Touch and goes during solo flight (student pilot in USA)

[ifresh21]

Hi,

On my first solo flight my instructor told me that I have to do Stop and Gos (taxi off runway and taxi back to beginning of runway and take off again) rather than touch and goes. He said that it is technically against the rules to do touch and go during solo - I didn't ask any questions at the time.

I am 16. I asked a friend who did his solo at the same age (last year) and he said that he did touch and goes.

Has anyone heard of this or read regulations concerning this issue?

Thank you in advance!

[mcgoo]

Its not against the rules legally but may be against the school rules as published in the flying order book, a lot of schools in the US do this as there has been a number of accidents involving students doing touch and gos and not retracting the flaps and stalling etc

[BackPacker]

My first solo was stop-taxiback-go too. I don't know if I was specifically cleared to do touch-and-goes later on during my solo period, but I remember doing them solo at some point in time without any objection from my instructor.

What's probably a more relevant question: Once you've gone solo, why would you want to do more touch-and-goes so desperately? You've proven that you can take-off and land, otherwise your instructor wouldn't have sent you solo. I know you've got to fly 10 hours solo somehow and doing touch-and-goes is a nice break from boring holes in the sky but other than that...? It's not like the perfect touch-and-go is an exam requirement.

And there's another trap to fall into. If you do too many touch-and-goes, you might start doing them on auto. Particularly retracting the flaps before adding power. If you ever need to do a go-around, this automatic behaviour can be deadly. In this respect I think go-arounds should be practiced at least as often as touch-and-goes but somehow they weren't when I did my training. I did maybe three go-arounds altogether during that period.

[Pace]

Touch and goes are vital and frankly a pilot who isnt up to having to go around safely from a low pass or touch and go shouldnt be considered for first solo.

He may have to do just that on his first solo either through a misjudged or heavy landing or blockage on the runway!

If the guy/gal isnt up to touch and goes then dont go SOLO because your not ready.

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

One place had a "no solo student touch-and-goes on such-and-such a runway" rule because too many people had run off the end of it. They were allowed on the long runway.

[172_driver]

First solo touch & goes were banned at our school after a student went off the runway, sideways, ended up on the parallel taxiway facing 90 deg off. They never stop to amaze you, don't they?

Honestly, I don't know how the hell it happened, or if it were grounds for banning in altogether, but it's not up to me.

[Cows getting bigger]

Pace, I disagree. In most training aircraft the process of a T&G is different to a go around (which may occur after the 'touch'). A T&G involves reconfiguring before getting airborne which then brings the risk of losing directional control on the ground; it is a successful landing followed by a successful take-off. This requires an extra decision cycle to be followed "Do I have enough time to get this done?" A go-around involves reconfiguring once airborne and there is no real decision to be made.

All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.

[BackPacker]

A go-around involves reconfiguring once airborne

"...while airborne..." I'd say

[Pilot DAR]

An inexperienced pilot should not be prompted to attempt things while solo, which have not neen trained dual first, and been accomplished with some demonstrated skill.

That said, runway length decision making is rather important as a skill too. If a runway is so short that in a given type, a touch and go is inadvisable, it is probably a poor choice as a training or initial solo runway anyway.

Prior to solo, a student pilot's skills should be sufficient that they can manage the reconfiguring task (aircraft design requirements include provisions to minimize errors in doing this). The student should also have the skill required to safely handle accidently coming airborne with full flaps extended. This is safely managed by a compotent pilot in all certified aircraft types commonly used for training. It's really nothing different from going around from a recovered bounch, and that's being trained... right?

Students should be being trained to make good go-no go decisions on the runway, touch and goes are a part of that training, and should be practiced on runways of suitable dimension. The odd time a pilot must recognize a runway which may be unsuitable for a "go" in any situation in that type. That should prompt an altered plan for landing, and that runway is not a solo training runway anyway....

[Pace]

I do not know if the changes in training from the days when I learnt to fly are a reflection of our NO risk society?

now we dont seem to train pilots to handle aircraft anymore but to purely drive them and to avoid any situation which might require skill.

Fully developed stalls in all configurations in singles and twins? Fully developed spins? Spiral dives etc.

Now it appears to be all to do with recovery at the incipient stage.
Unless of course your lucky enough to get in with one of the older old way type instructors.

If you cannot handle a touch and go on a suitable runway then you should not be flying solo as you cannot handle the aircraft and that is the biggest risk of all. Russian Roulette!!!

Pace

[172driver]

I vaguely recall my very first solo was stop and backtaxi also, but thereafter I did loads of T&Gs. And yes, I certainly trained for them with my instructor prior to going solo.

What did happen on my first solo was a go-around. I came in too high and too fast, didn't like the picture out front and decided I'll try this again. Worked.

Interesting thoughts from Pace. While I didn't do spins, we certainly did fully developed stalls. And spiral dives, recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (and once at night), emergency descents, etc. All that was in the US in the 90s.

[W2k]

Having completed my PPL(A) in june '10 I guess I qualify as a "modern" student. Did all training on PA28.

Did:
* Fully developed stall (in clean/landing cfg)
* Recovery from unusual attitudes (also in IMC)
* Go-arounds

Didn't:
* Touch and go on first solo
* Spin (slightly pointless in a PA28?)

[S-Works]

Generally speaking when sending someone for their FIRST solo we try to make sure they are fully prepared but also make the experience as stress free as possible. Think back to your own first solos, your hearts were beating you were excited.

Doing full stops on the first solo is a good philosophy and one that I still prescribe to. It gives you the opportunity to double check that the aircraft is in the right configuration and everything is prepared.

On subsequent solos I then used to increase the skills that were included.

Would I send someone solo who could not do a touch and go? No of course I would not. But that does not mean that they have to do them.

Flight training is about progression, not getting everything perfect on day one. Can I respectfully suggest that those who have no experience of flight training refrain from espousing opinion as if it is fact.

There are a lot of reasons that we do things in certain ways when teaching. It has worked just fine for many decades.

[Pace]

Bose

You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.

Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.

The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.

He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?

All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.

Pace

[Cows getting bigger]

Pace, you're reading what you want. Read my quote again. Does it 'indicate that some are sent first solo without those skills'?

I thought not. :ugh:

My baseline personal criteria are that a first and second solo should always be go-arounds or landings, backtrack, take-off. After that, we will develop the confidence to do T&Gs. If we have been able to do T&Gs during cct training then fine, things will progress swimmingly. If students haven't done T&Gs (which I accept would be an unusual scenario), I'm not going to let the fact get in the way of sending him/her solo as we will have already encompassed the whole G/A scenario.

As for all your other stuff about spins, spiral dives etc, I would say you are being rather disingenuous. Do instructors teach to the minimum requirement or do they actually teach way beyond that to include stalls beyond incipient, spins etc? My overwhelming experience is the latter.

[CanAmdelta1]

I was taught full stalls in power on power off, clean config.,landing config., climbing turns etc. Also spins, spirals, touch and goes, go arounds, full stop landings, low and overs, orbiting overhead and runway changes prior to solo.

Then all solo circuits were followed by full stop landings and reconfigure prior to taking off again. "You learn more doing full stops than touch and goes" said my instructor.

Touch and go/go around practice paid off at a rural aerodome when a coyote ran on the runway just prior to wheels down and another time when a 172 crossed the hold short line, entered the r/w and started his take off roll while I was less than 150 ft on short final.

Be patient, study hard learn quickly and enjoy the confidence while your instructor is in the right seat. He won't be there when the "ship hits the sand" the first time.

[HighFlyer75]

I recently completed my PPL in Florida and all of my solo circuits were full stop and taxi back. I was told that this was a school policy due to the danger of students doing touch and gos and having/causing an accident. During dual flights and during my skills test it was mostly touch and gos though.

As a contrast, I also did training in Australia where solo touch and gos were the norm. This was on a significantly smaller runway with much more potential for something to go wrong in my opinion as runway could run out fast if you landed long. Still, at no point did I ever feel unsafe and I personally think non-first solo students should be allowed to practice touch and gos.

[Pace]

I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.

CowsGettingBigger

Sorry but am I misreading something in the above statement? Hopefully a student on first solo wont be faced with a touch and go but he may be and that is my problem.

The poor sod lands long! not enough room to stop! Goes off the end of the runway braking hard on his first solo because no one taught him how to touch and go in a landing flap config????

I am not an instructor just a mere ATP and am not even up to speed on the latest PPL training criteria so can only really go on bits that I pick up.

One is that there has been a move away from conventional training and more towards avoidance and most recoveries being made at the incipient stage?
I do renew a multi engine and have used two old brigade examiners jaa and faa who like full blooded stalls even in a twin.

If I am wrong in my assumptions then please accept my apologies.

I still hold fast as an experienced pilot that NO student PPL should be sent solo without dual instruction on anything he may encounter on his first solo.
Otherwise instructors are playing Russian Roulette with their students.

Pace

[BackPacker]

on anything he may encounter on his first solo.

Just wondering. What circumstances could force a first-solo student to do a touch-and-go instead of a full stop landing?

The only scenario I can think of where a t&g would be appropriate would be a brake failure. But other than that, a touch-and-go will almost certainly require a longer distance than a full stop so if anything goes wrong, it'll be safer to do a full stop than a touch-and-go. (And if you land too long for a full stop, you should've done a go-around in the first place.)

As I said before, I find it much more important to teach proper go-arounds. Touch-and-goes, I think, should only be used if you're practicing landings (with or without an instructor) and you don't want to spend time doing endless taxibacks. But touch-and-goes for the sake of touch-and-goes...?

[Pace]

Backpacker

The obvious is landing too long on a fairly short runway with not enought stopping distance very very easy for a first solo student to do with no experience.

I have even seen a new PPL do that domolishing a hedge at the end of the runway when if he had touched and gone there would have not been a problem.

To say that a first solo should have judged it all and gone around is asking a bit much?

The other probably less likely is a runway obstruction!

touch-and-go will almost certainly require a longer distance than a full stop

Totally untrue!!! Unless you have almost stopped when you decide to go I have touched and gone in a private jet and twin with no more than 200 metres ground roll for real reasons.

You dont give him the proper tools to deal with that situation? Crazy!

Pace

[Whopity]

The first solo is primarily a confidence builder for the student. Prior to going solo the instructor should observe 3 consecutive landings that are safe before authorising the solo. By now, the student will have been flying for around 30 minutes; by the time the instructor has climbed out and sent the student off for his first solo Ex 14, 45 minutes will have elapsed and the student is starting to go off the boil; its now time to stop go for a beer and let the student celebrate, not do more circuits! With his first solo behind him the student can then get on and do his consolidation circuits after a further dual check.

I would never dream of sending a student off for more than one circuit on a first solo.

[Pilot DAR]

What circumstances could force a first-solo student to do a touch-and-go instead of a full stop landing?



Isn't a power recovery from a bad bounce a touch albeit unitended? We sure don't want students to have a mind set that the aircraft must be landed this time, no matter what.... (I did that my early days in a Cardinal RG, it worked, but it was not pretty)

If you landed, and took off again, without really slowning down much on the ground, I think it was a touch and go, even if unintended.

[Pace]

I would never dream of sending a student off for more than one circuit on a first solo.

Whopity

Fingers crossed he is not forced to do two ;)

Pace

[Cows getting bigger]

I think some are missing the point. A T&G is a landing followed by a take-off in the take off configuration. A landing that unintentionally develops into a take-off is most probably a G/A that is commenced in the landing configuration. I put it to you that a student who needs to consider turning a landing into a take-off because he has landed long should not have been sent solo, due to the fact he didn't recognise he was going to land long!

I have observed two aircraft depart the runway on a T&G, one being under the control of a qualified pilot. The other, a student pilot on his second or third solo trip got himself confused on the roll - he applied power and then raised the flaps just as the aircraft became airborne. The aircraft sank on to the runway and the student then lost control. No excuse, but an example of a student not having absolute clarity about the actions required.

Pilot DAR, absolutely right. At the formative stages of training a student must think that every approach will result in a G/A. If things are going well, that G/A may become a landing that may still turn into a G/A. Only after a successful landing should the student pilot now consider doing something rather efficient (no other reason for a T&G) and reconfigure the aircraft for take-off whilst trundling down the runway at 50kts.

I reiterate, I'm talking about basic PPL students with maybe no more than 10 hours or so in their logbooks.

[S-Works]

Bose

You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.

Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.

The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.

He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?
Quote:
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
Pace

Pace I am not sure I am the worlds best Instructor, but with all due respect I probably know more about Instructing than you do? As I am both an FI and a CAA Examiner I probably have proved that I know about Instructing enough to have a valid opinion?

What are you bringing to the discussion?

The objective of the FIRST SOLO is a confidence building exercise. Trust me when you have sent a few solo the difference in attitude and skills is vast. Therefore the objective of the first solo is to make the whole event as undemanding as possible. I generally prefer to send them solo for a single circuit but for the better candidates and better conditions I would send them for a couple of full stops. It is all about confidence building. Sadly these days flying in the corporate treadmill I don't get to send people solo that often but hopefully with the new job on the horizon I will.

[Pace]

CowsgettingBigger

Nice try but cannot buy it :D Certainly not trying to point score but lets get clear what is a GO AROUND and what is a TOUCH AND GO?

A Go Around is any point on an approach to landing that a Pilot decides for whatever reason to abort the landing and GOES AROUND!

A TOUCH and GO is just what it says! Any point from touching down that the Pilot decides for whatever reason to takeoff again.

Its as simple as that :E

What are you bringing to the discussion?

I hope a discussion on why SOME instructors think its OK to send a student solo instructed to do Go Arounds but NOT touch and goes??? In the event that on their one circuit SOLO god help them they have to do one!
No I am not an instructor just an ATP Corporate jet Captain and jet ferry pilot as well as having 3000 hrs in piston twins and having flown to many corners of the globe so what can I bring to the discussion? prob not a lot!
Must get my instructor certificate

Pace

[S-Works]

Pace, not meant to be a pissing contest. I can equal your hours and corporate/ferry experience which brings us back to my question about about what you bring to the table regarding Instruction?

As I said before, we don't send students solo without the required skills. However we do send them solo in a controlled manner. How about respecting that?

[Cows getting bigger]

Pace

Let us take the average PPL student in his 172. He is taught to set 30deg flap and 65kts on final approach to land. If he lands, he will ensure the aircraft is under control, vacate the runway, clean up and taxi back. If at any point on the approach he needs to Go Around, he will apply full power, select a suitable attitude to arrest descent, remove one stage of flap to 20deg and then select a suitable attitude to climb away. He will subsequently raise the rest of the flap at some point where he isn't close to the ground and reposition.

Take the same chap who is doing T&Gs. The approach and landing will be the same, notably using 30deg flap. He will then raise all the flap, maybe adjust the trim, keep the aircraft aligned with the centreline and finally apply full power to take off.

The final scenario. The student pilot plans on landing (or indeed a T&G) but bounces (Touch?) the aircraft. At this point, you and I would probably do something rather clever with power to recover the landing. Without exception, every training school i have ever know teaches the low-time PPL student to throw this landing away and try again. So, the aircraft is about 5-10ft above the runway with speed decaying and AOA approaching a scary number. At this point does the student do his T&G checks (raise flaps to T/O, achieve centreline then add power) or does he do his G/A checks (full power, appropriate attitude, gradually retract flaps)? The argument is similar in the event that the student pilot cannot maintain enough directional control to keep the aircraft on the runway.

Keep it simple.

[SNS3Guppy]

I still hold fast as an experienced pilot that NO student PPL should be sent solo without dual instruction on anything he may encounter on his first solo.

No student should ever be expected to tackle or experience something that he hasn't first experienced under the watchful hand of his instructor. No student should solo without being fully prepared. Pace is absolutely correct here. It's not only unprofessional and immoral, but should be (and is in some locations) illegal to send a student out unprepared.

A student cannot be asked to make a solo landing without being fully versed in making a go-around. During every approach, during every second of every approach to land, one is faced with either the possibility of continuing to land, or the need to go around. The student must, therefore, be prepared to do either one.

On the runway, it's a slightly different matter. I first began running into the notion that schools wouldn't allow touch and go landings, about fifteen years ago. I was shocked at the time. I couldn't believe anyone wouldn't teach a touch and go, let alone that they would prohibit this function in an airplane. Especially a light airplane.

There's little difference between a touch and go, and a go-around initiated close to or on the runway. They become the same thing, really. There are certainly times when someone may have landed long, rolled too far, and may not have enough runway to go around or to a touch and go. There are some cases, such as conventional gear training (tailwheel training), when stop-and-go work is important to include that all-important transition with the tailwheel coming down to terra firm again. However, the ability to execute a touch and go is the same ability that allows a student to recover from a pilot-induced oscillation on the runway, a bad bounce, a bad landing, a high flare, or any number of other common errors. A student having trouble with a landing, including a crosswind landing, is very often much, much better off taking the airplane around in the safety of the air, than trying to salvage a bad situation.

Go-arounds, as they say are free. Stacking the airplane up alongside the runway while trying to salvage a bad landing, is not.

No student should be sent solo who can't do flaps-up and no-flap landings. No student should be sent solo who can't go-around. No student should be sent solo who can't go around while on the runway...but we call that a touch-and-go (or bumps and circuits, as the case may be). No student should be sent solo who can't execute a power-off forced landing. No student should be sent solo who can't detect carburetor ice and apply heat properly. No student should be sent solo that isn't familiar with the performance, emergency procedures, and other important facets of operating that airplane, including limitations.

What is the student to do, when solo if a requirement for this knowledge comes up, and the instructor hasn't provided it?

Instructors who fail to provide it, and indeed schools that fail to insist on it being taught, are failing the student, and the student should seek proper instruction elsewhere.

Yes, many schools do prohibit touch and go landings. Much better the school teach properly, than elect to put such stupid limitations on what should be a basic part of being taught to fly the airplane.

[S-Works]

I have het to see a single example where anyone is suggesting that a studentnis sent solo without being prepared. However on a first solo there are many reasons whynan Instructor may Wang a student to do touch and goes.

Those who have never sent a sudent solo might just struggle to appreciate this....

[FlyingStone]

I don't really see the problem with doing touch and goes on first solo flight, provided the runway is long enough (let's say at least 1500m) and student can easily reconfigure the aircraft without using half the runway in the process.

In most training aircraft (for PPL) the only thing you need to do on the ground during touch and go is retract the flaps if extended (fully or to a proper takeoff setting) and apply takeoff power. And if a student pilot isn't capable of maintaining centerline (approximately, but solos normally aren't done in strong crosswinds) while retracting flaps and applying full throttle, he shouldn't be sent solo anyway. And even on the chance he/she forgot to raise the flap, most training aircraft will climb despite being in full dirty configuration - but most students would probably sense something is wrong quite fast, since the aircraft would nor accelerate nor climb as nearly as good as on first takeoff.

I agree with SNS3Guppy, not all go-arounds are done from 50-100ft, go-around might be called for (reason is really the least important thing when initiating go-around) when both main and nose gear is on the ground. And then - how does this kind of go-around differ from touch and go?

What really scares me, is some of you talking to a pre-solo student as someone with "10 hours". I always though the skill showed by the student allowed him to go solo, not hours in logbook - we as a people are all different: a student with an extensive gliding experience may solo in 5 hours, a very slow learner with long breaks between lessons might not do it in 50. But at the end, both of them will have to show proper and continuous skill to the instructor. My opinion: if a student isn't able to do consecutive touch and goes without any input from an instructor, he shouldn't be allowed to solo.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

directional control to keep the aircraft on the runway
My experience of failing to raise the flaps on a 172 on a T&G is that the only way to stop it going off the left hand side of the runway is to realise that you've screwed something up and chop the power. (If anyone was watching they didn't say anything.)

[SNS3Guppy]

How would flaps make you go off the left side of the runway?

Knowing when to pull the plug is certainly important. I'm glad you stayed on the runway.

[S-Works]

Normally we expect to see several touch and goes done well before we send someone solo. That is different from the SOP fir actually sending someone solo.

As I have sent more than enough solo over the years to be unrestricted then I suspect I might have a valid input over the students or corporate pilots giving sage advice.

Sending a student on a FIRST solo is just about the most difficult thing an FI will ever do. It is quite natural to expect them to do risk limitation

Even these days in a corporate training environment I am risk adverse......

[SNS3Guppy]

Typically for a first solo, I have the student do a full stop on the runway. I get out, and wait by the runway while the student performs three touch and go landing, and a full stop.

[flybymike]

I have long been out of the rental scene, , but in the days when I was renting, the local flying club would not only not permit T and Gs by students, but would also not allow them to be carried out by PPLs when flying club aircraft. I will bet a pound to a penny the same rules still apply.

[RatherBeFlying]

When soloed in a C-150, I had been doing T&Gs for a number of lessons; so, when the instructor left, I continued doing what I had been doing. There is a benefit on first solo to make it as close as possible to what was happening with the instructor onboard.

When I was soloed on a taildragger on a short sloped strip, I began with stop and goes even though I had been doing T&Gs with the instructor in back; then took it to a 5000' runway for T&Gs. Once more comfortable and consistent with the a/c, did T&Gs on the short, sloped strip.

It's all about looking at the situation with your current skill level and putting the odds in your favor. Either the PIC does that or the instructor does.

[Pace]

flight schools will make a lot more money if you do 3 full stop landings rather than 3 touch and goes.

Larger airports may not want you backtracking the runway with other arriving and departing aircraft and you could be asked to clear and taxi round if you want to do full stop landings.

We have to differentiate between using touch and goes to cram in as many landings as possible in a given time and where the technique of touch and goes are as safety related as the go around.

A bad landing, obstruction on the runway. Misjudged touch down etc.
It is a vital safety technique.
I had one in the citation at a Swiss airport where a piper cub mistakenly pulled onto the runway from an intersection.

It is a technique which obviously has potential perils if used incorrectly.

Having the mindset that I will land and stop at all costs because I have not been taught how to safely execute a touch and go is a high risk approach to take.
It takes judgement on whether you are better attempting to stop in a situation or whether you are better taking off back into the air!

We are probably at cross purposes because I am arguing it as a safety technique which needs to be mastered before solo while others are saying that it should not be used by early students on solo circuits to cram in as many landings as possible in a set time.

The touch and go used for circuits obviously has by its nature more risk of a mistake than a straight deceleration to a full stop especially when used by early inexperieced solo students.

That was not what caused this row. It was me arguing a point that the touch and go which covers everything from a pure touch and taking back to the air in a fraction of a second to deciding to takeoff again after a prolonged deceleration is as vital a technique to master pre solo with an instructor as stalling.

The other confusion between us is what other posters here classify as a Go Around and what makes a touch and go.

Pace

[Cows getting bigger]

Pace, we agree although we obviously have differing terminology. For clarity (after all, that is what the student needs) it is important to teach the student pilot how to 'get airborne again' after an unplanned event. It is reasonable to expect that in this scenario, the student will (may?) not have reconfigured his aircraft for take-off. I disagree with SNS in his assertion that a T&G and G/A are essentially the same thing. The aim and the outcome may be the same, but the techniques used may be very different.

I should also emphasise that we are talking about low-houred student pilots (someone had an issue with my 10 hour comment - that was merely an attempt to describe an approximate level of experience) who do not have the experience to make 'complex' decisions; at that stage of their training they need a black or white, out of the bag solution.

[WestWind1950]

I agree with Guppy here. A student needs to be trained in all aspects of landing possibilities before being sent solo. At the flight school I taught at, the students often did T&G's on first solo without any problems.... runway length 800 m! And if it's a field with only one runway and no taxiway (=backtracking) be sure that T&G's only will be done. Usually we'd fly one pattern with the student, and if all went well, make a full stop, taxi to the apron, then climb out and he/she was on their own for at least 3 T&G's or full stops.... student decision!

I remember a story about a kid on his first solo having to go around and fly to a completely different field! In spite of weather warnings, the instructor let him solo. The first two went well, on the third the squall line approached with high winds! He couldn't land safely. He ended up flying off to the East, ahead of the squall line and landed at the next best field he found.... luckily an easy, flat one about 35 NM away from his home base (I was there at the time and observed his safe landing).

[IFMU]

Wow- a controversial topic. Who would have thought?

In 1990 my first solo was in a PA12. I did full stop, taxi back per the instructor's wishes. I was equally able to do a full stop or a T&G. The positive thing about the full stop, for a first solo, is it gives the student a chance to take a breather between circuits. The task by the time the student is ready for solo is easy, but the psychology of flying by yourself is new. The other thing about full stops - it is the first solo, it is a special moment meant to demonstrate and develop self-confidence. What is the rush? Just as an experience I think the full stop gave me time to appreciate the moment.

-- IFMU

[Pace]

This is not about whether your first solo should be to a full stop! Mine 25 years ago plus was to a full stop but I did nothing but touch and goes with my instructor until he was happy that in the event of the worst happening I was equipt to deal with what occurred with a reasonable chance of handling it. Some students are very competent and confident. I remember 1 who when told to do one circuit to a full stop took it on himself to do 3 touch and goes.
At the end of the day we are all different! But in this thread it was indicated that some students had never done a touch and go before first solo which in my book is very wrong.

Pace

[Jan Olieslagers]

As a low-time pilot I don't have much to say of course, still here goes for what it's worth: the first solo is indeed a moment of stress, if only for the long time it has been coveted. To keep the stress to a minimum, I think the instructor should best make the first solo resemble as much as possible to what the student is used to. Whatever that may be. For myself I was used to doing touch and go's, and lots of them. So when the moment was come, my instructor told me to go off and do two or three circuits - he didn't even mention the T&G's, that was an evidence.

Upon reading this thread, I realised I was sent off solo without ever having trained anything like in-flight power failure - a bit uncomfortable that thought, looking back now.

[Jabiman]

Typically for a first solo, I have the student do a full stop on the runway. I get out, and wait by the runway while the student performs three touch and go landing, and a full stop.
Better watch out that this doesnt happen to you guppy:
YouTube - ???? ????? ?????????? Touch and go failure (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx6jZbLGxZ8&feature=related)

[suraci]

The flight school could also be taking the view that a taxi back before the next take off may be kinder on the engine than a touch and go

[dirkdj]

Regarding the previous Youtube clip about a Bonanza T&G gone bad: it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft, especially Bonanzas and Barons. The reason: on pre-1984 models the flaps are on the left and the gear on the right side of the throttle quadrant, on later models the gear is on the left and the flaps on the right.

If you hit the gear handle for only a fraction of a second, the gear will become unlocked and folds under the weight. At T&G speeds on the runway, the squat switch is not guaranteed to do it's job. You see the result in the clip.

[flyinkiwi]

I remember when I started learning the circuit the first lesson was stop and backtrack but from then on it was touch and goes for 6 or so hours until my first solo. I had done 3 circuits prior to my first solo with the head instructor next to me. I completely trusted his judgment at the time (and still do) and had he asked me to land and backtrack instead I would have done so, but he asked for 3 solo circuits so 3 solo circuits is what he got.

[SNS3Guppy]

Better watch out that this doesnt happen to you guppy:

Hence the reason for providing proper instruction in the first place.

it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft, especially Bonanzas and Barons.

Strongly discouraged by whom?

I strongly encourage it.

It's training, after all. Teach a student to recognize the control, identify it, verify it, then move it.

Fast hands kill. Teach students to slow down.

I once had a student in a Cessna 210 who refused to raise the gear in the traffic pattern. He didn't want to do touch and go landings, either. His reasoning on the gear was that if he didn't raise it, it wouldn't fail.

I explained to him that I wanted to see him move that gear handle every time he took off, and move it every time he landed. Get in the habit of not moving that gear handle means getting in the habit of forgetting the gear.

To suggest that one should never perform touch and go landings during training is to suggest the need to go around will never occur during a landing. If you can assure that the student will never need to take it around during a bad landing, if you can assure that the student may never need to use that skill, then by all means, fail to provide the proper training that may one day save your student and passengers.

It's unprofessional and bad form, but if you can justify it, then have a ball.

[dirkdj]

Guppy,

It is on page 1 of the Instructors In-Flight Guide for the BPPP program (Bonanza and Baron Pilot Proficiency Program), a subsidiary of the ABS. This is not initial training on fixed gear trainers.

It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.

[SNS3Guppy]

This is not initial training on fixed gear trainers.

No, it's multi engine training in light piston twins.

It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway.

Hopefully your students will never need to go around once the wheels are on the ground. If they do, they'll do it without the benefit of having proper instruction. If you can live without giving proper instruction and covering all contingencies, so be it. It's your conscience, your ticket.

Of course, it's the students life, and that of their passengers. Personally, I'm not comfortable releasing a student who isn't fully trained to proficiency. That includes light, piston twins.

One solution to introducing a rolling go-around is to have the instructor handle the flaps and reset cowl flaps as the student flies. Introduce additional workload progressively, and perform drills on the ramp in a quiet, dark airplane; no power, just an instructor and student doing blindfold drills to find the proper controls and identify them. Simple. Safe.

[Pace]

We make too much of this thing called complex aircraft and low time students!
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins

Pace

[Pilot DAR]

I have heard It is also good practice not to touch anything besides throttle and foot brakes when on the runway, I retract flaps only after clearing the runway. before, but I do not universally agree with it.

I do not have experiance flyinf Barons, or Bonanzas (though test flying a Baron is in my future, so I'm oaying attention).

When I did my multi ride in a Cessna 310R back about 1983, I was nicked a point for raising the flaps just after touchdown. The examiner told me that one was not to touch anything while on the roll out. I pointed out to hime that the Flight Manual for the 310 (an aircraft with which I knew he was very familiar (it's why I had chosen him) specifically said for a short field landing, to raise the flaps immediatedly after touchdown. I had landed on a realtively short runway.

He did not disagree with me, and reassrted his "rule" as his preference.

I agree that while on the roll, it is unwise to perform un-necessary tasks, which if incorrectly accomplished have dramatic outcomes (and we know what they are). But one must still be able to manage "flying the plane" whatever that requires, so training to not touch anything is foolish...

[flybymike]

We make too much of this thing called complex aircraft and low time students!
I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
Students have in the past done PPLs on complex singles and even twins

Pace

Hear hear Pace.

Another consequence of the modern day "safety culture". We are all going to end up as a load of wussies. As my CFI used to say whenever I expressed apprehension, "It's only a bloody aeroplane..."

[Tankengine]

On reading the whole thread fairly quickly I would like to state a few of my own opinions [ex GA instructor, current Airline Captain and glider instructor]

All of my students [GA] did many touch and goes [and some go-arounds] before solo. [glider pilots land "somewhere":E]

For first solo one only full stop landing [except the guy who did 4 circuits, 3 touch and goes because I didn't brief him properly:rolleyes:]

An aborted landing, even after all wheels on runway is a go-around, not a touch and go [a T&G has a reconfig of flaps and trim on the runway]

I have done touch and goes from Cessna 150 through Taildraggers and Barons etc to 767 and 747s! It's all about the training!:ok:

In normal ops [not training] I don't touch anything until I am off runway unless the type requires it or it helps the operation [like dumping flap on a taildragger after landing]:}:}

Get out there and have fun!:ok: [but find good instructors:eek:]

[172driver]

it is strongly discouraged to do touch and goes in any retractable gear aircraft

Why? I regularly do T&Gs to stay proficient in various landing techniques and I always fly a retractable (172RG).

Yes, you need to reconfigure the a/c pretty presto, but isn't that what training is all about ? Proficiency?

PS: if you are referring only to Bonanzas and Barons then there may be a valid reason (though I can't think of one) - I have no experience in either.

[WestWind1950]

I know of a pilot who bought himself a Mooney and got permission to do all his training on it. He did fine!

Some airfields are more difficult/complex then the airplains we fly.

[ifresh21]

Thanks for the help everyone - I am quite overwhelmed by all the responses.

Now I know that it is not in FAA regulations. I am pretty sure that it is not against flight school or airport rules. I will be sure to ask my instructor.

BTW - imo students should be able to do touch and gos as long as the procedures have been clearly explained and continually overviewed with the instructor. Also, they should have a lot of practice.

Personally, approx 80% of my landings have been touch and gos. My solo was literally the first time I called in as a student pilot (Class C airport) and the first time I ever did a full stop taxi back. Kind of weird (doesn't follow the no firsts on solo you guys talk about) but my instructor was confident in me and I was as well.

Please don't argue. :)

[TRPGpilot]

Strange the different policies on T&Gs! My first solo was done after doing a few with my instructor. He mentioned his intention to me that he wanted me to solo by asking "do you want to go and do one of those again on your own?" Anyway all subsequent solos were touch and goes untill my nav exercises. This is in the UK though. Before first solo I was competent in go-arounds even anticipating when a go-around might be needed if there were 2 ahead in the circuit and I was downwind turning base for egzample. (the circuit was a tight one)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I wonder how on earth in world war 2 they ever got 18 year olds to fly powerful aircraft like the Spitfire in a handful of hours?
In part by accepting a vastly higher death-in-training rate than we do now for civilian hobbyists.

[Pace]

In part by accepting a vastly higher death-in-training rate

Gertrude

You may be right but I am sure you have the statistics that you have made the above comment from? would be interested to know those statistics and the basis of the vastly higher death rate in training compared with modern military training.
Obviously civilian and military training are different! military training involving manouvres required to fight and survive while I dont think Joe Bloggs at the local flying club will learn the same techniques :E

Pace

[Pace]

They also used to quickly teach people to swim by chucking them in deep water and only pulling them out if they ended up on the bottom!
But the point I am really making is that a student can train on a much more complex aircraft than we may think.
Less power doesn't mean better safety.Infact less power means a greater chance of a stall / spin through high drag low power.
A good instructor can teach on a complex from the word go.
It doesn't have to be a low powered fixed gear fixed prop aircraft.

Pace

[Cows getting bigger]

Infact less power means a greater chance of a stall / spin through high drag low power. A good instructor can teach on a complex from the word go.

Remind us, do you have an instructor rating?

[flybymike]

It is possible to know something about aviation without being an instructor.

[SNS3Guppy]

Remind us, do you have an instructor rating?

I don't believe he does, but he's still correct.

I'm an instructor, and I agree with his comments. Is that close enough?

It is possible to know something about aviation without being an instructor.

That is absolutely 100% correct.

The difference between the instructor and the non-instructor is that the instructor can lend his signature to incorrect information. Instructing isn't about other-worldly pilot skills, and it isn't about having an unusual compendium of knowledge. It's about being able to present material, recognize common student errors (and correct them), and to explain in a way that's understood.

[Pace]

Remind us, do you have an instructor rating?

CowsGettingBigger

The only instruction I have done is the training for the issue of an SIC on an FAA reg Citation. This was using my ATP!

A 30000 hr ATP may not have an instructor rating does this mean he doesnt have the experience to offer an opinion over an instructor?

What does an instructor need to be classified as an instructor? Somewhere around 200 hrs total time on fixed gear single props? WOW i am impressed.

I have thousands of hours on numerous multi engine pistons in hard IFR all over Europe in every weather imaginable plus have flown for numerous owner/operators as a Captain on private Jets and still do! plus have jet ferry work to the far East South Africa, America, Europe as Captain.

So your probably right I cannot hold a candle up against the 200 hr instructor?

Pace

[FlyingKiwi_73]

Having recently got my license in a shortish time my solo is still fairly fresh in my mind. I did a single circuit and full stop as is the norm here downunder, i was taught T&G's and go'rounds before solo (although due to my late arriving class1 medical my solo was a little 'overcooked').

What they DID NOT teach me enough of was abandoning a takeoff which was far more frightening than i realised having had to do one for real.
I agree with Pace you should teach the student EVERYTHING they may face when doing a circuit including abandoning and rejoining the ciruit and abandoning take offs.

Of course i should have abadoned the circuit and rejoined.

I found my Instructors were excellent and did show me some excellent 'real life' flying tips rather than teaching me 'how to drive' and I really enjoyed mastering the more funky things like wing drop stalls and unsual atttudes. Depending on which instructer i flew with determined how 'unusual' the attitude was.

We also have a new part to the sylabus which is terrain awareness this was excellent. Being able to pick a tight valley and figuring out whether you can execute a 180 safely. Kills alot of people in NZ and is a valuable addition to the training, lot of fun too!

[ifresh21]

My instructor says its cause he believes its in the regulations. Also, he doesn't want his students doing it anyway cause it gives them extra time and everything.

[SNS3Guppy]

My instructor says its cause he believes its in the regulations.

Ask your instructor to show you the regulation. You might both learn something.

[Skycatcher162]

I am a Student Pilot with about 7 hours Solo. (60 hours total) I asked my "NEW" intructor for a endorsement to go to a nearby class D airport to do touch and goes. I have 225 landings with over half touch and goes at this airport. I have practiced them Solo at "my" class D airport were the flight school is...at least I did before this instructor came here after getting fired from my first school.

He told me "A student Pilot cannot do touch and goes with out a instructor"

My last instructor did not have a problem with it (at least at flight school airport- he has left for Commercial job). I find his response hard to believe. I left my first flight school becuase of this instructor. (He "soaked" me $$ on instruction and was not focused on my training) I know he needs the $$$ and I believe that is the reason behind his response.

Can I get a HONEST answer to the point?? Is it "legal" if student is "qualified" as I believe I am? Is there a requirment that an Instructor has to be with student? Thanks!


From FAA Website:
After I’ve soloed, can I fly cross-country alone?

Not right away. Your instructor must review your pre-flight planning and preparation for solo cross-country flight and determine that the flight can be made safely under known circumstances and conditions. The instructor must also endorse your logbook before cross- country flight stating you are considered competent to make the flight. An instructor may authorize repeated solo flights over a given route.