Is it really so bad?

[CharlieDeltaUK]

I'm new to flying - still a PPL student. So, I'm starting to read around the subject and soak up knowledge with the aspiration of eventually being safe and competent.

But, what do I find? Looking at this forum, I'm beginning to think that I'm doomed to be surrounded by conflict and disdain....there's an ongoing theme about ATCOs apparently thinking that GA pilots are a nuisance at best and a liability at worst. There's talk of how EASA is going to spoil everyone's fun. There's threads explaining why most PPLs don't even bother to keep up their licence. There is seemingly a mountain of materials full of acronyms which are there to provide sport for those who revel in showing how most people misunderstand and are simply inept. I see there are debates from the professional pilots about whether GA pilots should ever be let loose in a cockpit. There are posts which suggest that the weather will defeat any serious attempt to actually go somewhere, and if the weather doesn't stop you, controlled airspace will...and so it goes on

I haven't seen such despondency until we had our first kids and everyone seemed to gleefully tell us how it was going to be hell for the next 18 years.

Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?

[J.A.F.O.]

Flying as a hobby is very expensive and time consuming.

Most professional pilots and air traffic controllers are just about right in their opinion of many GA pilots.

EASA is probably going to spoil a lot of things that didn't need spoiling.

Lots of PPLs don't keep flying in the long term.

I misunderstand a great deal and am often inept.

The weather will often defeat you, controlled airspace will sometimes confound you.

Just like kids, it's still worth it. Anything with the capacity to make you feel so alive and see the beauty in the world (kids or flying) is worth the pain.

Merry Christmas.

[chris-h]

Dont forget, this forum brings out some good points and all of the bad points.
Just like watching the news! The whole Controlled Airspace thing shouldn't worry you because ATC can only say yay or nay and if the latter then fly around, over or underneath...

I wouldn't throw away the chance to change your identity as a person with fun you and your family,friends will never forget based on a forum.

I think most pilots have loved aviation since being children etc so if thats the case i think the only regret you may have in say 5 years time if you quit now is that you quit.

[L'aviateur]

PPRuNe is like the Daily Mail of the Aviation Industry, you'll find a lot of whinging, moaning and rose tinted discussions of the good old days. Heck, the good old days were probably great, but don't be disillusioned by it.
There are some great members on here, and some great advice to be gleaned.
However once you're up at 2000ft pottering around, thats when its all worth it.
I've never had hassle with any form of Air Traffic Control, in fact quite the opposite. I haven't found any problems with the JAA or EASA situation, but then I've never known anything different. I've never come across any professional pilots who have looked down upon me in my flying, but have come across many who still fly GA and have some great experience to give (and few others who have struggled to fly a SEP having not flown one in years).
The acronyms will come with time, once you've got your head stuck into the books, most of them will make sense. Sometimes you'll find people on here who rarely fly, or even have lapsed licenses who get on their high horse and tell the rest of the world how it should be done, well just ignore them.
There is another forum related to a popular aviation magazine, which is a lot more biased towards the Private Pilot and you may find it a bit more accomodating to your needs.

[Katamarino]

You will find that most pilots are absurdly conservative and tame, and for them a trip across the Channel to Calais is the equivalent of an epic adventure. However, any pilot with a bit of get-up-and-go will soon find that you can do rather more than this. I flew down from Rotterdam to Tunisia to tour the desert a bit this summer, and when I was planning it was told I was crazy; by a pilot who I am fairly sure had never flown more than 50 miles from base!

If you ignore the more cowardly and pessimistic lot, you'll find that there is still a huge amount of potential for fun with GA. I've flown coast to coast across the USA, flown through Europe to Africa, and all of it VFR and with very little hassle. In 500+ hours, I have only been delayed by weather a handful of time.

[Pace]

It was announced today that EASA have made major regulatory changes.

The commissioner recognised that the industry is choked with excess expensive regulations. The Commissioner said that as their mandate is safety that will be their guiding force while unclogging the system of all the junk that has so added to the costs of aviation in Europe.

He also announced that EASA had noted the safety benefits of IFR flight and the good record of the IMCR and are modelling the FAA IR to create a European PPL IR for use throughout Europe. It will be a lower airspace IR with certain limitations but reflects the new attitude of EASA in making aviation more user friendly and less expensive while maintaining and improving safety.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN FATHER CHRISTMAS ???

Pace

[Johnm]

EASA as a regulator is causing no small issues due to being political, bureaucratic and arguably incompetent. This makes life in aviation far more complicated than it needs to be.

However actual flying (as opposed to the admin affecting licences and maintenance) is a procedural activity. At its simplest procedures are following the Pilot's Operating Handbook, reviewing NOTAMs and weather and flying a non radio light aircraft. Many people do this and get a great deal of pleasure from it.

Whatever level of flying you do the key is to learn and follow the relevant procedures, most of which you should become familiar with through your PPL training. After that it depends on whether you want to fly more complex aircraft and gain instrument qualifications.

If you approach flying with an attitude of professionalism you'll get a lot of pleasure from it I'm sure.

Take a look at AOPA as well.

[Sciolistes]

Charlie,

PPRUNE is an enigma. Aviation folk are generally the most amiable, sociable and positive can-do individuals you'll meet compared to any other endeavour, and yet pproon can give such an opposite impression.

You'll soon realise that many private pilots are ATCOs and airline pilots as well any other walk of life and realise that much of the negative stuff you read here is almost entirely subjective.

For an idea of how to go somewhere in a GA aircraft I suggest you read Peter 2000 (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/index.html). I suspect he is one of the regulars.

[IO540]

There is a lot of negativity in pilot forums, but that is just a reflection of flying being a fair bit of hassle on the ground.

Once you get airborne, it is wonderful :)

And there are various ways to minimise or eliminate the hassle.

Flying just happens to be a grotesquely over-regulated (relative to the 3rd party risk) activity...

[MichaelJP59]

Also, I think you find that the forum is just that, a forum for airing views. As such you shouldn't think it is a good representation of the actual activity we're discussing i.e. leisure flying.

For example, it's not often anyone writes about the sheer pleasure of actually being up there and viewing the world from on high - revelling in the sense of freedom that it gives you. That's because most of that is taken for granted, so it's mostly the unusual, the annoying and the worrying things that get talked about.

[BackPacker]

revelling in the sense of freedom that it gives you.

True. We've all been there, done that, know the feeling. Reading about yet another magical flight becomes boring after a while. Unless it's first solos or somebody doing something really spectacular - you might want to read some of Sam Rutherfords post for that.

I'll just add one of those "magical, but boring" stories here. Regular readers feel free to skip to the next post...;)

Last Saturday my license renewal finally fell on the doormat, making me legal again - the CAA must've been busy 'cause it took them a month to process. And I needed a clubcheck anyway, so I booked the R2160 and an instructor for an hours lesson. The forecast was a foggy morning, lifting about noon. The aircraft was booked 13-15. A quick check of the NOTAMs showed nothing important, a flight plan was filed and I headed for the airport.

I got to the airport around 12 and noticed that a kind soul had already put the aircraft in the heated hangar, and the snow was rapidly melting away from the wings and fuselage. After some hellos and a cup of coffee I went to see the aircraft. It had recently gotten a new interior which had to be admired. And as much as I like a heated hanger, it's still quicker to remove the snow than to wait for it to melt. So I wiped the nearly-thawed snow off the wings, shoved it out of the hangar, closed the doors again and went back for another cup of coffee.

At one the fog was indeed lifting. Not quite CAVOK yet, but good enough for VFR flight. So we strapped in, refueled and took off in BKN020 conditions. The view at 1000' is stunning. 30 kilometers visibility. White as far as the eye can see, with all rivers and highways clearly visible.

We first head to the low-flying area for a PFL, after that to the practice area for a steep turn and a stall. I'm an aerobatics pilot and this instructor was not, so he was kind of surprised at my 75 degrees bank angle in the steep turn. 45 degrees would have been sufficient for him. And a stall with the stick to the back stops, keeping the aircraft straight with the rudder for 10 seconds, was something he didn't do too often too. "Oh, yeah, you fly aerobatics a lot, do you? Do you want to do some of them now too?" Of course. So we climbed to FL45 in what had become CAVOK conditions and I showed the instructor a loop, spin, half cuban, reverse half cuban, a barrel roll and a hesitation roll. Who said instructors are not supposed to like their jobs?

"What's next?" Well, it's been a while since I've flown on instruments, so give me some foggles and we'll see how this goes. Bad idea of course, since the AI had toppled multiple times during the aeros and was now slowly regaining the correct attitude. And the DI was out by 180 degrees too. But after we got that sorted I put on the foggles and start concentrating on keeping the dot on the line. First some S&L flight, descending, climbing, turning, climbing/descending turns, intercept a radial and then vectors to downwind. Flaps down, reduce power, downwind checks, all on instruments. End of downwind, pull the foggles off, turn to final and make a very nice landing. We vacate the runway via the only intersection that was plowed, and taxi onto our clubs apron through 10 cm of snow. Magical.

Later on we heard that Schiphol once again had to bring in 100s of beds for stranded travellers, runways had to be closed so that intersections could be cleared of snow and that it would take a long time before air travel would be back to normal.

[Rod1]

Flying is huge fun

On a PPL you can tour most of Europe for fun. (and I have)

If you want you can avoid 85% of the rubbish EASA produce. (and I do)

It need not be ½ as expensive as you might think. J

There can be a very good social side to it.

Contrary to what you may have read on this forum, there are actually more places to land, and more people involved in “enthusiast” GA than at any time since I started back in 1984.

Rod1
PM me if you want a chat

[Whopity]

Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?Nothing new in that. I recall my father telling me that you could only fly if you were super fit, and had to be able to hold a column of mercury by blowing up a tube. Looking at his logbook, he was used to flying in open aircraft at 15,000 feet without oxygen and in Blenheims at 25,000 in 1939.

For inspiration in flying go to a flying club; this is just a soapbox, compare it with Hyde Pk!

[Lister Noble]

To put a broader perspective on costs.
When people hear I fly they reckon I must be really wealthy.
Totally incorrect.;)
I sailed a lot,38 feet ketch,around most of Northern France,Belgium and Holland,expensive but not crippling.
I raced cars for ten years,horrendously expensive,even in my little sphere £500 per weekend and on top of that something quite expensive often broke.
Flying is the cheapest hobby I've ever had.
So don't be too despondent,there are some really nice people flying,try your local airstrip,LFA group etc.
Good luck and look on the bright side of life.:)
Lister

[POBJOY]

Charlie Delta
There is a lot of "fun flying" out there but probably outside of a club (although not always).
Small groups and friendly strips are out there (if you know where to look) but the "club thing" is training orientated and therefore has to follow the system that is imposed on them by the CAA, EASA, and the airfield where they are based.
Once out of the training mode you can get around to find out what people are doing to stay flying and enjoying it.(the LAA is a good start)
So its not all doom and gloom, rather more about making an effort to see how you can get the best out of whats available.
More effort in more fun out !!!
Good luck.

[soaringhigh650]

But, what do I find? Looking at this forum, I'm beginning to think that I'm doomed to be surrounded by conflict and disdain....

The reason why things sound so depressing here is because the experience of flying is far too damn good in comparison!

Ever since I've learnt to fly I've not looked back. It is an excellent mode of transport. If you've felt depressed after viewing these forums try looking at videos on flying on other sites.

Some of the issues that are discussed in these forums are important. The essence is that pilots want to continue flying safely and economically without limitations on accessing airports and airspace.

The sad thing is that there is a lot of over-regulation, over-taxation (particularly in Europe), and resistance to the activity often perpetuated by individuals on the ground who have absolutely no idea of what flying is all about and how fun it can be.

I would encourage you to keep flying and to really enjoy it.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?
Nah, mostly we just go flying.

However this is expensive and the weather doesn't always suit, so we can't always be flying. When they can't actually fly, many pilots like to chat about flying. For some the "chatting" takes the form of "whining".

There are a couple of things we do warn people off though:

(1) Do Not Pay Up Front.

(2) Don't imagine that the day after getting your PPL you will be able to reliably fly yourself to business meetings etc.

[Sir George Cayley]

Actually CDUK your post has brought out the best in contributors and many of the posters that have given their views are well respected 'movers and shakers' of the scene. And give sage guidance.:ok:

And I have to agree there is some fun to be had and good times ahead. It's just not going to be like it was.

For you, that doesn't matter as you will react to each new step along the way as we did when starting out last century :eek:

Two thoughts from my perspective. I saw many PPL's give up because they continued to rent flying club trainers or tourers after getting a licence. I likened it to renting a car from Avis every weekend.

No, you need to move towards ownership as a way of reducing hourly costs. There are a/c you can chuck £20 of fuel into and have an hours fun with. Also group or syndicate ownership defrays the cost and puts you in touch with potential fly buddies too.

Secondly, 30 to 50 hours flying a year is quite some time when you add up time spent prepping and then jawing after. So pick the days when the wx is OK. I had plenty of frights trying to fly on a certain day in iffy weather because I'd promised someone a ride. No, come back another day.

I warm to enthusiasm and hope that all the replies have fired you up. Be a pal and keep us all informed how you get on.

Blue skies

Sir George Cayley

[CharlieDeltaUK]

Thanks everyone. I'm not giving up - I hate giving up anything. I guess I just need to accrue some more time in the air so that I can put what I read into context. I'm at the stage of doing circuits prior to first solo, so that should be a rewarding experience:)

This winter weather means too much time reading and not enough time doing

[Lister Noble]

I fly around 20-25 hrs a year,just bimbling around East Anglia and that suits me well.
So if you join a group after you get your licence, you could fly those sort of hours really cost effectively.:)

[IO540]

For inspiration in flying go to a flying club; this is just a soapbox, compare it with Hyde Pk!

There is a lot of truth in that. However, nearly all the advanced concepts I have learnt (both the technical stuff, and operational stuff e.g. going abroad on long trips) from internet contacts which were for the most part picked up initially on pilot forums. Not so much Pprune as aircraft type specific user groups. I learnt very little in the schools/clubs which I hung around for the first couple of years.

[POBJOY]

I forgot to say
Buy a Turb and fly the pants off it !!!
Go on to you tube to see what fun they are having at Headcorn with the "ski's" and that has been going on since the 60's (Redhill before Headcorn)
So you see, its out there if you know where to look.

[AN2 Driver]

CD,

your post is pretty much what I've been thinking for a long time, not only here but just about everywhere these days. I have to admit that I may well be one of the more pessimistic folks around here, based on what I see happening in Europe since I came back to real life aviation last year.

Nevertheless, I took the plunge and bought an airplane of all things, because I could not leave the victory to the bureaucrats to scare me out of my passion for flying. I now spent a whole load of money getting an engine overhaul done, so I do intend to fly the next 2000 hours with this my machine.

I think a lot of us here have genuine concerns about our very future in aviation. We are under the most severe threat ever since aviation was born a bit more than 100 years ago. Sometimes I sit back and think to myself that with the attitude displayed by the regulators and governments (particularly in Europe I might add hastily) a lot of things would never have happened.

- The Wright Brothers would never have left the ground.
- Bleriot might have swam across the Channel but not flown.
- Lindbergh would have been stopped before he ever tried to do his historic flight, his aircraft would not ever withstand current demands on all sorts of regulations.
- The Berlin Airlift would not be possible, as Berlin has closed down two of the historic fields already and will close a third.


By all means finish your PPL and follow your dream. The sooner the better. I reckon, all the flights we have done in the past are all that nobody can take away from us in the future. Everything else, and it is you bet as good as anyone's.

[Pace]

AN2

The real demise started with 9/11 the Terrorists won big time with the USA claiming that the Terrorists would never win against the freedoms we fought so hard to achieve.
Look at the ridiculous state we are now in? The massive security industry that has evolved around 9/11?
On this side of the pond we then had the green attack again government seeing a mass of new departments, regulatory authorities all based around the Green issue and all to be paid for.
The cancer of Europe are artificially created jobs, goverment jobs, non productive jobs but the governments can claim that they have created employment.
Who pays??? but what a sham! Just got off the London tubes, thousands massing into underground trains dragging cases behind them. NO security.
A Terrorist? why bother with an aeroplane when you have such easy targets in other areas but aviation gets attacked from all fronts.
Security, fuel taxes, regulations you name it? aviation is the target because its an easy target and ripe pickings for cash strapped government.
An easy target for all these masses of governemnt departments in false jobs who have only one aim to create work to justify those jobs.
Who pays? Who looses all the freedoms?

Pace

[IO540]

Aviation will always be a magnet for regulation.

All decisionmakers understand the risks in ground transport, and the costs of a lost life have all been worked out, etc. Nobody really bothers about train crashes, etc.

Aviation is different. Deep down, everybody getting into a passenger jet has their fingers mentally (and many have them literally) crossed behind their backs, hoping the thing doesn't crash. (I certainly have, knowing the LHS will be a good pilot but the RHS is often just a "kid" wearing a fancy outfit; this is OK because a 737 can be easily flown single pilot... so long as the automation all works, which 99.999% of the time it does).

And almost nobody outside specialised aviation engineering areas understands how/why planes crash.

With GA, you don't have the passenger fear (in the sense that nobody has to fly GA as a passenger) but the public has the deep fear of a plane crashing onto somebody. This is extremely rare but the fear/emotion are there.

So aviation will always be a ripe area for regulation which in the GA case will be totally disproportionate to the public risk.

The lack of understanding by outsiders makes it a ripe area for empire building, too.

That was all going along fine before 9/11.

Now it's even better :) Every good for nothing twit who can bluff and wear a yellow jacket can walk into some good for nothing "security" job and order people about.

Regulation is not going to go away. The trick is to find ways to live with it. It's not hard.

I think EASA, when it has all shaken out say 5 years from now, and all the under the table bent deals have been done, will be a net benefit to VFR GA, which is the bulk of it.

And it's never been easy or cheap. Certainly getting an IR used to be easier, say 30 years ago, but overall little has changed. The cost of a PPL has probably remained constant as a % of average salary, over 40 years; I recall somebody from univ. (1975) who had a PPL back then.

[vee-tail-1]

The last year has been a struggle with bureaucracy, and finally my much loved aeroplane has a new set of paperwork and can be legally flown. During that year the hangarage charges continued, maintenance had to be done, and I am just about to renew the insurance, all in all an expensive business.

Whilst so grounded I visited the coast, and went hill walking, and took friends to see local sites like castles, lakes, etc.
Frequently in those same spots the distant sound of a Rotax motor could be heard high overhead, and eventually curiosity made me follow a tiny microlight aircraft to its base in rural Cardiganshire.

Some people still live the flying dream...an older couple with a Thruster microlight, based on a small field with a canvas hangar, close to an old mansion, and a little hamlet of aviation friendly people. No rent, no regulators, no hassle, they just go flying wherever and whenever they wish.

The dream of flying is not yet dead. :)

[AN2 Driver]

Pace,

The real demise started with 9/11 the Terrorists won big time with the USA claiming that the Terrorists would never win against the freedoms
we fought so hard to achieve.

Look at the ridiculous state we are now in? The massive security industry that has evolved around 9/11?


For commercial aviation absolutely. In GA, it depends. Small airfields are still pretty much the same, but when it comes to having your Mooney parked on an international airport, yes, the security is there.

I think much of the security hype has to do with two things. 1) the US's drive to overcorrect the lax and unprofessional security which made 9-11 possible (I don't think any carpet cutter knife would have made it past security in Europe) and 2) once that was initiated, the industry realized how much money was in it.

On this side of the pond we then had the green attack again government seeing a mass of new departments, regulatory authorities all based around the Green issue and all to be paid for.
The cancer of Europe are artificially created jobs, goverment jobs, non productive jobs but the governments can claim that they have created employment.

Concur. This combined with a general attitude of envy against anyone who dares to "have something more" even if the private plane cost a fraction of that guy's BMW or even Toyota Prius ecomobile. And it's frightening to see how many of those green/socialist folks are actually working in the industry!

Re targets: Aviation has from the beginning been a very popular terrorist target and undoubtedly remains so. It is easier to blow up a train, but if you analyze who they want to hit, aviation is still the primary target. HOWEVER, that has nothing to do with the overkill post 9-11, the threat situation has not changed at all. There were nutters before and now. Yet, what is really depressing to see is that a buch of students with carpet knives managed to get the largest military power in the world on the run and give up it's principles instead of fixing what needed fixing and getting on with the job.

Best regards
AN2

[archflyer123]

I've been lucky enough to learn and fly around the Welsh borders, avoiding a lot of controlled airspace.

However, for my QXC I went from home at Shobdon to Leicester and Wellesbourne, talking to Birmingham, East Midlands and Coventry, and found them all to be incredibly helpful and some of the nicest ATC i've ever come across.

Also, on my first solo landaway at Wolverhampton, I managed to turn around on the deadside and report downwind, and despite my nerves and general stupidity, the controller was very understanding and quickly got me sorted out, even after a go-around. On top of all this, I even got a well done from the Police helicopter that I had been holding up with all my arseing about.

I've only ever come across one unpleasant controller in my 5 years of flying. Pretty much everyone I've come across has been professional and courteous, no matter how big the operation they're involved in. Maybe I've got lucky, but these experiences have let me enjoy my flying all the more, perhaps even when I should have been panicking a little ;).

Have fun!