Where to train for a PPL North of London

[IanPZ]

Hi all.

So, a new member to the forum, and just started thinking about learning to fly. Its something I've always had a hankering for, and am finally in a position where I might be able to afford it, and get the time to learn! I have a question that I'd like opinions on.

Where to learn? I have three locations near me. Elstree (about 15 mins away), Denham and Panshanger (both about 30-40 mins). The companies I was looking at are Firecrest @ Elstree, The Pilot Centre @ Denham, and North London Flying School @ Panshanger. Costs are all about the same.

I do like the idea of learning at Elstree because its so close, and I am told the runway has now been resurfaced, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on those schools, and the locations.

I've dismissed the idea of cabair, for no reason other than if I estimate 55 hours flying (who knows if I will do it in less or more) then cabair ends up about £2500 more expensive, and I just can't stretch to that.

All help, ideas and suggestions welcome.

Thanks a lot

Ian

[Janu]

Stapleford Flight Centre at Stapleford Aerodrome.

[A and C]

Stapleford...............good reputation

Denham pilot centre.................. I have had no dealings with but they have not attracted any adverse comment in this forum.

Firecrest......... nice people at an airfield with a circuit that covers most of Herts.

Airways flying club at Booker............... the "all in" pricing structure at first look covers up the very good value for money that they offer.

North London Flying School @ Panshanger.......... the Pprune search engine is your friend !

[IanPZ]

Janu, A&C,

Thanks for that. I did look at Stapleford, but its just under an hour away, and that doesn't take fighting the M25 traffic into consideration. My best bet for learning will be end of day during the week (come the summer) and Stapleford would add 2+ hours just to get there and back!

So, not Panshanger then? I read through some of the previous posts, and it seemed like a lot of negative feedback a couple of years ago, then a bunch of people saying they had taught or learnt there in the last year, and it was great. Am I being too naive?

Booker, that's wymcombe air park, right? Is that worth considering over firecrest then? I think that's what you're saying. Its almost as far in the other direction as Stapleford, but I can work out of an office near there if I want, so its a possible. It was just when I added up all the costs, they were a good £1500 more expensive than Denham.

As for the circuit at Elstree. Is that a good thing or bad? Not sure what you mean. I've not started yet, so my total knowledge is all the stuff I have read.

Thanks a lot

IPZ

[Paul H]

IanPZ. I live in Welwyn Garden City and trained at Panshanger, I still fly there a couple of times a week.
I havn't read many comments about it on here, but have admittedly read bad reviews about it in the past. I've been there since 2008 and honestly couldn't fault it. Since I've been there there have been a lot of changes, and a lot of new faces (instructors).
As far as I know there are currently 7 instructors + 1 part time female instructor at weekends. All are very nice, all are pretty young (20's-30's), and 3 recently out of Oxford Aviation Academy. They're all very helpful, polite and more than willing to help with any issues you have.
The only problem most people have is with the head of the school. He's a very nice guy, but comes across quite blunt, he simply tells it as it is, no BS. Some people don't like his attitude, but in his own words "he's a pussy cat".

I think issues in the past may have been with the instructors and/or the lack of instructors, I know one or more were asked to leave due to bad practices and attitudes, but the new lot are fine.
Come along, say hello, see for yourself.
P.S They're closed on Mondays.

Some of their more famous antics can be seen here: YouTube - Top Gun at Panshanger Airfield (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HXVi_0Hmfo&feature=related)

[Horst Schwul]

Seems to be the night for recommending www.thepilotcentre.co.uk (http://www.thepilotcentre.co.uk)

As I said in the other forum, they have a nice training environment with well trained, experienced instructors. There is a nice fleet of training aeroplanes backed up with some nice touring aeroplanes as well.

The pricing structure is transparent, what you see on the web-site is what you'll pay. No home landing fees, no fuel surcharges.

The circuit at Denham is "normal" sized - the larger the size of the circuit, the larger distance you travel in completing it. The larger size, the fewer you can do in a standard priced 'lesson'.

You know it.

Horst.

(And no, I don't work there!)

[IanPZ]

Paul, Horst,

Thanks for that. I suppose its going to come down to visiting the places and meeting them. Panshanger seems to have a bit of a marmite reputation (either love it or hate it), but I guess its worth a visit.

I wish people knew more about Elstree. If I chose purely on distance, then that would be an absolute corker for me, but trawling the forums there's almost nothing, either good or bad about firecrest. A few comments about the state of elstree's runway, and a lot of criticism about cabair (but that seems fairly standard wherever they are!).

If anyone out there has more specific experience with either elstree in general, or firecrest in particular, do let me know (perhaps I should have named the post "firecrest!".

Otherwise, it'll be visit them and see what I think.

Thanks a lot

IanPZ

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi Ian,

I can certainly vouch for The Pilot Centre at Denham: I flew there a couple of years ago. 'Nice people, good aeroplanes, reasonable prices, well run and good quality instruction. Not much 'club atmosphere' however.

Note that they have worthwhile discounts for AOPA members, however I am not sure whether this applies to student pilots. Anyway, you should join AOPA anyway as it is free for student pilots and you can learn a lot from the AOPA magazine.

Good luck!

Broomstick.

[A and C]

As I said, Firecrest are nice people but to expand on that the fleet is quire "well worn" but this is not nesseseraly a problem. The big problem is the Elstree circuit it will take you IRO 10-12 Min to get around this circuit, when you are learning to land that is 9 min of wasted flying time ( I instruct at an airfield that has an 800 ft ovel cicuit and first solo is usualy at about 9-10 hours, this is very low by todays standards however because we can pack in the landings with the circuit taking about 3 min we can save on the flying time).

Airways flying club are not very good at marketing when it comes to prices, you will find that a lot of the "add on" items that some other clubs forget to tell you about (thats what Cabair are so good at!) these are included in the Airways price, I would be very surprized if the difference in price is as high as £1500, at the end of the day I would say it would be more like £500 but then the aircraft are maintaned to a standard that is matched only by one other operator in the UK. The club facilitys are also without doubt well above average.

Denham is at a slight disadvantage as being located so close to the noth of the Heathrow zone a small amount of transit time will creep into most of the leasons, this will in effect add about £ 2-300 to the cost of the course.

[IanPZ]

Thanks for all the help.

It sounds like denham is the best option from circuit and distance perspective, and i see quite a lot of good reviews of it. Entree is probably better once i have my ppl and want somewhere close as a base. I'll keep airways in my back pocket as an option, once ive got proper pricing from them, and given the mixed reviews about panshanger....well, I've dropped them a line, and we'll see the response, but I'm not gonna hold my breath!.

Thanks again for the advice.

IPZ

[IanPZ]

Apologies, A&C. I just checked my spreadsheet (yes, I am that geeky) and I was looking at the wycombe cabair centre (no surprises there re price). Now that I have checked, I realise that I didn't get any prices from Airways, cos there aren't any on the web site, and they didn't respond to my email (doh!).

Certainly is a case of "not doing themselves any favours". I had written them off on the basis that if they can't organise themselves enough to let people know the prices, what would the flying be like. I stand corrected now!

I will try again, and speak to them if I can't get an answer by email. Who knows, they may even be cheaper ;-)

Thanks

IPZ

[trident3A]

I did my PPL at Elstree with Firecrest, they're really nice guys, aircraft are pretty well used but as far as I know well maintained. You might want to check what the situation is re circuit training there as it used to be the case that only cabair could do circuits. PM me if you want any info :ok:

[IanPZ]

Thanks Trident, PM'd you.

As for airways....ohhh....I just got their prices. They may have the best maintained fleet, but I can see why. Pricelist is very helpful, itemises everything, which matched my spreadsheet, and they came in at.....

£2300 more than the pilot centre (gulp).

And no, i didn't miss anything out. I went through all the things they listed, and I'd captured all of them for the pilot centre as well. Even if I were to learn at the pilot centre and pay as I go (which would then be the same as airways), The difference is still huge. Even if I learnt in a 4 seater, still a huge difference.

So, choice down to 2, Elstree or Denham, and I can't afford the others :-)

Thanks for all the help.

IPZ

[A and C]

While having no reason to question you calculations I find in the light of thirty years in the business I find it very hard to see how Airways are that far off the mark with the price.

I cant help thinking something is not being taken into account.

[IanPZ]

I was surprised it was so far off, since most of the other schools were a much smaller variation.

The additional costs seem to be based mostly around the actual dual instructor hours. They are charging £192 per hour for dual in a piper warrior. If I compare that to firecrest (ranges from £130-£146 for cessna 152/172) and denham (£140-£160 for cessna 152 or piper pa28).

That means that even for the most expensive alternative (pa28 at denham) I would still have about 55 hours at £32 per hour more (£192-£160). That's a whopping £1760.

All the other items (exams, ground school, medicals etc are about the same, and the only other real difference is that the pilot centre seems to chuck in the exam costs and a year's club membership.

I would really like to know I have made some blundering schoolboy error, but can't see it. And I even checked, and both the pilot centre and airways use a pa28 warrior.

But, I am more than happy to be set right ;-)

[wsmempson]

Without wanting to confuse matters unduly, I reckon that you'll be lucky to get through in minimum hours (45hrs) at your age and also given the realities of the the inconsistent nature of the good old British weather!

I was once told by a venerable instructor that for every year over 21, you could add an hour to the 45hr minimum for the ppl course. So aged 41, you're likely to take 66hrs for the course! If you get a lack of consistency to your instructors, you can find yourself doing the same lessons over and over again - even though the pilot training notes should prevent this.

For what it's worth, I learnt at British Airways Flying club (Airways Flying Club as it is now called) at Booker and was taught by Dick Thurbin, who I really can't recommend highly enough. The fleet was immaculate and I don't think I ever had an aircraft go tech on me, which is worth something in itself. Because there is a full tower at Booker, the radio work load will be greater, but will stand you in good stead for the future.

I have no axe to grind or connection with Booker (i'm now based at White Waltham) but reckon that it was a great training environment.

I've also been based at Denham and really like the guys at The Pilot Centre; however, there is one particular FISO working there in the Tower who delights in making life awkward for people, so couldn't be bothered to tiptoe about someone else's mental disorders, and moved on!

[24Carrot]

About three years ago I did a trial lesson with Firecrest at Elstree, as I was thinking of changing schools. I was very impressed with them. Unfortunately, the road congestion between them and me made it impractical.

[IanPZ]

Thanks guys. I've been taking 55 hours into consideration for budgets, as I have to start somewhere. The hope is that by the time I reach 55 hours, I've probably earned enough extra cash to pay for more hours.

As for regularity of flying, I so wish I had free time from work for 3-4 times per week :-)

It might be possible in the summer, where both elstree and denham said they are happy to fly up until sunset. But rest of the time, I am hoping for weekly, and that the weather doesn't screw it up too much.

If it takes me a year to learn, so be it. If it takes longer, again, that's life. It's not like I wont be flying when I am learning, and knowing me, I wouldn't be surprised if I carried on wanting an instructor for a while after I pass. It's not like I have a big plan to go somewhere, or become a commercial pilot. I want something that I can enjoy on a nice Sunday, somewhere to meet up with friends, something that's fun during a normal working week, rather than waiting for holidays.

The issue is whether or not I can afford the next year, and whether I'd be able to afford it if I get a PPL. I'd rather budget now, work out where I can learn, and then start, rather than just throwing myself into it, burning many thousands, and then having to give up half way through, which from what I understand, is what about 75% of prospective recreational pilots do. If I really can't afford it, I'll go the 3 axis microlight route, but if I budget and plan for it, there's a greater chance I can do it.

But 66 hours, I hope not :-) I'm a quick study, and nav and radio work are nothing strange to me from other pastimes.

[Lister Noble]

Took 53 hours aged 63 at the time.
You will take as long as it needs,there's no secret formula.
Good luck and enjoy.:)

[ChasG]

Ian - Denham Pilot Centre charge £140/hour for Cessna 152 with the discount for joining AOPA which is free for students for 2 years and joining the club which is about £130. I find them friendly and very helpful. I decided to stick with one instructor who is very relaxed and easy to get on with. I have done 7 hours so far. I have not been lucky with the weather and I think out of the last 10 lessons I have booked I have only managed to have 4. I am good at the theory and plane checks but pretty slow at picking up the flying so I have no doubt I am looking at the thick end of 60+ lessons before I am likley to pass.

[Jev Flyer]

Another vote for the Pilot Centre. I got my PPL there this summer. Very friendly and good quality instruction. You will learn in a 152 unless you have a particular reason to want to use one of the Warriors instead (they are a little more expensive).

However, you may like to try a trial lesson at Denham and the other places you are considering. They all count towards your PPL.

I don't recognise the reference to a awkward FISO mentioned by a previous poster. Never had any problem myself and fly regularly from Denham.

Hope it all goes well.

[AndoniP]

Hi Ian,

Whereabouts are you based exactly? You will need to consider travelling to and from the aerodromes themselves. If you have a full-time job and busy weekends then you won't want to be driving more than 3/4-1 hour each way, especially with London traffic being what it is, it could prolong your travelling time massively, as you may well know.

I fly with Cabair at Elstree and personally I think they are great. I booked a trial lesson at Stapleford firstly, then Elstree. The instructor at Stapleford didn't bother turning up and I was asked to go and find him in the bar, so sod them - Elstree got my vote, and they've been great. Excellent service and instructors. They might be more expensive but a) their location is convenient, b) i've never had an aircraft unavailable, c) the instructors are always ready and willing to help you out with ground school (as long as they're not too busy).

I know Cabair don't get very good PR on the forums, maybe because they are expensive, maybe because they supposedly have a business-like attitude (which i've never seen), personally i've never come across any problems.

There are 4 different circuits, 3 northerly and 1 southerly. This is because of noise abatement, you have to fly round certain towns and villages. It's not really a problem though, the inner circuit is very quick, the outer circuits will take you about 8-10 minutes each. I remember doing 5 in a 1-hour lesson.

Just my 2p

Andoni

[Miroku]

Took 65 hours at age 57, flying once per week when weather, hols etc allowing at Sywell, when it was run by Northampton School of Flying.

Have since visited Panshanger and was very put off by the owner.

Even allowing for air/ground the radio was rarely answered, and when it was it the calls sounded like someone was on a training course and had yet to read CAP 413.

[IanPZ]

Cha, Andoni, Miroko, Jev

Thanks for that. I'm going to do exactly as you mention. I'll do a trial in Denham, and another in Elstree, and see which I like best.

As for location, I live at the bottom of the M1 and drive a motorbike (so traffic tends to be less of an issue!). Elstree is 15 mins away max, Denham 35 mins. However, I did a test run on the way to and from work (assuming I will do my lessons first/last thing and manage to grab an hour off and make up the time) and its exactly the same time from work, to airfield, to home either way.

Panshanger is not on my list right now. I am sure different people have different experiences, but I'm just not interested in handing over a wodge of money to someone and then having to find out whether or not I like them. I expect whoever I learn from to be competent and professional, and it just sounds a bit hit and miss with Panshanger from what I've read (I may be being totally unfair).

As for cabair, its the cost more than anything. I am sure they don't have so many students go through and become commercial pilots by being anything less than capable, but I just don't have the extra money for it (or, not with budgeting for more than 55 hours). Right now, if it was purely about cost, I would go for a 3 axis microlight, but I reckon I can stretch to the PPL with Firecrest or Pilot centre, and that gives me more options later on.

Thanks for all the help so far, and keep the advice coming. Especially anyone who flies at elstree or denham.

IPZ

[smarthawke]

Speaking as 'a tad biased of Booker' (I work for the Airways Flying Club (http://www.airwaysflyingclub.co.uk/) !) just beware the different pricing strategies that are advertised or even sent out. [Incidentally, my colleagues have been trawling through the emails to suss out why you never received a reply to your enquiry.]

One reason AFC don't put their prices on the website is that it can be too easy to look at the rate and not any notes that go with it - which may be good or bad for a potential customer.

The following is not meant as an advertisement, merely to point out possible different charging methods. AFC customers don't pay Hobbs or Tacho but real, actual 'brakes on' to 'brakes off'. This encourages people not to rush their checks and gets rid of any 'but the Hobbs just clicked over as I taxied in' discussions.

Nor do they pay landing fees at home (the parent company operates Wycombe Air Park) or are there any fuel surcharges to be added. Pre flight and post flight briefings are free. Solo flying whilst flying as a student are charged at the solo rate, not dual.

You can probably see where some companies hourly rate may not tell the whole truth...!

Incidentally, I see the Pilot Centre prices on their website are 'valid from 01 September 2008 and are subject to change' - have they really not raised their prices in the last two years...?

PS If you (or anyone) wants a guided tour of the AFC facilities then PM me.

[Duchess_Driver]

Go on then, I'll bite!

The prices for TPC at Denham have not changed since September 2008 - I think it was actually earlier than that but they have remained the same since. They are possibly going to change when the VAT changes.

Circuits at Denham are 5 minutes from start to finish. The runway is smooth, tarmac and long enough to safely undertake a touch and go. You can do the math at how many you can do in one standard 'hour'.

The charging at TPC is airborne time plus 5 minutes either side. There are no fuel surcharges, no home landing fees and no hidden costs. Ground briefing and any groundschool are free of charge and self learning is encouraged. Exams are £25 per attempt - (you should only need one per subject!)

If you have any further questions - phone ops and ask. The Pilot Centre - Denham Aerodrome (http://www.thepilotcentre.co.uk)

HTH
DD

[tow1709]

You might want to check what the situation is re circuit training there as it used to be the case that only cabair could do circuits.


When I spoke to the guys in the Firecrest office a couple of months ago, they told me they did all their circuit training at Panshanger, so you need to allow for a transit to and from there, which could provide good nav and R/T experience and not necessarily money wasted.

When comparing prices, consider also annual membership (if any), fuel surcharge, landing fees and taxi/backtrack times and exam fees.

Bonus at Cranfield charge ~£152 for one hour dual in a PA-38. This includes ~£9.40/hr (+VAT) for fuel surcharge which does not appear on the quoted price on their website, but on the other hand all their landing fees are included, and there is no annual fee. However typically 0.2 hour per lesson is taxi/hold time.

Nevertheless I am continuing with them because I am used to them, and they seem a well run outfit. About 45 min by car from Watford - a lot less on a motor bike!!

Cheers TOW

[IanPZ]

Thanks for all of that. I think the issue for me with airways is the time to get there, and the price. I was quite careful to check with denham, and their prices are still right, and more discounts if i pay up front (yes, I know)
I'm a bit bothered about the circuit question at elstree so i will check. More and more it sounds like denham will be best, but only a trial lesson will tell.

Will sort something out in the next few weeks and report back if you are interested.

Ta
IPZ

[AndoniP]

Ian,

As I have mentioned before, there are 4 different circuits at Elstree, depending on the time of day and wind. This is usually rwy 26. If you are using rwy 08 (less frequent) then this is a downhill takeoff and will build up skills as the approach on finals and landing is slightly more difficult to judge. The trees to the side and on short finals to rwy 26 are good for your skills too.

If you're solo on rwy 08 you have to come to a full stop and taxi round to the beginning of the rwy, you can't do touch and goes. This will decrease the amount of TnGs you can do in an hour to about 4 due to the taxi time. I have no experience of Firecrest so their rules on this may be different.

Finally as you will have seen in your searches of Elstree, Mick in the tower can be slightly grumpy sometimes but in my opinion that only serves to improve your RT skills.

HTH

Andoni

[IanPZ]

Andoni,

My understanding from some messages I've had is that firecrest in elstree use panshanger for circuits, which means a 10 mile run before and after circuits. I guess that will probably use up 10-15 mins of each session just getting there any back. However, I'll let you know when I pop up and speak to them.

Ta

IPZ

[A and C]

I think that your trial lesson idea is a very good one, it will give you a chance to get a good look at the places, more important armed with "the gen" from this forum on the ways that some company's nickel & dime customers out of money with surcharges for this and that you will know what questions to ask.

I await your findings with interest, it will be interesting to see if Airways flying club are as wide of the mark on price as it seems on first inspection or do they just have a far more transparent pricing structure.?

Please report back it will be most helpful to others who are looking to start flying.

[AndoniP]

Ian,

Apologies, I keep forgetting you're thinking about Firecrest. Cabair (who i'm with) do circuits at Elstree, i've no idea why you'd want to fly all that way to Panshanger to do circuits instead. Cabair doesn't own the airfield as far as I am aware so i'd assume that they don't have a monopoly on local traffic...

Panshanger is a grass runway I believe, could be good for your skills, but your time spent getting there and back might be wasted slightly.

Andoni

p.s. i'd be interested to know why firecrest do their circuits up at panshanger, please keep us informed, thanks. :ok:

[IanPZ]

All,

I can't thank you all enough for your help, and I definitely will report back and let you know my experiences. I'll try and arrange some trials over the next couple of weeks, though that's a challenge as there is a bike show to go to too!

I've also thrown one more item into the mix, which is a eurostar ev97 microlight. I've discovered that exodus airsports is quite near, and as long as I can lose a couple of kilo, then thats of interest too. Not necassarily an answer, but definitely a way to start flying if the costs become an issue. Whilst I know that flying a microlight doesn't count very much towards a PPL, it does count towards an NPPL (if they still exist in a years time) and may be a cheaper way to get into the sport, even if in the long term its more expensive. I can't count flying hours towards certification, but I can count them towards fun!

I've also had some helpful responses from people who fly at elstree and denham, about what its like there.

I'll keep an eye on the thread, please do still let me know if you have any thoughts, and once I've done the trial sessions, I'll report back.

Thanks a load.....IPZ

[vorloc111]

All,

There seems to be much discussion about prices here. Personally I believe that feeling comfortable and at ease with a flying school is the MOST important factor and that price should be a secondary factor (although it's normal to think about your wallet!).

Some schools that are cheaper may not be as good custodians with your money - so you may end up paying as much or more!
Other schools may have a longer flight time to get to and from the local training area with less restrictive airspace, so you may get less valuable training time.

Hence I suggest to go and visit them ALL, then make up your mind as to which you feel to be right :ok:

[IanPZ]

vorloc111,

Thanks for that. As someone who is thinking about learning to fly, there are a whole load of things that influence me. Price, quality of training, general "feel" about instructors, distance from home etc.

The one thing I can categorically say is that I have no idea whatsover about the quality of the school, and whilst all those other things are stuff I can make a value judgement on, the quality of the school is one I can't. I don't know anything about flying, so am reliant on the opinions of others. Where price has influenced me is for things like making choices between two different schools that people tell me are as good as one another. Cos, if I can't afford to finish learning, then that needs to be a factor.

All that said, I totally agree that feel is important, and what this thread has helped me do is narrow down the number of places I will try, to get a feel. I can always add more if none of them feel quite right, but its easier to start with a choice of two or three, than to just visit everywhere and then try and make a decision when overloaded with choice (or at least, it is for me!).

So, to report back, I am arranging my first trial next week, and going to do a couple and then tell everyone how it worked out.

And thanks again for all the help. You have all been extremely informative.

All the best

IPZ

[ChasG]

IPZ - finding an instructor who you like and are comfortable with is in my view top of the list. If you try Denham book with William De Sousa who is very easy to get on with while being really passionate about flying and makes sure that you get the most from each lesson. Chas

[IanPZ]

Thanks Chas.

First trial is hopefully this weekend.....watch this space.

[IanPZ]

OK, all. Trial 1 complete. I went to a local microlight club today, to take a trial on a Eurostar. Yes, I know its not an aeroplane, but to my eyes, it sure looked like one. Anyway, I am aware that if I choose the microlight I have a long list of restrictions, but at the same time, I wanted to have a look.

So, first thing I can tell you is that......"I love flying!!!". If this is going to bore you know, please look away, cos I have to rave for a bit....

I was a bit nervous. Not about the flying, but rather about whether I would like it, hate it, or be indifferent. Its been something I've been interested in for so long that I almost didn't want to burst the bubble of "what if". But I did, and I have to admit, I am hooked.

The guy who took me up spent time explaining everything, did checks, started it up (is it really that easy?) and taxied to the end of what to me looked like an incredibly short grass strip.

Throttle in, plane accelerates, and i reckon before we were half way along the strip, we were in the air. And from pretty much that moment, I realised that however I do this, I have to learn to fly.

We had to stay sub 1200ft most of the time (clouds above), but that didn't bother me. Meant I could look at everything. We flew for about 20 mins, with the instructor talking me through what he was doing, and then he said "okay, so I'm getting a bit bored with flying now, perhaps you should have a go". GULP

We'd talked a bit about it before, and he said "lightly". Don't grip, don't move your hand, just let the stick sit in it, and when you feel pressure in one direction, just resist it a bit. Next thing I know, I'm flying! He told me not to worry about instruments for now, he would keep an eye on things. Just to use the horizon and practice looking around without moving my hands (and so turning!).

That went well. it really was easy. I assumed he was still controlling things, but no. His hands were close, but not on the stick. His feet were not on the rudder pedals (neither were mine!) and he'd trimmed it before handing over control.

Then he asked me to do some turns. Just some pressure until the plane banks, then let it centre, and hold it there in the turn. Keep an eye on the horizon, bit of back pressure so we don't lose altitude, and the next thing I know I am pointing the other way. I just absolutely loved it.....LOVED IT!!!!

He took back control, and said we would land at another strip he was permitted to use, then take off, and head back. How can a little thing like that land so lightly. He came down, flared a few inches above the runway, and to be honest I wasn't even sure he touched down until I realised we were going too slow to still be flying. Then turn around, take off again, and climb at something like 1200ft/min. What a rush!

So, I am hooked. I am heading down to Denham some time this week, and possibly Elstree next week. We did overfly Elstree (apparently, we were fine as long as we were between 2300ft and 2500ft). The runway still looked very patchy, which doesn't inspire confidence.

I'm also at the bike show in Birmingham next week, so I'm going to pop in to the flying show to look around.

Whatever way this goes forwards, it goes! If money does become the limiting factor, I know that I can afford microlighting, and the instructor was great - very confidence inspiring. Now just to look at the decision. Pilots license, or microlight.

More to follow soon. Thanks all for the help and encouragement.

IPZ

[ChasG]

Ian glad to see you enjoyed it. Having been in the eurostar I think you will be suprised just how antiquated a Cessna will seem so will be interested to hear how you get on. regards Chas

[24Carrot]

Ian, it sounds like you have got the bug!
Good luck with whatever you choose.

[IanPZ]

And then some!

[IanPZ]

Ok, so decision made for now. I popped in to Denham and Elstree in the last couple of days. So, what can I say.

Elstree, was a bit tatty, and I just ended up feeling it was a little hands off and worn out. Might suit some, but I wanted something more encouraging.

Denham, well, what can I say. The school I went in to (the pilot centre) were amazingly helpful, friendly, really made me feel at home. Told me to go wander round the planes, look inside, then come back to the office and we can run through things. (Sounds good so far, right?)

Only problem was looking in the planes. I got in a Cessna 152, and I'm afraid the only response I had was one of a bit of claustrophobia. It was dark, cramped, and just made me feel that I couldn't imagine spending 55+ hours in there. It reminded me of an old Triumph Herald. Solid, reliable, but just not a place I wanted to spend a lot of time. The Piper PA28 was much better, but still, it didn't give me the feeling of space and visibility that the little Eurostar did.

So, decision (for today) is that I am going to start off in 3 axis microlights, do a few hours (5-10) and see how I feel. It ticks all the boxes for now, and I somehow felt so much comfier in it. Best comparison was my car to my motorbike. I sit in my car, feel detached from everything, and hope there's something interesting on the radio. I sit on my motorbike and suddenly driving becomes engaging. I had the same feeling just sitting in the Cessna and the Eurostar.

However, I know that at some point, there is a good chance I will go forwards with a full PPL, and at that point, I also know I will be going to Denham to learn!

So, thanks to all the help here, thanks to the wonderful people at Denham (I will be back one day!) and for now, its the Eurostar for me.

If any one is interested, I'll post as I learn. Let you know what it's like and how I progress.

Thanks all.

IPZ

[ChasG]

Ian, apologies for missing your post. How are the eurostar lessons going? I would be interested in an update regards Chas

[IanPZ]

First lesson next Sunday....will update you then.