Landing Fees @ Regional Airports

[stopbar]

I posted this under the Airports section but in retrospect this may be a more relevant sorry for any duplication. I have seen a lot of discussion re fees etc so what do private pilots consider a fair and reasonable landing fee inc handling, for an aircraft max all up weight of between 1000kg and 1500kg, not inc VAT at airport that has the facilities of a regional airport ie fully licensed, instrument approaches, full fire cover, customs etc? :):)

[Katamarino]

$0

If the USA can make it work, then we with our far, far higher fuel taxes are being taken for mugs having to pay landing fees at all.

[IO540]

1000-1500kg, 15 quid.

That's if you want repeat visits - either for the proverbial £100 burger, or for meeting up with people.

People travelling on business would pay more (say £50 if there was an ILS - that makes a huge difference to business flying ability).

If the airport was in some fantastic location, where the typical visitor visited just once every few years, then you can charge more. For example Prague LKPR was getting plenty of (upmarket) light GA when they were around the £60 mark, in 2005. Now they are more like £150 and hardly anybody goes there, leaving the ~ 10 staff in the "old terminal" twiddling their thumbs. I fly there, and to other £150 locations, every few years. I cannot think of any suitable "desirable" examples in the UK though.

That said, there is a big section of UK GA which won't pay more than a fiver, but you can't please everybody. These are mostly homebuilt/microlight pilots, and they fly a lot between strips. It is an interesting and valid business case whether you want to attract sub-1000kg traffic at £5 a pop. GA presents very little in terms of variable costs so all of that £5 will be a contribution towards your fixed costs - all the time you are operating below max capacity ;) And if you set up a separate "GA entrance" for them, they are not going to push your capacity, so that money is all profit.

BTW, there is (I understand) no known case, since WW2, of an airport fire service having saved a single life, in the GA context.

$0

That would require a big change at government level, comparable to the govt giving a grant to the Royal Yacht Club on the basis that the yacht owners pay a lot of income tax (which I am sure some of them do) ;)

[neilgeddes]

at airport that has the facilities of a regional airport ie fully licensed, instrument approaches, full fire cover, customs etc?


Sounds like a Biggin Hill type airport. There you're paying c. £20+VAT to land or £50+VAT for an instrument approach. That's too expensive for GA really. Thinking in the South East Shoreham and Lydd are cheaper and more reasonable (nothing extra for an approach?)

[Rod1]

Depends on alternatives in the area. Most of GA does not need ILS, Customs or fire cover. Chances are there is a 600m+ strip down the road with 0 - £5 landing fee. If you have to have the expensive bits then a guess £50 is a snip.

Rod1

[Captain Smithy]

A touchy subject landing fees. To my common sense for <2000Kg GA £15 would be the upper limit for a sensible landing charge, with perhaps a £10/night parking fee for security at larger aerodromes. No need whatsoever for this "compulsory handling" pish which inflates many aerodromes to £100+ per night - completely indefensible.

Smithy

[robin]

I'll drink to that. If only they did show some generosity of spirit to GA they might find it would benefit them.

I remember that last year Southend were writing asking for help in a planning application but they were probably disappointed at the replies from GA pilots. Having spent years upsetting GA they seem to have expected us to rally round to help. They shouldn't be surprised to get a raspberry in return

Norwich and Exeter both seem to have the same attitude.

[Fuji Abound]

For truly regional airports £25 would be ok with me.

A couple of hours free parking makes huge sense, and thereafter perhaps £20 for a day would not seem unreasonable.

Reminds me of my last visit to Gatwick in less than happy circumstances. The day trip would have probably been around £1,000. The reality there is acres (literally of empty space) and at the "right" time of day one CAT in the approach and a couple of people in the GA portacabin (and very nice people they were) looking for something to do. The reality is BAA just cant be bothered with what they perceive as the hassle. Shame really.

In reality every where is considerably more - Leeds Bradford for a 4 hour visit was well over £100 recently as but one example. Not surprisingly these places end up with "based" aircraft and not a lot more.

[englishal]

As GA traffic (I'm talking sub 1500Kg) is "incidental" to airline traffic and is just fitted in, then what is wrong with 15 quid as an upper limit? The ATCOs are there anyway.

I quite often go down to Plymouth, which is a fantastic little airport. Very professional, full ATC with "approach", instrument approaches, and everything you could want and landing was only about a tenner. We keep going back as a result - I have never been in to Exeter for this very reason.

I landed at Edinburgh, and by the time you added in approach / landing fees then the compulsory handling, the bill was about 95 quid. I only used 130 quids worth of petrol to fly up there from Oxford!

[soaringhigh650]

$0.

Funded through the fuel taxes I pay.

[goldeneaglepilot]

BTW, there is (I understand) no known case, since WW2, of an airport fire service having saved a single life, in the GA context

Perhaps the guys involved in the accident at Birmingham last week might feel a little bit saved by the Airport fire service. How long would it have taken the local fire service to have reached the accident?

Having witnessed two aeroplanes being saved over the years after over enthusiastic priming by students I disagree with the comment in IO540's post. In both cases the students simply did not know (yes I know - it raises questions about the instructor, but it happened) In both cases it was a little late when ATC realised the aircraft were well alight, without the AFS intervention at best the aeroplanes would have been destroyed.

How much is a landing at Birmingham today?

[englishal]

I read one of the CAA's future airspace consultation docs the other day. The thing that surprised me is that they said that GA contributes 1.4 BILLION pounds to the economy p.a.

You'd think they'd give us free landings after that !

[bartonflyer]

Quite instructive to see what the definition of GA is

General aviation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_aviation)

Rather more than me toddling along in a light single!

[cessnapete]

France have the right idea.
Flew to Calais today for some instrument approach practice. Cessna 210 turbo-prop conversion.
4 ILS, 1 hold, 1 landing. 30 €, and a nice pate baguette for lunch !!

[Mickey Kaye]

The biggest problem is the handling. I have no problem paying 25 quid to land but 75 quid for some prick in a white van picking me up takes the biscuit.

[maxred]

Yep, France is good.Two weeks parking at Carcassonne, plus three landing fees, 32 Euro last year. Great value. Perpignan the same.

Ibiza with a pick up included, from memory, 15 euro.

I am Glasgow based, and pay as resident 26 quid. Given I get full ILS, night arrivals, et al I think is very fair value.

What pisses me off is the guy/female that used to hide in the bushes at Plockton, jump out as you were leaving stuffing an invoice in your hand, and the might of Highlands accounts department afer you for 12 quid.I always argued claiming it was a strip of tarmac, with bugger all 'services'.Made no difference mind you:*

[miroc]

--
$0

If the USA can make it work, then we with our far, far higher fuel taxes are being taken for mugs having to pay landing fees at all.
--

Everything has a value. If there is no landing fee, something is wrong.

Theoretically a system where is no such thing as fuel tax and every service has to be paid according to its value is IMHO better. I can understand that this model helped the GA a lot in USA, but it is still a kind of redistributing the fuel tax and that's wrong.

Are you sure somebody is doing this (redistributing) the optimal way? What if some places have longer/wider/better runway with ILS if somewhere nearby is a place which needs it more but the responsible person has worse or no contacts at FAA (or whoever is deciding about the money)?

I didn't fly in UK (yet) but in Austria/Germany the fees between 15 and 20 EUR are normal at places like Straubing, Vilshofen, Zell am See with 1+km asphalt runways. They have decent briefing rooms, restaurants and other facilities too. As the equivalent of 15 GBP it is acceptable. But the question is where is the fuel tax going?

The fees at bigger airports with compulsory handling are scaring me away. I was told, at Bratislava (LZIB) - for me the closest one, is a landing with C172 + 1 passenger + 1 night parking + handling = ca. 83 EUR. That's simply unacceptable. The number of movements is low, no real need to keep the GA away. Why they are doing this? Over 30 EUR of this is handling - 300m ride with a bus...

The ideal world would be WITHOUT fuel tax and WITH landing fees. Unfortunately in socialist Europe it remains a dream.

[007helicopter]

Sounds like a Biggin Hill type airport. There you're paying c. £20+VAT to land or £50+VAT for an instrument approach. That's too expensive for GA really

In fact the £20 landing fee includes the ILS approach (Well it did yesterday) which I personally think is damn good value for an airport with good facilities close to London.

The £50 - £70 I pay at Exeter and Newcastle is a bit steep in my opinion.

[ShyTorque]

The £50 - £70 I pay at Exeter and Newcastle is a bit steep in my opinion.

Tried Battersea recently?

[matspart3]

£20 at Gloucester, reducing to £14 if you uplift Avgas.

[IO540]

America cannot be compared with over here, for many reasons, starting with airport funding.

Airports over here are mostly privately operated, and when they are "publicly" operated they still (usually) need to show a profit. It is, I think, only in a very few locations in Europe that an airport is regarded as a part of the local economic infrastructure, run to generate revenue elsewhere in the community, which is what the USA (sensibly) does.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Sorry IO540, can't agree there. Actually one can't speak about Europe as a whole, there's too much regional variation. What you say may well apply to the UK, and perhaps to some other countries, too.
But in France, for one example, the vast majority of a/d's are operated locally, either by the municipality or by the "Chambre de Commerce et Industries".

[Captain Smithy]

Perhaps a better idea in terms of "handling" would be for everyone to simply pay for the services they require.

Someone mentioned that light singles are not all that comprises "GA". Good point.

Light singles require no handling at all, probably not requiring instrument approach services (apart from certain circumstances), ground power, passenger/cargo handling etc. So perhaps for light VFR singles there should be a simple landing & parking charge. Say £15/landing and £10 per night. And no bloke in a van to drive you a couple of hundred yards.

The purpose at larger airports for "mandatory handling" would appear to be purely for security. Fair enough. But most larger airfields have a GA ramp separate from the rest of the airfield, making it difficult to just wander around a large airport. Certainly without being noticed. Considering most pilots are trustworthy types, many of whom already have security clearance of some sort either through involvement with aviation or at work, other activities etc., and the pilot is always responsible for his passengers, is it really necissary to be escorted at all times, and to have to pay a hefty charge for this?

Those who require approach facilities - VOR, ILS etc. - then that would be charged. Say £15 per approach.

For larger GA types - King Airs, Citations etc. that require further ground support - GPU, tug, pax bus, fuelling, any other support - then further charges for that. I admit I have no idea what a GPU etc. costs per hour to run. But same principle, if you need it you pay for it.

Just some thoughts.

[Fuji Abound]

But in France, for one example, the vast majority of a/d's are operated locally, either by the municipality or by the "Chambre de Commerce et Industries".


and they represent remarkably good value compared with the UK.

As to profit, I am not entirely sure on scrutiny this is correct. Take two examples - Gatwick and Southampton, both BAA. Southampton has now incorporated six dedicated GA spaces on the main ramp and reduced their fees for these spaces substantially (although still not "cheap"). In reality whatever income they generate I doubt it contributes to any extent to their profit model; the income is tiny and the additional costs marginal because there is no increase in the existing infrastructure already in place to handle other private bizjet traffic.

So, my point is well done Southampton. Gatwick could do the same but dont. Providing half a dozen spaces to GA on a first come first served basis would make very little difference to their operations.

Why should they bother? Well normally PLCs realise it is good PR to "give something back" to the community - it is good PR.

Maybe like the Strasser scheme their should be a move to encourage the larger regional airports to provide half a dozen parking slots to GA at reasonable price. I suspect they would be used and appreciated.

[englishal]

I'd pay 50 quid to land at LGW. It'd be handy to pick up people coming in from long haul flights. It wouldn't really affect ATC, if you book your parking slot, turn up and they can orbit you until you have a chance to fit in between a couple of jets.

The US model works because they realise that having a city airport brings in revenue to the local economy.

[dont overfil]

Dundee (Highlands and Islands) is £20. Tayside Flying club does the "handling" and takes the fee.

ILS, NDB, DME, Lights and neaby Leuchars for radar. - Good value!
DO.

[soaringhigh650]

probably not requiring instrument approach services (apart from certain circumstances)

Really? With UK weather being so poor, I'd say there's more likelihood of requiring instrument approaches than not.

[Captain Smithy]

Good point, there again most spam tins here are VFR only.

[silverknapper]

Those who require approach facilities - VOR, ILS etc. - then that would be charged. Say £15 per approach.

That's good in theory - but the facility has to be maintained, callibrated and switched on all the time. Extend that theory to everyone and you could have days on end where the ILS is radiating but isn't used as everyone is taking Visual Approaches to save cash. Extend it further and you may well end up with people scud running in crap weather or indeed telling porkies about their flight conditions just to save a quid or two.
I agree it's the handling which is expensive. But this can be avoided by going to a small suitable field. You want to go to EDI then fly to Fife etc etc. In these times we can't really expect to have free access to busy international airports. Sad but true. As an example; Inverness. Up until fairly recently we had carte blanche access airside from a numeric keypad gate beside the flying school. But could we trust everyone to execute the simple task of checking it closed behind them? Apparently not. Could we even trust everyone not to tell the Sun what the code was? Apparently not. Hence front page story about lack of security. Privilege of access lost. Cue lots of whingers.:ugh:
And it is all good and well saying light a/c will fit in. I know many people in Inverness who can't even comply with or understand simple instructions or requests from ATC regarding joining. Imagine that in LGW; when the controller skillfully tries to slot in a Jodel between two airbuses? By the time he has repeated himself three times the airbus will be at 1000' on the G/A followed by the number three traffic. The lowest common denominator will always let us down.

SK

[OAGAG]

£10 incl. VAT at OXF at weekends, free landing if you uplift 45 litres of fuel, £15+VAT during the week plus £15+VAT for use of ILS. Lowest cost for IFR airport in the SE UK for light General Aviation?

[IO540]

I'd pay 50 quid to land at LGW. It'd be handy to pick up people coming in from long haul flights. It wouldn't really affect ATC, if you book your parking slot, turn up and they can orbit you until you have a chance to fit in between a couple of jets.Or they could be really revolutionary and knock up a website on which you can buy landing slots, payable by Paypal.

Of, course, there would be no slots for sale when they are busy.

They could buy the software from Friedrichshafen airport ;)

the facility has to be maintained, callibrated and switched on all the time.Not for a GPS approach.

All that needs (in the UK) is another un-crackable chestnut called "mandatory ATC". And, hey ho hey ho, somebody to pay for the procedure design.