situation to a fixed wing full stall but with a higher ROD and no self recovery likely). We were descending at an increasing rate (VSI needle on the bottom stop, which meant well over 2,500 fpm). The situation could only end in disaster. I called "airspeed" (it was still zero). No response came. I called "AIRSPEED" but still no positive recovery action was taken. Knowing that we would soon crash, I put my hand on the back of the cyclic and pushed it fully forward. Thankfully, the nose went down and the IAS responded quickly (it doesn't always in this condition) and the aircraft shuddered and began to fly again.

We had lost two thirds of our altitude in a few seconds. The handling pilot regained control and we decided it was time to go home; the job was cold anyway. It was a quiet ride home.

I'd do the same again for anybody but I'd prefer it if they took the necessary actions themselves. :cool:

[Tinstaafl]

I have no qualms about taking over *if* I see a dangerous or stupid event about to occur. Of course the usual pre-emptive dialogue first if time. If the pilot really wants to push it to the authorities with language about piracy, unlawful interference and the like then a countervailing complaint will be made about acting in a reckless manner, endangering lives, not observing the limitations of the aircraft or breaking the rules, as appropriate.

I'd say I'm well within my rights to protect myself from injury if the other seat acts inappropriately. Consider this: In the few known or suspected multi-crew flights where the PIC has gone off the rails and tried/succeeded in crashing the plane, is it still unlawful interference if the PIC insists it's his/her aircraft while other crewmembers attempt to wrest control?

[S-Works]

Good to know. Next time I fly sleaztjet and I don't like the way the aircraft is being flown I shall be secure in the knowledge I can just pop up front and seize control. I shall also bear it in mind when I am at work that any of my passengers are within there rights to seize control if they don't like my flying.

I shall of course point at the sage wisdom in this thread to prove it's all OK.

[late-joiner]

I'd say I'm well within my rights to protect myself from injury if the other seat acts inappropriately. Consider this: In the few known or suspected multi-crew flights where the PIC has gone off the rails and tried/succeeded in crashing the plane, is it still unlawful interference if the PIC insists it's his/her aircraft while other crewmembers attempt to wrest control? In English law you would have the defence of necessity

[Pace]

I shall of course point at the sage wisdom in this thread to prove it's all OK.

Bose

Sorry I cannot see your comparison to multi crew flying. All I can tell you is that in my time flying I can assure you that there have been many occasions where I have had to do something which could have ended up with me holding the can as you put it.
To date I dont regret one intervention but I would have done if I had done nothing as some were very serious situations indeed.

Pace

[S-Works]

Intervening to prevent a situation deteriorating is a very different thing to wresting or seizing control of an aircraft from the lawful commander.

The comparison to multi crew flying stands. If we are claiming that if we don't like the way the aircraft is being flown and fear for our lives being a pilot gives us the right to seize or wrest control from the legitimate commander.

I would argue that you would need to have really solid grounds in order to do so and be able to prove back on the ground that you were within your rights to do so. Thinking that you know more than the pilot in command just because you are pilot yourself in my humble opinion does not give those grounds.

Try it on my aircraft and and see what happens....... :ok:


intervention |ˌintərˈven sh ən|
noun
the action or process of intervening : they are plants that grow naturally without human intervention.
• interference by a country in another's affairs : the administration was reported to be considering military intervention.
• action taken to improve a situation, esp. a medical disorder : two patients were referred for surgical intervention.

wrest |rest|
verb [ trans. ]
forcibly pull (something) from a person's grasp : Leila tried to wrest her arm from his hold.
• take (something, esp. power or control) from someone or something else after considerable effort or difficulty : they wanted to allow people to wrest control of their lives from impersonal bureaucracies.
• archaic distort the meaning or interpretation of (something) to suit one's own interests or views : you appear convinced of my guilt, and wrest every reply I have made.


seize |sēz|
verb
1 [ trans. ] take hold of suddenly and forcibly : she jumped up and seized his arm | she seized hold of the door handle.

[Pace]

One situation I had was riding right seat in a Seneca Five with an elderly experienced pilot in the left.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.

Bose

I cannot believe your arguement! Either I am not understanding what you are saying or you are on some sort of ego trip.
The above situation really did happen with me in the right hand seat and the commander (LEGAL) in the left! Had I followed your line I would without doubt not have been here now to write this.
Legalities pilot terrorism or whatever would have been pretty irrelevant! but hey ho whatever makes you happy i am sure you are sure you are right.

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

All I can tell you is that in my time flying I can assure you that there have been many occasions where I have had to do something which could have ended up with me holding the can as you put it.
To date I dont regret one intervention but I would have done if I had done nothing as some were very serious situations indeed.



Ditto.

Added to which, I can easily imagine a situation where the bad thing happened, and other other pilot says back to me, why did you not try to help?

I would rather stand accused of doing something within my skill set, than nothing!

[LH2]

Seizing control of an aircraft without the Commanders permission is an act of terrorism

That's a good one :} Bit like this one (http://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/264727-funny-comments-made-students.html#post3137125) here.

But in your case I would probably stick to instructing or whatever it is you do... can't see you having much of a legal career. Just imagine the expression on the judge's face as you're accusing your mate of committing terrorism on your C172 :E

[SNS3Guppy]

Asking when to take control is somewhat like asking about what constitutes pornography: the answer will generally be "I can't tell you, but I know it when I see it."

Taking control of the aircraft depends on the circumstance. It's a very small thing for a flight instructor to step in with a student and assist or take the airplane; it's expected, and happens frequently; especially in the early stages of learning to fly. It's an entirely different matter for a professional first officer or captain to take control from another pilot.

A nearly universally-taught concept involves the challenge and response rule: if a warning is given to the flying pilot "Airspeed!" and there's no response, a second warning is given. If there's no response, the pilot not flying should consider taking control and fixing the situation, assuming incapacitation of the other pilot. Obviously this must be tempered by the situation and considered in context. One doesn't simply take control because the other pilot had a mouth full of samosa or tuna fish sandwhich. One doens't take control because the other pilot is coughing up some Pepsi that went down the wrong pipe. There is a time and a place for everything.

Seizing control of an aircraft without the Commanders permission is an act of terrorism and should only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances where life and limb are threatened.

That's a dangerous, blanket statement, and inherently untrue. Interfering with a crewmember in the performance of his or her duties is an unlawful offense, however, taking control of the airplane to right a poor situation is not at all the same thing. One doesn't need to be in a position where life and limb are threatened before taking control.

A SIC taking control of the airplane is not the same as a passenger sitting in a pilot seat, and attempting to take control. The SIC is there to back up the PIC, and to take control in the event the PIC is unable (for any reason). A SIC taking control of the airplane is a routine, natural act, and not necessarily an "act of terrorisim."

Intervening to prevent a situation deteriorating is a very different thing to wresting or seizing control of an aircraft from the lawful commander.

Semantics. Do we shoot someone or simply ventilate their carcass? Do we jump off a bridge, or simply blend with gravity for a short time? Do we take control, or do we wrest control? Same thing.

Good to know. Next time I fly sleaztjet and I don't like the way the aircraft is being flown I shall be secure in the knowledge I can just pop up front and seize control. I shall also bear it in mind when I am at work that any of my passengers are within there rights to seize control if they don't like my flying.

Come now; let us not speak stupidly.

One cannot make a comparison between a crewmember taking control, and a passenger taking control of an aircraft. One of the duties of a crewmember is to take control at any time that such action becomes necessary (by agreement, or otherwise, depending on the circumstance). Conversely, if you're doing something so egregious that someone on your flight must take control from you, then more power to them, and you can thank them later.

As an instructor and check airman, I've taken control of an airplane when someone else is flying on many occasions. As a professional pilot operating as captain and first officer, I've taken control directly, wresting it from the other pilot in a working operation, only a few times. Two times decisively that I can remember, and several other times when intervention was necessary but I didn't actually take the airplane from the pilot flying. As a passenger, I don't recall ever having to take the aircraft from someone, thus far.

I was assigned to babysit an inexperineced captain in a Learjet 35A on a short two and a half hour cross country flight. He bore close watching, and was far from top-shelf material. While approaching Portland, Oregon we were given a clearance to descend and maintain 12,000', and slow to 210 knots. He thumbed out the speed brakes, putting his thumb through the guard that covered the speed brake switch, and blocking them from being retracted. He retarded power to idle and began his descent. We had a fairly high rate of descent, and as we slowed in the descent, he missed his airspeed. I called "Airspeed!" with no response, followed by "Airspeed! Airspeed! Airspeed!"

Approaching his altitude he showed no signs of reducing his rate of descent, and I called "Altitude!" No response, followed by "Altitude! Altitude! Altitude!" No response.

His speed deteriorated past our minimum clean (flaps up, gear up) speed of 180 knots, and I pried his thumb off the speed brakes and retracted them while applying power and pitching up. He immediately extended the brakes again and retarded power to idle, while staring forward out the windscreen. We were IMC in icing conditions.

Approaching from the east, numerous big hills (Cascade Mountains) are in the area, including Mt. Hood and Mt. Rainer. Going low is bad, especially in instrument conditions. I had to force the thrust levers forward and lock my arm behind them, as he was pulling them hard to idle, and completely unresponsive to my calls "Airspeed! Altitude! Airspeed! Altitude!" He was trying hard to prevent me from stowing the speed brakes, and kept trying to re-extend them. I physically forced him off the controls, regained control, and recovered the airplane to the proper airspeed and altitude.

When I had the airplane stabilized, I engaged the autopilot and took a big breath. He slowly turned and looked at me for a moment before saying "You don't have to shout." On the ground I told him I would fly home, and I did.

That particular occasion was indeed a matter of potential life and limb, but even without the big hills nearby, it was a matter of legality and safety. I wouldn't have allowed the situation to deteriorate regardles of my title or assignment on the flight. Captain, FO, or passenger, I'd have prevented the situation from getting worse.

Numerous fatalities and crashes have occurred because someone allowed someone else to kill them. The 1990 crash of Avianca 52 occurred because the crew wasn't assertive enough with ATC, and the FO wasn't assertive enough with the captain, to communicate their lack of fuel. Many examples can be found when someone on board knew it was going poorly and didn't do anything. Taking control of the situation isn't a bad thing, nor is it a terrorist act. It may very well be the act of a guardian angel.

[Tinstaafl]

Well said, Guppy.

[alwaysdirect]

As an Atco i would say, the second I feel "uncomfortable", I'll take hotseat. It´s my papers. As an ATCO we make a "contract" that says its no problem if I interfere.
The first sign of uncomfortable, you take the charge

[Pace]

A nearly universally-taught concept involves the challenge and response rule: if a warning is given to the flying pilot "Airspeed!" and there's no response, a second warning is given. If there's no response, the pilot not flying should consider taking control and fixing the situation, assuming incapacitation of the other pilot. Obviously this must be tempered by the situation and considered in context. One doesn't simply take control because the other pilot had a mouth full of samosa or tuna fish sandwhich. One doens't take control because the other pilot is coughing up some Pepsi that went down the wrong pipe. There is a time and a place for everything

Incapacitation does not need to be a pilot collapsing at the controls but can mean a pilot failing for whatever reason to correct a quickly deteriorating situation. At what point do you consider the pilot incapacitated? For me the pilot who has frozen and is not responding to warnings is incapacitated.

Airspeed is one good example. You are right seat monitoring an approach in bad weather. The handling pilot is stressed trying to keep his eyes on the runway from a left base join. You notice that he is not monitoring the airspeed which is falling away fast while the handling pilot has almost gone through the centreline and is increasing bank to hold it.

You warn him about the airspeed you warn him about the bank angle.The airspeed continues to deteriorate and the bank angle continues to increase.
You warn again this time with more urgency no response no actions to rectify.

At what point do you consider the handling pilot is incapaciated or incapable and do something other than shouting warnings to rectify the situation.

In the PPL world there is a much larger variation of pilot skills ability and experience than in commercially rated pilots so more chance that an intervention maybe required.

No one is advocating the picture of two alert capable pilots fighting over the controls because one thinks he knows better but more a handling pilot who for whatever reason is incapable of rectifying a serious situation having another pilot who is capable doing it for him and averting a serious accident.

I appreciate you do get type A personalities flying together where there is a continual battle over who is the best and where one is trying to undermine the other. The I can land better than you so I will intervene at the slightest provocation to prove my superiority But that is NOT what we are discusssing here.
Pace

[SNS3Guppy]

At what point do you consider the pilot incapacitated?

Again, nearly universally, the standard is taught that failure to respond to the second challenge will be considered evidence of incapacitation, at which point the challenger is expected to assume control.

"Airspeed!" (no response)

"Airspeed!" (no response)

"I have the controls."

At what point do you consider the handling pilot is incapaciated or incapable and do something other than shouting warnings to rectify the situation.


The two-challenge rule is taught at Flight Safety International, CAE Simuflite, and many corporate, airline, charter, and other training departments.

Again, as previously described, one must temper that action with personal knowledge of the situation. If one's cohort in crime has a mouth full of egg salad, perhaps there's a perfectly valid reason why one hasn't received a verbal response. One may see a hand gesture instead, or a nod. The concept fo the two challenge rule is that if the flying pilot hasn't acknowledged the error and indicated a trend to correcting it after the second challenge, then incapacitation is assumed, barring any other indication from that pilot.

In our operation, for example, airspeed below the bugged airspeed is a mandatory call-out, which is simply "Airspeed." The expected response from the other pilot is "correcting." In fact, the response from the pilot flying to any deviation call by the other pilot is "correcting." Making this response is important; it lets the pilot making the deviation call know he's been heard, and that the other pilot understands the situation, agrees, and is doing something about it.

Making this challenge isn't necessary, of course, when flying single pilot in one's Cessna 172, but then the original poster asked specifically about a crew situation, or environments that resemble a crew situation.

Incapacitation does not need to be a pilot collapsing at the controls but can mean a pilot failing for whatever reason to correct a quickly deteriorating situation.

In the example previously stated, the new captain in the Learjet 35A wasn't unconscious. He wasn't acting to rectify his error. He didn't respond to the deviation calls, and he stared straight ahead without giving any indication that he had heard, that he understood, or that he intended to correct the situation. It was as though he was absent-mindedly lost in thought, far gone and nearly catatonic. His only action was to rigidly maintain the power settings and speed brake settings. When I pushed up the power, he didn't consciously fight me; he simply held pressure against the idle stops, and as soon as I let go of the thrust levers, they snapped back to flight idle because that's where he was holding them. Same for the speed brakes. His mental orders were to keep them out, and his thumb did just that. His mind, for all I know was in the Bahamas. The light was one (dimly), but nobody was home.

I had a similar experience with the same individual a couple of months later. On very short notice, I was asked to fly right seat for him, because he was assigned a trip to Los Angeles. LA is a busy place, and he was very intimidated at the idea of landing at LAX. He had to be hand-held for the entire taxi, one turn at a time, and was scared to death. When leaving LAX, the frequency is busy enough that one reads back only one's transponder code when picking up the IFR clearance. Nothing more. This level of frequency congestion and ground activity intimidated him even more.

When we were cleared to cross runway 25L, for some inexplicable reason he stopped on the runway. He seemed very confused, and had a mental vapor lock. He stopped the airplane, and decided to park it there until he was clear on where to go. I think he was afraid of inadvertantly entering a runway, but didn't seem to understand that he was parked on the runway with traffic holding in position. The controller queried us twice as to our intent,then asked if we could make an intersection departure on Taxiway Golf. I replied affirmative, directed the intrepid aviator to make a left 90 degree turn, and finished the checklist.

As he began his takeoff roll, just before the airspeed came alive, we got a door light. I pointed to the light and stated "Reject, Reject Reject!" He didn't show any sign of having heard me, or intending to comply. I checked the door visually, noted the handle in position, and knew that the door was locked, and that the indication had to be a switch on the handle; I knew the door was safe. I wasn't going to fight him into a high speed rejected takeoff, so we continued. When I called the V1, VR, and Rotate, he rotated normally, but didn't respond to my gear calls. I called positive climb twice, then got the gear myself. I called the flap speeds, he failed to respond, and I retracted them while lowering the nose slightly to accelerate. After we were cleaned up and climbing, I again pointed to the annunciator panel and said "Do you see that we have a door open light?"

He had a fit. He yanked the power to idle, banked hard to the left, and prepared to do a tight turn back to our departure runway. I took control of the airplane immediately. I asked him what he was doing, and he said we obviously had an emergency, and he was returning to land. I asked him if he really intended to make an unannounced return to a busy runway with opposite direction traffic, and he asked what we should do. I told him we'd continue the departure until at altitude and out of the terminal area, then I'd check the door, which we did. Upon our return to home plate, I advised the Chief Pilot that I'd not be flying with that individual ever again, and strongly urged that the company consider finding someone else to accept that paycheck.

Unconscious? No. Incapacitated? Yes. In retrospect, of course, I shouldn't have departed at all with that individual, and given his actions on our first flight, I probably shouldn't have flown with him again, at all. When I returned and served notice that I wouldn't fly with him again, I was advised that everyone else had done the same thing, and the only person willing to fly with him any more was the Chief Pilot.

The necessity to take control, or the wisdom to do so, may take many forms, and one must consider the specific circumstances. One must also be unwilling to hesitate when the moment arrives, and thoughts of air piracy must be the very last thing on one's mind. It's all about safety of flight.

[jollyrog]

I am just a plain vanilla ppl with a tiny bit of experience.

If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.

Air Accidents Investigation: Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee, G-BBBK (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/publications/bulletins/december_2007/piper_pa_28_140_cherokee__g_bbbk.cfm)

[Pace]

JollyRog

Sadly both pilots were mentally incapacitated on that flight its almost unbelievable?
They set off for a VFR flight to a destination below IFR limits with no fuel even for a diversion and no instrumentation ??? then they ask for an SRA with overcast 100 feet???

What more can you say other than unbelievable

Pace

[astir 8]

As a gliding instructor I've had to do a fair amount of stick snatching - usually when Bloggs was about to start rounding out at about minus 5 feet - but both parties expect that kind of thing!

But BGA accident analyses often state "Instructor failed to take over in time". It can be a very fine line between waiting to see if Bloggs will sort out the situation and taking over too soon.

In a P28 in Africa the owner once took it off me in a big hurry when I was happily closing-in on a thermalling vulture (to me circling birds = lift = go to them!!!!) I certainly had no problem with that!

There have however been a number of major accidents, including the 1977 Tenerife disaster where a pilot (normally the copilot) hesitated to override the handling pilot (normally the Captain) when he saw something going wrong.

The question therefore is - a) how many accidents have resulted from the other pilot taking over compared with b) how many accidents have resulted from his not taking over? I suspect that b) will be in the majority.

[Pace]

A Ryanair Boeing 737 captain involved in a serious incident during a thunderstorm near Rome was psychologically unfit to fly and his co-pilot, who had no experience of flying in bad weather, could not navigate the aircraft properly, an inquiry by Italian air accident investigators has found.

The captain, a Polish national, had attended the funeral of his infant son only a few days previously and told investigators he didn’t take extra leave because he feared losing his job.

The flight got lost in its attempts to land at Rome’s Fiumicino airport after it aborted an attempt to land at another Rome airport, Ciampino, during a thunderstorm.

Air traffic controllers were forced to intervene to prevent the possibility of mid-air collisions as the Ryanair jet either ignored controllers’ instructions or else failed to pick them up because they were on the wrong radio frequency, the Italian report concluded.

At one stage the aircraft flew at more than 322km/h just 450ft above the ground, when it should have been much higher. It also descended below a safe height near hills. At one stage during the incident, the Ryanair aircraft continued flying straight despite being instructed by controllers to turn right.

The incidents occurred on a daytime flight from Niederrhain, 70 km from Dusseldorf, to Rome’s Ciampino airport in September 2005 but it was almost four months before Italian investigators were told of it by the Irish Air Accident Investigation Branch. The report by the Italian government’s air accident investigation branch, the ANSV, has only recently been published.

Co-operation between the captain and co-pilot was poor, the report added. In addition, the inexperienced Dutch co-pilot was entering severe weather for the first time in his 475 flying hours of which just 300 hours had been spent in the cockpit of a Boeing 737. Investigators said he couldn’t cope with navigating the aircraft and programming the flight management computer. However he was credited with taking the decision to abort the approach and divert to a third Rome airfield, Pescaro, where they landed without further incident. The captain left Ryanair two years later. The co-pilot has since been promoted to captain.

The pilots also failed to preserve the flight’s records in the aircraft’s black boxes as required by Ryanair regulations.

Reconstruction of the incident, described as “serious” by Italian investigators, was only made possible by the radar records and air traffic tapes which showed the aircraft meandering around the skies above the airport and failing to line up properly with the runway.

The incident happened on their fourth flight of an 8.5 hour day which had started before 4am and investigators suggested fatigue may have been a contributory factor. Rome air traffic controllers were also faulted for failing to give the crew timely warnings of weather changes and using confusing phraseology. Investigators also called for improvements in local radar coverage.

When asked by investigators why he went back to work within days of burying his young son, who died after a three-month illness, the captain said he feared he would be sacked by Ryanair if he took any more leave. Ryanair yesterday said the man had no basis for saying this.

Both pilots were grounded when Ryanair learned of the incident and were given counselling and training, according to a statement by the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA). “Actions taken by them following their own investigation was prompt and provided all necessary support, guidance and training to the pilots.” The incident was also investigated by the IAA which determined it was the result of “an unfortunate human factors incident which should not have arisen” according to the IAA statement.

The Irish Airline Pilots Association said the IAA, which regulates Ryanair, should take part of the responsibility for the incident. “This serious incident focuses attention on a particular corporate culture in Irish aviation,” said association president Evan Cullen. “The very fact that an individual at the front line of a safety critical industry, is operating in fear of losing his job so soon after the death of his child raises serious concerns about the ability of the Irish Aviation Authority to regulate this industry.”

Source: Irish Times

[Mark1234]

The two crew stuff is interesting, but as a mere PPL who doesn't fly in such an environment.. I rather thought that was the whole point - monitoring and checking, with intervention if necessary. The terrorism bit is kinda funny; sadly in this day and age, I can see a 'hostile' takeover being treated as such, but really it's rather silly. Unlawful perhaps, but take a look at a dictionary definition of terrorism - it's not 'anything you don't like'!

What prompted this was a debate about being uncomfortable flying with other people, Fuji opined he'd be more concerned about the aeroplane because he could take over if necessary. Going back to the 'private flying', regime, for me PilotDAR's first post, first and last paragraphs pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I'm struggling to think of a scenario for the normal 'private flying' kind of activity where an immediate intervention would be required, rather than starting with 'is this really a good idea'.

I always ask pilots (and non pilots, for different reasons) flying with me to speak up early if there's anything that's making them uncomfortable. We can then and avoid dramatic actions at the last minute. I'd rather set them up as an ally, it's entirely possible they catch something I missed. I would however most likely be pretty upset if someone just grabbed the controls. I can only think of one occasion when someone's taken the controls from me because it's all going wrong, in that case he was my instructor, and to this day I can't explain why I was sat fat and happy in a 3 point attitude waiting for the wheels to touch at +20ft.. 1/2 a second later I was very relieved and somewhat embarrassed.

Again in the private / single pilot regime I believe that expectations are key - I am not comfortable with people who add knots for crosswind, family, and every excuse under the sun, then fly a warrior in at a high speed, usually on a long, flat approach with lots of power. They on the other hand would probably have a fit at me sideslipping in at idle with a considerably lower speed and high ROD. To a large extent, that's a product of the flying I've done, and the flying they've done. Neither is an excuse for a jump at the controls.

[SNS3Guppy]

Mark,

While the thread premise addresses a crew cockpit environment, certainly this has direct application to the private pilot, as well.

I flew tours in the Grand Canyon, mostly in Cessna 206's and 207's. I was with a load of tourists in a 207 one day, and noticed that every time I'd divert my attention outside for a few minutes, my power setting kept changing. I had the friction lock set, and it wasn't just the manifold pressure that was changing. The fuel flow varied as did the RPM.

I spied a passenger, sitting in the front right seat, wait until I was looking away, and then tweaking the power setting. I caught him doing it, and asked what he thought he was doing. Bearing in mind that we're in a heavily loaded single engine airplane over some very rough terrain with a lot of turbulence and often wind, I really didn't need someone else playing with my engine. The passenger told me that he owned a Cessna 206, and knew from his ownership that the airplane would operate much better at the power settings he was applying. I politely asked him not to do that any more.

A few moments later he did it again. I politely told him that if he touched the controls again, I would break his fingers.

Setting aside the legalities (it's illegal for him to manipulate the controls in that airplane in that operation), I didn't have time to discuss his mountain flying background, his 207 experience, his turbocharged experience, his high density altitude operations experience in type, and I really didn't care. At high power settings in the turbo 210, one can do serious damage to the engine in short order by improper leaning. Conversely, one can impact the fuel flow by changing the power settings, affecting my fuel reserve for the trip. I managed power with an eye to cylinder head temperatures as well; always a concern in that neck of the woods in the summer. If he caused me to have engine trouble, the consequences could be very dire. Moreover, I was trained and employed to do that job,and experienced doing it; he was not part of that operation, and had not met the requirements to be there.

That is nearly the exact opposite of the situations we've been discussing, but still an applicable tangent. Rather than taking control of someone else's show, this was a passenger improperly taking some measure of control with my own operation. Very inappropriate. This was a case in which the non-flying pilot/passenger (client, if you will; also client if you will not) needing to be controlled.

This wasn't a terrorist act, and it wasn't air piracy. It was an individual who acted beyond his appropriate bounds. What he may not have known about the 200 series Cessnas is that one can cause fuel flow fluctuations and ultimately engine failure by increasing the fuel flow too much, bypassing too much hot fuel to the wing root fuel kidney sump, which then passes hot vapor up the supply line from the wing and stops fuel flow to the selector, pump, and engine. Most pilots who fly 200 series Cessnas don't know this, including most owners. It's applicable to the 205, 206, 207, and 210. He acted in ignorance, and needed to be controlled.

Many years ago in Oklahoma, I taught a group of scouts their aviation merit badge,and promised each one an airplane ride if they completed the assignments. Each proudly completed their work, so on a Saturday morning we met at a grass airstrip, and I took each one for a ride in a Cessna 150.

I briefed them as a group before hand that I would do the takeoff, that they would get to fly the airplane once we were up and away, and I would do the landing. I encouraged them to follow through. The scoutmasters son was very short. He couldn't reach the rudder pedals. With his seatbelt fastened, he had to lean forward. During the takeoff roll, he leaned forward, wrapped both arms around the yoke, and hugged it to his chest. He sat back quickly, pulling the control yoke fully aft rapidly, and slappin the empennage against the grass runway. I pulled the throttle to idle quickly and stopped on the runway.

I found a channel carved in the grass, with a large divot of grass and mud jammed up between the rudder and empennage. An examination revelaed no damage, and we had a little talk,then went flying. He thoroughly enjoyed the flight, and left the airport with a positive experience.

There are various situations in flight in which you may encounter yourself faced with a passenger who panics, assumes control, blocks controls, reacts improperly, or does any number of things that are not expected, yet require your intervention during the flight.

During an evening IFR flight in a Seneca II, a passenger in the right seat experienced a heart attack, and slumped forward into the controls. He certainly wasn't a terrorist, and he wasn't attempting to cause me to experience control difficulties with the aircraft, yet he did.

On another occasion, the pilot flying in a Cessna 182 experienced a seat lock failure, with his seat rapidly sliding aft. He pitched up, holding onto the control yoke as he went. By taking control of the airplane quickly and blocking further aft movement of the control column, I was able to ensure a control loss or difficult situation didn't occur. This wasn't a matter of a terrorist, and it wasn't a matter of improperly seizing or "wresting" the airplane away. I simply physically took it from the other pilot, prevented the airplane from stalling or departing controlled flight, and gave it back when he had his situation again under control.

On another occasion as I taxied at night, again in a Seneca, my seatback failed. I fell backward, flat on my back. My feet came off the rudder pedals, and I couldn't see anything but the aircraft interior headliner. Fortunately this happened during a fairly low speed taxi. Had it been in flight, it would have been an excellent time for someone riding along to take the airplane quickly before something happened.

A month ago while flying into Kabul at night, we were descending and maneuvering for the localizer. I was not the pilot flying, but I observed the control column begin to vibrate rapidly, then heard several clicks behind me and to the right (circuit breakers opening as generators and busses went offline), and got a disconnect tone for the autopilot. The cockpit went dark, and the displays on one side of the cockpit went out. I took the controls briefly while we began to coordinate the problem, run checklists, and stabilize the situation while joining the localizer to land. Again, not a situation of terrorism or piracy, simply seeing a need, and filling it. Each crewmember addressed immediate action items, each did what needed to be immediately done, we communicated, we worked together, and shortly thereafter we were on the ground where we could troubleshoot more thoroughly.

You may be flying a light airplane which is served by a wing-leveler or simple autopilot. Many light airplanes do. The autopilot may be turned on, and you may be flying the airplane by operating the autopilot. I've experienced a number of runaways of autopilots, especially in ones installed in light airplanes. The autopilot may do that to you; taking control decisively before the trim is run all the way nose up or down, or even taking it and flying the airplane with the trim run to it's extreme limits, is a distinct possibility that shouldn't cause pause or hesitation.

You rent an airplane for the day, and take your friends and family along. You let them fly. You see a point during the flight when you must take control, and you do.

There is a nearly unending number of scenarios we could pull up to show that these types of things apply as equally to you as a private pilot in a light airplane, but I believe you get the point.

One area that private pilots generally don't tend to get any training is cockpit communication and resource management. You can have a passenger work for or against you, or simply be ballast. Personally, I like to use my passengers to help look for traffic, sometimes hold charts, and even act as impromptu autopilots. Often they're thrilled. It's possible that the passenger may do something wrong, perhaps completely unaware, perhaps intentionally, perhaps as an honest mistake. Passengers may get in over their head. They may get airsick. They may experience medical prolems, panic attacks, or any other number of situations one doesn't expect. I once was asked to fly a large woman from the Hopi Indian reservation to a hospital. She was very quiet, and while I waited for an ambulance to pick her up at the destination, I learned that it wasn't a simple transportation. She was a suicide patient. I hadn't been given that information, but she was twice my weight, and spent the flight in that light twin sitting next to me in the right seat. As you can imagine, I wasn't pleased.

During a landing on morning in a small twin turboprop, the young man in the right seat got ambitious and attempted to get stopped too soon on the runway. The airplane didn't have any antiskid, and he managed to nicely lock up both carbon brake assemblies and begin a reverberated rubber hydroplane that caused us to rapidly drift to one side of the runway. I yelled at him to get off the brakes, and he released his hands from the controls, but kept his feet on the brakes. He yelled "I'm off!" but kept applying the brakes. I took control of the airplane, yelled again to release the brakes, and ye replied that he was off the brakes, when he wasn't. I physically removed him from the controls and forced him back, while stopping the airplane before it left the edge of the runway.

In that particular case he was a copilot in a fractional charter operation. Instead of being a small turboprop, it could easily have been a small piston twin, and instead of a first officer he could have been a passenger, a buddy going for a flight with you, or any other scenario you could care to imagine. Who doesn't like to take their friends flying? Who doesn't like to split the cost of flying and share the flight with another flying buddy? Ever have someone do something unexpected?

One night as a private pilot, I split some time with another private pilot in a light single. We were doing some instrument flying, taking turns being safety pilot alternating with flying under a hood. It was very late at night, and we were in a remote area with few references. With or without the hood, we were flying on instruments. I was flying, and began to get warm. I had on a flight jacket, and attempted to remove it. In an acrobatic move I have yet to manage to duplicate to this day, I succeeded in getting my arms pinned back and stuck. It should have been a deft slipping off of the jacket, but I found myself unable to move, which naturally translated to being unable to fly the airplane.

Had I been single pilot, this boneheaded move on my part would have proven costly and potentially fatal. Fortunately, some quick communication lead to my safety pilot taking control of the airplane while I sorted out my new mentally-challenged escape trick. I knew of pilot who did that trick when he was flying a single seat crop duster, and it killed him. Again, you can see that the scenarios involving a change of control of the aircraft, an intervention, or handling of cargo, passengers, or any other number of situations are about as limited as your imagination; if you have a good imagination, then the possibilities are nearly endless.

One day while taking off in a 172 with a gentleman to whom I was giving a check-out for a flying club, we encountered something unusual at 150'. A large bumblebee flew out of the air vent, and began making it's rounds in the cockpit. The individual flying gave up flying the airplane, and began screaming, swatting, and of all things, throwing his very large, overstuffed wallet at the bee. In the meantime, I opened my side window and tried to usher the bee back to freedom. As you can guess, it was a very short time before the leather wallet full of cash and credit cards went flying out the window, though the bee remained.

The individual was very allergic to bees. I had no choice during the event but to take control, and while I was doing that, prevent his panic from interfering with the controls. The object was to get back on the ground in short order without causing a hazard, and to avoid his flying hands and fists. At the same time, I searched his gear for an epi-pen to give an injection in the event he did get stung. He was past rational thought and handling the situation; he wasn't thinking.

You can see that such a situation on his own, or with passengers, could have proven disasterous. Fortunately he had a flight instructor with him. A few months ago a pilot lost consciousness in a King Air, and a passenger took control and landed. These things happen. We hear about them from time to time. Rest assured that the scenarios, and particularly the principles that we're discussing most certainly apply to you, more directly than you might realize. I think that if you think about it, you'll come up with ample scenarios in which you could find yourself, in which these things surely do apply.

[Fuji Abound]

Mark1234


Fuji opined he'd be more concerned about the aeroplane because he could take over if necessary.


For others, to be clear, what I said was that IF the pilot did anything dangerous then the option existed to resolve the situation, whereas if you agree to fly in a poorly maintained aircraft there is little you can do when it breaks in the air.

I dont think in regard to this thread the grounds are that much different between any "multi crew" enviroment be it two PPLs flying together in a SEP (not multi crew in the legal sense) or two commercial pilots flying together in a jet. SNS3Guppy made a good point in noting that in the true multi crew enviroment procedures are in place to deal with just such circumstances; the same procedures would serve two PPLs equally as well.

I suspect some of the reservations expressed on this thread stem from overbearing instructors who want to take control at every opportunity or reservations about why the chap in the right seat should "be better" than me - the flying pilot. I think this can be dangerous.

I related an example where the pilot "refused" to execute a go around despite having descended below DH and not establishing visual. It turns out he thought he would very soon become visual based on the ATIS and could safely conclude the flight. Presumably that is exactly what he would have attempted had he been on his own. The fact is he was already 150 feet below the DH and not visual when I decided I had had enough. Now whether he liked it or not forcing the go around was safe; even if I had misread the DH it didnt endanger the flight and having re-establsihed in the hold there was plenty of time to debate. The fact that I hadnt and he wanted to establish his own DH was another debate in itself but whether he liked it or not I wasnt going to descend 150 feet below the DH again with the hills behind the approach. My point is right or wrong it was better to debrief on a dangerous situation after the event rather than allow events to unfold with disasterous consequences.

Bose

I dont understand your argument. It is unusual for you to take a view that is so out of keeping with most others and I am intrigued why?

[Pace]

Mark

Just to add to Guppys excellent response Pilots who fly single pilot are far more at risk of an accident than with a proper crew situation.

Some of the Citations I fly can be flown SP in some parts of the world and in certain operations.
Statistically the accident rate in those SP jets increases dramatically when flown SP (Single Pilot)

Starting with a PPL most low time PPLs will take family and friends for short hops in good weather and low winds. They fly well within their limits.
As they become more experienced they broaden their horizons and fly further afield. Often on pure costs these become shared flights so you end up with two PPLs flying leg about. Now you have a crew albeit not a trained crew.

In leaisure flying there are pilots and there are pilots some are pilots of the "right stuff" who are very competant can keep up with the game others are not so competant but are perfectly safe when in the right conditions.
The more further afield we go the less likely that weather will be constant throughout the trip.

When a pilot becomes overloaded his performance will start to decrease.

I remember an IMCR PPL who had gone out of his comfort zone on a single pilot flight in bad weather. He landed safely but was so stressed out he could not remember his own name and walked about like a vacant zombie when he exited the aircraft on landing and that was an example of overloading.

We all have different brains and different abilities to take in visual information as well as multi tasking as well as different abilities to deal with fear.

On airline selections candidates are put through multiple tests to check those abilities.
Not so in the PPL leaisure flying world. We are a very mixed bunch some are more able some less.

I liked Guppies reference to incapacitation. Obviously if the PIC drops dead at the controls he is incapacitated and another pilot in the right seat will have to fly.

For me incapacitation means that for whatever reason a pilot is unable to handle a situation as it should be handled. Whether that means he does not have the natural skills or abilities to handle certain weather or wind conditions or he has stressed himself out so much that his clear thinking brain has ceased to function then in my book he is incapacitated.

In that situation it is quite right for another pilot to intervene. Hopefully another pilot will have taken away many of the chores which will stop this pilot becoming overlaoded and as such will not have to interfere with the aircraft handling but not always!!!

So its really about flying within your personal limits whether new PPL experienced PPL ATP or whatever single pilot or crew.
It is when we go out of our limits that problems arise..

Fuji just read your piece which is slightly different as it appears that here you are dealing with a bravado risk taker pilot willing to go below minima and you over ruling his decision. You were quite right to do so! He may have been an excellent handling pilot but over cocky and overconfident which is a different problem again to the ones we have discussed.

Pace

[Fuji Abound]

Pace

Yes a slight different situation.

I guess there are various reasons why pilots might place themselves in a dangerous situations - these include bravado, inexperience, being overloaded, tired, and even convinced they know best.

I was once flying with a chap who was reasonably solid. We did a complicated bit of nav through a few bits of very busy controlled airspace. For the final leg he managed to fly in totally the opposite direction. While there was no need to intervene on the controls of course I would never have believed had I not seen it with my own eyes how totally convinced he was that there was nothing wrong and how easily he would have bust Stansted class D. The chap was just totally overloaded and ended up really flustered. In just such circumstances had we been in IMC I dont doubt he could have very easily lost control as well.

On that particular pin at times I guess we have all danced (and may yet dance again) and for that reason I will never complain when the chap next to me gives the controls a wake up nudge if I am doing something stupid.

[SNS3Guppy]

Ever had someone attempt to shut down the wrong engine in flight, before? I have had that several times. If one is paying attention and guarding the engine controls, one can prevent fast hands from making light work.

It is intervening in someone else's actions with regard to the airplane, but it's some necessary intervening unless one intends to drastically alter one's plans.

I once watched an individual shut down both engines in a Twin Commanche as he prepared to land; he thought he had hold of both throttles, instead had both propeller levers, and feathered both engines simultaneously. That's not easy to do.

More than once, others have watched a pilot leave the gear up as he approaced to land, and said nothing. Famous comments like "I thought he was flying." or "he seemed to know what he was doing" sometimes trail in such disasters.

Many years ago, a freefall cameraman managed to get out the door on a jump while wearing his camera gear and no parachute. How many people on that airplane had an opportunity to observe him not wearing his gear? Nobody stopped him, nobody intervened. Perhaps in the final analysis we believe we all have the right to our own stupidity, but in the end, nobody pays alone for their own sins. Nothing we do affects us in a vacuum. Every action we take ripples and impacts other people, whether it's the family for whom we provide, grieving parents, or the schoolhouse full of little children upon which we inadvertently "land" in the haste to exercise our god-given right to be stupid.

Someone nearby, anyone, might just have the courage to intervene...

[172driver]

Starting with a PPL most low time PPLs will take family and friends for short hops in good weather and low winds. They fly well within their limits.
As they become more experienced they broaden their horizons and fly further afield. Often on pure costs these become shared flights so you end up with two PPLs flying leg about. Now you have a crew albeit not a trained crew.

Correct, but there are a couple of things you can do to mitigate this situation.

Whenever I fly with a pilot friend, we always brief:
a) the route: routing, navaids, alternates, cruising alt, controlling agencies, etc. This way, both pilots are mentally engaged and on the same page.
b) roles in the cockpit: IOW - who flies, who monitors, when. Also, if one of us is less familiar with a given a/c, who has control when or at what point it is transferred (see also my earlier post re this).

I've never done a MCC or any other CRM course, neither have the friends I fly with. It does, however, help to try to approximate a multi-crew environment, even in private flying.

When flying with non-pilot pax, I try to engage them and help with lookout, hold the charts, etc. Most people enjoy being 'part of it' rather than ballast.

[Pace]

172Driver

I see no reason why the flight schools could not add a mini MCC course designed for PPLS

Pace

[englishal]

I've taken control a couple of times during landing. It was instinctive, the chap let his airspeed decay far too low (despite me shouting airspeed at him when I noticed) and we started to sink like a stone with no attempt at a flare and I felt it was going to end badly. So I instinctively grabbed the stick and hauled back which managed to cushion the blow somewhat and save the nose wheel I reckon.

I must add that I knew the other pilot was less experienced and I was flying with him as safety pilot as he felt uncurrent.

[S-Works]

Bose

I dont understand your argument. It is unusual for you to take a view that is so out of keeping with most others and I am intrigued why?

Because for the life of me I am sat here reading this and wonder what on earth gives these people the right to think they can handle a situation any better. Multi crew situations I can understand, there are 2 crew on a flight deck for a purpose and training and selection has pretty much eliminated the old horror stories of the first officer having to override the captain for safety reasons. My understanding of a modern multi crew flight deck is that it is a collaborative environment, not a dictatorship. I would expect a first officer with reservations to express them to the captain and only need to intervene in the most life threatening of situations. You don't hear of them much these days if at all.....

As far a passenger flying in a GA aircraft, where on earth do people get off thinking they have the experience and skill just to jump in and take over at there whim?

Put it another way Fuji, I take you for a flight in the Dornier, you don't like the look of my flying and feel that you need to 'wrest' control from me. Please explain exactly how you plan on putting down several tonnes of turboprop on your own?

As an Instructor I am used to intervening when students make mistakes, but that is because a 'contract' exists between student and Instructor as to the nature of the flight and the Instructors right to intervene at anytime and if necessary take control of the aircraft. The Instructor bears the responsibility of ensuring they are familiar with the aircraft and capable of taking control and safely returning to the runway as required.

As a passenger, I am just that a passenger and as such I would be very wary of thinking I had the right to hijack an aircraft in flight because I did not like the way it was being flown. Once you have taken command you become responsible for the safety of the flight.

I also happen to think that the currency and testing requirements are up to the job and outside of a teaching environment generally give people enough credit to trust they are up to the job. If you suspect they are not, then don't go flying with them.....

[Pilot DAR]

Interesting thoughts here with respect to formal two crew flying environments. Those such operations are nearly always beyond the scope of private flying, the certainly do merit consideration by private pilots. My two crew flying of the early 80's was unfortunately rather informal, and as it was corporate, not airlines, it probably predated the adoption of those good practices into most two crew operations. Happily, I expect that this co-ordinated approach would be much more the norm now. From time to time, test flying I do, pairs me with a second pilot who does, and requires that I do things properly, and I respect that. It is excellent discipline!

As I read here the very correct references to "challange and response", I am reminded that that is where I have got it wrong in the various events where I felt I had to take over. I did not (out of a sense of courtesy) challenge, and I should have - much earlier. I just quietly waited to see if things got better, assuming the other pilot would see what I was seeing, without my prompting. Sometimes yes, sometimes no - then suddenly I have no time to ease things to be better, I just have to jump right in and take over. Not so good. Ideas in this thread have promoted a better way of thinking for me - thanks!

During my receiving advanced helicopter training, I was always concious of my "getting close to the edge" (toe ins in confined areas seemed the most tense), as I would notice my mentor pilot's hands go from being folded across his chest, to resting on his knees, to finally being poised right in the position to grab the controls instantly. He actually apologized for doing this, but told me there was no room for me to make a mistake, and his having time to reach across quickly enough to fix it. Pilot briefing - perfectly fine! "that's why I'm flying with you" I told him. I knew I was getting really good training!

Most of my episodes of suddenly realizing that I'd better do something quick to save the day, occurred while I was flying as a mentor pilot, to a lesser experienced pilot on an advanced single propeller aircraft. Being young and poor, I would be in awe of these doctor lawyer types who could afford a brand new Cessna 185 or 206 amphibian. It just seemed natural, that if they could afford the plane, they could fly it. Who am I to interfere? Well, the insurance companies were requiring that a pilot like me (still only a modest PPL though - no sky god) "do 10 hours" with these pilots. I began to understand why. Being able to afford it, has nothing to do with being able to fly it well!

In one case, a pilot new owner of a Bellanca Viking was my charge. After 17 hours of flying it, and it being long past the planned time for him to take it home, I told him that I would not be able to recommend him to be insured yet. He was polite to me, but took it anyway. He made it as far as I know, but I worried.

Reading Guppy's event with the "helper" pilot in the 207, yeah, that guy would be incurring my wrath very quickly, and probably be promptly taken home.

[Fuji Abound]

I think "whim" is far too cavalier and I dont think anyone has suggested it would be appropriate in those circumstances. However I guess one man's whim isnt anothers.

However to deal with specifics - there have been some good examples given. What would you do? Pick a few.

For example the pilot descends below the DH and keeps going? You have asked him to go around - but he doesnt. Do you allow him to keep going down?

Put it another way Fuji, I take you for a flight in the Dornier, you don't like the look of my flying and feel that you need to 'wrest' control from me. Please explain exactly how you plan on putting down several tonnes of turboprop on your own?


As a complete aside as it happens I have landed many tons of jet so I'd give it a go BUT of course I would not want to. I do know if you kept on descending below the DH the point would come that I would do something about it but I'd be happy to hand the controls back to you once you had sorted yourself out or demonstrated you had a very good reason for flying us into a hill side.

[BackPacker]

It does, however, help to try to approximate a multi-crew environment, even in private flying.

Actually this is the stuff that I find most scary.

During our PPL training we've had at least 45 hours of training all geared towards Single Pilot operations. We're trained to handle everything on our own, from the moment we start flying solo.

To properly perform in a Multi-crew environment requires an extensive training course which, as I understand, not just touches on the issue of transferring control and separation of duties/responsibilities, but also talks extensively about human psychology.

To start operating in a quasi-MCC mode without this extensive training, but with just a briefing on the route you're going to fly sounds very dangerous. The big trap of course is that the "designated" PIC (the one who signs for the aircraft, or however that's arranged) is the less experienced one, and flies the aircraft into a situation beyond his capabilities, in the hope/assumptioin that the "experienced" passenger will take over. Who is then confronted with a situation that he probably would have averted long ago.

So I'd rather fly a 100% single pilot operation than a half-baked MCC one. If I have an experienced pilot with me, I may give him a few tasks to perform, like flying the aircraft for a bit, or tuning the radios, but I'm not going to defer any responsibility to him, or in another way implicitly rely on his skills to bring the flight to a successful conclusion.

[S-Works]

As a complete aside as it happens I have landed many tons of jet so I'd give it a go BUT of course I would not want to. I do know if you kept on descending below the DH the point would come that I would do something about it but I'd be happy to hand the controls back to you once you had sorted yourself out or demonstrated you had a very good reason for flying us into a hill side.

So you would have a go at landing it? And if you get it wrong?

So you were in such danger that you wrested control from me and then think that for some reason I am going to have sorted myself out enough to land the thing? How does that work then?

As far answering the scenarios I have seen so far on this thread, I have seen old timers stories of the horrors of the multicrew cockpit in the frozen to death days and a couple of PPL anecdotes. Multicrew stories from old timers are just that, stories. If you can show me occurrences from this century that warrant the discussion then fair enough. The only one I can think of was some arab first officer who sat frozen praying to allah and had to be removed from the flight deck. The multicrew environment is so well trained and regulated these days that if you so much as fart out of place the company will pick it up and wash it through the safety management system.

I would like to think that those of us flying Single Crew Commercialy are also trained and regulated to the same level of professionalism of a multi crew aircraft. Again the extremely low accident rate would bare this out.

So moving onto the flyers in there spam cans. If you take the Instructing scenario out of this the only stories on here are anecdotal from people who think they knew better than the pilot in command and either intervened in a small way by calling out with advice or felt the urge to offer an element of physical assistance. But in the examples quoted by Pace for example, how was he to know that in the split second he took control the pilot was not going to go around and have another go. What would have happened if despite his 3000hrs on Senecas he had binned it? I would bet the guy in the LHS would have said that he had it under control and Pace intervened without authority. That would make for an interesting insurance claim and AIB report!!

What I was trying to point out with the quote if the dictionary terms is there is a difference between offering assistance and even being given control as a result of the offer and seizing or wresting control from the lawful commander.......

[BackPacker]

If you can show me occurrences from this century that warrant the discussion then fair enough.

Turkish Airlines flight 1951, 25 feb 2009. Crashed on approach to the Polderbaan (18R) to Schiphol Airport (EHAM), which incidentally is about 10km from my home.

Turkish Airlines Flight 1951 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951)

In addition to the (training) captain and first officer, there was another (trainee) pilot on board.

To this day nobody (including the official investigation) has been able to answer the question why none of the three on the flight deck noticed that the flight director/autopilot, based on wrong information from the RadAlt, let the speed decay to well below Vref and eventually to Vs, while they were still miles short of the threshold and 1000' above.

Curiously, the CVR recording has never been released in full (as far as I know) and the investigation report only lists those snippets of conversation of the last five minutes of flight time that it deems important. But these are only the routine callouts and R/T conversations. I still wonder what went on in that cockpit that's not being reported.

[S-Works]

So in fact it looked like nobody wrested control and saved the day in that example backbacker...... back to my original point methinks.

My question was around specific incidents on a modern airliner in recent times where control has been wrested from commander in order to save the aircraft and lives of the passengers.

[Fuji Abound]

So you would have a go at landing it? And if you get it wrong?


No, unless there was a very good reason to do so - like you were incapacitated.

So you were in such danger that you wrested control from me and then think that for some reason I am going to have sorted myself out enough to land the thing? How does that work then?



.. because the pilot does something dangerous it doesnt mean he is incapable of eventually landing the aircraft.

who think they knew better than the pilot in command

I am not sure that is the correct way to look at it because it would seem to deny the human condition - viz the pilot is in command and he is always right. We are all capable of making mistakes. We are potentially all capable of busting a DH and being so focused we keep on going.

[S-Works]

LOL, we are going around in circles on this one..... :hmm:

[Pace]

Bose written on I phone. I am sure you are the type of pilot who would never need taking over but I am amazed that other than with students you have never as a very experienced pilot had to do so with a lesser pilot.
Btw I would be happy to land your Dornier :E
As for the Seneca porpoise you obviously have never experienced it. The worst thing you can do is stamp on the brakes as the bucking gets worse and self perpetuating until the nose collapses. That pilot did exactly that frozen at the controls a passenger to an out of control aircraft.
There is only one way out and I have no hesitation in taking control and saving the aircraft.
As for commercial ops there are scores of examples the Ryanair 737 details I posted here.

Pace

[Mark1234]

On this occation, I find myself firmly in Bose's camp. I'm also inclined to think that descents below DH in IFR conditions have rather little to do with the normal private pilot experience - yes, I'm sure some do, and I'm lead to believe that single pilot IFR is one of the most intense things you can do, therefore presumably far more likely to suffer from fixation, and loosing the big picture. Presumably that's why single pilot ops in citations are more risky - it's a lot of complexity, and a lot of aeroplane.

Fuji - if you felt I misrepresented you, sorry, that wasn't my intention.

I entirely encourage anyone flying with me to input, I will take hints, I'm not proud. What you percieve as dangerous might not be. If you tell me it's bothering you, I'll try to avoid doing so, but if I am PIC, and it is not a comittee. You may equally be the person that percipitates an accident - what makes you think your judgement is necessarily superior? (Of course, if you/I am flying with an instructor, he/she is PIC, and can pull rank whenever they want. That's what they're there for).

Maybe it's a matter of terminology, but it seems to me that a lot of the examples I read here are a matter of taking control and assisting, and not of 'wresting' control from an uncooperative pilot. I don't think I ever suggested that was inappropriate.

[blagger]

It should also be remembered that it should only be rarely that Instructors take control off the student in an 'emergency' type fashion - if things get to that stage it's generally only on take-off or landing, and there is normally plenty of opportunities leading up to that stage where the situation can be managed such that it doesn't become a drama.

[S-Works]

Bose written on I phone. I am sure you are the type of pilot who would never need taking over but I am amazed that other than with students you have never as a very experienced pilot had to do so with a lesser pilot.
Btw I would be happy to land your Dornier
As for the Seneca porpoise you obviously have never experienced it. The worst thing you can do is stamp on the brakes as the bucking gets worse and self perpetuating until the nose collapses. That pilot did exactly that frozen at the controls a passenger to an out of control aircraft.
There is only one way out and I have no hesitation in taking control and saving the aircraft.
As for commercial ops there are scores of examples the Ryanair 737 details I posted here.

Pace

Firstly the Ryanair incident does not tie with the theme of the thread.

You know what, PM me, I will arrange for you to attempt to land the Dornier. I shall video it and we can share it here via YouTube.

I have experienced many cases of mishandling the Seneca, you tend to come across them as ME Instructor and Examiner. Notwithstanding this my comment still stands from earlier.

I can also say that it I have never 'wrested' control from a student either. teaching is about collaboration. We follow through and assist. Wresting control does nothing to foster a learning environment.

[englishal]

I'll have a go at landing the Dornier. In the second world war, ladies used to ferry various aeroplanes around and may be given command of a bomber having never flown one before. They'd read the relevant pages before landing....so yes please, I'll have a go, and you can film it if you like :ok:

But seriously, if I at any time felt my life was in danger I'd do something about it and not just sit there and hope for the best. Luckily someone did that for me in a Seneca when I really ballsed up a landing when I was learning to fly it :O

Bose, out of interest, do you have your FI ratings now or are you still a class rating instructor / examiner? I would imagine there is a difference in teaching inital instruction and those who already hold a ticket of some sort....which is why I guess a CRI/CRE can instruct on a PPL.

[S-Works]

Blimey, a bit arrogant thinking you know all about me Al.

I hold an FI which has been unrestricted for a number of years. I also hold an FE as well as CRE. I am also authorised to test for Type Ratings in Single Pilot Aeroplanes if that helps you. Kind of required to be employed Head of Training at a JAA UK FTO/TRTO......

I'll have a go at landing the Dornier

Do you know how many vastly more experienced pilots than you have thought they could land it and had the smile wiped off their faces? ;)

You can teach on a PPL with a CRI but to be any type of flight Examiner requires a CPL by the way.

[Pilot DAR]

Bose,

I trust that your Dornier is FAR 25 compliant, and, in particular meets the requirements of FAR 25.125, Landing, which says, in part:

(5) The landings may not require exceptional piloting skill or alertness.

[MIKECR]

What on earth kind of Dornier is this that's such a handful to land?? Genuine question....:) 228? 328??

[MIKECR]

Sorry wasnt really interested in any willy wavin. Was genuinely curious about the Dornier. I have a coule of mates fly the 328 TP with Scot Air/Cityjet, and an ex colleague who now flies a 228 on various contracts such as maritime patrol, reconnaisance etc. Never heard any of them suggest it was a handful to land. On the contrary,the 328 was described as a dream to fly...fast as well, at 335kts TAS.

[SNS3Guppy]

Please explain exactly how you plan on putting down several tonnes of turboprop on your own?

Oh, please.

Exactly the same way as a Cessna 172, which is surprisingly nearly identical to the way one lands a C-130, and a whole lot like the way one lands a 747. The view from the cockpit changes a little, but it's not exactly rocket science.

What are you flying...Dornier 128, perhaps? Ten thousand gross takeoff or so, four hundred hp motors? Slower than a King Air, less power? A dreaded tailwheel?

None of that is really relevant to the question of taking control if the situation warrants, however. Rest assured that if assuming control is necessary, everything else pales by comparison, and is relatively unimportant.

Nobody is talking about a situation in which someone simply enters into a normal, routine flight situation, and elects to take control simply for the hell of it.

Do you know how many vastly more experienced pilots than you have thought they could land it and had the smile wiped off their faces?

I'd be delighted to have you wipe the smile off my face. It might not be as easy as you think, of course, because given the chance, you'd find I'll be grinning like a loon.

You're welcome of course, and expected, to take control at anytime you deem necessary. It's expected, you see.

I can also say that it I have never 'wrested' control from a student either.

I surely have.

If you can show me occurrences from this century that warrant the discussion then fair enough.

I've already shown you numerous examples. People whine that a professional cockpit doesn't relate, so I include light airplane cockpits, private situations, student situations, passenger situations, you name it...still not happy.

The truth is that you'll argue the point and dismiss every example, holding up the unfathomable and mysterious Dornier as the true test, for whatever it's worth, and will disregard any evidence to the contrary. Whatever floats your boat.

The truth is that situations in which a pilot may need to intervene are very possible in a private, light airplane environment, every bit as much as complex advanced cockpit environments, and most certainly the need may arise in a single pilot cockpit as much as a crew environment. I've experienced both, and have cited examples. Amazingly, these didn't take place hundreds of years ago. Go figure.

What I was trying to point out with the quote if the dictionary terms is there is a difference between offering assistance and even being given control as a result of the offer and seizing or wresting control from the lawful commander.......

When it comes to taking control, it's a rubber-meets-the-road occasion. The difference isn't semantics, and it isn't an issue of who is "lawful" or not. It's not a law issue. It's a safety of flight issue, and it's a matter of live-man vs. dead-man. If something isn't going right, say something. If that doesn't do it, do something. After that, hope for someone nice to care for your next of kin. Game over.

Then again, as we've shown, control may be the passenger who experiences a heart attack and collapses into the controls. Not really a terrorist act, but a struggle to take controls none the less (ever tried to fly with an unconscious person slumped into the controls, while removing that person single pilot, communicating, navigating, and aviating (not necessarily in that order)? I have. You could, too. It does happen. It may be the 300 lb. quiet suicide patient in the right seat, unbeknownst to you, that chooses this moment, here, now, in cruise, or on approach, to take control. Wresting control may be from a "lawful commander," a passenger, an unconscious person, another pilot, a second in command, or whatever else one cares to imagine. One had better be prepared to do so, without hesitation, and had better be able to recognize that moment when it arrives.

When it's time to take control, who really cares what the dictionary has to say on the matter. The theoretical part of the flight is over, and it's time to wake up to reality. If you don't, you may never wake up.

Conversely, many times taking control may be a temporary act, a stabilizing event. This you dismiss, but it's a fact of life and shouldn't be denied. Just like the fact that many engine failures are actually partial-power failures, rather than catastrophic losses, many situations involving taking control aren't a full blown mutiny, aren't a complete takeover. One may only intervene, in many cases, as far as necessary.

I once arrived at a busy terminal area to find the destination suddenly closed, and the alternate closed. We were given a hold. I advised my fellow pilot that we had fuel for two turns in the hold, and we'd need to go elsewhere. When we were given an expect-further-clearance (EFC) time of more than a half-hour, my cohort accepted it from ATC. I immediately called back and told ATC we could take two turns, and would be moving on. Two turns later in the hold, ATC advised 45 more minutes of holding. My buddy took it in stride, and accepted the new delay. I immediately keyed the mic and advised ATC that we were minimum fuel and needed go somewhere now. We were given direct to the field and were first for landing.

This was a case of one pilot being willing to compromise his fuel and let it dwindle, and one who took charge, and made the call. Was this a hostile takeover? No, but it was unequivocal, and an intervention none the less.

When faced with a situation during an approach at which the approach lights do not appear at minimums, I know many pilots who are willing to press just a little farther. Wait just a little longer, Fudge those minimums. I'm quite willing to key the mic and advise ATC that we're going missed approach, making the decision at that point. The fact is that if either pilot calls for a go-around, it shouldn't be debated; it should be executed. If one is going below minimums and the missed is called out, it needs to be executed.

Consider it from a slightly different perspective. I have EGPWS on board, which for those who aren't familiar, is a terrain avoidance system. It uses a map database of obstacles and terrain in concert with radar altimetry and a computer to provide advance warnings of various unsafe situations. If we are faced with an aural warning "Pull up! Pull up!", accompanied by large red letters across our Attitude Display Indicator saying the same thing, we don't have any option to continue. We do as we're directed immediately, initiating a recovery maneuver. We don't disregard the call, and we are forced to take action, no matter how sure we are that we're right.

When this occurs, it doesn't happen during a moment of incapacitation. It's not during a moment of catatonic behavior. It may be during a routine, normal approach, insofar as the crew is concerned.

Last night I experienced a Resolution Advisory on a Traffic Collision Avoidance Situation. We were where we were supposed to be, tracking the navigation we had been assigned, at the altitude to which we were cleared, flying level. Another aircraft descended into us and presented a collision hazard. This is a rare event, but I immediately did as I was directed by the TCAS equipment, disconnecting the autopilot and manually descending at the rate prescribed. By following the Resolution Advisory, we passed the other traffic with a thousand feet of separation. We would not have had that separation, otherwise and would have been in a very unsafe condition.

Is there much difference between the TCAS equipment ordering me to "Descend! Descend!" and another person in the cockpit ordering me to "Descend!" or "Pull Up!" or "Go Around!" No. Whether it's automated equipment intervening, or another person, the semantics aren't important. Only safety.

During a thunderstorm penetration in a Learjet 35A, I experienced a violent upset. It broke headsets I had loaned to sensor operators seated in back. It stripped components out of my laptop frame, inside it's padded container in the baggage area. For a moment, all wind noise around the cockpit seemed to stop. Even belted in tightly, my head bounced off the side of the cockpit. I got a stick shaker, and then a pusher.

A pusher is a device which takes control away from me. At first the shaker goes off, which is a stall warning. Anyone who has flown a light airplane with a stall warning understands the horn, or light or other device that alerts the pilot to an excessive angle of attack. They will understand the buffet, too. In the learjet, a box with an offset weight shakes the control column during an impending stall. If the stall progresses into a greater angle of attack, a pusher yanks the stick out of the pilots hands and pushes the control column forward to reduce angle of attack. That's what happened to us.

While that was occurring, I continued the roll to unload the wings and let the nose fall through, applied firewall thrust minus an inch, and recovered from the upset. As soon as the stall was broken, the airplane returned control to me. The pusher doesn't retain control; it's only there to adjust the bad situation and apply an immediate corrective action. It did exactly as it was supposed to do, and yes, it did wrest control from my hands. Is this really so different form a person performing the same action? Not in the least, and certainly not when the issue is safety of flight...which is the reason we may be faced with wresting control from someone, or some thing.

Again conversely, I've also been in situations involving a runaway autopilot. In these events, the autopilot rapidly ran the airplane nose up or nose down, or took other actions that required pilot intervention. Is there really any difference between taking control from the autopilot when it screws up, to taking control from another pilot? No. None. Whomever might be assigned as the "lawful commander" is at that time entirely irrelevant.

The need to take control doesn't happen often, but it's something one should be prepared to do all the time, any time, and to do so without hesitation. Advising folks that this constitutes an act of air piracy or terrorism, or that they're not going to be able to handle the airplane after the fact, is dangerous advice, indeed. You should probably stop.

[Pace]

You know what, PM me, I will arrange for you to attempt to land the Dornier. I shall video it and we can share it here via YouTube.

Bose

I will gladly take you up on that challenge it sounds like fun and I cannot resist a challenge ;) will PM you but will also warn you that I have never landed any aircraft badly ( Even a Seneca in 40kts 90 degree crosswind) so the Dornier will have to be the first and happy for it to go on YouTube.

Do you expect me to do it off a loop with both engines shut down and a glass of the finest champagne on top of the panel? I am not that good :E

Might even do an exchange and see how you get on with the citation ? a baby in comparison I am sure to the Dreaded Dornier :E

Take care
Looking forward to it :ok:

Pace

[MIKECR]

Sorry...still left guessing what this beast of a Dornier is? Why's it so difficult to land? Nothing remotely on UK CAA database that resembles a single Dornier with a TP up front.

[Pilot DAR]

So, back to the subject of the original post (not that Dorniers don't intrest me, but another time....)

On the obverse of the topic... I was once receiving familiarization from a very compotent water pilot. Just after my reasonably good landing, while still moving about 60 kts, he said "let go". I looked over to make sure he did have control (not that I had any reason to doubt him). As I looked over, he again said "let go", and slapped my wrist. So rather stunned at this request, I complied. The problem was that aside from lifting his hand, to slap my wrist, his hands were flat on his lap!

With no one commanding the pitch or roll of the aircraft, and still moving quickly across the water, it behaved every bit as well as I could have flown it.

Prior to that, you could not have convinced me to let go control of an aircraft on the step on the water. Control was taken from me by gentle force, and it worked out fine!

That said, this is not my instruction to seaplane pilots to let go of the controls while moving on the water! Fly the plane all the time!

[Pace]

Pilot Dar

they all fly fine if left to their own devices properly trimmed! Its the pilots who screw them up :E

Pace

[MIKECR]

Only Dornier TP's I can seem to find flying in UK(apart from the 228/328 series flying with the airlines) would appear to be the old DO 28/128 types flying mad meat bombing parachustists around. Whats the vice with these old taildraggers thats such a challenge to land? A genuinely interested question....as i've flown lots of tailwheel hours, as well as TP's.

[SNS3Guppy]

Tradition counsel places a brick, a duck, a cat, and a dog in the cockpit, for safety.

The brick is there if the pilot loses his car keys. When lost at altitude and unsure which way is up, toss out the car keys. Lacking the keys toss the brick. Follow it down; it should head toward earth. The duck loves wet weather. When truly in doubt, toss out the duck and follow that. It does much better than you do.

If you've used up your keys, the brick, and the duck, toss up the cat (don't toss it out; they hate water). The cat always lands on it's feet. It if happens to land on the ceiling, then you're probably inverted. Fix that first. This works best with declawed cats that don't stick to the ceiling. Or to you.

The dog is there to bite the pilot if he tries to touch anything.

[Tinstaafl]

Boxe-X,

Are you utterly immune from ever making a mistake or from being so task focused that other important issues aren't noticed? Would you rather crash with that mistake or, if someone happened to be in the seat next to you and realised such a situation was occuring, have them take action to prevent or correct the problem?

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention. Even better if I fail to correct the problem if they make sure it's done. I admit it - I'm not immune from screwing up. Of course a lot of times someone else's concern isn't safety of flight related but a brief discussion soon takes care of that.

[SNS3Guppy]

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention.

Ain't that the truth. Unless one is open to input from anyone and everyone during the performance of one's duties, one may very well shut out the single voice that saves the day.

In a crew cockpit takeoff safety briefing, the single most important part of the briefing comes at the end, right after the briefer (pilot flying) says "any questions?"

He listens.

Same goes for briefing passengers. Doors, seatbelts, oxygen, inflight snacks, parachutes, potty...should end in any questions? Then listen. Be open to feedback for that operation, by those intimately involved (and whose lives depend on it's successful conclusion).

Never forget that while the PIC may hold the legal responsibility for the safe outcome of the flight, everybody on board is betting their lives on the same thing.

[englishal]

Blimey, a bit arrogant thinking you know all about me Al.
Sorry, must have picked that up from Pproooon ;) I thought in the past you posted that you were CRI with PPL,and I know you can become CRE even with a foreign (FAA) CPL but JAA PPL so I assumed....

Still, the Dornier, yep I would love to have a go at it. I found landing the B200 pretty easy, same as any other plane really, just keep the speeds right, though it doesn't have a tail wheel of course. Without reading the Dornier POH I reckon I'd set up a constant attitude on approach, similar to a seaplane glassy water landing, and just fly the thing into the ground for a 3 pointer and see what happens...And I'd be more than happy for you to take control to save the day if I mess it up :ok:

(PS I wouldn't say the Christen Eagle is a girly plane, the idea of landing one of those on a short runway is quite scary if you ask me....)...

[Fuji Abound]

I will gladly take you up on that challenge it sounds like fun and I cannot resist a challenge

and

Still, the Dornier, yep I would love to have a go at it.

and

Still waiting for the date your comin down to EGHS


Bose

I think you laid down the challenge.

You have three good offers and it would make for a good youtube film.

Now come on, you going to put up .. .. .. ?

I will even chip in with the costs.

http://www.skydiving.co.uk/Images/ExperiencedAircraft.jpg

[S-Works]

Are you utterly immune from ever making a mistake or from being so task focused that other important issues aren't noticed? Would you rather crash with that mistake or, if someone happened to be in the seat next to you and realised such a situation was occuring, have them take action to prevent or correct the problem?

This is not about me, although there a few that seem to want to make it so.

I am merely questioning the legality of a PASSENGER SEIZING control of an aircraft because they think they know better than the pilot. I question the legality of this.

When I'm flying I have no qualms about someone else bringing a safety or legal issue to my attention. Even better if I fail to correct the problem if they make sure it's done.

That is very different from WRESTING control of the aircraft. I see nothing wrong with a pilot giving advice to another pilot. I have issue with command of the aircraft being seized with the caveat as I said earlier unless it is absolutely in the need to save life and then I would expect to be having a conversation on the ground with higher authority about it.

If the pumped egos on here think they know better and think its acceptable for them to WREST control of an aircraft from the legal commander then so be it.

I don't think it is legal, I think it has way to many ramifications and making personal insults and trying to attack peoples credability in order to bully them into your way of thinking is nothing less than I expect from PPrune.

To answer the question on the Dorniers, they are DO28 Twin Turboprops powered by Walther G92 engines. They are tailwheel and and used around the world for everything from Parachute dropping to Cargo and Air Taxi. A combination of the turbine handling and tailwheel make them difficult to handle on the ground as well as take off and landing. Even pilots with a lot of tailwheel experience take considerable training to be able to handle them. In the scenarios given in this thread the only thing that would happen if someone WRESTED control of one is that we would go from possible disaster to certain disaster as I am sure despite the ego driven skygods assurances none of them could land it from cold.

Fuji and Pace, I will arrange with you via PM as I think it would make an interesting human factors experiment. Al I am sorry but you don't get to question someones integrity and then come and play.

[englishal]

Darn, well that told me didn't it! Enjoy yourselves chaps, no WRESTING of control amongst yourselves! ;)

Anyway I didn't 'question' I was simply recalling various posts you made in the past, as I thought you were a CRE. Nothing wrong with being a CRE or CRI, I might do my CRI this summer, and a friend of mine is a CRI.

I would say though that if someone (I am not refering to you bose, so no need to feel the need to attack me to defend yourself....) constantly gave the impression in their online posts that they were a space shuttle pilot, who was head of the ICAO, when in fact they were no more than a PPL, then I would question their integrity, especially if they are giving 'advice' to new pilots. Bullsh*t sticks for a long time....and there are a lot of Walter Mittys in aviation.

Still never mind, Barcli can I come for a ride in your 'girly' Christen Eagle instead sometime? ....:ok:

[MIKECR]

Cheers for info. Didnt really know much about the dornier apart from a parachute club in the UK used them. I didnt realise either they had approval to carry out ratings on them. I thought these things were all east european registered. I have a friend who flew the turbolet 410 and ended up in deapest darkest Romania somewhere for the TR course. The dornier looks interesting though....and yes I imagine it would take suitable training to get the landing attitude/technique right.....as with any new aircraft type of course. Out of curiosity bose-x - how much do you charge for a rating on these things? Im assuming its all carried out in a/c too hence im thinking it may be quite expensive?? I dont imagine of course you have 'speculative' customers doing the rating just for the fun of it.

[Pace]

Fuji and Pace, I will arrange with you via PM as I think it would make an interesting human factors experiment. Al I am sorry but you don't get to question someones integrity and then come and play. And barcli, well...... We need to get red of that sexual tension first old boy...

Bose

I will sincerley look forward to meeting you and the Offer stands on the Citation as a gesture from me.
Somehow I have a feeling the Citation will be a lot easier ;)

Pace

[S-Works]

Anyway I didn't 'question' I was simply recalling various posts you made in the past, as I thought you were a CRE

Yes Al, I am a CRE, I am also an FE and if I pass next month I will be an FIC as well. I also hold a CRI (SE/ME) and an unrestricted FI. I hold a JAR FCL CPL/IR and both JAA & FAA Class 1 medicals (issued by Flying Dutch). I also hold an FAA CPL ASES,ASEL,AMEL, Instrument.

I am Head of Training at a UK FTO & TRTO. The UK CAA obviously felt I met the requirements of the post. If you really want to know more please PM me and I will send you a copy of the approval certificate.

Of course now I am going to be accused of willy waving by answering your question.

I dont imagine of course you have 'speculative' customers doing the rating just for the fun of it.

MIKECR, yes it is all done in the aircraft with a minimum in flight time of 10hrs followed by 10hrs of line training. It is a specialised aircraft and pilots come to us for training who are going to be out flying the aircraft. There is no reason why we would not train someone who was self funding but unless you have a job to go to it probably is a lot of money to spend.

Anyway the personal attacks aside this has made for an interesting discussion with some very polarised views. So I have contacted Pace and will be taking him in the Dornier and will do an article for GA Magazine on it as a human factors experiment.

[MIKECR]

Yeah cheers I thought that was probably the case. I have a friend who's keen on doing some parachute flying if he can get it. This sort of thing would be right up his street. You need any para drop pilots at your club?

[S-Works]

Yeah cheers I thought that was probably the case. I have a friend who's keen on doing some parachute flying if he can get it. This sort of thing would be right up his street. You need any para drop pilots at your club?

We are not a club. We provide aircraft and pilots to a number of different locations. If he has 500hrs tailwheel and 1000TT with a JAA CPL/IR then get him to send me a CV.

[englishal]

The Cessna Caravan may be a better bet for your friend. Speak to GiJoe.

Bose, no need to justify, I am well aware of your experience and I believe you.

[MIKECR]

Yeah i meant club for want of a better word as presumably its para/skydive clubs here in Blighty that the aircraft are flying. The chap I refer to isnt your typical hour builder airline aspirer.....he doesnt do autopilots! He's more into GA type stuff hence I asked about the rating and also the price. He has all the tickets CPL/MEIR etc and nearly 3000 hours...mostly in SET caravan and porter. Last seen in the arse end of Asia but last I heard from him he was wanting back to UK.

[S-Works]

Mike, If he has 500 tailwheel then get him to send his CV. Can't promise anything but we have another aircraft coming on line this year that will go out on contract. Cant be guaranteed to be in the UK.

We are an AOC operator and lease aircraft and pilots into various organisations not a parachute club.

The smaller clubs often run their own aircraft, but the bigger business clubs use external providers with high performance aircraft. It is all about cycle times and max altitude!

[MIKECR]

hmmm....interesting. Sounds just the sort of thing he'd be into. I'll pass it on next time he sticks his head above radar and decides to grace us with his presence.

Oh and apologies for steering the thread away chaps:O! Back to taking control in emergencies and MCC CRM and all that good stuff!

[Saab Dastard]

Dear oh dear, another thread bites the dust.

You guys have to learn to get along with each other! :)

SD