Could anyone become an ATCO?
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Could anyone become an ATCO?
As I tend to post a lot in forums, a lot of people will by now know that I'm applying to NATS right now. In other words I'm not an ATCO myself, even though I hope I will one day become one.
I've read a lot of the discussions lately, and this thread is to continue a track from another thread:
Could anyone become a validated and working ATCO?
To see the post that made me start thinking, read: http://www.pprune.org/6177296-post22.html
Into this question I realise there are a lot of things to factor in.
In reality trainees are given a certain amount of time to validate (400 hours have been mentioned on PPrune), for this question I'm presuming there is infinate amount of time available (well more or less anyway).
To become an ATC today you have to go through a long screening process, but is it possible to take anyone off the street and teach them the work and skill of ATC? Provided offcourse they themself gave it their full effort.
I myself don't know, my guess is that many things can be taught (phraseology for example), but can everyone be taught to think and remain calm in an emergency situation for example?
And if ATC can't be taught? Does that mean it's genetic? If so then in theory one should be able to earn a fortune by replacing the screening process with a DNA-test, right?
I've read a lot of the discussions lately, and this thread is to continue a track from another thread:
Could anyone become a validated and working ATCO?
To see the post that made me start thinking, read: http://www.pprune.org/6177296-post22.html
Into this question I realise there are a lot of things to factor in.
In reality trainees are given a certain amount of time to validate (400 hours have been mentioned on PPrune), for this question I'm presuming there is infinate amount of time available (well more or less anyway).
To become an ATC today you have to go through a long screening process, but is it possible to take anyone off the street and teach them the work and skill of ATC? Provided offcourse they themself gave it their full effort.
I myself don't know, my guess is that many things can be taught (phraseology for example), but can everyone be taught to think and remain calm in an emergency situation for example?
And if ATC can't be taught? Does that mean it's genetic? If so then in theory one should be able to earn a fortune by replacing the screening process with a DNA-test, right?
Last edited by Crazy Voyager; 13th Jan 2011 at 17:45.
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ATC=Air traffic Control.
ATCO=Air Traffic Control Officer.
I'm sure you could pull people off the street and make them into controllers... just like you could make them 747 pilots, doctors, scientists, racing drivers, etc! Well, one could dream.
There are certain qualities which most ATCOs have which are not related to education or good health; it's just some strange quirk which allows them to do a job which others cannot. Even after extensive training I've seen controllers fail to make the grade; they simply could not hack the operational task. It's possible to teach someone how to behave when things go wrong, but would they actually manage? I used to impress upon trainees to make a concerted effort to speak slowly in an emergency. It gives one just a few more microseconds to think, re-assures the aircrew that they are dealing with a professional and should remove the need for "say again" from the pilot.
Good luck with your application. If you make it, listen to those training you because they know what they are doing.
ATCO=Air Traffic Control Officer.
I'm sure you could pull people off the street and make them into controllers... just like you could make them 747 pilots, doctors, scientists, racing drivers, etc! Well, one could dream.
There are certain qualities which most ATCOs have which are not related to education or good health; it's just some strange quirk which allows them to do a job which others cannot. Even after extensive training I've seen controllers fail to make the grade; they simply could not hack the operational task. It's possible to teach someone how to behave when things go wrong, but would they actually manage? I used to impress upon trainees to make a concerted effort to speak slowly in an emergency. It gives one just a few more microseconds to think, re-assures the aircrew that they are dealing with a professional and should remove the need for "say again" from the pilot.
Good luck with your application. If you make it, listen to those training you because they know what they are doing.
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Abbreviations should be correct now, thanks 
I guess the problem is that even if a person performs good in the training and even validates without any trouble. Is there really any gaurantee they wouldn't break if one day disaster strikes? I'm not sure if there is anyway to know, does anyone know how this is dealt with by the instructors?
I really hope I get the chance to take you up on that advice, I've been very fortunate and had the opportunity to try a session in a real tower simulator with an ATCO, I've also been to my local airport and had a chance to see how they work. It's been a great experience and if I'm really lucky and work for it, I hope I'll one day be able to join them as a traine, and more even more important, validated, ATCO.
I guess the problem is that even if a person performs good in the training and even validates without any trouble. Is there really any gaurantee they wouldn't break if one day disaster strikes? I'm not sure if there is anyway to know, does anyone know how this is dealt with by the instructors?
I really hope I get the chance to take you up on that advice, I've been very fortunate and had the opportunity to try a session in a real tower simulator with an ATCO, I've also been to my local airport and had a chance to see how they work. It's been a great experience and if I'm really lucky and work for it, I hope I'll one day be able to join them as a traine, and more even more important, validated, ATCO.
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Nobody can say how an individual will react in a given situation. However, controllers are subject to constant checking whilst at the College and by the competency examiners at their final units. If a controller was heading for some sort of breakdown it would probably become obvious so steps would be taken in good time to prevent a major problem arising. If things did suddenly go awry, the controller would be relieved from his position. I don't recall ever seeing that happen but I knew several who were getting on in years who asked to be posted away as they were finding things difficult.
There's no guarantee that even an experienced controller wouldn't "lose it" one day if disaster strikes, although it's probably unlikely.
But the ability to hold it all together in an emergency is not necessarily the characteristic that determines if one is going to be able to do the job or not. The job itself is fairly unique and provides all the testing required to provide that determination. Responding to emergencies is a very small part of that job.
Emergencies are something trained for and practiced that we think about and pretty much hope never happen.
Minor to significant emergency situations are not uncommon, over a lifetime, however I expect to go through my career without seeing a major crash.
But the ability to hold it all together in an emergency is not necessarily the characteristic that determines if one is going to be able to do the job or not. The job itself is fairly unique and provides all the testing required to provide that determination. Responding to emergencies is a very small part of that job.
Emergencies are something trained for and practiced that we think about and pretty much hope never happen.
Minor to significant emergency situations are not uncommon, over a lifetime, however I expect to go through my career without seeing a major crash.
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It was my post in the other thread that prompted your question!
I used that quote in the context of what I was saying in my thread. Both the friend I was quoting and myself come from a military flying background before joining NATS. The military, like NATS, stipulates how many hours a course will last for. There is some leeway in this for students who are deemed to be 'almost there'. However after a certain amount of time you have to say enough is enough and stop training.
Civilain pilots who have enough money can spend as many hours as they want to obtain their licence... however a pilot will find it very difficult to gain employment if it is known that he had to take an inordinate amount of hours and re-sits to pass his tests.
If you had an infinite amount of time, it is feasible that you could train almost anyone to become an ATCO (the same is true of any profession). The exam to get your licence is held over one day so if their is nothing unusual going on, then you could pass it with thousands of hours under your belt.
However, the reason we have stipulated number of hours is because there has to be an element of being able to adapt to situations you have never seen before... as long as during those 400 hours you have seen the range of situations required under the Unit Training Plan (and dealt with them) then you will be put up for your Board (final exam).
The 400 hours have to consist of the right level of traffic - starting of with dealing with quiet traffic, and getting busier as you progress. When a daily report is written on you, the level of traffic is noted - you will not be allowed to validate if you have not worked busy traffic (relative to your unit), even if you have done 400 hours.
Some units require less than 400 hours, certain sectors at LACCC allow 500 hours as the normal. During those hours you will be given daily reports and then every 50 odd hours a level check which you have to pass before progressing onto the next 50 hours.
The question 'could anyone become an ATCO if you gave them infinite hours' is realy a moot one, as infinite never ends, so you would never know!!
There are limits to amount of hours allowed for very good reasons.
I used that quote in the context of what I was saying in my thread. Both the friend I was quoting and myself come from a military flying background before joining NATS. The military, like NATS, stipulates how many hours a course will last for. There is some leeway in this for students who are deemed to be 'almost there'. However after a certain amount of time you have to say enough is enough and stop training.
Civilain pilots who have enough money can spend as many hours as they want to obtain their licence... however a pilot will find it very difficult to gain employment if it is known that he had to take an inordinate amount of hours and re-sits to pass his tests.
If you had an infinite amount of time, it is feasible that you could train almost anyone to become an ATCO (the same is true of any profession). The exam to get your licence is held over one day so if their is nothing unusual going on, then you could pass it with thousands of hours under your belt.
However, the reason we have stipulated number of hours is because there has to be an element of being able to adapt to situations you have never seen before... as long as during those 400 hours you have seen the range of situations required under the Unit Training Plan (and dealt with them) then you will be put up for your Board (final exam).
The 400 hours have to consist of the right level of traffic - starting of with dealing with quiet traffic, and getting busier as you progress. When a daily report is written on you, the level of traffic is noted - you will not be allowed to validate if you have not worked busy traffic (relative to your unit), even if you have done 400 hours.
Some units require less than 400 hours, certain sectors at LACCC allow 500 hours as the normal. During those hours you will be given daily reports and then every 50 odd hours a level check which you have to pass before progressing onto the next 50 hours.
The question 'could anyone become an ATCO if you gave them infinite hours' is realy a moot one, as infinite never ends, so you would never know!!
There are limits to amount of hours allowed for very good reasons.
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Indeed your post made me think anotherthing, because you made a very good point. I have never before considered the fact that people switching units can have 400 hours logged already, quite few hours!
When I say emergencies I do not mainly think of crashes anymore. Even though they occur, when I'm asked what I consider to be the worst possible scenario I usually answer: "a complete radio failure during peak hour". Sure crashes are horrific, but from my outside perspective the thought of a complete radar failure is a lot worse. But maybe that's a view not shared by active ATCOs?
But it seems we're going to the conclusion that given enough time anyone (or almost anyone) could be trained as an ATCO, just as they could be trained to become doctors, engineers or any other occupation.
Maybe I put to much emphasis on the fact that controllers must keep calm in an emergency, after all (as has been said in this thread), the majority of the work involves no emergencies.
When I say emergencies I do not mainly think of crashes anymore. Even though they occur, when I'm asked what I consider to be the worst possible scenario I usually answer: "a complete radio failure during peak hour". Sure crashes are horrific, but from my outside perspective the thought of a complete radar failure is a lot worse. But maybe that's a view not shared by active ATCOs?
But it seems we're going to the conclusion that given enough time anyone (or almost anyone) could be trained as an ATCO, just as they could be trained to become doctors, engineers or any other occupation.
Maybe I put to much emphasis on the fact that controllers must keep calm in an emergency, after all (as has been said in this thread), the majority of the work involves no emergencies.
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Radio and radar failures at an ATC unit are fairly uncommon, although I did experience several of each! I don't know what equipment is available now, but standby R/T was always provided where I worked. However, if the radar goes off you can get busy.
Comms failure on an aircraft presents few problems to a radar unit - just a matter of sitting and watching it and provide separation.
Emergencies - or what are referred to as such - happen more often that you might think. The most common are medical emergencies when a passenger or crew member requires urgent medical assistance and aircraft occasionally experience technical problems which require priority landings, but none present problems for a trained controller.
Comms failure on an aircraft presents few problems to a radar unit - just a matter of sitting and watching it and provide separation.
Emergencies - or what are referred to as such - happen more often that you might think. The most common are medical emergencies when a passenger or crew member requires urgent medical assistance and aircraft occasionally experience technical problems which require priority landings, but none present problems for a trained controller.
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ATCO from the street
Well, as a retired training office at LATCC, one of my favourite comments was `Give me a (much derided) spotter rather than a graduate any day, and I`ll make a controller of him/her. At least a spotter knew what an aeroplane was and possibly what it was capable of !
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RT/Radar Failure
I`ve experienced both in another life. R/T....30 mins standby power. Radar...nothing !
Sad thing is that there a virtually no procedural controllers left. A bit worrying I think.
Dave
Sad thing is that there a virtually no procedural controllers left. A bit worrying I think.
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Come on Band4all, motivate 
I live in a town with quite a busy ambulance helicopter (just a few hours ago it made my house vibrate as it flew over at 1500 feet, great sound in that engine
). So with my scanner I've sometimes heard it make a slight mess off the sequence when it announces it needs to cross the controlzone with HOSP status, not sure if that goes into the "emergency"-category but it's still quite intresting to listen to!
I thought everyone started off with procedural control still? After all it is the foundation of ATC, or is the training process so streamlined now that procedural control is only taught to the ones being posted to non-radar units?
I live in a town with quite a busy ambulance helicopter (just a few hours ago it made my house vibrate as it flew over at 1500 feet, great sound in that engine
). So with my scanner I've sometimes heard it make a slight mess off the sequence when it announces it needs to cross the controlzone with HOSP status, not sure if that goes into the "emergency"-category but it's still quite intresting to listen to! I thought everyone started off with procedural control still? After all it is the foundation of ATC, or is the training process so streamlined now that procedural control is only taught to the ones being posted to non-radar units?
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Sad thing is that there are virtually no procedural controllers left. A bit worrying I think.
Area radar: totally agree with you about grads(Talkdownman and HD have also said so in the past). They might be OK at knowing 'the book', but when it comes to something that's not in it, using their own initiative, they're lost.
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Could anyone become an ATCO?
I guess the answer is that anyone can try.
I never believed that I had the necessary aptitudes (too easily distracted) and the type of work never really appealed so I never applied.
Over 40 years I worked with a number of people who had succeeded, a number who had succeeded but weren't very good and a smaller number who had failed and I was never able to see what made a successful controller.
(Many years ago I applied for a job with IBM and I had to take one of their aptitude tests. I asked the interviewer whether these tests were any good at determining who might succeed. He replied that they weren't very good at predicting success, but they were significantly better at predicting failure!)
I hope that ANSP recruiters have tests which can eliminate (and disappoint) candidates whose success is unlikely before the process has been too expensive for both parties.
I guess the answer is that anyone can try.
I never believed that I had the necessary aptitudes (too easily distracted) and the type of work never really appealed so I never applied.
Over 40 years I worked with a number of people who had succeeded, a number who had succeeded but weren't very good and a smaller number who had failed and I was never able to see what made a successful controller.
(Many years ago I applied for a job with IBM and I had to take one of their aptitude tests. I asked the interviewer whether these tests were any good at determining who might succeed. He replied that they weren't very good at predicting success, but they were significantly better at predicting failure!)
I hope that ANSP recruiters have tests which can eliminate (and disappoint) candidates whose success is unlikely before the process has been too expensive for both parties.
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Graduates not necessarily good Controllers
Area radar: totally agree with you about grads(Talkdownman and HD have also said so in the past). They might be OK at knowing 'the book', but when it comes to something that's not in it, using their own initiative, they're lost.
It leads me to ask the question: "Do you feel that Graduate candidates, really, fail to laterally think at a higher percentage than non-graduates? Or is it more a case of: "Graduates think they know it all, but actually they are just the same as the rest of us.".
I personally hope for the second one, as in my case I'm well aware that a Music Degree isn't setting me up for ATCO training, and that indeed, passing the selection based on aptitude, followed by hard work and learning at CATC is the only way I can succeed, and it's exactly the same way as everyone else succeeds with NATS training!
I am just hoping that I'm not embarking on a journey where:
1. Being a graduate will be considered to disadvantage me, and
2. I will be discriminated against by collogues, both senior and peers, for holding a degree - I'm just a guy, just like anybody else, and I'd like to be viewed that way, on my merits as a guy, and not on how much student debt I've chosen to get into!
Note quite a rant, but I'm very anxious to begin to understand the basis of this argument.
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Phil.. You absolutely will not be discriminated against. I knew some very good ATCOs who had several degrees. However, IMHO, like other experienced controllers have suggested, graduates do not necessarily make good ATCOs otherwise a degree would be a requirement for candidates. Educational qualifications are not the be-all-and-end-all. Some have lots; others don't. I have 2 GCE O levels but I worked alongside people with 8 O levels, 4 A levels, various degrees and other qualifications. All of us were better than some, not as good as others doing the same job. But we all had the same quirk for doing the job.
Some people can do ATC whilst others cannot and I've yet to be convinced of any test which claims to pick out those who will succeed!
Some people can do ATC whilst others cannot and I've yet to be convinced of any test which claims to pick out those who will succeed!
Gonzo, you just beat me to it - and nobody cares!
Phil - with most intakes, I would guess that probably a majority have a degree, usually in a subject totally irrelevant to the learning of ATC skills. You can take that as a matter of fact - or a comment on the education system, as you wish!
2 s
Phil - with most intakes, I would guess that probably a majority have a degree, usually in a subject totally irrelevant to the learning of ATC skills. You can take that as a matter of fact - or a comment on the education system, as you wish!
2 s
I think it just says that taking a degree is more common than in the past - if you have the smarts for ATC you likely have the smarts to do a degree.
My take on it is for ATC you need to be a good generalist - fairly good at lots of things, not just excellent at one or two. Probably why the tests have trouble - spotting strength focussed in one direction is comparatively easy. Your average corporate psychopath is an easy pick.
Maybe explains why they end up in ATC - they don't fit into a standard employee shaped box.
My take on it is for ATC you need to be a good generalist - fairly good at lots of things, not just excellent at one or two. Probably why the tests have trouble - spotting strength focussed in one direction is comparatively easy. Your average corporate psychopath is an easy pick.
Maybe explains why they end up in ATC - they don't fit into a standard employee shaped box.