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markis10
9th Jan 2011, 22:18
DJ have just released on the ASX confirmation of 18 turboprops with delivery to start mid 2011 as part of a 10 year agreement with Skywest to develop WA regional markets and FIFO charters:

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110110/pdf/41w3df1l79dkrn.pdf



Edit : changed timing to reflect this year for delivery.

Captahab
9th Jan 2011, 22:43
What will the turbo props be ? ATR's ?

Servo
9th Jan 2011, 23:25
HAve heard of rumours of ATR's then again I understand that Mr JB has a soft spot for the Dash 8 400. It is also well known that the Ejet is not the flavour of the month, especially the 170.

A lot of potential questions, ramifications for VB crew??

Or simply the rebirth of Ansett, a phoenix from the ashes?

Icarus2001
9th Jan 2011, 23:33
delivery to start next year

The release actually says beginning mid 2011.

old rope
9th Jan 2011, 23:34
My reading of this seems to indicate this is not just for WA or FIFO, but is an Australian wide plan

Mr. Hat
9th Jan 2011, 23:48
Four questions:

Which type?
Where do the pilots come from?
Do they replace the F50's?
Are they based all in WA ..unlikely?

How long have the Ejets got any predictions on that 1000ft?

markis10
10th Jan 2011, 00:08
I was stuck in 2010 until I had coffee, thanks Icarus2001 for picking up the error :uhoh:

1a sound asleep
10th Jan 2011, 00:11
Got to love such limited info. Could be anything from a Embraer EMB 110 to a Antonov An-22.

I just dont want to see DJ end up with Ansettism and too many fleet types. What was a 737 airline added the jungle jets, 777, A330 and now the mystery turbo prop

737-700
737-800
777
A330
E170
E175
ATR72/Q400

waren9
10th Jan 2011, 00:25
I wouldn't panic. Having a few types is not necessarily a bad thing. So long as each one is the right tool for the job its doing and makes money.

The AirNZ group runs about 8 types and they seem to do OK.

Anyone know for sure if the e-jets make money or do they just stem the losses on skinny routes?

tourismman
10th Jan 2011, 00:32
In the other thread about the Australian domestic scene in 2011

10,000 FT was spot on and Pammy was not.

Well done.

1a sound asleep
10th Jan 2011, 00:33
Jungle Jets have been a financial disaster and a horrible legacy to inherit.
They should never have been ordered and the Q400 should have been bought at the time

Fonz121
10th Jan 2011, 00:58
So who hires the pilots? Virgin or Skywest? Speaking as someone without year 12 physics, hopefully Virgin.

cavemanzk
10th Jan 2011, 01:11
The AirNZ group runs about 8 types and they seem to do OK.

B1900D
Q300
ATR72-500
737-300
A320 Etops (171I International)
A320 Non-Etops (171D Domestic)
767-300ER
747-400
777-200ER
777-300ER

Going Nowhere
10th Jan 2011, 01:22
It'll be XR doing the hiring no doubt so very doubtful if any progression to jets unless you want the Fokker or the Bus! :suspect:

Jose Cuervo
10th Jan 2011, 01:25
Skywest will be operating Q400's painted in Virgin livery.

F111
10th Jan 2011, 02:02
And will most likley open up east coast bases in SYD, BNE and MEL, replacing and growing the 170 network.

Anyone know how much Skywest pay their F50 and F100 pilots, as it might give and idea on how much they pay for a 70 seat turboprop.

DJ's fleet will be;

E190, operating the thin routes which is what they have already started to operate. Depending on how the relationship goes with Skywest these could be replaced by F100's operated by Skywest or the 190's will be transferred to Skywest.

B737 doing what they have been doing over the last 10 years.

A330 operating trans con, plus the golden triangle and Asia.

XRlent320
10th Jan 2011, 02:09
10yr F100 Capt base: $145k
10yr F50 Capt Base: $108k

FO's 65%

1st Year F50 Capt: $97k increasing $1200 per year of service to $108k for 10yr Capt.

4% pay increase as of July 11 and 3% July 12.

Cheers

F111
10th Jan 2011, 02:18
Thanks XR, so if it is a 70 seat turboprop then the pay would be a minimum of $97K and perhaps around the $110-115k for a 1st year captain.

Looks like REX and Qlink will be bleeding pilots again.

Green gorilla
10th Jan 2011, 02:53
Not enough for me.

newsensation
10th Jan 2011, 03:09
Skywest to paint all their aircraft Red, new Q400's arriving from mid this year (4), Based on the East coast, pilots and engineers to come from Sunstate and Eastern..... ready made work force and it kills the competition.
JB is sticking it to Q :D

topend3
10th Jan 2011, 03:22
E190, operating the thin routes which is what they have already started to operate.

I agree - the 190 still has a role - out of PER to the North-West (Newman, Karratha, Broome, Hedland etc) and they are being interchanged with B737 as demand dictates.

Mr. Hat
10th Jan 2011, 03:28
newsensation, I can't see virgin attracting Q400 Qlink guys to another Q400. Their conditions are far superior.

They will come over to jets though. I still wonder where the hell will all the pilots come from?

Blinkered Bill
10th Jan 2011, 03:48
Mr Hat

Sorry but you misunderstand the mood within the Link. The Engineers are already walking. The Pilots dont have jet progression anyway, staff travel is a joke and they simply have had enough of the Bankstown Aero Club mafia and ready to walk. The flight attendants already walk straight from the aircraft to the carpark after a flight. The mothership needs to have an urgent review of the link management team now before the festering boil explodes.

If they could recapture the mood and drive of Sunstate some years ago , crew would flock to the new venture in droves. The crews already have great corporate knowledge of the proposed routes and aircraft, just need the right people at the top.

Riding the Goat
10th Jan 2011, 03:54
So Skywest will operate the aircraft that are owned and painted in VB colours. Sounds like a simliar setup to one that Qantas currently have, also in Perth.

Will the rest of the Skywest fleet remain in current branding or will they also gain the new VB regional paint job?

GAFA
10th Jan 2011, 04:05
I've flown with a great many ex-Qlink pilots and they all say the sameas Bill.

Even though Skywest will be operating the aircraft and not Virgin Blue, Skywest can still offer progression to a jet (F100 or A320) if thats what you want plus you don't hear many (if any) complaints about the T and C's at Skywest.

DJ738
10th Jan 2011, 04:14
newsensation: doubtful the new props will be painted red. Virgin's new livery is likely to be in a whole new direction to the current colourscheme...

Monopole
10th Jan 2011, 04:17
So with QF buying Network, and DJ making an alliance with XR, I wonder how many PH based QQ pilots are busy updating their resumes right now.
you don't hear many (if any) complaints about the T and C's at SkywestYou most certainly do. Although probably not as much as others.

empire4
10th Jan 2011, 04:34
the only mistake VB have made so far with choosing a type is the A330. should have gone for 767-400. Very much like a 777. 737-700 and 737-800 aren't really considered different type.

KABOY
10th Jan 2011, 05:10
You might find that this whole operation will be separate to the current XR operation. Hopes of career progression onto larger, faster aircraft types may not be an option.

As mentioned earlier this may be a similar deal to Cobham, who have split up their various operations under different AOC's.

GAFA
10th Jan 2011, 05:14
Would have to be under the same AOC if they want to start operating by mid-year, however could be under a different EBA and move it over to another AOC in the future.

Beyond tha Threshold
10th Jan 2011, 05:15
So many questions, so much speculation.

All will be revealed tonight.

Just give them a call :}

The telephone conference call briefing for press, analysts and investors
will be held at 9AM London / 5PM Singapore / 8PM SYDNEY time today,
participants may dial in to: +65 66687508 and use the PIN code 423235.

http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/displayAnnouncement.do?display=pdf&idsId=01140591

tourismman
10th Jan 2011, 05:15
Yes it will be separate.You will find Skywest will continue as normal with the F100's and F50's and i think you will find that no new turboprops will be based in the West at all.

This will be treated as a separate division of Skywest.

GAFA
10th Jan 2011, 05:23
Australian Aviatation are reporting Skywest also plan to operate the same aircraft type in it's own right on the WA Coastal routes, so it looks like there will be some new turboprops in the West.

ozbiggles
10th Jan 2011, 05:42
767 was probably the first choice but due to the TARDIS being delayed a decade the cost of a 767 is too much $$$$$$.
TARDIS = 787, both believed to do great things but have you ever seen either one flying?

dodgybrothers
10th Jan 2011, 05:59
So many people speaking with zero authority. Good chuckle though

Mr. Hat
10th Jan 2011, 06:04
B Bill was more referring to Sunstate i suppose. I still cant see Qlink guys going to vb regional. I'm very good at being wrong though lately. They'll be targeting the jet jobs still. Will be interesting from a recruiting perspective.

As for engineers and fa's yes well qlink could find themselves in deepsh!t there.

Empire I think JB wanted 76's but couldn't get them. Someone enlighten me where are they going to park them?

QQ pilots? Well they ain't going to go and fly a Dash 8 are they? I wonder if the penny has dropped over in the west that vb are there to stay. Hellloooo they are bringing a two new types in specifically for one state! Yoohooo...

Skywest TC's? XR320/100 would be the people to ask. They do seem to have quite a few departures these days unlike years ago when basically noone left. Was THE job to have. Ultimately though which regional/charter mob doesn't loose pilots to majors?

topend3
10th Jan 2011, 07:24
Someone enlighten me where are they going to park them?

If it is Perth you are talking about they will take over parking spots currently allocated to F50's as they get retired?

Waghi Warrior
10th Jan 2011, 07:46
B Bill has the right idea, if Qlink can't supply the drivers I'm sure PX will !

Mr. Hat
10th Jan 2011, 08:36
Who is px?

knobjockey6
10th Jan 2011, 08:42
It will beat flying shit box saabs

CatTower
10th Jan 2011, 08:47
How much will they charge for a turbo prop endorsment?

F111
10th Jan 2011, 09:02
PX = Air Nuigni

Icarus2001
10th Jan 2011, 10:39
First aircraft only six months away, very tight schedule for a new aircraft on an AOC. Unless of course you already have it on there.:rolleyes:

gobbledock
10th Jan 2011, 10:46
First aircraft only six months away, very tight schedule for a new aircraft on an AOC. Unless of course you already have it on there.:rolleyes:
Very astute observation. Under a new entry AOC it won't happen in 6 months, I will put money on it. But as Icarus2001 says....................

Skystar320
10th Jan 2011, 11:01
Well, there is plenty of Fokker F50's available on the market!

newsensation
10th Jan 2011, 20:06
Virgin Blue seeks more in regional areas (http://www.smh.com.au/business/virgin-blue-seeks-more-in-regional-areas-20110110-19l65.html)

Skywest base's on the East Coast with Q400s, payrate some where between F50 and F100?? with more than 8 days off in 28..

Blinkered Bill
10th Jan 2011, 21:34
Doesnt the owner of REX have a large shareholding in VB. If so this will be interesting.

bubble.head
10th Jan 2011, 21:53
I still cant see Qlink guys going to vb regional.

I can feel it in Eastern. The captains want to have more time off (>8 days off). The fo want to have a career progression. If they offer either of those with reasonable remuneration, you will see people leaving from the left or the right of the pit. But all depends whether JB gets ATR or Q400.

Riding the Goat
11th Jan 2011, 00:52
Skywest Press Release:

http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20110110/pdf/41w3dlmdm0tczt.pdf

Second last paragraph on first page, states Skywest will be replacing current fleet with new type to be used in WA on current network.

Doesn't make it clear whether F50/F100's will go or if they will only be used on FIFO.

wtfia
11th Jan 2011, 00:52
Quote:
First aircraft only six months away, very tight schedule for a new aircraft on an AOC. Unless of course you already have it on there.

Very astute observation. Under a new entry AOC it won't happen in 6 months, I will put money on it. But as Icarus2001 says....................

The aircraft are turning up in the middle of the year however the release stated they plan to have four operational by the end of 2011. Im no expert, does that give them sufficient time to get a new type ok'd? I would guess yes.

GAFA
11th Jan 2011, 01:01
All Vaus, PacBlue and VB crews have been informed the aircraft will be a new modern type and will allow for new routes along the East Coast.

So yes it will be a new type for Skywest. Remember JB has been working on this since he started with the company, so just because it was annouced yesterday it doesn't mean Skywest /VB started work on changes to the AOC yesterday. They would have been working on this for months, so much of the required paperwork etc required to add the type would already be completed.

Mr. Hat
11th Jan 2011, 03:01
I can feel it in Eastern. The captains want to have more time off (>8 days off). The fo want to have a career progression. If they offer either of those with reasonable remuneration, you will see people leaving from the left or the right of the pit. But all depends whether JB gets ATR or Q400.

I wouldn't assume it'll fall under the VB eba. Vaus didn't and neither did Pac Bro. Qlink doesn't fall under QF does it? There you go.

I think REX will be the first to suffer the losses for east coast bases. The Qlink salary whilst not massive is more than at REX. Then there is the likes of Skippers which will fill the majority of the WA spots. There might be one of those spontaneous pay rises coming up! Either that or a closing of doors due to an exodus. You'd have to say with Network/QF and XR/VB deals Skippers might want to set and alarm clock. Could we see Alliance/Skippers deal? Year of the merger deals?

So many in WA said "oh Virgin, they'll be gone soon". Well JB has kicked off "leaving" WA by getting 4 a 330's and 18 turbo props the majority of which are focused on the resource rich WA. Kudos to those on the Ejet in Perth that took the punt (not that it was a punt anyway) and now have the quickest Jet commands anywhere in the continent. Before you know it the 73-800s will be based there as well. But thats right they'll be gone soon..


Anyone with actual figures

Captain: $
FO: $
FA: $
Days off per month:
Other:

for

1. REX
2. Qlink
3. XR

Chadzat
11th Jan 2011, 05:40
For those interested, here is a link to the broadcast of yesterdays conference call which clears up some things mentioned in this thread and muddies the waters for other issues!

Annual General Meeting (AGM) and Online Stock Investment News for Australian (ASX) Listed Companies - Boardroom Radio (http://www.brr.com.au/)

Click on the SXR broadcast on the front page.

Fonz121
11th Jan 2011, 06:28
Thanks for the link Chad.

"All new routes to be outside WA" according to the Chairman.

topend3
11th Jan 2011, 06:40
"All new routes to be outside WA" according to the Chairman.

No surprise there, as all the existing WA routes for the new metal already operated by XR!

The Green Goblin
11th Jan 2011, 08:04
I'd hazard a guess and say those 170s are perfect for the Skywest coastal network :)

Skystar320
11th Jan 2011, 09:40
GG - 170's are out!

43Inches
11th Jan 2011, 09:46
Isn't Avation chaired by the chairman of Skywest, that is the turboprops are leased to VB by skywest then operated by skywest at no lease because VB will pay the lease? So Skywest own the turboprops they are being gifted? Sounds a little confusing to say the least....

Skystar320
11th Jan 2011, 09:48
Not really - Sounds like a perfect ACMI lease.

F111
11th Jan 2011, 10:01
ATR are pushing the new -600 model which features a new full glass flight deck with cat 3 AP and ACARS. It also a newer larger engines which makes it faster than the current -500.

In the phone hook-up yesterday Skywest confirmed the VB deal is for a 70 seat turboprop so we could see the 72-600 used on the east coast and the 42-600 in the west. They also said they are looking for the best deal, so with ATR keen to get the 72 into Australia I'm sure they will sharpen their pencil.
*

t_cas
11th Jan 2011, 10:18
43inches. That is interesting.......... isn't it. Was looking at that during the announcement an it smacks of creative accounting. I hope the ATR is not the machine purely on the basis that the E series jets have been proven to be the wrong decision on a cost analysis....

Kenny
11th Jan 2011, 19:40
This development is great for Skywest and VB management but will most likely have huge repercussions for the VB pilots.

It's merely the first step in the outsourcing of VB flying, to pilots that are not on the VB pilot list and if it's not stopped could very well come back to haunt us in the future.

There is absolutely nothing that stops the following from happening......First Skywest starts operating TP's on new routes for VB, Australia wide. Then they start flying on routes currently operated by VB pilots flying the EMB's.

After a period of time, if Skywest does a good job, VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's and fly them in VB colours. Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes.

Outsourcing is a far cheaper option for Management and if you don't think so, simply look at the rise of the regional airlines in the US. United pilots currently fly less than 50% of all the aircraft painted in United colours. An entire fleet of United 73's were retired over a period of 12 months and replaced by CRJ700/EMB170's flown by contract airlines and pilots paid a hell of a lot less than the 73 pilots they replaced.

A 5th year FO flying the EMB170 in United Express colours is paid US$45k a year!!!!!

Every pilot at VB needs to read up on "Scope" and how having a scope clause in the next EBA is a major priority. Without one, they'll end up watching their flying being farmed out to contractors and any career progression, disappearing down the toilet.

ANCDU
11th Jan 2011, 20:51
Kenny is spot on here. People seem to forget that JB was at the helm of mainline when he gave the Tasman flying to Jitconnect, and he never did anything about progression from Qlink to mainline. He is a great manager, but didn't do a huge amount for the careers of current Qantas pilots. Probably a good time for VB pilots to put something in place so they don't start losing their flying and career opportunities. Good luck!

missing link
11th Jan 2011, 21:49
Interesting..............head of training has just given notice at Qlink to go to "CASA".......
If they offered jet progression, Qlink guys would flock to VB and they would have a ready made operation with all the training and operational knowledge..............that is of course if they get 400's:rolleyes:

Transition Layer
11th Jan 2011, 22:06
And Kenny, the irony is that the company doing that flying for United is called none other than...

Skywest (USA) (http://www.skywest.com/)

neville_nobody
11th Jan 2011, 22:09
Probably a good time for VB pilots to put something in place so they don't start losing their flying and career opportunities.

Yep with no scope it will be game over. It will be Jetstar all over again. You only have to look at the USA and what has happened in Australia to figure that out.

Here's hoping the AFAP gets it act together about this issue.

The other issue pilots might want to be aware of is the way Skywest is structured. The aircraft leasing company makes all the money while Skywest airlines runs on very tight margins. This makes wage negotiations very difficult.

Skynews
11th Jan 2011, 22:42
Here's hoping the AFAP gets it act together about this issueyeh right, buy a lottery ticket instead:mad:

Kenny
11th Jan 2011, 22:51
And Kenny, the irony is that the company doing that flying for United is called none other than...

Well they're one of about 5 or 6 UAL Express carriers. The more there are, the more UAL can play them off against eachother and keep the costs down.

This is a pivotal moment for the VB pilots. JB has come in and done a lot of good in a fairly short space of time. He's also said a lot of the right things, to an employee group that was hardly happy but he's not here to give us the warm and fuzzies. He's here to make money for the share-holders and if he can do that by having contract airlines fly VB routes for less, he'll do it.

Don Diego
11th Jan 2011, 23:08
If it is cheaper then they will do it, end of story. As for them offering a premium to lure present Q-link boys and girls over to the new operation it simply will not happen. :ugh:

sled_driver71
12th Jan 2011, 01:04
Kenny.


"VB management asks them to take on the EMB170's" - they are already up for sale so no chance of that happening.

"Now you have pilots flying a VB type at what will probably be less money than the current VB rates, on VB routes." - according to the Skywest EBA on the FWA website they get pretty well renumerated relative to aircraft size for what they do, i mean a 3rd year F50 FO is on $65000 to fly a 21t turboprop! Whats a Jet* FO on relative to dollars/tonne?

Will be very interesting to see tho how Skywest will double their pilot, cabin crew, engineering numbers in the next year? (the GA boys will be salivating...)

chickoroll
12th Jan 2011, 01:16
Will the entry requirments be the same as Skywest? I don't have Physics and I'm sure there would be a lot of other Pilots around that do not have it.

The Green Goblin
12th Jan 2011, 01:31
Will the entry requirments be the same as Skywest? I don't have Physics and I'm sure there would be a lot of other Pilots around that do not have it.

Solution - GET IT!

I'm sure your 'competition' won't hesitate if they need it to get the job!

GG

Normasars
12th Jan 2011, 01:47
S D71

Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that.

This whole wank thing about size and weight is just that. Wank.

The same can be said about the hoohaa regarding widebody. It's no different. Don't let them tell you it is; nothing could be further from the truth.

My point being, they will pay what they can pay to get away with it. READ, as cheaply as we let them. The only reason Jokestar pays a joke is because WE HAVE LET THEM. If nobody was to apply for said positions ie T&Cs were not good enough, the operator would be forced to offer more. It's market forces at play. Nothing to do with weight/size/pax capacity etc.

However, going by history in this country, there will be fools out there that will do it for next to nothing. I do hope that I am wrong, but very much doubt it.

Chadzat
12th Jan 2011, 01:48
People dont seem to be able to read press releases these days. The aircraft will be SKYWEST OPERATED. So to clear up any confusion- if you want to fly these new aircraft they are getting for Virgin, you will need to be employed by Skywest.

chode1984
12th Jan 2011, 02:16
Solution - GET IT!

I'm sure your 'competition' won't hesitate if they need it to get the job!

GG


I'm in the same boat! No physics. Wrote to them the other day to find out what they require if this is the case and I haven't heard back as of yet. Getting year 12 physics isn't that simple if you live outside the cities.

I'm hoping they'll accept a bridging course through one of the uni's via correspondence.

Wombat
12th Jan 2011, 04:17
Whoa Kenny!

While you are correct about the outsourcing aspect of one of your previous posts, Skywest Pilot's T&Cs are quite reasonable. ie Skywest A320 pilots are approx on par with Vb 737 pilots conditions. Certainly alot better than Jokestar. So I doubt you see Skywest pilot"s flying on any percieved reduced terms and conditions.

Wombat

neville_nobody
12th Jan 2011, 05:18
I will bet that Skywest will draw up a entirely different contract for the Virgin painted props.

Another scenario is that they will actually shut down the entire F50 operation and fire all the F50 pilots. Then all these routes plus the east coast are replaced by the VB painted turboprops flown by pilots on the new conditions. The F50 drivers will then have to reapply for the new contract. The F100 guys then remain operating the blue tailed F100s. Very clean and decisive.

If nobody was to apply for said positions ie T&Cs were not good enough, the operator would be forced to offer more. It's market forces at play. Nothing to do with weight/size/pax capacity etc

Not necessarily. REX proved this in recent history as they tried to employ foreign labour to solve their crewing problems. They got caught out because they didn't actually pay enough to qualify for the visas but goes to show where all this is heading.

If Australian pilot labour market gets dragged into an international labour market situation we will get crucified as there are many many countries who pay their pilots much lower than what Australian pilots currently enjoy.

Have a look at the average salary of pilots in South Africa, NZ, Fiji, Canada and the USA in comparison with what we get over here. If hypothetically every ozzie pilot refused to work for Jetstar all they need to do is go on a recruitment drive to a few countries and that will solve their problems. Not saying I agree with it, but just reality.

Have a look at the Spirit Airlines strike in the USA recently. 45K a year as a FO on a International A320 operation, 3 years of negotiation and still no pay rise.

sled_driver71
12th Jan 2011, 05:31
Normasars

yeh mate well aware of that. I was just saying for what they do, in comparison to other airlines, they get paid pretty well. Their T & C's are safe for another 3 years under their EBA so all new piolts will operate under it, and start at the bottom of the seniority list, INCLUDING direct entry check and trainers as has happened on the A320.

Good luck to all new prospective pilots wanting a slice...

Waghi Warrior
12th Jan 2011, 05:31
Regardless of what kind of turboprop they go for,I can't see them being up and running before the end of the year anyway,unless they of course go for second hand machines as both ATR and Bombardier can't produce aircraft within six months that haven't been ordered yet. Having said that,what's to say that the machines haven't been ordered through another source.

From the very little information that I know,ATR have really been pushing their products in our region,offering some airlines some pritty good deals to purchase their machines,especially the ATR 42-500. I think most operators are hanging out for the -600 models as they are the machines for hot and high places.

Their was also a rumour going around that someone was considering putting an ATR sim in Australia somewhere,possibly in Cairns or Brisbane.

Now that Bombardier have stopped producing the 37 and 50 seater
Dash 8s,ATR 42s may become a more common sight around our skies in the future.

S70IP
12th Jan 2011, 06:28
Hi Nom,

Quote "Most real airlines have what is known as Fleet Pay. A Capt earns $X and the F/O 60-65% of that. "

Not having a go but I just can't find any airline that operates a narrow bodied fleet of jets with the pax load differences between the types (ie, 72 pax compared to 180 pax) that offers fleet pay?

Cx and Em do but they are wide bodied.

Anyone?

Mr. Hat
12th Jan 2011, 07:20
The owner of Skywest said on the telelink that the flying to be done was not in WA. This means the Q400/ATR will be doing routes that Embraers do and smaller. Afterall, Embraers were originally brought in to compete against the Qlink "400s".

Do you think JB is going to keep both running side by side particularly when the Q400 wont be under the VB EBA? This means no 11/12 days off 12 hours min rest means etc. The Q400 is not only cheaper to run, it doesn't break down every 5 minutes AND it will have cheaper crew with more rostering flexibility.

Does it need to be spelt out any clearer than that? Its not what people want to hear but its reality.

Bluebottle
12th Jan 2011, 07:41
The Q400 doesn't breakdown every 5 minutes??????....if you believe that you clearly don't fly one.

Mr. Hat
12th Jan 2011, 08:00
you clearly don't fly one. yes thank god.

JB is of the opinion that they are better than Ejets and thats all that matters! Might be ATR's. Some say this 600 is pretty special but other say its slow compared to the Q400.

maui
12th Jan 2011, 08:09
I never cease to be amazed at the negativity of the new breed of Australian pilots.

Have any of you ever considered that Mr B is smart enough to know that a happy and cohesive workforce is actually an asset rather than a liability.
Have you ever considered that he may even think that engagement is more profitable than disengagement.
Have you ever considered that the reason he was not given the gong in the Q is because he is a reasonable guy, with traditional values.

Mr B will be well aware that one of the biggest blows he can land on his opposition will be to emasculate it's workforce. All he has to do is offer similar salaries, preferential recruitment (for allies) and fleetwide career progression and he will have a compliant, satisfied workforce, and access to as many aircrew as this country can provide. The last thing he would want to do is to piss off those who will make his dream, work.

It is my tip that none of the doomsday scenario's will eventuate. VB will move to a more consultative and inclusive mode.

The plan is not yet fully exposed.

Give the man some credit, and learn to dream. It may come true.

Maui

kiwilad
12th Jan 2011, 09:08
Could be ATR 600's and the launch customer for the supposed 90 seater ATR. That would be really interesting.

Bluebottle beat me to it, haven't the Q400's been all grounded at least once this year. Not the most reliable machine, it goes fast and burns the fuel to prove it.

I heard a rumour that QLink was running them a bit slower to try and get close to the advertised engine life. Heard that third hand so happy to be corrected.

New ATR sim in AKL too. New alliance with big brother maybe a regional alliance?

Going Nowhere
12th Jan 2011, 09:20
Realistic TAS for the Q400 is around 315-325kts, depending on weight and conditions. ATR -600 wouldn't be much slower than that.

Either way it would appear that QLink's days of screwing QLD towns may be numbered :=

Warped Wings
12th Jan 2011, 10:05
New ATR sim in AKL too

I would say that the ATR - 600 is too far removed from the older models in terms of it's cockpit differences that a new - 600 sim would be required by Casa.

Chadzat
12th Jan 2011, 10:09
When is the soonest that the ATR -600's realistically would be available? Have they started making them yet?

GAFA
12th Jan 2011, 10:51
Note, not all Embraers are leaving DJ. JB confirmed yesterday to all staff the 170's will be gone by mid-year and replaced with the turboprop. 190's are here for at least the medium term has their reliablity has approved and is equal to the 737 and are working well (ie making money) on the thin routes.

-600 deliveries are due to start mid this year and ATR are showing 40 orders, split between the 42 and 72 for undisclosed customers.

On Guard
12th Jan 2011, 18:54
Good source says ATR and don't I recall something about the ATR being placed on VB's AOC 12 or so mths ago?

Also Avaition is a lease company so may have options for these a/c it can exercise shortly. Its not VB ordering them.

mince
12th Jan 2011, 19:13
This little foray is off to a good start. Getting the announcement right would be a priority wouldn't it???

Investegate |Skywest Airlines Ltd Announcements | Skywest Airlines Ltd: Strategic Alliance with Virgi (http://www.investegate.co.uk/Article.aspx?id=201101100700071454Z)

Skywest says turbo jets, Virgin says turbo props......

southernskyz
12th Jan 2011, 19:51
Has anyone stopped and thought,that a reasonable number of the F/O positions for this new DJ/Skywest operation, could be filled by Skywest's cadets?

Yes, Skywest has cadets training in MEL from scratch.

KRUSTY 34
12th Jan 2011, 21:42
Of course!

A perfect tie up. Cadets pay for it all themselves in OZ, and the status quo for their wages will fit in nicely with VB's policy of reducing T&C's with the introduction of each new Operation and/or type. They can source Type Rated Captains from Europe, The US, South Africa etc, Pay them $70K P/A, and these people will be grateful.

Slicker than snot! :}

maui:

Agree with your sentiments 100%, but do you honestly believe that JB will embark upon such an enlightened path. They are all tared with the same brush, and with the utmost of respect, you of all people should know that. If I'm wrong, I'll shout it from the rooftops, but I'm afraid I have to agree with Kenny and ANCDU (posts #64 A) of the most likely outcome, crewing wise!

maui
12th Jan 2011, 23:00
Krusty.

My point is that the ink is not yet dry and indeed the chapter is not yet fully written. Many more pages to come. And still we have all in sundry jumping on the "how are they going to screw us this time" band wagon.

Mr B is yet to prove his credentials WRT to enlightenment/engagement, however unless/until he shows evil intent, he deserves the chance to lay out his plans in an orderly fashion.

When it is all out there, if you don't like it, kick and scream as much as you like.
I have spoken with the man on a one to one basis, and came away impressed. Naive? Perhaps. Only time will tell.
Sure as hell though if people piss him off enough with their "not fair, not fair" rantings he has the power to screw us all mightily, should he feel that way inclined. Having said that, I gained the distinct impression that he felt engagement was by far the better option.

Personally, I think the nay sayers and second guessers should wind their necks in a bit, and allow management to manage. We should do what we do best, operate the company's equipment, and if at the end of the day when ALL plans are known, it is not to our liking, THEN we should be stridently vocal.

For info, I am at the stage where I don't really have a horse in this race, I am along for the ride but the outcome for me is largely irrelevant. Perhaps that gives me the comfort of a different perspective. I am not and never have been an apologist for management. I have the badges and the scars to prove it. The one thing I have learned is that the old saying about continually doing the same, inevitably results in the same outcome, is so true.
The expression "self fulfilling prophesy" looms large in my mind.
How about doing something different, like giving a professional manager a chance to declare what he is about, BEFORE we hang him. You never know, maybe that nice guy exterior may just extend below the surface.

Maui

markis10
12th Jan 2011, 23:05
ATR have three undisclosed customers for the 600 series whereas Bombardier have no undisclosed orders late last year, ATR also have a major annual press conference next week, however I expect the announcement will be made at Avalon.

43Inches
12th Jan 2011, 23:06
Realistic TAS for the Q400 is around 315-325kts, depending on weight and conditions. ATR -600 wouldn't be much slower than that.

QLink operates the Q400 at these speeds for whatever reason, it can easily achieve 340kts in cruise.

The ATR-72-500 is only capable of 275TAS at max weight in optimum conditions. The -600 has 5% more power available for take-off and max continuous climb. This allows an increase in max take-off weight and cruise altitude capability but there is no mention of increased speed as the cruise power settings would not increase much. Considering the increased weight the aircraft should be about the same speed. The ATR 42 because of its lighter weight and smaller frame is capable of 300KTAS.

The speed difference on the longer sectors is noticed by the passengers, even when its only 40kts its still around 5-10minutes on a 200nm sector and the slower time to climb will also make a difference.

Other differences between the two aircraft is that the ATR 72 will struggle above FL160 heavy (especially in ice), the dash easily makes FL200+. A big consideration with weather in SE Aus. During winter the worst icing occurs in the 10000ft to FL200 range. At least a SAAB will happily fly long distances under 10000ft with its helicopter engines to avoid headwinds and ice.

The first delivery of ATR-600 to a leasing company is not due until late 2011.

goanna1
12th Jan 2011, 23:58
If people would read the Skywest T & Cs in Riding the Goat's post on page 3 they would find a lot of the answers to their questions. SALPA have done a lot of good work over the years and I doubt you will see them leading the race to the bottom.

GAFA
13th Jan 2011, 02:56
Just read the Skywest EBA and agree they are far from the bottom.

Riding the Goat
13th Jan 2011, 04:00
If people would read the Skywest T & Cs in Riding the Goat's post on page 3 they would find a lot of the answers to their questions. SALPA have done a lot of good work over the years and I doubt you will see them leading the race to the bottom.

What's the saying about, you can lead a horse to water, but you cann't make it drink. Most pilots are only interested in the salary chart and skip the fine print. The EBA has provisions for new aircraft types, new bases, direct entry crew for new aircraft on contract, bonds (new to Skywest), etc, and it was helped by the TWU!

For those that again are too lazy to look, here is the sales pitch for the ATR. Like all good marketing material, take 5% off the stated figures and that is probably what it will do:

ATR-600 Series - ATR - Propelling Tomorrow's World (http://www.atraircraft.com/products/atr-600-series.html)

500 Series Perf Specs (scroll down page):

ATR 72-500 - ATR - Propelling Tomorrow's World (http://www.atraircraft.com/products/atr-72-500.html)

ATR makes sense as 42/72-600 are a common cockpit, engine, etc. Very easy for crewing, ops and maint. They also offer a business class option, which would be an interesting addition on a regional in OZ.

If the competion is QLink, why would you go head to head with an established operator with the same equipment unless you could keep costs down. At this stage it doesn't look like Skywest are going to screw the T&C's of their staff so it makes sense that they are going to offer a different product as their point of difference, enter the ATR.

newsensation
13th Jan 2011, 06:00
The ATR 600 looks good, easy conversion for Q400 crews..... and Skywest pay more than Qlink....:rolleyes:

Mr. Hat
13th Jan 2011, 06:25
$55k as a Cruise F/O at V Aust flying half way across the planet to feel like sh!t most of the time with no upgrade to F/O likely

Try two free Boeing endorsements (one command) and flying a brand new NG whilst holding original seniority. Not too bad in my book! Some only have piston time so might have been a bit of a stretch competing with the masses particularly give QF ain't recruiting. So given all of that not too bad if you previously flew a baron. Don't forget some with significant Jet experience have ended up on the ejet or not getting a job at all.

All depends on what you want to do.

What are the qlink and rex salaries anyone?

Seriously
13th Jan 2011, 06:28
Actually Cruise FOs at V are on about 61k atm but the EBA is still being negotiated, and most of them who have had interviews at VB have got in recently. About 10-20 of them have gone to VB now.

The pay isn't that flash atm but wait for the EBA

muII
13th Jan 2011, 07:52
Hatchet Harry, dont know where you are getting your numbers from, but they are way out.(LOW).

KRUSTY 34
13th Jan 2011, 08:11
WRT comparisons of the salary at REX, Hatchet Harry's post is interesting. 1st Year F50 Captains salary at Skywest is approx the same as 10th year Captains salary at REX! Admittedly the F50 is a larger aircraft. 1st year F/O salary at skywest is far above what a 10 year F/O earns at REX! (around $56K).

REX salaries are approx 20% below their Qlink counterparts, and that's for the Q200/300. This has been achieved over the past 15 years by a combination circumstance (2 pleaded for wage freezes), subsequent broken management promisses, and ruthless delaying tactics at EBA time. Just to name few. :=

Come Feb/Mar, Same management will once again be looking at ways to save the business! :rolleyes:

Global Xpress
13th Jan 2011, 09:03
Qlink salaries are down somewhat on skywest, but from what I have read, the guys at skywest have worked hard to keep their conditions with genuine wage increases each year:ok:

QLK first year capt round $86k, FO round $55k. Add 7% only for the Q400. Additional 3% was due july last year but EBA expired. May get interesting however, guess we will know from FWA come 3pm tomorrow.;)

F111
13th Jan 2011, 10:30
Skywest also have a low hour overtime trigger of only 59 hrs per month.

yowieII
13th Jan 2011, 11:42
So can anyone tell us all what a AN or TN prop driver was on 20 or so years ago?? I doubt the jet guys are any better...

Mr. Hat
13th Jan 2011, 20:03
KRUSTY, given all of that: who in their right mind would work for REX?

Not picking on you or REX pilots, but really the conditions according to your post and every single REX pilot i've ever spoken to are nothing short of abysmal. Funnily enough those pilots don't even mention the EBA stuff, they just talk of the C & T intimidation and anal carry on.

I suspect Qlink, Skywest and Rex all have the following:

8 days off (like office workers but not on the weekends! Read much worse off)
9 hours min rest.
More than 5 sector days allowed.

Skywest salary looks to be the best. I know that Qlink have QF staff travel and that their crew meals are very good. I Have a mate that rubs it in quite often! At the end of the day though as one poster pointed out: Most pilots look only at the salary when looking at the EBA. It is the other fine print and culture that ultimately make the conditions.

43Inches
13th Jan 2011, 21:53
Even if the Skywest EBA was adjusted by only 5% for an ATR or Q400 it would be a base of $102K to $112K. If the productivity allowance above 59 hours is also adhered to the pilots averaging 70hours a month (not hard if similar schedules to Rex or QLink) should earn an additional $1000 a month and then additional allowances. So without too much issue a Captain could be earning $114 to $125K a year. All this then increases again at 4% mid year.

Considering the other clauses such as required 1 hour sign on and only 1 set of 6 in a row etc....


Skywest salary looks to be the best


The whole package appears better, what it will come down to is what sort of rostering is done in regard to overnights and time away from home. At that pay if its the same as a jet roster (multiple nights away from home in a row and back of the clock flying) why bother when you can earn the 10 year captain pay rate as a 737 or A320 FO at Jetstar or Virgin.

KRUSTY 34
13th Jan 2011, 22:33
It 'aint rocket science is it Mr.Hat. :ok:

piston broke again
13th Jan 2011, 23:52
Senior FO's at VB typically gross around $140k for the year with $10-15k tax free allowances on top....Add tax on top of the allowances (for comparison to any other job out there) and you're talking $160k.

Mr. Hat
14th Jan 2011, 00:20
The myth of multiple nights away and Back of the Clock continues..

43Inches
14th Jan 2011, 01:13
The myth of multiple nights away and Back of the Clock continues..
Not sure what you mean by that, are you saying that Virgin, Qantas, Jetstar and Tiger aircraft all sit on the ground between 10pm and 6am in the morning, or do they fly without crew?

Mr. Hat
14th Jan 2011, 03:53
No but you can work your roster to suit your needs.

Anyway, back to the DJ Turbo props..

Exciting times I'm keen to see which aircraft it is and if there will be a business class. Will be interesting to see the final product. The JB vision.

wtfia
14th Jan 2011, 06:38
Im thinking the Q, despite the fact it can be a hangar queen. From what I have read on the ATR, the Q400 is faster and carries more.

THE ORACLE
14th Jan 2011, 07:08
Mr Hat I see you are as enthusiastic as ever! Well now, lets take a little reality check on the 'JB vision' as you call it.

Skywest has agreed to a joint venture with DJ for 10 years where they shoulder all the commercial and financial risk in exchange for DJ sales and marketing support, including the Velocity FF program. There was no mention of any equity stake in Skywest by DJ in the joint press releases. No surprise there as DJ's balance sheet shows they have no real money to invest.

As I mentioned in the other Dunnunda forum recently, joint ventures such as these have been used by US majors for many years and due to immense cost pressures almost invariable have resulted in the regional partner going 'bust'. This is because not only does the regional have to cover it's own costs and make a profit it also has to pay a substantial royalty to the code-share partner for every passenger supplied through their reservation system. This aspect was briefly mentioned in the Skywest/Virgin press releases.

Occasionally after the 'train wreck' the code-sharing major partner has very cheaply bought the assets of the defunct regional partner and internalised the business. Could this be JB's ultimate aim for 3 to 4 years hence? Time will tell!

Since the announcements others have established that Skywest's pilot T. & C. 's are more generous than their future competitor's and that regardless of which manufacturer wins the order the new aeroplanes will have a sticker price of around USD $20 Million, not including simulator (a new 'sim' if the ATR and full market rate rental off QF if the Q-400) and let's not forget the substantial spares package that will be needed.

Skywest's current revenue base for last year was around 350,000 passengers and the leasing company supplying the 18 new turbo's (i.e under-righting $360,000,000 in leases and which is also chaired by the skywest Chairman) uses the existing Skywest Fokker 100 fleet as their asset backing. Last time I looked a used F100 was worth less that USD $1 Million.

Given that each new aircraft will need 5 to 6 crews (covering for holidays, sickness, etc), Skywest need to recruit 180 to 216 new pilots. If these pilots are to be 'poached' from existing operators, attractive pilot and engineer T. & C's need to be offered.

The yet to be announced 'new' aircraft will cost as much as the Qlink aircraft and both the ATR and Q-400 run P&W engines which are not known for their fuel efficiency at low flight levels.

The other elephant in the room is REX who last year carried 1.2 million passengers, have other impressive and diverisfied assets and because they own their entire operation have the lowest costs in the industry. Unless Skywest and Qlink for that matter, successfully targets REX pilots and engineers to 'poach' their technical staff and neutralise their operations, REX will be a formidable competitor.

Someone please tell me how JB will achieve his 'vision' of substantially reducing the cost of regional transport with such competitive realities.

There is no doubt this is going to be a 'blood bath' and the travelling public will be the only winner for a short time period.

Anyone see the ultimate outcome any differently?

The Oracle

Icarus2001
14th Jan 2011, 07:28
A thoroughly negative view of the proposal. I don't think it will be a disaster at all. Do you think you or any of us is aware of what is planned? There is a bigger picture here and we only see a small part of the plan.

To rebutt one assertion...have a sticker price of around USD $20 Million, not including simulator (a new 'sim' if the ATR and full market rate rental off QF if the Q-400)

The "sticker price" is not really relevant in that the monthly or yearly lease cost is what counts, agreed that is a function of the "sticker price".

If ATR get the nod for the fleet I think you will see them fund or partially fund a sim. 18 airframes would be worth it. Just as Boeing through Alteon assist VB with 737 NG sim training.

Full market rate on a Q400 sim. Yep. Just like they will pay full market rate for their fuel. Full market rate for landing and ANC. Full market rate for advertising. Full market rate for any outsourced service. So what, that would be in the budget for the operation.

Goat Whisperer
14th Jan 2011, 08:10
Oracle:

I see the outcome differently....

Unlike the US regionals, Skywest is not burdened with the ownership costs of the feeder aircraft, obtaining the aircraft is VB's responsibility.

Ultimately, it's not ridiculous that VB might take an equity stake in Skywest, but the time to get that cheap has truly passed.

Whatever type is selected a sim will be required, plenty of bays in Melbourne. Qantas' is pretty busy.

Rex will survive, they make most of their coin on routes no-one else could be bothered with, and they use an aircraft with half the capacity.

captwawa
14th Jan 2011, 08:32
" Senior FO's at VB typically gross around $140k for the year with $10-15k tax free allowances on top....Add tax on top of the allowances (for comparison to any other job out there) and you're talking $160k. "

Is that VB or VA?
Whats a senior FO? are you referring to level 3 vb fo?

if VB thats heaps of callouts...

Mr. Hat
14th Jan 2011, 09:56
Great to see some robust discussion on the prune.

G'day captwawa, I've seen more than one group certificates that indicate more than 140k (allowances not counted of course). Ultimately though it involves callouts and OT which seems there is plenty of in a growing company. So you are right but I don't think its a rarity.

ORACLE an interesting read. For your information I don't se it as all beer and skittles either but try not to be the doomsdayer always and sometimes can come across this way. Newbies read and I don't want to fill their minds with too much of my learned negativity!

My main concern is this:Skywest need to recruit 180 to 216 new pilots.The time frame is concerning even though it will be gradual. This is a massive undertaking. East Coast bases, new type and quadruple the pilot group. Its a BIG ask.

I think if current F50 conditions are offered, REX will lose pilots and Qlink may depending on bases. The big question is: Will the job mean a foot in the door at VB? If it does, like it is at VA (no guarantee but better than nothing at the moment) then this will attract even more. I wouldn't expect conditions to be more than the XR EBA perhaps they may even be less.

I don't see REX as a formidable competitor. Why? Yes their cost base is nearly unbeatable. That is when no jobs are going. When jobs are going they loose pilots quicker than anyone in the country. Its no surprise that the companies where the conditions are the lowest are the companies that loose pilots the quickest. How many left QF and VB in the last 12 months? How many left the old Skywest? So loosing pilots is costly. I know they see us as just replaceable but it all adds up. Of course the cry foul will come out like in the magical 07. The key to the entire thing will be conditions which is purely what controls quantity and thus quality of applicants. It only takes one stuff up and the whole shooting match is over.

Cadets you say? Good luck Captains I say.

Skystar320
14th Jan 2011, 10:06
Bring it on! No hope for Qantas... will they even have a reaction?

CSTGuy
14th Jan 2011, 10:21
No hope for Qantas... will they even have a reaction?

LOL.

Thinking we're playing with the boys - taking on the world ....again. Gotta admire the chutzpah.

I look forward to returning to this thread in 10 years......but i doubt that'll have any meaning.

THE ORACLE
14th Jan 2011, 21:25
Goat,

I welcome your contrary view. A primary object of all business is to make money and if you only have to cover your direct costs (labour. fuel. ANC, etc), by owning the aircraft, buildings, other systems etc, you will be able to compete better and make more money than having to pay both the fixed costs (monthly leasing rent on airframes and engines - regardless of the utilisation level, buildings, other systems, etc) AND the direct costs.

This is further complicated when you also have to pay passenger royaties to a third party. Many of the failed third party regionals in the US leased their aircraft and came unstuck when the code-share partner refused to pay sufficient and necessary royalty tax increases during successive re-negotiations.

If Virgin thought there was real money to be easily made from regional flying do you think they would have entered into such code-sharing arrangement? No, they would be doing it themselves in order to maximise profit.

Virgin is going about it this way because they know there are real risks and they want a buffer to mitigate and direct those risks away from their weak core business.

The Oracle

Xcel
14th Jan 2011, 22:13
If anyone was questioning the sim... There is already an atr sim parked next to the currently used F50 in KL. Would mean no change to current training requirements and destinations...

Skystar320
14th Jan 2011, 22:28
The Oracle, you wouldnt believe it but I would be 99% sure that they would simply be an ACMI cost and wouldnt be bothered farting around with that American based royalities crap.

Goat Whisperer
14th Jan 2011, 22:53
Unlike the US airlines, Skywest won't have a stake /risk exposure to the pax loads and yields of the DJ flights they will operate.

So long as they operate the flights on time it will be irrelevant to them how many people they carry and at what fare level; they will get paid. It's a wet lease arrangement. Not so simple as ACMI, more CM.

The west coast flights Skywest operate with the same type will be different: the risk is all Skywest's. The code share allows Virgin to offer the flights in conjunction with their own, with baggage and points benefits. Skywest sell the flight to VB who package it with a DJ flight and sell to the consumer.

wtfia
14th Jan 2011, 23:36
I think time is the motivating factor here for VB. The regional operation of these turbo props will be profitable, especially coming from operating the E170 (albeit on some different routes). If they had the time VB may have considered doing this in-house however a few factors come into play.

VB are flat out- arrival of the A330, rebranding of the product, an agreement with Air NZ and Etihad etc. How on earth would they have the available resources to get this new type up and running in the required time frame?

It has been identified that the 170 is not working and needs to be replaced, asap.

Qantas have made a move out west and this is a necessary counter. Of all current stand-alone turbo prop operators in the country able to achieve this it seems to me that Skywest would be the pick of the bunch, especially as they are based in WA.

Just my 2 cents.

Xeptu
15th Jan 2011, 00:57
WOW! which ever way you want to look at it, this is a serious high risk venture, somebody is going to get seriously spanked and somehow I doubt thats going to be Qantas. Goodluck with that!

F111
15th Jan 2011, 01:20
190s staying, with 3 more coming this year. Company is in the process of switching on the ACARS in them and a lot of money and time has been spent on this. Like it's been said before they are/will be used on the thinner routes which is where they make money. The dispatch rate is equal to the 737 now.

Skystar320
15th Jan 2011, 02:25
So long as they operate the flights on time it will be irrelevant to them how many people they carry and at what fare level; they will get paid. It's a wet lease arrangement. Not so simple as ACMI, more CM.

Skywest will provide the Aircraft, Crew [Flight deck], Maintenance and Insurance.

ACMI operator

7378FE
15th Jan 2011, 05:01
......and DJ will supply the paint job for the aircraft, that is as far as it goes in regards to who operates the aircraft.

No DJ pilots
No DJ Cabin Crew
No DJ Maintenance
the only thing DJ about this venture is the paint job, a copy of DJ's inflight mag and earning points with Velocity.

fritzandsauce
15th Jan 2011, 05:31
part of why the 170 failed is because they were fitted with 12 premium economy seats which not that many people buy.

Mr. Hat
15th Jan 2011, 07:54
Like it's been said before they are/will be used on the thinner routes which is where they make money

Which airline has an entire fleet just for a "thin route"?

Is starting to sound a bit Ansett like.

GAFA
15th Jan 2011, 08:06
Mr Hat,

Jetblue operate their E190's on routes that are to big for thr A320. Qantas have the B717's (via Cobham) for the thin routes, should I go on.

43Inches
15th Jan 2011, 10:16
Big difference was the 717 is a DC-9 made more efficient, a proven low cost airliner which is why boeing persisted with the type. The E-Jets and the like have not proven any real profitability world wide, with straight forward economic issues like fuel burn and reliability.

The main reason anyone who knew the issues in europe and the US knocked the type when VB announced its introduction.

The same will apply if they choose the wrong turboprop for the market.

alangirvan
15th Jan 2011, 22:35
Boeing persisted with 717s until about 150 of them had been built. The Embraers 170/175/190/195 have sold over 500. One European airline - FlyBe recently announced an order for up to 140 of the E-175 with 88 seats (this is a version which has not been used in Australia). In FlyBe operation, these new planes will do some jobs that their fleet of Q400s have been doing.

There are limits to how far you can compare an operation in Europe with Australian conditions, but there will be a sweet spot of about 800 kilometres where the E jets start to have advantages over the Q400.

The distances where the Q400 would be better than the ATR would probably start at about 500 km - if most of the routes that Virgin want Skywest to operate are less than 500km, the ATR has a lower acquisition cost. The ATR with 66 seats would be the ideal plane for Sydney to Canberra.

rmcdonal
15th Jan 2011, 22:51
The E170 burns 2X what a Q400 does.
It carries 4 extra passengers
It needs 1 extra Flight Attendant
And the crew are on $30-40K more.
I can see why it fails to compete with QLink.

alangirvan
15th Jan 2011, 23:40
Forget about the E170 - there are only 6 of them in the VirginBlue fleet. Any small jet - the CRJ-700 or the Fokker 70 will look bad compared with a TP of the same size.

How would the fuel burn per seat of a Q400 compare on a 1000 mile distance compared with an E190 102 seats?

Xeptu
15th Jan 2011, 23:44
I'm with the oracle. There's not much DJ in this venture, as for XR an F50 fleet replacement program is one thing, a venture of this magnitude without even a ready available market is just simply pie in the sky stuff. This is not do-able let alone likely to be successful.

I'm inclined to think it's in reality, an F50 "RPT" fleet replacement program for XR in DJ colours, with the potential to expand into DJ's market as a joint venture or code share agreement.

I'm tipping if they attempt to expand into Q-link and Rex's market on the east coast. the're going to get spanked.

c100driver
15th Jan 2011, 23:58
How would the fuel burn per seat of a Q400 compare on a 1000 mile distance compared with an E190 102 seats?

Quick fag packet calculation would have have the STD version E190 limited to about 90 seats (no baggage) for a 1000 mile operation!

campdoag
16th Jan 2011, 00:28
Carried 101 back from AYQ to SYD 2 weeks ago holding CBR +60mins as an alt

Icarus2001
16th Jan 2011, 01:18
http://www.jilske.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Size-of-Australia-Comparison-11.jpg

Does this help when we are comparing "what they do/did in Europe" with "what we do in Australia"?

Also should add, we have about 20 million people, Europe has about 700 million people.

grrowler
16th Jan 2011, 01:25
Quick fag packet calculation would have have the STD version E190 limited to about 90 seats (no baggage) for a 1000 mile operation!

VB operates all 190AR's - they can carry max payload over that distance.

Xeptu
16th Jan 2011, 01:45
An excellent perspective Icarus.
Now that the initial shock has passed and rationale is restored, the memories of such announcements from XR's corporate house come flooding back, what was it, 4 A320's by November, reality, 6 years on, one bucket of bolts.

This is not going to happen guys, disregard. delete thread.

Going Nowhere
16th Jan 2011, 02:05
Q400 won't do 1000nm leg with any sort of payload.

BNE-CNJ (Cloncurry) is 820nm and it can only do it with 74 pax when they are limited to 3kg of checked bags and TEMPO holding.

sled_driver71
16th Jan 2011, 03:27
"a venture of this magnitude without even a ready available market is just simply pie in the sky stuff."

I think u missed the point. The first 6 aircraft will be utilised on Virgins already established regional network, with the remainder to tap into new pairings in due course.

"I'm tipping if they attempt to expand into Q-link and Rex's market on the east coast. the're going to get spanked"

I don't know what to say to this, apart from it gave me a good chuckle...:ugh:


I love how most of you spell doom and gloom for both operators, and bag management for plucking this idea out of thin air. The fact is, a lot of resources are spent behind the scenes on researching the viability of these ventures. And people with far more insight than us make these decisions years in advance. To simply take one press release and plan the downfall of Australias second largest airline(?) and Western Australias longest running airline is laughable. If you guys are so knowledgeable, why aren't you running your own airline???

rmcdonal
16th Jan 2011, 04:14
How would the fuel burn per seat of a Q400 compare on a 1000 mile distance compared with an E190 102 seats?
Yes but they are not competing over that sort of range, try SYD-AY, or SYD- PMQ. These are the legs that the E170 is head on head with the Q400.

Xeptu
16th Jan 2011, 04:48
I love how most of you spell doom and gloom for both operators, and bag management for plucking this idea out of thin air. The fact is, a lot of resources are spent behind the scenes on researching the viability of these ventures. And people with far more insight than us make these decisions years in advance. To simply take one press release and plan the downfall of Australias second largest airline(?) and Western Australias longest running airline is laughable. If you guys are so knowledgeable, why aren't you running your own airline???

as laughable as that may sound to you, tell that to the former employees of Ansett, PAN-AM. Japan Airlines, Freddy Laker, need I go on.

Just because a company is big or been around a long time doesnt make it invulnerable to bad business decisions or just plain bad luck.
This is no small thing that's been announced here, goodluck to them I say, hope it works for them, will I be putting my money into it, hell no.

F111
16th Jan 2011, 05:31
It appears those who say this venture will not work are;

a) Work for REX
b) Did not get a job at Virgin Blue
c) Did not get a job with Skywest

JB and Skywest have done their homework, they know the numbers they need to make this work. Skywest have grown since the Ansett collapse, they are partly owned by a leasing company so the rate they get any aircraft at will be hard to match. If they go with the ATR it will be the deal of the century, ATR want their product in Australia in big numbers. I've had dealings in the past with two regional aircraft manufacture's and the deals they were willing to do for only 3-4 aircraft operating here was amazing.

I've flown many SYD-PMQ/ AY flights in the 170 over the last 2 years and the loads have always been between 90- 100%, so the numbers are there just the wrong type is being used. So once the turboprops arrive these numbers will remain, however the yield will be much better.

Chadzat
16th Jan 2011, 06:20
Where are the current e-jet pilot bases on the East coast?

Xeptu- You may be correct in what your saying if XR were to try to get 18 a/c up and running within 12 months, but I dont think thats their plan. In the Conference call broadcast their ceo said 6-8 by end of financial year 11/12. If they choose the right type and can get access to C & T pilots then there is no reason why that cant be achievable.

Rex will be the big loser out of any route expansion by VB/XR. If you have ever spent time with people living in towns served by a single operator, they will jump at the chance to fly with a competitor that enters their route. There would still be some routes in SE Aust that even a double daily Q400/ATR would be able to do that currently only have SF340's running on them.

Xeptu
16th Jan 2011, 07:11
30 experienced turboprop pilots then, where from, it must be different in the west, pilots falling over themselves to fly turboprops.

PammyAnderson
16th Jan 2011, 07:11
It's the old story. Pilots in Rex ATM are saying this wont work (I know about a dozen of them) and this is because they are worried. And they should be!

Rex WILL be the losers out of all this. JB knows Qlink and their regional network backwards. Sh$T he helped design it.! He knows where their strengths and weaknesses are and he will exploit them.
Boy did Qantas lose out by skipping him and going to the Leprechaun....

Anyway..
For skywest guys/gals this is good news. More guaranteed work. For Rex pilots. Dust the old Cv off. Someone will get hurt by all this and it wont be Qlink or Virgin(skywest).

F111
16th Jan 2011, 07:22
For info the 170s block fuel for SY - CB average would be around 900 -1000kg, how does that compare to the Q400?

Going Nowhere
16th Jan 2011, 07:25
700-800kg from memory.

43Inches
16th Jan 2011, 08:05
It's the old story. Pilots in Rex ATM are saying this wont work (I know about a dozen of them) and this is because they are worried. And they should be!


Why? If it works most have a new job at VB/Skywest on better T&Cs, if it doesn't status quo.

VB/Skywest pilots have the most to lose because if it doesn't work the options are a downgrade.

At the end of the day Rex and QLink pilots have nothing to lose, the routes are profitable so someone will fly them and there will always be work.

On a second note aircraft operating costs come down to many factors, you could have the best aircraft and the worst management and staff and still lose the battle and at the other end the worst aircraft and the best staff/procedures and win, who knows until the end game.

sled_driver71
16th Jan 2011, 08:17
Whatever the outcome, successful or otherwise, it will only affect XR pilots as they are the ones operating the flights. The agreement has nothing to do with VB pilots.

KRUSTY 34
16th Jan 2011, 10:16
Here's a thought, just add another dimension to it.

What will happen to the XR pilot's EBA when they convert to the new fleet type? I'm assuming the new type will initially be replacing the F50's. I agree with sled_driver71 that most likely the drivers for the new type will be the existing F50 pilots, one would hope so anyway. Obviously as/when/if the services expand Skywest will then need to recruit.

IMHO the T&C's for the F50 (as posted here) are what pilots engaged in this sort of operation should be paid in 2011. I don't think they are overpaid, but from what I have seen their level of remuneration appears fair. Probably why most people I talk to say it's a fairly happy camp, and probably why XR enjoy a relatively high retention rate.

So, with a bigger, heavier, faster aircraft.....

What will the T&C's be for the new type?

sled_driver71
27th Jan 2011, 07:51
Has a type been announced yet?

tea & bikkies
27th Jan 2011, 08:26
From what I hear it starts with a Q. Announced, well not yet.:8

SilverSleuth
27th Jan 2011, 09:28
Tea & Bikkies says: ffrom what I hear it starts with a Q. Announced, well not yet

Interesting, from what here it starts with an "A"!
Be interesting to see which it is.....

ryanboxer
27th Jan 2011, 10:02
how would we all feel if i said its not going to be an ATR or a Q400....

Chadzat
27th Jan 2011, 10:04
new build FK50 !? :D

ozbiggles
27th Jan 2011, 10:10
Antonov?...........

tea & bikkies
27th Jan 2011, 10:13
how would we all feel if i said its not going to be an ATR or a Q400....

Ok this is good, suggestions?

ryanboxer
27th Jan 2011, 10:13
just thought id put it out there see what responses we get, on another note check 1:13 on this...

YouTube - Skywest Airlines Corporate Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWA9cj2Pjks)

Icarus2001
27th Jan 2011, 10:34
Well their PR section needs a kick up the arse.

The plural of AIRCRAFT is AIRCRAFT.

Skystar320
27th Jan 2011, 10:59
Tea & Bikkies

"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed

Macchi 408
27th Jan 2011, 11:03
I'm more concerned about the converted B747 that's a 'Fokker 100'...1:17 :ugh:

topend3
27th Jan 2011, 11:26
oh what a happy company ad....doesn't say much for their loads...those 2 geeks are the only ones on the plane...and the pilots and flight attendants all look so happy and care-free....is it really like that???

Mr. Hat
27th Jan 2011, 22:59
When did fokker and boeing merge..?

XRlent320
27th Jan 2011, 23:36
Topend 3, when you consider those two passengers are staff so they're probably on an ID90 ticket, it makes the load situation even worse.

As for the happy staff, you must keep in mind that compulsary drug and alcohol testing hadn't been introduced when the video was made. Subsequently the Pilot with the long hair has left for "FlyDubai". A place where drug and alcohol consumption only results in a hanging or stoning rather than job loss. The other one had just had a Jetstar and Virgin interview and couldn't keep the smirk of his face.

Cheers

P.S. for those who can't tell, this post is tongue in cheek

Mr. Hat
28th Jan 2011, 02:22
Ha nice one 320. So are any of the crew in the video still with the company!?

So which one did he go to J* or VB?

Any word on the FK747 conversion:}?

ga_trojan
28th Jan 2011, 02:44
Oh I thought one of the pilots was just Shannon Noll doing a guest appearance for Skywest :}

White and Fluffy
14th Feb 2011, 02:49
SEEK - Regional Network Operations Liaison Manager Job in Brisbane (http://www.seek.com.au/Job/regional-network-operations-liaison-manager/in/brisbane/19020466)

So is Brisbane the first base to open, targeting Queensland, or is this position based there so its in the VB head office?

Mr.Buzzy
14th Feb 2011, 02:59
Great, I can hear the wombles already....."This is how we used to do it in Ansett"

bbbbbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Mr. Hat
14th Feb 2011, 03:47
No word on type yet? When is this meant to be up and running by?

RENURPP
17th Feb 2011, 04:51
Are virgin into time travel as well?

A real out there company.

HappyBandit
17th Feb 2011, 04:54
Hmnmmm interesting seeing a mate of mine (quiet senior within VB) informs me that he has been told ATR's....Who knows!??? I believe the announcement is to be made at the Avalon Airshow

Harry Cooper
17th Feb 2011, 11:10
Take a look at this weeks Aviation Week - it looks as though ATR are the front runner for the contract, appears as though Bombardier aren't pushing too hard as they may be concerned about their Qlink relationship. ATR have just opened a sales office in Singapore where the leasing company Aviation operates from.

ryanboxer
17th Feb 2011, 11:16
Found the aircraft safety card, what do we all think?

http://i53.tinypic.com/2144082.jpg

TWOTBAGS
17th Feb 2011, 20:25
what do we all think?

We think the left wing is out of place and it will be a bitch to land like that...... hence the safety card!:}

frigatebird
17th Feb 2011, 21:54
what do we all think?


about frikkin time some operator considered putting the latest versions of the 72 to good use in Oz..

positivegee
18th Feb 2011, 13:34
I hear the Q400's cruise at about 320-360ktas.

How fast are the ATR's? Would this be a consideration for the operator?

Coffin Corner
18th Feb 2011, 17:49
If you fly the Q400 Vmo - 10kts it cruises between 345 & 360 TAS. Dependant on ISA.

Skystar320
19th Feb 2011, 00:23
you may find out that the ATR is the winner

The Green Goblin
19th Feb 2011, 01:02
I heard they are starting off with Dornier 328s until they can get delivery slots of Q300/400s

:cool:

ozaggie
19th Feb 2011, 01:06
GippsAero should have the new Gonad out soon. Surely that would do!:E

alangirvan
19th Feb 2011, 05:13
The Q300 is out of production, unless Green Goblin has heard that they are taking delivery slots on pre-loved Q300s.

vorky
19th Feb 2011, 10:36
Found the aircraft safety card, what do we all think?

http://i53.tinypic.com/2144082.jpg
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2144082.jpg)

Considering the logo is the old one (as in out of use for about 2-3 years), I'd say not the official one.

High-Bypass
20th Feb 2011, 16:05
Skywest is not Virgin Blue. Just like QANTASLINK/COBHAM is not QANTAS.

Those wishing to join the turbo prop arm of VB, will not be employed by VB. They will be employed by Skywest.

Therefore, any 737/777/EMB-190 First officers/second officers etc... would have to resign from VB/VA and be re-employed by Skywest, unless there is an under lying agreement I have not been privy too ??

campdoag
20th Feb 2011, 19:57
any 737/777/EMB-190 First officers/second officers etc... would have to resign from VB/VA and be re-employed by Skywest

Why would they want to do that???? No offence mate but props are for boats!!!

Tidbinbilla
21st Feb 2011, 11:20
Posts were deleted because, yet once again, a reasonable thread was hijacked into yet another conditions of employment discussion.

Now let's stay on topic.

KRUSTY 34
21st Feb 2011, 12:09
Gidday TID'.

When the "Australian Pilots Time to unite" thread was started, some discussion was had regarding the deterioration of Wages and Conditions of pilots, and the effect that this would eventually have on safety. Your reason for the deletion of many of these posts were words to the effect..." this issue is too important to become another debate over T&C's" or something along those lines.

As that topic progressed it became apparent that the inexorable lowering of pilots wages and conditions was in fact relevant. Reference to the appalling working conditions of the Colgan pilots, and the need to guard against it happening here was suddenly tolerated, and in fact became a significant topic of discussion within the thread, (ie: Jetstar Cadets/overseas basings). The original posts however were not re-instated?

In my opinion, the outcome of whatever pilots are paid to operate the Skywest/DJ turbo-prop services may very well determine the stability of the operation. That's why I threw it into the mix.

It seems however you feel this is of no relevance. I appologise for the "Thread-Drift" and for what it's worth I will refrain from the offending discussion.

This post will self-destruct in 30 seconds! :sad:

positivegee
21st Feb 2011, 12:55
No offence mate but props are for boats!!!

Sorry campdoag but I had to bite...good fishing. Offence taken!

Small peni$ syndrome was my initial thought when I read your post. Do you say that in normal conversation or only when you have the protection of the internet or the radio?

Unless you are an astronaut, the aircraft you fly must have a "prop" somewhere?

Those things under the wings, the BRT's, (or Big Round Things for you) have things inside them that perform the same function as a "prop".

Please don't insult your colleagues...we all learnt to fly and it was not in a boat.:=

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 20:29
Nice is what you like.

However anyone that thinks Jet FOs are going to move over to a turboprop for a command are either smoking weed or asleep and actually dreaming whilst typing on pprune.

Command is great but it ain't the be all and end all people. I'd sooner stay an EFFO for the rest of my life than fly a turbo prop again. Thats my like I'm sure plenty of people love them and good for them.

As for the Ejet argument? My EFFO mates love it (money only complaint) and the captains say they wont be going back to the boeing. They all say they fly gentleman's hours in comparison to the 73. They fly 50 to 70 hours a month and the salaries are:

FO
Level 1 $83747
Level 2 $91360 (500 hours on a company type or a/c above 50,000kg)
Level 3 $98974 ( 2000 of the above)

CAPT
$152267

All figures as of July 2011.

The big difference I've noted in their morale is that VB have changed the rules and the FO's are free to move around to whatever type. Hence a number of Ejet guys are now speaking French and eating croissants for breakfast.

Back to the top.

speedjet
21st Feb 2011, 20:55
However anyone that thinks Jet FOs are going to move over to a turboprop for a command are either smoking weed or asleep and actually dreaming whilst typing on PPRuNe.


Currently I'm a VB EMB FO and if given the option of command on the turboprop, I'll be there if increased $$$$'s and if my current basing is on offer. Unless of course they actually do get organized with B737 FO slots avail.

Definitely awake and not smoking weed.

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 21:06
Fair enough but the vast majority wouldn't. There is always an exception.

I suspect that you would have to resign from VB as someone said here. I hope this is not the case.

As I understand it you have first rights to any new 73 slots over any externals.

fmcinop
21st Feb 2011, 21:18
As for the Ejet argument? My EFFO mates love it (money only complaint) and the captains say they wont be going back to the boeing. They all say they fly gentleman's hours in comparison to the 73. They fly 50 to 70 hours a month and the salaries are:

Your joking of course. Every captain I know who is approaching their 30 months already have the application in for a 737 slot. All the guys I know who were seconded swore they would never return to the 737 yet there they all are back on it and happy to no longer be flying the EMB. Even if the money was the same, given the choice of EMB or 737 it's a no brainer. 737 every time. The EMB will be nice once they finish building it!

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 21:21
Guess my mates just don't like the boeing! They laugh when I tell them they should be coming back (obviously I'm keen to fly with them).

Looks like they might not have the option anyway as the long term look of the Ejet isn't good. Depending on who you talk to some are adament that the 190 is here to stay for the "thinner" 73 routres. Personally I think the 170 is the writing on the wall. 170's gone 190s will follow eventually.

GAFA
21st Feb 2011, 21:59
Mr Hat, the last sentence in your last post is the reason why some Ejet FOs may have taken a command on the turboprop.

All command courses have been canned, external recruitment has stopped so the Ejet FOs can't move over to the 737, again another reason why some may have taken a turboprop command.

The turboprop flying going to Skywest is not a good thing for any FO at Virgin Blue.

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 22:28
and a merged seniority list with pac blue is?

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 22:42
I see your point but nobody kicked up a stink at the time and now it is going ahead like it or not (In fact most didn't give a shit cause it was "just a turbo prop"). Now that courses have been cancelled we should pay attention?

Unless the respective unions get a deal with the big cheese saying that the turbo prop division can have career progression within VB then it won't be an option. I haven't heard one person even talk about it. Remember though it goes both ways and we can't complain when XR people turn up on our door step knocking for a 73 job.

Personally I am in favour of it as it will quickly attract significant numbers of quality applicants for the operation AND will allow the likes of speedjet to go and do what he/she wants careerwise.

Guess my post was more about ME afterall:sad:. Hey maybe all the jet FO guys will drop everything to go and fly a prop... (maybe I'm the odd one out! Wouldn't be the first time!!)

As for merging seniority lists consider what would happen if XR's got merged into VB. There's a few boys over there I suspect would have some massive years of service.

GAFA
21st Feb 2011, 23:05
And that's the problem at VB, unless it affects the 737 flying no one seems to care. Yep it may only be turboprop flying now but whats next? Some of the routes the turboprops will operate on are currently operated by the Ejet. This means less flying for the Ejet which equals less commands. Skywest operate the F100 and the A320 and both types could take more flying away from VB. An extreme example would be for them to do all the flying in WA, which would mean the loss of the PH base.

When QF and Impulse came together it started out as a wet lease, with the 717 and 1900's operating on routes for QF, and look at what has happened 9-10 years down the track.

We has a group need to stand together and protect all flying, not just 737 flying. And I don't support the current plan for integration as it doesn't help anyone who joined in the last 4-4 years.

Mr. Hat
21st Feb 2011, 23:18
I agree with you but unless it affects the top half of the seniority list it doesn't get a mention. Have you noticed that?

Funny "representation".

As for the V Regional its way late to start trying now. Should have been done at the start.

In the meantime has one pilot been recruited? What type is it? And what is the pay deal? I'm predicting an almighty cluster.

Every captain I know who is approaching their 30 months already have the application in for a 737 slot.

Hhmm perhaps alot reevaluated when a)the 170s were put for sale and b)vregional was announced.

GAFA
22nd Feb 2011, 00:37
Sure have, they are all focused on the 777 and A330. Suddenly the company comes out and announces a 10 year agreement with Skywest for turboprops with no consultation from any of the pilot groups on the effect this would have.

It's great for Skywest and they do have a good EBA which is a start. Perhaps the unions need to look at a plan that should the 190s go and there are no positions within VB or V for the Ejet pilots then they will be offered positions at Skywest, which would be better than no job at all. All of this needs to be looked at now rather than when it happens, after all look at what happened in 08 /09.

puff
22nd Feb 2011, 01:06
Are we now heading towards the US system of regional airline flying with the 'group' colours yet the aircraft are operated by another contract company.

Watch for a B scale !

KRUSTY 34
22nd Feb 2011, 01:09
Carefull with the T&C talk boys!

Soory TID :E

newsensation
22nd Feb 2011, 01:46
And guess who represents Skywest pilots the TWU...

Kenny
22nd Feb 2011, 02:38
Are we now heading towards the US system of regional airline flying with the 'group' colours yet the aircraft are operated by another contract company

If we do, we'll only have ourselves to blame. I've just come from that and I've never seen so much envy, backstabbing and jealousy over who gets what flying and how much closer you'll be to command.

A very wise, crusty old Captain once told me; There's only 3 things to care about in this game: The pay in your pocket, your days off and your quality of life. Once the door is closed it's just an aluminium tube with wings.

GAFA
22nd Feb 2011, 03:01
Well Skywest could have a supply of pilots ready to go on the east coast if tomorrows numbers are bad.

teggun
22nd Feb 2011, 04:58
What numbers are announced tomorrow?

Mr. Hat
22nd Feb 2011, 06:32
Apparently the annual financial report. QF reported a cracking 500 mil. Wouldn't expect that from VB.

All must remember that there has been significant and will be significant expenditure during the rebranding.

ernestkgann
22nd Feb 2011, 07:24
....and losses from VB due leisure market, booking system disruptions and the floods.

The Bunglerat
22nd Feb 2011, 08:55
All must remember that there has been significant and will be significant expenditure during the rebranding.

...And let's be grateful for this fact. Whilst I certainly do not advocate frivolous spending when times are tough, unlike our former "illustrious" leader, JB's not afraid to spend money in order to make money. And that's exactly what needs to happen right now if we're going to get it right in the long run.

CatTower
22nd Feb 2011, 12:10
Puff, you may want to do a search on a new executive board member, SD, for info on an indication on new direction of VB flying. The Skywest deal was a good indication.

sinala1
22nd Feb 2011, 22:06
Article here (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/virgin-blue-reports-big-drop-in-first-half-net-profit-on-weak-leisure-market/story-e6freonx-1226010551471)

Mr Borghetti said Virgin Blue would lease ATR turboprop aircraft as part of its partnership with Skywest to fly to regional routes, announced last month.

TBM-Legend
23rd Feb 2011, 00:38
Great choice with fuel on the rise and set to stay high....

thanks Col. Ghadafy

Mr. Hat
23rd Feb 2011, 01:13
GAFA and Speedjet,

You now have it in writing.

In the Financial report the words are "ATR to replace E170". So you are correct those VB commands have been given to Skywest. It will be up to you to get on the dog and bone to AFAP and VIPA to allow VB interested pilots like speedjet the opportunity to apply and hold their VB seniority number.

Jesus on the next page is a table comparing the 170 to the ATR. Makes Godfrey look like an even bigger goose. There is no comparison.

GAFA
23rd Feb 2011, 01:37
From Flightglobal;

Virgin Blue today announced an order for up to 18 ATR72 aircraft, comprising both the -500 and -600 variants.

The first four ATR72 aircraft will be delivered in the middle of this year with another four to arrive next year. It is not clear yet how many of the 18 aircraft are firm orders, or how the order will be broken down by variant.

Virgin Blue will wetlease the aircraft from West Australia operator SkyWest under an agreement announced last month.

Skywest in turn will lease the aircraft from leasing company Avation with an initial term of ten years.

"The ATR will form the foundation of our regional network plans, with the first six ATRs replacing our current Embraer E170 fleet and the additional aircraft flying to new regional destinations," chief executive John Borghetti says.

"The ATR is the best aircraft to operate on regional routes throughout Australia," he adds.

Borghetti says the ATR72 burns one-third less fuel than the E170. He adds that it also burns 20-30% less than its competing aircraft, a statement likely in reference to the Bombardier Dash 8-400 aircraft that QantasLink operates on its regional routes.

The carrier last August announced it was removing its six E170s as the aircraft was not a right fit for its network. It expects to make announcements in the near future about the E170 fleet's removal.

Yep Mr Hat, the unions let the staff down on this one. I've raised this so many times since the announcements and no one cared becuase it was turboprop flying.

All the best for Skywest, I like the choice of the ATR.

Capt Chambo
23rd Feb 2011, 02:07
From the ASX website.

Scroll down to ".....announcements" and open the 35 page .pdf.

(It may require you to agree to some terms and conditions but it's otherwise free)

VIRGIN BLUE HOLDINGS LIMITED (VBA) - ASX Listed Company Information Fact Sheet (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/research/companyInfo.do?by=asxCode&asxCode=VBA)

KRUSTY 34
23rd Feb 2011, 09:19
I wonder if they have worked out where they are going to park them during embarkation and disembarkation?

Global Xpress
23rd Feb 2011, 09:26
At an airport I assume :p

I get your point though Krusty. Sydney is an obvoius cluster phuck and is only getting worse. DOM 6 then a rather long bus ride.

Normasars
23rd Feb 2011, 09:27
Quite easy Krusty.

SY
CB
ML
WG
AY
PMQ
CH
MIA
BN
EML
MK
RK
GLA
TV
CS

And anywhere else QLINK are making a killing.

KittyBlue
23rd Feb 2011, 09:28
Krusty, wouldnt it be just as it would for a 737/Ejet, just making sure the gates are available or possible share the REX stands in SYD,MEL,ADL?

Skystar320
23rd Feb 2011, 09:33
Oh and I was right! Thankyou come again

Never doubt Skystar320

Mr. Hat
23rd Feb 2011, 09:35
I suspect the ATR is going to make itself a right pain in the arse to Qlink and REX.

I predicted the Ejet would do the same years ago. How I was wrong:sad:. The only pain was felt by Virgin and the shareholder:uhoh:.

GAFA how many commands disappeared off the 170? Would be interesting to know.

Now the biggest question is in the XR court:

What is the package? Is it XR EBA or separate? F50 conditions or less or more?

You'd have to say the timing of the REX EBA is uncanny isn't KRUSTY? Very very good timing for you guys. Now all at once say "Thank you John"!

Well done Skystar:D. I reckon I'm wrong about 80% of the time:{!! Oh well keeps some entertained. Even the mods get a laugh out of me sometimes :p.

KittyBlue
23rd Feb 2011, 09:46
Hat, as for both could fly either e70/90 wouldnt have DJ based their command on E90's only? Naturally people are going to leave, would you think the total commands would have been lost?

Mr. Hat
23rd Feb 2011, 09:52
Sorry need to rephrase.

How many E170s are going and how many commands does that equal? Just out of interest. Horse has bolted, the milk has been spilt...

I imagine there is a surplus of Ejet captains given the departure of the 170s. It has to be absorbed somewhere so some senior EFFO will be waiting longer as a result..

Skystar320
23rd Feb 2011, 10:22
hmmm nice media getting it wrong:

"was the 68-seat ATR-500 and ATR-600 turboprop aircraft"

1a sound asleep
23rd Feb 2011, 13:00
HTF did the DJ board approve the E170 to begin with?

puff
23rd Feb 2011, 15:37
ATR is an interesting choice - be interesting to see if they go for the optional APUs or stick with the prop brake 'hotel' system.

Speed of the ATR certainly might be an issue in QLD on routes such as BNE-LRE thats for sure, enjoy your wider cabin because you'll be sitting in it longer ! Be interesting to see how they market against QFlink as well, with things like free grog on PM flights on QFlink, and the 'fastest' aircraft mantle that QFlink will be able to throw at them. You would have thought taking Q400s and trying to entice Qflink drivers over with more money to create a disturbance to QFlink by 'poaching' their pilots would have been an interesting ploy as well. Some of this still may go on - but would have been easier with ready trained and endorsed and somewhat unhappy Q400 guys sitting at QFlink.

Parking certainly will become interesting in BNE especially, QF spent a lot upgrading the regional apron, the old Ansett apron has been turned into 2 parking bays for E-Jets, certainly not a lot of room around the place, nor a 'regional' area anymore in the old gate 49 area, also an area where QF has spent a lot of money down at their end of the terminal.

1a - DJ really seemed to believe that passengers would flock to a 'jet' if it was being flown against a prop, sadly I think they failed to realise that most people have NO IDEA of the difference between a Q400 or a E-Jet, and they simply don't care if it results in them saving $2 on the fare. Even chockers the E-Jet wouldn't be making anything like the money a 3/4 full Q400 would be making - sadly DJ didn't learn from the Ansett disaster that was the Kendell CRJ-200s, both just not suitable for Australia, which the history books will now show.

frigatebird
23rd Feb 2011, 16:34
Preferred the wider cabin and slower speed of the 42 (or 72), and the smoother landings of the trailing arm undercarriage, - to the 360 knot speed and three abreast tube of the Saab 2000 with its stiff oleos, on long Pacific routes over a dozen years ago. With the increased capability of the 72-600 s to deliver a smoother ride with better navigation and weather avoidance displays, the pax will get to love them. Just have the girls fuss over them a little more.

Meeb
23rd Feb 2011, 17:47
to deliver a smoother ride

You surely are having a laugh, they are noisy, crampted and slow... yeah a good choice right enough.... oh and they are french.... nuff said. :mad:

Mark my words, it will end in tears... :ugh:

KittyBlue
23rd Feb 2011, 18:54
the ejets were based on three sets of crew per an aircraft. Two sets operating per a day.

KRUSTY 34
23rd Feb 2011, 19:35
6 drivers per aircraft!

That's efficient Kitty'

Mr. Hat
23rd Feb 2011, 19:52
I bloodywell hope its got an APU! I mean seriously were in 2011.

You would have thought taking Q400s and trying to entice Qflink drivers over with more money to create a disturbance to QFlink by 'poaching' their pilots

Puff they can't base purchasing a type on stealing pilots. Nor can they base their recruitment practices on hurting the opposition. I agree its a great idea but there would be a lot more to consider I'm sure.

DJ really seemed to believe that passengers would flock to a 'jet' if it was being flown against a prop, sadly I think they failed to realise that most people have NO IDEA of the difference between a Q400 or a E-Jet,

Yep a Godfrey decision along with live to air, premium economy, 777's with small cargo doors, Navitaire and who know what else. Kudos for starting it and getting it up and running but at the 4 year mark it was time to go. I'm sure there were many within that were pulling their hair out at the time. Having said all that the 777's are getting closer to breaking even and might one day be the big earner for the group.

I think the public do prefer a jet thats pretty obvious. What is more obvious looking at the 170 ATR comparison is that the dollars just don't add up on those routes.

One has to ask: If the Ejets were never bought in the first place would Borghetti be seeking out the E190 or any type to be placed on the "thinner" 737 routes today? Somehow I don't think so. I think the E190s are still here because to remove them would be too hard at this point. I suspect the returning Captains mentioned a few posts ago realise this and are heading back to the 73 while they can.

Good luck to the XR guys and those wanting to fly the ATR.

HomeJames
23rd Feb 2011, 20:25
So, I guess the big question is how many of the XR ladies and gents will move to the east coast?

There really aren't that many ATR type rated pilots around one would have thought... with the exception of across the ditch in NZ or the green pants brigade

Does anyone in the know have pertinent information on recruiting timetables and total crew required.

Straight home and don't spare the horses

TBM-Legend
23rd Feb 2011, 20:59
ATR's TVL based initially...

43Inches
23rd Feb 2011, 21:47
Preferred the wider cabin and slower speed of the 42 (or 72), and the smoother landings of the trailing arm undercarriage, - to the 360 knot speed and three abreast tube of the Saab 2000 with its stiff oleos, on long Pacific routes over a dozen years ago. With the increased capability of the 72-600 s to deliver a smoother ride with better navigation and weather avoidance displays, the pax will get to love them. Just have the girls fuss over them a little more.
The SAAB 2000 has a seat pitch of 32 inch compared to a maximum of 31 inch in the 68 seater ATR 72, the 72-74 seat version is 29 inch. Although the cabin is slightly narrower on the 2000 it is only 3 abreast so the actual seat width on the 2000 is 60cm compared to 52cm on the ATR. With more leg room and arm room and a cruise speed 90kts faster (360kt S2000 and 270kt ATR 72) I know which is more comfortable. Additionally the 2000 climbs to FL300 in no time, the ATR takes forever to achieve FL200, this alone without fancy computers will ensure most weather is avoided much like a jet.

I assume the pacific routes were with Air Marshal Island when they had the sole 2000?

With regard to vs Q400 the only real advantage is fuel burn and possibly a little quieter. The seat width difference is small, seat pitch is 31 inch on the QF Q400. Again the Q400 quickly gets to FL200 plus which gets you clear of most of the weather in Eastern Australia. It will be interesting to see if VB opt for the IFE or maybe a business type seat up front.

Mr. Hat
23rd Feb 2011, 22:08
Thought it was BNE.

The again then 330 started in MEL and ended up in SYD. Thats aviation for you.

6 crews per frame i think it is.

6 x 4 = 24 or 32 (8)
6 x 18 = 108 or 144 (8)

The SAAB 2000 is no longer in production. Seems some good machines are no longer produced:
F100
SAAB2000
EMB Brasilia

Most of the weather is at those levels. ATR/SAAB/Q400 none of them cruise at Braz levels!

tiger19
23rd Feb 2011, 22:13
I noticed Toll (Jetcraft) were looking for a new CP a month back. Is Andre retiring or is he taking his ATR CP qualifications elsewhere????

frigatebird
23rd Feb 2011, 22:17
oh and they are french.... nuff said. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Get over it..! Alba sore

KRUSTY 34
23rd Feb 2011, 22:29
Yes Vale the SAAB 2000.

Drop down masks in the cabin allow it to cruise above FL250 in RPT, and achieve that with little effort also. Mighty aeroplane born at the wrong time. Ideal today, but probably with a fleet mix of the drawing board bound SAAB 340C (Standard SAAB 340 airframe with all the 2000 gear and performance), and common crew endorsement.

I know that REX have approached SAAB to look at starting the line again, but as time draws on, it seems this will be very unlikely. Pity!

Welcome back Kitty'. See you're still doing your homework. :confused:

Spinnerhead
24th Feb 2011, 03:19
Most of the weather is at those levels. ATR/SAAB/Q400 none of them cruise at Braz levels!


Sorry dude but without drop downs, a Braz is limited to 25k. The Q400 gets there faster and goes a lot faster when it gets there.

If V want to compete against the Q400, then they will need Q400's!

HurryUp&Retire
24th Feb 2011, 03:24
Q400 is faster than 72-500, but my understanding is that some of the ATR's will be -500 and -600. The -600 is a different story performance wise, suppose to have just as good or better performance as a DH4

Captahab
24th Feb 2011, 03:41
If V want to compete against the Q400, then they will need Q400's!


That is assuming that the Q400 operator runs the thing on book power settings, very few if any do, doesn't really say a lot about its efficiency if they have to retard the thing to be efficient.

43Inches
24th Feb 2011, 03:50
Q400 is faster than 72-500, but my understanding is that some of the ATR's will be -500 and -600. The -600 is a different story performance wise, suppose to have just as good or better performance as a DH4
New ATR-600 and -500 have the PW127M which has increased power available for take-off and max continuous operation, not for cruise. The ATR 72-600 will have the same cruise performance as the -500 but better hot and high uplift capability and about another 1000ft single engine altitude capability. I can not see how the same aircraft with the same cruise power available would be any faster, the -500 being a 270kt aircraft. The main difference between the -600 and -500 is increased MTOW (23000kg) and MZFW (21000kg), a new electronic "paperless" flight deck and cabin inporvements.

I'm sure if the 72-600 could achieve or exceed Q400 performance ATR would paste it all over their advertising.


Sorry dude but without drop downs, a Braz is limited to 25k.


The braz has drop downs.


That is assuming that the Q400 operator runs the thing on book power settings, very few if any do, doesn't really say a lot about its efficiency if they have to retard the thing to be efficient.


Even at reduced settings they still cruise at 320kts and can high speed climb at 240kts.

bubble.head
24th Feb 2011, 03:54
Does anyone know whether the ATR suffers from the reduced speed of 245 below 8000ft?

GAFA
24th Feb 2011, 04:31
Remember Virgin will still have the 190's for use on the longer sectors to go against the Q400. The ATR will be used on sectors up to 250 nm, were the the time difference between it's TAS of 270 kts and the Q400 of 300- 320 kts will be sweet FA however the fuel burn will be less on the ATR.

Latest from Flightglobal (my bolding);

Virgin Blue expects to take delivery of its new ATR72 turboprops from May, with the -500 variant first to join the fleet.

The carrier will have four of the type by end-July. It announced earlier today an order for up to 18 ATR72s, comprising both the -500 and -600 variants.

"We plan to have at least eight - at least eight - within the next 16 months," says chief executive John Borghetti.

ATR72-600 variants will replace the -500s from next February, he adds, declining to specify why the replacement will occur.It is not clear yet how many of the 18 aircraft are firm orders, and if future deliveries beyond next year will only be for the -600 variant.

"The ATR will form the foundation of our regional network plans, with the first six ATRs replacing our current Embraer E170 fleet and the additional aircraft flying to new regional destinations," Borghetti says.

Virgin Blue's seating configuration has not been announced but the -500 typically seats 68-72 passengers and the -600 up to 74 passengers.

The airline will wet-lease the aircraft from West Australia operator SkyWest under an agreement announced last month.

Skywest in turn will lease the aircraft from leasing company Avation with an initial term of ten years.

"The ATR is the best aircraft to operate on regional routes throughout Australia," Borghetti says. He adds that it burns one-third less fuel than the E170 and 20% to 30% less than its equivalent competitor, a statement likely in reference to the Bombardier Dash 8-400 aircraft that QantasLink operates on its regional routes.

"Not only is it compelling from an economics point of view, it's compelling from a customer perspective," Borghetti says. "It has a wider aisle and wider cabin than other aircraft we were looking at."

The carrier last August announced it was removing its six E170s as the aircraft was not a right fit for its network. It expects to make announcements in the near future about the E170 fleet's removal.

As most thought the -500 is only a stop-gap aircraft until the -600 is ready. Based on what they say above the first 4 aircraft will be in place by the time the last 170 leaves (from what I've been told). It would be mean as each of the new 190's (2 more to come) and the ATR's arrive another 170 will be removed ie 1 for 1 replacement.

Rural
24th Feb 2011, 08:28
Will be interesting too watch how the ATR transitions into the current E-170 flying. I wonder if it will mean a strait transition from E-170 to ATR or if some difficult decisions / announcments will be made along the way.

Time will tell and with the DJ Half Yearly materials saying that 3 x 170 will be exited before the end of this FY, we don't have long to wait.