No IMC rating or IR - what flight rules to file for night flight to Northern Ireland

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Title pretty much says it all,

I am CPL, but may as well be considered PPL + Night Qual, and have an upcoming flight from England to Northern Ireland which will be conducted at night.

My query - in the flight plan (which I must file as crossing an FIR), what flight rules do I file under? It can't be VFR, as taking place at night. But I can't file for IFR, as I am not IMC rated and I don't hold an IR...

Along a similar vein, what would the situation be if I wanted to fly to the Republic Of Ireland, taking off at night in the UK and landing during day hours in ROI? Logic would dictate filing a 'Y' flight plan, but again, I cannot, not having the required ratings.

It seems to me that the flight itself is 100% legal but it's impossible for me to (legally) file a flight plan?

Many thanks for the help. :)

[Fuji Abound]

I think you are making the common mistake of confusing the flight rules with the met. conditions. You are probably aware that you can operate in accordance with IFR while maintaining VMC and so as long as you maintain VMC your flight is entirely legal without an IR or IMCr OCAS. You would therefore file I for IFR. A problem is if the flight starts or ends in class D or a class D transit is required then the only mechanism for achieving this at night is by requesting a SVFR transit. So far as the FP is concerned advance notification shoudl be given in box 15 indicating the transit and intended time of transit.

I guess this could be an issue because if your destination is in class D you have no way of knowing whether the SVFR segement will be granted - the fact it is on the FP guarantees nothing I would guess. A 'phone call in advance would seem to make sense or in the alternative have a non class D destination as your alternative.

Of course if you cant maintain VMC you have a problem, but then you would have a problem night or day. That said the thought of a longish sea crossing at night (possibly a dark night with an overcast) woudl be of concern to me without an IR or IMCr as you might just as well be flying on instruments or at least be assured you had the skills to do so. Second only to IMC night (and day) I think night flying has the highest risk associated.

As to the second part of your question I think, if I am correct, the answer is already apparent. It would be a Y plan with the first part legal because you can file IFR without an IR in the UK, and as long as you transition to day by or before the FIR the FP becomes a normal VFR plan. The same flight could not be conducted originating outside the UK because the rest of the world has little concept of flying IFR without an IR even in VMC - so you are stuffed!

[dublinpilot]

Your profile gives your location as Dublin. Are you attempting to do the flight from England to NI in an EI reg aircraft?

If so you will need an IR to fly under IFR, on a strict reading of the regs. Not too sure if the IAA would be bothered by that though.

dp

[wsmempson]

I thought that a UK CPL had embedded IMCR privilages?

[Johnm]

You can file Y and fly IFR at night in UK airspace and land in Ireland under VFR, it's just formality. The UK requires observance of IFR at night but permits non IR pilots to fly IFR in VMC. Most other countries will allow night VFR under stated conditions and I don't Ireland's rules off the top of my head. However, ratings or not, I wouldn't even contemplate the night flight without at least some reasonable competence on instruments.

[IO540]

Can't one file a V flight plan for a night flight in the UK?

I doubt anybody cares over here. You could stick a waypoint of Kathmandu on a V flight plan and nobody would notice. VFR flight plans are not checked for validity.

[BackPacker]

Out of curiosity, I just checked the Irish AIP, and it looks like they've got the same rule structure as the UK.

From the Irish AIP (ENR 1.2):
2.8. VFR Flights at Night
2.8.1. VFR flights at night operated in a control zone shall be operated as special VFR flights subject to a
clearance from the air traffic control unit responsible for that zone and elsewhere in accordance with the
conditions prescribed by the Authority or, in any other state, the appropriate ATS authority;
2.8.2. Special VFR flights at night authorised in a control zone may only operate to or from aerodromes or
heliports suitably equipped for night operations;
2.8.3. Flights by night outside a control zone shall be operated as IFR flights in accordance with Part IV of the
Rules in this Order unless otherwise prescribed or authorised by the Authority.

The thing I can't find though, is whether you can legally fly at night in Ireland under IFR rules (but in VMC conditions) without holding an IR. No such mention in the AIP, as far as I can see. So it looks like your flight will be impossible, legally speaking.

Not that much different in the Netherlands, by the way.

[mm_flynn]

BP

No,

Ireland Eire works like most countries other than the UK. To fly IFR you must have an IR. You can fly SVFR without an IR.

[soaringhigh650]

If you don't have an IR you must fly VFR, or SVFR for conditions less than VFR.

[dublinpilot]

mm_flynn is correct.

To fly under IFR in Ireland you need an IR.

At night the only sort of VFR that is available is SVFR, which is only available in a control zone. Not much night GA here!

dp

[chris-h]

Cant you fly VFR at night? Thats what the Night Qualification is all about?

[ShyTorque]

In UK there is no VFR at night....

Quote from CAP 393:

Choice of VFR or IFR
20 (1) Subject to paragraph (2) an aircraft shall always be flown in accordance with the Visual Flight Rules or the Instrument Flight Rules.
(2) In the United Kingdom an aircraft flying at night shall:
(a) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules outside a control zone;
(b) be flown in accordance with the Instrument Flight Rules in a control zone unless it is flying on a special VFR flight.

[dublinpilot]

Cant you fly VFR at night? Thats what the Night Qualification is all about?

Well, to a pilot in an Irish registered aircraft all the Night Qualification allows you to do is fly under SVFR, which is only available in a control zone.
It makes if interesting night cross country flights as part of the night qualification training ;) Can't exactly go very far on the cross country!

The other thing to rememeber is that the requirement for an IR to fly under IFR, applies to the pilot of an Irish registered aircraft, or any aircraft over the Irish state.

So an Irish licenced pilot flying a non Irish registered aircraft, outside the Irish state, may be able to make better use of their Night Qualification.

Whether the IAA would care about someone flying an Irish registered aircraft at night in a country such as the UK, I've no idea, but the regulations would seem to prohibit it.

With a bit of luck, this might change under EASA.....

dp

[Johnm]

With a bit of luck, this might change under EASA.....

Breath,hold, don't

[Whopity]

From JAR-FCL 1.175(b) In JAA Member States where national
legislation requires flight in accordance with IFR
under specified circumstances (e.g. at night),
the holder of a pilot licence may fly under IFR,
provided that pilot holds a qualification
appropriate to the circumstances, airspace and
flight conditions in which the flight is conducted.
National qualifications permitting pilots to fly in
accordance with IFR other than in VMC without
being the holder of a valid IR(A) shall be
restricted to use of the airspace of the State of
licence issue only.

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Many thanks for the replies so far, and my apologies for not coming back sooner.

Just to clear up a little - this flight will be undertaken in a G registered aeroplane, flying from England to NORTHERN Ireland, where the night qualification is recognised.

Really what my question was getting at may be helped if I give another example, leaving Ireland out of the equation entirely -

Say I wanted to fly (at night) from an airfield in Southern England to, for instance, Oban, assuming in this fantasy world that Oban had the required lighting installed. This crosses an FIR boundary, and would thus require a flight plan. We can now isolate whether it's legal or illegal to make the flight itself, but what would we file within the flight plan? All countries (England and Scotland) along route recognise the night qualification, so that's sorted. But what conditions exactly would you file the flight plan for, in my situation?

Or technically speaking, am I allowed to file an IFR flight plan so long as the only reason for this is persuant to the exercising of my night privileges?

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that somebody who doesn't hold an IMCR or IR may file for IFR conditions, as this is separating weather from licensing. I only bring this up as I've always been under the impression flying IFR (flight planned, in practice or otherwise), is illegal when one does not hold the additional rating(s), as by telling the enroute ATSOs you are IFR is basically telling them you are competent to follow instructions whilst in IMC, and also that you are trained in IFR letdown procedures and are competent to do so.

I stand by to be corrected, however - my understanding as it lays is based on my flying experiences to date, and this has never been a point that's reared its ugly head before!

Many thanks to all :)

[mm_flynn]

1.175 still doesn't help in Ireland. it seems to be specifically directed to the UK, where a PPL IS allowed to fly IFR. Almost everywhere else a PPL IS NOT allowed to fly IFR.


I believe FCL 1.175 does however allow a night qualified Irish PPL to fly at night in the UK.

The UK's night IFR rule is one of the most barking rules ever dreamed up!

[mm_flynn]

Further comment to HB

You do not need to file a flight plan across that particular FIR boundary, in general it is only flights across an international FIR that require one.

However, if you were flyi g from France to the UK at night, yes you would file a mikes fligtplan with the IFR transition at the FIR. And yes the French will reject a straight VFR plan. To my knowledge there is nothing at all that forbids a UK PPL from filing an IFR flight plan, after all they are allowed to fly IFR after all! So long as the plan complies with licence limits (I.e. Doesn't enter controlled airspace and doesn't have you IFR outside the UK)

[Fuji Abound]

Halfbacked Boy

Somebody mentioned in an earlier post that somebody who doesn't hold an IMCR or IR may file for IFR conditions, as this is separating weather from licensing. I only bring this up as I've always been under the impression flying IFR (flight planned, in practice or otherwise), is illegal when one does not hold the additional rating(s), as by telling the enroute ATSOs you are IFR is basically telling them you are competent to follow instructions whilst in IMC, and also that you are trained in IFR letdown procedures and are competent to do so.

See my first answer.

In the UK ANYONE can fly / file IFR OCAS, what you cant do is enter IMC, it is that simple. Yes, you are saying that you will abide by instrument flight rules BUT you cannot enter IMC so if you were given vectors into IMC you must decline.

What ATSOs may think is a matter for them - I suspect some fully understand the position - however if it is apparent they dont you should indicate that you cannot accept instructions which would mean you were not in VMC and you cannot accept and IAP. I see not reason why you should not say "I am IFR but wishing to maintain VMC".

Practically you are only ever likely to be given isntructions when inside a control zone (class D) and while there are a few IAPs outside class D these are few and far between. Inside class D your clearance will be SVFR (see before) so the ATSOs will know that you wish to maintain VMC.

Does that make sense?

[soaringhigh650]

I don't understand what is so complicated about all this.
This is international practice:

IFR - If you have an IR
File flight plan, takeoff, SID, airway, STAR, IAP, land.

VFR
Optionally file flight plan, takeoff, fly visually, land.

Is the UK just being a bit different?

[IO540]

I suspect the UK system, where a plain PPL is able to fly IFR if the actual conditions are VMC, was done that way to enable night flight.

In the UK, night=IFR so some kind of hack was needed to enable a PPL to fly at night.

I have no idea why night=IFR in the UK.

(to be fair, a real dark night is in effect IMC and therefore by definition IFR, but let's not go there because a plain PPL is allowed to fly at night in most places ;) )

[Fuji Abound]

Soaringhigh

You are confusing things again! :)

The world is pretty much the same.

IFR - says nothing about the met conditions, it is simply a set of rules. You can be in VMC or IMC. That is true the world over.

VFR - is also simply a set of rules, but it also tells us about the met conditions - you cant be flying to VFR but in IMC.

In the UK, sensibly, the position has always been without an IR you can fly according to IFR in VMC. The so called vanilla PPL (one without any other ratings) could depart Southampton and fly to Glasgow declaring himself to be IFR the whole way as long as he maintained VMC and the flight was conducted OCAS.

We have already been through this in earlier posts - nearly every where else you need an IR to operate IFR whether or not you are maintaining VMC. That is the way it is, but NOT in the UK.

If you fly in the UK you need to know this -or at least it is worth while getting to grips with it.

In the same way in the UK at night you cant be operating to VFR even if the conditions are VMC. However if the conditions are VMC you can fly at night using IFR without an IR.

While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.

All this possibly begs the question of why would a vanilla PPL "file" IFR. Well, he has no alternative if he wishes to fly at night (which was the point of this thread). However there is also a purpose during the day. If you are about the transition altitude by flying according to IFR it tells everyone that you will being obeying the rules rather than just opting for any old level that takes your fancy. That might not be such a bad thing.

[pilotincommand]

Fuji Abound

Just a small point. VFR-on-top is perfectly legal in the UK. The licence condition that prevents it is a totally different issue. If you're flying on an FAA licence, for example, it's not a problem.

[mm_flynn]

Soaringhigh

You are confusing things again! :)

The world is pretty much the same.

IFR - says nothing about the met conditions, it is simply a set of rules. You can be in VMC or IMC. That is true the world over.

The world is not the same. The UK is AIUI unique in both allowing PPLs to fly IFR and defining IFR (in the context a PPL could undertake it) effectively the same as VFR.

I know in the detail of your post you get to the UK rules. But as a headline the UK has an exceptionally unusual approach to IFR.

[soaringhigh650]

Fuji Abound - thanks for that info.

I appreciate the rules are different. But...

All this possibly begs the question of why would a vanilla PPL "file" IFR. Well, he has no alternative if he wishes to fly at night (which was the point of this thread). However there is also a purpose during the day.

There would be no point for a vanilla PPL to "file" IFR if night VFR was allowed in the UK, and if it had VFR cruising levels

[jollyrog]

Hmmm... night flying in Ireland has one obvious drawback, which I haven't cracked yet. What's your alternate and how do you get there legally?

It's very nice though. You have the sky to yourself :-)

[Fuji Abound]

Pilotincommand

We were discussing a UK pilot, flying a G reg aircraft - that was the context.

Mm-flynn

Again in context my text was directed at the world being the same in what is meant by IFR and VFR in relation to flight rules and met conditions. I agree the UK is exceptional in the way they depart from who may do what when.

Soaringhigh650

Correct, but within the context of the rules these are the only advantages of which I can think.

[pilotincommand]

Fuji Abound

The comment I made is valid in a G-reg. It is also valid for a UK pilot provided they have a licence that allows it, so a UK pilot that has an FAA licence, or any other licence that doesn't have an "in sight of the surface" restriction, can happily fly VFR-on-top in the UK and in a G-reg.

That may well change with EASA but that's another story.

[Fuji Abound]

Agreed - but not on a UK CAA license. Can he do so on a 61.75 - I guess not. On a stand alone FAA, a JAA without the in sight restriction etc I agree its not an issue. We (the UK and CAA) are probably one of the few to not recognise the concept of VFR on top.

While we are at it, the UK also has no concept of VFR on top. It doesnt exist. If you are on top of a solid undercast you must be IFR even if the conditions are 50K wall to wall blue. Moreover if you are an old CAA vanilla PPL you shouldnt be there because you cant see the gorund. If you had a French vanilla PPL then you could.

As to my original comment it was badly worded. I meant that in the UK for a UK CAA pilot there is no concept of VFR on top because that implies a vanilla UK PPL flying above a solid undercast VFR. Even if he got their legally the flight becomes strictly illegal as soon as he can longer see the surface. As I said I agree a FAA vanilla PPL could call VFR on top as could a CAA IR pilot. In the first instance this is a common call to hear in the States in the second instance I suspect the pilot would simply say he is VFR or IFR (pretty much as the mood took) because it is irrelevant to him and the controller if their is a solid undercast beneath.

In other words to me, rightly or wrongly, VFR on top implies I am here because I dont have an IR but I can maintain VMC above the tops.

[mm_flynn]

Fuji

"Vfr on top" as used on the radio in the US is actually a form of IFR clearance (just as "cleared for the visual approach" is).

However flying VFR above a cloud deck is just VFR. VFR in all countries (that allow VFR) includes flying above an overcast. The UK CAA recognize this just like everyone else. The only difference is that they say a UK PPL is not allowed to do this.

[Fuji Abound]

OK - point taken vfr on top or vfr over the top, but in the UK the call I have heard is VFR on top and the rest of Europe thinks in terms of their being VFR on top - presumably meaning I am in vmc above a cloud base. I have never heard VFR over the top in the UK.

[IO540]

In Europe you just say "VFR"; forget about reporting any cloud below you.

All that ATC cares about is whether you are VFR or IFR because that determines the separation rules etc. They can't see you; most of them don't even have a window... and the wx outside their hut could be BKN002.

Occassionally, if they smell a rat, they will say "G-XXXX confirm you are VMC" so you reply "Affirm".

I have flown VMC on top to the further corners of Europe, pre-IR. In fact all my long VFR trips (http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/index.html) would have been impossible without VMC on top. Or, at least, they would have taken much longer, with shorter legs etc. To potter along below the cloud for any real distance, you would need to be retired :)

[S-Works]

I thought that a UK CPL had embedded IMCR privilages?

Old UK CAA PPL not JAA.

[Whopity]

In UK there is no VFR at night....Unless you are Military!I suspect the UK system, where a plain PPL is able to fly IFR if the actual conditions are VMC, was done that way to enable night flight.The original PPL pre 1960s had no restriction to flying in cloud (IMC). That Restriction was added together with the requirement to remain in sight of the surface. At the same time a new rating was introduced to allow "qualified" pilots to get around the new "Restrictions" It later became known as the IMC rating. The "Restriction" was never applied to UK commercial licences, hence the inbuilt privileges. A revamp of the initial IMC rating provided an additional privilege that was not included in a commercial licence hence; it stated that the CPL also included the privilegs of a UK IMC rating.
IFR is simply compliance with two Rules:(2) For flights outside controlled airspace rules 33 and 34 shall be the Instrument Flight
Rules.The minimum height rule and the quadrantal rule! If you read them carefully you will note that unless you are above 3000 feet, neither apply!

Holders of a JAA PPL, CPL and ATPL are subject to the provisions of JAR-FCL 1.175;(2) The licence is subject to the conditions and restrictions specified in paragraph 1.175 of Section 1 of JAR–FCL 1. There is no such restriction on a UK National licence.