Thinking of becoming an ATCO

[Electric-chick]

Hi all, I have for the last 15 years worked in aviation, avionic maintenance fixed wing and rotary, Tornado simulators, technical author etc mostly MoD contracts, I am pondering to restart my career as an ATCO as my husband is soon to lose his job with BAE on the Harriar (Thanks Mr Cameron) and we are thinking of swapping roles, me going back out to work and dear hubby staying at home to look after our son. I have looked at NATS which offers a salary whilst training, done the maths and we can survive on the money for the 11 month training, but my concern is, does the pay after that, at a unit which will undoubtadly be Prestwick or Swanwick, of 15K have to pay for accomadation and travelling as well or do we get a living allowance. At the moment 15k would only be suffiecient for working close to home as I cannot afford both my mortage and rent to live elsewhere. The long term prospects are excellent but the short term costs have to work out. Also do I understand correctly we do not get fully quallified and earning good salaries until after two years after finishing the college course ie 3 years in total? At 38 years old, although I come from a good aviation background and have a good 20 years plus emplyment still ahead of me, am I deluding myself with this change of career? The alternative is a dead end job at the local Tesco's!!! Thanks in advance for any advice.
Catherine

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Catherine. IMHO. the most significant factor against you is your age. 38 is a little late to be starting in ATC, although you can expect a few people to say they did so! However, just keep it in mind. You might well be able to cope at a less busy unit, but the problem is to get into the profession to start with. Not only do you need certain qualifications, and avionics maintenance isn't really much to do with ATC, but you also need to pass a stringent medical. If you have any health problems, especially with eyes, ears and heart, you should speak to the Medical Branch at Gatwick. NATS is undoubtedly the best route into the job as other options usually cost money. One possibility would be an ATC Assistant position at a non-NATS airfield, but pay would not be too good. However, such employers do tend to get their ATCOs from their ATCAs and they would sponsor you for training.

I don't know the current rules but once you get posted to your permanent NATS station I don't think you could claim any allowances. After the College courses you then have to train at a unit, which can take a year and nobody will known until you start that training whether you will eventually qualify. However, if you do then the pay and conditions are excellent.

Best of luck and don't hesitate to ask any questions on here...

[Miroku]

How about looking at becoming a FISO instead.................

Just a thought and at least it beats Tesco.

[ADIS5000]

Hi,

I think you'll find that on graduating from the College if you go to Swanwick or Prestwick you'll be paid £18.5K pa. (The £15K pa is for the lower paid units.) There are no extra allowances. Some NATS trainees qualify for income support, so it would be worth checking with the DSS. Once you validate (ie become qualified on your first sector) then you'll get £32.8K at Swanwick or Prestwick (possibly plus £5K pa shift allowance, I'm not sure as I work at an airport). You will only get onto the 'big bucks' pay scale after you've been with the Company for 3 years. Be aware that some people take the full 3 years just to validate. Financially it can be tight initially, but it's a great job with good prospects and excellent remuneration. Hope this is of some use.

Regards, ADIS

[eastern wiseguy]

You might well be able to cope at a less busy unit

Go on HD ...name names..

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Fred Bloggs... Beryl Quock... Harold Prot... Count Jim Moriarty..

Anything else you want? Fact is that just because an ATCO can't validate at a busy unit doesn't mean they are finished, far from it. If someone I was training didn't make it, I would impress upon them that it wasn't the end of the road - far from it. Some I saw fail went on to be excellent controllers elsewhere and, later, become Watch Managers.

[eastern wiseguy]

HD That's not the point.You have stated that You might well be able to cope at a less busy unit


That is patronising in the extreme.



It is nice to know that she will be able to get by at one of NATS quiet units.

THOSE were the names I was asking you for.I am sure that my fellow ATCO's around the country would love to know which category you believe they fit in to.

[Electric-chick]

Hi all, thank you all for you comments and advice, some more helpful than others. I was trying to get across with my background that I believe I have the aptutude to go to NATS and do the course as I have a good knowlege of aircraft landing systems and intruments as I have programmed flight simulaters with runway and approach information and have co-organised, installed and tested a huge anti collision installation for the RAF. More to avionic maintenance than some people think! Thanks for the info on pay upon graduation,much better than I thought. I am unsure though if I can risk a year on a course only to be posted somewhere where I cannot afford to live as I have a house and husband and young son in Lincolnshire, our house is not worth very much in this part of the world.
Yes, not sure of how or why I would benifit from a nice quiet unit, I did four years in the Army, never one for a quiet life me hense wanting a career change at the old age of 38 lol.
I need to have a long think, It is certainly something I wish to do (turned it down with the RAF many years ago). As my age reflects I am not free and single (no complaints though) and have to consider all factors.
Thanks to you all.
Catherine

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Eastern wiseguy. There was nothing patronising at all about my statement. The lady says she is 38 years old, so she is older than what I might suggest is the "preferred" age to start ATC training from scratch. Nothing "patronising", just a simple fact.

[PhiltheReaper]

she is older than what I might suggest is the "preferred" age to start ATC training from scratch. Nothing "patronising", just a simple fact.

Is that not an opinion?

Also, perhaps I am being naive etc. but, by the "quieter" airports mentioned by HD, would those not be those categorised by NATS as being in a lower band? I thought those were at least nominally worked out by "business" of the aerodrome?

Phil

[eastern wiseguy]

HD ....You are patronising other units.

I believe that at 38 she will have a heck of a job ahead of her irrespective of which unit she would be posted to.

Good luck to her. I wouldn't like to be in her shoes.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<Is that not an opinion?>>

It certainly is, derived from 30+ years of training controllers at home and abroad in 5 different ATC disciplines at both busy and quiet units.

[Vercingetorix]

eastern wiseguy

HD is just stating the facts and not being patronising.

Age 38 is, in itself, no barrier to obtaining an ATC licence but I would ask you to supply the forum with details of any ATCO who has done a first validation at terminal control at such age.
The number of cadets who failed to validate at LATCC and were then shipped out to, and then finally validate at, less busy units would fill a fair sized book.

Cheers:ok:

P.S. ex CAA, NATS and TC (as it then was)

[Over+Out]

I have many years of experience in TC. We have had several older controllers from other units come to TC and have not validated. At 38 it will be an up hill struggle to validate, perhaps anywhere.
I very much agree with the comments of HD.

[Electric-chick]

Hi all, I am begining to get the impression that at 38 my brain cells start to decay and I not as intellegent as I was when younger. As I am recently finishing a physics degree with the OU I find I am much wiser and level headed than I was at 20. However, it has highlighted that there is a lot of prejudice out there towards of people my age and after a difficult decision(not based on my age I might add) that I am going to withdraw my application to NATS as I really cannot afford to relocate to the areas they have on offer. House prices in these areas vastly outweigh the house I own and cannot afford to rent while I wait to be vaidated (if that were to ever happen!!). Thank you all for you comments and wish you all well.

[Me Me Me Me]

That is patronising in the extreme.



It is nice to know that she will be able to get by at one of NATS quiet units.

THOSE were the names I was asking you for.I am sure that my fellow ATCO's around the country would love to know which category you believe they fit in to.

He wasn't being patronising, you are just being ridiculously hyper-sensitive.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Electric-chick... You must be joking about age-related prejudice. All this nonsense started because I wanted you to be aware that starting in ATC can become difficult as one gets older. Some have backed me up...

If you went into the busiest control rooms around the UK you'd find 22-year old kids sitting next to grey-haired 55-year olds, all doing the same job safely, expertly and efficiently. Youngsters tend to be sharper, as in any activity, whilst the oldies have experience to rely on. Equally, you'll find ex-RAF officers and airmen, ex- and currently active pilots, geniuses with several degrees and cloth-heads like me with just two O levels - all doing the same job. When I started there were few ladies in the job but I suspect that there are almost equal numbers of men and women now.

I'd hate to think that you've given up because of what you have read on here.

I sincerely wish you luck with whatever 2nd career you pursue but please don't get the wrong idea about ATC; it's a fantastic profession with great cameraderie and, what was most important for me, loads of time at home with the family.

[Brian 48nav]

I'm breaking my self-imposed decision to only comment on nostalgia/where are they? now type treads - after all nobody wants to hear us retired BOFs going on and on... BUT

DON'T GIVE UP

Send off your application,do the medical,if offered do the interviews etc let fate decide whether or not you will pass them and start the college courses.

I think you will always regret it if you don't give it a go.

As my friend HD has explained it will be difficult,it is even for a fresh-faced 21 year old. I have heard many stories of older people who have been successful at realising their dream to be a pilot.

Your big problem will be coping with the location of the unit you are posted to - there are no NATS units near your home, and with the price of petrol commuting could break the bank. If your application is unsuccessful your husband could look at working overseas,I guess there will be opportunities for someone with his experience.

As far as quiet units are concerned,and having been retired over 10 years I can only guess which they are, the advantage they have over places like Heathrow and Swanwick is that there are periods when with light traffic levels the training officer is able to more easily discuss the various ways of solving each problem as it arises. If you are training as the departure controller at LL,for instance,the flow rate has to be maintained - you just can not allow the trainee to scratch their head and lose several movements per hour. The same applies with the Final Director,the spacing on final has to be correct.

At Heathrow lots of trainees were 'nearly there' but not quite. So most were posted to places like Cardiff, Birmingham,Belfast and validated successfully - some have later gone back to Heathrow and been OK.

Anyway Electric Chick - do it and best of luck.

Brian

[eastern wiseguy]

He wasn't being patronising, you are just being ridiculously hyper-sensitive.

No that wasn't the point . The idea that posting to a "lesser" unit is an option is quite offensive to people who use more than one rating. The idea that a 38 year old trainee should lower their sights IS offensive (to her). However I wonder how much easier it is to validate at 42/43 from scratch in an environment where there is tower ,Lars,radar,ATSOCAS.

I am not sure WHICH units qualify as the better place for a mature student to cut their teeth.


Good luck Electo..whatever you choose.

Unlike HD I will now retire from this debate:p

[Vercingetorix]

Eastern Wiaseguy


quite offensive to people who use more than one rating

Now that is patronising.

HD mentioned 5 different ATC disciplines at both busy and quiet units.

My own tally is as follows:

Aerodrome Control
Approach Control
Approach Radar Control
Area Control
Area Radar control
OJTI
ATSI
ATC Examiner
Rating Examiner
Inspector of ATS

ICAO Safety Management Systems Training Course
European Academy for Aviation Safety (EAFAS) Quality Assessment Course JAR OPS 1

Slightly more than one rating being exercised.

We speak from both knowledge and experience.

Brian 48nav is on the money with sound advice.

Cheers:ok:

[anotherthing]

FFS,

So much willy waving and over sensitivity.

The OP has stated that she has withdrawn her application due to the financial implications of a move. This situation is something that occurs more frequently since we (collectively; I personally didn't) voted to reduce the training wage; it makes it more difficult for people to leave one career to change to ATC. This decision is even more difficult in the current economic climate as leaving a secure job, to try to train as an ATCO, is more of a 'risk' if one eventually does not succeed.

As to age, it is a pretty well established fact that as people grow older the brain does find it more difficult to adapt quickly (which is totally different to learning from books etc, in fact there is some research which shows that for book learning, age is an advantage).

The thinking process becomes 'less agile' - something which can prove to be a problem in learning jobs such as ATC where the ability to think on your feet is required.

Experts have said for a long time that when younger, inexperienced ATCOs can rely on speed of thought process etc to help them in sticky situations. As controllers get older and the brain becomes 'less agile' they have the luxury of experience to help them out of sticky situations.

As for trainees failing at busier units yet validating at quieter ones, people from both sides forget one major factor.

Some people (by no means all), think that validating at a 'quieter unit' after failing to validate at EGLL or LACC (for instance) proves that their unit is harder/more complex.

On the other side of the argument I have heard some OJTIs claim that they must be better at training because they manage to validate people that EGLL/LACC cannot.

We also hear of trainees who think that they have been hard done by at TC (thinking of one case in particular now) because they went on to validate at MACC.

What none of these people seem to remember is that when succesfully validating at 'quieter units' thay have had the luxury of many hours of previous training at another unit.

These hours contribute hugely to the eventual validation.

The system works thus: under the UTP you have a certain amount of hours to train someone. If they do not manage it within that time frame (including extensions) then they have to be failed. This means that someone who moves to a quieter unit often has 400+ hours under their belt already before re-commencing training.

Anyone who does not think that this is a factor in later validation is bonkers! In fact you could argue that if it takes 800 (400 original plus the 400 at the new unit) hours to validate at a 'quieter' unit, then the ability of that trainee is still open to debate. One hopes in such circumstances that the person continues to learn after validation and that experience helps them to become a more rounded and able controller.

As a friend of mine said when asked at his technical interview if he though anyone could become an ATCO, 'given enough hours, yes'.

At every unit there are some tasks that are easier than others. There are some very easy sectors in TC, but also some very difficult ones. Thats why to get band 5 pay you have to meet the MUR i.e. you cannot loaf on an easy sector/airport all the time.

The same is true unit to unit - taken as an overall comparison, some units are more busy/complex than others. That's not to say though that within those quiter units, there are not some tasks that easily rival the complexity/traffic levels of the 'busier' unts.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Wise words, anotherthing.

[chevvron]

Y'know Bren, it never fails to amaze me these people who seem to think you just 'become an ATCO' like you can 'just become a dustman'. They don't seem to realise that getting through selection is less than half the struggle; after that you've got to pass practical and written assessments during the course, and then of course complete unit training to such a level that you get put forward for validation. If you validate, THEN you start to learn the job!

[ZOOKER]

anotherthing,
allegedly, many of those 're-treads' would not describe their experiences south of 5230N as "luxury".

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

T.... Exactly my feelings too!

[coolbeans]

Y'know Bren, it never fails to amaze me these people who seem to think you just 'become an ATCO' like you can 'just become a dustman'. They don't seem to realise that getting through selection is less than half the struggle; after that you've got to pass practical and written assessments during the course, and then of course complete unit training to such a level that you get put forward for validation. If you validate, THEN you start to learn the job!

Im dissapointed by your denigration of the noble and time honered proffesion of dustmen

because

YouTube - Lonnie Donegan - My Old Man's a Dustman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7GeZ3YmONw)

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Ahhh yes! My Old Man wasn't far off that but he worked hard to give me a reasonable education, for which I'm very grateful.

[ZOOKER]

Isn't Skiffle the name of an airfield somewhere near Old Amsterdam? :E

[chevvron]

Back in 1959, Lonnie Donegan did summer season in Great Yarmouth; also on the bill was Des O'Connor. I was 11 years old about 5ft 2in tall; I went to the theatre after the show and got both their autographs and d'you know what? I was taller than both of them!!

[anotherthing]

Zooker,

I doubt any student who fails anywhere would consider that time as a 'luxury'. Having seen a friend and fellow coursemate struggle at TC I saw exactly what it did to him. In fact I personally believe it would have been kinder to have withdrawn him from training much earlier; it was certainly not doing him any good health wise, yet he was as adamant about continuing as the OJTIs were.

People who struggle in training will feel under the cosh, and it is inevitable that frustration will sometimes make them think that they have been hard done by.

I have no doubt that some people who have failed 'south of 5230N' will have had a hard time and may even not have been given the best training. But I can guarantee that the are in the minority... the same as there will be a number north of that latitude that have failed who are in the same boat.

It's a sad fact that the ratio of people who believe they have been given poor training is greater in those who have failed than it is in those who have passed... because that is human nature.

It is a very difficult thing to accept that maybe you are just not able to do the job. It is also very easy to lay blame at the door of the OJTIs or training system instead of being able to hold your head up and admit that despite giving it your best try, you just didn't have the aptitude.

No training system is perfect, but having 400 hours under your belt before moving to another 'quieter' unit to have a go IS a luxury compared to the student on the same IVC as you who has gone to that 'queiter' unit straight from the college.

[ZOOKER]

So why did you leave your "military flying background" to 'push tin', er, sorry Aluminium?
Royal Air Force training system not luxurious enough? :E