Touch and goes during solo flight (student pilot in USA)
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Touch and goes during solo flight (student pilot in USA)
Hi,
On my first solo flight my instructor told me that I have to do Stop and Gos (taxi off runway and taxi back to beginning of runway and take off again) rather than touch and goes. He said that it is technically against the rules to do touch and go during solo - I didn't ask any questions at the time.
I am 16. I asked a friend who did his solo at the same age (last year) and he said that he did touch and goes.
Has anyone heard of this or read regulations concerning this issue?
Thank you in advance!
On my first solo flight my instructor told me that I have to do Stop and Gos (taxi off runway and taxi back to beginning of runway and take off again) rather than touch and goes. He said that it is technically against the rules to do touch and go during solo - I didn't ask any questions at the time.
I am 16. I asked a friend who did his solo at the same age (last year) and he said that he did touch and goes.
Has anyone heard of this or read regulations concerning this issue?
Thank you in advance!
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Its not against the rules legally but may be against the school rules as published in the flying order book, a lot of schools in the US do this as there has been a number of accidents involving students doing touch and gos and not retracting the flaps and stalling etc
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My first solo was stop-taxiback-go too. I don't know if I was specifically cleared to do touch-and-goes later on during my solo period, but I remember doing them solo at some point in time without any objection from my instructor.
What's probably a more relevant question: Once you've gone solo, why would you want to do more touch-and-goes so desperately? You've proven that you can take-off and land, otherwise your instructor wouldn't have sent you solo. I know you've got to fly 10 hours solo somehow and doing touch-and-goes is a nice break from boring holes in the sky but other than that...? It's not like the perfect touch-and-go is an exam requirement.
And there's another trap to fall into. If you do too many touch-and-goes, you might start doing them on auto. Particularly retracting the flaps before adding power. If you ever need to do a go-around, this automatic behaviour can be deadly. In this respect I think go-arounds should be practiced at least as often as touch-and-goes but somehow they weren't when I did my training. I did maybe three go-arounds altogether during that period.
What's probably a more relevant question: Once you've gone solo, why would you want to do more touch-and-goes so desperately? You've proven that you can take-off and land, otherwise your instructor wouldn't have sent you solo. I know you've got to fly 10 hours solo somehow and doing touch-and-goes is a nice break from boring holes in the sky but other than that...? It's not like the perfect touch-and-go is an exam requirement.
And there's another trap to fall into. If you do too many touch-and-goes, you might start doing them on auto. Particularly retracting the flaps before adding power. If you ever need to do a go-around, this automatic behaviour can be deadly. In this respect I think go-arounds should be practiced at least as often as touch-and-goes but somehow they weren't when I did my training. I did maybe three go-arounds altogether during that period.
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Touch and goes are vital and frankly a pilot who isnt up to having to go around safely from a low pass or touch and go shouldnt be considered for first solo.
He may have to do just that on his first solo either through a misjudged or heavy landing or blockage on the runway!
If the guy/gal isnt up to touch and goes then dont go SOLO because your not ready.
Pace
He may have to do just that on his first solo either through a misjudged or heavy landing or blockage on the runway!
If the guy/gal isnt up to touch and goes then dont go SOLO because your not ready.
Pace
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One place had a "no solo student touch-and-goes on such-and-such a runway" rule because too many people had run off the end of it. They were allowed on the long runway.
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First solo touch & goes were banned at our school after a student went off the runway, sideways, ended up on the parallel taxiway facing 90 deg off. They never stop to amaze you, don't they?
Honestly, I don't know how the hell it happened, or if it were grounds for banning in altogether, but it's not up to me.
Honestly, I don't know how the hell it happened, or if it were grounds for banning in altogether, but it's not up to me.
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Pace, I disagree. In most training aircraft the process of a T&G is different to a go around (which may occur after the 'touch'). A T&G involves reconfiguring before getting airborne which then brings the risk of losing directional control on the ground; it is a successful landing followed by a successful take-off. This requires an extra decision cycle to be followed "Do I have enough time to get this done?" A go-around involves reconfiguring once airborne and there is no real decision to be made.
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
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An inexperienced pilot should not be prompted to attempt things while solo, which have not neen trained dual first, and been accomplished with some demonstrated skill.
That said, runway length decision making is rather important as a skill too. If a runway is so short that in a given type, a touch and go is inadvisable, it is probably a poor choice as a training or initial solo runway anyway.
Prior to solo, a student pilot's skills should be sufficient that they can manage the reconfiguring task (aircraft design requirements include provisions to minimize errors in doing this). The student should also have the skill required to safely handle accidently coming airborne with full flaps extended. This is safely managed by a compotent pilot in all certified aircraft types commonly used for training. It's really nothing different from going around from a recovered bounch, and that's being trained... right?
Students should be being trained to make good go-no go decisions on the runway, touch and goes are a part of that training, and should be practiced on runways of suitable dimension. The odd time a pilot must recognize a runway which may be unsuitable for a "go" in any situation in that type. That should prompt an altered plan for landing, and that runway is not a solo training runway anyway....
That said, runway length decision making is rather important as a skill too. If a runway is so short that in a given type, a touch and go is inadvisable, it is probably a poor choice as a training or initial solo runway anyway.
Prior to solo, a student pilot's skills should be sufficient that they can manage the reconfiguring task (aircraft design requirements include provisions to minimize errors in doing this). The student should also have the skill required to safely handle accidently coming airborne with full flaps extended. This is safely managed by a compotent pilot in all certified aircraft types commonly used for training. It's really nothing different from going around from a recovered bounch, and that's being trained... right?
Students should be being trained to make good go-no go decisions on the runway, touch and goes are a part of that training, and should be practiced on runways of suitable dimension. The odd time a pilot must recognize a runway which may be unsuitable for a "go" in any situation in that type. That should prompt an altered plan for landing, and that runway is not a solo training runway anyway....
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I do not know if the changes in training from the days when I learnt to fly are a reflection of our NO risk society?
now we dont seem to train pilots to handle aircraft anymore but to purely drive them and to avoid any situation which might require skill.
Fully developed stalls in all configurations in singles and twins? Fully developed spins? Spiral dives etc.
Now it appears to be all to do with recovery at the incipient stage.
Unless of course your lucky enough to get in with one of the older old way type instructors.
If you cannot handle a touch and go on a suitable runway then you should not be flying solo as you cannot handle the aircraft and that is the biggest risk of all. Russian Roulette!!!
Pace
now we dont seem to train pilots to handle aircraft anymore but to purely drive them and to avoid any situation which might require skill.
Fully developed stalls in all configurations in singles and twins? Fully developed spins? Spiral dives etc.
Now it appears to be all to do with recovery at the incipient stage.
Unless of course your lucky enough to get in with one of the older old way type instructors.
If you cannot handle a touch and go on a suitable runway then you should not be flying solo as you cannot handle the aircraft and that is the biggest risk of all. Russian Roulette!!!
Pace
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I vaguely recall my very first solo was stop and backtaxi also, but thereafter I did loads of T&Gs. And yes, I certainly trained for them with my instructor prior to going solo.
What did happen on my first solo was a go-around. I came in too high and too fast, didn't like the picture out front and decided I'll try this again. Worked.
Interesting thoughts from Pace. While I didn't do spins, we certainly did fully developed stalls. And spiral dives, recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (and once at night), emergency descents, etc. All that was in the US in the 90s.
What did happen on my first solo was a go-around. I came in too high and too fast, didn't like the picture out front and decided I'll try this again. Worked.
Interesting thoughts from Pace. While I didn't do spins, we certainly did fully developed stalls. And spiral dives, recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (and once at night), emergency descents, etc. All that was in the US in the 90s.
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Having completed my PPL(A) in june '10 I guess I qualify as a "modern" student. Did all training on PA28.
Did:
* Fully developed stall (in clean/landing cfg)
* Recovery from unusual attitudes (also in IMC)
* Go-arounds
Didn't:
* Touch and go on first solo
* Spin (slightly pointless in a PA28?)
Did:
* Fully developed stall (in clean/landing cfg)
* Recovery from unusual attitudes (also in IMC)
* Go-arounds
Didn't:
* Touch and go on first solo
* Spin (slightly pointless in a PA28?)
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Generally speaking when sending someone for their FIRST solo we try to make sure they are fully prepared but also make the experience as stress free as possible. Think back to your own first solos, your hearts were beating you were excited.
Doing full stops on the first solo is a good philosophy and one that I still prescribe to. It gives you the opportunity to double check that the aircraft is in the right configuration and everything is prepared.
On subsequent solos I then used to increase the skills that were included.
Would I send someone solo who could not do a touch and go? No of course I would not. But that does not mean that they have to do them.
Flight training is about progression, not getting everything perfect on day one. Can I respectfully suggest that those who have no experience of flight training refrain from espousing opinion as if it is fact.
There are a lot of reasons that we do things in certain ways when teaching. It has worked just fine for many decades.
Doing full stops on the first solo is a good philosophy and one that I still prescribe to. It gives you the opportunity to double check that the aircraft is in the right configuration and everything is prepared.
On subsequent solos I then used to increase the skills that were included.
Would I send someone solo who could not do a touch and go? No of course I would not. But that does not mean that they have to do them.
Flight training is about progression, not getting everything perfect on day one. Can I respectfully suggest that those who have no experience of flight training refrain from espousing opinion as if it is fact.
There are a lot of reasons that we do things in certain ways when teaching. It has worked just fine for many decades.
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Bose
You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.
Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.
The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.
He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?
Pace
You may be a wonderful instructor and I am sure you are. That doesnt take away from the fact in this thread that some have never done touch and goes and some have even been banned from doing them.
Obviously a student on his first solo is going to probably do one circuit to a full stop and then continue his/her training from there.
The facts are that once in that aircraft on his/her own there is no one there to help. 99.9% of the time the circuit will be uneventful but there is always the small chance that some of those skills will be required due to an unforeseen situation.
He maybe too high, land badly, get a blockage on the runway or whatever.
While a first solo student is on a learning path once in an aircraft alone they should have the basic skills to handle any situation which may arise in completing that circuit. That includes touch and goes!This thread seems to indicate that "some" are sent on first solo without those skills?
All student pilots must be able to effect consistently safe G/As before solo, including recovery from a bounced landing etc. However, I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
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Pace, you're reading what you want. Read my quote again. Does it 'indicate that some are sent first solo without those skills'?
I thought not.
My baseline personal criteria are that a first and second solo should always be go-arounds or landings, backtrack, take-off. After that, we will develop the confidence to do T&Gs. If we have been able to do T&Gs during cct training then fine, things will progress swimmingly. If students haven't done T&Gs (which I accept would be an unusual scenario), I'm not going to let the fact get in the way of sending him/her solo as we will have already encompassed the whole G/A scenario.
As for all your other stuff about spins, spiral dives etc, I would say you are being rather disingenuous. Do instructors teach to the minimum requirement or do they actually teach way beyond that to include stalls beyond incipient, spins etc? My overwhelming experience is the latter.
I thought not.
My baseline personal criteria are that a first and second solo should always be go-arounds or landings, backtrack, take-off. After that, we will develop the confidence to do T&Gs. If we have been able to do T&Gs during cct training then fine, things will progress swimmingly. If students haven't done T&Gs (which I accept would be an unusual scenario), I'm not going to let the fact get in the way of sending him/her solo as we will have already encompassed the whole G/A scenario.
As for all your other stuff about spins, spiral dives etc, I would say you are being rather disingenuous. Do instructors teach to the minimum requirement or do they actually teach way beyond that to include stalls beyond incipient, spins etc? My overwhelming experience is the latter.
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I was taught full stalls in power on power off, clean config.,landing config., climbing turns etc. Also spins, spirals, touch and goes, go arounds, full stop landings, low and overs, orbiting overhead and runway changes prior to solo.
Then all solo circuits were followed by full stop landings and reconfigure prior to taking off again. "You learn more doing full stops than touch and goes" said my instructor.
Touch and go/go around practice paid off at a rural aerodome when a coyote ran on the runway just prior to wheels down and another time when a 172 crossed the hold short line, entered the r/w and started his take off roll while I was less than 150 ft on short final.
Be patient, study hard learn quickly and enjoy the confidence while your instructor is in the right seat. He won't be there when the "ship hits the sand" the first time.
Then all solo circuits were followed by full stop landings and reconfigure prior to taking off again. "You learn more doing full stops than touch and goes" said my instructor.
Touch and go/go around practice paid off at a rural aerodome when a coyote ran on the runway just prior to wheels down and another time when a 172 crossed the hold short line, entered the r/w and started his take off roll while I was less than 150 ft on short final.
Be patient, study hard learn quickly and enjoy the confidence while your instructor is in the right seat. He won't be there when the "ship hits the sand" the first time.
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I recently completed my PPL in Florida and all of my solo circuits were full stop and taxi back. I was told that this was a school policy due to the danger of students doing touch and gos and having/causing an accident. During dual flights and during my skills test it was mostly touch and gos though.
As a contrast, I also did training in Australia where solo touch and gos were the norm. This was on a significantly smaller runway with much more potential for something to go wrong in my opinion as runway could run out fast if you landed long. Still, at no point did I ever feel unsafe and I personally think non-first solo students should be allowed to practice touch and gos.
As a contrast, I also did training in Australia where solo touch and gos were the norm. This was on a significantly smaller runway with much more potential for something to go wrong in my opinion as runway could run out fast if you landed long. Still, at no point did I ever feel unsafe and I personally think non-first solo students should be allowed to practice touch and gos.
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I can foresee circumstances where student pilots may have never done T&Gs before solo.
Sorry but am I misreading something in the above statement? Hopefully a student on first solo wont be faced with a touch and go but he may be and that is my problem.
The poor sod lands long! not enough room to stop! Goes off the end of the runway braking hard on his first solo because no one taught him how to touch and go in a landing flap config????
I am not an instructor just a mere ATP and am not even up to speed on the latest PPL training criteria so can only really go on bits that I pick up.
One is that there has been a move away from conventional training and more towards avoidance and most recoveries being made at the incipient stage?
I do renew a multi engine and have used two old brigade examiners jaa and faa who like full blooded stalls even in a twin.
If I am wrong in my assumptions then please accept my apologies.
I still hold fast as an experienced pilot that NO student PPL should be sent solo without dual instruction on anything he may encounter on his first solo.
Otherwise instructors are playing Russian Roulette with their students.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jan 2011 at 16:20.
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on anything he may encounter on his first solo.
The only scenario I can think of where a t&g would be appropriate would be a brake failure. But other than that, a touch-and-go will almost certainly require a longer distance than a full stop so if anything goes wrong, it'll be safer to do a full stop than a touch-and-go. (And if you land too long for a full stop, you should've done a go-around in the first place.)
As I said before, I find it much more important to teach proper go-arounds. Touch-and-goes, I think, should only be used if you're practicing landings (with or without an instructor) and you don't want to spend time doing endless taxibacks. But touch-and-goes for the sake of touch-and-goes...?
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Backpacker
The obvious is landing too long on a fairly short runway with not enought stopping distance very very easy for a first solo student to do with no experience.
I have even seen a new PPL do that domolishing a hedge at the end of the runway when if he had touched and gone there would have not been a problem.
To say that a first solo should have judged it all and gone around is asking a bit much?
The other probably less likely is a runway obstruction!
Totally untrue!!! Unless you have almost stopped when you decide to go I have touched and gone in a private jet and twin with no more than 200 metres ground roll for real reasons.
You dont give him the proper tools to deal with that situation? Crazy!
Pace
The obvious is landing too long on a fairly short runway with not enought stopping distance very very easy for a first solo student to do with no experience.
I have even seen a new PPL do that domolishing a hedge at the end of the runway when if he had touched and gone there would have not been a problem.
To say that a first solo should have judged it all and gone around is asking a bit much?
The other probably less likely is a runway obstruction!
touch-and-go will almost certainly require a longer distance than a full stop
You dont give him the proper tools to deal with that situation? Crazy!
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Jan 2011 at 17:11.