Tasair Wheels Up

[Warm Ballast]

Poor old Tasair - poor old Chieftain - poor bloody pilot:

Bryan Green in plane drama Tasmania News - The Mercury - The Voice of Tasmania (http://www.themercury.com.au/article/2010/12/08/191851_tasmania-news.html)

[atminimums]

The corresponding article on news.com.au (below) tends to suggest pilot error rather than failure, with the pilot apparently 'admitting' to human error as the cause.

Tasmania MP Bryan Green in plane drama | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national/tasmania-mp-bryan-green-in-plane-drama/story-e6frfky9-1225967602624)

[eocvictim]

The pilot, Imran Ismawi, admitted that the crash-landing was caused by human error.

So does the Mercury.

[fanning]

maybe another Tas govt loan can be given.... The premier was there on the spot to approve it!

How many landing gear warning horns can you get for 1.8 mil ?:} one would assume the landing gear warning systems would be well entrenched into the training and maintenance systems of Tasair...

[Ando1Bar]

Seems a bit odd that the pilot would admit to the press that he made an error. Possibly opens up a big can of worms...

My thoughts post accident were - 1. ring the Chief Pilot or whoever your safety management system states and let the company handle comments to the media. 2. Ring the union before speaking to anyone, including CASA or the ATSB, for advice.

[fanning]

the media were at the airport (and on the plane), presumably watching the plane come into land with ... no wheels down?

Bit hard for the average commercial pilot to say "no comment" with half a dozen journalists running up to you as you hop out of the plane asking obvious questions :( - SMS media strategy probably works alot better when the punters arent there on the ground with cameras :ugh:

[Bankstown Boy]

Mmm... They always say that there are two types of pilots; those that have had a wheels up and those that are still trying.

However, as anybody who has flown a PA31 knows, the gear warning horn doesn't sound until about 12" MP. The throttle setting for this happens about 90% of the way through the flare ... So ...

Mostly a great aeroplane with at least this as a pretty dumb design error

[ozaggie]

Rich,fine,three greens, cowl flaps open. Its worked for years.

[Duck Pilot]

Good on the pilot for admitting his error,at the end of the day what can they do about it,just sack him. He wouldn't be the first that has been sacked from there.

What CASA and the ATSB need to do is look at how the pilots error in judgement come about,to assist the company/industry in preventing accidents like this in the future.

Pritty tough work flying a loaded Chieftain in crappy wx and having to do a circling approach when the wind is blowing 50 knots.

I wish the pilot all the best for the future,he has proven he isn't dishonest.

[The Green Goblin]

There is those that have and those that will. I've come pretty close myself. Similar weather, runway approach, put the wheels up to circle, short final, did the old rich fine grrrr oh ****, better circle and have another look :)

But for the grace of god go I!

[Jober.as.a.Sudge]

Mmm... They always say that there are two types of pilots; those that have had a wheels up and those that are still trying...

Oh FFS!!! :ugh: That perennially bad OWT always gets trotted out at times like these.

Here's a hint BTB: If that's your mind-set, then more than likely you'll contribute to the longevity of that particular bit of horse-hockey at some point in the future. Fill ya boots.

I've been at it 30-odd years now, with never a wheels-up. Change your thinking, change your reality.

[Ando1Bar]

Bit hard for the average commercial pilot to say "no comment" with half a dozen journalists running up to you as you hop out of the plane asking obvious questions http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/sowee.gif - SMS media strategy probably works alot better when the punters arent there on the ground with cameras


Probably would be a bit tricky, especially with your mind and body now running on adrenaline. Very easy to say this from my comfy chair, but I believe it's worth thinking through in your mind what you'd say/do after such an accident to avoid saying something that you or your company will regret later. "No comment" does sound a little dodgy, but perhaps something like "I need to speak to my Chief Pilot first before I speak to [the media/CASA/police etc etc]" would suffice. The pilots on QF32 didn't jump off their A380 and immediately start talking to the press - why should a GA pilot's mindset be any different?

[Bankstown Boy]

Oh just great, slobber sludge.

You really are a gem! Without knowledge of the poster involved except for the 'probationary' tag you get out the flame thrower and flame away.

I must be nearly ready to be important too, 'cause I've only been at it 27 odd years without a wheels-up-****-up; only 3 more to go and I'll be a legend too!:ugh:

Get over youself, humor tends to make the world a more bearable place

As to the Goblin - I relate, been there, have that particular t-shirt!

[Mr.Buzzy]

I don't get the bit about making the wheels go up again to circle. I must have used too much hair gel in the 80's....

Bbbbbbbbzzzzzzzz

[ozaggie]

Yeah me too. I must have 10 hours in them fancy contraptions, and never had a wheels up.

[Di_Vosh]

Was flying from DPO to MEL when we heard the pilot give his "Hazard report" to ML CEN. Felt sorry for him. It was a really ****ty day down here. Crap weather, circling approach, etc. PUF checks have saved me from the same fate in the past. :\

The pilots on QF32 didn't jump off their A380 and immediately start talking to the press - why should a GA pilot's mindset be any different?

Ando, I agree it's easy to comment from here. But this pilot had members of the press and a state MP in with him in the Chieftain that had the wheels-up.

His pax are going to be demanding answers almost immdediately (perhaps even during the evacuation). It takes a lot of training and experience to be able to deflect questions under those circumstances.

My thoughts.

DIVOSH!

[Hugh Jarse]

"Those that have, and those that will". The perpetual platitude dragged out by some...

What a load of horsefeathers!:}

How many thousand pilots do we have in Australia? So every single one of us is going to do a wheels-up at some stage of our career?

Spare us, please, from this simplistic analogy:ugh:!

I hope the bloke involved in this one is okay and can move on.

Humour has nothing to do with it.

Oh, and never answer any questions without having an advocate present.

[Stationair8]

Now GG please explain, why would you put the gear down and then pull the gear up to do a circling approach?

Poor old JVD, John Weymouths flagship from Executive Airlines days in Darwin.

[RatsoreA]

Rich,fine,three greens, cowl flaps open. Its worked for years.

Hahahaha... Yeah, that does seem to do the trick.

But seriously, top marks for owning your mistake.

[The Green Goblin]

There is a reason why we say it fellas, because it could happen to you next! It only takes one thing to draw your attention away and if your counter checks fail, here is the result.

How many us have missed the transition checklist due to being dicked around by ATC? How many missed a step, busted an altitude or did something silly while caught up by a threat?

I'm sure the guys who have done wheels up never thought they would do it either. Anyone watch ice pilots?

Oh and never trust the Pilot next to you, cross check it yourself :)

[Mr.Buzzy]

Hey I remember JVD at Execs!! Didn't know it was still around.

[The Green Goblin]

Now GG please explain, why would you put the gear down and then pull the gear up to do a circling approach?

Poor old JVD, John Weymouths flagship from Executive Airlines days in Darwin.

From memory it was traffic related after an approach and rather than hit the soup for another go, I climbed to the circling minima and circled for a reland.

That company I would for required it anyway, as you could remain off boost with the gear retracted, but would have to set a higher power setting with the gear and flaps extended to circle, wasting careful descent planning and cooling.

There are many ways to skin a cat.

[Duck Pilot]

To be quite honest,why are we still flying around in old piston engine aircraft single pilot on RPT services ? This question isn't directed purely at Tasair,but to the industry as a whole. There are a lot better alternatives available. It doesn't even happen now days in a lot of third world countries. Is Australia missing something here,especially with the value of the dollar at the moment ?

[Bankstown Boy]

Gotta agree with GG that there are many ways to skin a cat but if you're flying around with alternately a wing tip or the top of the tail nudging the soup and real close to the ground, I for one, don't want all of that drag dangling out. In addition if you have to go missed, a PA31 will climb a little better and faster with it up than in transit.

I was always taught " hope for the best - plan for the worst"

I have simple question.

If you lost a donk at 300' AGL (above the highest obstacle etc etc etc - for the inevitable flaming otherwise), in a 25 degree bank - would you rather the gear was up or down?

[The Green Goblin]

For the record I was flying a PA31 at the time.

And to answer your question BB, the wheels up of course :ok:

[Tmbstory]

I managed to get through my flying career, thankfully, without having the gear up proplem.

The mind set that I used was to not intercept final without the flaps set to approach/land position and the gear down and checked. If it was a long straight in approach then that action was taken upon glide slope interception.

I recall some pilots having problems in PA 23 Apache / Aztec aircraft in bright sunlight checking the greens when the day / night switch was in the wrong position.

Tmb

[Wally Mk2]

Okay what's done is done here. In aviation we always learn AFTER the event, like most things in life. No lives lost so all good (enough) at the end of the day.
All the training in the world won't stop this sort of event CFIT happens to the most experienced crews in the most sophisticated machines in the world! Humans err, it's more about when they err that has the 'impact' on us:-)

But to pose another thought here what about the aircraft's performance power wise with the gear still up just prior to landing? Like a lot of us here I've got an hr or 2 on the old PA31's & like all other high performance A/C certain power setting you get used to setting & seeing the results on the dials at any stage of flight. With the gear still up in a loaded Chieftan on approach I would have thought the pilot could/must have had the power back further than usual & the dials not in there normal position for a normal Ldg. Like a cars Temp gauge for Eg. who really knows what the numbers are we see the same dial/needle position day after day year after year it's when that gauge position changes that we think hang on somethings not right here, same goes for an A/C's gauges, well to me anyway.

PUF I reckon is the simplest & best Chk just before touchdown, still do it even today in jets, but you didn't hear me say that:-)


Wmk2

[Josh Cox]

It's a silly mistake, but we are all capable of doing exactly what he has done, even today.

Good for him in having the stones to own his mistake, with a mature attitude like that, he will go far, good luck bloke.

[Mach E Avelli]

And in the meantime, how about an airworthiness directive from CASA requiring gear warning horns to be very loud and set at a sensible power lever angle above idle? Some of these pissy little squeaking devices are not exactly attention-getters, and a bit useless if they wait to the flare to activate.
What, no horn? Well fit one - it will pay for itself the 1st time it wakes a pilot up in time to get the gear down.
Ditto with pressurization warnings - it should be a requirement to be loud enough to make your ears bleed. Lights alone are often useless in a bright sunny cockpit.

[Waghi Warrior]

Off the topic a bit.

I heard a funny story of an RAAF Mirage pilot landing at Melbourne airport many years ago and forgot do dangle the Dunlops. After the aircraft came to an abrupt stop on it's guts,the tower controller questioned the pilot as to why he didn't respond to their calls advising him that his gear was still up. The pilot's response was,"I couldn't hear the radio as a bloody warning horn was blaring in the cockpit".

Don't know if the story was indeed true or not,however it did sound possible.

This may have even been the reason why the RAAF aircraft now have the tone come over the radio when their gear is down and locked.

[desmotronic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlaJJXkS3uo&feature=related

[Capt Claret]

I'm in the there are those who've done it, and there are those who are going to camp.

I don't see this as meaning that all pilots are going to make a wheels-up landing, rather a recognition that even if one hasn't done it yet but there is no guarantee that one won't. Humans are fallible. :\

[Capt Fathom]

there are those who've done it, and there are those who are going to

I though this referred to the front door of a baron :E

[Tankengine]

I like the "I heard a buzzing but thought it was my hearing aid playing up":}

[Captain Nomad]

Guys, guys... You are just missing the last half of that oft repeated saying:

"The trick is to POSTPONE IT UNTIL YOU ARE 120 YEARS OLD" ;)

Comisserations to those who haven't... :sad:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I like the "I heard a buzzing but thought it was my hearing aid playing up"http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/badteeth.gif..... and then there was "I heard a warning horn, but thought it was the GPS telling me that I had arrived at my destination"!

Dr :8

PS: No, I haven't!

[beaver_rotate]

Have ya Claret?

[Capt Claret]

Nup.

And I do FUC checks every approach. :ok:

[Exaviator]

Some years ago I sold my Mooney aircraft to a somewhat rural aviator and undertook the task of giving him a type rating on it as part of the sale.

He had good handling skills but lacked discipline and attention to detail.

As he had never flown a retractable, or V.P. aircraft and refused to use a check list I drummed into his head the need to carry out a CUP (Cowl Flaps, Undercarriage & Pitch) passing 300ft on finals.

A few months later he flew into my local strip, and on wandering over to have a chat and a look at the aircraft I noticed a tin mug hanging from the instrument panel.

When I asked the reason for it, the reply was, "It's a reminder to do the Cup Check", :D

To this day he hasn't landed with the wheels up :ok:....................

[Jabiman]

ATSB says there will be NO enquiry:
No action against pilot who forgot landing gear / General News - Efficient Farming : Your one stop Agricultural Portal (http://www.efarming.com.au/News/general/09/12/2010/123276/no-action-against-pilot-who-forgot-landing-gear.html)

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

A luvly story Mr 'E',

I can see it now, hanging there....

When I first did my PA-24 endo, the guy teaching said to pull up the u/c telescopic handle EVERY time on Final, and it should reach just under the panel fascia - it did absolutely nothing other than to remind you to do 'something' on each and every final - then continue the PUF's etc

In later 210's we used always look and laugh to the pax "You got one? I got one - I hope you got one too".
Sounds 'trite' I know - but the amazing thing is - its worked for 45yrs or so...

Its just 'something' to do - and if you don't, then you soon think about what is it you've NOT done yet??

Yeah - I know 'trite'...:ok:

Cheers:ok:

[Dog One]

Retracting the undercarriage in a circling approach is a sure way to finish up sitting on the runway the undercarriage retracted. The workload for a SP circling approach in real conditions is high, so why increase the workload any further. An engine failure in the circle with the gear down is no worse than one on final approach.

Complacency can be the root of all evil, trying to land a heavy twin with the gear up as Wally says gives the pilot so many reminders such as non normal power settings, hard to slow to flap speeds etc.

I am reminded of an incident where a newly endorsed PA31 pilot developed the habit of not putting the gear down until turning final. Wise words were given to him about putting the gear down downwind prior to turning base.

Our ace didn't listen and eventually had the occasion to shut a rough running engine down. Arriving in the circuit with 9 pax, he carried out his normal circuit and turning final selected the gear down. At 300' to his horror, the gear was still extending, the result, a very dodgy go around with the gear still trying to extendand then retract. As murphy would have it, the remaining engine had a weak hydraulic pump and more time was needed to get the gear down.

Most turbine aircraft have a gear warning on setting more than take off flap, if the gear is up.

[thorn bird]

NO INQUIRY!!!...The poor bastard!!...That is cruel..at least an enquiry may have provided something for him to present at the show cause!!.
Now he's screwed, already "CONFESSED"....open and shut case!!...Inspector PLOD, sorry FOI...arrest that man!!....STRICT LIABILITY!!!>>>" Heinous CRIME!!".. ( A Vision)...Judge Deeds Court
" You have pleaded GUILTY to reckless endangement of the premier of Tasmania's life, in that you with aforthought and malice did on the eighth day of December 2010 place the life of the premier of Tasmania and attending media representatives in mortal danger.You maliciously and recklessly ommitted to select the undercarriage into the down position!! a crime that has occured all to frequently, especially by the prosecuting authority, who unfortunately are exempt from prosecution.
Never the Less,as an example to others, I Therefore feel duty bound to apply the maximum sentence as a warning to others contempaiting the same crime of forgetfullness..
It is therefore the sentence of this court that you serve a minimum of eight years of penal servitude and a fine of fifty thousand dollars....Take him down!! ( Thats the maximum..even pedafiles dont get that)

[kunu1]

:*Don't know what your taking Thornbird but you better lay off it a bit !!

[thorn bird]

Jeez Kunu,...That was quick..I totally lost the bet...how long it would take for threat to arrive!!...dont worry mate..you and the rest of your cohorts time may just be numbered..Inshalla!!

[Old Fella]

About the only way Wheels Up landings will be totally avoided is if the weld the gear down, permanently. Not only low time pilots do it, even a Mirage pilot with lots of experience did it at Avalon, or maybe Tullamarine, many years ago. Just did not lower the gear, no aircraft malfunction involved.

[Jabawocky]

Hey, I remember reading a John Deakin article about how he cleverly did a nil thrust approach into SFO I think and almost became the first b747 pilot to do a wheels up:eek:

[Josh Cox]

For those of you who think he's courageous for admitting fault, what else was he going to do? :ugh:

What most others do, blame everyone else, the gear didn't go down, there must be a hole in the fuel tank, the dipstick was in when I checked, I was hit by a gust on landing, I remember turning the master off, I always check and so on.

Admiting a mistake and/or knowing you've made a mistake and trying to hide it are two very different decisions processes.

[PLovett]

Not only a Mirage chappy but a couple of DCA pilots in a government HS125 at Laverton (I think) managed to pull it up real quick after landing.

Story goes that they were doing circuits when a Mirage wanted to depart which necessitated rigging catch netting at the end of the runway. Said HS125 does a go around to facilitate the departure and retracts the Dunlops. The rest is just embarrassment as the check list wasn't started from scratch but where the last one had been left off. :rolleyes: :=

For those too young to remember, DCA was the esteemed precursor of CASA but when they had some real toys to play with.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Plovett,

Didn't those guys pull the circuit breaker because the horn was making too much noise..??
They were doing 'quick succession' circuits, or something like that...and....they both forgot...

Seem to remember some 'controversy' like that..??

I'll bet neither have done that again...since..

Cheers:ok:

[uncle8]

was at Avalon. The crew exited the aircraft promptly but were seen to climb back inside "to collect their coats." The gear lever was found in the down position.

[kunu1]

Sorry TB,it will never happen to me given I don't drive plank's I fly helicopters with skids,Game over.
Hook,line and sinker ,well swolled !
Every one makes mistakes and I reckon this poor individual will never get caught again.:D :D

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Actually DCA and descendants have a long history of gear up landing.
As I recall, the NSW Region C-310 had just been rebuilt after a gear up problem, flew to an airshow ( was it Lismore??) with anybody who was anybody at Balls Head Rd, and landed gear up.
One of the Gulfstream 1000 ( Turbo Commander 695) was gutz'd twice, in WA from memory. The famous Merlin incident at Mangalore, the gear was down, but only partly after a very heavy landing.
Probably a few more I have missed, Dove at Camden??
Tootle pip!!

[yowieII]

...The Lear that had the surface area of the ventral fin somewhat reduced at Avalon...not quite a gear up but damn close

[glekichi]

I know the individual involved quite well and also know how easy it can be to get things the wrong way around when inexperienced on type.
I had the opposite problem to what most are describing here: I had to circle for a landing once very soon after departure and on late downwind went to put the gear down and found it was already down when in my mind it was supposed to be up. I guess inexperience combined with the fact that most of the circling I had done in training was on one engine meant that I was unable to pick up on the performance not being as it should have been.
Once one has a bit of time on type though, I think that after the checks get missed for whatever reason one not being able to pick up on the numbers not being where they should be shows a major lack of situational awareness.
Perhaps not all types have as obvious a performance differential with wheels up/down as a pa31, but another similar example in my mind is the Emirates incident in Melbourne.
It just boggles me that one would not pick up on the numbers and subsequent performance being that different to standard more quickly, especially by someone with significant experience on type.

[Stationair8]

How does Tasair go about recovering the aircraft from King Island?

Do they pull the wings off and put it in a container and take it to Moorabbin or do they fit new props and engines and fly it off the island?

[splinter11]

I think sometimes some people are destined for gear up landings. I know of a case of a pilot who did a wheels up landing. When questioned about whether there was a gear warning horn, the pilot replied "There was a horn but i disregarded it because i thought it was a faulty stall warning horn"!

The manufacturer cannot build "common sense" into the aircraft, so sometimes all the bells,whistles and horns in the world wont stop humans errors!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

The manufacturer cannot build "common sense" into the aircraft, so sometimes all the bells,whistles and horns in the world wont stop humans errors!

Amen to that brother.....

YouTube - Gear Up Landing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hMn7ZweF6s)

UTR

[bushy]

I remember a talk by a psychologist from Farnborough who had been involved in accident investigation. He described how a crew had made a wheels up landing, and the captain had remarked "there's something wrong with the brakes."

I never did a wheels up, but did scare myself a couple of times.
I found that it's smart to keep things simple. It is possible to miss things, and checklists are fine if you do them properly. Being human we sometimes do not.
A trigger that is separate from the normal checklists, that will save you on that busy day, when you miss something is

IF THERE IS A RUNWAY AHEAD, CHECK WHEELS.

You do it even if you are in a 172,or if you are the ace of the base in a super jet hummelflinger. Soon it becomes a habbit, and it's no load to carry.