Could anyone become an ATCO?

[Crazy Voyager]

As I tend to post a lot in forums, a lot of people will by now know that I'm applying to NATS right now. In other words I'm not an ATCO myself, even though I hope I will one day become one.

I've read a lot of the discussions lately, and this thread is to continue a track from another thread:

Could anyone become a validated and working ATCO?
To see the post that made me start thinking, read: http://www.pprune.org/6177296-post22.html

Into this question I realise there are a lot of things to factor in.

In reality trainees are given a certain amount of time to validate (400 hours have been mentioned on PPrune), for this question I'm presuming there is infinate amount of time available (well more or less anyway).

To become an ATC today you have to go through a long screening process, but is it possible to take anyone off the street and teach them the work and skill of ATC? Provided offcourse they themself gave it their full effort.

I myself don't know, my guess is that many things can be taught (phraseology for example), but can everyone be taught to think and remain calm in an emergency situation for example?


And if ATC can't be taught? Does that mean it's genetic? If so then in theory one should be able to earn a fortune by replacing the screening process with a DNA-test, right?:p

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

ATC=Air traffic Control.
ATCO=Air Traffic Control Officer.

I'm sure you could pull people off the street and make them into controllers... just like you could make them 747 pilots, doctors, scientists, racing drivers, etc! Well, one could dream.

There are certain qualities which most ATCOs have which are not related to education or good health; it's just some strange quirk which allows them to do a job which others cannot. Even after extensive training I've seen controllers fail to make the grade; they simply could not hack the operational task. It's possible to teach someone how to behave when things go wrong, but would they actually manage? I used to impress upon trainees to make a concerted effort to speak slowly in an emergency. It gives one just a few more microseconds to think, re-assures the aircrew that they are dealing with a professional and should remove the need for "say again" from the pilot.

Good luck with your application. If you make it, listen to those training you because they know what they are doing.

[Crazy Voyager]

Abbreviations should be correct now, thanks :)

I guess the problem is that even if a person performs good in the training and even validates without any trouble. Is there really any gaurantee they wouldn't break if one day disaster strikes? I'm not sure if there is anyway to know, does anyone know how this is dealt with by the instructors?

I really hope I get the chance to take you up on that advice, I've been very fortunate and had the opportunity to try a session in a real tower simulator with an ATCO, I've also been to my local airport and had a chance to see how they work. It's been a great experience and if I'm really lucky and work for it, I hope I'll one day be able to join them as a traine, and more even more important, validated, ATCO.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Nobody can say how an individual will react in a given situation. However, controllers are subject to constant checking whilst at the College and by the competency examiners at their final units. If a controller was heading for some sort of breakdown it would probably become obvious so steps would be taken in good time to prevent a major problem arising. If things did suddenly go awry, the controller would be relieved from his position. I don't recall ever seeing that happen but I knew several who were getting on in years who asked to be posted away as they were finding things difficult.

[Tarq57]

There's no guarantee that even an experienced controller wouldn't "lose it" one day if disaster strikes, although it's probably unlikely.

But the ability to hold it all together in an emergency is not necessarily the characteristic that determines if one is going to be able to do the job or not. The job itself is fairly unique and provides all the testing required to provide that determination. Responding to emergencies is a very small part of that job.

Emergencies are something trained for and practiced that we think about and pretty much hope never happen.

Minor to significant emergency situations are not uncommon, over a lifetime, however I expect to go through my career without seeing a major crash.

[anotherthing]

It was my post in the other thread that prompted your question!

I used that quote in the context of what I was saying in my thread. Both the friend I was quoting and myself come from a military flying background before joining NATS. The military, like NATS, stipulates how many hours a course will last for. There is some leeway in this for students who are deemed to be 'almost there'. However after a certain amount of time you have to say enough is enough and stop training.

Civilain pilots who have enough money can spend as many hours as they want to obtain their licence... however a pilot will find it very difficult to gain employment if it is known that he had to take an inordinate amount of hours and re-sits to pass his tests.

If you had an infinite amount of time, it is feasible that you could train almost anyone to become an ATCO (the same is true of any profession). The exam to get your licence is held over one day so if their is nothing unusual going on, then you could pass it with thousands of hours under your belt.

However, the reason we have stipulated number of hours is because there has to be an element of being able to adapt to situations you have never seen before... as long as during those 400 hours you have seen the range of situations required under the Unit Training Plan (and dealt with them) then you will be put up for your Board (final exam).

The 400 hours have to consist of the right level of traffic - starting of with dealing with quiet traffic, and getting busier as you progress. When a daily report is written on you, the level of traffic is noted - you will not be allowed to validate if you have not worked busy traffic (relative to your unit), even if you have done 400 hours.

Some units require less than 400 hours, certain sectors at LACCC allow 500 hours as the normal. During those hours you will be given daily reports and then every 50 odd hours a level check which you have to pass before progressing onto the next 50 hours.

The question 'could anyone become an ATCO if you gave them infinite hours' is realy a moot one, as infinite never ends, so you would never know!!

There are limits to amount of hours allowed for very good reasons.

[Crazy Voyager]

Indeed your post made me think anotherthing, because you made a very good point. I have never before considered the fact that people switching units can have 400 hours logged already, quite few hours!

When I say emergencies I do not mainly think of crashes anymore. Even though they occur, when I'm asked what I consider to be the worst possible scenario I usually answer: "a complete radio failure during peak hour". Sure crashes are horrific, but from my outside perspective the thought of a complete radar failure is a lot worse. But maybe that's a view not shared by active ATCOs?

But it seems we're going to the conclusion that given enough time anyone (or almost anyone) could be trained as an ATCO, just as they could be trained to become doctors, engineers or any other occupation.

Maybe I put to much emphasis on the fact that controllers must keep calm in an emergency, after all (as has been said in this thread), the majority of the work involves no emergencies.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Radio and radar failures at an ATC unit are fairly uncommon, although I did experience several of each! I don't know what equipment is available now, but standby R/T was always provided where I worked. However, if the radar goes off you can get busy.

Comms failure on an aircraft presents few problems to a radar unit - just a matter of sitting and watching it and provide separation.

Emergencies - or what are referred to as such - happen more often that you might think. The most common are medical emergencies when a passenger or crew member requires urgent medical assistance and aircraft occasionally experience technical problems which require priority landings, but none present problems for a trained controller.

[BAND4ALL]

Could anyone become an ATCO?..............NO :ok:

[arearadar]

Well, as a retired training office at LATCC, one of my favourite comments was `Give me a (much derided) spotter rather than a graduate any day, and I`ll make a controller of him/her. At least a spotter knew what an aeroplane was and possibly what it was capable of !

Dave

[arearadar]

I`ve experienced both in another life. R/T....30 mins standby power. Radar...nothing !

Sad thing is that there a virtually no procedural controllers left. A bit worrying I think.

Dave

[Crazy Voyager]

Come on Band4all, motivate ;)

I live in a town with quite a busy ambulance helicopter (just a few hours ago it made my house vibrate as it flew over at 1500 feet, great sound in that engine:cool:). So with my scanner I've sometimes heard it make a slight mess off the sequence when it announces it needs to cross the controlzone with HOSP status, not sure if that goes into the "emergency"-category but it's still quite intresting to listen to!

I thought everyone started off with procedural control still? After all it is the foundation of ATC, or is the training process so streamlined now that procedural control is only taught to the ones being posted to non-radar units?

[On the beach]

Sad thing is that there are virtually no procedural controllers left. A bit worrying I think.

Absolutely, especially when you turn up for a very busy shift at an airport with 4 radar heads only to find the radar room flooded and you are the only guy who knows what procedural is! :eek:

[chevvron]

Area radar: totally agree with you about grads(Talkdownman and HD have also said so in the past). They might be OK at knowing 'the book', but when it comes to something that's not in it, using their own initiative, they're lost.

[PeltonLevel]

Could anyone become an ATCO?
I guess the answer is that anyone can try.
I never believed that I had the necessary aptitudes (too easily distracted) and the type of work never really appealed so I never applied.
Over 40 years I worked with a number of people who had succeeded, a number who had succeeded but weren't very good and a smaller number who had failed and I was never able to see what made a successful controller.
(Many years ago I applied for a job with IBM and I had to take one of their aptitude tests. I asked the interviewer whether these tests were any good at determining who might succeed. He replied that they weren't very good at predicting success, but they were significantly better at predicting failure!)
I hope that ANSP recruiters have tests which can eliminate (and disappoint) candidates whose success is unlikely before the process has been too expensive for both parties.

[PhiltheReaper]

Area radar: totally agree with you about grads(Talkdownman and HD have also said so in the past). They might be OK at knowing 'the book', but when it comes to something that's not in it, using their own initiative, they're lost.

As a finalist at Uni, with a current application to NATS, I can't help but feel a little concerned, as this sentiment has been raised several times that I've noticed.

It leads me to ask the question: "Do you feel that Graduate candidates, really, fail to laterally think at a higher percentage than non-graduates? Or is it more a case of: "Graduates think they know it all, but actually they are just the same as the rest of us.".

I personally hope for the second one, as in my case I'm well aware that a Music Degree isn't setting me up for ATCO training, and that indeed, passing the selection based on aptitude, followed by hard work and learning at CATC is the only way I can succeed, and it's exactly the same way as everyone else succeeds with NATS training!

I am just hoping that I'm not embarking on a journey where:
1. Being a graduate will be considered to disadvantage me, and
2. I will be discriminated against by collogues, both senior and peers, for holding a degree - I'm just a guy, just like anybody else, and I'd like to be viewed that way, on my merits as a guy, and not on how much student debt I've chosen to get into!

Note quite a rant, but I'm very anxious to begin to understand the basis of this argument.

Phil

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Phil.. You absolutely will not be discriminated against. I knew some very good ATCOs who had several degrees. However, IMHO, like other experienced controllers have suggested, graduates do not necessarily make good ATCOs otherwise a degree would be a requirement for candidates. Educational qualifications are not the be-all-and-end-all. Some have lots; others don't. I have 2 GCE O levels but I worked alongside people with 8 O levels, 4 A levels, various degrees and other qualifications. All of us were better than some, not as good as others doing the same job. But we all had the same quirk for doing the job.

Some people can do ATC whilst others cannot and I've yet to be convinced of any test which claims to pick out those who will succeed!

[Gonzo]

Phil, once you get accepted, in the politest possible way, nodoby cares what you did before.

[2 sheds]

Gonzo, you just beat me to it - and nobody cares!

Phil - with most intakes, I would guess that probably a majority have a degree, usually in a subject totally irrelevant to the learning of ATC skills. You can take that as a matter of fact - or a comment on the education system, as you wish!

2 s

[le Pingouin]

I think it just says that taking a degree is more common than in the past - if you have the smarts for ATC you likely have the smarts to do a degree.

My take on it is for ATC you need to be a good generalist - fairly good at lots of things, not just excellent at one or two. Probably why the tests have trouble - spotting strength focussed in one direction is comparatively easy. Your average corporate psychopath is an easy pick.

Maybe explains why they end up in ATC - they don't fit into a standard employee shaped box.

[Bern Oulli]

I've been in ATC now for 44 years now, and, one way or another, helping to train aspiring young ATCO trainees for some time. I still don't know what makes an ATCO. If I did I would bottle it and make a fortune. I can sometimes tell quite early on in the training who will not/should not become an ATCO, but I have been wrong sometimes. I have a theory that those who have qualifications in the arts as opposed to the sciences are more likely to become good controllers, but that may be total hogwash. I also have theory that a higher percentage of ATC graduates are left-handed. Make of that what you will.

In short, the only predictor is the assessment process, the system cannot yet tell you your fortune.

[On the beach]

I also have theory that a higher percentage of ATC graduates are left-handed.

Certainly my experience of working in several en-route environments would support that theory. In fact in one straw poll of the 25 ATCOs on duty 13 were left handed and with that result we then had the positions set up for left handers much to the chagrin of the righties.

It is certainly something that I checked with all my trainees over the years. There do seem to be a bigger proportion of lefties in ATC than the average would suggest, but only on the area side of ATC. Approach controllers are mainly all right-handed and I never noticed any bias in tower controllers.

Also graduates with science-oriented degrees, where there are "black and white" solutions to problems, seemed less able to cope with "out of the ordinary" scenarios.

Mind you, I could be a tad biased, as I'm left-handed and not a science graduate. Wasn't too shabby at controlling either, but that's probably debatable. :ok:<- he's a leftie!

On the beach

[2 sheds]

http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif<- he's a leftie!

He's just doing something more important with his right hand!

2 s

[PhiltheReaper]

Interesting to hear... I suppose I ought to be glad that my degree is an Arts degree and that I'm a lefty then! :P

Phil

[elandel]

Approach controllers are mainly all right-handed

Not so - I once found myself completely surrounded a few years ago on Heathrow Approach by left handers! I reckon there is about a 50-50 mix. This is interesting as the furniture is designed for right handers and I often see lefties trying to write on strips etc.

[Brian 48nav]

If I could then anyone could!

Mind you I am left-handed as were quite a few others at LL,particularly on C Watch.

Phil,

Good to see you found something positive!

A lot of prejudice from my generation against graduates was nothing to do with them as individuals but because our employers,particularly in my first career as an air force nav, seemed to think that was the way to go!

Good luck

PS ATCO son has a degree , pah!

[agent007]

Its amazing how the foot switch makes life easier for us as lefties. The number of ATC desks that are right hand orientated. Makes a foot switch a bit of a necessity:ugh:

[Glamdring]

write on strips

What is this voodoo that you speak of?

[On the beach]

What is this voodoo that you speak of?

It's something to do with spelling, grammar and punctuation. They had to dumb it down because very few ATCOs understand how to do it these days, except lefties, of course! :E

[Northerner]

Well I've been watching this thread with interest.

Like Bern Oulli I have noticed that the proportion of lefties in air traffic is considerably greater than it is normally, although that is purely observation from the day I was at the college until now and not scientific in any way!
I seem to recall from years ago that artistic stuff meant that one particular side of your brain was developed more, so whether that has any bearing on it I'm not sure...

I'm a science graduate, so it's not impossible, but as others have said no-one really cares what you did before. Being a graduate may (and I only say may) suggest that you have the ability to study and therefore cope with the bookwork side of it, but you still need to be able to do the actual job, not something you can do just by reading a book. Having said that, my brain loves logic, and that was a big part of my love of things mathematical; air traffic is a big logic puzzle to me and I relish it.

If I had a pound for all the times I have spent over the years debating with people about having a prior aviaition background and knowledge I'd be rich enough to not work as an ATCO! IMHO there is no requirement to have this prior to entering the job, but it's a darn good idea to gain at least some knowledge if you don't have any! I joined air traffic without much idea about planes at all, but was lucky enough to have been pointed in the air traffic direction by someone who thought I would like it, enjoy it and be good at it. My interest in and love of aviation was sparked by the job rather than the other way round. If some had their way I would never have been in the job, and I've been valid for over 11 years now. (yes I know, still a youngster to many!)

I think one of the most important elements to whether or not people will be successful as a controller is in their strength of character. You need to be able to make decisions and stick to them, but not be stubborn if you need to change them. You need to be able to cope with the character of others too; some personal self confidence is definitely vital.

Then again, in my opinion, the way someone is trained and the attitude, skills and motivation of the trainers has a huge effect on whether they suceed or not. I've been lucky enough to have some very good instructors (Bern Oulli for 1 :) ) who put time and effort into their training and really cared about how people did. I took that with me and when I began to train people I always looked for how I could help people to get there. Sadly not everyone can make it, but I feel we do lose some who could if we tried a different approach or gave them better quality of training.

I don't believe just anyone could be a controller; I do think that some would never get it. If I think through my friends and relatives I definitely know there are one or two who could not. (for instance my brother is dyslexic, and would struggle with callsigns!)

I'm sure that a few years ago they said women would never be controllers; now look at us:E:E

I think the biggest thing is that we shouldn't be prejudice against anyone who passes the initial tests which suggest they may have an apptitude. I'm sure that if someone had found the perfect formula for an ATCO they'd have been using it by now...

Cheers,
Northerner

PS I'm hoping my punctuation and grammer are up to standard; but I feel for the kids these days who aren't taught properly - it's not their fault that they don't have the education!

"Keep smiling, it makes people wonder what you're up to..."

[BrATCO]

To become a controller, you'll need at least :

- A right and a left hand, two eyes, two ears, one mouth and benefit the ability to use each at the same time independantly one of each-other. Not to mention one foot, for the switch...
- reflexes and speed of a table-tennis player,
- team-spirit of a volley-ball player,
- cool blood of a football (NFL) quatterback (stay precise and effective even though you're going to be sacked in a few seconds),
- during your training, cope day after day, after day with situations that would lead the average human to immediately commit suicide,
- be able to focus as a curling thrower,
- think as a chess player : always 5 moves forward,
- learn as much rules as a lawyer, and be able to apply them with no time to check if you're right or wrong,
- be self-confident as a car seller,
- recheck everything twice (just to be sure) without losing speed,
- cope with lonelyness, as social life is impossible, due to rosters,
- If ever you keep any "normal" (meaning non-ATCO) friends, be able as a politician to change subject when they tell you : "I read in the papers that you're lazy and overpaid".

And I was about to forget the most important : a total lack of wisdom.
Anyone with a bit of brain and all these skills would choose another job. :)

Good luck !

PS :
Don't worry if you think you don't have the skills yet. That's normal : you're still human . You'll get them during the training.

[Roffa]

BrATCO,

I trust the above is meant tongue in cheek, especially this...

- during your training, cope day after day, after day with situations that would lead the average human to immediately commit suicide,

Tosh!

[BrATCO]

Of course, even though controllers, we're still human !

As for training conditions, I was trained the ancient way.
Youngsters couldn't survive this anymore. :}


Edited to add :
As I don't want to scare anyone (because there's no reason to be scared), I confirm that this was "tongue in cheeck" !

The way I was trained was a bit hard, but that was long ago and only few of my instructors were real hard-holes.
Their motto was : "If you don't resist the way I treat you , you will never be able to resist the traffic !".
Maybe they were right : flow management was not as efficient as it is now.
And I reckon they didn't even know the meaning of "Human Factors" or "Team Ressource Management". OJTI rating didn't exist then.

Training methods have changed now. A lot !