View Full Version : Hi tech flight planning
PompeyPaul
9th Jan 2011, 19:05
Whilst I still plog all routes and calculate each leg on my calculator (and whizz wheel sometimes) I think it's time to move into the 20th century.
I'd really like a system that allowed me to click the points I want on a computer, type in the wind, and then print out a plog all calculated for me. If I could then download that route into a GPS and see it in flight that would be great.
I'd also like to be able to save / load my favourite routes.
So, reading through these pages it seems like navbox is the current software package of choice. Is it possible to download it into a portable GPS ? If so, which GPS do I need to buy to make it so ?
How do I move into the modern, or near modern, age ?
Chinesespaceman
9th Jan 2011, 19:17
Hi Paul,
I'm using SkyDemon and would suggest that you download the trial version (30 days) before parting with cash. If I plan the flight on the PC it gives me all the current weather and notams. I then print the plog which gives me all en-route frequencies etc sync to the SD card and pop that in the portable device. It's as easy as that.
I happen to use my NATS Air Aware hardware and swap SD cards between Sky Demon and Air Aware depending on my needs.
Happy Hunting
Try PocketFMS. Navbox is good, but PFMS does a lot more. There is a 30 day free trial you can download.
Rod1
Jan Olieslagers
9th Jan 2011, 19:42
The first part I do in an Excel spreadsheet - a first tab-page doing the calculations, finding waypoints in a second. I enter desired waypoints in the first screen, add wind dir/spd, TAS, ETD, and presto there come the compass settings, ground speed, ETE, ETA. What more could you wish?
I have also concocted a procedure to copy the same data into my homebrew GPS, but found it less cumbersome to create the "planned route" manually.
172driver
9th Jan 2011, 20:06
Arrrgggghhhhhh.....Pompey is back ;)
Have you looked at this (http://www.goflying.org/) ?
This has been done to death. There are various flight planning programs. The oldest VFR / Europe one is Navbox and the oldest more fancy VFR/IFR one is Jeppesen Flitestar. A more recent VFR prog with some European coverage is Skydemon. Then there are "GPS moving map" programs which have planning capability e.g. PocketFMS.
Simple laptop-based flight planning has been around before I started flying 10-11 years ago. No serious pilot has been using the slide rule etc for that time and I certainly don't.
Personally, what matters to be in a VFR prog is a good database where I can click on an airport and see the phone/fax # etc. I don't think anything beats Navbox on this, dated though it is now. IFR (airways) has different requirements.
Jan Olieslagers
9th Jan 2011, 20:32
IO540, not wanting to disagree, but allow me to insist - as you hinted - that a firm distinction should be made between the program on the one hand and the data it uses on the other. Having no experience with any of the commercial offerings, I can well imagine a great piece of software making a brilliant presentation of crappy data - or highly accurate data presented in a bewildering fashion.
This is one of my reasons for doing it all homebrew - if things go wrong, I'll know whom to blame, and I stand a fair chance of knowing WHY and WHAT went wrong. And it makes a good reminder to check all data against official sources - as we all must, anyhow.
Hmmmmm.
It is easy to write a flight planning prog which blows everything out there right out of the water.
It is the data which is the problem, or if you like how will you populate the database :) Damn nearly everything in Europe is copyright. Some things can be done by a private individual (where copyright is not an issue ;) ) but if you want something for the great unwashed it has to be legit.
Accuracy is a separate matter. Most of the data comes from the same few databases... the national AIPs are not for the most part machine readable, so people tend to lift stuff from other programs.
I have written lots on this topic previously, however.
PompeyPaul
9th Jan 2011, 20:40
Yes i am back!!!!!
Thanks for all of the replies. Lots to check out there.
2high2fastagain
9th Jan 2011, 21:35
Skydemon - Fantastic piece of software in my view. Try the 30 day trial as Chinese suggests. I've given up with my clever spreadsheets and use it all the time.
Welcome to SkyDemon, VFR Flight Planning Software and GPS Navigation Devices (http://www.skydemon.aero)
stickandrudderman
9th Jan 2011, 22:33
IO540, not wanting to disagree, but allow me to insist - as you hinted - that a firm distinction should be made between the program on the one hand and the data it uses on the other. Having no experience with any of the commercial offerings, I can well imagine a great piece of software making a brilliant presentation of crappy data - or highly accurate data presented in a bewildering fashion.
This is one of my reasons for doing it all homebrew - if things go wrong, I'll know whom to blame, and I stand a fair chance of knowing WHY and WHAT went wrong. And it makes a good reminder to check all data against official sources - as we all must, anyhow.
The OP wants a solution and all you offer him is a problem. If he confesses to having to be dragged into the modern era (and I sympathise with him) what chance has he got of having sufficient knowledge, experience and confidence to write his own spread sheet and then rely on the resultant computations to plan his flight?:ugh:
FlightplanPro (http://www.flightplanpro.eu/) is the canonical choice for European IFR.
For European and worldwide VFR, the software I choose is Navigation (http://francois.fouchet.free.fr/Navigation/Aide/Navigation.htm) (pronounced /na.vi.ga.sjɔ̃/, i.e., in French). It is almost unheard of in the English-speaking world, although the programme itself is translated (http://francois.fouchet.free.fr/English.htm). Interestingly, it is the only no-charge alternative I know of that follows the 28-day AIRAC cycle for Europe, so the official data (VFR and IFR) is always current.
HTH
Jan Olieslagers
10th Jan 2011, 07:06
The OP wants a solution and all you offer him is a problem. If he confesses to having to be dragged into the modern era (and I sympathise with him) what chance has he got of having sufficient knowledge, experience and confidence to write his own spread sheet and then rely on the resultant computations to plan his flight?:ugh:
Well, even if he is not an accomplished spreadsheet guru, neither am I... But there are examples to be found at the www. Failing all else, and IF o/p were interested in doing it my way, he might have the courage to ask for a copy of mine. Can't see how you can qualify that as offering a problem. Now stop hurting that wall - walls are for slamming aircraft into, not one's head.
IO540
10th Jan 2011, 07:18
For European and worldwide VFR, the software I choose is Navigation (http://francois.fouchet.free.fr/Navigation/Aide/Navigation.htm) (pronounced /na.vi.ga.sjɔ̃/, i.e., in French). It is almost unheard of in the English-speaking world, although the programme itself is translated (http://francois.fouchet.free.fr/English.htm). Interestingly, it is the only no-charge alternative I know of that follows the 28-day AIRAC cycle for Europe, so the official data (VFR and IFR) is always current.
That's an interesting product, LH2, from what I can see on a quick look.
Where do they get the data from, and what geographical area is covered?
I think nowadays one can get most if not all of the nav and airspace data for Europe from Eurocontrol, under a B2B contract. But the cost is nontrivial - a few k a year just to get started, AFAIK. Somebody has to pay for this.
172driver
10th Jan 2011, 08:34
Where do they get the data from, and what geographical area is covered?
Well, it says on their site that they come from EuroControl and they stress these are copyright protected. Must have found a - legit? - way to get at them.
Sounds interesting, will need to look at that in more detail.
stickandrudderman
10th Jan 2011, 16:06
Now stop hurting that wall - walls are for slamming aircraft into, not one's head.
No sense=no feeling!:)
IO540
10th Jan 2011, 16:18
Eurocontrol have been flogging B2B access to their database for some years.
They have also started offering (also via B2B) a route generation facility. It isn't great and often fails totally, and the whole flight is developed and validated at just one flight level, but it's a start. It must have taken a lot of banging heads together at Brussels to open this one up...
What you don't get from anywhere, AFAIK, in a machine readable form, is the useful VFR pilot stuff like working phone/fax numbers for airports, gold plated reliable PPR/PNR information, etc. That is only in the AIPs (notams occassionally) and the only way to populate a flight planning prog database with this stuff is the hard way (swipe/copy/paste). And anyway a lot of this kind of AIP data is garbage, especially in southern Europe, but that is just tough because nobody is going to be calling and verifying phone numbers...
Whether this matters depends on where you fly. For intra-UK flying and perhaps L2K sometimes, you only need a simple VFR prog, and Pooleys.
What you don't get from anywhere, AFAIK, in a machine readable form, is the useful VFR pilot stuff like working phone/fax numbers for airports, gold plated reliable PPR/PNR information, etc. That is only in the AIPs (notams occassionally) and the only way to populate a flight planning prog database with this stuff is the hard way (swipe/copy/paste).
Navigation gets around that by offering to download to your computer the relevant pages from the AD section of the AIP, and checking for updates. I'm not sure if this works for the whole of Europe, but seems a simple and decent enough solution--also avoids corruption due to transcription errors.
blueandwhite
10th Jan 2011, 19:48
I have tried several, navbox, jepperson, skydemon etc.
Looked at several others.
Since trying Skydemon I have had no interest in others. It does what I need. Clik on routes, gets weather, gets Notams etc etc. It is one of the best programs I have ever used.:D:D:D
The only other piece of software I have been so impressed with is CATIA. ;)
PompeyPaul
10th Jan 2011, 20:11
I've tried the SkyDemon demo and it seems exactly what I was looking for. Thanks guys.
late-joiner
11th Jan 2011, 08:16
I have only done about 20 hours since recently completing my PPL. Although I have little to compare it to, I find Sky Demon excellent for planning flights, printing kneeboard logs, having in the cockpit on my Fujitsu N560 handheld and then downloading the track onto my computer afterwards to see where I went. What concerns me a bit is that it is so easy to put all your trust in it and get out of practice calculating headings and RNAV values, doing COG and fuel calcs manually. So far it is money well spent for me.