Indifferent partner

[AOB9]

A query to all you married/partnered pilots out there.

I am happily married for 10 yrs to a wife that has always embraced my hobbies/interests. I don't mean that she actively involved herself, (neither of us would want that) but she has always been interested whenever I discussed my activities. That is until I started my PPL training a couple of months back. She has always been aware of my passion for flying and knew that some day I was going to "follow the dream" as they say. But, she just doesn't want to know. It's not the money, we've been through that. Tonight I was telling her about my lesson and how breathtaking the sight of the runway lights were on approach to landing ( my first time ever seeing them) but she was simply not interested.

This is a bit disappointing and I won't get hung up over it. I just wonder if she is listening to friends etc. who repeatedly speak of how "mad I am getting into one of those things, only one engine, too small blah,blah,blah."

Is she simply convinced that I've chosen a dangerous hobby?

Any insight would be a big help.

[mur007]

You could always do the unthinkable and ask her ...


Seriously though, I am not the most experienced aviator by any means but I have already accepted that the joys of flying are simply not understood by most people, especially after you tell them how much you just spent for the privilige of sitting in that cramped, cold and often damp space for an hour! If it's any consolation, most of us on here know exactly what you mean!

[ShyTorque]

You fly in a small, single engined aircraft? My God....... :ooh:

[Zakinflight]

Years ago, when I started gliding, members of the club were making polite conversation and asking about my domestic situation. "I'm recently separated" I told them. "oh, pre-divorced" came the reply. Since then I have come to understand that it is men, not ladies who find cars and aviation sexy. Even my girlfriend, who follows F1 and gets the off-side rule was less than impressed with our first flight. Far from the scene out of the film 'The Aviator' which I had imagined, our first flight ended with an abort 2/3 of the way up the runway and when we finally did get aloft, she filled an entire sick bag. (not sure if was my flying, the turbulance or just being over Northampton)

While your lady is not actively discouraging you, take this as a ringing endorsement, and save your runway light moments for this forum. Yes they are just beautiful

[robin]

When I was going through my PPL my ex-wife didn't want to know what I was doing and certainly did not sympathise with my flying achievements - NFT,GFT etc

My view is that she found flying is expensive, so I was spending money that she felt I should be spending on us (ie her priorities)

Secondly flying is a selfish activity. Although she may support you in other activities, women find flying a really difficult rival - they might be able to deal with an affair, but they don't know how to deal with an obsession like flying.

The indifference is a warning sign for you. You do need to talk it out now, otherwise you will find she will treat your flying as a cause for divorce - not incompatibilty but adultery!!

I've been divorced for 10 years as a result of misunderstanding women's attitudes. I recommend getting it sorted asap.

[kevmusic]

Mur007 has it spot on. I always thought flying was the stuff of romantic heroism; the epitome of man's timeless struggle against the last unconquered element. So when I started my PPL I sallied forth to the pub ready to hold discourse with admiring friends on my joining the brotherhood of bold aviators. To my shock and surprise, attention wandered, eyes glazed, gazes became less admiring, if not actually averted and, to put it bluntly, they were bored.

But I don't think it need be a case of divorce. ;)

[Pilot DAR]

A small group of people are totally enthralled by aviation, and the idea of leaving earth.

My experience has been that a vast majority have feelings about the hole thing, which range from ambivilence, to down right hostility. You can't change that. Perhaps your wife will grow you appreciate aviation, but beware that pressing it, could make it worse. If negative experiences are expected, that will be the percetion, and it's really easy to perceive aviation negatively, if that's what you are expecting.

Hopefully you can plan a trip which is so certain of success, that it will serve to demonstrate the fun, without the fear. Do not demonstrate steep turns to her!

Try for an aviation based social event to go to together. Particularly, if she can meet other wives, ideally happy flying wives. Ideal would be to team up with another pilot, who is extremely confident with his four place aircraft, take your wife on a two couple's trip. The other more experienced wife might help her to see the fun in the whole endevour. Take care though that nothing goes wrong. The negative can be worse that the postive very easily....

Prepare yourself that flying just may never be something she embraces. Let her know that she is entitled to her opinion, if you're entitled to yours, that may be the best you can hope for!

[fernytickles]

women find flying a really difficult rival

A right sweeping statement, that one :rolleyes:

Maybe just give it time? Or see if she can come up with you on one of you lessons? Must be perfect flying conditions tho' - no bumps or lumps. Or maybe give her a trial lesson as a present?

[Old Fella]

Most wives are interested in their partner's activities, they just don't always approve of them. Seems you have to find time to ask specifically what troubles your wife regarding you flying. You and she are the only ones who can sort it out. Good luck!!!

[cats_five]

Maybe your enthusiasm has simply reached the point of being boring for a non-aviator.

[Marchettiman]

Once you get her to accept your new hobby as a new way of getting places for an enjoyable day out or weekend away you may fins, as I did, the next complaint is how boring it can be to be a passenger! I have recently solved that one by buying her an iPad with the navpro app so she can follow where we are on the moving map display and when that gets boring she can read an electronic book on the thing. It might also solve this year's Christmas present dilemma.

[BackPacker]

So when I started my PPL I sallied forth to the pub ready to hold discourse with admiring friends on my joining the brotherhood of bold aviators.

"How do you know there's a pilot in the room?"
"He'll tell you!"

I've been divorced for 10 years as a result of misunderstanding women's attitudes.

I think this is called AIDS - Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome

But seriously... I think men are bad at multitasking and very good at focusing on one thing for a long time. To the point where a hobby may become an obsession. I have not only seen this in flying, but also in computers (when computers were considered a "hobby") and photography (particularly now that digital is of high-quality and dirt cheap).

Maybe it's not the flying itself that she doesn't understand, maybe it's the obsession with it.

[Whirlybird]

As a woman and a pilot, I think I'm better qualified to answer this than any of you so far....

As someone said earlier, why don't you ask her? Women LIKE to talk about their feelings, strange as it may seem to some of you. :) She is probably very articulate and will welcome the chance to tell you if she's simply indifferent to seeing boring old runway lights, actually resents the expense despite earlier discussion, thinks it's OK but wishes you wouldn't go on about it quite so much, or even...would quite like to have a go herself, but is desperately suppressing that as you can't possibly afford two pilots in the family (that does happen, trust me on this).

IMHO, speculation is a bit of a waste of time. You've been together ten years; can't you talk to each other?

[AOB9]

Thank you all for your replies. I am certain this is not a divorce issue so I can relax on that score. I think many of you are correct when you point out that aviation, like other pastimes, does not inspire most people. In fact almost everyone I have mentioned it to are bored within seconds. Thankfully I have a mate that also holds a PPL so we can bore each other.

I particularly like the quote;

"How do you know there's a pilot in the room?"
"He'll tell you!"

...........very true.

I will, however, have a go at confronting the issue with my other half over the weekend. I'll report back.

[IO540]

I reckon you should speak to her about it.

Pick a good moment, not when she is harrassed with something else.

Emphasise the possibility of trips abroad (whether you can do that from where you are in Ireland I don't know).

[stickandrudderman]

I think the biggest hurdle is the reliability issue.
Many people are not at all interested in aviation, but they might be interested in going somewhere reasonably far away in a short time, (France for lunch etc.) but after the third time of the flight being cancelled due to weather or tech failure they become much less enthusiastic.
My other half hasn't even set eyes on my a/c!

[Pace]

The answer is pretty obvious really! Prior to you actually taking up flying this was all a dream and as far as she was concerned would remain so.
Hence she could be supportive and interested over something which was never going to happen.

Now you are actually doing it she is petrified of recieving THE call.

"I am afraid madam your beloved Jimmy has crashed over the channell pretending to be a world war pilot and doing dog fights. The poor sod never stood a chance recovering from that dive in the 150".

"Why did I encourage him? Why did I take such an interest? Its all my fault now my beloved Jimmy has gone and I am all alone to rear the 10 kids" !!!

Remember too the picture you have of yourself in Ray Bans and a leather jacket at the flying club looking up at the clouds in a knowing way isnt the picture she has of you!

She remembers what a complete Wonker you really are. You are the guy who cannot even follow her shopping list never mind a check list.

The guy who cannot do the simplest of tasks without messing up?

You are the Wonker who last time you went shopping on your own and took the baby you brought the shopping back and left the baby in the store.
She had to take all the frantic calls from local radio, the police and the supermarket.

She also knows how you always get her to paint the ceilings as you claim you are scared of heights and climbing ladders?

Should you ever achieve that licence by bribing various people with vast sums of money and threats she also realises that one day she may have to risk her own life by going with you.

You have some options you either try and persuade her that its all really safe or saturate her to confront her fears.

Leave gruesome accident reports dotted around the house? Buy movies like death at 30,000 feet etc. She will then realise that its all inevitable.
Lastly as you go out of the door mumble " a man has to do what a man has to do and add I may not return for some time.

Pace:E

[IO540]

With a less than aviation mad woman (which is 99% of them) you have to pick your day for a trip carefully. My wonderful girlfriend of 7.4 years is very happy to fly with me, and we have been to lots of places, as far as Crete or S. Spain, but I have to pick the wx carefully. Personally I don't do heavy IMC enroute anyway (icing conditions are never predictable, who wants to be in a tumble dryer, etc) but with her I have to be more careful still.

Loads of male pilots have given up flying permanently due to pressure from their women, and it always seems so pointless, because a relationship should be one of mutual support for each other's "projects".

Short trips (1-day or overnight) offer the best value because you can visit some nice city, and high pressure weather is often present for a few days at a time which is just right.

At the other end of the scale, if going away for say 2 weeks, it is no use trying to predict the return weather so you just go, keeing the dates a bit flexible and sometimes she will take a commercial flight back. It's no big deal, and on the few occassions we did that, I nearly always had a perfect flight back. Only once I had to divert due to wx (to Lydd, ILS, overnight in a hotel).

When we do a long trip, we set aside 2-3 days for getting out of the UK, and about 75% of the time we manage to get away on the first day (one always flies on the first technically suitable day, even if the following day "looks perfect"). On another 20% of the time we get away on day 2 or day 3. Only once did we have to cancel the flying holiday and take an airline somewhere, but we did a flying holiday later in the year anyway.

Avoid stops in places where you are not stopping for a reason i.e. pick any fuel stops to be overnight stay places anyway, so if you have to stay an extra night it doesn't matter.

With an IR it is easier but not as much easier as most PPLs would think - the weather doesn't care for what papers you've got. What an IR does, at least 90% of the time, is allow you to access airspace which the bl00dy ATC units in question should have let you into under VFR if only they complied with ICAO airspace classification and were not so ana11y retarded. On most long IFR trips (and I always fly IFR when going abroad, nowadays) I log very little actual instrument time; often 15 mins in 15hrs of flying.

[Redbird72]

It's always worth ensuring that you are talking in plain English about your flying.

When I first started, my flying lesson stories quickly became filled with aviation acronyms and jargon. The one that stumped my boyfriend quite early was referring to aircraft by the last two letters of the regn.

"who the F***'s Mike Whiskey? Is he a new instructor?" :E

That said, being supportive of your other (potentially equally "boring") hobbies, but not this one does suggest something is bothering her. Why not have a chat?

My other half's top three concerns are along the lines of (1) she's gonna kill herself (2) it's incredibly expensive and (3) has her PPL led to anything remotely useful yet? Nope. :sad:

[Katamarino]

I must be very lucky in having had girlfriends who have absolutely loved flying, and pester me to plan the next flying holiday :ok: My present girlfriend has a good 150+ hours right seat time, and makes a good copilot :)

[Lister Noble]

Pace probably has it spot on.
Your wife is terrified that something will happen to you,when I was car racing my wife never said much,but when I stopped she said how worried she used to be.
When ever I go flying she asks me to be careful,so I always tell her that apart from her,I'm the most important person and I don't want to peg out just yet.
Let her know you won't take risks,show off,chance the weather etc.
You do need to sort it out because she is not too happy at the moment.
Good luck to you both.
Lister:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Surely this management of expectations is there in pretty much any activity in a relationship.

I have two passions in my life (three if you include my wife), aviation and martial arts.

My wife is fascinated by aviation, both the technical aspects (she's an engineer) and quite likes going on trips so long as:-

(a) turbulence is minimal
(b) the aeroplane has doors, a windshield, and a cabin heater
(c) she has her camera.

I can handle that, and have learned that telling anecdotes involving engine failures from failed loops in vintage aeroplanes in her hearing is unwise. I also just smiled and signed the life insurance policy that she insisted upon.


In martial arts, she also shares my fascination - but given a choice of a 2 hour hard training session, or a 2 hour technical lecture on MA history, she'll take the latter. She also is much happier on her feet with a sword in her hand, than grappling on the floor in a dojo. So we do sword based stuff together, and I go off and teach Jiu Jitsu on my own. Not a problem either.


All about understanding the person you share your life with and their personal motivations really.

G

[Twinnshock]

Is this a problem?
I have held a PPL since 1980 which is prior to meeting my wife. We have been married for 25 years and in all this time she has never flown with me or expressed a whish to do so, if fact the very oposite.
But whilst indifferent to me when I return home with tales of dairing do and greased 3 pointer landings in the cub, I find she oftain talks to her friends regarding my latest exploit and I think she is thankfull that I do not follow the more usual hobbies of her friends husbands and partners as this gives her a topic of conversation!


Stuart

[Charles E Taylor]

If your wife is interested in travel?



You might try this to interest her in Flying.

We're off - Cannes, France Travel Blog (http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entries/eskimo/1/1284224056/tpod.html)




Good Luck




Charlie

[Gertrude the Wombat]

learned that telling anecdotes involving engine failures from failed loops in vintage aeroplanes in her hearing is unwise
I've decided that on balance telling the truth about "interesting" occurrences works out better. It probably helps that I've got across the general safety culture, and she is aware that for most eventualities there are several levels of backup plan available, and that most people walk away from a forced landing.

Now that she's actually seen a real life in flight emergency for herself (we sorted the problem and completed the trip as planned, but it was real while it lasted) I can't actually tell whether she's more worried or less worried than she used to be ...

[MichaelJP59]

My problem is the opposite - my other half really loves flying, in fact she doesn't really like me going without her. It's also costing us a lot more because she's doing her PPL and I'm sure when she completes it I'll be relegated to the RHS half the time:(

Oh, and she has very expensive tastes and doesn't see why the interior of an aircraft shouldn't be at least as luxurious as the equivalent price car!

Ah well, could be worse:)

[Pace]

Lister Noble

when I was car racing my wife never said much,but when I stopped she said how worried she used to be.

We must come from the same mould! with me Formula Ford, Formula 3 and Clubmans (Mallock) Lost sponsor, pregnant girlfriend/ then wife meant flying as and when £££ :)

Pace

[AOB9]

MichaelJP59.........""Oh, and she has very expensive tastes and doesn't see why the interior of an aircraft shouldn't be at least as luxurious as the equivalent price car!"

Now that's a problem that will need some discussion.:uhoh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

MichaelJP59.........""Oh, and she has very expensive tastes and doesn't see why the interior of an aircraft shouldn't be at least as luxurious as the equivalent price car!"

Now that's a problem that will need some discussion.:uhoh:

Particularly since it's almost certainly true.

G

[Floppy Link]

It's obvious...
she's pissed off you chose fixed wing rather than helicopters!

[dublinpilot]

Is their really anything wrong with her not being interested in something you do?

I don't mean to be smart, but why should she be interested in aviation simply because you are?

If she comes home and wants to tell you about the great new shoes that she boughts and wants to tell you all about them do you show great interest? Maybe you'll be polite and show some interest for a few minutes. How about when she's still talking about them an hour later and about the ones that she was going to buy instead of these ones?

Then how about when this becomes a weekly event? How long before you start to try and polietly show her that you really aren't interested and that she should talk to her 'girl friends' about this sort of stuff?

You can subsitute shoes for pretty much anything else that girls found more exciting than men, or that another man finds more exciting than you.

I don't think that it's really any harm that she doesn't find aviation interesting.

Someone else described here what they do with their wife that has no interest in flying, and I thought it a lovely way to handle the situation. Whenever they go flying, they make sure to arrive home in exceptionally good humour, bringing a bunch of flowers for her (or chocolates whatever) and then makes her dinner, and all in all makes her feel special for the rest of the day. It didn't take long before he wife was suggesting that he should go flying this weekend, and she could easily see the benefits to her ;) What a good way of handling things ;)

dp

[Miroku]

make sure to arrive home in exceptionally good humour, bringing a bunch of flowers


I did that and they were sniffed at as they were 'supermarket flowers'!

How can I afford to go to a proper florist when I have to pay for my flying?

[Whirlygig]

Most women are not interested in aviation in the same way, and for the same reasons, as I am not interested in golf. Just not interested.

Taking me out on a golf course for a day, with some golfing women, would not increase my interest one little bit. Going to a golf dinner would be my idea of a night of hell (almost!).

Would I resent the time and money spent by my other half on golf? Not one bit. But do I want to hear about the birdie at the 16th? No.

As most posters are saying, some people just ain't interested. It's boring and dull.

Cheers

Whirls

[IO540]

Cooking a dinner is, I am reliably advised, a 99% sure way of getting the "desired result" ;) ;)

But seriously, a relationship does involve complementary activities and interests - if both are intelligent people.

Occassionally you will both have similar interests (I mean no dissimilar interests) but that is very rare.

There are relationships, mostly old traditional sorts, where one has little to do in their life and relies on the other one for everything. A woman who has no interests of her own, who saw marriage as the solution to everything, and is now stuck at home with kids (which let's face it is a pretty common scenario) is likely to resent the man flying, or indeed having any fun at all. I don't know of a solution to that - even the application of loads of £££ won't solve that one.

Children are a major major major challenge...

Finally it has to be said that IF you have no kids, and little in the way of common interests, then finding somebody else has to be considered. This is not the 1950s or even the 1980s (when digging out a new partner was a full-time job, so most people - myself included - shacked up with the first person who was interested). It's a lot easier today.

[Molesworth 1]

My girlfriend was delighted to be flown to Ostend but found the actual flying boring.

Try sitting in the right hand seat playing no piloting role whatsoever and I think you'll see her point!

[AOB9]

In response to IO540, I'm delighted to say that I'm not part of a traditional "old style" marriage, nor is my wife "stuck at home with kids"............well actually she is sometimes. But she does have her own interests and since I stopped doing shift work a couple of years ago we have become fairly good at sharing duties. I reckon the big problem here is one of safety, a fear of something unpleasant happening to me and her having to pick up the pieces, literally. As stated in a previous post I will confront the issue over the weekend ( when life is calmer) and report back.

[24Carrot]

Are you sure there is an 'issue' to 'confront'?
The shoes analogy sounded spot-on to me.

My wife was pretty supportive, (she actually persuaded me to keep on going when I had decided I would never learn to flare), but she has never been especially interested in the details.

If there is a safety concern, buy her a trial lesson. Once I got the PPL, I did that before I took my wife up. I wanted her to see what a 'proper pilot' did before she climbed in with me and assumed I was doing it all wrong. (And all right, yes, I did think I might let somebody else find out whether she would get air-sick:eek:)

[BackPacker]

If there is a safety concern, buy her a trial lesson.

Actually, don't buy her a trial lesson. Buy her a three-pack of "pilots wife" lessons or whatever you want to call it. For a change, the instructor sits in the LHS, your wife in the RHS and the instructor teacher her what to do when you become incapacitated. Things like tuning 121.5, following vectors and making a safe landing in not-too-challenging conditions.

Throw in a few other easy-to-handle emergencies and if this gives her an idea, at the very least, that she's competent to do something in case of an actual emergency, she'll be a lot happier.

[BeechNut]

Is this a problem?
I have held a PPL since 1980 which is prior to meeting my wife. We have been married for 25 years and in all this time she has never flown with me or expressed a whish to do so, if fact the very oposite.
But whilst indifferent to me when I return home with tales of dairing do and greased 3 pointer landings in the cub, I find she oftain talks to her friends regarding my latest exploit and I think she is thankfull that I do not follow the more usual hobbies of her friends husbands and partners as this gives her a topic of conversation!


Stuart

She's getting even with you. When I started flying (same year as you incidentally), I used to love to brag about it. Then I got sick, at dinner parties, of talking about it: "yes, it's safe. My plane flies at 110 knots. Umm, let's see, about 200 km/h. No, I don't wear a parachute. How far? Let's see about 5 and a half hours endurance, times 200, about 1000 km. No, I don't talk to a control tower all the time, my home base is uncontrolled. Yes, that exists, airports without control towers. Yes, it is safe. No I really don't worry about not having a parachute..." and on and on. Same speech, different party.

So I learned to shut up about it, except that my wife (who actively dislikes my flying but she's a fine gal otherwise...), now says nearly first thing at a party, that I fly so once again: "yes, it's safe. My plane flies at 110 knots. Umm, let's see, about 200 km/h. No, I don't wear a parachute. How far? Let's see about 5 and a half hours endurance, times 200, about 1000 km. No, I don't talk to a control tower all the time, my home base is uncontrolled. Yes, that exists, airports without control towers. Yes, it is safe. No I really don't worry about not having a parachute...".

I'm sure it's to get even for spending our hard earned cash on a spam can :}

[akaSylvia]

Thank goodness Whirlybird (http://www.pprune.org/members/24436-whirlybird) posted because my response was going to be far less polite.

[Blues&twos]

Just asked my wife the same question, as she's not in the slightest bit interested in my adventures in The Pitts. She says it's because she can't relate to it. Talk about the people, fine. Talk about technical stuff....eyes glaze over etc.

And there's a bit of the "burning crater in the ground, with some smouldering wings nearby" too, not helped by my unhealthy interest in aviation accidents.

[AOB9]

Issue confronted......calmly over dinner.

My hunch was correct.Her problem is 10% cost, 90% safety. The cost issue is not really a problem, I don't need to dwell on it here. The real issue is one of me falling uncontrollably from the sky one day. To be honest my wife has a "mild" fear of flying i.e she will get into a plane if she has to but would rather not. BTW, when I say plane I mean B737 A320 etc, so a Cessna 172 is definitely a non-runner.

On the plus side she actually made a point of learning exactly what is involved in gaining a PPL i.e the training program, instructor qualifications, ground school etc and what would be involved if I wanted to go further with my training, i.e CPL. These are questions that she was intentionally avoiding asking because she was hoping the whole thing would go away.

I have gone to lengths to explain to her how important my own life is to me and how I have no intention of putting myself in danger. In fact there was a eureka moment when she remembered how sticky I am when it comes to safety. As a landscape gardener I use potentially dangerous equipment on a daily basis and have spent quite a lot of money insuring I am properly qualified/trained in all of my machinery. It's not as if she didn't already know this but fortunately this has helped her to realize that she's not dealing with a flying maniac but a normal balanced person:E who happens to love flying.

So we have agreed that I will not bore her with the technical details and that the option is open for her to join me on a lesson some day. :) So long as I, for my part, be careful up there.

[flyinkiwi]

It's great that you were able to talk about her fears with her and show her that you have some understanding of them. :D

As for channeling your enthusiasm for talking about flying away from your wife, I recommend forums like this, starting a blog or chatting with your instructor and other students/pilots at your school when you are not flying. There could be some contacts you make through this forum who might live not too far away and you could organize a fly in or a monthly meeting at the pub so you can get all that talk out of your system.

When non-fliers ask me if flying is safe, I inform them of the probability that you are far more likely to die driving to and from the airport than through any flying you might undertake from it. The media has a lot to answer for in portraying aviation as being far more unsafe than it actually is.

[dublinpilot]

When non-fliers ask me if flying is safe, I inform them of the probability that you are far more likely to die driving to and from the airport than through any flying you might undertake from it.

But that is only true of commerica air travel. The risks involved in light GA are significantly higher than that.

[Legalapproach]

Lost sponsor, pregnant girlfriend/ then wife meant flying as and when £££

PACE, if you get your girlfriend and then your wife pregnant you can expect no sympathy:E

[IO540]

Some have found data suggesting it is comparable to a motorcycle.

However, motorcycle accidents are mostly caused by car drivers, whereas some 99.x% of general aviation accidents involve no other vehicle.

On top of that, the # of half blind car drivers has vastly increased since the 1970s when I was on 2 wheels. MC is now a decidedly dodgy proposition, but again mostly due to car drivers.

The risk in flying is almost entirely down to the pilot and, in fixed wing at least, very few serious accidents result from crap maintenance (which is just as well since crap maintenance is endemic ;) ).

If flying was as dangerous as MC (as the risk per mile data superficially suggests) I would never do it. I do it because most of the risk is down to me.

[Lister Noble]

A lot of bike deaths are due to massive power and diminished reactions,or kids with no experience,or born again bikers with no experience.
Don't blame cars and car drivers for crap m/c riding!:ugh:

[LH2]

finding somebody else has to be considered.

I like people who get their priorities straight :}

On a slight change of subject though:
motorcycle accidents are mostly caused by car drivers

Maybe in your corner of the woods, but when I was a young lad I spent some time in the ambulance service and I can assure you the majority of the ones I used to pick up had managed to crash all by themselves.

Pace,
Now you are actually doing it she is petrified of recieving THE call.

Well, mine got it a few years ago and was not amused, so nowadays my friend from the fire brigade serves as my "next of kin" contact. Mind you, she still reckons that flying is still much safer than what I do for a living.

[ I hadn't crashed, btw. Spanish ATC lost track of me, I was only on Barcelona Approach, you see :ugh: ]

She tried it a couple of times. The second and last of those I thought it would be a good idea to take her to Courchevel for touch and goes and again, she was not amused. At all. :{

Luckily in France there are plenty of female pilots, so I don't mind she's not joining :E

[rans6andrew]

when I got my licence I was not ready to take passengers, I wanted to get a bit of experience while I only had myself to worry about. I did, however, take to flying off with my tent and camping away, the first time was on the day my newly gained licence came through the letterbox.

My partner was not at all keen to fly (with me or anyone else, even commercial) but did concede that she worried about me while I was away. After 3 or 4 years she began to realise that I would go off flying and come back without injury or damage and often visited some interesting places. She eventually came and had a short ride in the aircraft, saw the relaxed expression on my face and enjoyed the flight. She has been all over with me ever since. I heard her explain it to her parents "it is better to be with him than sitting at home worrying about him".

For my part, I try to make the flight interesting. I adjust the route to pass over interesting features on the ground, white horses, nice houses, crop circles, steam railway lines, big rivers, castles, follies, harbours etc. I also fly low enough that we get a good view and have been known to circle round while she points her camera. I usually try to fly to places where something is happening, if I am just flying around for the sake of flying I go on my own. We generally try to get away from the destination airfield and explore rather than stop at the airfield cafe, keep it interesting.

This brings another point to mind. We have two aircraft, an old Rans S6, high wing, 65 mph, good view down and around, good for taking photos from and a Zenair 601ul, low wing, 90mph, bubble canopy, poor view down, canopy too close to your face for SLR camera with long lens. Guess which we prefer to fly about in. Yup, the Rans is better for enjoying the view and the trip.

Don't rush your partner into it, let them get used to the idea at their own pace and then do more than just fly.

Rans6..

[Gertrude the Wombat]

my unhealthy interest in aviation accidents
My wife understands that such an interest is in fact exactly the opposite of unhealthy, and that it's precisely the safe pilots who put so much effort into reading and understand the reports with a view to not killing themselves the same way.

[IanPZ]

Just wanted to put my tuppance worth in.

First, thank god for people who advise communication. I haven't even started flying yet (starting in the next couple of weeks, now I've had a trial), but I know none of you would expect ATC to guess what you were going to do, so you communicate. Same for your partner. Well done for actually asking, rather than guessing!

Next, I have a very similar situation. My partner is fine with me learning to fly, a bit worried about the costs, but understandably worried about my safety. Stats make no difference, especially since I go to work each day on a motorbike :-)

Lastly, on the subject of bike safety, I am led to believe that the overall number of accidents may have gone up, but the number of fatalities in comparison to the number of riders on the road has gone down vastly. Also, that the majority of those fatalities are with no other car involved, or bike crossing the centre line into oncoming traffic.

As a good friend, who is a bike copper said to me--- bad luck can strike any time, but if riding a bike was all about luck, how come I have ridden every day for 26 years and never had an accident.....I am taking that principle into learning to fly. Good training, careful planning and attention to detail beat the odds every time!

Good luck, and please feel free to rave about flying to me any time. I couldn't stop, and have only been up once!

(now, to sell the house and fund the next few lessons !!!!)

[gpn01]

You think flying with just a single engine is dangerous? Pah! Try flying without ANY engine!

My Wife accepts that there are dangers inherent with what I do and the tradeoff is the enjoyment I derive from it. She used to ride horses (statistically a FAR more dangerous activity) so understands risk/reward.

[AOB9]

IanPZ, yes indeed, it's a very expensive undertaking. In my case approx. E3/min including about 10 minutes on each occasion waiting for liners to land/take off. There was a time when I would have been glad to pay this for such a good vantage point. Having said that, every time I step out of the plane after my lesson I feel completely thrilled. You need to find a balance between what you can afford and not leaving too long between sessions. I have covered some of the cost by not changing my car ( something I generally do every 3 yrs). I have many hobbies but this is the only one that gives me an overwhelming sense of being "alive".

[Cusco]

I learnt to fly fairly late in life: my wife actually bought me a trial lesson: I loved it so much I signed up immediately and 6 months later I had my PPL.

That was 17 years ago.

Prior to starting training my wife was full of good ideas including the time -honoured lunch in Le Touquet.

Then something changed as soon as I got my licence: she declined all offers to fly with me and has never once asked me if I've had a good flight or agreed to accompany me to a pilot curry/piss up.

The only time she's remotely interested is if I've been flying with one of my kids or grandson, but only to ask them if they've had a good time.

It's sad to think of the past 17 years of missed opportunities: You chaps with 'flying partners' don't know how lucky you are......

Cusco

[IO540]

Have you asked her why?

I started to learn to fly after I got divorced. Had I started when I was still with the ex, she would have definitely been resentful of me having fun (I had had loads of unpleasant examples of that already from her, but being much younger I accepted that as being normal female behaviour, whereas today in the same situation I would have legged it instantly - though a marriage and kids will make that much harder) and while I can only guess how it might have been resolved, it would have probably involved spending an equal amount of money on something for her to do.

However, we had small children then and if we were going to do something together (but without the kids) the kids would have had to be with a nanny, but the ex bitterly resented the prospect of a "stranger" messing with "her" kids. Result: a deadlock where neither parent is able to have any fun :ugh:

I think many relationships have an underlying dynamic which tries to prevent either person doing anything. So the man escapes down the pub; the pub across the road from here has its bar propped up by the same ~ 5 men every night, and most of them are married with kids.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think many relationships have an underlying dynamic which tries to prevent either person doing anything. So the man escapes down the pub; the pub across the road from here has its bar propped up by the same ~ 5 men every night, and most of them are married with kids.

I've also wondered often about the home "lives" of the many men often seen by the side of rivers and canals all evening drowning maggots.

G

[IO540]

Yes, I am sorry to say that disfunctional relationships are the norm rather than the exception.

I am divorced, and got fleeced as usual, but in most cases the men have only got themselves to blame for what they got into. And nowadays there is no reason for settling with somebody who basically resents the stuff which you find interesting.

[FleetFlyer]

Well its not all doom and gloom! I've been happily living in sin since leaving uni with my GF and she always knew I was into flying as I used my gliding tales to chat her up in the first place. Once I got my power ticket she started coming with me and although she was nervous at first she now loves looking at the nice houses and the trips down to the west country to see our repective sets of out-laws. When I've been out of work she has been kind enough to pay for fuel for my group plane to keep me current.


I'm not sure if it has any bearing but we're in our mid-thirties and have not opted for marriage or children as yet. She encourages me to pursue my dreams and I encourage her.

Doubtless when we get married and have kids we'll become as self destructive as everyone else.

Perhaps the rest of you lot should try living in sin and not procreating immediately in order to figure out if you're compatible before it becomes contractual. I may edit out this last paragraph as it sounds a little harsh.

[IO540]

Perhaps the rest of you lot should try living in sin and not procreating immediately in order to figure out if you're compatible before it becomes contractual.

I agree. Works great in my situation.

In N Europe, where the concept of the extended family is not strong, marriage is principally a financial security thing anyway, with the benefit going to the person who brought in the fewer assets :)

[172driver]

I think two things get conflated here: interest in aviation and interest in flying.

For us on this forum the two are largely one and the same - not so for our partners. My wife doesn't have the slightest interest in aviation, IOW she doesn't care one jota how an airplane works, what the intricacies of flight planning are, etc, etc.

However, she loves to go flying! By which she means 'going somewhere', a local bimble isn't of much interest. Here, there is a happy confluence of interests, as I pretty much feel the same and only 'bimble' to stay current if no bigger trip is happening. Guess I'm lucky, as we even did our honeymoon in a Cessna - which involved considerable planning as it happened in southern Africa. There is, however, nothing quite comparable to landing at a lodge in your own airplane..... which wifie is more than happy to attest to :ok:

I'm not sure if this applies to many other ladies, but emphasizing the pleasures of private flying over the general interest in all things aviation may, just may!, help.

[Contacttower]

I'm not sure if this applies to many other ladies, but emphasizing the pleasures of private flying over the general interest in all things aviation may, just may!, help.

I think that is certainly true; for example on one of the early trips I did with my girlfriend we went away to an island on the west coast of Scotland just for a little time together away from things - something that I know she feels we don't always get enough of. It was a good way of introducing her to my slightly mysterious hobby and generally left her with a good impression of flying.

Subsequently she has come to with me to Marseille and also a trip from our place in Scotland down to London for a weekend. She's always been supportive, even on the occasion once when we had to delay a trip by a day due to fog at the airfield. By taking her places I think it keeps a purpose to flying which means she is more likely to view it in a favourable light.

[ChampChump]

Since my partner is as obsessed with flying his aeroplane as I am mine, I cannot but add that I think it is about testing the water in the same way one does with other family members: a short flight in smooth air to start with, if at all possible. You can tell fairly soon if there's any interest beyond the sightseeing aspect, or getting from A to B, if that's part of the mission. More importantly, unless you are incredibly thick-skinned, it's fairly easy to judge what your partner/mother/sister/brother is doing. Beyond the polite response, at worst, (if you hate it, say so, you're allowed, you're family...), there are fewer subtle reactions than one might think.

So, having got the response and reactions & read the body language if necessary, you know whether to work on future flights or leave it there for the time being. At least at this stage they can see what a small aeroplane looks and feels like (how many people never get up close to anything with one engine (or none)?) and thus understand a whole lot more about what you are going to be enthusing. For all those who ask the questions and have enthusiasms of their own, there are as many who see what it is and how you love it, but are happy for you to do your thing and will likely be proud of you for doing it too, but just don't want to be involved. Different passions are a good thing too. Just be prepared to do that one round of golf or whatever in the interests of balance :yuk:

[proplover]

OMG so much of this seems soooooo familier.

Was into competition motor cycling when met wife to be, there was mild interest shown but being somewhat cynical these days I believe it was more my bank balance that held her main interest.

Due to failing down the stairs (slipped on something she'd left on them!) I sustained a back injury which ended the m/c stuff. Shortly after that met up with local PPL guys and having always had had an interest in aviation, to cut a long story I went and completed my PPL. During the learning phase there was very little interest shown and all I got was a "thats nice" when my licence dropped through the letter box.

Since then interest has been zero, she hasnt even been up to see my aircraft which is all of 15mins away. Ive tried the quite chat, what her concerns are etc etc all to no avail. However its a different story re her interest which involves horses. If 100% attention isnt paid to hearing about every hoof problem, jump, fall and latest horsey rumour all hell is let loose!! Our 2 daughters are also involved with them and I love to go an see them all riding and I try to help out at the stables when I can - love seeing them enjoying their hobby. Interesting thing is that they cost more than my flying (apparently they have to all have a spare horse as well) and need daily maintainece!

My wife used to be happy doing commercial flights to holiday destinations but that changed after a trip back from Tunisa on a UK airline when they just announced mid journey that there was "an issue with the plane" and that we were going into Gatwick. We flew back at low level so I presumed there was a pressurisation problem although we we never told and after a hairy landing (with attendant fire engines) the crew up and left us on the tarmac for 2hrs! The event freaked her out and I have every sympathy. She has announced that she hates flying, when Im at airshows for weekends she wont contact me, never asks how it was - basically if it was flying related I was blanked! Our relationship reached a point when on one occasion I returned happily home to be greeted with " I thought flying was dangerous but you keep comming back!" Had the impression she wasnt joking.

O how things have changed recently, met a female who is learning to fly so to help her with her map reading I took her for a few flights and then to an airshow or two. To my delight she loved the airshows and asks if she can go to more. My wife has now become VERY interested as to my flying to the point where its now 1001 questions on every trip out. Not sure what was worse, no interest or the inquisition on every flight!

[IO540]

Sounds like you need to upgrade your relationship :)

Men are such mugs, and I include myself in that 100%.

However its a different story re her interest which involves horses. If 100% attention isnt paid to hearing about every hoof problem, jump, fall and latest horsey rumour all hell is let loose!! Our 2 daughters are also involved with them and I love to go an see them all riding and I try to help out at the stables when I can - love seeing them enjoying their hobby. Interesting thing is that they cost more than my flying (apparently they have to all have a spare horse as well) and need daily maintainece!

Tell me about it. My ex was horse mad too. It is a totally all-consuming hobby, with heavy emotions flowing whenever The Horse throws a wobbly, which given it has the intelligence and manipulative manners of a 2 year old child, is quite often. The whole thing is well supported by an army of horse dentists and farriers of whom most drive top end BMWs, not to mention some good looking guys who "fix fences" :)

This part of the UK (Sussex) is jam packed with women who desperately look for a man (any man, so long as he doesn't beat them up too often) who has enough money to buy a 4x4, a horsebox, and pay for stabling or a field, etc. I fell for that trap back in the 1980s :)

Compared to horses, a plane is no trouble at all... more expensive though - a horse costs about £3000/year and that is if you have your own field (we had 3 acres; my ex still lives there, on my account :) ). If you have to pay for a full livery it is probably comparable to flying 50-100hrs/year.

I would not have gone out with another horsey woman, after that.

The funny thing is that if a man was into horses, and was essentially jobless, no woman would go after him :)

[flybymike]

Yup. We had ten acres, horses and donkeys. Then the Mrs. ran off with a chap who attended all the same equine shows we did...:rolleyes:

[mary meagher]

Backpacker, in post no. 38, brings up the most IMPORTANT suggestion of all.
The trouble with taking your lady up with you is that almost all men like to show off and impress the female. Sitting in the RH seat with a half-baked low time pilot who is mightily convinced of his ability is not usually a good experience for any woman. Especially if she is his partner and is well aware of all his shortcomings.

Say "I would love to take you flying, dear, but I would be much happier if first you could accept my gift to you of a day's flying with a PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTOR!' Find a flying school with a female instructor - who will not only be safe, but can be a role model. The suggestion of Backpacker that your partner qualify as a Safety Pilot who can manage if you become incapacitated (any worse than usual) is excellent. Only after she has accepted this gift and still wants to fly with you, keep it short and smooth.
Buy her an airband set, arrange for her to learn to use the radio.
Let HER plan your trip together. Check the weather, use the charts etc.

Or even better, go on a course together at a gliding club next summer!

[IO540]

I found that the more I told my girlfriend about weather and possible system failure modes, the more concerned she has become about flying - not just ours but commercial flying too. She has a Philosophy PhD and is super bright and you would think an explanation of some risk factor would be accepted, but she has a point that when I am flying in IMC she asks "how can you be sure there is nothing lurking in there"? Fortunately I am no fan of long enroute IMC either...

GA pilots tend to have a gory interest in crashes, and the evidence thus far on the recent A380 "engine back end walkabout" suggests it was far more serious than what made the press. It is easy to get talking to one's family etc about these things, but it doesn't reduce their fears.

A good point about the copilot course but not many owners of the fairly advanced planes would let the typical PPL-scene instructor go off in their plane. Few instructors know about engine management for example.

But basically "normal" women tend to be more interested in the destinations, rather than flying there, and that's perfectly fine.

A nice clean modern plane does help a lot :)

[Gertrude the Wombat]

a little knowledge can sometimes be a bad thing
"A little learning," please, FFS. Not everybody who misquotes this can be doing so as a deliberate recursive joke.

[Hannah222]

Well I don't have the problem of a husband or partner haha but my family have no interest in flying at all- besides the cost and how many hours until I get the lisence! I can't remember mum askingbout safety really other than whn I mentioned going solo. My sister just cuts me off when I mention planes and my best friend talks to me but just doesn't understand the fun of it or hoe I'm so interested and obviously I can't take either of them up with me nor afford flying lessons for them so I'm stuck with telling all you guys how cool it is which you allready know!! And I don't like telling people at air cadets boitit either cus it seems like boasting. Sorry about spelling too I'm in a rush and my iPod corrects me- if I was your wife I'd be happy to talk to you about flying haha

[mary meagher]

Good on you, Hannah! If you can find a copy on Amazon, get hold of Ernest K. Gahn's book FATE IS THE HUNTER.

And if you live in the midlands, we have 15 people near your age in our gliding club at Shenington who enjoy yakking about it all! They usually go solo on the 16th birthday! (weather permitting). Friday evening is the usual meet up time, but during winter, the kids turn up on Sundays.

as the old song has it, "....I became a bore when I learned to soar, just watch them edge away....!"

[LH2]

Care to expand FFS?

Which part? If you are referring to the acronym, it stands for "For Fυck's Sake", which curiously, is meant to be an euphemism for "For Christ/God/Someone important in your culture's Sake".

If instead you are referring to Gertrude's comment itself, he is pointing out that you have misquoted a line from a poem by Alexander Pope, and how that is a very common occurrence.

[24Carrot]

... he is pointing out that you have misquoted a line... ... and did so with a quip any logician would be proud of.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

a poem by Alexander Pope
I suppose I should admit that I haven't actually read it, and that what I know about it comes from things my mother quoted at me when I was a teenager and she was catching up with the degree that she never passed when she was a teenager.

The other bit that most people know from that poem, and are less likely to misquote, is "fools rush in where angels fear to tread".

[stickandrudderman]

If you are referring to the acronym, it stands for "For F***'s Sake"

This:

Well I don't have the problem of a husband or partner haha but my family have no interest in flying at all- besides the cost and how many hours until I get the lisence! I can't remember mum askingbout safety really other than whn I mentioned going solo. My sister just cuts me off when I mention planes and my best friend talks to me but just doesn't understand the fun of it or hoe I'm so interested and obviously I can't take either of them up with me nor afford flying lessons for them so I'm stuck with telling all you guys how cool it is which you allready know!! And I don't like telling people at air cadets boitit either cus it seems like boasting. Sorry about spelling too I'm in a rush and my iPod corrects me- if I was your wife I'd be happy to talk to you about flying haha

Is why we use acronyms.:=

[flybymike]

Alas there is far worse for young minds on the internet than FFS.

[BeechNut]

Dublinpilot:

But that is only true of commerica air travel. The risks involved in light GA are significantly higher than that.

Well yes and no. If you lump all GA risk together then yes, you're correct. But then not all flights are of equal risk. Some of us, doing this as a hobby and not a necessity, simply stay in the airport restaurant drinking coffee and swapping lies when the weather is dodgy. Others using their plane as a "must get there" device, are more inclined to take risks. I for one have long realized that as a VFR day/night/on-top pilot, if I MUST get there, my VW is a better bet than my Beech so I play it safe and drive.

Flying VFR on a fine day in a basic, simple, spamcan doesn't carry the same risk as trying to do single-pilot IFR in icing conditions in a twin when the critical engine conks out. It is possible to manage one's risk, especially if one only flies for fun, by being selective in the types of flights we do and the conditions we fly in. At this time of the year in my part of the world, sometimes snoozing safely by the wood stove on a Saturday afternoon looks an awful lot more attractive than flying... or if I'm really up to it, an afternoon of skiing instead (which is probably at least as high risk as flying at my age :} )

[mary meagher]

Ah yes. Usually the pilot's fault, when a light aircraft goes splat. Either get-home-itis, or an exaggerated opinion of his capability....

Why do they call the Beechcraft Bonanza the Doctor Killer?

[IO540]

That's the good part of GA risk. It is down to you.

And simple things (like having some juice in the tanks) make a big difference to the individual's risk profile.

I read all the accident reports I can, and like all of us try to take something "home" from each of them, but sadly there is nothing to take home from most of them.

However, what we really see is many peoples' crap PPL training coming through. They were OK so long as they stuck to sunny Sundays flying down the coast, but they could not handle anything more tricky. I still know pilots who have done far more hours than I have and who can't read tafs or metars.

Unfortunately the accident reports leave out what to me would be the really interesting stuff: the pilot's psychology, and his detailed flying history. That stuff has to be relevant. Very occassionally, there is a crash where I happen to know a bit more of the background, and while this tends to throw up additional questions, it does provide a useful background.

Why do they call the Beechcraft Bonanza the Doctor Killer?

The problem with that description is that there is another side to it.

To make a manufacturing success in GA, one has to appeal to new, young, and wealthy pilots. It is no good trying to flog modern stuff to the old anoraks who make up most of GA - in the UK, USA or anywhere else.

But every time somebody tries this type of marketing (which is totally necessary) they end up killing a bunch of "doctors" :)

[AN2 Driver]

I guess I have to be thankful. Both partners I've had in my flying career love flying. My wife is proud of us owning our Mooney and loves to fly in it, even the fact that we 'll have to shell out a lot of cash now for the engine revision has not really dampened her comitment to stay behind me here. I know I am lucky.

My first partner many years ago was more than happy to fly with me in my C150 at the time and we went all over Europe in it.

I hear a lot of negative things from others however, most having been said here already. I also think it is not a pheonmenon restricted to aviation but more of a general problem. Relationships today do often take on the character of a battle for dominance and a total lack of mutual understanding for the other's interest and needs. Even the very popular "try before you marry" option today is not foolproof, many partners change radically even during the honeymoon, once they got the papers signed.

Another issue these days is that many of us are simply overworked in all regards and can not really enjoy anything outside work anymore. It is sort of understandable that after collapsing on the sofa on Friday evening, some people won't simply have the energy to accompany their significant other for whatever pursuit they wish to share over the weekend and their idea of quality time is to finally get the sleep they lack from the 18 hours days they put in over the week.

Before I decided to go back into aviaiton after a 7 year hiatus I talked about it with my wife and she encouraged me, a bit to my surprise as she is usually economical with our finances. Yet she determined that I would be much nicer to have around if I have something to balance from my otherwise very stressful life and she'd not mind the occasional trip to the med herself. The very idea to be at the beach after 2 flight hours became pretty attractive to her as well.

I reckon communication is the most important bit about all of this. Make your intentions and wishes clear, and try to sell it by getting her to see what is in it for her. If all that does not work, then then it is a tough decision to take.

Best regards

AN2 driver

[AN2 Driver]

forgot something :)

Some time this year when going out to my plane on the apron of ZRH I noted a couple going for their obviously first flight together, both in their early 20ties. Either the guy had been a tad boastful when telling her what plane he was actually flying, or she had a totally wrong impression of the term private airplane, as she headed straight for a Falcon 20 sitting on the tarmac in the general direction they were walking. When he pointed out to her that, err, sorry, it's not that one but the Archer behind it, the lady did not take it too kindly and dressed the guy down quite vocally in the sense of "how dare you to even suggest that I step on anything but a business jet" e.t.c. to the stunned silence of some onlookers. She marched off on her high heels with surprising speed and vanished, probably never to be seen again.

Good riddance for him I reckon, she might have proven a much more expensive pasttime then flying. :}

[fernytickles]

AN2 - just goes to show, size IS important :}

[IO540]

He's lucky; he got away lightly. Others might have married her :)

No doubt, one day, some male mug will. There is an endless supply of them (under 40).

[flybymike]

Like me, there speaks another (over 40) mugged man....

[AN2 Driver]

;)

just as I expected good comments. Appears the lucky fellow does read here and made the right connections, got his per mail :)


yea, sometimes it is better to have people one thinks one knows out for a test drive so to speak, to prevent ugly surprises later.

But regarding the original topic, it is sometimes perverse to see what rep our kind of aviation has achieved over the years.... I had my own sense of responsibility questioned repeatedly by folks who later turned out to do things I do consider a sight more dangerous then my flying... It is a bit absurd to have the dangers of private aviation pointed out to me by people like motorbike addicts (that one drove a Harley which regularly wakes the whole quarter up when she's out for early shift), a repeat Himalaya climber, several divers and least of all one gal who used to work in foreign aid projects in places like Afghanistan during the Taliban rule.... :eek:

What was that line again? Nothing is so difficult to kill than a prejudice.

[Chequeredflag]

Some years ago, my wife was very aware of my longing for a ppl. She bought me the first 6 lessons for Xmas. However, one day, having achieved my license, I went into the lounge to find her quietly crying. She was petrified of what the kids and rest of family would say if I managed to kill myself, feeling she would be blamed for kickstarting the proceedure!!

A few years on, she accepts that it is unlikely that I will come to any harm, but still worries, and insists on a phone call the moment I land! Being claustrophobic, she will not fly in a small aircraft (she suffers, even in a 737) so I cannot take her with me to help put her mind at rest (or otherwise!!).

[neilgeddes]

My wife appreciates I'm more likely to come to harm driving to and from the airfield than in the air. Less nutters up there!

[IO540]

Being claustrophobic, she will not fly in a small aircraft (she suffers, even in a 737) so I cannot take her with me to help put her mind at rest (or otherwise!!).I don't want anybody to take this comment the wrong way... it is just a straight observation in human nature.

If you meet a girl, and the relationship progresses, in general (I would think, in these modern times) you will go on a holiday abroad with her before marrying her or before making any major commitment like buying a house together.

So, off you do to the airport, and she has a major problem getting into a 737.

So the holiday is probably off, but more to the point you realise that holidays in general are going to be a problem.

I would suggest that if the boot was on the other foot i.e. it was the bloke who would not get into a 737, most women (being on a very sharp lookout for the strange tendencies which men are supposedly susceptible to, like train/plane spotting) would leg it at that point. Unless you had the looks and charm of G Clooney, you wouldn't see her for dust.

Yet most blokes (under about 40) would not see this as a problem. They think they can "help her", but of course this isn't so easy.

I once went out with a girl (she was about 30) who was almost sick at the mere thought of getting into a plane. I thought (probably correctly) that this would be a huge can of worms, but I don't think she had any problem finding boyfriends...

I see loads of blokes giving up flying (and probably other relatively time-consuming hobbies which I wouldn't know about) under pressure from disinterested women, and I have to ask myself what led them to shack up with her in the first place.

Less nutters up there!

More likely, they are more spread out :)

[Piper.Classique]

I met my other half at a gliding rally. Thirty years on, we are still flying together and separately, with a cub and two gliders between us. It hasn't always been an easy relationship, and I think sometimes it's the flying that has kept us together. Don't underestimate the force of a shared pleasure! On the other hand, he doesn't like knitting and I don't like woodworking. So we do have time apart from each other.

[LH2]

This:
Is why we use acronyms.:=

If you are referring to a 15 y.o. posting and reading here, of which I am perfectly aware, that is fine. If you come from a prudish background you are perfectly welcome to use whichever euphemisms and circumlocutions you do find appropriate.

In the meanwhile, there are other cultures and schools of opinion which favour clarity of expression and have altogether different perceptions of what is obscene and what is not, and how to treat each case. As you may guess, I belong to this latter group.

[AOB9]

"She marched off on her high heels with surprising speed and vanished, probably never to be seen again. "

...........nothing like a lucky escape. I've seen a few of my mates suffer really badly in the hands of "high maintenance". :sad:

[flybymike]

I would suggest that if the boot was on the other foot i.e. it was the bloke who would not get into a 737, most women (being on a very sharp lookout for the strange tendencies which men are supposedly susceptible to, like train/plane spotting) would leg it at that point. Unless you had the looks and charm of G Clooney, you wouldn't see her for dust.



It is so refreshing to see such cynicism in fellow man...;)

[JohnnyPharm]

My whole flying training and career aspirations have been totally ruined by neurotic females. I think it is initially due to having so much fun and interest without them. Then as you het closer to ATPL jealousy kicks in as they imagine you with your gold braid trapped in a metal tube with the hosties. Trust me, many females cannot bear the thought of you on an overnight with a bunch of flying mattresses.

I now play a lot of golf basically every minute I have free, and the partners get pissed off with that as well ie having fun with the boys. They usually say "I thought we could do something together this weekend" I say "like what", they say "we could go shopping at TESCO". FFS do you really think I would give up a round of golf to go to the shops!!!!

Back to the jealousy bit, think of an aircraft as your ideal mistress. You have to tie them down EVERY night, they don't get jealous if you look at other aircraft, they don't get jealous when you look at aircraft magazines and the whining stops when you turn the engines off!!!!!:D

[AN2 Driver]

I see loads of blokes giving up flying (and probably other relatively time-consuming hobbies which I wouldn't know about) under pressure from disinterested women, and I have to ask myself what led them to shack up with her in the first place.

Sometimes when I read all these things and also out of experience I wonder whatever happened to becoming friends before lovers? It is amazing to me how many people out there use the cockney term for their partners in earnest and wonder why the hell they ever got into this mess they are in?

Would friends do the things we mention here to each other? I guess not, otherwise, with such friends who needs enemies.

Now, I think you do know the answer to that ... it comes down to which "F" the man is more interested in

that does nail it rather well :} :)

Especcially after bad experiences before, a lot of males will put on the pink filter over their Ray Bans before realizing that there is no free lunch, especcially in that regard. By the time brains take over from the nether regions, your finger might well set of the metal detector. I do reckon that lots of relationships which break do so out of the initial misconception that compatibility in bed means compatibility elsewhere plus the even worse idea that the partner, of course always the other, will "change" to accomodate what one looks for outside the sack. Wrong.

Sometimes it does help to bring it down to this basic question. If you see that your partner treats his/her friends with more coutesy and manner than yourself, it is sometimes sobering but effective to bring up the question of friendship in a relationship. The distinct lack of which might well be a reason to pull the plug even if things are still good to brilliant in other aspects. It is crude but true that skilled lovers are easier to find than true friends.

Back to the jealousy bit, think of an aircraft as your ideal mistress.

I know you're joking, as are those which think beer is the best mistress with as compelling reasons. Again, that is not it. I for one have to say that travelling and flying alone without anyone to share the experience with is half if any fun.

[IO540]

they imagine you with your gold braid trapped in a metal tube with the hosties

She is right, of course.

Have you read Air Babylon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Air-Babylon-Imogen-Edwards-Jones/dp/0593054563)?

It's all true :)

we could go shopping at TESCO

Actually I really enjoy going shopping at TESCO with my GF. We treat it as a social research project...

[mary meagher]

It cuts both ways. First husband was afraid of flying! I rather enjoyed it, as a passenger, first as a kid over Tampa Bay, paid for it by dishwashing! still remember the marvelous turquoise clear waters, seeing manatees from above looking like slugs cuddling up together near the shores....

Then later, after we had four children, our first holiday he was so nervous he insisted we fly in separate planes -not a bad idea in those days.
We did fly together once, in Mexico in a Dakota flown by a Native American, walking down a center aisle that sloped; then well banked turns on the approach to Casas Grandes, husband slumped in his seat with his eyes shut fast and muttering prayers..

But it wasn't until he dumped me for a younger model that I decided to do something reckless; had my ears pierced and went for a ride in a glider at High Wycombe. Recognised at once this is what I really wanted.

After ten years of flying, and realising that most pilots preferred a serious relationship to their gliders rather than the opposite sex, I put an ad in the Times, and found dear Henry, who had been in the British Army, and I taught him to fly! We had many happy years together.

[IO540]

I put an ad in the Times

That side of things has got a lot easier in the last 10 years, which is why there is a lot less of an excuse nowadays for ending up with somebody who you have little in common with.

[AOB9]

@IO540 "Actually I really enjoy going shopping at TESCO with my GF. We treat it as a social research project..."


That comment brought a smile to my face. I love "people watching" at shopping centres, cheap entertainment.

Apologies for off topic.

[The Fenland Flyer]

I think part of the problem is that flying is not just another hobby. For me it’s more of an obsession and I really can’t imagine spending the rest of my life with a man who doesn’t have at least some interest.
I only got my license this year. I'm looking for someone to share the experience (and hopefully the flying itself) with, who will enjoy fly-ins at weekends in the summer, and maybe flying up to Scotland or to over to France for a few day's holiday.

I’m not interested in tagging along to some ground based hobby at weekends. If it was evenings, then fine but there are few enough beautiful flying days at the weekends as it is to risk loosing even one of then. If I’m not flying myself then I’d still much rather be at the airfield than anywhere else on a nice day. Airfields are magical places and worthy destinations in their own right in my opinion.
I could choose someone who goes off and does his own thing every weekend, I don’t had any problem with that but I can’t see there ever being any real sparkle in such a relationship.

-Katie

[IO540]

Doing your own thing every weekend (i.e. Sat and Sun) is going to finish any relationship eventually.

That is the problem, as far as I can see, with gliding, or "serious" sailing. Power flying you can just do part-time, and if you have flexibility on weekdays you can do it then.

I think the best relationships are ones where each of you has their own "projects" but you spend time together in the evenings and say on Sunday. In too many relationships one person is "hanging onto" the other.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I’m not interested in tagging along to some ground based hobby at weekends.
Some couples end up with a "ground based hobby" called "children". Which doesn't just take up weekends of course, it's 24/7.

[IO540]

That's true but kids should not "ground" both of you, unless you are broke (which many are) but then you won't be doing much flying anyway.

[austerwobbler]

My wife love's to go flying but as we have to boy's aged 11 and 6 she is always concerned about the fact that if anything goes wrong it's both of us in the plane together :uhoh:

Austerwobbler

[Gertrude the Wombat]

That's true but kids should not "ground" both of you, unless you are broke
Not exactly "broke", but for a number of years the childcare bill came to several times what I used to spend on flying. I have taken up flying again since we haven't had to pay nurseries.
My wife love's to go flying but as we have to boy's aged 11 and 6 she is always concerned about the fact that if anything goes wrong it's both of us in the plane together
Yes, I am allowed to take the children flying, but not all of them at once, and my wife won't come flying with me unless there's another pilot in the aircraft. (Which was useful on the most recent occasion, as the other pilot had more experience of sorting out an engine failure than I had.)

[mary meagher]

Well now, I am puzzled.....IO540, are you really that old? And Gertrude, the wombat, why Gertrude? I had assumed you were of the other gender....

Nice to hear from Fenland Flyer and Piper Classique: flying is an obsession akin to music, other people just don't understand what you are on about!
Gender, in these cases, is irrelevant.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

why Gertrude
Long story ... Once Upon A Time a mate of mine used to call pieces of software after his girlfriends, so to take the piss I called something Gertrude. Plus I rather like wombats (although they're not the brightest of animals).

So, when I came to sign up to PPRuNe nobody but nobody was using their real name, and to do so would have looked decidedly odd. In protest against this weird convention I made up the daftest name I could think of in my then current state of sobriety, and there we are.

Not that posting under other than one's real name actually hides who you are. I once asked in another place, nothing to do with aeroplanes, where I post under my real name, "so what's my PPRuNe handle then?" and someone (not a PPRuNe regluar) had worked out the correct answer in less than an hour.

[flybymike]

I only got my license this year. I'm looking for someone to share the experience (and hopefully the flying itself) with, who will enjoy fly-ins at weekends in the summer, and maybe flying up to Scotland or to over to France for a few day's holiday.



A post like that from a 30 year old female obsessed with flying on a forum full of old male codgers, should bring forward no shortage of applications.

[IO540]

That's really funny :)

A couple of years ago there was a site for informal seat sharing / mentoring and such. I put my name on it, where I was based, and the sort of flying I did.

Most of the (few) replies I got were one-liners from women, and when I asked them for details of their background (i.e. what sort of trips were they interested in) I got some pretty vague answers. One claimed to have a CPL but could not read or write.

It was obviously being used as a sort of dating site, but I have not had any need for that since 2003 (15 Sep to be precise :) ).

[Echo Romeo]

Well, my wife hates flying and won't come, '' yesss result'':ok:

[flybymike]

but I have not had any need for that since 2003 (15 Sep to be precise ).

With that level of accuracy, it's about time you two got married...

[Pace]

One claimed to have a CPL but could not read or write.

10540

Sounds about right for a CPL? ;)

Pace

[KandiFloss]

I have a PPL and try to fly regularly, I just love aeroplanes. I love being around them, they have so much character about them ... I can't be the only person on pprune who can see that all aeroplanes have character and spirit ... am I? :O Erm ... moving on ...

My better half flies commercially. I thought that he would think that it is great that I am interested in flying, so that we can share flying together, but it doesnt seem so. He helps me with advice, but doesn't get excited about flying anymore. He's lost the passion for flying that he once had when he was going through what I am now. This upsets me when I tell him about how my flying went and what I did, and times that I am proud of my flying, but he seems indifferent sometimes.

I have taken a few female friends flying, who have all enjoyed it (even one who was afraid of heights). If I tell people that I hold a PPL the response is variable. Some people think that it is impressive, but others don't seem that bothered. I think it just depends what you're in to. I like girly things, but I also like machines too.

I wonder if it is to do with the fact that sometimes people can't relate to flying 'little' aeroplanes. It amuses me when people find it hard to get their head around the idea that I can fly an aeroplane on my own. If I tell people about flying, and say I flew on my own to xyz, women, often say, "Was there an instructor with you"? ... "No, I was on my own"... "What, there was no-body with you"? ... Noooo!

[Johnm]

My wife has zero interest in flying except as a mode of transport. So if we're going somewhere we'll fly whenever we can and that works fine :-)

Though she won't touch the controls she's a good P2, reminding me of clearances and reporting points and cross checking waypoints if we're VFR as well as spotting traffic.

We've been all over the place and for her it means trips to places we wouldn't otherwise get to and/or trips to places we regularly go (e.g. Channel Islands) with less hassle and/or making day trips feasible when they otherwise wouldn't be.

[AOB9]

KandiFloss

I spoke recently to someone that left his career in accountancy a few years back. He wanted to follow his passion for flying and decided to start with his PPL and head straight to the airlines. He now pilots for Fedex. He reckons that the best part of his training was doing his PPL, after that it all got very serious and now there are times when he feels little more than a courier. He doesn't regret his chosen path, I think the point is no matter what your job there comes a time when it becomes just that....... "your job".

[KandiFloss]

AOB9.

Oh yes i'm sure that it does. I know lots of airline pilots who also have shares in light aircraft, as they miss the fun of flying 'little ones' and being able to fly exactly how you want and not having to fly to company standards.

I wonder if some airline pilots feel a bit disenchanted having put in so much effort and money to get where they want to be and feel 'oh is this it, is this what i've put my whole heart into?' and feel a bit disappointed when the buzz has gone.