Renting Cessna over Xmas for flying abroad?

[AdamFrisch]

So I was toying with the idea of renting an aircraft over Xmas to fly home to Sweden in. I'd need it from around the 20th to the 1st of Jan. I tried my local club, but they won't allow it to be gone for that long plus it doesn't have Mode S. I mostly fly Cessna 150/152's and 172's.

What would the implications be insurance-wise? Is it at all feasible? Any ideas welcome.

[englishal]

I know of an AA5 which you could probably take. Don't think it has Mode S but it is a lovely aeroplane to fly....

[A and C]

A PA28 any good to you?

[dirkdj]

When VFR, it would take good planning and a lot of flexibility.

[AdamFrisch]

It would be VFR. But I have time on my side. 4 days, in fact.

I don't think I have the time to learn a new type like the Grumman. And it's been 15 years since I flew PA28's. As stubborn as it sounds, I am also very much a high wing man.

[BackPacker]

So you're going to be needing it for about 12 days. How many hours are you going to put on it?

Most clubs have minimum hours per day requirements because they did not acquire those aircraft to be sitting idle at a foreign ramp all day.

[englishal]

Just for your info the AA5 is a doddle to fly and you'd just need a check out by a friendly CRI to be signed off for it (who doesn't charge). Can't help with a Cessna though I am afraid but if you get stuck you may want to consider the AA5. It is owned by a maintenance organisation and used as their "air taxi" to ferry customers home so I don't anticipate a problem taking it away for a number of days over xmas and I shouldn't think they will sting you for minimum hours flown.

Rgds

[AdamFrisch]

Oh, I think I'll be putting roughly 20hrs on it, maybe a bit more. I'm willing to pay for a sensible daily mimina.

It'd be the UK, via Netherlands, Germany, Denmark up to Örebro (which is halfway between Gothenburg and Stockholm). Then Christmas. Then Örebro to Stockholm. And then back all the way.

Thanks englishal - I'll keep that in mind.

[stiknruda]

Or my newl 160hp engined PA28, fresh out of overhaul with a new ARC? Tidy workhorse.

Don't think you need a CRI to do a check-out, I'm pretty sure I could show you the ropes or have FI mates who'll do it for free if that would make you feel more comfortable.

Nice a/c - no mode S - why would you want one if travelling to Scandi-hooliga on a G reg?

Stik

[AdamFrisch]

Well, I seem to remember there's a Dutch requirement to have Mode S to fly above 1200ft AGL in controlled airspace. In reality, I've heard no one is really that bothered so it's not a deal breaker.

[BackPacker]

Well, I seem to remember there's a Dutch requirement to have Mode S to fly above 1200ft AGL in controlled airspace.

Not quite true. It's mandatory to have a mode-S transponder above 1200ft (MSL) period. And it's mandatory to have mode-S in any kind of controlled airspace, at any altitude. In other words: The only time you don't need it is when operating in class G below 1200'.

On the other hand if you're just transiting Holland on your way to Scandinavia it's perfectly feasible and safe to do so at 1000' MSL, remaining outside controlled airspace all the way, so indeed it should not be a deal breaker.

[A and C]

I guess he won't need my PA28 with the mode S then.

[AdamFrisch]

Could you get exemption and fly higher or in controlled airspace with A or C XPDR if you ask ATC?

Sidenote: didn't the airspace around Schiphol demand Mode S to be turned off as it cluttered the screens? If so, then I assume I could get transit there with a Mode C only?

[mrmum]

Yes, as I recall pretty soon after they made everybody fit use mode S, they had to make all the VFR aircraft under the TMA turn them off again :ugh::ugh::ugh:
So now it's a case of, it's mandatory to have mode S fitted, but it must not be operated, don't you just love 'em. :rolleyes:

[BackPacker]

Could you get exemption and fly higher or in controlled airspace with A or C XPDR if you ask ATC?

Officially, no. Unless you put a motivated request in writing, days in advance, yadayadayada. If you want to pursue this, start here: Homepage - OPS help desk LVNL (http://www.lvnl-ohd.nl/)

In practice, what I've heard is that most controllers prefer that you use mode A/C instead of nothing if you don't have mode S. But it also depends on the airspace and altitude you're talking about, how busy it is, and the mood of the controller on that day.

Without mode-S, my primary plan would be to stay in class G below 1200' all the way, with the transponder turned off. You can then talk to ATC and see if they're willing to allow you higher and to use the transponder. But honestly, transiting Holland at 1000' is not an issue at all. In fact, lots of places where 1000' MSL is actually more than 1000' AGL...

Yes, as I recall pretty soon after they made everybody fit use mode S, they had to make all the VFR aircraft under the TMA turn them off again

Yep. Holland set the standard on how NOT to implement mode-S.

For those who don't recall the situation: Mode-S became mandatory somewhere in the middle of winter, so everybody had transponders fitted over the winter period. The first glorious day of spring, everybody decided to go flying - with their new mode-S transponder activated. This generated so many returns on the radar scopes, with so many data blocks associated with them, that the controllers simply could not distinguish their own traffic from the rest of the clutter anymore. This was particularly bad in the area around the PAM VOR, which is a choke point at low level for GA, but also a major waypoint for approaching and transiting IFR traffic.

So a NOTAM was hastily put together which essentially told everyone to turn their newly acquired transponder OFF in certain areas. That situation remained for, what, six months? That was the time it took for ATC to update their software and implement much better filtering options.

And still if Dutch Mil is doing maintenance on their radar systems and have to fall back to their backup sets, we are again being told to turn our transponders off in certain areas. Shame, really.:ouch:

[Talkdownman]

I think I'll be putting roughly 20hrs on it, maybe a bit more. I'm willing to pay for a sensible daily mimina. It'd be the UK, via Netherlands, Germany, Denmark up to Örebro (which is halfway between Gothenburg and Stockholm). Then Christmas. Then Örebro to Stockholm
I know a nice little non-equity 182 which ain't doing much at the moment, about 39 hours to go before check, Wet or dry, burns about 53 lph, dependable old O-470. GPS, A/P good in heading mode, non-Mode S, no frills, does the job. 20 hours is more than it would be doing here...

Last time I came back from Skåvsta I routed Malmö - Groningen - Calais - Hampshire, which was all very GA friendly, low-level over NL (...not difficult!), piece of cake, a good day's flying.

[flybymike]

I hate to put the mockers on all this and I have no idea of your competence and confidence, but my personal assessment of my own likelihood to make this flight successfully, VFR, out of icing conditions, on pre arranged dates at this time of year in these latitudes, in the present horrendous weather patterns is precisely Zilch, zero, nil, nada...

[Alan_D]

C152 £45/hour in 20 hour blocks...
prices (http://www.bigredkite.myzen.co.uk/prices.html)

[AdamFrisch]

Thanks for all the offers. Seems like I might have found a C182 out of Blackbushe if we can make it all work in time.

Flybymike - it can certainly be risky, no doubt. But staying out of moisture and clouds is paramount in freezing conditions. The cold clear air in itself carries no higher risk of icing than warmer air. That's why it's important to have time so one can turn around or fly around any kind of trouble.

I don't take it lightly. I've asked myself if this is a good idea at all. But I don't want to just be a CAVOK, clear sky, summer flier only. I don't think it advances ones skills. I've convinced myself that it's important to be out in the elements sometimes and have to make decisions and judgements.

[Talkdownman]

Seems like I might have found a C182 out of Blackbushe
That's sounds like the one... ;)