Virgin Atlantic

[WHBM]

Manchester ends in March 2015, Scottish routes end in September 2015

Alas LBC Radio, in the "Business" commentator section :rolleyes: has just announced this as a news item, saying 'so that's it, a BA monopoly from now on'. Presumably they don't read press releases beyond the first line any more.

Meanwhile, Sir Richard, if you would only take a little notice of those of us who frequent the Aviation History & Nostalgia pages here, you would know we have a lot of experience of previous challenges to BA's lead on domestic routes. I recall Dan-Air having a shot at MAN-LHR (yes, not LGW) in the mid-1980s, that didn't last either, I once took one of the three per day flights, about 20 passengers maybe. BMI at least had a different approach and built up a significant business by the 1990s, alas one which still was apparently never ever profitable, especially once their Star Alliance partners started flooding their connections with commercially unprofitable interliners. At Little Red, where are all the commercial contracts for the volume accounts, the Scottish Parliament politicians and civil servants, the BBC journalists, the Royal Bank of Scotland, etc etc etc - afraid they remained over on BA.

[xray one]

Love it loath it, 'Virgin' is a strong brand. Why would you not include it in the airline name? Virgin Uk or something? Very little advertising, no advertising on the Virgin Atlantic aircraft...I just don't get it?

[Fairdealfrank]

Love it loath it, 'Virgin' is a strong brand. Why would you not include it in the airline name? Virgin Uk or something? Very little advertising, no advertising on the Virgin Atlantic aircraft...I just don't get it?


Made a very similar point, agree 100%.

"Virgin Atlantic" is a well known and familiar brand; "Little Red" means nothing, apart from a wolf with very big teeth (for those of us old enough to remember).

The lack of advertising and promotion can't have helped. It's tragic, a potential opportunity squandered.

Don't understand, any marketing expert out there able to explain this?

[Skipness One Echo]

Sorry chaps Little Red was not a branding issue. Diamond Service was to British Midland what Little Red was to Virgin Atlantic, a marketing moniker, but the airline name is down the side and on the fin, and bookable on the website of the same name.
The fact the service was named Little Red is to VS what Shuttle was to BA, we managed to figure that one out. This has squat diddily to do with branding.

[Flying.Penguin]

Sorry chaps Little Red was not a branding issue. Diamond Service was to British Midland what Little Red was to Virgin Atlantic, a marketing moniker, but the airline name is down the side and on the fin, and bookable on the website of the same name.
The fact the service was named Little Red is to VS what Shuttle was to BA, we managed to figure that one out. This has squat diddily to do with branding.

I agree entirely. I look at this development as good news for Virgin Atlantic as with Little Red running there was always a chance of Little Red running VS into the ground.

[Joe Curry]

Little Red running VS into the ground.

Eyes of the beholder? Little Red were hoping to feed long haul services from the regions into LHR. It failed spectacularly and now VS must try to run direct point to point services from the airports it turned it's back on.?

[Flying.Penguin]

Virgin will continue to operate and indeed grown from LHR, LGW, MAN and GLA. However there is more chance of me buying my own A380 tomorrow than there is of VS adding direct longhaul flights from ABZ and EDI.

[Joe Curry]

VS adding direct longhaul flights from ABZ and EDI.
Sounds like a cue for more copyright pics of exotic locations in Air Glasgow?

[xray one]

S O E

This has squat diddily to do with branding. IYHO...

There are numerous reasons why it failed, branding was only one of them. Not enough slots to compete, not situated in the same terminal to name but 2...IMHO

All I know is the those who wish to fly from LHR to Scotland and Manchester will, in the near future, see their fares increase markedly.

[Ringwayman]

Sounds like a cue for more copyright pics of exotic locations in Air Glasgow?

How about quoting the few words immediately prior to the bit you've selectively culled to make it read that VS will start elsewhere. Remember Virgin's new friend Delta have tried twice operating into EDI but couldn't make it work from both Atlanta and JFK. Now exactly where would any VS/DL effort from EDI go to? Oh, either Atlanta or JFK. Guess we won't see them flinging themselves toward EDI.

Not enough slots to compete

well this begs the question of why they bothered as they knew exactly how many slots they would be given so that can't be held as a reason for non-successful operations.

All I know is the those who wish to fly from LHR to Scotland and Manchester will, in the near future, see their fares increase markedly.

And if BA do that, passengers from Scotland will go on other carriers going to London and the MAN passengers will be on the Virgin trains operating every 20 minutes.

[xray one]

And if BA do that, passengers from Scotland will go on other carriers going to London and the MAN passengers will be on the Virgin trains operating every 20 minutes.

Who else flies out of LHR to Scotland and Manchester...BA will have a monopoly. As for the train, true, but most would prefer to fly if the price was right rather than dragging their cases all over London with the great unwashed.

Wee Willie is laughing all the way to the bank; he also wishes for other failures which will cost people their jobs...it's the business we're in, but i do find it distasteful when he revels in others miseries.

[Manchester Kurt]

Up against all the overseas carriers on these routes from Manc, Glasgow and Edinburgh.


We are hardly left with only BA to travel long haul.

[johnnychips]

Wee Willie is laughing all the way to the bank; he also wishes for other failures which will cost people their jobs...it's the business we're in, but i do find it distasteful when he revels in others miseries.

agreed, but SRB is hardly an unassuming businessman who efficiently runs his business without thought of self publicity. Nemesis.

[pallan]

Noticed that Virgin have opened a 'Future Flyers' programme in coordination with CTC Wings and that applicants would be trained onto the A330.

Are VS due any more A330's and if not, is this a) a sign of them possibly ordering more and needing more flight crew or b) are they planning to convert current A330 crew over to the 787-9 or c) just a need for more back up to cover retirements etc.

It had me curious as if anything I thought they'd be training people on the 787.

[EK77WNCL]

What do we reckon VS's fleet will look like in the future?

I'd have said that a future fleet of...

10 - A330 300's
16 - 787 900's
12(+) - A350 1000's
6-9(+) - A380 800's or 900neo (if its built, could be a better option)

Could be a good shout...

With the A330 300's being replaced with 6-10 A330 900neo's depending what they do some could be replaced at the top end with the A350 1000's?

A380 900neo would beat pretty much any option on CASM, A380 800/800neo could be allright but the 900neo offers more flexibility, unless they took both, which I very much doubt. With the 900neo they could have 6 in a 3 class, very spacious layout, 400-500 pax, revamped upper class suites, above industry standard premium economy and economy, talking 32-34" pitch etc. Maybe stuff like an economy bar/lounge, duty free shop, all the stuff the A380 was supposed to be able to offer basically... On top of that, giving VS the opportunity to show off the luxury and experience they were always famous for but seem to have lost a bit recently. They could then also have maybe 3 aircraft in a 650-750 pax configuration to operate leisure routes from LGW/MAN etc. To replace the upper end of the 747's.

The A350 1000 I think definitely has a good chance after Delta's A330neo/A350 order, this could replace the A346's at Heathrow offering a similar 3 class 320-ish pax configuration and then 400-ish leisure configuration for lower end leisure from LGW/MAN/GLA/BFS etc.

A330 900neo would pretty much repace A330 300's one for one or with some covered by the 789... The 789 just doing what it's doing now, some replacement, some growth etc...

[crewmeal]

6-9(+) - A380 800's or 900neo (if its built, could be a better option)


The Christmas spirit must have got to you. Virgin cancelled their orders for the 380 ages ago.

Merry Christmas EK77WNCL

[rog747]

virgin will not ever likely take the A380 nor its variants (if were built)
the new CEO craig has already said as much that its 6 options already deferred since from 2004 until 2018 will be cancelled outright or could be changed to a330neos or a350 order
but as it stands the 6 options are still in situ for the a380 with a 2018 decision time

twins and fuel eco are the way to go with VS

VS ordered 15 of the 787-9 - with options on ordering another eight 787-9s and purchase rights on a further 20 aircraft. for quick delivery which will see all the a340's and LHR 747's gone.
the 777x is being mooted as is the -10 version of the 787

the leisure 747's are a niche fleet at LGW and the outstations for a few more years yet but it's mooted the whole holiday fleet and those routes may get sold off to a buyer if found such as a tour operator so to concentrate on the Delta tie-up and the USA expansion

[parky747]

the leisure 747's are a niche fleet at LGW and the outstations for a few more years yet but it's mooted the whole holiday fleet and those routes may get sold off to a buyer if found such as a tour operator so to concentrate on the Delta tie-up and the USA expansion

Surely the leisure fleet business must be one of Virgins best profit centres! I here more to often LHR scheduled flights operate with poor loads and nothing more to add the shambles that is (soon to close) Little Red.

[rog747]

its all about yields and costs not ness load factors

the leisure fleet/routes may not be a good 'fit' with the delta expansion
747's are fuel heavy and do not seat many premium J pax

[Flightrider]

Rog, their 747s are said to be the most fuel efficient aircraft in the fleet on a per seat basis, so not sure where you get that idea from. On the leisure operation, I suspect if it makes money (which surely it does??) then Delta will like it. If it loses money, they'll dislike it. That's where their interest in anything starts, continues and ends.

[EK77WNCL]

I'm aware the A380's are looking doubtfuly, extremely doubtful... Impossibly doubtful, but I still think that, feeling brave enough, VS could definitely find a place for it both in their leisure fleet and, as I said, for a really high end 747 replacement, routes like JFK etc. (I don't know any more of VS's cash cows, if they exist). Even a 3/3 business/leisure split

Although it is wishful thinking the A350 1000 is more likely... Maybe 779 as they come with 789 commonality (IIRC) but I dunno, it's up to them at the end of the day. I think SRB would still have the A380's if he could, just for status, and I for one don't blame him.

[WHBM]

Surely the leisure fleet business must be one of Virgins best profit centres! I here more to often LHR scheduled flights operate with poor loads.
It may well be that the leisure routes give the best Return On Capital Employed. However, it is a style of operation that Sugar Daddy Delta's excessively paid execs doesn't understand, and if they don't understand it, then it goes.

If it does get sold off look for SRB to take it wholly himself.

[jackieofalltrades]

If VS were to take any of their A380 options they would most certainly be best suited on the LHR - JFK route. I could see possibly LHR - LAX/SFO working and maybe MAN - LAS a couple of times a week.

But, like other posters have commented, it is unlikely VS will get any A380s and if they do, I see it being for the status and branding. But that's just my opinion, and I have no scientific backing to that latter postulation.

[Armodeen]

MAN - MCO could easily take an A380 daily as replacement for the double daily 747 service. I don't know anything about gatters but I'm guessing that's the same.

[rog747]

virgin have deferred the 6 a380 options for the past 10 years with four more years left to finally decide until 2018
but the new CEO has clearly hinted they do not fit in future plans and VS are unlikely to ever take them up

SRB has also seeked for some time to offload his remaining 51% of VAA - thus he would not be buying the leisure fleet as a standalone company -
BUT now he has just ordered 2 cruise liners for almost £2bn for the new Virgin Cruises it beggars belief what may now happen as you need aircraft to fly the pax in for the ships unless he is purely concentrating on the US markets to fill them - could be all change who knows now

[LadyL2013]

I will be very sad to see the 74's go, especially Lady P who first got me into aviation. Was hoping to fly her home from JFK as she regularly operates VS9/10 but she went in for maintenance a week before:(

[116d]

Two questions about the rumours above of the 'leisure' operations being sold off...

1. Who would buy it/want it?
2. What would happen to Virgin Holidays who surely contribute a decent number of passengers to the 'leisure' flights and have a 'V-Room' at MAN for use by Virgin Holidays passengers?

I'll believe that when I see it, but for now I'm inclined to believe it's rubbish, though stranger things have happened.

[Skipness One Echo]

MAN - MCO could easily take an A380 daily as replacement for the double daily 747 service.
In summer and school holidays, the reason that the A380 struggles to sell is that it needs to be consistently full and profitable all year.

[Artie Fufkin]

If Virgin wanted to restructure itself into a shape that allows Delta to buy it out, it would have to terminate UK domestic operations (done), terminate UK to non US destinations (still WIP but largely done) and sell off the beach fleet.

Highly credible rumour if you ask me.

[EI-BUD]

But is the restriction on the 49% limit that applies to Delta still not in place?

[Artie Fufkin]

I stand to be corrected, but the 49% rule is only there for reasons of cabotage.

A US company can buy out an EU company in other industries, but in aviation, it is impossible because under the open skies deal a US airline cannot fly internal EU flights or flights starting in the EU and going to anywhere other than the U.S. If all VA flights start in the EU and go exclusively to US, what is there to stop a takeover?

This is quite clearly the way VA is being reorganised. Get all flights to run London-US, take over, shut down unnecessary London offices, make all UK staff redundant, replace with US pilots, cabin crew and engineers.

[22/04]

What you are effectively saying is that Delta will buy VS out for its London slots.

But it wouldn't get all of them would it? like BA didn't get all of BMIs.

I suspect no one has quite decided this yet -it is most likely if VS can't be made profitable.

What DL have with VS now is a North Atlantic joint venture- I am sure that will be the focus of the VS strategy and will have to make money.

The crunch will be to see what they do as others say with the holiday business- they could keep Orlando and Las Vegas but ditch/sell the Caribbean routes - they certainly don't fit in with the rest of the operation.

If they ditch Shanghai for a US destination (and I think they will - national CC have apparently been put on to different contracts) - that doesn't tell us much- just more expansion of Joint Venture to say Minneapolis/St.Paul or Cleveland.

If they ditch routes where the slots are pretty useless for the US; Dubai, Delhi and Lagos and to some extent Jo'Burg then we will know the rumours are true. There will then be only one place it can all end.

[BasilBush]

There's no reason why DL wouldn't get to keep all of VS's LHR slots. The comparison with BA/BMI doesn't apply - BA had to give up some slots as they ended up being the sole operator on a number of routes, giving them a monopoly. Unless I'm mistaken there are no routes on which DL/VS have no competition ex-LHR.

It must be quite a tempting proposition for DL.

[EK77WNCL]

It would be a TERRIBLE shame if DL bought them out fully and I hope everyone with the power to do so stops it happening! I for one don't want EU aviation to turn into the shambles the US has, perpetual mergers, petty, greedy management and fifty-odd <50 seaters flying between anywhere and everywhere all day.

[Skipness One Echo]

It would be a failure on SRB's part to see Virgin Atlantic taken apart. He has to actively want to sell out and after the failure of Virgin Galactic, I doubt he'd want the publicity of pluckly lil VS fighting BA giving way to tiny little VS eaten by American giant.

[Fairdealfrank]

It would be a failure on SRB's part to see Virgin Atlantic taken apart. He has to actively want to sell out and after the failure of Virgin Galactic, I doubt he'd want the publicity of pluckly lil VS fighting BA giving way to tiny little VS eaten by American giant.
Looking at it from the outside with no axe to grind, it does appear to be the case that efforts were on concentrated on an unwinnable war against BA rather than on the development and profitability of VS.

First law of common sense? Don't fight battles that can't be won. There's no point.

Also, had allegedly puerile personality clashes been put to one side, maybe there could have been a deal/collaboration between BD and VS all those years ago, and both might still be thriving carriers.

Let's face it, their route networks perfectly complimented eachother, and this would have been the way to give BA a "run for its money" at LHR.

[Omnipresent]

It will be interesting to see what happens with the Summer 2016 schedule which should be announced sometime after September 2015. Will we see more non-North Atlantic routes go to add transatlantic capacity?

Regarding spinning off Virgin Holidays and the LGW routes, this was one option mentioned when Virgin was actively seeking a buyer for Singapore Airlines' stake.

[SWBKCB]

I would expect the 49% ownership rule to apply irrespective of the routes to be flown (i.e. US only).

[BasilBush]

The relevance of the 49% ownership restriction is that any higher non-EU stake would result in the airline ceasing to qualify as an EU- owned carrier. This is important under most bilateral agreements, where an airline has to be owned by either of the two parties to the bilateral. But if DL were to buy out Branson then the airline would still qualify under the EU/US bilateral, as a US carrier.

As for Branson's intentions, who knows. But it's simply wrong to say that he has never indicated any intention to sell. Back in 2010 he appointed Deutsche Bank to assess all options for the future of VS, including the possible sale of his 51% stake. His actions in selling out of other Virgin ventures (endless list...) shows that money talks. If DL were to offer an attractive price I'm sure he'd swallow his pride - as he has had to with Little Red.

[WHBM]

Delta puts restrictions on Virgin sizing


Delta Strikes Pilot Deal to Keep Jobs From Outsourcing to Virgin - Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-31/delta-strikes-pilot-deal-to-keep-jobs-from-outsourcing-to-virgin.html)


Delta can negotiate what they wish with their pilot groups, but it seems to me that this restriction of the airline of one country on an airline of the other country is not permissible under the Open Skies agreement.

"The union sought to protect the bulk of Delta’s U.K.-U.S. flying and ensure that Virgin doesn’t erode operations on other routes around the world."

No, Open Skies means you can't do that. Let's see if the CAA can be bothered to do anything about it though

[EI-BUD]

EK77WNCL,
It would be a TERRIBLE shame if DL bought them out fully and I hope everyone with the power to do so stops it happening! I for one don't want EU aviation to turn into the shambles the US has, perpetual mergers, petty, greedy management and fifty-odd <50 seaters flying between anywhere and everywhere all day.


Firstly to say US aviation has come through the ringer and post some serious consolidation the remaining big carriers are now operating on a sustainable footing. The enormity of the losses in the past was no way sustainable for the long term. A range of loco's are in the fold too, so competition does exist and these loco's are on the rise.

EU aviation is headed in the very same direction as the U.S. in the recent years. In the EU The number of carriers has declined massively and in the UK we had scores of airlines, but now we have a few big ones and a few small ones.

Unfortunately 'perpetual mergers' make commercial sense!!!

[PAXboy]

EI-BUD is correct about USA consolidation and Europe has a lot further to go. Sadly, VS is a spent force and will (now) remain a niche player. The failure of Branson and Bishop to do a deal in the 1990s (whose ever fault it was, let's assume it was 50/50) was the point at which VS could have become a real player but it failed and one carrier is gone and the other a shadow.

This only serves to emphasise the importance of consolidation.

(I've never worked for VS but am a satisfied customer of many years)

[CabinCrewe]

yes BD and a limited longhaul connecting network was going to be a rip roaring success.... BA would have had them for breakfast, dirty tricks or otherwise.

[Fairdealfrank]

Delta can negotiate what they wish with their pilot groups, but it seems to me that this restriction of the airline of one country on an airline of the other country is not permissible under the Open Skies agreement.
Yes, it's also not a good idea to make oneself a hostage to fortune, in the sense of tieing DL's rate of growth to that of VS's.


EI-BUD is correct about USA consolidation and Europe has a lot further to go. Sadly, VS is a spent force and will (now) remain a niche player. The failure of Branson and Bishop to do a deal in the 1990s (whose ever fault it was, let's assume it was 50/50) was the point at which VS could have become a real player but it failed and one carrier is gone and the other a shadow.

This only serves to emphasise the importance of consolidation.

(I've never worked for VS but am a satisfied customer of many years)Indeed, a point made in post 788.


yes BD and a limited longhaul connecting network was going to be a rip roaring success.... BA would have had them for breakfast, dirty tricks or otherwise.
As independent entities possibly, but with BD as part of the Star Alliance, with other Star Alliance longhaul and shorthaul feed, a more comprehensive BD/VS collaboration may well have worked well at LHR.

Not big enough to make BA/One World lose any sleep, perhaps, but enough to provide viable competition and choice to pax.

But we'll never know for sure.

[WHBM]

As independent entities possibly, but with BD as part of the Star Alliance, with other Star Alliance longhaul and shorthaul feed, a more comprehensive BD/VS collaboration may well have worked well at LHR.
One of the principal reasons for BMI's ultimate collapse was the extent of Star Alliance operations into Heathrow, both European and long-haul, and the sheer number of connecting passengers delivered by such carriers onto BMI domestic and short-haul flights. With the way that revenue attribution works for splitting out revenue between carriers on connections, BMI was getting just not enough to cover costs. Star Alliance was a real revenue One-Way Street benefitting the overseas carriers and disadvantaging BMI.


It wasn't/isn't an issue for BA connecting onto comparable routes, because BA with a full long-haul programme can collect 100% of the revenue, and how it is split up is just a matter for internal accounting. Further, BA's marketing etc generally ensured that the bulk of the connecting passengers on UK domestic flights were going on by BA, the number of other OneWorld connections onto American, Cathay, etc, is just a small fraction of what BMI was getting stuck with.

[EI-BUD]

The debate about bmi and Virgin being the perfect match has been debated long and hard and would have had its merits. The networks and operations would have been complimentary. However, the issue is one of scale. Even a combined bmi and Virgin would still have been small by comparison to BA.

Range of destinations ex London, range of airports ex London, generally scale of frequency of departures ex London and a good product to boot would always have given BA the edge. And it is working.

Sadly for the history books as another airline is gone. The upside here is that for Virgin, it has a strong backer and the brand is in demand. Lets hope it sticks around for the long haul, pardon the pun...

[Peter47]

DL can't acquire any more of DL but there is no reason why AFKLM couldn't acquire the 51% & effectively outsource the management to DL (although there is still the question of whether that would be considered as EU control). Would a DL manager who is an EU citizen be OK?

As far as the ALPA scope acreement is concerned, I would imagine in any case that a VA pilot could only fly DL metal if a US citizen but a scope agreement forcing DL pilots to fly DL metal is enforecable although may need to work for the next contract to be signed. Similarly DL & VS can agree on broadly a 50/50 split or whatever on their joint venture between the UK & US - isn't that what KL & DL (and before them NW did between the NL & US)? BALPA could probabaly go to a UK court and argue that any scope argeement limiting the amount of non US flying VS could do was illegal - isn't that why EU airlines must be 51% owned by EU citizens?

(I'd like to know what BALPA would think if the Allied Pilots Association tried ti limit the size of BA's operations to that of AA.)

[Peter47]

One further thought, might it be worth VS splitting itself into two, one serving the US & one to serve other routes. They could share certain support operations such as maintenance. Not sure who would own any minority stake in the latter - ASKLM?

Ant thoughts?

[Fairdealfrank]

As far as the ALPA scope acreement is concerned, I would imagine in any case that a VA pilot could only fly DL metal if a US citizen but a scope agreement forcing DL pilots to fly DL metal is enforecable although may need to work for the next contract to be signed. Similarly DL & VS can agree on broadly a 50/50 split or whatever on their joint venture between the UK & US - isn't that what KL & DL (and before them NW did between the NL & US)? BALPA could probabaly go to a UK court and argue that any scope argeement limiting the amount of non US flying VS could do was illegal - isn't that why EU airlines must be 51% owned by EU citizens?

(I'd like to know what BALPA would think if the Allied Pilots Association tried ti limit the size of BA's operations to that of AA.)


There is a difference: AA don't own 49% of BA.



DL can't acquire any more of DL but there is no reason why AFKLM couldn't acquire the 51% & effectively outsource the management to DL (although there is still the question of whether that would be considered as EU control). Would a DL manager who is an EU citizen be OK?



One further thought, might it be worth VS splitting itself into two, one serving the US & one to serve other routes. They could share certain support operations such as maintenance. Not sure who would own any minority stake in the latter - ASKLM?

Ant thoughts?


Is AF/KL in a fit financial state to buy anything at present?

[SWBKCB]

One further thought, might it be worth VS splitting itself into two, one serving the US & one to serve other routes

If the split was to allow DL to take ownership of the "US" version, this might well run into problems with the EU as it could be seen as a way of artificially getting round the ownership laws

[Cyber Bob]

22/04 wrote: "If they ditch Shanghai for a US destination (and I think they will - national CC have apparently been put on to different contracts"

No they haven't.

[flying apprentice]

Now 2014 has finished and this marks the new end to their financial year, is Mr Kreeger's plan going as expected ? Are vs on course to announce they are once again making profit ?

[flying apprentice]

Good to see VS announce a profit this year.

How much of this profit is due to the much lower oil prices ? Or would this profit be based on hedged fuel prices from times when it was a lot higher and hence we'll see an even more profitable year this year ?

Any possibility of some airshare ?

[Heathrow Harry]

"One further thought, might it be worth VS splitting itself into two, one serving the US & one to serve other routes."

since they only make serious money on the US flights the other airline wouldn't last long

the reason they're back in profit is thatthey are switching capacity to the US runs and cutting the other long-haul

[flying apprentice]

Heathrowharry

Perhaps they can call the part that flies to the USA something along the lines of 'delta' ;)

At least theyre living up to their 'atlantic' name now though.

[CKT789]

Will any of the LR fleet go back to EI at the end of the month when the Manchester flights end? Pretty sure they can go down to 3 for the EDI and ABZ routes til September.

[CabinCrewe]

Aer Lingus pondering post-Little Red aircraft deployments - 11/5/2014 - Flight Global (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/aer-lingus-pondering-post-little-red-aircraft-deployments-405658/)

[flying apprentice]

Any sign of airshare ? Or is it just going to be bonuses for the board ?

[BasilBush]

Press coverage normally puts Branson in the non-Dom category, such that his worldwide (non-British) income is shielded from UK tax. If Labour gets in and scraps the non-Dom principle, would Branson be happy to have his tax bill increase massively? Or would he give up his UK citizenship and retire permanently to the Caribbean?

If so, how does that leave the status of Virgin Atlantic as a European airline for bilateral purposes? It would be difficult to maintain the pretence that Virgin is owned by "European persons".

[wesleyscott]

i got my airshare in last months salary

[flying apprentice]

Finally trimming the fat and losing all those unnecessary managers ?

Virgin Atlantic airline to cut 500 jobs - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-33335434)

[PAXboy]

In the UK. On Tuesday 7th July. ITV. 21:00. "Virgin Atlantic: Up In The Air". 30th birthday.

[ManUtd1999]

Any news/predictions on the rumoured new aircraft order? They've got the 747 "beach fleet" at Gatwick to replace with A350, 777X or 787 mooted as potential replacements. Also, how does the A330 fleet fit in? I understand they're leased and they always seemed like a bit of a stop-gap with the 787 delays, so is the long-term plan to phase them out?

I guess the 787 would be a nice choice to potentially have a one-type fleet in 5-10 years, with the -8/-9 replacing the A330 and -10 to provide capacity at LGW. Alternatively the A350 (or even a Delta style A330neo/A350 mix) would keep the Airbus/Boeing competition, which could be more valuable than the single-fleet efficiency. There's also the A380 deposits to be considered...

[NWSRG]

Given that the LGW fleet seems to need the capacity of the 744, would 779X be the way forward there? Only 6 or so required...but if the 787-10 is capable enough (and I think it has the legs) then that would be my bet. Sacrifice some capacity, but increase flexibility across the fleet...for example, even MCO can't support 2 x 744 all year round. But possibly 2 x 7810 increasing to 3 x 7810 in peak season?

[topofthegap]

Hi guys,

I know this has been covered before but I can't find any information on interview questions. I've trawled through previous threads but I keep coming up short. Can anyone please help?

Thanks in advance!

[jdcg]

VS rumoured elsewhere to be dropping Lagos, having laid off all their Nigerian cabin crew. Any truth to this? My Nigerian neighbours always flew VS in preference because they arrived at a "safer" time of day for onward travel!

[Cyber Bob]

The route isn't being dropped. They have released the Nigerian national crew that operate this route. This route will now be served with UK mainline crew only

[blackbeard1]

Virgin says no, "Virgin Atlantic Airways has no plans to pull out of Lagos route, we are committed to continue delivering the experience our customers love whether they are flying for business or leisure."
?Virgin Atlantic Airways has no plans to pull out of Lagos route? (http://www.bellanaija.com/2015/11/08/virgin-atlantic-airways-has-no-plans-to-pull-out-of-lagos-route/)

[Skipness One Echo]

There's a list of airlines who say this on Monday and on Tuesday pull the plug, the chap saying this is on the marketing team. It depends how much value this adds to the Delta JV. As for being commited to Nigeria, well Virgin Nigeria anyone?

[jdcg]

I would imagine that Nigeria is quite a lucrative market for VS, with some transfer from Delta. They are certainly very popular amongst the British Nigerian community.
I'm sure that VS is committed to flying there, as long as they don't have to get too involved with Nigerian businesses again!

[Standard Jet Dep]

LOS is one of VS most lucrative routes so I would be extremely surprised to see VS leave there. Good connection traffic from the US as well as healthy loads ex LHR not leaving out good cargo traffic as well. The idea seems to have sprung from some rather sensational reporting in the Nigerian media. Sadly the Nigerian crew are to very soon become no more. HKG,PVG,DEL crews are also being badly affected by job losses as well. So sadly Skipness you are a little wide of the Mark. However, nothing these days would surprise me.

[Spitfire boy]

Interesting disclosure communication to travel agents today.

Stop Press 852: Virgin Atlantic International Limited (VAIL)


We need to let you know about the set-up of our new airline Virgin Atlantic International Limited (VAIL), which will commence operations from Wednesday 25 November 2015. VAIL will have its own Air Operating Certificate (AOC) and Operating Licence.

VAIL's services will be operated by Virgin Atlantic's existing team of pilors and cabin crew, using two of our A330-300 aircraft, and will be flying from London Gatwick to Barbados, St Lucia, Antigua, Grenada and Tobago. All flights will be operated under VS/VIR flight numbers.
Although you will need to inform your customers that their flight will be operated by VAIL on Virgin Atlantic's brhalf, there won't be any any changes to their overall customer experience.
Our other flights to the Caribbean- inclusing our 747 services - will continue to operate under Virgin Atlantic's existing AOC.

[EK77WNCL]

That's confusing, what does that mean?

[22/04]

Perhaps in the short term that they want to operate these aircraft under different terms and conditions e.g. staffing agreements than the rest of the fleet.

In the long term I am not sure that the DL/VS management see the Gatwick Caribbean holiday routes as really a fit so maybe this would ease the sale of this part of the business.

PS I cannot substantiate the above- just my thinking on a Rumour forum/

[Waldo1]

Surely someone proof read that before publishing it? I know we can all be lazy with our spelling but if that was cut and pasted from an official press release then someone needs a good boot up the hole....

[Fairdealfrank]

That's confusing, what does that mean?

Perhaps in the short term that they want to operate these aircraft under different terms and conditions e.g. staffing agreements than the rest of the fleet.
That is what it sounds like. Different terms and conditions for staff at different airports, bit like BA(?).


In the long term I am not sure that the DL/VS management see the Gatwick Caribbean holiday routes as really a fit so maybe this would ease the sale of this part of the business.

PS I cannot substantiate the above- just my thinking on a Rumour forum/ That would be a shame, maybe it doesn't fit the "Delta Atlantic" longterm business plan.

Would this be the end of VS at LGW? Might it be bought by BA?

[cornishsimon]

isn't the VS LGW operation more or less a duplication of the best bits of the BA longhaul operation ?




cs

[Skipness One Echo]

Would this be the end of VS at LGW?
This is interesting, the begininng of LGW becoming an arms length subsidiary with a view to a sale as it's not a core component of the Delta JV?
Why only the A333s? Maybe something like the two BA A318s on a different AOC at LCY, the point of which was soon forgotten.....

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Virgin Holidays? Virgin Sun?

I'll get my coat....

[OntimeexceptACARS]

...or maybe set up to operate A380s in the long term? Maybe not.

Anyone know the latest on the ever delayed (and possibly forgotten) Flying Forehead order? With the recent fleet attrition, they look like even less of a fit for the airline.

Maybe an A350-1000 order, with most of the A380 deposits saved could be a future option, with the leased A330s going back before too long.

Sorry, I bought the ticket to Speculation Central, possibly heading for Wideofthemarksville. :}

[kcockayne]

Nevertheless, not bad guesses !

[Fairdealfrank]

isn't the VS LGW operation more or less a duplication of the best bits of the BA longhaul operation ?




cs


It's certainly a less frequent one. Don't think any of VS's West Indies routes are daily.



...or maybe set up to operate A380s in the long term? Maybe not.


Maybe the words "VS" and "A380" should not be used together. It looks unlikely that A380s are in the DL grand master plan.

[cheesebag]

Off current topic slightly... What's happening/happened to the retired 744's?

[cornishsimon]

Aren't they resting in the desert or being broken up ?


cs

[Skipness One Foxtrot]

G-VFAB went to Goodyear, Arizona, 21 years old B744 unliekly to find a new home I think.
G-VWOW ended up in San Antonio, only 14 years old but the scrapman awaits?

[vs69]

G-VWOW has a different ending awaiting her. And it may still involve having a V on the tail...

[cornishsimon]

Flybe codeshare with Virgin Atlantic announced covering the following routes:


Manchester:
Aberdeen Amsterdam Belfast City Paris Düsseldorf Edinburgh Knock Exeter Hannover Jersey Milan Newquay Rotterdam Southampton


Glasgow:
Belfast City Birmingham Cardifff East Midlands Southampton


Gatwick:
Newquay

[wesleyscott]

Seattle from Heathrow next Summer replacing the Delta metal. Also, JFK from Manchester from 1st June replacing Delta also.... joint venture at work

[beardy]

I wonder how the respective unions were persuaded to accept Virgin Atlantic as Delta's loco arm.

[Peter47]

Yes but DL I believe that taking back VS's DTW - LHR and one of the daily ATL - LHR services so its just a transfer of routes with little difference in flying hours. (I believe that there is an agreement between DL & ALPA limiting VS flying but others will know more.)

Right VS has premium economy product. I think that DL is introducing one but right now only has extra legroom seats. I don't know if this has anything to so with flying the SEA route where the main competition is BA.

The swap would appear to be logical - DTW & ATL are major DL bases and many passengers will be transferring from domestic DL flights so will receive the same product throughout. DL doesn't have the same brand awareness as Virgin in the North West so it makes sense for VS to fly it. Just my thoughts. Everything may change again in a years time.

[PAXboy]

If the DL 'PE' is only more legroom then it ain't the kind of PE that is worth having. VS and SQ have recliner seats that give a lot more than ordinary seats with increased pitch. So, if VS is go against BA to SEA, the VS product us better as BA only have ordinary seats in PE.

[Ph1l1pncl]

BA have different seats in Premium Economy to economy seats, they are bigger, wider and recline further back and have a bigger to screen and a business class hot meal on the tray.

[Andy_S]

.... and a business class hot meal on the tray.

Not always the case, by any means........

[caaardiff]

Having travelled VS in Economy, Premium Economy and Upper I must say I prefer PE by far.
Upper was good for a long flight, but not perfect in comparison to other Airlines First Cabins.
Premium Economy has a bigger, wider seat, good recline, more space on the armrests and generally a more spacious feel. The meal and general service is better and I think bigger TV screens.
Economy is sufficient if you don't want to upgrade. Have sat in exit rows in economy before, which was great legroom, but no extra width so not as comfortable.

[Mr A Tis]

a business class hot meal on the tray

My last 2 PE flights on BA had meals served off the same economy trolley.
You just get served first thats all.

[GayFriendly]

There must have been a catering issue on your last two flights in PE, I am crew for BA you do get served first and yes trays are exactly the same as WT so they are all loaded together in same trolley BUT the hot meal part of your meal is a choice of two CW entrees which is in the china dish bigger and quite different to the WT hot entree in a foil packet

[Andy_S]

Well, there must have been a "catering issue" on both outward and return flights of my BA WT Plus journey in that case......

We did indeed get Club meals on the outward leg, except one of the two options ran out by the third row ("you can have an economy class meal if you prefer...."). And coming back, breakfast was a stale croissant and carton of orange juice for the whole Premium Economy cabin; I don't believe for one moment that this was a club meal..... And BTW,there are no toilets in WT Plus on 777s; you're queuing up with WT......

Oddly enough, my allegiance has changed to VS.

[CaptainDoony]

And coming back, breakfast was a stale croissant and carton of orange juice for the whole Premium Economy cabin; I don't believe for one moment that this was a club meal....

Main Course of the main meal is the club world meal options. The second meal is a standard Economy meal.

[Ph1l1pncl]

Your main meal will always be a choice of the two club world entrees, first choice is never a given unfortunately, often crew may phone Club and see what they have left as they may have your original choice in PE leftover in Club. Second meal is always the same as economy. And the cabin crew preload the main meals onto the tray in the galley, they also have a set of economy meals on top of the trolley as after you are served they continue serving the economy passengers. Just makes the service quicker so you can rest for longer. You can always pre pay with the enhanced meals or pre order your choice so it's available before your flight now.

[CabinCrewe]

Varadero ex LGW and increases for BFS and GLA-MCO high summer S17

[Level bust]

Is Varadero instead of or as well as Havant?

[chaps1954]

Level bust I hope you meant Havana lol!

[Level bust]

Don't you just love predicted text!

[cheesebag]

As a side issue VROC has gone to join VEIL in the desert

[Mr A Tis]

Wow, this machine is only 12 years old, half the age of most BA machines.
Is it end of lease, or did Virgin own it?

[canberra97]

Level bust

It's in addition to Havant oh sorry I meant Havana ( I just had too ) :-)

Continuation of twice weekly LGW to Havana and and a new once a week to Varadero.

[caaardiff]

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-virgin-atlantic-to-take-12-a350-1000s-427197/

Confirmed A350-1000 order. Delivery 2019-2021 for LHR (360 seats) and LGW (410 seat) operations.

[Logohu]

Confirmed A350-1000 order. Delivery 2019-2021 for LHR (360 seats) and LGW (410 seat) operations.

Presumably the A380 order will now be quietly cancelled (if it wasn't already ??)

[VickersVicount]

they are being kept as a separate deferred option (for now)

[cheesebag]

I presume the 744 replacement?

[azz767]

It has been said the new A350's will be split between LHR and LGW, does this mean specifically those two airports or the fleets? So will MAN see the A350 on its LGW fleet 747 routes? I think its an interesting time for VS at MAN as they have said they see it as a hub, and are adding more routes in the future, on LHR fleet aircraft. Can we see besides whatever will take over MANs beach routes, MAN getting more of the LHR fleet or even maybe the 340's could come up here once the 350's start at heathrow?

[Skipness One Echo]

The A330s are more likely for MAN, with the exception of Orlando IMHO.

[chaps1954]

The A330 are on a 10 year lease are they not?

Ian

[22/04]

Yes but those can be extended - would take them to 2010-2012 as it stands anyway.

[azz767]

what for the MCO route then? As I said they said the 350's are for LHR and LGW, did this mean LGW specifically or the LGW fleet? If its for the LGW fleet they will probably replace the 744 if they are specifically for LGW then who knows?

[spannersatcx]

The A350-1000s will replace the carrier's remaining Boeing 747-400s and Airbus A340-600s
nothing else in their fleet that will carry 400+ to MCO, It says will fly initially to US destinations from London Heathrow and subsequently to Caribbean points from London Gatwick. so after the initial routes and no more 744's stands to reason they would end up at MAN at some point.

[azz767]

Is there any rotation in the a330 fleet? The same aircraft (G-VRAY) has been at Gatwick for a while now, and the two MAN frames (VKSS and VLUV) have been MAN based for similar amounts of time. I thought the MAN 330's rotated through ATL and swapped with an LHR one?

[PAXboy]

from 'Flying Club' by email
We’ve got some great news. We’re introducing exciting new changes to Flying Club over the coming weeks. From giving you a brand new membership number to making it even quicker for you to reach reward flights, there’ll be lots to make your adventures with us even more rewarding.

We’ll be keeping you updated along the way, and letting you know more about your new number before it changes. In the meantime, why not rediscover your Flying Club and find out what these changes mean to you as a Red member.
We all know what that means ... :suspect:

[All names taken]

'great news'
'exciting new changes'
'response to customer demand'
'make our services even better'
'great new product'
'improvements to our services'

All Newspeak for 'we are going to make things worse for you but lie through our teeth to try and persuade you that worse is better'.
Such is the mendacious corporate world these days.
George Orwell was a visionary wasn't he.

[22/04]

FC member so actually had a look at this and it's win some lose some.

The zoning means that some things become less mileage (East Coast US for example) and some more (West coast US). Yes fewer economy miles, and more flexibility for the airline within inflated tier bands. More overlap with Delta. The introduction of on-peak and off-peak helps if like me you holiday in the winter to get away from the dismal UK weather.

Of course fewer miles for base economy passengers but that's not who the airline is trying to temp with the FF programme.

The old system was dated compared with the competition and didn't really reflect the Delta JV an the US.

[PAXboy]

Well, I certainly agree with the approach of All names taken when dealing with corporates - hence my own posting. But, as always, you have to go through with a fine toothcomb to see if, as 22/04 says, which side of the comb you land up on. As yet, I've not had time to do that. Mostly, I also travel out of peak time - except next year when I have to go in peak! :*

[Seljuk22]

Virgin to introduce a 3rd daily flight LHR-LAX from 1st May to 28th October.

[OMAAbound]

I've only just joined the company, perhaps I'll have to change my avatar name?

Anyhow, from what I've been told about a/c bases,

• 787- predominantly LHR based, a possibility that it may take the MAN-SFO route during the winter due to strong headwinds and payload restriction.

• A330- these will be mainly based between LHR/LGW/MAN, they're also due for a refit soon as the UCDS is a complete failure from what I've heard and they want to bring it back into line with current/future design. Somebody asked what will run the MAN-MCO high density, I'd take a guess and say that not all A330's will be given UC for such a reason.

• A350- will start by phasing out current A330/340 routes from LHR, before moving down to LGW for the leisure routes. Won't end up at MAN as there won't be enough to cover both base.

A330/350 MFF/CCQ is going ahead as planned.

OMAA

[azz767]

That is a surprise, i find it hard to believe they will replace 744's with 330's as those 744's are full to the brim most of the year and the 330's will be a cut in capacity. So unless they have 3 daily 330's its a real loss.

[rog747]

THE 747'S AT LGW ARE TO BE REPLACED BY A350'S NOT 330'S

Maybe some 330 will do 747 work during the transition - the 330 has taken over already alot of 747 duties such as ANU UVF but the frequencies went up

[azz767]

I'm talking about MAN, the post said no 350's will be at MAN

[116d]

I've only just joined the company, perhaps I'll have to change my avatar name?

Anyhow, from what I've been told about a/c bases,

• 787- predominantly LHR based, a possibility that it may take the MAN-SFO route during the winter due to strong headwinds and payload restriction.

• A330- these will be mainly based between LHR/LGW/MAN, they're also due for a refit soon as the UCDS is a complete failure from what I've heard and they want to bring it back into line with current/future design. Somebody asked what will run the MAN-MCO high density, I'd take a guess and say that not all A330's will be given UC for such a reason.

• A350- will start by phasing out current A330/340 routes from LHR, before moving down to LGW for the leisure routes. Won't end up at MAN as there won't be enough to cover both base.

A330/350 MFF/CCQ is going ahead as planned.

OMAA

MAN-SFO is a summer-only route if I'm not mistaken? Unless there's a plan to make it year-round? I must admit I was expecting this route to be 787's when it was first announced as A330's are certainly not used to SFO from LHR.

As for the A350's, I'd be surprised if they don't get used on MAN-MCO. I have done this route a few times in the last 2 years or so (twice during mid-September and once early-March, so not exactly school holiday periods) and the 747's were never less than 90% full. On one occasion it was full!

I know it's all about yields as to whether a flight is profitable, but even outside the school holidays the route is clearly very popular.

[OMAAbound]

MAN-SFO is a summer-only route if I'm not mistaken? Unless there's a plan to make it year-round? I must admit I was expecting this route to be 787's when it was first announced as A330's are certainly not used to SFO from LHR.

As for the A350's, I'd be surprised if they don't get used on MAN-MCO. I have done this route a few times in the last 2 years or so (twice during mid-September and once early-March, so not exactly school holiday periods) and the 747's were never less than 90% full. On one occasion it was full!

I know it's all about yields as to whether a flight is profitable, but even outside the school holidays the route is clearly very popular.

Granted the A330's are smaller and much less dense in comparison. But as eluded to in my post the A330 Upper class will be refitted with the newer style you currently see on the 787. I'd imagine not all of the A330's will be refitted with upper class, but only Y+ & Y, similar to what they had before (Y+55, Y259) that's how I think they'll be fitted, perhaps 2/3 like this for the MAN-MCO routes.

The MAN-SFO, There talk of it during the winter, and I believe they have permission too, but only 2/3 weekly but it's not been confirmed yet

OMAA

[Skipness One Echo]

All the A330s are getting the Upper Class refit and WiFi, VS are not looking for Y only so far as we know. Once the B744s go, the high density leisure routes are going A350, the A330s are only on a ten year lease (as far as I know) and will begin leaving the fleet from 2021 as more A350s arrive.

[OMAAbound]

The A330's are on a 10 year lease with an option for extension. Likley they'll extends that after the refits have gone ahead.

Problem we have with the A330 is, it doesn't really fit into the fleet and it's stuck with exapansion. I think they like flying the 'shorter' routes we have, great for that but that's the niche, and that's where it's gets stuck when the majority of routes we operate are 9+ hours

OMAA

[Seljuk22]

Seasonal summer flights LHR-ORD to be cancelled

[Skipness One Echo]

Disagree the A330s are niche. They cover LGW/MAN Carribean beach fleet as well as DXB and East Coast USA as far as DTW and soon SFO. They're enhanced A330-343E machines, a long way from the original 1994 Aer Lingus transatlantic models in terms of performance PIPS. The only LHR routes they have not been seen on are LAX, PVG, HKG, CPT. (Missed some methinks!)

[OMAAbound]

Very true, but even with the enhanced performance, some routes would take a hit on payload due to performance rating.

There is 2 in our fleet with the enhanced Center tanks which will specifically operate the MAN-SFO and talks of the route going year round too.

OMAA

[Dobbo_Dobbo]

I had understood the intention was for most of the A333 fleet to end up at MAN to operate the growing network there.

That was on the assumption that the fleet could perform route sectors like MAN-SFO/LAX (realistically the longest sectors they would operate).

Perhaps if they only have two A333 in the fleet that can make it to the west coast, the frequency will be limited to 4x weekly (not unreasonable) but I don't see how the A333 would have the capacity to operate MAN-MCO.

[TCAS FAN]

Following the 'great news', 'exciting new changes' and similar c**p issued in November has anyone any idea when VS are going to sort out their online Flying Club pages and credit recent flights to your account.

Mrs TCAS and I flew in mid November and still do not have the Tiers Points and miles credited to our accounts. Have rang and emailed them many times and are told "in a few days".

Keep p***ing us frequent fliers off and we will eventually go elsewhere.

[canberra97]

BA are very quick in adding points and miles to my account usually within two or three days after travel perhaps you should move over to them considering you might 'eventually go elsewhere' plus you gain far more with BA compared to VS.

[TCAS FAN]

Canberra97

VS used to be quick but decided to change the format of their web site, including the Flying Club section to something that is far less easy to navigate. In my view a case of "if it isn't broke don't need to fix it".

The changeover happened while we were out of the UK, with the outbound flight credits, using the old system, going on okay. Still awaiting VS's pleasure receive the inbound flight credits. As you say may be about time to change.

[PAXboy]

The change in their reward policy is standard for carriers but agree that the new web layout for flying club is $hit. Some marketing kid has prolonged their job by convincing that it's not just a refresh that is needed but a whole new everything. Having to hunt to find things that you know must be there somewhere - is not called good web design.

[22/04]

I think the problem is that it isn't just the website but the entire passenger services system that has been updated and is based on that used by Delta who "won" the bid to update it. It was in their interest to do given the JV.

Virgin have adapted this (poorly) it works okay for a Joe who just wants to book a flight but for FF lots doesn't work - it doesn''t tell you have to change your password so lots have been locked out - all PNRs have changed- and there's lots that doesn't seem to work. I can't for example enter my passport details. It is rather Spartan and unappealing in terms of appearance but then so is the parent Delta site.

If I had created this mess I want to sort it out and test it before changing that again to make sure I didn't get another fine mess- I hope that is what is happening.

Still hopeful it will get sorted before my next flight in February

[TCAS FAN]

update on my #884

Finally managed to get the Tier Point credited, now battling to get the miles credited. This is complete farce, BA looking increasingly attractive for future Business Class travel.

Anyone out there experiencing similar problems with Flying Club? If you haven't done so already, suggest you check your FC account in detail for any trips made from early November onwards.

[airbourne]

Can anyone tell me the current loads on VS7 on Jan 28th?

[LAX_LHR]

Virgin to run a BGI flight from LHR (as well as an extra flight from MAN) on behalf of P&O cruises.

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/270942/po-cruises-partners-virgin-atlantic-for-caribbean-fly-cruise-programme

[PPRuNeUser0176]

VS first British airline to participate in TSA Pre Check which could cut times to 5 mins exiting US airports.

[TCAS FAN]

Have noticed on the VS website that flight arrival/departure times have deserted the 24 hour clock, who in the world (apart from TSA - Trump States of America) can get their head around 04.10 PM - time to rebrand as Delta (UK) Inc?

[22/04]

An aside but who in the world- India. 24 hour clock is widely mis-understood if you use it there.

It is a modified DL website of course- as they "won" the contract to provide a new PSS

[Laughing Frog]

Does anyone know what a/c Virgin will be using for the P&O charters next winter TIA

[PAXboy]

Before I comment on my two sectors on the 789 (LHR-JNB-LHR) would anyone like to share their experience?

[rog747]

Before I comment on my two sectors on the 789 (LHR-JNB-LHR) would anyone like to share their experience?
787-9 to MIA vs117 2 weeks ago in Upper Class 10/10 100% superb

best flight on VS in many many years great food fab crew and the hype about the 787 is all true you get off fresh and not dried out or overly tired nor any jet lag

went down the back to try the Y seats and loved the very back row 66abc - loads of legroom recline and seat bottom slides forward on recline giving leg support - very happy with that if i was down the back next time

[PAXboy]

Thanks rog747 interesting. I was in Premium Economy. How did you find the fancy windows? (other than turning to look at them - just to save folks the trouble ... :hmm:)

[Mr Mac]

PAXBoy
I have not been using them in a long while due to not trying to use LHR, and not having to go West that much. I thought I was going to have to start using them on Man - Atlanta and then on to Houston with Delta as I have work there. Luckily good old Singapore started the Sin- Man - Houston route in time, so I have been using them and being very pleased up to now.


Colleagues who do use them say service can be hit and miss, and also quite a few have said they do not like new Business class layout.


You seem to infer you had an "interesting" trip, what went right or wrong ?


Regards
Mr Mac

[rog747]

Thanks rog747 interesting. I was in Premium Economy. How did you find the fancy windows? (other than turning to look at them - just to save folks the trouble ... :hmm:)
re 787 windows
if you sit in upper in middle row in Upper (G seats) then one can see quite well out of the windows opposite you
as it was a day flight most windows were not dimmed dark completely and cabin was large tall and spacious very airy -

787 all the way for me lol

came back from ATL in Prem had front middle row 20 DEG to ourselves which is best row in W on A330 unlimited leg room - unlike rows 18 or 19 pairs by the windows where you cannot stretch your legs out which is terrible for paying out for W
- I do not like the A330 at all - got off dried out tired and jet lagged despite 3 hours kip on a 7h 20 min quick flight
FOOD WAS DISGUSTING IN PREM Y FROM ATL - AWFUL AWFUL AWFUL

[DP.]

G-VFAB went to Goodyear, Arizona, 21 years old B744 unliekly to find a new home I think.Apologies for quoting quite an old post here, but I just came across this (https://planetags.com/products/virgin-airlines-lady-penelope-boeing-747-planetag-tail-g-vfab-1) - indeed she didn't find a new home in one piece, but you can buy a bit of her yourself now.

[cheesebag]

I indeed own a piece of her tail!

[cheesebag]

I'm off to HKG on Saturday night in PE so will report back.

The A330's are all having their Uppers refit over the next 12 months due to negative customer feedback.

[Wycombe]

but you can buy a bit of her yourself now

Could be tempted, first flew in VFAB LAX-LHR in June 1995, when she was quite new (and so were seat-back TV's!)

[PAXboy]

Thanks for that. Let me start by saying that I have been a big fan of VS for 31 years and have gone on the record. I have, of course, had some problems along the way but, to get three unrelated issues on one sector - does cause one to be annoyed.

I have been travelling PE (Premium Economy) with them since 1997 and liked the original product and the update even more.

The first problem was the software system change over that the company made in November. In this thread we commented on the change for Flying Club pages but a far, far worse problem had arisen ...

In the change over, bookings that had specific seat requests - were lost. If the company knew about this, they made no contact with booked pax. If they didn't know, they did not check that all requests had moved forward to ensure that their customers paying a Premium price would not be inconvenienced. Thus a set of very specific seat bookings for a very special trip were lost and it was only discovered a few days before departure when finding the wrongs seats allocated. Further, the cabin was fully booked and no seat movement was possible. In our party of four, two people had 'moved' from the A+C seats to the D seats and in separate rows.

Our agent discovered the fault was due to the software changeover only by accident on the morning of departure via a casual question asked by a VS agent she was speaking to.

We arrived at T3 extra early but were told there was nothing could be done and to ask a favour in the cabin. By this time, I had learnt that our return sector was similarly affected and we were all in the D+E seats. I went to the ticket desk to be told, "That sector has the PE cabin fully booked, there is nothing we can do."

The space problem was compounded by the A346 being replaced by the smaller B789.

On board we managed to beg the favour to get the two of us into adjacent seats but still in the middle block, which I abhor and have avoided for decades.

The staff on board all knew about the seat allocation problem and said it has been a pain since the day of the change over.

If you made a booking before the changover - then I advise you to check it. Booking our seats on 30th September to take my partner's parents (aged 78 + 79) on the trip of a lifetime was fouled up and I shall be waiting to see if any kind of apology will be forthcoming.

I know that dung happens but the fact that no checks were made or, if made, were not followed up is lazy and VERY bad customer service. My partner's father said, "I've always heard bad things about Virgin Atlantic - so I'm not surprised." I politely contradicted him by saying this was the worst problem I had had in 31 years of flying with them.

Thus endeth the first problem.

[Curious Pax]

Misleading of that website to say that G-VFAB was Virgin's first 747 as that honour went to -200 G-VIRG in 1984. VFAB, a -400, didn't join the fleet until 10 years later.

That concludes this afternoon's pedantry......

[nguba]

The Telegraph reports that VS forecasts a loss this year after a profit of £23m for 2016.

Virgin Atlantic set to plunge into the red as weak pound curbs profits (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/27/virgin-atlantic-set-plunge-red-weak-pound-curbs-profits/)

One wonders what would have happened that DL not bought out SQ's stake in the airline.

[wesleyscott]

AirFrance KLM buys 31% of VAA in new 4 way joint venture with Delta VAA

[davidjohnson6]

That's rather interesting in terms of airline ownership rules post Brexit

[nguba]

So Richard Branson has done what he said he's never do: Give up control of his baby.

[toledoashley]

Turning into a strange beast, which ultimately doesn't really forfil much. Cynic in me would say its to prop KLM/AF up, with the investment in LHR slots... Not sure what KL/AF bring at LHR, and they are at different terminals - and why would you want to connect through MAN, if there is a direct service from either AMS or CDG?

[Peter47]

KLM/AF obviously assume that Brexit won't affect ownership rules ... we will see.

I can't see many passengers wishing to transfer between VS & KL or AF at LHR as you can fly non-stop to CDG & AMS from just about any city with a route to LHR (although I haven't done a detailed check). It wouldn't really be worth any of the airlines changing terminals.

I said at the time that DL acquired 49% of VS that they really needed a 51% share - SQ was unable to influence things with their 49% share - but of course that it was not permissible and that AF/KLM should acquire a 2% share. Well they have gone further than that. However DL seems to be in control with a minority stake. VS is certainly in a better shape now than when DL acquired SQ's share, this year's loss nothwithstanding.

RB has often said that he gets bored with businesses and likes to move on. VS has been an exception, but maybe he no longer feels that it is his airline. Now that he lives on an ocean islands and seems more interested in spaceflight maybe that is what has happened. Either that or his empire is short of money.

[Mr A Tis]

I assume that this will bring VS into Skyteam ? The lack of being in one of the big alliances hasn't done VS any favours.

[Artie Fufkin]

I thought that the rules regarding foreign ownership (under EU rules) was that "effective control" had to be held by EU ownership. i.e. Air france/KLM cannot buy a share and rubber stamp Delta decisions? On the face of it, of course, "effective control" is with Branson and AF/KLM but if the regulator were to see AF/KLM blindly agreeing with everything Delta wanted it would fall foul of the rules. Disabuse me!

Besides, with the uncertainty of Brexit, it appears to be somewhat of a leap in the dark. I've seen a number of decisions recently within aviation that seems to imply that airline bosses think Brexit will have minimal impact on British aviation. What do they know that we do not?

[TartinTon]

Latest bailout for a failing company despite the hype. 3rd time now that they've needed a cash injection (SQ then DL now AF/KL). Last throw of the dice?

[HH6702]

Just shows that virgin is failing

[gopaisleygo]

ABBA - The winner (does indeed) take it all!!
Good luck to the VS guys out there. Hope there is some direction as a DL/KL-AF little fish. At first glance seems no more than a slot Jewel. Proud staff non the less.

[Artie Fufkin]

Latest bailout for a failing company despite the hype. 3rd time now that they've needed a cash injection (SQ then DL now AF/KL). Last throw of the dice?

SQ buying 49% share, I understand resulted in Branson putting (some of?) the proceeds into the business to buy the Airbus fleet, but how does DL buying SQ's share result in a "cash injection"? or KLM/AF buying part of Branson's share result in a cash injection?

[TartinTon]

You must be extremely naive to think that part of the Delta deal wasn't to shore up Virgin via some funding. As for the AF/KL bit, what part of the £220m don't you understand?

[Buster the Bear]

French Government will soon own part of Virgin Atlantic!

[Artie Fufkin]

what part of the £220m don't you understand?

Branson has sold part of his shareholding to AF/KLM. He (or "Virgin Group") owned the 31% of the company that has changed hands, therefore the £220m went from AF/KLM's bank account to Branson's bank account and no where near the Virgin Atlantic balance sheet.

Is it really that difficult?

[inOban]

Air France-KLM, Delta and Virgin plan transatlantic JV | Airlines content from ATWOnline (http://atwonline.com/airlines/air-france-klm-delta-and-virgin-plan-transatlantic-jv)
It would seem that the major cash injection is from Delta into AF/KLM. China Eastern are also involved.

[PAXboy]

Just been mail shotted with this: https://flyingclubhub.virgin-atlantic.com/news/introducing-departure-beach

Sounds like a good plan. Especially if you have late evenig departures and someone else has midday ones.

[Mr Mac]

Paxboy
Dont quote me but I think Virgin have tried this before, or somthing like checking out at your hotel also Barbados based I think. I stand to be corrected.

[inOban]

Aren't Jet2 offering something similar this year?

[goldeneye]

Just been mail shotted with this: https://flyingclubhub.virgin-atlantic.com/news/introducing-departure-beach

Sounds like a good plan. Especially if you have late evenig departures and someone else has midday ones.

Virgin have done something similar for years in Orlando, I did it in the late 90's, check in was in Downtown Disney as it was then.

[116d]

They do and it's still there at the renamed Disney Springs: -

https://www.virginholidays.co.uk/flight-information/virgin-atlantic

I believe there was a similar arrangement in place elsewhere back in the days when Air Atlanta/XL operated Travel City Direct-branded 747's to SFB.