Virgin Atlantic

[bad bear]

Some flights busy, some in single figures. The Virgin planes seem to use very little runway for take off or landing suggesting they are not heavy with passengers.

bb

[A320baby]

BB really?? :suspect:

[ETOPS]

EI crew in VS uniforms - they have all been really excellent

To be accurate they are contract staff employed by Storm McGinley but they were trained by Aer Lingus...

[SealinkBF]

Well done Storm McGinley and EI!

[goldeneye]

VS are to suspend its Accra flights from September, citing high fuel costs in Ghana and limited slots in LHR.

Source (http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?c=setreg&region=2&m_id=_rbT_bY!s~&w_id=9022&news_id=2006727)

[Fairdealfrank]

Up against a long-established BA daily service: failed to make an impact?

[Flightrider]

They're still in Lagos too.

[canberra97]

For now Lagos is.

But who knows what the future holds for even that route along with the long term future of Virgin Atlantic!

Other then the recent domestic routes which are actually flown by EI and the addition of a seasonal service to Vancouver plus the tie up with Delta but where is the expansion going to come from flying with their own metal?

Virgin also make a note of a lack of suitable slots at LHR when they have recently been leasing some to other airlines plus if they really wanted to purchase new slots then they have had every opportunity to do so just as other airlines have easily bought them recently.

Virgin Atlantic have discontinued the following routes Kingston, Mauritius, Nairobi, Port Harcourt and now Accra and I thought Africa was supposed to be booming and it is as I have seen it for myself but these so called emerging markets are where Virgin should be thinking of expansion especially destinations where BA dont currently serve.

I am surprised they have not tried a LHR to Kuala Lumper route where they could code share with Air Asia on their large network and make big inroads into the emerging markets of south east Asia.

It will be interesting to see if Virgin Atlantic ever do take up those A380s on order as I can not see where any future expansion is coming from unless they have them in a high density layout to Orlando.

Virgin need to make up their mind regarding joining an alliance and Skyteam being the most obvious because if they leave it any longer there will be no Virgin Atlantic as these routes need feed from both ends and without that the airline is doomed sure it has the future JV with Delta and hopefully the possible tie up with AF/KL but it will be interesting times ahead for Virgin.

[Peter47]

I've always been a bit surprised that DL are happy to acquire only 49% of VS. What they need was 51% (OK 2% would have to be owned by AFKLM to get around nationality rules but that that could give them effective control). They could then parachute in some DL managers and hopefully made a difference. As it is I don't see much of a difference beyond the UA codeshare being replaced with a DL one. SQ is one of the world's best airlines but this didn't seem to rub off on VS. Will things be different with DL? Are there significant changes planned for the future?

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I've always been a bit surprised that DL was happy to acquire only 49% of VS. What they needed was 51% (OK 2% would have had to be owned by AFKLM to get around nationality rules but that that could have given them effective control). They could then have parachuted in some DL managers and hopefully made a difference. As it is I don't see much of a difference beyond the UA codeshare being replaced with a DL one. SQ is one of the world's best airlines but this did not seem to rub off on VS. Will things be different with DL? Are there significant changes planned for the future?"

SQ weren't running VS and nor are DL. It's not like the relationship between LH and BD. Probably just as well, bearing in mind that there is, regretably, no longer any BD.

Could any potential AF/KL interest in VS be for LHR slots and little else?
AF tried longhaul from LHR when the EU-US open skies arrangements made it possible: it was not successful.

Why would Branson sell 2% to AF/KL anyway and turn himself into a minority shareholder?

[Peter47]

I agree with the last post (I've changed my post to the present tense given that the acquisition hasn't happened yet), but the question is should DL try to run VS akin to LH & BD? Branson wouldn't want that but I still wouldn't want to be a 49% shareholder in VS. My money could go the same was as SQ's.

On another issue, I'm a bit surprised that VS are happy to operate ORD & YVR on a seasonal basis. Doubtless the routes have a significant seasonal bias with higher yields in the summer, but I would have thought that they would not be able to make deals with large corporations and travel agencies so would miss out on high yield business business traffic. Any thoughts on this anyone?

[22/04]

I am surprised by ORD - but to operate YVR year round they may need to abandon Cape Town, which uses two aircraft and slots in the winter.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "I agree with the last post (I've changed my post to the present tense given that the acquisition hasn't happened yet), but the question is should DL try to run VS akin to LH & BD? Branson wouldn't want that but I still wouldn't want to be a 49% shareholder in VS. My money could go the same was as SQ's."

This is a good point about being a 49% shareholder in VS. DL must have some good reason because on the face of it, it does look as if DL would repeat the SQ experience.

As for VS being run in a LH/BD fashion: it didn't end well for BD!

Quote: "On another issue, I'm a bit surprised that VS are happy to operate ORD & YVR on a seasonal basis. Doubtless the routes have a significant seasonal bias with higher yields in the summer, but I would have thought that they would not be able to make deals with large corporations and travel agencies so would miss out on high yield business business traffic. Any thoughts on this anyone?"

Surprised there isn't enough premium traffic for all-year operations on these routes, particularly YVR, as there's only AC and BA on that route (once/day each).


Quote: "I am surprised by ORD - but to operate YVR year round they may need to abandon Cape Town, which uses two aircraft and slots in the winter."

Aren't aircraft being freed by the abandoned/suspended NBO and ACC, and by the switch to A330s on some routes?

[Skipness One Echo]

Chicago was a turning point. Up to that point, Virgin had launched and maintained a good quality, year round point to point service against BA et al to EWR (a Continental hub), MIA ( an AA hub), BOS, LAX, IAD (a United hub) and SFO (another United hub). The first North American failure was YYZ which never came back, indeed VS are having a half hearted go at YVR now. ORD is a large point to point destination from London but VS couldn't make it pay year round, they failed to break through. With the exception of LAS, it was their last major US route launch.

[ANstar]

Other then the recent domestic routes which are actually flown by EI and the addition of a seasonal service to Vancouver plus the tie up with Delta but where is the expansion going to come from flying with their own metal?

Cancun and Mumbai also spring to mind.... both started last year.

Also MAN-LAS which is now seasonal, but makes profits during the busy months (hence why going seasonal like ORD, YVR etc).

And speaking of the seasonal routes, presumably now the DL codeshares have been announced they will still be able to sell ORD, YVR direct on the VS website with a VS code even when they are not flying the route themselves in the off season.

[take-off]

How long is MAN LAS going to survive now TCX are up to twice weekly this year and 3 times a week next, plus undercutting Virgin by a fair chunk too??? :sad:
And the farce of offering Man Las in their holidays shops throughout the winter, via LHR and then hopping over to LGW with a free taxi slash bus ride to boot is laughable, even the travel assistant wasn't sure you could do it in one day??? :ugh::ugh: she did say at time they weren't expecting BA to axe MAN-LGW.:=:=

[DomyDom]

Recently attempted to book a holiday to Barbados from MAN online using the Virgin Holidays website which told us that our holiday to Barbados flying from Manchester was not avialable when we wanted to travel but showed it was available three days earlier however with no premium economy. However when we contacted Virgin Holidays by phone a very helpful assistant booked our holiday for us on that day we wanted to travel and with premium economy as per our request. My concern is that the Virgin Holidays website is driving away customers due to it providing incorrect information. Virgin Holidays really need to get their act together on this.:confused:

I think that VS will be able to compete with TCX as they provide a more upmarket product that people are willing to pay for, but that assumes that passengers can book the available flights of course.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Cancun and Mumbai also spring to mind.... both started last year."

Bombay was a restart, it had been suspended for a few months.

Quote: "How long is MAN LAS going to survive now TCX are up to twice weekly this year and 3 times a week next, plus undercutting Virgin by a fair chunk too??? http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif
And the farce of offering Man Las in their holidays shops throughout the winter, via LHR and then hopping over to LGW with a free taxi slash bus ride to boot is laughable, even the travel assistant wasn't sure you could do it in one day??? :ugh::ugh: she did say at time they weren't expecting BA to axe MAN-LGW"

This is ridiculous!

If there is demand, can VS not do MAN-LAS direct now that they have the A330s? Or would they need B787s for this?

Have to say that it all comes back to the lack of capacity at LHR (it always does!). Adequate capacity at LHR would have allowed all BA and VS longhaul to use LHR if required, and for feeder flights from a sufficient number of UK airports.

[VickersVicount]

"If there is demand, can VS not do MAN-LAS direct now that they have the A330s?"
They've always been able to do it direct, and an A330 would be no different.

[Skipness One Echo]

Bombay was a restart, it had been suspended for a few months. It was suspended in May 2009 right after a period of deregulation meant BMI, Virgin, Kingfisher and Jet Airways all bailed in at the same time, then realised nobody was making much money. The impetus to go back was Kingfisher going bust in the end, bmi having walked away a while back.

MAN-LAS had been a year round B744 which they tried on an A330 last winter. It seems with MAN going to be an all B744 operation, winter ops to LAS aren't profitable enough with the capacity being used on winter sun out of LGW.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: ""If there is demand, can VS not do MAN-LAS direct now that they have the A330s?"
They've always been able to do it direct, and an A330 would be no different."

Sorry, phrased that badly, meant enough demand to fill a smaller A330 if a larger B744 is deemed too big or uneconomical.


Quote: "It was suspended in May 2009 right after a period of deregulation meant BMI, Virgin, Kingfisher and Jet Airways all bailed in at the same time, then realised nobody was making much money. The impetus to go back was Kingfisher going bust in the end, bmi having walked away a while back."

Blimey, was it suspended for that long, doesn't time fly by! Think VS were code-sharing with 9W during the suspension.

LHR-BOM was BD's first longhaul ex-LHR. Can remember them coming off the route as early as 2006 having been on it since the start of deregulation in 2005 (IIRC).

IT were doing both LHR-BOM and LHR-BLR (up against BA) before they went belly-up. Now there's four carriers on the route: AI, BA, VS, 9W.

[MKY661]

It seems with MAN going to be an all B744 operation

When is this happening may I ask? :)

[rowly6339]

The problem with MAN - LAS is price, i do this trip every year and while i would like to go direct i just cant justify the price of a ticket with VS. I get 2 weeks hotel and flight with USAIR and this comes up cheaper than a return flight only with VS.

[Skipness One Echo]

When is this happening may I ask?
Summer 2014 I believe, same with the GLA operation, the remaining leisure A330s are being reconfigured to the LHR seating specs with a bigger Upper Class cabin and will be flying LGW-Carribean.

[spannersatcx]

Summer 2014 I believe, same with the GLA operation, the remaining leisure A330s are being reconfigured to the LHR seating specs with a bigger Upper Class cabin and will be flying LGW-Carribean.

Oct/Nov 2013 all 744's at MAN.

No upper class in the 2 330's that ops MAN/MCO, being reconfigured to include upper class.

[davidjohnson6]

Apart from Little Red, the long haul side of Virgin Atlantic seems to have all gone rather quiet recently - perhaps a case of head down, get on with the job and stay out of the public media glare.
Find it difficult to believe there have been no significant changes in the last 3 months.

Anyone (presumably apart from VS employees who I'm guessing have been told to keep their mouths shut) like to comment ?

[ANstar]

Presumably heads down getting the JV with Delta all up and running which I imagine is pretty time comsuming for all involved.

[Charley B]

Hope that doesn't mean the end of the VS 747 here at LGW:ugh:

[wesleyscott]

from April £25 per person per flight to choose your seat in advance of checkin opening for economy passengers...thats a huge amount

[Capetonian]

Roughly in line with what BA charge for the same 'service'.

I did a CPT return on VS last month and found it significantly better than the same trip with them a few years ago, which was awful. After last month's experience, I won't hesitate to use them for my next trip although unfortunately the CPT service is summer only.

[Skipness One Echo]

from April £25 per person per flight to choose your seat in advance of checkin opening for economy passengers...thats a huge amount
In practice, VS were notorious for reallocating chosen seats when people assumed they had them for keeps. I have been stung twice and only managed to find another half decent option when I checked in a moment after online check in opened.

[GCILover]

Does anyone know if they're likely to use the Dreamliner on the LGW-ANU next year.

[Skipness One Echo]

Does anyone know if they're likely to use the Dreamliner on the LGW-ANU next year.
The 787s are going to Heathrow to replace A340-600s so no, ANU is a B744 / A333 mix.

[GCILover]

Damn!!!

I read a statement from
Virgin saying that they would be using them out of LHR, MAN & LGW on a mix of routes including Caribbean.

It states on a booking I've got that I should be able to book my seats for next November but when I try to it says no seat plan available.

I was hoping this could be the reason

[CabinCrewe]

That is the ultimate aim as the 744s start to get phased out. The exact fleet at each site is not set in stone by any means and is subject to change, but doubt there will be significant change in the timespan you need. The A330's are very nice.

[rog747]

i seriously think that VAA really has not been reading the markets well and has been like a fish out of water for years now - who ever makes big decisions there re routes and product hmmm well! lol

the J upper class suite product whilst innovative in its time is not now that keenly liked by the business flyer and VAA could have adopted a new 'wow' product...they have been left behind now and the food is truly muck on board in J.
never see any big celebs fly on VAA any more and once there were always big names in J on the LAX or NYC etc etc...(and no they were not always upgrades)

2 x LAX flights a day and still NO clubhouse at LAX after 23 years - no wonder the celebs wont fly

all the clubhouses are great but not everyone eats in there so to cut the food to the bone and quality on board is wrong.

the W prem econ product does not offer enough value or space for the extra money (alot) charged - the seat is good but the legroom not enough.
TOP TIP increase legroom to 42-45'' and enhance meals.

the Y product - oh please...just read airline reviews - VAA Y in the 1980's was fantastic - great seat/legroom/ife/crews and a very nice meal -
TOP TIP just go back to basics - the pax will love you for it and the VAA brand loyalty will recover fast

stop start thinking on various routes - NBO for one being reconsidered...
CPT still only seasonable after all these years - a/c does ORD in UK summer -
still using clapped out worthless a340-300 weight restricted on many CPT-LHR flights

HKG and JNB could have been double daily for years now with the loads they generate and JNB should have been an A380 route by now or B747-8
LOS could be double daily, huge J loads and cargo

the ridding of a340-600 due disappointing operations, a mess of a fleet now -
too many a/c types
340 2 versions the -300 suffers weight penalty and old ife in some a/c

330 (the non J leisure versions have been re-jigged now to mainline fit -that did not last long! - gosh the expense wasted)

a330 J product received many complaints from J pax - now being enhanced

744 leisure fleet re-fitted but now they want rid huh?

744 LHR vers - mixing Y pax with J on the upper decks? big no no

78-9 on the way where is that going? now not leisure fitted

A380 deferred indef - why? when every l/haul legacy carrier is picking up more pax as they like it so much

could have Boeing been knuckled down for a great deal on 747-8 to replace the 744 fleet?

sorry for the neg's but i think the eye has been off the ball at the top for along time, way too long...

back to basics and keep it simple

[TSR2]

Are you related to Victor Meldrew by any chance ;)

[rog747]

haha no Hyacinth Bucket actually -
Elizabeth! NOT my bone china periwinkle....

- seriously it saddens me to see a previously wonderful airline making such a hash of what should be the bl****y obvious and that is why we all discuss all the rubbish on here lol

i have worked for over 30 years in this industry and cannot fathom why carriers struggle to see what makes a product good and simple - airlines can still do it -

+ yes i know EVERYTHING now is all about fuel fuel fuel costs and how to get them lower and lower - therefore the product suffers but if you stick to what you did well when you started up then that is a no-brainer.

[Skipness One Echo]

If it was a simple and obvious no brainer it would be done. Sadly it's not and it isn't. Virgin are at best pootling along at the minute I agree. The service in Economy back in those days was reflected in higher fares. VS originally existed to give customers lower fares in competition with the BAs of this world.
Today, a return ticket to GLA on BA can almost be got today for the same price as 20 years ago, go figure in inflation on that one. The service levels were stripped out and the standards lowered because people simply took a cheaper option most times.

If VS did as you suggest, they would go bust. What people "say" they'll do versus what they actually do come booking time are quantifiably seen to be at odds. You'd be looking at a large investment based on reducing your revenue as people book a cheaper deal with the competition. There is no way VS could compete to DXB for instance if they hiked prices against Emirates.

[rog747]

this issue is VS fares are not cheap - infact very often they are dearer than the likes of SQ or EK but the on-board product has been reduced to a shadow of its former self - 'back then' the fares were cheap but now its all tax and fuel and more fuel

surely you cannot tell me that with the buying power of VAA for airline catering that they cannot budget a decent meal for Y/W pax without fear of going into receivership? meals purchased by the millions cost buttons v.v other costs which VAA have consistently wasted £m's with meddling and fiddling around

The top end J product (and Prem econ) is where the bucks are but the product
has been tinkered and tattered with leaving many regular J pax kicking off and moving onto other carriers...

funny you mention DXB it is one route that VAA are rumoured possibly ditching - meddling with the domestic market did not help imho and infact MAN is stopping a rotation due lack of slots - which are loaned for that route.

[crewmeal]

Skytrax seems to echo what rog747 has been saying. However there are a few who still rate VS and what it has to offer.

Virgin Atlantic Airways Customer Reviews | SKYTRAX (http://www.airlinequality.com/Forum/vir_atl.htm)

Not having flown with them since they first started I'm not in a position to comment. But back in the early days the service was superb on the 742. My view and that of friends who fly for them is they have lost there presence in the market place and not moved on with the times. They certainly need to streamline the fleet to save future costs.

[spannersatcx]

Having flown VS PE and J in the last couple of weeks, I would have to say that the service, food, IFE etc was very good, better than I was expecting having read lots of things on the internet.

The only thing I would agree with is the UD config on the 744, whoever thought of that should be shot!

[rog747]

quote:
Having flown VS PE and J in the last couple of weeks, I would have to say that the service, food, IFE etc was very good, better than I was expecting having read lots of things on the internet.
The only thing I would agree with is the UD config on the 744, whoever thought of that should be shot!

me:
good to hear that and i note too having read latest reviews plus feedback from others both with VAA and not the opinion seems to be having a shift change for the better a wee bit...well that's good

perhaps the new Yankee at the top is staring to make a difference?
his axe has been falling all around the chaff and the wheat

[BasilBush]

I wonder whether people are fondly remembering VS through rose-tinted spectacles.

In the early years of VS I was a regular customer, always in Upper Class. Superficially the cabin service was impressive, at least when measured against the poor standard of BA at that time.

But when things went wrong, they went wrong big time. Yes, all airlines have delays, but after a while I felt that VS were tricksy and mendacious in trying to avoid rebooking pax during Irrops.

Twice on BOS-LON sectors I happily checked in only to (eventually) find out that the flights were delayed by many hours. On both occasions VS only admitted to a delay once all alternative flights on other carriers had left BOS. In both cases, neither plane had actually left LON on the inbound leg when I checked in (but in the pre-internet days you had little opportunity to check such things). And the really irritating thing was the photocopied 'original' letter from Branson expressing his concern about the delay. Of course, as VS didn't admit to any delay until other airlines' flights had left, you were left with no alternative but to sit it out and wait.

Shortly afterwards VS tried to do the same to me ex-JFK. By then I had wised up to their tricks and got them to admit the real extent of the delay. I got them to endorse my ticket over to BA and I'm afraid that was my last booking with VS.

I simply don't trust them, and the general level of the comments on Skytrax suggest I am not alone.

[CabinCrewe]

"in the early years". Things have changes significantly since then.

[BasilBush]

Yes, I'd be the first one to accept that things will have changed since then. But the scary thing about the general theme of Skytrax reviews is that the things I used to find good about VS - namely the cabin service, food, and seats - have all fallen behind competitors, at least judging by reviewers' comments. The comments by others about the need to go back to basics are well made.

Competitors have improved, and it's difficult to see any convincing reason to actively choose VS any more. It's a pity, because BA needs competition.

[Omnipresent]

A lot of Virgin's problems are of their own making.

Some are easy to point out with the benefit of hindsight (eg not seeing that the future of long-haul has two engines).

However, they have simply failed to see the way the industry is going in terms of co-operation between carriers through partnerships which even an airline as rich in capital as Emirates has recognised.

It is somewhat ironic that if Virgin had the scrutiny and financial discipline that comes as a consequence of public ownership, it might have pursued a different course.

If they hadn't fought a completely futile battle against BA and AA (driven no doubt by the personalities involved) and had instead moved to respond, they wouldn't now be launching their own TATL joint-venture some four years after AA and BA which is now reaching a state of maturity. I do also wonder about Virgin's deal making ability behind the scenes given their failure to secure deals (or extract value from them) in the past.

When you consider that BA is forecast to make a profit of about £700m this year and Virgin is forecast to make another loss the divergence in performance of the two carriers is actually quite startling.

I'm sure the performance of Virgin will improve over the next couple of years but they have wasted a lot of time over the past few years.

[SealinkBF]

Virgin coasted for years as BA fought with cabin crew and disaster after disaster. And then BA fixed it, and then some.
The BA website functionality, app services etc. is streets ahead of Virgin.
As a customer, the Virgin website moves from sleek new graphics to old fashioned version from years ago.

[Capetonian]

I am no lover of BA but have to agree that their website, although it has some annoying quirks, is substantially better than VS's. Their customer service is better too.

Although I prefer to fly VS where there is a choice between the two, I have found their website booking process very poor and their call centre 'service' even worse when I've had to call to do something not possible on the website. The staff seem to be poorly trained and disinterested.......

edit : ........... and their call centre is not one of those 'Indian' ones that people criticise, it's in South Wales. It would probably be a lot better if it were in India.

[SealinkBF]

I am a massive Virgin Atlantic fan, so my post pains me, to say the least.

[seafire6b]

Have to say that Virgin Atlantic seemed to have lost the plot some years back regarding customer service. Mrs Seafire and I used to fly VS twice a year on holidays to the USA &/or SYD, always Upper or Premium.

I too was a Virgin fan, not just the airline, but their various other products too, including Virgin Money & ISAs etc. In fact I even got myself the Virgin Atlantic 'Black' Visa credit card, and paid the subscription fee, so I could double my accruing Flying Club Miles. What a con that was - within three months of getting my card they changed it to Amex! With Visa I'd spend perhaps £900-£1200 per month (I was a smoker then!), but due to the lack of Amex retailers, I was soon forced to split all my purchases between my VS-Amex and a non-VS Visa card. Upon complaining directly to Virgin I was told, "Amex offered us a better commission rate"?! After three years my VS Flying Club Miles total was simply derisory, and I had to "buy" a huge number of points just to get a flight. I then closed the account, pronto!

Meanwhile, back on the actual Virgin Atlantic front, things were getting worse. Their website never was much cop, but once during a stay in Vermont I went online to double-check our next day's flight BOS-LHR, only to find our pre-selected seats had vanished! No joy correcting that on the VS website, so I tried phoning the USA "Helpline"(?) and after ages going around their numerous phone-menu options, a recorded voice said, "...get to the airport early...." and then HUNG UP on me! Result? Miserable centre seats for the two of us from BOS back to LHR....!

Six years ago at MAN, on our way to MCO, our Premium check-in line was stationary for 30mins, whilst the Economy line alongside was speeding through. Upon querying this with a duty VS Pax Rep walking past, she said, "..some staff passengers have a check-in problem..."! Staff??! Ye Gods!

Amongst other things, to quote from my "final" letter of complaint to Virgin Atlantic, "...I wouldn't offer your so-called breakfast to a child, let alone to an adult paying for a Premium service..." . Sorry SRB, but considering VS is a long-haul airline, why should I tolerate your uncomfortable seating and inedible food? The reviews would appear to support me on this. Alas, adieu to Virgin Atlantic.

Try comparing the VS Premium Economy against BA's WTP product. For me, it's no contest and I've chosen NOT to fly VS for the past six years, and have happily found BA much more than adequate. You never know, we might even start looking at BA for flights within Europe too, instead of easyJet!

I realize this has been a bit of a rant, and it gives me little pleasure that what I'd once looked upon as a great home-based "2nd force" innovative airline, would now surprise me if still in business in a few years.

[cym]

Virgin Atlantic in my opinion has always been hype over substance

If you want quality BA beats them hands down as they do all US carriers on the north atlantic

[Epsomdog]

10-15 years ago VS were the leading UK brand in the industry. So they puffed out their chest and started telling the world.
Trouble is, they still think that is the case! Well, news for you! BA and the likes have moved on.

It's time for VS to up their game!

[rog747]

yes exactly what my opinion posted earlier...

do VAA management not fly on other legacy carriers to see how its done?

[BasilBush]

I think the last 20 years has passed them by, judging by the fact that their publicity is still focussed on female cabin crew dressed as stripograms (I'm being polite). Half their potential market is female, for heaven's sake, and harking back to the sexist 80s is hardly what you'd expect in the 21st century.

[rog747]

yes a 60 year old Branson in a pilots outfit picking up some blonde bimbette over his shoulder and plonking her on a wing or in an engine intake for a photo shoot is very wearing...lol

[SWBKCB]

I think the last 20 years has passed them by, judging by the fact that their publicity is still focussed on female cabin crew dressed as stripograms (I'm being polite). Half their potential market is female, for heaven's sake, and harking back to the sexist 80s is hardly what you'd expect in the 21st century.

Nothing like setting a good example!

Is this his tackiest PR stunt yet? Richard Branson lifts his kilt to promote Virgin¿s expansion into Scotland | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305921/Is-tackiest-PR-stunt-Richard-Branson-lifts-kilt-promote-Virgin-s-expansion-Scotland.html)

Yes, the Daily Mail thought it was tacky.... :eek:

[TOM100]

Type in You Tube "Pam Ann Vigin Atlantic" and watch the VAA parodies naughty but very funny and illustrate Basil Bush's point.

I wont post them here as I'll probably get banned - lol !

[SealinkBF]

Premium Economy on VS imho is streets ahead of WTP.

[CabinCrewe]

Think id be hard pushed to say "streets ahead" to be honest, but again just IMO.

[Omnipresent]

15 years ago Virgin Atlantic ran a billboard advertising campaign to market that the fact it offered seat-back TV entertainment in economy. It was relevant then because, as the ads stated, other airlines offered "Sweet BA".


15 years on, Virgin has just run a billboard advertising campaign to market the fact it offers seat-back TV entertainment. They haven't moved on.

[PAXboy]

OmnipresentThey haven't moved on.
Well .. I'd guess since everyone now offers seat back TV, they are just making sure that potential new customers know that.

Since the specifics of the entertainment systems are difficult to get across and any 'prime' carrier offers the same type of 'start when you want' film and TV progs, there is little to separate them. Old lags that remember the introduction of the Super 8 film on cartridge at the front of the 747-100 cabin and the earphones that were plastic tubes connected to mini speakers in the arm rest ... :8

No, I don't work for them and never have.

(signed) an Old Lag

[crewmeal]

Perhaps SRB and his team should have spent more time focusing on their own product instead of spending millions BA bashing over the years. You only have to read the rivalry section of Wikipedia to find out what went on.

[Epsomdog]

1. VS has lost market position.
2. VS is loosing money.
3. Perception within the industry is, it's lost its way!
4. Current marketing is based on outdated principles.

I'm sure a lot more can be added to this list. Question is how do they go about turning around, what was once an excellent airline? Can that be done with the current management?

[rog747]

quote:
I'm sure a lot more can be added to this list. Question is how do they go about turning around, what was once an excellent airline? Can that be done with the current management?

me:
well as i said the new Yank at the Top seems to be welding his way through departments and although not as much of a hacket job as yet on the chaff as Willie Walsh did on his arrival at BA things have started to be 'noticed' and we will have to wait and see if his progress reaps rewards.

the full Delta tie-up starts up right now and imho i think Delta may take over more eventually and the longevity of the Virgin brand? who knows?
.
as for SRB seems he prefers to run around in his pants now on Necker dealing with his other interests and spaceships.

None of the Branson siblings seem to want to get hands on with the airline which was always SRB's main baby.

Loyal pax are unhappy about the J and the Y seats, the poor grub on board, a lot of sadly negative comments about the cabin and ground staff - that comes from the Top and staff moral can be fixed quickly even in hard times with the right motivation.

the little red venture - 'one year on' figures will be interesting

Pax love the Clubhouses & limo (limo - Full J fares) exclusive kerb check-in and VS own fast-track security at LHR - all innovations VS have done well with over the years.

the W product should be better with legroom much more than 38'' - the seat is OK though just not enough space when fully reclined in front of you - a recent enhanced meal still could be better - the W fares are often not cheap nor good value for this premium Y long haul product.

the Y product - its not enough to say you have fabulous Panasonic IFE
(only available on less than half the current fleet) when you snap at them and starve them over 12 hours and make them sit on seats where the comfort factor makes a park bench look attractive.
for the first time pax are comparing VAA (a 4 star airline) with Ryanair - if i was at the Top i would be mortified if i heard and read this...

as i said above do VS managers actually fly on anyone else to have a look see? Whatever VS do next will cost money but they may be well spent if they start getting it right again and get out in front once more.

it would be sad to see VS go the same way as the wonderful Wardair, Laker,
Lauda Air and a few more inventive carriers who had similar brand loyalty.

[Epsomdog]

.......and staff moral can be fixed quickly even in hard times with the right motivation.

the little red venture - 'one year on' figures will be interesting

Staff moral is not as easy as you suggest. Giving them a big pay rise and telling them to go away and "be happy", isn't the answer. The staff have to be inspired and believe in their product!

"The little red venture".
From what I've seen the loads have been mixed. Last week a LHR / EDI early flight had 3 pax on board. A more proactive yield management strategy might be the answer, VS still don't have a short haul mindset.

[rog747]

re staff moral i never mentioned any big pay rise as a 'fix'
- you can ''team'' everyone up even without a pay rise if you do it well...
as you state yourself =
- staff have to be inspired and believe in their product!
(thus not sure where you got 'giving a big pay rise' from my dialogue)

re little red-
VS have dibbled and dabbled over the last 15+ years with Virgin Sun, Virgin Express and now Red ...

VS still do not have any tie up with their very own Oz counterparts Virgin Australia (nee Virgin Blue, Virgin Pacific, V Australia, Virgin Polynesia et al):ugh:

Virgin Oz has preferred a tie up with Ethiad through Abu Dhabi rather than DXB or HKG or LAX/SFO with VS flights. how odd...
The VAA Flying Club agreement with the VS Oz airline is pretty pathetic too.

(and Qantas dumps BA through BKK/SIN and joins EK through Dubai)

from the loads Virgin's JNB, Lagos and HKG could easily be double daily year round out of LHR and they still dither about on routes.
dithered with A380 - launch customer - lost opportunity

[Heathrow Harry]

Virgin have always been a toy for SRB - now he's getting on the day to day interest isn't there and they are turning into any other small airline

I'm amazed they still run those ads based on their "attractive" cabin staff - they were a bit old fashioned 20 years ago but now..... they are starting to look really out of touch and even a bit pervy

[seafire6b]

Further to my previous posting, Mrs Seafire and I flew home MIA/LHR/GLA with BA last month and were happily surprised that even our WTP tickets allowed use of the BA lounges, at GLA outward and at LHR during our return. That was a "first", and I'm still fathoming how we qualified for the lounges. It was most welcome however, particularly at the T5 zoo (3.5hr transit) coming home; lounge access has never happened on our previous WTP trips.

The onboard service on all the BA flights was excellent. Just a small point, but - at the pre-dinner service out of MIA, the CC discreetly first checked his list and then said, "would you care for a drink Mrs (then Mr) Seafire?", addressing each of us by name, which then continued through the flight. That standard of service took me back a couple of decades!

Somehow I cannot see VS ever matching BA onboard standards - I think one factor may be the "maturity" of BA cabin crew, possibly stemming from perhaps differing salary structures of the two airlines. I'd also think that a much smaller proportion of VS cabin crew look upon their jobs as a long-term career - just a thought, no evidence!

Incidentally, last night, pre-planning for a trip this year, I compared BA WTP prices against VS Premium Y, and BA are also clear winners on that too.

Sorry Virgin, but you had all your chances when I was a then-loyal customer six years ago, but time after time you just blew it! Lose a customer once and they're gone forever.

I would add that I've no connection with BA nor VS, and voice my opinion purely as a customer.

[Capetonian]

It's easy to get loads. The challenge is to get good yields. Until they improve their image, they won't get good enough loads at the yields they need to offer more capacity and make money. There is, for example, potential for them to operate CPT year round instead of (ZA) summer only, specially now that that there is no more SAA on the route. BA make a profit on year round daily, often double daily and they have the same constraints on the route as VS, the only advantage they have is greater connectivity at LHR.

[CabinCrewe]

WTP on BA connections are into the only other fare bucket group available for UK domestic which is the equivalent of Business UK or J class, hence access to lounge. As you'll know, it doesn't permit lounge access prior to boarding the WTP flight at either LHR or MIA for return. The overall numbers for BA are low in this group so not a big commitment for them and as you say, often a nice surprise for passengers.

[rog747]

the J and W loads on HKG LOS and JNB are superb usually full and double daily really is surprisingly missing if you have that amount of take-up. again missed opportunity not having the A380
cargo also is high yield

CPT has always been a misnomer - again fiddled with year in year out - do they even go up to Easter holidays this year? i do not think so - i maybe wrong but i think it finishes end of March - you are missing the peak holiday season...
CPT flights often using the old clapped out (often weight restricted N/B) A340-300 with old IFE on some a/c.

another missed opportunity was not going back to Canada quick enough nor often enough - YVR is so popular but VS do summer only - YYZ try getting a J seat on AC? - full full full
Calgary is crying out for a competitor - a great route which BA gave up years ago.

Muted that South America was on the cards - what happened to that?
Athens - why did they dump that -every Athens flight these days is busy busy busy on BA or Aegean year round.

[seafire6b]

CabinCrewe

Now slightly off-thread:
Ahaa, "alles klar" now, thanks for that. Yes indeed, was much appreciated, but even when we "tried it on" to get into the lounge at MIA, the nice (not sarcasm) BA check-in guy at MIA regretted that we didn't qualify for the lounge at T5 either!

Although before departing GLA we'd seen on the BA website we would be "lounged", nothing on our printed ticket paperwork confirmed it. Although we'd used the lounge at GLA outbound, we were then fearful of a bit of a "stooshe" (Scottish word, try google!), during our return through T5, but it must've been coded onto our boarding passes - so no problem, phew!

[Capetonian]

JNB and LOS are primarily business routes whereas CPT is primarily leisure/VFR so the revenue management models are different. The highest revenue is attracted on traffic originating outside Southern Africa, due to the lower value of the ZAR fares, particularly when onward connections are taken into consideraton and prorates have to be applied. The peak traffic season for southbound leisure traffic into IATA subzone 232 (Mozambique, Namibia, South Africa, Zambia, Zimbabwe) is the northern hemisphere winter, hence the traditional VS ops into CPT OCT-MAR (I'm not sure when it ends this year but probably 27 MAR).

There is still potential for VS to operate into CPT year round. The classic mistake though would be to do so on a frequency of 3 a week, which does not give the flexibility that the higher yield passengers require of a daily rotation, so it's a bit of a Catch 22.

Edit : Corrected error.
Edit :
Just checked, and somewhat ironically I see that they are operating daily until late March and then three rotations a week until late April with the 340-300. It suits me .... but whether they will make money is another story. Hopefully they have made the right decisions.

[Skipness One Echo]

Calgary is crying out for a competitor - a great route which BA gave up years ago.
BA have been back on LHR-YYC for a few years, it's going B787 soon I believe.
YVR is so popular but VS do summer only - YYZ try getting a J seat on AC? - full full full
Again, Vancouver is proving to be a difficult nut to crack, it was not certain to return after a difficult first year. Chicago still remains summer only.

Let's put it another way. Virgin initially piled into New York, Boston, Miami, San Francisco and Los Angeles where they stole a fair amount of point to point traffic from BA. BA then raised their game and later forays into Toronto, Chicago and Vancouver have not seen the same success. Virgin's customer's are loyal to a fault however they have failed to add to that core loyalty in the new markets they have entered I think.

[CKT789]

Is there an extra A320 (EI-DEJ) operating for Little Red? If so, anyone know why this is? The existing fleet has barely been with Little Red for 12 months.

[Una Due Tfc]

Maybe EI subbed in DEJ for another one of their 320s operating for Little Red due the original needing maintenance, or maybe the lease was up on one of them.

[Jack1985]

Maybe EI subbed in DEJ for another one of their 320s operating for Little Red due the original needing maintenance, or maybe the lease was up on one of them.

Yes, subbing for EI-DEI which is under-going maintenance in Dublin.

[Epsomdog]

DEI is on a C check in Dublin, due back on line around the 18th.

[Hangar6]

The Lingus Source | (http://Www.thelingussource.com)

Tracks subs, charters etc

[JackRalston]

The aircraft involved in the incident at UVF last month is now on it's way back to LHR as VIR816P :ok:

[22/04]

I'm sure those downtown guys will transform her one again into an Uptown Girl!!

Only a joke- no dis respect to VS/LH engineers

[AdamFrisch]

I've flown LAX-LHR for almost 10 years now - multiple times a year. And back when I started doing that, Virgin just crushed everyone else. Nobody came close in economy. This was when the A340-600 was new and the cabins were new and everything was great. But the last few years they've become way too "Essex" - from the sugary food, to the staff, to everything. It feels like a Thomas Cook charter back there now. Upper Class is still good, but I've only done it a few times when someone else paid.

These days I fly Air New Zealand on that route. They're just a marvel of minimalism, reminding me of the heydays of SAS. Food is clean and uncluttered, not too sugary, even the tray is pressed wood and looks really cool, like a designer piece. The 777's on that route all feel new and and every seat has power outlets in economy. And the cost is the same. Hard to beat.

BA I've had very bad experiences with on this route. Why they seem to run the most ragged and old 747's on this route to the entertainment capital of the world I don't know. I hope they've improved since last time which was a disaster:

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/481520-bas-fleet-becoming-disgrace-any-wonder-people-abandon-old-carriers.html

[PAXboy]

A guess: If a company is sure of a particular segment of it's market (an airline route or a particular tine of mixed biscuits) it will place development effort and money elsewhere.

That is what provides others with their 'leg up' just as it did for VS when BA had a tired product to NYC, back in the day. What goes around ...

[egnxema]

Adam - 100% agree!!

Flew LGW-BGI on 16JAN. Experience in Y was mediocre at best. Cabin interior on the 747 was fine. But 2 things stood out as poor:

Cabin Crew attitude. Just rubbish. I found the smiles, friendliness, countenance, welcome on board my last Thomson flight to be far superior to Virgin. This crew really just could not be bothered.

Having worked for a long haul carrier for a number of years I know that what truly separates airlines is their people. Currently, Virgin Atlantic crew seem to have not only lost their MoJo but they give the impression they can't even be bothered to go look for it.

VERA - the seat back touchscreen system. Fine except for the pax behind me needed to press the screen so firmly to control it I was rhythmically tapped in the back for hours. Annoying.

My next Caribbean trip will be booked on BA.

[Charley B]

Think you will find VIR 816P went into LGW early this morning(not LHR!)...arrived at 04.45

[vctenderness]

BA I've had very bad experiences with on this route. Why they seem to run the most ragged and old 747's on this route to the entertainment capital of the world I don't know. I hope they've improved since last time which was a disaster:

Yes they have they now have A380's on this route so maybe you should give them another chance.

[Skipness One Echo]

To infinity... and beyond: Richard Branson on why Virgin Atlantic is on the up - ES Magazine - Life & Style - London Evening Standard (http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/to-infinity-and-beyond-richard-branson-on-why-virgin-atlantic-is-on-the-up-9080294.html)

Branson decides to be the best airline in the world again, ahead of everyone.
I think he's part of the problem rather than the solution, A346s and A380s instead of A330s (since bought). A complete inability to sort it out with BMI?
A semi detached billionaire living on a Caribbean island can't be easy to say no to, especially when he's not involved day to day. His mind's on space ships nowadays.

Good airline, needing some TLC, rather than pretending their the best in the world, when they're not even close.

[crewmeal]

Quoting from the article:

Virgin will finally get its hands on its first new two-engine Boeing 787 Dreamliner later this year. Up to 20 more will follow, enabling Branson to replace almost all Virgin’s ageing four-engine Boeing 747s and Airbus A340s.

What do VS intend to use on the HKG - SYD route?

[Blighty Pilot]

Initial 787 routes haven't been divulged just yet but as the 787 arrives the 340 will disappear.

[LadyL2013]

I will be sad to see the 744's go. I get why, but I still find them majestic and full of character. It's the aircraft every one can name.

About the names. I get that some of them are name by their reg e.g G-VFIZ (Bubbles), G-VFAB (Lady Penelope), but what is the pattern for naming the others that aren't named after people?

[Tom Sawyer]

I would think the A346 will remain on the HKG / SYD route for a while yet. Most of them are still on leases with a number of years to run, and as the lease companies do not want them back the early return charges would be high. The B787's are to replace the A343's and B747's along with any possible expansion initially. Whatever is ordered next (A350, more B789 or B77X) will be the main A346 replacement.

The article says SRB "trousered" the Delta cash.....wouldn't that have gone to SQ to buy out their 49%?

[rutankrd]

I would think the A346 will remain on the HKG / SYD route for a while yet. Most of them are still on leases with a number of years to run, and as the lease companies do not want them back the early return charges would be high. The B787's are to replace the A343's and B747's

So wrong !

Rookie mistake the deliveries are phased over several years post 2015.

The Dreamliners ARE to replace all A340s.

Virgin current plans have a number of 744s in service through the rest of the decade.

The Hong Kong -Sydney extension isn't very profitable and could easily go away

The future for VS under DL tutelage is on the North Atlantic.

[116d]

Indeed, the 789 is a bit small to replace all the 744s when there are options in the form of A351s, 777-9X or the A380s VS keep postponing that are more suitable 744 replacements.

I believe the 744 will still be flying in VS colours until the end of the decade at least, especially considering that VS refitted the LGW/MAN/GLA 744s with all-new interiors and IFE a year or two ago.

[CabinCrewe]

anyone have any updates on how Little Red doing on the domestic routes ...heard that they were, on average, still pretty dire

[ChalfontFlyer]

Used Little Red to EDI on Monday afternoon, although I didn't do an exact headcount it looked to be much less than a third full & returned on the last flight yesterday evening which was about a third full.

Appreciate that this is just 2 flights in January with mostly business customers, it seemed to me that more passengers were waiting to board the BACF LCY flight last night.

Are there just too many seats chasing too few passengers on the Domestic services in & out of London at this time of the year?

[Jet Set Willie]

Indeed. Been on BACF and all flights are doing very well to LCY. Looked a very quick boarding process for the Virgin flight with not many to get on at all.

A point of interest there is that you say its mostly business passengers travelling on little red. Thought their plan was to go for feeder traffic for the longer routes to NYC and LA etc?!!

[LadyL2013]

Not surprised really. LCY puts most business people almost smack bang in thr financial/business district with quicker transit through the airport. LHR involves a longish tube ride into the city and a sometimes lengthy transit through the airport.

Having said that I know someone who flies Little Red regularly and says it's much busier in March (close of finacial year), early summer and beginning of Autumn. Apparently those are very busy times for business.

[T250]

Well how would it be busy in March as the service launched only on 31st March last year!!! :ugh::ugh::ugh:

[LadyL2013]

Sorry, I worded it badly. The domestic routes between LHR are busier at those times in general. Not just on Little Red. Thus I eould expect the load to be bigger then.

No need to bang your head against a wall.

[Skipness One Echo]

Seems Virgin Atlantic are dropping the Hong Kong-Sydney extension for a new focus on the North Atlantic with Delta. Effective from May, and means Hong Kong base will close. Rather ruthless on the timing or perhaps a much needed focus shift that was years overdue.
Important information about our Hong Kong - Sydney service | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/travel-information/customer-service/latest-news/sydney-service.html?cm_mmc=UK%20Social%20_Media-_-GB%20Social%20Media-_-HKGSYD-_-Social)

Is Hong Kong really a good market for them going forward? They're now dwarfed by five a day Cathay and BA using new A380s and B77Ws. Perhaps a US city might be a better more JV friendly focus?

[davidjohnson6]

Why is this ruthless on timing ? VS are giving 3 months notice and offering rebooking to those affected after flights end in addition to the required refund option.
Yes, VS could give 12 months notice, but they also need to be commercial about their operations as well.

[Cyber Bob]

The HKG base isn't closing - looks like SYD base is though

[Level bust]

BA on twice daily A380s

The 2 BA flights to Hong Kong are operated by an A380 and a B777.

[rog747]

no surprise there then but what i do not know is the reasons as to why no agreements to code-share VS with Virgin Australia (Voz) were ever implemented...
you have two airlines set up by the same guy and he does not want them to mix and match? then after fighting for years for the right to fly LON-SYD he walks away...

its boggling that VS DAILY flies to DXB, HKG, LAX, SFO and JNB but Voz has not made any attempts seemingly to want fly the London pax onto Australia

Voz could have op'd these routes to meet the VS a/c coming in/out from LHR
DXB-PER SYD MEL
JNB-PER
HGK-SYD MEL BNE
LAX/SFO-MEL SYD BNE
they could have marketed a round the world service as well

instead Virgin Oz flies standalone alone from LAX and SFO to Oz
THEN teams up with Etihad via AUH as has Qantas teams up with Emirates via DXB

bizarre!

[Skipness One Echo]

The bearded billionaire's "empire" has always been smoke and mirrors. He has a bare majority in VS but that doesn't mean he runs the show. Virgin America is an American firm which uses Virgin branding and in which the Virgin Group has a holding, not full control. It's the same with Virgin Blue, control was never Branson's and it's much less so nowadays after a boardroom battle. Both companies do pretty much their own thing, the relationship is distant as they're independent firms in different markets linked only by a name and some presence of the Virgin Group on the board. SRB is merely wheeled out for the odd photocall, which as he get's older, gets creepier. Remember him in his pants on the apron at EDI launching Virgin Little Red?
Richard Branson?s cheeky lift-off | The Sun |Feeds|Smartphone|Scotland (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/scottishnews/4879357/Richard-Bransons-cheeky-lift-off.html)

Sadly SRB still sees little Virgin standing up against an anti-competitve BA whereas the world moved on with a refreshed BA battling a strong Lufthansa / STAR branding and an enhanced KLM / Air France group, not to mention the Delta / AF / KL on the North Atlantic and the similar combined Continental/ United / Lufthansa tie up. That's before you get to looking East at Cathay, Singapore, Emirates, Etihad and Qatar, Virgin ceased to be a major issue for BA long ago and under SRB, Virgin never moved on from that. "Four engines for long haul"? Perhaps today is Day One of a more sensible and commercially focused approach? Hope so.

[rog747]

oh lord that pants pic is very upsetting

[Omnipresent]

I'm only surprised it has taken them so long to withdraw from the route. It must have been a bloodbath using an A340.

[Logohu]

I'm surprised the Virgin Sydney flight lasted as long as it did. The Europe - Australia route has long been a bloodbath for the European based airlines and Qantas. For years the Asian carriers and more lately the Middle East carriers have been progressively taking over that market with their lower costs, more attractive schedules and better service. Airlines like KLM, Lufthansa, Air France / UTA, Austrian / Lauda, Alitalia, Olympic, JAT and others have already stopped operating the Australian routes in their own right. Some have disappeared altogether whilst others now codeshare on the very airlines that replaced them.
The way Qantas are going it won't be long before their last two Europe flights into LHR are replaced with Emirates tails, whilst BA are now down to a single token daily 777 to Sydney.
All part of the trend towards globalization and alliances, which Virgin appear to have finally caught onto with their tie up with Delta.

[AdamFrisch]

Seems Virgin Atlantic are dropping the Hong Kong-Sydney extension for a new focus on the North Atlantic with Delta. Effective from May, and means Hong Kong base will close. Rather ruthless on the timing or perhaps a much needed focus shift that was years overdue.

Even more reasons to start thinking about an ULR direct route Heathrow-Sydney. I bet most of the costs involved here is by having to keep a hub, personnel, aircraft, service going for that last leg.

Heard the new 777-8X will be able to do it and carry a payload. Maybe the A350 might be able to as well.

[Cyrano]

Even more reasons to start thinking about an ULR direct route Heathrow-Sydney.
I don't think it's "even more reasons" at all. VS was an irrelevance in the UK-Australia market faced with the competition, especially the Gulf competition. How many successful ultra-long-range routes can you point to around the world? Is there really a demand to be squeezed into an economy seat for 20+ hours rather than stopping and stretching your legs in the middle? Plus the advantage of a hub midway is that the hub airline can use larger aircraft with lower seat costs, so can price more aggressively.

I bet most of the costs involved here is by having to keep a hub, personnel, aircraft, service going for that last leg.
I'd suggest a big chunk of the costs of a ULR service would be fuel (especially the fuel burnt in order to carry fuel) and the costs of keeping a small special-purpose ULR fleet.

Heard the new 777-8X will be able to do it and carry a payload.
Oh, well, if it can carry a payload... :cool:

[Curious Pax]

Singapore's ULR ops direct to the USA are probably instructive on how desirable pax find that type of service. Now canned, I get the impression it never really took off as they would have liked (pardon the pun!).

[rog747]

re ULR it is just possible that LON-PER non-stop might be the most desirable route for someone
QF mooted a few years ago they were interested (before the Arab tie-up) but at the time the a/c around still had a westbound penalty

all seems to have gone quiet on that front.

as i said in my post above the boardroom battles that have been mentioned here inflicted on VS and Voz have done them no favours when an obvious tie up with hubs at DXB JNB and LAX could have fed pax onto Voz...even a BOM hub was an option to open up India through to oz.
very strange indeed and beggars belief not to use your brand...

[fa2fi]

How's things with Little Red? I heard there's 9 on a EDI departure today. I know it's hardly a peak day, but come on. That's pathetic.

[Fairdealfrank]

I don't think it's "even more reasons" at all. VS was an irrelevance in the UK-Australia market faced with the competition, especially the Gulf competition. How many successful ultra-long-range routes can you point to around the world? Is there really a demand to be squeezed into an economy seat for 20+ hours rather than stopping and stretching your legs in the middle? Plus the advantage of a hub midway is that the hub airline can use larger aircraft with lower seat costs, so can price more aggressively.





Singapore's ULR ops direct to the USA are probably instructive on how desirable pax find that type of service. Now canned, I get the impression it never really took off as they would have liked (pardon the pun!).


Not just stopping and stretching legs, the option of a stopover also exists, thus breaking up a very long journey. Many travellers on Europe-Australasia take advantage of these.

ULH may have attractions for F or J pax, or those in a desperate hurry, but hell for those in Y. Not surprised that SQ's got canned!

[PAXboy]

1) Sorry the VS extended leg to SYD has gone, I was reckoning to use that in November!

2) ULH to PER: being able to do it technically and being able to do it at a price that folks will pay? But I agree, the cost of making it happen will probably be out gunned by the financial benefits of a making it two sectors, as detailed above by others.

3) For VS: They started as an independent at the right time but world events over took them. The consolidation into the alliances and the emergence of the mid-east carriers? Not much could have stood against that. If they had thrown in their lot with one of the big groups earlier? It might have worked, now it's a bit late. They will probably remain their current size.

4) The failure of Virgin group to link:


V Atlantic
V Austalia
V America
V Balloon trips
V Holiday company
V Cruise company

into a mini global group is astounding. :eek:

Having got three independent carriers with distinctive styles to NOT make a high level link up so that they could share pax and RTWs??? How did they miss that? They didn't have to merge, they could be their very own alliance with a small global co-ordinating centre. Heck, they even own a telecomms company to facilitiate the links with expertise and buying power! The others must be so relieved (and amused) that they failed.

I dare say that someone thought of it - but it is exactly the kind of brave step that the Virgin Group used to do. Take an established market and shake it up. The alliances have to shoe horn themselves under one brand - having first invented the 'OneWorld' etc. When Virgin already HAD a brand that was known around the world. Sheesh! :rolleyes:

[Una Due Tfc]

That SIA direct flight to JFK was on an A345 that was all business/first. Only 90 seats on board IIRC. If that didn't work between two of the wealthiest and most financially important cities in the world.......

[Fairdealfrank]

That SIA direct flight to JFK was on an A345 that was all business/first. Only 90 seats on board IIRC. If that didn't work between two of the wealthiest and most financially important cities in the world.......


Indeed, and any LHR-SYD would also have to be F and J only, but there clearly isn't the appetite for this. How much time would it actually save over a one-stop, 2-3 hours?

[All names taken]

Doesn't work as it's most people's idea of hell even in First or Business.
I do a lot of long haul in business and anything over 10 hrs - I've lost the will to live. Needs a break / stop over. That's why the sand carriers do so well.

Ultra long haul will never work until hypersonic propulsion becomes normal and affordable.

[crewmeal]

The failure of Virgin group to link:

V Atlantic
V Austalia
V America
V Balloon trips
V Holiday company
V Cruise company


Are they still doing well? I keep getting Groupon emails advertising half price flights. Mind you the UK weather might have something to do with that.

[european130]

I booked a flight in Feb last year from Orlando via LAX to Sydney, which l booked on the V Australia website. The strange thing is that the MCO/LAX connection l thought would show Virgin America so it was seamless within the group. No it was with Delta, which was well before the tie-up between DL and VS, and there was a Virgin America flight that made a perfect connection - time wise

[LadyL2013]

Why are there 2 Ladybirds?

G-VAST and G-VBUG. OK, one is Lady Bird and one is Ladybird, but still.

[Skipness One Echo]

l thought would show Virgin America so it was seamless within the group.
They're not actually in the same group, that's the main issue. The shared branding is a little misleading, they have a common minority shareholder.

[crewmeal]

Branson is on his high horse again blaming competition for coming off the SYD-HKG route. Instead of moaning he should be up there doing something about it.

Richard Branson: why I shut down Virgin Atlantic in Australia - Flights | hotels | frequent flyer | business class - Australian Business Traveller (http://www.ausbt.com.au/richard-branson-on-virgin-atlantic-s-australian-shutdown)

He hope to be back one day! Pathetic!

[rog747]

exactly crewmeal

SRB had every chance to forge links with Virgin Oz to tie up at LAX -
Voz have a great service to SYD, MEL, BNE

if Virgin Oz had chosen to serve DXB iso AUH then both them and VS would have competed with EK/QF head on - but hey that's what VS said they were always good at - meeting the competitor head on.

same with VS via JNB - head on with SAA to Perth but its a busy route and also one of the quickest to Oz with a good connection at JNB or possibly Voz could have offered MEL or even SYD

going via HKG was always seen as a bit of the long way round imho -

as another poster mentioned here boardroom battles between VS and Voz sealed the fate of non-alliances

[BasilBush]

The most revealing thing about Branson's comments is that "I love going to Australia and the idea of having to go on Qantas or British Airways is going to be very, very painful".

It just shows how out of touch he has been with the hubbing strategy and the development of alliances, and this failure to recognise market trends has cost VS dear. If he wants to avoid BA or QF he could choose from Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Cathay, Singapore, Malaysian, Air China, Asiana, Thai, Korean, JAL etc.

And some of these airlines even share VS's dated attitudes to half of the human race ("Singapore Girls" is so last century), so he should feel right at home.

[rog747]

basil

SRB can alleviate his 'pain' by going on his own airline to LAX then jumping on virgin Oz - unless that is a pain too for him poor dear

[BasilBush]

Yes indeed rog747. My heart bleeds for the poor love. But if he's as rich as he claims to be, why does he need to fly commercial anyway? Or maybe that's all an illusion as well (cf Tom Bower).

[rog747]

i wonder if cash rich SRB would like to top up the enormous hole in the VAA staff pension scheme as it was put in hugely risky investments and now the pot is near empty - would be nice gesture of him

[Omnipresent]

What a hardship it would be to take a a Qantas A380 or brand new BA 777-300!!

Personally, I would love to be a fly on the wall in the board meetings with the new DL directors on the VS board.

[BasilBush]

I wasn't aware of the pension issue Rog. I'm sorry for all those affected. But if the funds were indeed invested in inappropriate assets then surely the pensioners (and deferred pensioners) should be pursuing the Trustees for mismanagement. The resulting embarrassment for SRB et al might conceivably result in something.

[Fairdealfrank]

going via HKG was always seen as a bit of the long way round imho -


Check LHR-SYD on great circle mapper, it's actually the shortest route, just 2 mi. longer than the great circle route (ditto LHR-CAN-SYD).



Great Circle Mapper (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=lhr-syd%2C+lhr-hkg-syd%2C+lhr-can-syd%0D%0A&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE)=


the reason LHR-SYD flights went through SIN or BKK rather than HKG is historical: during the cold war overflying China PR and the Soviet Union was prohibited, so the great circle could not be used.

BTW, via DXB is much longer.

Great Circle Mapper (http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=lhr-syd%2C+lhr-dxb-syd&RANGE=&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&PATH-MINIMUM=&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE)=

[Cyber Bob]

Jeez Rog747 - scary stuff. Can you post where you got your info from. Was it from someone in the Company or from someone from the pension provider who manages the provision.

Any info would be great

CB

[rog747]

fairdealfrank many thanks for reminding me i should have been better at geography lol sorry my fault

basil
yes the pensions issue has been bitter and i for one have been urging friends
affected to seek if the trustees have mismanaged and get SRB in the frame

cyberbob
re pensions i have VS friends current and retired both crew and g/s
the mood is bitter - the pension fund was moved recently for obvious reasons

like wise similar at BMI
LH topped up the pot by £74m (they were not obliged to do so as IAG were in the frame by then after the sell off and Bish was also asked to match LH - after all he sold off BMI and got very personally rich - but he refused to top up the pot) £74m to Bish would not make him flinch that much but all his loyal employees many of whom stayed with BMA and beyond for most of their careers that made him wealthy still flinch at the piss pot pension some now are still fighting for.

[Cyber Bob]

Rog 747 - widely known that the general mood is far from hunky dory but changing pension provider doesn't necessarily suggest a smash and grab raid nor a black hole.

Let it be known that CB's other half is correct, CB is thick :ugh:. CB can't see the obvious link, can anyone enlighten me

TVM
CB

[crewrest]

Er, I'm partially in the Fidelity pension and it's running fine thanks, what a load of cobblers...

[rog747]

crewrest i will pass your BS comment that on to the staff i know am sure they will appreciate that -

however
the latest pension forecast he just received HAS shown an encouraging move up in the fund by a fair percentage so maybe recovery is looking better

[LadyL2013]

How big is the gap between the window and the A and K seats on rows 61 - 64? We want 2 seats together but don't want to have to lean right over to see out the window.

[NWSRG]

From memory, 61 has enough of a gap to set a carry on bag down into...as you move towards 64, the gap obviously reduces. They're all good seats, and from 61, you can still see out just fine!
The door / toilets behind 64 will make them a bit less private / relaxed...people will tend to hang around that space. 61 or 62 would be my preferred rows.

[LadyL2013]

That's good to know. Gone for 62 as I figured gap will be smaller and can stick legs into gap in 61 possibly. The upper deck economy have been held back so I'll check back to see if these get opened up too as that would be my first choice.

[LadyL2013]

I see VS3 G-VFIT declared Pan Pan Pan into JFK tonight with an engine failure.

[cheesebag]

Bit of advice from people in the know if you don't mind!

flying Premium to JFK in may and the seat map will be released soon.

What are the best premium seats, Outbound we are on an A346, return a 744?

Thanks!

[SWBKCB]

Today's Times is reporting that the European Commission have asked the CAA to investigate whether Delta have undue control over the operation of the airline.

Czech Airlines, Air Berlin and Cargolux also mentioned as causing concerns over non-EU ownership.

[All names taken]

I wonder if someone who works for Virgin Atlantic can help me.

On one of my return long hauls coming up, Delta are suggesting a re-route thru Orlando to MAN on a Virgin operated service which they say is operated by a B744.

I know there are differences between the Main (LHR based) and Leisure (LGW and MAN based)

Now what I don't want after a long and tiring week away is to do the long haul part of the trip in a cabin full of screaming brats wearing mickey mouse ears.

So the question is: Will this flight be operated with a proper Upper Class service with basically a Business Class product?

Thanks in advance

[blackbeard1]

I have only flown VA UC on the MAN/MCO route twice and each time if was the full service. The UC part of the aircraft is small and the service very personal and good. Recomend you take a look at the VA Forum and ask there V-Flyer Forums ? View forum - The Departure Lounge (http://v-flyer.com/forum/index.php?f=4&sid=047954a2e7e2d73f3565a7c32a307b68&rb_v=viewforum)

[rutankrd]

So the question is: Will this flight be operated with a proper Upper Class service with basically a Business Class product?


Leisure fleet are shared between Manchester and Gatwick.

They have just 14 Upper Class seats in very front of main deck exactly the same arrangement as the LHR ones (Their additional Upper Class product is up stairs) all single lie flat and a bar pretty comfy really.

I think the entertainment system differs through

[adfly]

The IFE is a newer and better system on the LGW/MAN 744's as they were recently refurbished throughout.

[LadyL2013]

The leisure fleet has just been refurbishd so should be up to the same standard (although different seating on some) to the LHR fleet.

[All names taken]

Thanks folks for those helpful replies.
Virgin U/C it is then.
Will make an interesting comparison to the Delta Business Class product which I think is the best amongst the US carriers.

[blackbeard1]

Do tell us what you think of UC after your flight, normally I fly DL65/64 BE out of MAN and was impressed with Virgin's UC product. So much so that I am using it again to MCO overnighting in MCO before driving down to near RSW for about a months stay there rather than taking DL to RSW, OK I got a very good deal on the flight from AmEx Plat travel.

[PAXboy]

May be a bit of time before we see them in service but this is on the way ...

How A Redesigned Meal Tray Is Saving Virgin Atlantic Millions | Co.Design | business + design (http://www.fastcodesign.com/3029856/terminal-velocity/how-a-redesigned-meal-tray-is-saving-virgin-atlantic-millions)

My concern is not with the tray but the new coffee and tea jugs:
In response to Virgin Atlantic's needs, MAP created an attractive round design with an ergonomic handle and a clever lid with an arrow on it that can be twisted to show what's inside: tea, water, coffee, or hot chocolate.Oh great, so they will continue to put tea into a jug that has previously had coffee in it. For those of us allergic to coffee, it's one more reason to not drink the tea at FL390 and stick to brandy.

[Cazza_fly]

This new tray format and meal service has been in use for about 2 years now... The exception to the separate hot meal then dessert service is on shorter late night flights where it is all offered together at the same time.


As for the jugs sometimes logistics and the space onboard can make it hard to guarantee either pot can only be used for just a single type of hot drink despite it seeming just a simple task... I can say though most crew will try and separate them however and make sure they are well rinsed before each use so not to be serving the well know inflight t-offee

[Capetonian]

As for the jugs sometimes logistics and the space onboard can make it hard to guarantee either pot can only be used for just a single type of hot drink despite it seeming just a simple task..
Too difficult to have a permanent mark or label then? Or even a different design.
I have also suffered from drinking 'tea' that has been contaminated by coffee, and trust me, it's vile.

[PAXboy]

Thanks Cazza_fly, I've not been on VS for three years but will look out for this in PE in November. The person who sent me the link is usually up to date.

I do appreciate the space problems and one sectors' pax asking for a lot more of tea/coffee than usual. It's a bug bear across many years and in all catering environments!

[crewmeal]

It seems this lady is trying to make a fortune writing a book about something we all know happens in aviation and has done for decades. So nothing really new about it. I certainly won't be spending money on such rubbish.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2626348/Id-party-world-come-home-smelling-trapped-wind-What-10-years-working-air-stewardess-REALLY-like.html

[All names taken]

Blackbeard 1 Quote:/<<<Do tell us what you think of UC after your flight, normally I fly DL65/64 BE out of MAN and was impressed with Virgin's UC product. So much so that I am using it again to MCO overnighting in MCO before driving down to near RSW for about a months stay there rather than taking DL to RSW, OK I got a very good deal on the flight from AmEx Plat travel.>>>

Been meaning to get back to you on this. Flight a couple of weeks back. Orlando - Manchester. I wanted the non-stop Atlanta-Manchester but it wasn't available for whatever reason so they flew me over the short distance to Orlando for the Virgin flight.
I was on a Delta ticket so felt a bit of an oddity.

Boarding was a screw up because I had a Delta boarding pass and they couldn't get their act together. I had to stand like a naughty child just to the side of the main queue for far too long. Sky Priority went out of the window since half the plane had boarded before they could sort my boarding pass out.
So in fairness, I boarded in a grumpy mood.

Onto the plane. UC had a load factor of 100% so I guess the bean counters would be happy.
The welcoming drink had to be placed onto a silly and badly thought out pop out mini table which is awkwardly placed over your shoulder and is compromised by the reading lamp which gets in the way.

The food and service was impeccable. No complaints whatsoever.

My only gripe was that I really didn't like the layout and orientation of the UC cabin. The seats are pointed at too great an angle into the centre and this destroys the concept of personal privacy, which I value greatly in a B Class cabin.
Looking out of your window is more or less impossible and looking across to the windows on the far side as you inevitably do, invites the people over there to wonder why you are staring at them.
Worse than that is that the foot rest doubles up as a seat so that couples can dine together. Trouble is it means that the person is actually closer to you than the person they are dining with. Again - totally undermines any sense of personal privacy.
The seat converts to a lay-flat bed which is good - I had a very decent sleep - however you actually have to get out of the seat whilst the CC actually convert it; which frankly is a pain. It's even more of a pain in the morning when the reverse has to happen.

Overall, I still prefer the Delta experience over the ocean, but the 747 is such a beautiful animal, so quiet and refined. I would probably do the same again one day just to fly her.

[blackbeard1]

Thanks for your feedback All names taken. Many of your points I agree with like the useless drinks tray that won't even take a champagne glass and the difficulty in using the window. I did find the service a little better than Delta where it can be a little hit and miss but I have only used Virgin once so it is not a real comparison. I did like the space on Virgin which does mean you do not feel you are confined to your allotted bit of space and seat. I confess if I have anywhere else to go in the US from Manchester other than the MCO and RSW area it will be on Delta metal.

[SealinkBF]

I agree about the daft "shelf".

I actually find the PE seat on VS more comfortable than the UC one.
But as a fully fledged lush, I like getting moderately hammered at the bar.

[All names taken]

VS UC Product

One more observation for those interested.
The airbridge is connected at both ends of the journey to Door 2.

This means that if you board late like I did, you find it very difficult to get to the UC cabin as you have to go through the PE cabin to get there with the inevitable farting about that people do in aisles and overhead bins (what is wrong with people that they are so disorganized?).

On arrival, the PE cabin disembarks first then the UC pax get off alongside the Economy pax at the back. So if you're at the front of the UC cabin, right in the nose, there could be 60-80 people in front of you at the immigration queue including standard economy pax.
Isn't one of the big benefits of paying for a premium cabin that you get off first and therefore to the front of the queue and out of the airport quicker?
Not with Virgin.

[Skipness One Echo]

I know at LHR, BA seem to disembark from Door 1L and reposition the bridge to 2L for boarding if there's only the one.

[LAX_LHR]

I know at LHR, BA seem to disembark from Door 1L and reposition the bridge to 2L for boarding if there's only the one.


Not always. Been on plenty of mid-J B747's (where WT+ is behind F) and the jetbridge has been attached to 2L. Crew either try their best to keep WT+ seated and get F off first, or, admit defeat and just let WT+ off as quickly as they can followed by F (so, not a bad perk for those in WT+ really).

[CabinCrewe]

Any recent BA 747 trips in F ive boarded and disembarked from 1L.

[Skipness One Echo]

Seems Delta and Virgin are involved in some schedule changes this winter, with VS launching ATL and DL to LAX, each rotation at the expense of the partner.

[davidjohnson6]

What's the reason for swapping rotations ? Better sized aircraft for each route in winter or is it marketing wanting to be touchy-feely with the public before deeper integration that will be of higher visibility to customers ?

[SealinkBF]

I think this is about expanding each airlines 'footprint' in the States - so as to provide as wide a range of connections as possible.

So your die hard Virgin fans can now choose VS to ATL, and likewise with DL to LAX.

[azz767]

Just wondering if all of the beech fleet had been re-fitted and if not, which ones haven't? Im off to orlando on 25th of june from Manchester and am hoping for the new product, if there is still frames with the old product

[adfly]

I think they all have been re-fitted for over a year now so you have nothing to worry about!

[caaardiff]

I've just had an email advising these changes:

- 5th Daily LHR-JFK service
- Daily LHR-DTW service, currently operated by DL but VS taking on.
- Additional daily LHR-LAX service
- 2nd Daily LHR-ATL service (Summer only)
- Additional LHR-SFO (Extra 5 a week)
- 2nd Daily LHR-MIA (Winter only)
- Daily MAN-ATL service

- DL will take on 1 of the LHR-EWR services
- DL will launch new MAN-JFK service (Summer 15)

- LHR-NRT dropped 31 Jan 15
- LHR-BOM dropped 31 Jan 15
- LHR-YVR dropped after this season
- LHR-CPT dropped 26 Apr 15

Some big changes and strengthening over the Atlantic

[jackieofalltrades]

Some exciting, but not surprising changes. I'm curious as to Virgin dropping the LHR-YVR route. I don't know what the loads were like, I wonder if it was just not profitable enough. I would like to see Virgin expand in to Canada, rather than pull out. I would have thought Toronto and Montreal would have been good places to fly into.

[PAXboy]

For me, the surprise is leaving CPT. After SA did the same, that gives BA the UK monopoly year round. Very curious.

[Capetonian]

SAA can't make UK routes pay because they run the airline as the ANC's private air taxi service. So they're not relevant here other than insofar as they handed passengers to their competitors.

BA can make the route pay with double daily through the summer, and double daily 3 times a week through the rest of the year. Their 777s are certainly more cost effective per RPK than VS's 340-600s, and the 744s may be.

I suspect that VS have got revenue management and marketing wrong on the route, and that there are some internal politics involved in this decision.

[Peter47]

Very interesting all round & I would be interested to hear others views & comments. My view (along I know a number of others) is that VS has been mismanaged for a while. I was wondering if a 49% minority stake would be enough for DL to make changes but it appears that it is. Perhaps SRB has seen the light & taking more of a back seat. A bright future for VS?

I wonder if the problem with YVR is that being a summer only operation VS cannot agree commercial contracts with major customers. I can't see how summer only ORD makes sense & DL does not have a major presence there. I would have thought operate it year round or not at all.

The trouble with NRT is that UK - Japan market is about half what it was twenty years ago & with a BA/JL joint venture serving both NRT & HND things must be tough for VS.

Presumably Lagos, DXB, PVG & HKG are profitable. I wonder about the last without the traffic to/from SYD but I presume that it works as it is a massive O&D market.

Does anyone see any problems with customers booking DL & receiving VS service or vice versa? I'm not saying that one is better but they are different brands and it could cause confusion. I know upset pax who thought that they were flying BA & were actually travelling AA.

[Flitefone]

Qatar Airways have this week announced a 5x weekly Doha - Capetown.

From the UK that means new one stop connections from LHR, MAN and EDI.

It looks to me like Delta's Virgin is less willing to compete with the Gulf carriers..

[rog747]

VAA
loads on YVR were excellent all season (full flights) so surprised that they have not bothered to expand Canada more but are now dumping her for the 2nd time

as for NRT again always good loads (J and W too)
that's a big surprise as it was an old flagship route.

CPT
VAA has bu**ered about with this route since year dot.
Y loads last season dropped off big time but the J & W were VERY busy
How long is the betting before they bring it back again lol:ugh:

LAX
after 20 odd years they FINALLY get to build a Clubhouse:D but ditched the 2nd daily rotation! :ugh:
the movers, shakers & celebs deserted VAA many moons ago so maybe this is an attempt to woo them back?

HKG & JNB should have been double daily years ago - how long before they
get the chop?

DXB has dropped off a lot and Lagos makes a fortune so again why not LOS double daily?


the A340-600 was disappointing and did not perform & the -300's are well past it but they runs on fumes (cheap to run and acquire but expensive now to maintain)
The fleet now is very ''bitty'' to say the least

Delta-Virgin?
I foresee more changes ahead

SRB is widely rumoured to have said to a previous Director,
''what have you done to my airline''

[Capetonian]

Just listening to an 'expert' pontificating (= hy praat kak) on 567 Cape Talk, saying that against 'all the competition' the route isn't viable as half the revenue is in ZAR. Apart from BA the competition is connecting flights via FRA ZRH AMS PAR etc, and in many cases much longer routings (e.g DXB AUH IST) or less desirable such as via ADD NBO CAI etc.

(QR have just announced non-stop DOH CPT using the Dreamliner.)

[rog747]

i agree the ZAR exchange rate issue on CPT revenues plus ticketing fraud has been an impacting factor in VAA's operation there and the competition.

also for many years now a lot of passengers took advantage of using connecting airlines from the UK and EU via somewhere (although a longer trip) to CPT as their preferred way due to cheaper fares and often a better product, seating and aircraft despite the extra flying time and a stop

[Capetonian]

I just checked the fares out of CPT versus those out of LON, and it is difficult to make a full comparison as the fare structures, bases, and rules differ, but roughly the NUC (=USD) values converted from ZAR and GBP are roughly 25% lower out of CPT across the range.

BA's are more or less in line with the above. So why are BA finding the route profitable and VS not?

[rog747]

INDEED capetonian - and also BA has been 747 year round for years, plus in southern summer season with an extra 747 daily

(777 sometimes off season but still daily)

VAA suffered with ex-RSA fares, exchange rates and T/A ticketing fraud

[jackieofalltrades]

VAA loads on YVR were excellent all season (full flights) so surprised that they have not bothered to expand Canada more but are now dumping her for the 2nd time

Reading this makes it all the more disappointing for me to know that they are pulling out of the YVR route. I get the expansion into DTW with the Delta connections there, but would have thought VS could have made YVR and YYZ profitable.

[xray one]

Delta are now wearing the trousers. Any time they want VAA to start a new route/add a service then something will go as there are no more slots at LHR. With the 787 the NRT, CPT would have been profitable, but the USA routes even more so.

This now leaves VAA vulnerable to a USA downturn. Something they said was would never happen again post 9/11...Delta would just hide behind Chapter 11.

[Epsomdog]

The move to T2 happens next week. Does anyone know how things are going, load wise? Can we expect the move into the Star Alliance Terminal to have a positive effect on them?

[Fairdealfrank]

I've just had an email advising these changes:

- 5th Daily LHR-JFK service
- Daily LHR-DTW service, currently operated by DL but VS taking on.
- Additional daily LHR-LAX service
- 2nd Daily LHR-ATL service (Summer only)
- Additional LHR-SFO (Extra 5 a week)
- 2nd Daily LHR-MIA (Winter only)
- Daily MAN-ATL service

- DL will take on 1 of the LHR-EWR services
- DL will launch new MAN-JFK service (Summer 15)

- LHR-NRT dropped 31 Jan 15
- LHR-BOM dropped 31 Jan 15
- LHR-YVR dropped after this season
- LHR-CPT dropped 26 Apr 15

Some big changes and strengthening over the Atlantic



Maybe the management have realised that the clue is in the name, “Virgin Atlantic“, not “Virgin UK”.





For me, the surprise is leaving CPT. After SA did the same, that gives BA the UK monopoly year round. Very curious.



Insufficient connection possibilities at the CPT end is my guess. JNB is the major hub for all of southern Africa and beyond.

That said, CPT is a major tourist destination and there must be a significant amount of VFR traffic.





Delta are now wearing the trousers. Any time they want VAA to start a new route/add a service then something will go as there are no more slots at LHR.



And they reckon that a 3rd rwy is not needed till 2030, laughable isn’t it!





The move to T2 happens next week. Does anyone know how things are going, load wise? Can we expect the move into the Star Alliance Terminal to have a positive effect on them?



Hope so, as that was the whole point: to replace the feed formerly provided by BD, and to avoid having to use BA for domestic and near abroad connections.

[highflyer40]

the trouble with YVR is there just isn't enough point to point traffic for a daily service so with just vancouver it was never going to work.

you need a calgary route as well as the vast majority of leisure travellers will open jaw between the two.

[Capetonian]

Insufficient connection possibilities at the CPT end is my guess. JNB is the major hub for all of southern Africa and beyond.
That said, CPT is a major tourist destination and there must be a significant amount of VFR traffic. BA are up against the same problem and it doesn't seem to prevent them from making a success of the route. Both airlines leave the aircraft on the tarmac at CPT (and JNB) between morning arrival and evening departure.
CPT is an increasingly important business destination as well as tourist/VFR.

[22/04]

It seems that Virgin certainly has undergone change; but it is all quite simple, predictable and gives the airline a better chance of survival.

The Atlantic is a joint venture and since it is risk sharing it is expected that DL will have a say. They will want VS to serve their hubs and their customers; this is being achieved.

So we have restored a second daily to LAX (good) seasonal SFO (good), seasonal extra MIA and JFK (good really weren't we saying VS ought to be able to do a second MIA) Atlanta (inevitable) and Detroit (inevitable).

Slots for these have to be found. Look first to non-US seasonal routes -that found YVR and Cape Town. Then to routes where their in severe competition and yield isn't great but which have useful slot times for US routes. Mumbai and Narita, although the inbound time from Japan isn't great. Never mind. DEL and DXB ( and HKG) slots are not great for the US so leave them be at the moment. I'd be watching PVG as that is possibly useful as a US slot next.

QED. It makes sense - it's Virgin Sir Richard but not as we knew it. it is a credible alternative for UK passengers who go to the States and US passengers. It might work the old VS wasn't.

[jackieofalltrades]

The Atlantic is a joint venture and since it is risk sharing it is expected that DL will have a say. They will want VS to serve their hubs and their customers; this is being achieved.

That makes a lot of sense. Do you think we'll see a VS operated LHR-SLC in coming years? The only trans-Atlantic Skyteam out of SLC is the DL flight to CDG. Not sure if the demand will be there. But it will open up a whole section of north-west US from the SLC hub. One connection flights to places there would be useful out of Heathrow.

[Skipness One Echo]

How many connections from SLC are currently not available on one stop from an existing hub?

[jackieofalltrades]

Off the top of my head I don't know the number, but do know there are a number of places in Oregon, Idaho, Utah and Colorado that are only served by Delta via SLC.

[Omnipresent]

I can entirely understand the rationale for the changes but this is quite seismic in the history of Virgin Atlantic. I'm sure Delta will be looking at the performance of the transatlantic business next year, and more announcements will be made.

Tokyo was the 3rd Virgin Atlantic route, launched 25 years ago. Any ambitions to fly to Moscow (if the route is ever liberalised), South America etc. will never be realised.

It is interesting to note that there's been no comment from Sir Richard Branson. I can't help but wonder how the arrival of a major US shareholder and a new CEO from American Airlines has impacted on the culture at the higher management levels of Virgin Atlantic.

[Heathrow Harry]

I'm sure SRB would be happy to sell the whole lot to Delta if the EU would let him

[GrahamK]

Reported today that Little Red to be closed down :ouch:

[Cyber Bob]

Reported where GK?

[topoverhaul]

Sunday Times Business Section Lead

[Artie Fufkin]

Reported today that Little Red to be closed down
Hardly surprising. The only real question is when does the "Delta UK" rebrand occur with Branson getting kneed in the groin by Willie?

Would "Delta UK" keep the beach fleet?

[SWBKCB]

So what happens to the slots if Little Red folds - surely they were ring-fenced for longer?

[Ringwayman]

It was 3 years/6 IATA seasons so they will be surrendering the remedy slots to IAG. Even if they lasted the full 6 seasons, they would be grandfathered into only using the slots for any European route, Moscow, Riyadh or Cairo.

As it stands, the only slots they would have to play with are the MAN slots.

[Omnipresent]

The slots cannot be used for transatlantic flights.

They can only be used for other European flights after three years.

[PAXboy]

The telegraph article of today: Virgin?s Little Red flies 60pc empty - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/10882835/Virgins-Little-Red-flies-60pc-empty.html) speaks of the well known problems and speaks of improvements they ware looking for but NO mention of 'being closed down'. So I suggest that you review your comments.

In my view, the problems here date from the unwilling approach of Sir Michael Bishop to go into parternship with BMI. This ultimately led his airline falling into the hands of the very company he strove so long to avoid, BA.

Friends going to CPT in October bemoaned that they had 'Hobson's Choice' going BA. Since BA are running a 744 every day and a further x3 777 rotations - you gotta think there is spare capacity. Now, I do understand the problems of doing business in South Africa but if they are still having ticket fraud that is their fault.

I agree with all of Omnipresent's comments, as VS has been my first choice for long haul for 25 years but I am also one of those who has been talking of the inevitable reduction in carriers and their concentration into a few mega-companies who will use various brands to operate the routes. The top companies are: OneWorld, SkyTeam, Star Alliance.

Also, if you do biz with the Americans - they are going to focus on America. Eventhough the focus is now on the Middle and Far East. The big era of America and Europe is past it's peak. In the same way that SMB held out against a logical partnership with SRB, the long discussed deal with Singapore should probably have been done. that would have placed the balanceweight in the right place for the 21st Century. Such is the history of big business.

[CaptainDoony]

Paxboy - That telegraph article is from June.

Having read the paper version, the Times seems to contradict itself completely. All I see is an alleged quote from Craig Kreeger saying that LR will need to cover its costs etc to have a future but it's still in a growth stage so too early to draw any conclusions. Another unnamed source said that during the review of routes "LHR transfer traffic isn't what it once was" or words to that effect.

Although I don't expect LR to be here for the long haul, I think this is just another glorified rag trying to shift some extra copies by jumping to conclusions.

[Artie Fufkin]

I'm sure SRB would be happy to sell the whole lot to Delta if the EU would let him

When BA/AA got regulatory approval to coordinate their flights from Heathrow to the US, Branson publicly stated that VA couldn't compete with them, that it was game over for VA and asked Deutchesbank to find a buyer for his 51% share. What happened was rather odd. DB found a buyer for, not Branson's shareholding, but Singapore's 49% shareholding (Delta) and suddenly Branson seemed happy. Willie Walsh soon afterwards publicly bet Branson that Virgin would't exist in 5 years time. Its almost like he had heard some not-published detail of the Virgin/ Delta deal.

Since they bought in, Delta have conspicuously been in control, despite having a minority shareholding. What's really going on here? Is there more to the deal than was published? Is Branson babysitting his share of the company whilst the business is reorganised into a shape that would allow Delta to buy out Branson's share too? A UK airline that operates exclusively between the UK and US could be bought by a US company (as I understand it)

Little Red's only VA owned slot (a none remedy slot) has already been sold to Delta, Little Red is being shut down and there is a large cull in all non US flights. If the beach fleet is sold on to another UK holiday operator that would leave Virgin in a state that could be sold to a US company like Delta. Am I being too sceptical?

paxboy - sunday times article (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/business/Companies/article1455799.ece)

[CabinCrewe]

most on here could have told you 2 years ago that this was never going to last. But pride, ego, slot grabbing and "getting at" BA seem to carry more weight than obvious business sense. Would appear that business sense now is coming from DL than anyone internal at VS....

[PAXboy]

Misread dates. apologies. I agree that, at the time of launch, it seemed too little too late in the mature domestic market, sorry it has not worked.

When I saw Sir MB hold out too long for his company to go where he wanted it to go - I thought it a prime example of pride before a fall.

Whether Sir RB was the one who prevented a fuller role of Singapore, we will probably never know. I'm sure that there are some who claim to know but all I recall was much drawn out argy-bargy and Singapore eventually walking away. I sit to be corrected on that.

But, quite apart from Delta's machinations, the dire financial situation for the USA and Europe means that more consolidation will have to happen. In the UK, there are many reasons why IAG has, and will, prevail.

[rog747]

Hi Paxboy

SRB may have walked too far in SMB footsteps

re the SQ tie-up that never was -
VS and SQ never managed to exchange or join up the dots on anything much
that was noticeable nor seemingly beneficial to either.
SRB did not lose out though on the deal.

likewise the same happened with VS and Virgin Oz,
no links and in fact Voz is now partnered with Eithad via AUH.

No code shares on VS from LHR with Voz via SFO, LAX or DXB (or HKG)

so much for joining the dots and brands for seamless travel

[goldeneye]

I do wonder if VS & VA will work closer together now. Giving that DL and VA code share on flights to Australia.

[Epsomdog]

It was 3 years/6 IATA seasons so they will be surrendering the remedy slots to IAG. Even if they lasted the full 6 seasons, they would be grandfathered into only using the slots for any European route, Moscow, Riyadh or Cairo.

As it stands, the only slots they would have to play with are the MAN slots.

Slots won't go to IAG. If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

[Capetonian]

Now, I do understand the problems of doing business in South Africa but if they are still having ticket fraud that is their fault.Couldn't agree more. All airlines doing business in ZA (and in fact in most of Africa, Nigeria particularly being the worst) have to contend with this and it happens to be an area in which I have some professional knowledge, on revenue protection and integrity, and let me add, not as a fraudster! I've also, in a personal capacity, been a victim of credit card fraud whereby my card was used for fraudulent purchases on flysaa.com. I was able to follow the trail and pick up exactly what was done and how, and was quite honestly shocked at how insecure the procedures that allowed this to happen were.

There are plenty of ways of avoiding fraud, never 100% effective, but the combination of inadequate staff training, procedures not documented and upheld, and bullying overbearing fraudsters at the ticket desks is always going to end in tears.

[Ringwayman]

If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

Thought VS were awarded the slots and not EI. Who uses them on there behalf shouldn't matter?

[Cyrano]

Slots won't go to IAG. If Little Red walk away from EDI ABZ, slots, will default to EI to continue those routes.

Are you suggesting this on the basis that EI is the wet-lease operator or on the basis that EI was also in the bidding for the slots themselves originally?

I'd have thought (though I am open to being corrected) that if they walk away, the trustees will look for new bids. Could we see easyjet appearing at LHR? :cool:

[Epsomdog]

Thought VS were awarded the slots and not EI. Who uses them on there behalf shouldn't matter?

They were remedy slots, designed to ensure competition on the ABZ/EDI/LHR routes. VS were awarded them on condition that they operated the routes. Part of the EI/VS deal set up for the Little Red operation, states EI will get the option to operate the services if VS walk away.

[BasilBush]

That's interesting Epsomdog - do you have a source for that statement?

I assume that the competition authorities will decide where the slots end up, although the fact that EI was the only other serious bidder for the remedy slots means that it is pretty likely that EI will end up with them. But I imagine there is some process to go through - it isn't quite as simple as VS just handing them to EI?

EDIT

My reading of the original decision is that EI don't get a look in. If VS 'misuse' the transferred slots (eg by not operating on the remedy routes) then the slots are returned to IAG. VS have no legal right to offer the slots to anyone else. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be an opportunity for a second bite at the cherry by other prospective carriers. But maybe I've missed something in the more obscure parts of the decision.

[Yellow Sun]

In my view, the problems here date from the unwilling approach of Sir Michael Bishop to go into parternship with BMI. This ultimately led his airline falling into the hands of the very company he strove so long to avoid, BA.

When I saw Sir MB hold out too long for his company to go where he wanted it to go - I thought it a prime example of pride before a fall.


The object of the exercise was for SMB to leave the building with the largest possible amount of cash. He really couldn't have cared less where it came from. In the period leading up to his departure the aim was to ensure that others subsidised the operation through the ECA until such time as he could exercise his put option with DLH.

He was a very successful businessman; not an empire builder; and probably has more in common with Michael O'Leary than anyone else in the industry.

YS

[Fairdealfrank]

I'd have thought (though I am open to being corrected) that if they walk away, the trustees will look for new bids. Could we see easyjet appearing at LHR?


Possibly, but U2 don't do through-ticketing. Could see U2 at LHR chasing business pax and taking on BA if and when it is expanded.

[PAXboy]

Yellow Sun Thank you, very interesting. So he was one of the 'biggest pile of money wins and ya-boo-sucks' brigade? There are many of them around. As an outsider, it is my perception that Branson is not one of those - but I know he has plenty of detractors who would argue otherwise.

Overall, the collection of Virgin travel comapnies (including the holiday tours ones, hot air balloons and so on) have missed a great opportunity. They could have formed a network that was not a big 'HQ' telling everyone what to do - but a sort of 'Confederation' and retained their local independence.

Too late now.

[LNIDA]

The only other airline that could make the remedy slots work and be effective against IAG on internal UK flights into LHR would be easy jet, although they may have to tweak their baggage allowance to take self connecting traffic even then i would suspect it would do little more than break even unless they could get a deals with non IAG airlines at LHR, the application of APD to connecting long haul flights add ££'s to ticket costs that you can avoid by self connecting at say AMS

[rog747]

easy jet has long maintained that LHR is not on their re-mit

costs and logistics are enormous which is not in EZY's mission

cannot see EZY ever at LHR tbh

I can see DL taking VS 100% or IAG picking up the roadkill of LR (oh the irony)

[wallp]

Earlier this year Carolyn McCall wouldn't rule out ever flying from Heathrow

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articles/2014/06/03/48183/easyjet+would+consider+flying+from+heathrow.html

Whilst its unlikely, never say never.


As for Virgin Little Red, was it simply bad business logic that led to them competing on these domestic routes. I must confess I always found it strange why they thought Aberdeen would be a good route and given Virgin's rail connections between London & Manchester, why effectively compete with themselves? The one route I thought might stand a chance is LHR - Edinburgh but it seems not?

[T250]

The EDI route was always the best route for LR to/from LHR. Loads were typically in the 70-130 pax region.

Unfortunately MAN and ABZ routes were astonishingly low, ABZ regularly no more than 40-50 pax per flight and MAN no more than 60-70 pax per flight.

Obviously anyone can see this wasn't sustainable! :hmm:

[Joe Curry]

I thought might stand a chance is Edinburgh

Perhaps at least one long haul direct (Mumbai or Delhi) might work?

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Joe, if you mean from EDI to Mumbai or Delhi, I can't see how, where is the market? I understand the largest Indian community in Scotland isn't in Edinburgh, but even then its doubtful if a route could be supported.

IMO Virgin's best way forward, certainly in Scotland, is a part or full week based aircraft, developed like Manchester, with MCO LAS JFK BGI as destinations. The 744 is too big, the 789 might be ideal, in a LGW style configuration. JFK would link with Delta's network.

Though sadly, I think this may never happen given the current uncertainty.

[Skipness One Echo]

Perhaps at least one long haul direct (Mumbai or Delhi) might work?
It's not "what might work", and this example is fairly unlikely given VS just dropped LHR-BOM which fed onto exisiting US flights, of which EDI has no VS or DL long haul. Imagine the scenario where a code sharing, revenue sharing DL/VS transatlantic joint venture is deciding where to place their new multi million $ Boeings. Scotland-India would be so far off the list as to be off the page as it's not a core market or even part of the JV, added to the fact that Edinburgh doesn't have much of an Indian community.

[CabinCrewe]

...why let that get in the away of fantasy

[Capetonian]

Virgin's best way forward, certainly in Scotland, is a part or full week based aircraftI'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you are suggesting a weekly frequency (one rotation a week) they don't work as the higher revenue passengers require the flexibility of a daily service, so the lower frequency services primatily attract low revenue passengers.

The common misconception is that if you are 50% filling 7 flights a week you can 100% fill 3 flights a week as that is (roughly) the same number of passengers. It doesn't work that way, you will lose passenger volume as they spill onto other carriers offering better flexibility.

[Joe Curry]

...why let that get in the away of fantasy

The former BAA CEO of Scottish Airports was fantasying when he said this?

"Mr Dowds said several million Edinburgh passengers a year were
travelling to long-haul destinations via other airports when they could
be served by direct routes."

Source: £400 million bill to expand airport - The Scotsman (http://news.scotsman.com/edinburgh.cfm?id=551632005)

[Joe Curry]

largest Indian community in Scotland isn't in Edinburgh

Airport catchments do not really reflect endemic populations, if an airport is convenient and accessible and offers connections, direct or otherwise, they will use it.

This from RASCO highlights Scotland's central belt access times.

1-hour access time by road:

To Edinburgh Airport : 2,536m or 50.1% of the Scottish population
To Glasgow Airport : 1,982m or 39.2% of the Scottish population
To Prestwick Airport : 1,401m or 27.7% of the Scottish population

2-hour access by road:

To Edinburgh Airport : 4,01m or 79.2% of the Scottish population
To Glasgow Airport : 3,756m or 74.2% of the Scottish population
To Prestwick Airport : 3,407m or 67.3% of the Scottish population

[The Royal Family]

Could you confirm for me then; if VS drop the LHR-MAN/EDI/ABZ routes then EI can take up the slots as they currently operate the wet lease aircraft. Thanks.

[Shed-on-a-Pole]

Regardless of the potential for Scotland - India traffic, Virgin Atlantic will not be the carrier launching a service. The clear message from last week is that North Atlantic routes to the USA in conjunction with Delta are the future focus. That is where any new initiatives (from Scotland or elsewhere) will be seen.

[Hangar6]

MAN slots were and are VS slots so no on those,

Regards the other routes, I am not sure, EI bid for them and were the only other carrier, other than VS interested in them at that time, it's possible EI would get them with conditions but I believe the Times story is not based on fact rather it's
Their opinion of the current route prospects

[Skipness One Echo]

Airport catchments do not really reflect endemic populations, if an airport is convenient and accessible and offers connections, direct or otherwise, they will use it.
Well that's a start but :
1) Price has to be right
2) Frequency matters, if EK/QR/EY can offer a daily one stop for cheaper than a twice weekly non stop route, then the latter will not work, see PIA at Glasgow for proof.
3) There's not enough Indians in Scotland to maker irt viable unless you assume that Pakistanis (there's loads of them in Glasgow) are the same as Indians and they'll happily connect over Mumbai.....think about it ! By your own stats Joe, PIK should be doing way better, once again you choose the stats you fancy and present them in isolation.

[SWBKCB]

To Edinburgh Airport : 2,536m or 50.1% of the Scottish population

Blimey, didn't realise so many people lived in Scotland - wonder it hasn't sunk into the sea! :E

[BasilBush]

Hangar 6 and The Royal Family

Under the original agreement the 'remedy' slots revert to IAG if VS fail to use them on the relevant routes for 3 full years. It is definitely not the case that EI would automatically inherit the slots, although I am not clear whether the slot trustee would invite bids from airlines to take over from VS. In which case EI might bid.

As Hangar 6 says, this only applies to the EDI and ABZ slots. The MAN slots are nothing to do with the 'remedy' issues and always belonged to VS.

As for VS's rather limp response to the Sunday Times article, one reason might be that the original agreement includes penalties for VS if they return the slots at a time which results in IAG losing their 'grandfathering' rights to the slots. However there is a window during each scheduling season when VS can notify their intention to terminate the slot agreement without risking such a penalty. The next window appears to be the two-week period that follows the next IATA scheduling conference, which is in November. So we might expect VS to confirm their withdrawal sometime between November 14th and 28th, presumably effective from the Summer 2015 scheduling season.

[Joe Curry]

see PIA at Glasgow for proof.

Perhaps PIA were not aware of the RASCO findings?

[Ringwayman]

It's not about the numbers in the catchment area. It's about the numbers of people in the catchment area all wanting to go to the same place. EK has the convenience of double daily. PK was just 2 or 3 weekly going to the community that has 4 times as many potential customers as EDI. Perhaps you are going to tell is the EK is not aware of those finding as well.

For EDI-India, you want to have a limited frequency VS operation going up against both QR and EY...what's in it for VS apart from red ink? They were loathe to even contemplate MAN-HKG which had the potential to not need connections at either end given the size of the market

[Joe Curry]

Perhaps you are going to tell is the EK is not aware of those finding as well.

EK obviously had assured 'no competition' from BAA who pulled the strings at their then central Scotland airports. It will be interesting how aware EK become
when the forthcoming competition begins to bite.

[Skipness One Echo]

Perhaps PIA were not aware of the RASCO findings?
The RASCO findings are a set of statistical measurements. They are an abstract measurement whereas loads, yields, passenger behaviour(s) are quantifiable real world measurable activities. The second set is human driven and we're not entirely rational, that's Marketing 1-01. Joe you just like to argue for the sake of it sometimes and it's always pro EDI vs bad BAA / GLA.

This is the Virgin thread, not the BAA bashing one. Virgin are not launching EDI-India in your lifetime, or even mine....

[Flying.Penguin]

I can't understand why VS don't just close down all operations from Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester and Glasgow and move lock-stock and barrel to Edinburgh. It is the world's major CAPITAL with a castle after all. Hell, to this day I still don't know why BA have yet to relocate their hub to EGPH. Would solve the problem of a third-runway at EGLL over night.

Did I mention that Edinburgh is a capital and it has a castle?

[Joe Curry]

Did I mention that Edinburgh is a capital and it has a castle?

Many times and in many guises.:rolleyes:

[CabinCrewe]

The RASCO figures I have access to appear to be over 15 years old, surely we are not making wild assumptions based on those ? Or have I missed much more recent data ?

[canberra97]

Flying Penguin I am assuming that was a pathetic and humerous suggestion?

[wesleyscott]

Extra Sunday flight to MCO next summer

BBC News - Virgin adds new flights from Glasgow in summer 2015 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29442007)

[Epsomdog]

Rumour is, VS have signed or re-affirmed handling contracts at EDI & ABZ. No word on MAN.

[T250]

...and what about LHR??? :yuk:

[CKT789]

Recent article on Virgin:
www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2014/10/virgin-atlantics-woes

Wish people would stop quoting the loads to May. Travelled with them a lot since launch and loads from EDI are much better since DL code share started.

[VickersVicount]

Again use the service every second week, but haven't noticed a great deal of difference to be honest except perhaps early August, still on average less than 2/3 full with some depending on the flight barely 25% full. Although the same can be said of some BA flights.

[TCAS FAN]

Flew Little Red MAN-LHR this weekend, very pleasant experience, was even persuaded to accept a complimentary g&t on what was a very short sector. About 65 PAX southbound and I believe 82 to go back northbound. Long may it last, expect to try EDI next.

[Cyrano]

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Atlantic ends Little Red domestic service - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11143578/Sir-Richard-Bransons-Virgin-Atlantic-ends-Little-Red-domestic-service.html)

Manchester ends in March 2015, Scottish routes end in September 2015.

Why such long notice? Probably to ensure that they get grandfather rights on the LHR slots... :cool:

[MCDU2]

More likely tied into the break clauses with Aer Lingus and penalties involved. Have heard various rumours thrown about the place of carrots being dangled in order to extract themselves from the contract.

[SWBKCB]

So what happens to the slots?

[Fairdealfrank]

So what happens to the slots?


AFAIK (and plse correct if this is wrong), another carrier can take them on to do ABZ and EDI; failing that, another carrier can take them on to do ABZ, EDI, CAI, any MOW, and/or RUH (subject to bilaterals in some cases); failing that, the slots revert to BA.

[airhumberside]

Nice is the other route the slots could be used on by another carrier

[BasilBush]

I think that's right, Fairdealfrank, although I believe that it's the slot trustee who has to approve any other carrier, rather than VS simply handing the slots to someone else. In practice I imagine that the slots (other than those used for MAN which always belonged to VS) will revert to IAG. IAG can then use them as they see fit (ie they won't be bound by the same restrictions on destinations as VS were).