Virgin Atlantic

[Bluebaron]

Rumours been going on for some time but looks like they are hotting up!

Virgin Atlantic Receives A String Of Approaches Over Possible Tie-Up Or Merger | Business | Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Business/Virgin-Atlantic-Receives-A-String-Of-Approaches-Over-Possible-Tie-Up-Or-Merger/Article/201012315855446?lpos=Business_First_Buisness_Article_Teaser_ Region_1&lid=ARTICLE_15855446_Virgin_Atlantic_Receives_A_String_Of_Ap proaches_Over_Possible_Tie-Up_Or_Merger)

[411A]

Who will Buy Virgin Atlantic?

BA perhaps...so they can get their well trained CC in quick time, in order to replace BA's present malcontent CC...in equally quick time.:}

[Basil]

. or perhaps not if this (http://www.pprune.org/cabin-crew/436747-whats-going-virgin-lately-v2.html)chap's comment is anything to go by:

I have however noticed a real change in the overall attitude of the cabin crew recently (I fly Virgin every couple of months to return to the US to see family) and just wondered if anyone knew why this may be?

[sb_sfo]

I wonder if they can keep going as an independent (given their ownership structure) niche player when every deal these days seems to be about alliances. SkyTeam would seem to be the logical choice.

[sky9]

The old rumour was a tie up with B Midland, Lufthansa were never very happy at having to buy Mr Bishop out. Tying in Lufthansa Singapore and Virgin would make a lot of sense for the Star Alliance.

[Agaricus bisporus]

Any idea how much it's worth?
No I'll rephrase that, any idea how much it might sell for?

[helen-damnation]

Keep an eye on the middle east :}

[LD12986]

Keep an eye on the middle east

Though EU ownership rules prevent a non-EU airline taking a majority stake and I think that is one of the main stumbling blocks to any deal with a US/Middle Eastern carrier. SQ's 49% stake has been up for sale for literally years and there haven't been any serious contenders for it.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Hmmm I don't see it as very likely any of the Middle Eastern carriers getting too involved with this deal; they're extremely focussed on their own bases out in the homelands and would be reluctant to explore 'new' territories.

I'd expect VS to be holding talks with an American carrier something along the lines of Delta / United / American (maybe?) as well as some European big players such as Lufthansa or bmi... I remember something coming out a little while ago about VS wanting to explore the short haul sector, so I wouldn't be suprised to see a potential interest with the likes of Thomson / First Choice / TAP.

[SuperStewardess]

Or easyJet..? :ok:

[ImPlaneCrazy]

Ha! I specifically resisted the urge to put easyJet but still... two completely different business models so can't see those getting together. At least with the likes of Thomson / FC etc there is still a pretty large focus on premium service, whereas with the LoCo's it's more of a price dominated sector.

Could also explain why VS have purchased 2 A333s without Upper Class suites, maybe looking into the simply Premium + Economy config for charter routes?

[Aero Mad]

The fact that they are A333s would also add to this possible theory.

[411A]

I'd expect VS to be holding talks with an American carrier something along the lines of Delta / United / American (maybe?) as well as some European big players such as Lufthansa or bmi...
Your expectations might well be spot on, as our Dir Marketing (the original ex-Laker head honcho in the same capacity) says...'expect a surprise'.
He won't say more (jungle drumbs beating) and I ain't asking.:\

[The SSK]

ImPlaneCrazy: Hmmm I don't see it as very likely any of the Middle Eastern carriers getting too involved with this deal; they're extremely focussed on their own bases out in the homelands and would be reluctant to explore 'new' territories.

Not so. Emirates tried to buy Austrian. Etihad has reportedly tendered for 30% of Montenegro Airlines. Both Emirates and Qatar are in the running to buy 49% of Adria. Qatar has just concluded a deal with the Romanians to give them fifth-freedom rights out of Bucharest.

Of course they are looking to expand outside their tiny home market. Qatar (pop 1.5 million) has more widebody seats in its orderbook than British Airways has in its current fleet.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

I'd expect VS to be holding talks with an American carrier something along the lines of Delta / United / American (maybe?)

Your expectations might well be spot on, as our Dir Marketing (the original ex-Laker head honcho in the same capacity) says...'expect a surprise'.
He won't say more (jungle drumbs beating) and I ain't asking.

Those jungle drums seem to be spelling D-E-L-T-A to me.

What cost to buy Singapore's 49% complete with associated LHR slots, immediate access to unserved-by-Delta California - LHR and all routes East and South, compared to the overinflated prices all the US carriers paid for access to LHR just a couple of years ago?

Could be a relative bargain.

Rgds

[Whitehatter]

No serious contender will want to be involved until the Cold Hand of Branson has a few fingers severed and he loses the majority stakeholder position. That alone has ensured the Singaporean stake remained unsaleable.

Any kind of flotation or restructuring of Virgin Atlantic will need the existing shareholders to be reduced or eliminated, with a nod to the EU rules. For that alone it'll be a tough deal to try and call. Many potential bidders won't fancy Sir Beard being involved in their companies either which means share swaps may not be the ideal solution.

BTW the two A333 with no Upper are for MAN and LGW Orlando services that traditionally haven't sold well in the front cabin, as they are packed out with Virgin Holidays punters off to see the mouse.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

Virgin Atlantic Has Been Approached About Deals - NYTimes.com (http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/virgin-atlantic-says-its-been-approached-about-deals/)

Another reference to Delta.

[Seljuk22]

Tony Fernandes (Air Asia) has just contradicted rumours that he would buy Virgin Atlantic.

[Skipness One Echo]

For an airline that rolled out a whole new livery this year they've stopped painting. Three B747-400s and that was it. Telling?

The A340s that came back from storage went straight into service.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

I highly doubt that they have stopped painting; with all of the disruption that has been of late I'd say it's put a right spanner in the works regarding their painting schedule with all aircraft being stuck in overseas locations and utilised to the max with recovery flights etc.

They will get done... sometime! :bored:

[sky9]

One thing is for sure, if the airline is to continue using the Virgin name it will require a regular heftly slug into an account in the BVI.

He might sell but he won't stop receiving income from the company if there's a V on the tail.

[Skipness One Echo]

I highly doubt that they have stopped painting; with all of the disruption that has been of late I'd say it's put a right spanner in the works regarding their painting schedule with all aircraft being stuck in overseas locations and utilised to the max with recovery flights etc

They did three back in the summer, long before this weather arrived. Whole new corporate identity, yet to be seen on an Airbus. It just chimes with the fact that things might be changing.

[LD12986]

Tony Fernandes (Air Asia) has just contradicted rumours that he would buy Virgin Atlantic.


If the speculation about BD before it was bought by LH is anything to go by then The Sunday Times (the original source of the rumour) will string this story out for months with a new potential buyer of VS every single week. They'll probably get to BA eventually!

[OldBristolFreighter]

Late last year Virgin announced extended schedule for LGW - Caribbean routes from Oct. 2011.
I hear the proposed new Monday Tobago/Grenada flight isn’t expected in GND. Anyone know what’s happening?

[viscount702]

Like the extra MAN BGI it seems to be starting in December now rather than earlier as in the press release

[ImPlaneCrazy]

First extra service from LGW to GND via TAB to commence on 12/12/2011. No idea why, maybe a bit of a delay in the delivery of their new 330's...

[spannersatcx]

No idea why, maybe a bit of a delay in the delivery of their new 330's... They're only getting 2! start flying in April from MAN, then a month later out of LGW.

The other 3 are being leased to somewhere in China/:confused:

[GROUNDHOG]

Good I will still be on a 747 when I fly to Barbados in March then!

[Skipness One Echo]

The other 3 are being leased to somewhere in China

I heard this ages ago. Is this confirmed? I guess the A343s will be here a little longer? Interesting....

[Wycombe]

Groundhog said:

Good I will still be on a 747 when I fly to Barbados in March then!

If you are not bothered that the LGW/MAN 744's have archaic IFE then maybe it is good.

I'm sure the experience in the 330 will be much more "modern".

Of course if you are flying in Upper then ignore these comments as the 330's won't have it.

[spannersatcx]

I heard this ages ago. Is this confirmed? Yes...........

[GROUNDHOG]

Wycombe - You are right though I hope better than TCX A330. I just like the idea of four big engines under the wings, irrational but I just am more comfortable flying transatlantic that way. Indeed this trip four of us booked VS premium where we would normally use BA WTP because BA use the 777.There is a thread on how much people like the 747 on pax and slf.

Fully aware though of the economics and why the change is taking place

[ANstar]

The other 3 are being leased to somewhere in China

Thats a shame. Is it do with the new UPPER not fitting or lack of demand for growth?

I know they have 5 more in 2012 that are due to go to LHR, but as for these 3 that are being sent to china - will they ever come back to VS?

[2J&D]

Quote:
Good I will still be on a 747 when I fly to Barbados in March then!
If you are not bothered that the LGW/MAN 744's have archaic IFE then maybe it is good.



The majority of time they use a LHR based 747 due the fact it has more Upper Class seats. So there is every possibility you will actually get the better IFE etc.

[Gpik]

Where has it been confirmed? The company is normally good at telling us info just before it's released to the general public and we've heard nothing.

[ImPlaneCrazy]

They're only getting 2! start flying in April from MAN, then a month later out of LGW.

The other 3 are being leased to somewhere in China/
True indeed, but those extra 2 aircraft therefore free up other aircraft to operate the routes; a delay in delivery time would mean no spare aircraft to operate these sectors and therefore could explain the push back! :ok:And Groundhog if your lucky they sometimes operate a LHR config aircraft out to Barbados so fingers crossed you get one of those...

[Ian Brooks]

Remember the Gatwick B747 are going through some heavy work so will be a B747 down for quite a while

Ian B

[Kestrel_Stu]

According to the Telegraph (via Flight), Air France-KLM / Delta are preparing to make an approach.

Air France-KLM, Delta reportedly team up for Virgin approach (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/21/353425/air-france-klm-delta-reportedly-team-up-for-virgin.html)

while TTG reports Etihad will do the same.

Air France and Delta examine bid for Virgin Atlantic (http://www.ttglive.com/c/portal/layout?p_l_id=3208370&CMPI_SHARED_articleId=4601973&CMPI_SHARED_ImageArticleId=4601973&CMPI_SHARED_articleIdRelated=4601973&CMPI_SHARED_ToolsArticleId=4601973&CMPI_SHARED_CommentArticleId=4601973&articleTitle=Air%20France%20and%20Delta%20examine%20bid%20fo r%20Virgin%20Atlantic)

[Shingles]

They may need to sharpen up their act what with the ASA about to take on internet complaints: "Virgin promote a deal for advance booking for the Gatwick Express - they claim the offer is a for a “special 5% discount”.
That is certainly a special offer because tickets are sold on the Gatwick Express website at a standard discount of 10%...."
More here (http://insidetraveller.co.uk/blog/?p=1458).

[CabinCrewe]

Isnt one of the VS A330's being leased to Astraeus for onward sublease ?

[AP1995]

virgin have ordered 10 A330'S 4 will be leased to china airlines and the other 6 for virgin

[LGS6753]

Willie Walsh has told a conference in Switzerland that he would be interested in Virgin, but only for its LHR slots. He was disparaging about airline brands owned by a 'personality'.

I wonder if VS has a post-Branson future, or would it become a part of Delta, Etihad or whoever?

[NEastMidlands]

G-VSXY is in Zurich at the moment

[spannersatcx]

virgin have ordered 10 A330'S 4 will be leased to china airlines and the other 6 for virgin

5 and 3 as far as I know. leaving 2.

[Cyrano]

Willie Walsh has told a conference in Switzerland that he would be interested in Virgin, but only for its LHR slots. He was disparaging about airline brands owned by a 'personality'.


Although in fairness (I was there, as perhaps were you), I thought the specific target of his disparaging comments was easyJet/Stelios rather than Virgin/Branson.

[Peter47]

There is a very interesting article in Flight this week, also avaialable on their website about Virgin being insistent on keeping its brand are restructuring.

Virgin Atlantic to retain Virgin brand after strategic review (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/22/353490/virgin-atlantic-to-retain-virgin-brand-after-strategic.html)

All very interesting. I have heard it suggested that one reason why Virgin is a marginally profitable airline (as Singapore airlines knows too well) but Branson is a billionaire is that VS pays Virgin Management a small fortune for its brand and other services. If VS keeps its brand the franchise agreement will doubtless give Branson significant control over its running.

This gives rise to the question that whilst VS would undoubtably be worth acquiring not just for its slots but also its route structure and assets, would you wish to include its brand and the services of the Virgin Group?

It is undoubtably a safe airline, its pilots can fly, maintenance is fine, etc - all of the things that are regulated - but talking to some recent flyers and looking at sites on the web (OK a few flyers and we can all discuss the reliability of sites such as Skytrax but lets not right now) VS's quality of customer care is slipping. Thats not somehing that can't be turned around - many an airline has gone through a poor patch and emerged stronger (BA in the late 70s for a start) but if I were a CEO I'm not sure that I would want to keep the brand.

Rumours are that the three alliances aren't to keen for VS to join, at lease on RB's terms.

VS is 49% owned by SQ which has a very strong brand. Much as BA would like VS for its slots there would be obvious questions about competition. Lets say that LH purcahsed all of VS or just RB's 51%. The combination of LH group airlines (BD, VS, LH, LX, OS etc) at LHR would be formidable particularly with BD opening more medium haul routes.

This raises an interesting question branding. Lufthansa UK is a possibility - the same has happened in Italy - as is BMI but here's a long shot. Say SQ still owns 49% (which could yet be very lucrative), how about Singapore (UK) with the UK in a very small font. Leaving aside how oriental VS's flight attendents look Singapore Airlines is a very strong brand.

Any views on what I have said welcome (but please be polite if you think that I have written utter rubbish).

[MUFC_fan]

This raises an interesting question branding. Lufthansa UK is a possibility - the same has happened in Italy - as is BMI but here's a long shot.


I have wondered this for some time.

BMI is a well know UK brand however I'm not sure of it's public image any more.

I'd love to see MAN see the launch of such an airline with routes to the continent - we can only dream...

VS would be a no no for IAG though, surely? The EU would laugh at it no?

Now if only there was a third runway at LHR - would SRB like to place an order for A320NEOs and really go for it?:p

[TSR2]

would SRB like to place an order for A320NEOs and really go for it
SRB has recently placed an order for 60 A320's which includes 30 A320NEO's.

Pity they are destined for Virgin America.

[JSCL]

Virgin got their big moment tonight!

BBC - Watchdog: Virgin: Solid as a rock (star)? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/watchdog/2011/05/virgin_rockstar.html)

[Wycombe]

...not forgetting of course that Virgin Holidays and Virgin Atlantic are entirely separate legal entities. As far as I know Virgin Hols buy seats on VS flights just like any other tour operator.

[JSCL]

It's just like Jet2 and Jet2Holidays. Read the bottom - "a virgin Atlantic spokesperson" - they are the as one together.

[JTONeil]

Would Virgin benefit from a feeder airline? Much of BA's long haul passengers (where the money is) comes from outside the UK, helpfully provided by their short haul operation.

It's been reported many times that Virgin would love to acquire BMI, though it's never happened. Others have suggested easyJet, but they have no Heathrow presence (and probably never will) so the future for Virgin could be rocky.

People who choose Virgin over BA on competing routes do so perhaps for the traditionally better service, or the more modern feel to the airline, but if these attributes are slipping, as reported by others above, then what else can they do to compete with a resurgent BA?

I think the future for Virgin has to include some kind of short haul feeder alliance, particularly in light of growth at Madrid CDG and AMS.

JT

[JSCL]

Oh entirely, I'm still surprised they haven't.

[airbourne]

I am infrequent Virgin traveller. Firstly, I have a certain knowledge of the airline industry, and am fairly tech savvy, so I can trawl the internet looking for flights at the best price, get the seats I want etc etc. So its with that in mind that I look at the Virgin product and see massive holes in it.

Why was there a massive difference between the LHR and LGW fleets? Is the LGW customer not as important as someone flying from LHR? Is their money not the same? 2 years ago I flew LGW-LAS on a tatty 744 in premium economy. The return was SFO-LHR as in PE and it was such a vast difference, from the seating, ife, the crew, meals etc. I know the fleet has now gotten an upgrade, but thats just not acceptable.

I do not find Virgin to be the great company it once was. That puts me off flying them, and to be honest, they are not cheap. If they expect their customers to pay a premium to fly with them, at least have a better product that the competition.

Incidentally, when I booked that flight with Virgin Atlantic, LGW-LAS and SFO-LHR, they didnt offer me Virgin America for the LAS-SFO leg!!!

[easyflyer83]

I feel your pain but ultimately you can argue fairly convincingly that you are paying for the transportation and actual service and that the "hard product" is a by-product. In fairness to Virgin, they aren't the only airline with such a differing hard product. Some airlines have a vastly different offering.... just look at Delta's widebody fleet and even across the Emirates fleet in certain classes.

Virgin are actually quite savvy in that they place the better hard product on the LHR routes which are probably more profitable with high premium demand whilst ex LGW is mainly leisure and demand swings more towards the rear cabin.

Overall though, Virgin are often viewed as the holy grail.....usually by joe public these days, but they really aren't as innovative as they once were. They aren't a bad airline at all but some do expect more than what they actually get and can be dissapointed. I'm not at all saying that you were one of these people.

You mentioned the crew.........FYI, LGW crew are dual based and so operate LGW and LHR.

[Skipness One Echo]

Overall though, Virgin are often viewed as the holy grail.....usually by joe public these days, but they really aren't as innovative as they once were. They aren't a bad airline at all but some do expect more than what they actually get and can be dissapointed. I'm not at all saying that you were one of these people.

They're absolutely not these days. The feedback on the LGW / MAN B744 fleet is utterly appaling as is the punctuality out of Gatwick. Quite why this is I am not sure as they have a morning only operation with the exception of the 1pm LGW-MCO and more than a two hour turn for each of the aircraft. LGW is far from a slick machine which given it's still technically home base has got to be a concern.

They seem way more concerned with changing the pretty colours and the font on the aircraft than overhauling a former world leading brand where it matters. Having said that even the website maintains the old vibrant purple branding from 2000 with the exception of the header on the top LHS.

They can't even buy new A330s and get them into service without a massive balls up in the project management of the new Premium product. This meant having two brand new aircraft dropped into leisure routes at the last minute instead of premium routes out of LHR and the rest desperately leased out at the last minute leaving the leases on the ageing A340-300s to be extended again. As for each of the Virgin airlines talking to each other, forget it!

[adfly]

Although I see your point Skipiness I think the LGW/MAN fleet are for more in need of a refit and also the new A330's compared to the A340-300s at LHR, especially considering they already have the latest Premium Products and they only really need new ife. Although why they didn't bring in a few A330's on some of the shorter routes (BOS, IAD, ORD, DXB) instead of leasing them out baffles me. :confused:

[spannersatcx]

The refit starts next year, new cabin and IFE. It was planned for a few years ago but the economy fell through the floor, now it is up again, the refits will now go ahead.

[easyflyer83]

Absolutely. I've have colleagues who have worked for VS ex MAN (and LGW) and they always comment on the difference onboard when compared with LHR. Certainly ex MAN this is compounded by the very high expectations that those who have saved one or two years to see Mickey Mouse, have.

[on time all the time]

hi,
The problem Virgin has with the A330 is that it only has got 2 engines. One will remember the "4 engines 4 long haul" written on the fuselage of the fleet......
Virgin ordered 10 A330 but forgot that as an airline they needed to get the CAA approval for ETOPS operation. This can only be achieved after long preparation and a 6 months proving flying....
Also remember that we are going through an economic crisis and Virgin was quick to offload staff.
So if you combine the 2 you get an airline with 10 twin engines but no one to fly them....well few Thomas Cook pilots......

[Gpik]

I don't think they forgot to get CAA approval for ETOPS as they were granted ETOPs at 180mins weeks before the aircraft entered into service. Not sure what you meant by that statement? They had this approved before they operated any commercial flights with the aircraft.

[Skipness One Echo]

Although why they didn't bring in a few A330's on some of the shorter routes (BOS, IAD, ORD, DXB) instead of leasing them out baffles me.

The project management on the new Business Class was messed up so no product in place ready for the £ millions of Airbus arriving. Hence stick them full of economy seats and give them to LGW / MAN / GLA for a year.

[airbourne]

easyflyer83,

Number of Virgin aircraft 39
Number of Delta aircraft 698

To have so different standards with a company that has less that 40 aircraft it unacceptable.

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Anyone know if the upcoming B744 refits will result in a product matching the A346, or will they be "next gen"? Would be nice to think so - mind you they'll probably fire them over to the Row, and dump the skankier ones back at LGW/MAN/GLA.... Having said that, are there enough LHR based B744s already upgraded??

[easyflyer83]

airbourne

I don't see you're logic. You can still fly one route with DL and have a completely different experience on another. Why does fleet size have anything to do with it. The passenger doesn't take that into consideration and wouldn't always believe that it should be. Plus we both know that DL has a huge domestic fleet that we can take out of the equation here.

When VPort was launched for example, the LGW 744's were still relatively new so why replace them there and then? Refurbishment, admittedly, has taken longer but again there are still airlines where you get a PTV on some long haul sectors but not on others. PTV's being just one consideration of the hard product of course.

I'm not necassarilly saying it's right or certainly not ideal but is it a disgrace? Probably not.

[sealink]

I am due to travel with VS for the first time in August. Booked LGW LAS return. I am quite excited about the trip and looking forward to the flight but from what ive read on previous threads im a little anxious now. Flyong from LGW does not sound like a great experience?

[easyflyer83]

Sealink, don't worry. Basically, the "hard product" (i.e interior, PTV's etc) aren't as good as many of the LHR machines. Last year I flew a sector on a A343 (that has a similar hard product to LGW aircraft) and it was fine....infact it was an enjoyable flight. It's just that the LHR aircraft are actually very well equipped and so the difference between the two is very noticable and it's taken them a while to start updating those ar LGW/MAN. Put simply, the product on your aircraft, in Economy atleast, will still be leaps and bounds ahead of some of the other carriers you could have chosen to LAS.

The actual inflight service is very similar if not identical and the crew operate both LGW and LHR so there is no "second tier" crew mentality. Even if there was, you can still have bad and good crew regardless of airline or base.

[sam1993]

I flew with Virgin from Gatwick to Orlando last Easter and whilst the product is not as good as the one offered from Heathrow, I found it perfectly reasonable for the price paid. It should also be noted that most people only write a review when they are unhappy and few write one to praise the service.
This website is especially useful for Virgin Atlantic flights e.t.c: V-Flyer: The Independent Virgin Travel Community for Virgin Atlantic, Virgin America and Virgin Blue (http://v-flyer.com/)

[Thedonkeycentrehalf]

Absolutely. I've have colleagues who have worked for VS ex MAN (and LGW) and they always comment on the difference onboard when compared with LHR. Certainly ex MAN this is compounded by the very high expectations that those who have saved one or two years to see Mickey Mouse, have.

These high expectations are driven by the VA/VH marketing team. All those lovely TV adverts showing the premium service, the real hyping in the brochures of a premier service which the LGW/MAN fleet is just not capable of delivering.

When you are promised a wide selection of films and games and then find you are on a bird with the Nova system - especially when it fails - is not what you were sold. Most people will (understandably) think that they are not getting the product they signed up to whereas we all know that the ticket you buy is to transport you from A-B, anything else is just a bonus.

Of course, people then talk about the old planes on the LGW/MAN routes which isn't actually true - the planes aren't that old but the fittings are tired and the IFE is now outdated. However, if you have booked a trip of a lifetime to Florida, Vegas or the Caribbean then the fact that the physical plane is fine isn't going to cut much ice.

[crewmeal]

Flight crew of Virgin Atlantic jet arrested for allegedly stealing cash a passenger paid for an upgrade | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3618782/Flight-crew-of-Virgin-Atlantic-jet-arrested-for-allegedly-stealing-cash-a-passenger-paid-for-an-upgrade.html)

If this is true how on earth do they think they could have got away with it. Back in the 70's when BA started the shuttle services to GLA & EDI, it was a license to print money, because it was part of the cabin crew's job to collect the fare!!!

[Skipness One Echo]

Gatwick to Cancun just been confirmed for a Mon 14-Jun-2012 start, replacing the dropped Kingston route it seems.

[clareview]

Virgin has recently taken delivery of 2 A330's but I am not aware of any expansion of routes or frequency. That suggests that they are replacements but for what - B747, A340/300 or A340/600?

[spannersatcx]

1 A343 going back off lease in July so 1 less of them!

MAN is now 2x daily instead of 10 a week, so some expansion, although less seats available on the 330's!

[OntimeexceptACARS]

Think G-VHOL and G-VSEA are both going back. They're not far off 20 years old you know! :eek:

[sam1993]

Pilots are to stike unless a deal can be reached soon...
BBC News - Virgin Atlantic pilots vote to strike (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-13863341)

[sam1993]

First Virgin A340 in the new colour scheme:
Photo 23530 - Virgin Atlantic Airways Airbus A340-313X G-VELD at Manchester - Plane Mad (http://www.plane-mad.com/aviation-photos/view/virgin-atlantic-airways/airbus-a340-300/manchester/23530.html)
Second A340 (G-VAIR) positioned up to Manchester for painting today.

[jabird]

Sam,

How many logo changes have VS been through now in their history now? By comparions, Ryanair have changed little since introducing the 737, don't think Easy has changed at all since day 1, apart from swapping phone for .com and even BA have been steady since dropping the dodgy tailfins. Virgin seem to be going through a permanent rebrand.

[LD12986]

A return to profit for Virgin, but a rather downbeat assessment of the year ahead:

Virgin Atlantic Airways - Popup (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/allaboutus/pressoffice/index.jsp)

Pre-tax operating profit of £18.5m

Revenues increased by 13% to £2.7bn

Cargo revenue increased by 39% to £224m

82% load factor

Strong year end cash position of £562m

New London to Accra route launched

"Whilst we have been very focused on trading the airline back to profitability, we have worked hard to introduce new aircraft, new routes and extra rotations to the existing network where there has been high demand. This year we are investing heavily in new product innovation so that we retain and enhance our leadership in customer service and experience," said Steve Ridgway.

Virgin Holidays also recorded a strong performance driven by high demand for its core Orlando and Caribbean holidays. The company is doubling its UK retail network to 120 stores, creating 200 jobs nationwide.

Quarter 1 2011/12 (1st March to 31st May 2011)

Total revenue up by 7.6% to £658m

Two new Airbus A330s introduced on leisure routes

New Manchester to Las Vegas route launched

Steve Ridgway said: "Since the turn of the year, market conditions have become tougher with increased capacity, faltering consumer confidence and high fuel prices. We are also seeing softer trading in the areas that are hit hardest by the continued rises in Air Passenger Duty, particularly the Caribbean routes and Premium Economy cabins. Whilst business traffic remains strong, demand in the economy cabin is more challenged."

[airbourne]

Dear Steve,

Maybe if you made your product better, to tourist passengers, people might return and your wouldnt be so downbeat about the next year! When you have a sh1t product, passengers will go somewhere else! simple!!!

Regards,

Me!

[LD12986]

It has to be said that as a percentage of sales the profit margin is very thin and there's no breakdown as to where the money is being made (eg Virgin Holidays or LHR).

[JSCL]

Good chance of a CWL route if RB bought a Twotter and flew it in to LHR or MAN for ongoing connections.

[JSCL]

Doubtful, he would just ask BMI regional to fly it and interline, like they already do.

[Cyrano]

Good chance of a CWL route if RB bought a Twotter and flew it in to LHR or MAN for ongoing connections.
Doubtful, he would just ask BMI regional to fly it and interline, like they already do.
Er... would the real JSCL care to make himself/herself known? Are you some sort of collective login? Are you just debating yourself in public? Or did you accidentally leave yourself logged in and inadvertently allow some passing 12-year-old to post under your name proposing Twin Otters feeding connecting traffic to LHR? ;)

[JSCL]

Some probationary user made posts I was responding to, they got deleted. He was proposing Virgin at CWL, so my joke post was the twotters because that's all they'd fill :)

[sealink]

Just returned from a trip to Vegas using Virgin for the first time. Not impressed at all. The aircraft for both trips i believe to be OP. I felt like i was travelling on a charter airline using an old 747. Uncomfortable seating, poor inflight entertainment, poor food and really sulky crew. Check in at LGW or should i say " bag drop " was chaotic!
So not impressed at all. I wonder is this the service standard on all LGW departures. Is LHR better.... it would need to be.

[spannersatcx]

It is essentially a charter airline out of LGW/MAN.

[JSCL]

Virgin isn't the only one that's like this in terms of mentality - put the proper goods out of LHR where the higher fare paying pax are transiting and stuff the older (not really that old) and stuffier stuff via MAN and LGW.

[airbourne]

You all say this like its ok to be a 'charter operation' and treat the passenger like sh1t! Why should the economy leisure paz be treated with less respect than someone that flys from a different hub. It sounds like you all justify it!

[davidjohnson6]

The economy leisure pax at LGW and MAN are generally paying less for their flight than those at LHR, tend to be more price sensitive, and have fewer options to switch to an alternate airline. Thus, VS have greater market power with these passengers, compared to those at LHR who will happily pay big bucks for a flight and can easily switch to an alternate carrier.

Yes, it would be nice if pax flying from LGW on VS to the Caribbean could be given brand new planes fitted out with the latest entertainment kit, marvellous food, champagne and excellent customer service, but this all costs money, for which most of these pax are reluctant to pay.

An airline is meant to be run as a business, despite what the pax seem to think !

[adfly]

I think upgraded planes make a fairly significant difference to a passengers choice when flying long haul, even if its not the case with short haul. This may encourage them to choose VS again even if they are not the cheapest option. Thompson have had great feedback from their long haul product ever since it was upgraded a few years ago so I don't see how the same can't happen for VS's beach fleet. Its also worth noting that Thomson are also very competitively priced and often cheaper than BA/VS, even if they do not offer the same flexibility and frequencies.

Also, as for alternative options for LGW/MAN/GLA you have:

British Airways
Thomson Airways
Monarch
Thomas Cook

So there is plenty of competition on the long haul leisure routes although I do realize all of the above airlines do not aim themselves at the same type of customer.

[clareview]

Lot of criticism of Virgin aircraft flying leisure routes as being tatty and dated. Arn't the brand new A330's flying leisure routes?

[NEastMidlands]

Arn't the brand new A330's flying leisure routes?

Yes. However the best or worst thing i have heard someone travelling on the A330 is

Its small and we would prefer to fly on the B747, followed by their comments having returned on the b747, it was tatty and we didnt like it. :ugh:

[Skipness One Echo]

The economy leisure pax at LGW and MAN are generally paying less for their flight than those at LHR,

Not sure this is the case with VS. They have a monopoly on LGW-LAS and only BA compete on most of the direct Carribbean destinations with any frequency, with TOM / FCA a good option as well. Compare that with being competitive on LON-NYC out of LHR.....

There are some good off peak deals but even visiting Mickey Mouse on Virgin will cost you an arm and a leg, so I suspect they have a captive audience they are making a good margin on. Remember BA's long haul out of LGW was (allegedly) the only part of the company making money during the worst times of the last few years. That's a good indicator of a stable yield.

Aren't the brand new A330's flying leisure routes?
VS028 / 027 LGW-MCO
VS076 / 075 MAN-MCO
VS072 / 071 GLA-MCO

Dedicated to Disneyland.

[xluk]

The LGW/MAN 747 Fleet are being upgraded between April and October, they will feature a new Upper class suite,mood lighting, 777 style interiors throughout and the new economy seat as featured on the A330. The 'JAM' IFE from the 330 will also be installed on all LGW/MAN 747, which although well overdue will mean the leisure routes will feature the latest VA product, leaving LHR behind until there updated.
Its true LGW fleet are well overdue the re-furb but as mentioned in an earlier post, these are leisure routes where passenger demand is very price sensitive, so it had to be put on hold until the Airline was in a financial position to invest the millions needed for the project, which thankfully is almost here. The fact competitors on these routes such as TCX have plans to take out seat back ife due to costs etc, this investment will once again put VA at the top of its game where it once was.

[AP1995]

will VS be adding any more routes too MAN with new aircraft being delivered & the opening off the new V room?

[xluk]

No new routes from MAN confirmed as far as I've heard, the remaining 330's that are being delivered next year will be joining the LHR fleet so no new aircraft to join LGW/MAN. All that has been confirmed is the 747 re-fit program. However who knows, I personally think MAN will feature heavily in VA future expansion plans.

[Skipness One Echo]

I personally think MAN will feature heavily in VA future expansion plans.
VA is V Australia, but you never know.....

From starting ops in 1997, they've had MCO, added BGI in winter 2005, seasonal UVF in winter 2006 (since dropped) and LAS this summer.
All of these used to be sold heavily on BMI out of MAN with Virgin Holidays so beyond the "beach fleet" destinations currently served out of out of LGW, I would see NO expansion out of MAN for VS.

They can't do US destinations as the US carriers have them sewn up out of MAN and are struggling with overcapacity to a Europe struggling economically so yields are down. Looking East, the over capacity increase on EK / EY / QR would make that commercial suicide as they couldn't match price on a direct daily service versus a one stop via the gulf hubs.

That leaves from the beach fleet destinations :

KIN (being dropped out of LGW so unlikely)
MBJ
ANU / UVF possibly more viable on the A333
GND / TAB
HAV
SJU

In all honesty, the best VS will ever do out of MAN is daily (double daily some days) to Orlando and a based A333 doing a suite of once / twice weekly from the above. I cannot foresee any business case for that airline to do anything beyond that. Certainly point to point outside of London Heathrow looks impossible alas.
(unless of course the shiny new B787 does actually "change everything" which seems unlikely in the extreme, it'll just be way more efficient doing most of the current things!)

[spannersatcx]

the 330's have panasonic eX2 IFE, not sure what JAM is. The 330's are off to ZRH for a retro fit of an addition to this, but can't sat what it is, I know, but can't say.

The 744's as stated are off for interior refurb and installation of eX2.

[BHX5DME]

BHX should be talking to Virgin, a A330 to MCO would work very well.

[sealink]

The fare paid LGW LAS return was in excess of £800 per passenger. Price sensitive passengers have been mentioned in earlier forums. When i have paid that amount of money and i received shoddy service .... it made me very sensitive !!

[clareview]

Colleague in July 2011 Man to Las Vegas plus 6 nights hotel for under £700 - thats certainly price sensitive

[TSR2]

Man to Las Vegas plus 6 nights hotel for under £700

Yes, but what hotel !

[JSCL]

Biggest hotel in Nevada, and I'll bet you need to take your own tent!

[clareview]

4* on the strip

[Skipness One Echo]

As I and others have said above, the Virgin "leisure" and beach fleets appear to have good yields, I suspect the B744 may be too big for MAN-LAS, hence the discounting. BMI ran a twice weekly A332 which I suspect would be a better fit.

[WHBM]

Re Virgn and tatty interiors :

The first Virgin flight I ever took was LHR-LAX in early 1996. Aircraft was a 747-400 (G-VHOT) only about 18 months old at the time. I couldn't believe how the interior had got full of worn and broken fittings, seats etc in such a short length of time. I'd actually never seen an aircraft interior like it before. I still recall the IFE controls (novelty at the time) were notably worn through. And this was in Upper Class ! I presumed that nobody from maintenance had replaced a single cabin fitting since it was built.

Looks like not a lot has changed.

[OltonPete]

Virgin Atlantic Will Join an Alliance Soon, Says Richard Branson - Forbes (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonbruner/2011/09/14/virgin-atlantic-will-join-an-alliance-soon-says-richard-branson/?partner=yahootix)

Star or Skyteam?

Pete

[LD12986]

VS is to launch a seasonal 4 weekly service to YVR next summer. SFO also increases from 7 to 10 weekly (presumably using the same slot pair).

Virgin Atlantic's hat in the ring to buy BMI - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/8872043/Virgin-Atlantics-hat-in-the-ring-to-buy-BMI.html)

[Skipness One Echo]

We haven’t done formal due diligence yet; neither have they. That will start now. The big issue for IAG is how they are going to get this past the regulators because, on 60pc of the routes that BA and BMI fly together, there will be no competition. A lot of business people and travellers in the regions will be concerned. About 1.6m passengers every year connect through Heathrow just from Aberdeen, Manchester and Edinburgh and they will no longer have a choice if British Airways is successful because the only carrier on the route will be British Airways.”

This utter claptrap angers me. He's talking like there's a lot of them. Two below are really partner routes BSL is Swiss, VIE is Austrian and frankly Berlin is more suited to Lufthansa. All will have competition. The only routes without competition are UK domestics but there is healthy competition out of LGW, STN, LTN and LCY. Ridgeway is a poor CEO if he thinks the list below raises major issues of consumer choice.

Routes with BA and BD head to head :
LHR-ABZ
LHR-EDI
LHR-MAN

LHR-BSL ( LX really, was moved from LCY and given to BD )
LHR-TXL ( LH route )
LHR-VIE ( OS really, slots given up on LH buy out of OS ) Existing OS competition

LHR-CAI : Strong competition from Egyptair on new B777-300ERs

LHR-DMM : Strong competition from Saudia
LHR-JED
LHR-RUH

Imagine Virgin trying to take over BMI. I mean just think about the balance sheet. Does the world have enough red ink?
Think of Singapore's reaction as more of their investment in VS disappears. Think of the stunning success of Virgin Express.
Think of BD in T1 and VS in T3.
Who is this man trying to fool?

This is Pan Am / National territory. There are NO synergies. Virgin's big new idea is 4 weekly against Air Canada and BA on LHR-YVR. FOUR WEEKLY?
Utter tosh, all mouth no trousers. VS are getting a reputation for spin before action every time, no wonder their advertising is set in the 80s!

[davidjohnson6]

Skipness - you reckon Virgin are talking rubbish. I reckon they are too. Virgin may also know they are talking rubbish. DLH may have been very happy to sell bmi to Virgin as long as Virgin could actually come up with the money. Virgin also know that barring unforeseen events, the sale of bmi to IAG by Lufthansa is pretty much a done deal, and there's almost nothing Virgin can do to stop a formal contract being signed.

The only thing now remaining for Virgin to do, is to put media pressure on the CAA or the EU to show they are acting in the interest of the consumer and make IAG surrender slots or in some other way make it harder for IAG to compete against Virgin.

It's spin, the whole spin and nothing but the spin and the main parties know it. Joe Smith reading some fluff article in the paper doesn't know where spin merges into reality, wants to know "the Govt will do something" and hence the possibility of BA being required to lease out some extra slots.

The accountants and lawyers have done much of the heavy lifting in the transaction. Now it's time to let the PR people and lobbyists have their turn. Cringeworthy but it'll all blow over in a few days

[Ringwayman]

I also recollect Branson talking in the early 2000s of them operating 5 daily LHR-MAN services i.e. prior to bmi competing with BA. Granted that Virgin Trains is dumping capacity between Manchester and London in a way that wouldn't be allowed in the aviation industry, why would Branson want to compete with himself?

Even allowing for them relying on connecting passengers they hardly have the network of services to allow them to acheive a critical mass to make this domestic service worthwhile.


i've also found this: Branson's 2006 bid for bmi (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/bmi-diamond-club/615485-branson-bidding-bmi-admitted-radio-4-a.html) with an interesting statement regarding LHR-MAN

[Skipness One Echo]

I also recollect Branson talking in the early 2000s of them operating 5 daily LHR-MAN services

I well recollect Virgin expressing interest in GLA-JFK if BA were ever to pull off, got a lot of column inches. Still waiting.

In all seriousness though, they have added 2 A330-300s to the beach fleet this year and are claiming the following :

The great Virgin A330 debacle 2011
G-VSXY and G-VKSS delivered without Upper Class due massive cock up, into service on MAN / LGW / GLA-MCO.
G-VLUV and G-VGEM not delivered and currently on last minute lease to Air China, both are expected back summer 2012.
G-VINE stored all white for the whole summer, just delivered to LGW.

They have five more due next summer. So Virgin announce seven more flights per week out of LHR and yet are expecting to take delivery of EIGHT new A330s before the next twelve months are out?
Factor in ONE B744 at at time out of commision for refit and the fact that all the A343s that are going have gone, and things clearly are not adding up.

[Aero Mad]

I thought that they weren't so much as without Upper Class due massive cock up but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?

[StoneyBridge Radar]

but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?

Ever tried getting a late availability UC seat on MANMCO ?

Have tried for 2 next May on days the B744 operates; full.

Burning BA miles instead and taking the 207/6 to MIA via LHR in F.

[Mr A Tis]

VS premium seats out of MAN are just as rare to get as are the economy seats.

4 x a week LHR-YVR against BA & AC ? They would probably have more success on MAN-YVR where they would only be against Air Transat.
The MAN-YVR has always been massive right back to the Wardair days. Try getting a seat on TS or the previous TCX seasonal services - always full.(inc premium)

[Skipness One Echo]

but more due to the fact that most people going on these sorts of holidays to Florida weren't going Upper Class leaving some of the aircraft empty?

Cause and effect round the wrong way I'm afraid. The project management to get the new seats on time went wrong so Plan B, like BMI was chuck them on leisure from the regions! (and LGW !)

Actually I think VS do really well out of LGW, LHR, MAN and GLA and I think if they raised their game they could do better and succeed where BMI could not. However again like BMI, they're obsessed with LHR where frankly, they're only getting less competitive.

[WHBM]

4 x a week LHR-YVR against BA & AC ? They would probably have more success on MAN-YVR where they would only be against Air Transat.
The MAN-YVR has always been massive right back to the Wardair days.
Always been bottom market for revenue out of Manchester though - and I speak as one who more than once was on good old Wardair on exactly this route on a 747 (stopping also at Prestwick but 95% were from MAN). And they've always been summer-only schedules, rest of the year minimal or no service, which has always suited Canadian charter carriers whose peak time is winter, taking the snowbound down to the Caribbean etc

In recent times I've been on BA LHR-YVR, and have noticed the extent to which my seatmates were (like me) business rather than VFR travellers. Mining industry, film industry, ocean shipping, computers. A completely different market. I agree Virgin are not going to do well in this market with 4 times a week. Times when this worked for business travellers have gone, especially when all your competitors are daily (I hear BA are going up to double daily nonstop to YVR).

[GROUNDHOG]

Disagree re LHR/YVR the loads should be good, every time I have flown BA premium it has always been full and the loads in Club and economy make me think they are little different.
Having made a number of transatlantic crossings on VS and BA in the last couple of years give me VS for a better in flight service but BA for its quality of meals.
Good luck VS and I am sure I will be booking with you soon.

[midland02]

Virgin to long haul is really just what BD was to short haul. BD went up against BA offering a different (superior) service and managed to create some healthy competition (full A321 mostly business class at one point on domestic routes). Unfortunately for BD, low cost carriers prevented them from keeping the yields that were available on shorthaul and with the high cost base (in short) ended up chipping away at the network and starting dropping routes here and there and becoming obsessed with LHR / midhaul which although had a sound enough business plan didnt get the yields in from connecting passengers to really work.

Virgin are similar with long haul basically competing directly with BA offering a different service and again cherry picking and chipping away at routes till they get the balance of frequency and being able to fill planes / have yields to make money. The difference is Virgin dont have low cost carrier competition and have managed to ride out the storm and so far have kept their place.

The way I see them going forward is to revamp their product keep it innovative and fresh (no room for tatty interiors). They need to offer something different to BA more younger / trendier. They should also try and build up leisure from the regions where BA do not compete. This would give BA some healthy competition on major LHR routes which would in turn keep them investing in their own products but still give us a major national carrier that will allow our ecomnomy to grow. There is no sense in Virgin just doubling up more routes out of LHR to the same places already served by BA and they dont have the cash to subsidise the new routes in Asia that BA want to start up.

Virgin needs to build on what it is good at and make it a different experience to other carriers. I see them even joining Skyteam or possible Start or at least linking better with Virgin America /Australia to provide seamless onwards connections in the US/AUS with the same product style.

[crewmeal]

Virgin are notorious for throwing their toys out the pram every time BA 'do' something. They complain of unfair tactics etc etc. This has been going on for years. They feel it's a 'David and Goliath' situation and usually get nowhere. As will be the case with BMI. LH have sold it to IAG and that will be that!

Virgin need to get their own house in order instead of BA bashing. Instead of spending money painting anti BA slogans on aircraft as they did in the past, they should be spending it on refurbishing their 744's, sort out what they will be doing with the 343's, getting their 343's up to standard.

[xray one]

Midland02 sums things up quite well.

The problem Virgin and the fare paying public have, is that if BA get too strong, they could eventually have a long term goal of pushing Virgin out of LHR, regardless of how good their product is, by purposely offering fares on the Virgin route structure at a loss. Eventually having a total monopoly on short and long haul out of LHR and, therefore, charging what they like.

As it is with BMI probably going BAs way (regardless of what Ridgeway says), the business traveller will have no choice when landing into LHR other than fly with BA to regional airports. The only other option would be get the train to Gatwick etc and fly with the low cost carriers which ain't going to happen.

[Skipness One Echo]

Outside domestics, the major markets all have competition. It's a very British thing to have this "second force" mantra, passed from BUA, to BCAL, Laker and now Virgin. The real competitors are much larger carriers like Lufthansa, Air France and KLM in Europe STAR and Skyteam respectively, and up against Emirates, Etihad et al to the Middle East with the traditional long haul carriers still on the same routes. Cathay, Singapore etc. As for competition to the US, LHR has gone from American and United vs BA and Virgin under Bermuda 2, to Continental moving in and merging to make a stronger United, Delta moving in and adding capacity and quality onto LHR-JFK and maintaining what Northwest had started to US Airways moving in on LHR-PHL. In short, since 2008 LHR has seen the addition of :

CO LHR-EWR, IAH, CLE (since suspended)
NW LHR-MSP, DTW, SEA (since suspended) with DL maintaining MSP and DTW
US LHR-PHL
DL LHR-ATL, JFK, huge ramp up on LHR-JFK on the B764.

In BA's favour, they mow have ATI with American but you can't say LHR-US is a BA monopoly, far from it. It is the US competition added to BA raising it's game added to Virgin not being in an alliance that is making Virgin underperform in comparison. The market is incredibly competitive, it is VS who are not....

[Flightmech]

crewmeal,

The LGW 744's are going through a refurb this winter season.

[StoneyBridge Radar]

The problem Virgin and the fare paying public have, is that if BA get too strong, they could eventually have a long term goal of pushing Virgin out of LHR, regardless of how good their product is, by purposely offering fares on the Virgin route structure at a loss. Eventually having a total monopoly on short and long haul out of LHR and, therefore, charging what they like.


Poppycock !! LHR is one of the most competetive markets in the world. LHR is not just BA and VS; have you looked at a departures board recently?

[spannersatcx]

crewmeal,

The LGW 744's are going through a refurb this winter season.
Actually it starts in spring 2012, well planned to that is.

[xray one]

Poppycock !! LHR is one of the most competetive markets in the world. LHR is not just BA and VS; have you looked at a departures board recently?

So when BA convert most of the BMI slots into long haul routes (and not forgetting the tie-up with AA), and most who have tried American carriers would only do so again on 'pain of death' then not such 'poppycock' i would suggest?

Either way, competition and good competition at that is essential.

[jabird]

One would have thought that, given all the hype over all these 'emerging markets' - VS would be giving BA a good run for their money in them.

So could anyone explain why, iirc, VS were in on PVG first, but retreated from PEK, surely soon to become the world's busiest airport?

I think BOM was relaxed because of competition, but since then Jet Airways & Kingfisher have looked wobbly to say the least, leaving VS serving DEL only, and CCU unserved by direct flights (ex UK).

And I'm sure I've heard it said that SRB eyes up Rio as one of his target markets.

Any reason why these aren't going full throttle?

[Skipness One Echo]

Any reason why these aren't going full throttle?

With the exception of Shanghai, Virgin cherry pick BA's better performing routes and go in after BA has built up the market. In the US it was a good BA and VS versus poor products on the US legacies. However that's changing with BA/AA ATI and Delta and Continental arriving at LHR in 2008. If Virgin launched Rio, they're going against BA in Oneworld and also a strong home carrier with TAM in STAR. Both carriers are in alliances and can clain home advantage at one end, something VS would not be able to do. As these are emerging markets, Virgin may also not have the pockets to take the losses over 2-3 years while the market matures and settles into profit. TAM has reduced Rio-London to thrice weekly for the winter so it's not a gold mine just yet, even LHR-China direct is not that big, or I understand that profitable yet.

[spannersatcx]

Plus they are a small airline & have a very limited amount of equipment at the moment so expanding routes is difficult.

[jabird]

TAM has reduced Rio-London to thrice weekly for the winter so it's not a gold mine just yet, even LHR-China direct is not that big, or I understand that profitable yet.

Well, that I suppose is why they call them emerging markets, as they are indeed just that!

It was the lack of VS on PVG that prompted the post (iirc, the route was launced around 06, not sure when it stopped?).

I think there is an easy expectancy that these routes can only show growth, but obviously not always the case.

[Skipness One Echo]

It was the lack of VS on PVG that prompted the post (iirc, the route was launced around 06, not sure when it stopped?).
It's still a daily A346 out of LHR, it remains the only route from LHR they have launched before BA.

[jabird]

Sorry, I meant PEK!

[sam1993]

Virgin to re-launch Mumbai from the beginning of the winter schedules. Daily flights on the new A330 aircraft.
Latest news | Virgin Atlantic (http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/gb/en/travel-information/latest-news.html)

[adfly]

The bearded one sumps up the anti-runway 3 politicians well in this interview. Good to see those who actually realise the economic benefits of aviation ramping up the pressure on our silly disorganised government and the putney woman!

BBC News - Branson calls for Heathrow Airport third runway review (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17408295#TWEET105356)

[LiveryMan]

The problem Virgin and the fare paying public have, is that if BA get too strong, they could eventually have a long term goal of pushing Virgin out of LHR, regardless of how good their product is, by purposely offering fares on the Virgin route structure at a loss. Eventually having a total monopoly on short and long haul out of LHR and, therefore, charging what they like.

I call BS on that.
Not only is LHR bigger than BA, but anti-competition stunts like that would not go unchallenged and legal proceedings would ensue.
The problem with underpricing is, often, there is evidence of it. All you have to do is look at tickets prices in the past to raise suspicions.

My own opinion on beardy going nuts about this IAG/BD deal is that he wanted the LHR slots and now that it looks like he won't get them, he's throwing the toys out of the pram.
If he was genuinely worried about British aviation, jobs, the travelling public, etc then he should have tendered a serious bid. Instead he only put down half the amount of the IAG bid on the table. VS are a niche carrier long haul carrier with no domestic network or experience with an interest to expand LHR operations. There is little chance beardy wanted BD to run it.

[Currock Base]

Just out of interest, does anyone know how many slots Virgin have leased out to other carriers? They used to operate more flights from Heathrow than current schedule, so those slots must have gone somewhere.

Presumably someone figured they can make more money leasing the slots than operating a service?

[jackieofalltrades]

I remember reading a few months ago that Virgin were looking to expand routes to include Toronto, Seattle and Salt Lake City. But haven't been able to find again the website where I read this.
Does anybody in the know have any idea if these routes are likely to be started any time in the near future?

[spannersatcx]

Vancouver and Mumbai are the latest routes to be added.

[Aircrew101]

Where are they getting the slots from? Are they cutting back on some routes?

[MKY661]

They are due to get some more A330's in April

[Skipness One Echo]

I believe they had leased some of their slots out to other carriers so they will be returning to VS.

[Currock Base]

So having leased out slots, don't you find it funny that VS didn't use them to operate their own flights considering how Branson is talking about not having enough slots of LHR?

He could use them to operate flights to Scotland and Manchester to create the competition that he's so bothered about.......


I find it pathetic he whinges about lack of slots, but then doesn't use them as it is safe to make guaranteed money leasing them out.

[PAXboy]

Disclaimer: I have never worked for VS, or met Sir Richard, just a satisfied customer of 25 years.

Firstly, it's his job to point out the deficiencies of the system. He can get publicity for the problem of constraint at LHR that his CEO cannot. Indeed that very few can get and that certainly includes Mr Walsh.

Secondly, after Sir Michael (BD) turned them down, they have not been seriously interested in a domestic network as they have done very well without the problems of having one. Certainly who could see them really wanting to start lots of domestic connections on minimum margins? Further, in the past 20 years, the UK has seen the rise of the LCC and regional operations by a number of international carriers. If they could have bagged a domestic carrier 10 years ago? Perhaps. But not now, I think.

Thirdly, if they took the slots back - who is to say that they are at times of day and days of week that would suit their kind of operation? They have very specific kinds of routes which those slots might not be suitable for. Further, in the middle of the darkest recession, would you want to be buying/leasing new aircraft and expanding the operation - or quietly taking the slot money and making sure that you keep the whole airline stable, whilst waiting for better times?

[beardy]

Further, in the middle of the darkest recession, would you want to be buying/leasing new aircraft and expanding the operation - or quietly taking the slot money and making sure that you keep the whole airline stable, whilst waiting for better times?

He seems to be doing both, does that count as falling between 2 stools?

[PAXboy]

In this recession, if I were a shareholder (of any company) I would want:


Stability
Keep you options open for any reasonable opportunity
More stability

[bex88]

vast industry knowledge for a satisfied customer.... The point is Branson is doing his job to try and protect his own interests. Virgin has for a long long time had its own feeder network into heathrow being bmi but and here is the big but, has not had to carry the losses associated with SH ops into LHR.

Given past history taking the moral high ground is a laughable defence of this proposed merger. To be honest I just hope people keep their jobs.

[Skipness One Echo]

Isn't that being a bit of a parasite? Branson has next to nothing to do with VS nowadays.

[johnnychips]

'Virgin Atlantic Airways Limited (operating as Virgin Atlantic) is a British airline owned by Sir Richard Branson's Virgin Group (51%)'.

If I were SRB I'd be very interested in Virgin Atlantic, and use my position as a media star to appear on as many outlets as possible to promote or defend my interests.

I have a probably irrational dislike for the man, though I don't know why.

[Skipness One Echo]

He has no role in the day to day running and has not done so for many years.

[PAXboy]

bex88vast industry knowledge for a satisfied customer....Not really, I worked in general commerce for 27 years, in telecommunications/IT. The companies I was with included international banking, pharmaceuticals and cargo. When in consultancy, I worked for a very wide range of clients of many different types, from local govt to High Street names. I have lived and worked in several different countries in my life, have friends and family in multiple countries, follow current and commercial affairs and so on and so forth.

Lastly, I have been a 'pax' for 46 years, but there is no specialist knowledge for, whilst a nephew is First Officer (current on 737-800) in another country, he only talks about aircraft - and not the business of airlines!

johnnychipsI have a probably irrational dislike for the man, though I don't know why. That's very honest of you. Many folks in here have such a view but never give a reason.

For my part, I think that he is someone who has (as they say) made a difference in life. He has worked hard, he has made money and lost money and, when interviewed he shows himself to be normal and unfussy. He actually listens to the questions and tries to answer them, unlike the professional politician and the professional CEO who tries to say nothing but what he is supposed to say. Lastly, the man has had many public failures and still keeps trying to do more things. There are not many millionaires of [checks Wikipedia] 61 that do that. For those, and some other, reasons - I admire the man.

[High-higher]

I noticed that the VS081 (SJU via ANU) that ran last summer (on saturdays) wasn't in the schedule for this year, it still doesnt show in any of VS's schedules, but as of today Friday the 6th, the VS081 is indeed up and running again...Anybody have any info if this is a one off, or are VS just lazy with their schedules?

Strange because if people are booked on Friday flights from ANU to LGW throughout the summer their tickets will still be showing the original VS034 departure of 16:35, but if the VS081 is in the schedule permanently they will in fact be leaving some 6 hours later.

[Skipness One Echo]

This was a winter only service not a summer one, ran for two seasons and was not re-instated last autumn alas.

[stuinn]

On Virgin website they say they are refitting their 747 at Gatwick with the new entertainment system. I am travelling to Orlando on VS 27 on 28 Apr and returning VS16 on 10 May and wondered if anyone knows if the refit has started and if so the likely hood of the flights I am taking having the new system in. Any advice much appreciated.:ok:

[BOHEuropean]

Refit starts this or next week and will last 5 weeks for the first frame, so you won't be on one.

[giblets]

Virgin eyes BMI slots for launch of UK flights - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9193152/Virgin-eyes-BMI-slots-for-launch-of-UK-flights.html)

Ms Southern told The Daily Telegraph: "We will apply to take up all of the remedy. We think it is important that the 12 pairs of slots stay together. It's only by flying those all together that you get effective competition."

[stab3.5up]

Oh i would say vs wud be a real pain in ba's fr and ei's butt if they git a foot hold in the uk domestic market. fair play to vs and good luck to them. well done

[spannersatcx]

On Virgin website they say they are refitting their 747 at Gatwick with the new entertainment system. I am travelling to Orlando on VS 27 on 28 Apr and returning VS16 on 10 May and wondered if anyone knows if the refit has started and if so the likely hood of the flights I am taking having the new system in. Any advice much appreciated.:ok:

1st a/c flys to HKG for refit on 14th April. I believe there will be a big media event when the a/c returns after the refit.

If either of the flts you are on are on the A330 then they already have the new IFE system fitted.

[stuinn]

Have a delay in Florida to gatwick of 5 hrs at moment. Advised plane tech in Barbados. That is delayed 24hrs. Is a replacement aircraft being drafted in?

[VC10man]

Why do Virgin send their planes to Hong Kong for refits. What is wrong with using British labour?

[JSCL]

VC10man - have you considered the pricing was clearly much better in HKG? :)

[VC10man]

Yes, I thought that would be the reason.
But if BA can use Cardiff, Prestwick and even EMA to service their planes, you would think a patriot like Sir Richard would support British.

[JSCL]

Trust me, he's about as patriotic as Alan Joyce.

[spannersatcx]

work goes to the cheapest bidder.
Most outsourced work has been done in SPL in recent years and now most is done in Manila.
And you do get what you pay for!:(

[waffler]

Just wondering if Virgin carry much cargo on their flights given that they are not in an alliance and do not fly beyond point to point ?

[Skipness One Echo]

Virgin to drop Nairobi route - Business Traveller (http://www.businesstraveller.com/news/virgin-to-drop-nairobi-route)

Virgin Atlantic are dropping LHR-NBO, surprised they did not even try and see if an A333 could make a difference.

[spannersatcx]

They've only got 3 at the moment? 2 go to MCO everyday the other has just started LHR-JFK.

[HH6702]

why cant the 747 to the JFK and they use the A330 for the LHR-NBO

[Skipness One Echo]

They have four more A333s coming before the end of the year.

[spannersatcx]

the 330's have xphone which allows mobile phone use (at a price) on the flight and is being used as part of a sales pitch for the JFK service I guess.

well, when it works that is!:eek:

[OldBristolFreighter]

It seems to have gone fairly quiet on this, do I detect slippage in the refurbishment schedule?

[spannersatcx]

2nd one has already gone to be done, it takes time.

[jabird]

I see SRB wants to start flying to Moscow next year.

Says he'll go daily with a 330, part of a raft of new mid & short haul routes.

Was just wondering if anyone can speculate on which of the 3 MOW area airports he would fly into?

Given previous speculation about domestics, will he be looking at ABZ / EDI / BHD or even GLA?

[Aksai Oiler]

Isn't CAL Moscow West ?

I thought the slots were to be used to promote European/Domestic routes - Moscow is neither (unless I am mistaken). Another case of Branson bull :sad:?

Oiler

[Cyrano]

Isn't CAL Moscow West ?

I thought the slots were to be used to promote European/Domestic routes - Moscow is neither (unless I am mistaken). Another case of Branson bull :sad:?

Oiler

There's a specific set of destinations for which the slots are intended, corresponding to the routes where BA and bmi previously competed. While the focus has been more on EDI/ABZ/MAN, Moscow (and Cairo IIRC) are also on the list. Virgin is not the only UK carrier looking for slots for LHR-MOW (there's at least one other - who, I don't know, but if I had to guess I'd say easyjet) so the slot monitoring trustee (law firm) will have to decide who gets the slots based on an assessment of "consumer benefit". Branson will therefore be doing his utmost to talk up the benefits of a VS service...

[jabird]

Isn't CAL Moscow West ?

Campbeltown? Are the Scottish islands some remote bastion of Communism?

Or did you mean CAI?

[Artie Fufkin]

If Virgin gets hold of the domestic slots, am I right in thinking they only have to run them domestically for a certain period and can then claim the route isn't working and change the slot to a long haul route?

If so, how long?

[davidjohnson6]

Artie - I believe it is 3 years

[Bournemouth Air]

As i hear the deal has been done for a hangar at Bournemouth Airport does anyone know when the plans of building will start.

[esscee]

Why build another one, soon there will be a largish A330 - size hangar there available and a workforce eager for employment. Unless that is the deal that has been done with Cobham?

[yorky66]

Probably because the Cobham hangar has a future use as well.

Time will tell !

[vs69]

Yeah you cant move at VS at the moment without hearing about plans for a hangar in Bournemouth/Newquay/Shoreham/Lydd...

[NWSRG]

Any word on progress on the LGW 744 refurbs? When is the full fleet expected to be completed?

[Skipness One Echo]

Any word on progress on the LGW 744 refurbs? When is the full fleet expected to be completed?
V-Flyer Forums • View topic - LGW Refits FAQ (http://v-flyer.com/forum/index.php?f=4&t=274811&sid=d77614600bc9e008bc1101cc4eb77492&rb_v=viewtopic)

[rowly6339]

All over BBC news 24, to start 2013

[Dannyboy39]

For the customer "Virgin Europe" would be excellent; the product on the US domestic routes is superb; even more so compared to its competitors.

But as many will be picking up on - this is politics rather than economics. The LCC competition is immense (I dare say this wont be Virgins only SH route). Domestic air travel is also falling. Is this just a result of losing their rail franchise?

What we do know is that BA IMO have them by the short and curlies. An established product and network and possibility some desperation after their failed BMI bid.

[LTNman]

Virgin has run short haul before in the UK when it used to operate out of Luton.

[Aksai Oiler]

You mean the Viscount to Dublin? Does this exactly count? They also did the flights to Athens and the IT flights, but none came to much. I just looked at the proposed schedule on Airline Routes, 3 daily flights at what initially look not so good times of the day. I take it these will go from T3 at LHR ?

[LTNman]

They also used 727's but it was short haul.

[Nakata77]

They haven't placed an order yet for this 'A319' or was it an undisclosed order? This will show whether it is knee-jerk political move or a planned strategic entry after the bmi failure. How many seats will it have?

It spells the end of any further long haul development at MAN though as they will be trying to get feed. Why do the UK regions like Manchester, Birmingham, Belfast and Edinburgh, even Newcastle not attract direct long-haul (in terms of UK based scheduled airlines)

[chaps2011]

All it is doing is a direct replacement for the bmi flights MAN-LHR
which carried quite a few connecting pax for Virgins many flights ex London
and a large number of crews for Mancheter operations so I cannot see why it
should have any effect on Manchester expansion in the future

Ian

[Nakata77]

Seems like a very expensive way of serving your crew...

Shouldn't Virgin stick to what it does best - Long Haul? The short-haul market is saturated.

they should be considering BHX, MAN, NCL to New York (i.e an operational base at JFK) etc. Now that would be very interesting and would probably be far better for the economy surely?

I think Virgin have lost their mo-jo

[Omnipresent]

They haven't placed an order yet for this 'A319' or was it an undisclosed order?

The aircraft will be wet-leased.

I give Virgin credit for putting their money where their mouths are but a dual terminal operation is going to add a lot of expense for a route that is not going to give high yields.

[JSCL]

Next stop, Plymouth!

Save Plymouth City Airport
Virgin Atlantic has just announced domestic services from London Heathrow to Manchester, gap for us?

This is going to open up the floodgates to the spotter groups arguing Virgin should fly domestic to their airport, etc etc etc

[Nakata77]

I fail to understand what on earth this has to do with PLY?

The best bet would be for Eastern Airways to become Virgin Regional or something

[JSCL]

I fail to understand what on earth this has to do with PLY?

The best bet would be for Eastern Airways to become Virgin Regional or something

Nothing at all. Just noticed that rather humorous post from the Save Plymouth City Airport Facebook page, that's all.

Eastern has a developing relationship with BA and flying small AC as BMI has shown in/out of LHR is NOT going to be the best way to do it.

[Nakata77]

Yes totally, not thinking that 'Virgin Regional' would should or could!

[BIGBAD]

Just announced PLY-LAX, PLY-HKG and PLY-SYD fantastic !!!!!!

[Dannyboy39]

Vs3041 lhr0920 – 1020man 319 d
vs3043 lhr1610 – 1710man 319 d
vs3045 lhr2010 – 2110man 319 d

vs3046 man0650 – 0800lhr 319 d
vs3042 man1220 – 1330lhr 319 d
vs3044 man1750 – 1900lhr 319 d

[felixflyer]

Is this the start of Virgin Europe or is it just RB's answer to losing the rail contract?

I would love to see him take Ryanair on and offer a LC service that doesn't treat its pax and staff like cattle. I would have thought he would need to buy an existing carrier like Jet2 etc. to make it work though.

[bad bear]

Probably just me adding 2+2 and getting the wrong answer, but, might this be something to do with one of the conditions for bidding for the ABZ and EDI slots that the airline is not allowed to have any leased out slots and these were brought back to allow Virgin to bid? If so Virgin have the choice of running 3 new long haul routes, finding more airframes to increase frequency on existing routes or "slot sitting" on a short domestic route and making political capital from the situation.
bb

[TwinAisle]

PLY-LHR is a helluva long way for a 319....

Or did you mean PLH?

;)

[Mr A Tis]

Well LGW/MAN based 4 Virgin Sun A320s didn't last very long. The Brussels based Virgin Express was short lived too.

VS operate T2 at MAN, but as far as I am aware has no domestic facility, so there will probably be split Terminal ops at MAN (maybe LHR too).

MAN pax can go anywhere westbound via existing carriers & eastbound is well served with EY, QR, & EK. Don't see the attraction of going via LHR. BAs own shuttle has fallen away over the years as alternatives have come on tap.B757 & 767s reduced to A319s etc.

Can't see any way this will pay it's way.
More of an expensive political stunt / point & a spat from losing Manchester to London rail franchise.
If he wanted to make an impact oop north ( & offer crew shuttles) then routing a Heathrow to YVR or a LAX via MAN might remotely possibly make more sense. :-)

[Nakata77]

Well said bb, i think that is what's happening here together with bad blood with BA on previous code-sharing on this route when it was bmi.

Does anyone know how many passengers a year actually connected on to Virgin services at LHR from MAN when under the bmi code-share? If it is sizeable then it makes sense.

[Artie Fufkin]

Big Bear - exactly my take on things. Didn't know about the leased slot issue, but I assumed it was a move to try to convince the regulators that they are "serious" about short haul.

Get the 12 ex BMI slots, run them short haul for the minimum mandatory period, which will just give them some thinking time to order some new airframes, hire some staff, economy to recover and decide on which longhual routes to launch.

[AirLCY]

They will lose a fortune on MANLHR as the frequency is too low for business customers and most get the train anyway, plus connecting yields will be low. Its likely a PR stunt, within a year or two they'll used the slots at LHR for something else.

[fjencl]

BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Scotland and Heathrow (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-19329706)

[Aksai Oiler]

Just curious where the 319s are coming from, are they going to lease from Uncle Willie (Walsh) :\

[WHBM]

They will lose a fortune on MANLHR as the frequency is too low for business customers and most get the train anyway, plus connecting yields will be low.
Agree with most but not the "most get the train" bit. The train takes you to an inner North London location which, while it might be convenient for those offices in Central London that most businesses had a generation or two ago, is useless for the Thames Valley, Surrey, Berkshire, and much of West London that is Heathrow's business catchment area.

I'm looking at our top 20 national corporate customers, of whom about half have their head office around the South East. There is ONE whose HQ is inside the Circle Line, and is more convenient to Euston than Heathrow.

[pabely]

This is definely a grab LHR slots exercise, short term route which will burn alot of cash while they plan more long haul from LHR.

[Count von Altibar]

I'm pretty sure the slots up for grabs must be used for the route that's being vacated. Maybe there's a time limit on it, operate LHR-MAN for a few years then start converting them to long-haul!?

[Cyrano]

Who says they're actually going to operate this? The closing date for the applications to the trustee for the IAG slots (for ABZ and EDI) is... oh, there's a coincidence, the day after tomorrow (see here (http://www.competitionrx.com/IAG-BMI-Trustee.php)). As bad bear says, the Commitments (not the band, but the conditions linked to from the above page) stipulate that they can't be leasing out their own slots while applying for the IAG slots.

Plus, wouldn't it be helpful to VS's case to be able to say "we're really committed to making this UK domestic network work, Mr Trustee - look, we've even launched another route in anticipation. Please, give the slots to us, not those nasty Aer Lingus people, just because they have extensive short-haul experience, the right aircraft, and a presence in the relevant markets!"?

I think at this stage this is just window-dressing. If they get the ABZ and EDI slots, yes, they may operate MAN too. But if they don't get ABZ and EDI? I just don't see MAN taking off in isolation.

[davidjohnson6]

Apart from VS, who else has either said they will bid for the 3 year competition remediation slots to Aberdeen / Edinburgh / Nice / Moscow / Cairo / Riyadh, or is likely to be bidding for slots ?
Are VS bidding just for UK domestic, or are they also thought to be looking at the other destinations as well (e.g. Moscow) ?

[EI-A330-300]

Aer Lingus have said they would be intrested flying LHR-EDI and ABZ. IMO I hope they don't get them as I see no benefit to the airline of flying UK domestic.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Agree with most but not the "most get the train" bit. The train takes you to an inner North London location which, while it might be convenient for those offices in Central London that most businesses had a generation or two ago, is useless for the Thames Valley, Surrey, Berkshire, and much of West London that is Heathrow's business catchment area.

I'm looking at our top 20 national corporate customers, of whom about half have their head office around the South East. There is ONE whose HQ is inside the Circle Line, and is more convenient to Euston than Heathrow."

This is exactly the point: not all pax are headed for the middle of London, it's a huge conurbation. Those that are take the train (if they can afford it), else flights to LCY. Either way, there should be choice.

Much of the business catchment area is west of London because of the location of LHR, so there will be point-to-point traffic at LHR as well as transfer traffic. This is also another reason why the Thames estuary airport idea is a non-starter.


Quote: "Does anyone know how many passengers a year actually connected on to Virgin services at LHR from MAN when under the bmi code-share? If it is sizeable then it makes sense."

VS domestic probably has as much to do with replicating the feed that BD provided as it does with the acquisition of BA slots.


Quote: "Aer Lingus have said they would be intrested flying LHR-EDI and ABZ. IMO I hope they don't get them as I see no benefit to the airline of flying UK domestic."

Yes, they are probably the only other contenders for the BA slots, maybe apart from BD regional perhaps. The likes of BE, U2, etc., appear uninterested in this.

[Tom Sawyer]

Surprised this hasn't made it on here yet as was press released on the 9th I think:
Steve Ridgway Resigns as Virgin Atlantic CEO - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444100404577641401798222764.html)

Nominations for a replacment?

[Ancient Observer]

I would nominate anyone from a "fun/entertainment" background.

Virgin are suffering under the rule of beancounters........perhaps to fund Necker?

Get in someone from Disney to restore the fun and originality that Virgin used to have.

[Leg]

"Virgin are suffering under the rule of beancounters"

Is there any airline (indeed company) anywhere that isn't these days... :ugh:

[airsmiles]

Beancounters are a necessary evil as the days of endless bail outs and subsidies are long over. At the end of the day, some money has to be made to survive long-term. I don't know why so many people can't understand this.

[Bluebaron]

Won't be much on here PPrune heavily censor all Virgin threads.

[Iver]

Looks like the VS Airbus pilots will need to get their fill of sushi during the next two years before the Dreamliner arrives (so long as the 787-900 does not suffer too many delays). :p:}:}

Article below:

Virgin Atlantic plans to switch its Toyko flights from Narita to Haneda airport when it introduces a Boeing 787 Dreamliner on the route from London.

The move follows plans by the former mainly Japanese domestic airport to develop its international terminal and make more daylight take off and landing slots available to long-haul carriers from spring 2014.

Japan-UK air service talks earlier this year agreed that night-time operating restrictions at Haneda are also to be relaxed and that limited international movements can take place during daylight hours providing airlines retain a commercial presence at Narita.

British Airways, which runs a codeshare with Japan Airlines, currently operates five flights a week to Haneda from Heathrow.

Virgin, which struck a codeshare with All Nippon Airways in 2009, says the airport, close to the centre of Toyko, will offer improved passenger connections due to the 200 domestic frequencies available.

The airline’s chief executive Steve Ridgway said: “2014 is a key year in Virgin Atlantic's history. It marks our 25th anniversary of successfully operating flights to Japan and will see us deploying one of our first brand new Boeing 787 aircraft on the route.

“We have definitely seen the market recover post last year’s tragic earthquake with an additional 23% capacity and passenger numbers up by 77%. We look forward to enhancing that further as we move into Haneda airport.”

He added: “August was a record month for Virgin Atlantic’s Japanese operations and this far eastern route is very valuable to us.

“We operate daily flights with local crew and Japanese food and in-flight entertainment options.

“Our codeshare agreement with ANA will ensure that international passengers still have the choice to fly to Narita airport but, between the two carriers, we will be able to offer more choice with a Haneda based operation.”


Virgin makes Tokyo airport switch - www.travelweekly.co.uk (http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2012/09/18/41655/virgin+makes+tokyo+airport+switch.html)

[Iver]

Not surprising news given fuel costs - instead very logical considering the performance and capacity of newer aircraft with fewer "breakable" engines. However, this does contradict the interest in adding A380s to the line-up.... :confused:

The title of this thread reflects a great post by Pprune website's founder (current Virgin 744 FO I believe) a few years back about how much he enjoyed the 400 and wished to remain on the aircraft until retirement. I have enjoyed every comment made by Capt. Pprune about his flying experiences - especially on the Whale @ Virgin. Obviously fleets change with economics and competition. Sounds like a 787-900 or even a 777-300ER may be in his future - which I think is very positive for both him and the passengers. :ok::}:} Change is sometimes a good thing.

As a big Boeing fan myself and a Virgin customer on numerous occasions in the past, I am hoping for more Boeing orders.

See news story below:



Virgin closing on selection of 747-400 and A340-600 replacement
By: Max Kingsley-Jones (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/max%20kingsley-jones.html) London
11:49 22 Oct 2012


Virgin Atlantic (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Virgin%20Atlantic.html) expects to decide soon on a type to replace its Airbus A340-600s and Boeing (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Boeing.html) 747-400s as part of its drive to phase out four-engined aircraft.

The airline is introducing Airbus A330-300s and - from summer 2014 - Boeing 787-9s to replace some of its A340s (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/A340.html) and is examining potential replacements for the rest of its larger widebodies.

Virgin Atlantic chief executive Steve Ridgway told Flightglobal's Airline Business magazine in the November issue cover interview (http://www.flightglobal.com/interviews/steve-ridgway) that the airline is "rapidly moving out of four-engined aircraft - we have to do that because of where we seeing fuel costs going".

He says Virgin has had a request for proposals out with the manufacturers "for some time now" and is examining the options. "We will make a decision relatively soon about what we replace our remaining A340-600s and 747-400s with," he adds.

Ridgway envisages deliveries will take place in the 2015-2020 timescale, depending on the lease returns of its current fleet. Types under evaluation include the A350-900 (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Airbus%20A350-900.html) and -1000, and various Boeing alternatives including the 777-300ER (http://www.flightglobal.com/landingpage/Boeing%20777-300ER.html) and proposed new developments.

[dontdoit]

Good to see the ill-advised "4 engines 4 longhaul" campaign is working well for them then !

[millerscourt]

I am surprised Singapore Airlines want to throw any more money into this loss making investment which cost them £620million way back for an overall nil return.

Congratulations Dr Cheong the CEO of SIA then with your brilliant investment in Virgin and Air New Zealand ( both written down to zero ) when at the same time screwing us pilots in SIA over the Collective Agreement which took well over two years to be settled and then only with an ex General threatening us with a take it or get nothing.

[Artie Fufkin]

Just how bad is it at Virgin?

Branson tries and fails to sell up, Ridgeway quits, £80M loss, and now they admit they have got a fleet of aircraft unfit for the modern world.

[Dannyboy39]

Willie Walsh and British Airways take out yet another competitor. Credit where its due.

[Omnipresent]

This all mainly of Virgin's making, not BA.

Virgin had the chance to do a tie-up with bmi, both before and after Lufthansa bought it, but they let it fall into the hands of IAG. Virgin's fleet decisions, failure to join an alliance are all problems of its own making.

Where BA is hitting Virgin hard is with the transatlantic venture with AA (and the amount of money it's now investing in the brand) but this didn't happen announced and Virgin had plenty of time to anticipate and respond.

[dontdoit]

And now ... CAA announce their decision on the 3 way fight for London - Moscow rights. BA 21/week, easyJet 14/week, Virgin 0/week. Adjudication here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/213/20121024MoscowFinal1.pdf), final summary on page 33 if you can't be bothered reading it all !

[Dannyboy39]

I do wish these bilateral agreements would just end and there would be some sort of global openskies agreement. Probably will not happen in the foreseable. Want fair competition but 60% of the slots for GB carriers goes to one company.

[Dan Air 87]

I must admit I had expected VS to get the Moscow route but credit to Easyjet for making a compelling case for a service from LGW. Well done with the award and I hope that they make a go of the new route. What next for VS???

[crewmeal]

What next for VS???

Branson will do what Branson is good at. Throwing toys out of the pram and complaining to authorities about how unfair it all is.

[scrotometer]

:ok:I think EZY is a bit too big and has far too much money for Branson to try it on with.
He'd be better off buying into EZY that fighting them. He'd loose big time.

[jerboy]

I think EZY is a bit too big and has far too much money for Branson to try it on with.

He tries picking fights with BA almost every day of the week. Gets him preceisely... err... nowhere.

[Dan Air 87]

What is the latest on VS joining an alliance? I know this has been mentioned many many times but according to ATW they are close to deciding on one! I think it should be the other way round- an alliance is finally going to admit Virgin.

In the words of Marx (Groucho) I would never join a club that would have me as a member!

[jabird]

He'd be better off buying into EZY that fighting them. He'd loose big time.

Did he not have that chance back when they were still the ones in the pram, and was he not offered a similar investment in Ryanair?

Someone may be able to elaborate on the reasoning, don't think it was just down to not being able to stick Virgin on the tailfin. Maybe he though back then that his own European loco would do a lot better than it did?

[Bartek]

Aer Lingus has been notified that it has been ranked second in the race to secure former BMI take-off and landing slots at LHR, suggesting Virgin is now the firm favourite to take them up:

Blow to Aer Lingus plans for UK service - Irish, Business - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/blow-to-aer-lingus-plans-for-uk-service-3296278.html)

[CabinCrewe]

I had a feeling EI would have made more of these slots for longer. I suspect VS will not last on the routes for long (gradually reallocating the slots when allowed) and could potentially offer a slightly iffy service with leased in smaller aircraft (no short haul back ups and unable to invest in a proper new short haul product at launch) Pax may be disappointed with the type of product initially on offer, especially if they are expecting the Virgin America experience, which by all account will not be on offer.

[Fairdealfrank]

Anyone know when the results are announced? Is it just between EI and VS?

Think it's shame that BD regional appear not to be in a position to apply for these. Would have been good to see some sort of continued BD presence at LHR, even if it's now "BM", and as an outfit well experienced in domestic operations, a reasonable service could be expected.



Quote: "Virgin had the chance to do a tie-up with bmi, both before and after Lufthansa bought it, but they let it fall into the hands of IAG. Virgin's fleet decisions, failure to join an alliance are all problems of its own making."

Agreed, Omnipresent, some kind of link up should have been done years ago, long before LH became involved, especially as their route structures complemented each other so well.

Some kind of "IAG"-type arrangement may have worked where backroom functions were combined while the airlines kept their individual identities.

Alas it was not to be, prevented by personality clashes at the top perhaps?

[DomyDom]

Does anybody know if Virgin are planning on expanding their selection of routes from Manchester in the light of BA pulling their MAN-LGW flights. It's just that I live in the North-West and I'm looking to book a holiday to the Caribbean with a scheduled airline but fancy somewhere other than Barbados or Orlando so I am looking at booking Airfrance/KLM going through Paris or Schipol in the absence of more Virgin flights from Manchester. I suppose in the light of recent developments this is what I will have to do but I would rather use a British carrier but I don't want to haver to get the train to Euston, tube to Victoria, train to Gatwick palarva etc. Please can anyone employed by Virgin or another airline let me know whether expansion from MAN or at least connecting flights are being considered? Thanks, DomyDom

[Leg]

Looks like the flybe / Virgin collaboration is go :ok:

[VeroFlyer]

Was told by my airline management last week that the Virgin domestic contract has gone to Aurela Airlines...I somehow think this could be a load of tosh though.

P.S. I work for the airline that would be the obvious choice for the contract ;)

[vectisman]

I was just about to ask the Manchester-Gatwick route only to read on here several pieces of speculation! I am surprised nothing has been announced by anyone yet. Needs to be soon, as each day people will begin to make make alternative travel plans.
V.

[Blighty Pilot]

With Aurela past record with Monarch at Bhx I sincerely doubt it!

[V_2]

Virgin have already announced the LHR-MAN route will be operated using Airbus319s. BBC News - Virgin Atlantic to fly between Heathrow and Manchester (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19324962)

So you are looking for an airline thats operates A319, knowledge of UK airspace (particually Manchester and London Terminal areas) and good at quick turnarounds. I know where I'd put my money for an easy bet.

[DomyDom]

Thanks V_2. I take it that from your post that this hint is alittle more than speculation? It would also be good to see a greater VS presence at MAN though. Cheers, DomyDom

[davidjohnson6]

Assuming Virgin win the Edinburgh + Aberdeen bmi slots, who would be a likely operator ?

While these 2 routes for Virgin would be primarily for connecting passengers, I doubt the passengers would be solely connecting. Would there perhaps be a conflict of interest in Easyjet operating these 2 Heathrow routes for Virgin while also operating routes in their own name from EDI + ABZ to other London airports ?

[jdcg]

Why not get EI to do it, along with a comprehensive codeshare? EI's codeshare with BA is profoundly anti-competitive and should be switched.

[V_2]

I take it that from your post that this hint is alittle more than speculation?

No I'm afraid it is pure speculation, just who I personally think are most likely candidates.

Aer Lingus is a fair shout, although I think they only have 2 A319's so not sure if they'd be easily available. Although I suppose if its makes them money they'd make it happen. Also in EI's favour is the fact that VS LHR-MAN will be using T1 (not T3 as VS's other flights), so will be handled and checked-in by non-virgin staff. As EI are already in T1 that would make things easier to manage...Imagine we'll find out soon

[chaps2011]

I think I mentioned Aer Lingus just as the Virgin routes was announced and
nobody would beieve me and as they are getting 2 more A319 from Iberia soon

Chaps

[Skipness One Echo]

It's not anti-competitive to code share. If A.N.Other fancies a crack at flying against BA then they're free to try.
No one is likely to take on MAN-LGW, VS would be feeding a once a day wave to their beach fleet on long haul and that would be it. It's not enough in itself to make a business case given the weakening point to point market.

[Hangar6]

EI due to move to T2 ealry next year as T1 due for demolition, quite a lot of Terminal and Carrier/route moves coming in LHR not sure what impact this will have uf any on VS domestic