Merged: Senate Inquiry

[Mr. Hat]

Forgive them lookleft.:ouch:

They've been subject to the modern Australia and its combination of pathetically inept, corrupt and amateur system that does nothing but steal from its citizens every minute of every day.

I do have one hope:

Senator Xenophon is a bit different. It's nearly like he's not from around here. Very sharp. He's got multiple enquiries on but have a look at the content of his questions. He's clearly extremely bright and not one to be swayed by the "chairmans lounge". There is no way he could be Prime Minister, he makes too much sense and we have too many morons amongst us.

I'm all for the Ben Sandilands style commentary or the old 60 minutes/4 Corners/Investigators. I'm all for a spade being called a spade and the do gooders to be done away with. There just ain't enough of it in this place

[Keg]

Just to back up Hat's comments. I had Sen X on board one day SYD-ADL. I was at the front door as the pax were getting off and saw this familiar looking bloke get off. He gave me a nod and I nodded back and only then realised it was him. I chased after him and we had a 5-10 minute chat at the top of the aerobridge.

During the discussion I elicited from him that he normally travels economy as he doesn't feel that the SYD-ADL sector in J class delivers value for money for the taxpayer. I was impressed at that given I know how much many of the pollies (and other senior people in various government departments) like their perks.

I've been even more impressed with him in terms of how he's performed in this inquiry.

[The Kelpie]

Who is selling the Popcorn?

[galdian]

Over-ripe tomatoes might be more appropriate :}

[The Green Goblin]

It would be a crackup if someone threw a shoe at them :E

[denabol]

Handbrake,

It's tomorrow not Friday.

Senate Inquiry forces Jetstar to make changes – Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2011/03/30/senate-inquiry-forces-jetstar-to-make-changes/)

[The Kelpie]

2 hours for Alan and Bruce in the chair is a long one!!

Lets get to the facts Bruce!!!

[PW1830]

Would hope all pilots supporting Ben Sandilands by subscribing to Crikey - worth every penny.

[blow.n.gasket]

I notice on the Hearing Program, one Ms Monique Neetson'Lemkes
on at 12.15pm.
Is she the FAAA Jetstar "Team" (hate that term) co-ordinator?
If so, I wonder what will be bought up?
Any mention of the Thai Flight attendants (Crew?Team?whatever!)
Their pay, their ability to legally work in Australia, their guest worker status, their lengths of duty,their english language abilities, etc,etc.

[killa loop]

Any truth to the rumour that a certain HR manager at Jetstar has been fired over the botched cadet scheme??

Yes I believe so! TN is gone.

[blow.n.gasket]

Silly me,
I always thought that what happened after management incompetence in JetStar was caught out, the responsible incompetent was parachuted into a nice cushy job in Qantas.:E

[The Kelpie]

Any truth to the rumour that a certain HR manager at Jetstar has been fired over the botched cadet scheme

Yes, and quite right too!!!

Remember, if the boss gets a beating - Sh1t falls down the way!!!!

What happenned to KA, the exec HR manager in Jetstar??

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

Any truth to the rumour that a certain HR manager at Jetstar has been fired over the botched cadet scheme??


Why would Jetstar fire the individual while the spotlight is still focussed on the cadet scheme at the Senate Inquiry?

Would the Senators see this as evidence the scheme was botched?

Surely the decision to start the scheme goes to a higher level of management than HR.

MC

[The Kelpie]

Mstr Caution

Surely the decision to start the scheme goes to a higher level of management than HR

Yes it does!! But here are the 5 stages of a project from my own management by experience manual:


1. Euphoria and Excitement [Cadet program Launch]
2. Disenchantment [Bruce gets busted by the X man]
3. Search for the Guilty [Internal search for who to blame]
4. Punishment of the Innocent [TN Gets the bullet]
5. Reward for the Uninvolved [Brucey Bonus issued for damage limitation]

[The Green Goblin]

Mstr Caution

Quote:
Surely the decision to start the scheme goes to a higher level of management than HR
Yes it does!! But here are the 5 stages of a project from my own management by experience manual:

Quote:
1. Euphoria and Excitement [Cadet program Launch]
2. Disenchantment [Bruce gets busted by the X man]
3. Search for the Guilty [Internal search for who to blame]
4. Punishment of the Innocent [TN Gets the bullet]
5. Reward for the Uninvolved [Brucey Bonus issued for damage limitation]

And now BB and AJ can float into the enquiry, say that they have assessed the business, were given flawed advice and have fixed the problem.

Problem is, you are still trying to undermine an industrial instrument AKA the EBA! There will be egg on Gillards face if this is not dealt with promptly.

Why is it not in the news headlines? "Qantas undermines Australian workers conditions, by employing staff via shelf company"

It's enough to make you sick.

[rodchucker]

Kelpie,

Spot on.

There are many precedents of such events where those truly responsible and faced with an overwhelming force are heard to mumble as they enter the chamber....I am truly sorry for the acts of a relatively junior and inexperienced manager who was acting without authority and I have now rectified the situation.

Senators don't fall for it, there is no way that these events were not orchestrated by the highest levels of management and the Rat sanction.

For those who witness the events tomorrow and hear these words keep mumbling to yourself ...bull****.......

[FlareArmed]

Would hope all pilots supporting Ben Sandilands by subscribing to Crikey - worth every penny.

Good point – I just subscribed.

Great work, Ben.

[mcgrath50]

Is anyone able to record the hearing tomorrow? At least the Qantas bit would be good.

[Mr. Hat]

Keg, I'm jealous. Senator Xenophon enjoys popstar/cult status in the Hat household. I was a fan well before he cast his eye on our industry.

I fear however that he can't do it all on his own. Its an unstoppable machine this country of corruption and ineptitude. If integrity, transparency and ethics were introduced in Australia the whole place would grind to an almighty hault.

[killa loop]

Why is it not in the news headlines? "Qantas undermines Australian workers conditions, by employing staff via shelf company"

Why?
I suggest because Qantas/Jetstar through their commercial agreements with the mainstream media, ensure that negative coverage is censored under with the threat of advertising budgets.

Channel 7
Channel 9
the Australian

With politicians receiving iPads and other key individuals receiving Chairman's lounge invites, it's no wonder things have gotten this bad!

Go Ben Sandilands! Men like he and the X-Man are a couple of the custodians of the future of this industry through the senate inquiry.

[astroboy55]

slight thread drift..sorry..but if Sandilands article is true (the part that mentions the possible Joyce replacement), then its time this was made available in the media again....

Inquiry into first-class footsies - Travel - smh.com.au (http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/qantas-inquiry-into-firstclass-footsies/2007/07/30/1185647827101.html)

My bold



Inquiry into first-class footsies

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Ben Cubby
July 31, 2007
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A SENIOR Jetstar executive has been accused of engaging in 'funny business" with a woman on a fold-down seat in the first-class cabin of a flight from Melbourne to Los Angeles on Friday.

Bruce Buchanan, the airline's commercial general manager, was on Qantas Flight 93 to the US when the incident allegedly took place. After the lights went down on the 14-hour trip, a woman apparently moved to share his seat.

Another first-class passenger complained to a flight attendant, according to people in the cabin at the time.

Sources on the flight said it was not clear what was going on but there was no suggestion the pair were having sex. "It was just funny business," one source said.

It is unclear whether cuddling constitutes a breach of strict behavioural guidelines which apply to airline employees but the incident was enough for staff on the flight to prepare a report for Qantas management.

It raises questions about the behaviour of Jetstar employees, including senior executives such as Mr Buchanan, travelling on discounted staff flights.

Staff must wear "appropriate" clothes, not jeans, and show exemplary behaviour.

Last week Qantas, the parent company of Jetstar, was forced to reinstate a cabin supervisor sacked for breaching policy by taking chocolate-covered macadamia nuts from a flight.

The cabin steward, Philip Woodward-Brown, had been stood down immediately after the offending nuts were discovered on his person during a routine security check in Tokyo last year.

When the incident took place on Friday, Mr Buchanan was travelling to Los Angeles for a holiday.

A Jetstar spokesman confirmed last night the incident was being investigated but said the airline was yet to speak to Mr Buchanan about the complaint.

"We do not believe the event was of a serious nature. A full investigation will take place but we obviously want to hear Mr Buchanan's side of the story," the spokesman said.

Qantas also confirmed that it was investigating the incident but said it did not appear to be a serious offence.

Mr Buchanan, who could not be reached for comment, is due back from his holiday next week.



From my understanding, the CSM prepared a report, of which another crew member took a copy. The CSM was met by company security on arrival and was escorted from the aircraft, had the report confiscated, and was told in no uncertain terms, that this was never to be raised again. Can anyone with more knowledge expand??

[Mr. Hat]

I suggest because Qantas/Jetstar through their commercial agreements with the mainstream media, ensure that negative coverage is censored under with the threat of advertising budgets.

Warm, warmer..Bingo.

You know how we all pity those in the middle east with their governments controlling the media? Guess what..

[Mr. Hat]

Sources on the flight said it was not clear what was going on but there was no suggestion the pair were having sex. "It was just funny business," one source said.

A class act.

[Keg]

Ever since the episode of Bruce Buchanan and the alleged hanky panky I've kept it in my back pocket as a counter argument if ever someone tries to go me for something I've done wrong. I'd suggest that just about every action short of physically punching someone can now be over looked with the precedent that has been set with Bruce.

As you say Hat, a class act that one!

[John Citizen]

Is the enquiry this Thursday or Friday ?

[Lookleft]

JC is that double irony because the hearing is tomorrow March 31! I'm hoping that tomorrow will be the last day of hearings so that the report can be tabled. This has gone way past what was originally intended but for very good reason. As for those who think that it won't change anything, it already has and has cost one J* exec his job. Of course it won't necessarily get rid of the person responsible for this fetid corporate culture but a start has to be made somewhere and at the very least will demonstrate to the HR department that they are accountable for their decisions.

[High_To_Low]

So...if it all turns to sh*t and the JQ cadets are stood down will that open up avenues for all the guys on the hold file that have been waiting for up to a year??

[The Kelpie]

Probably not. They will just retrench from some of the scaled down services from Christchurch and japan runs!!

[Mr. Hat]

I still don't get why you would wait to get a job there when there have been 200,000 posts in 6 months on that very company.

[Mstr Caution]

at the very least will demonstrate to the HR department that they are accountable for their decisions.

Wouldn't those in HR just be screening / interviewing & selecting candidates, then getting the candidates to the sign contracts that are provided to the HR department?

Wouldn't Flt Ops, IR or Legal department be actually writing up the said employment contracts?

[The Kelpie]

Cadet recruitment other than final interview outsourced to Oxford / CTC!!!

Contracts obviously written by crafty lawyers (probably outsourced too!!)

[Icarus2001]

I still don't get why you would wait to get a job there when there have been 200,000 posts in 6 months on that very company.

I agree but the only conclusion to draw is that it is still attractive as a career to those with perhaps a narrower view of how the world works. As long as that is the case management will continue to try to save money. This whole thing (cadets) is an experiment, if it works it will become the norm.

I don't understand why people smoke but they do.

[Spotl]

For those interested, the Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety for Thursday 31 March 2011 can be seen on FOXTEL (APAC Channel). So, if you have FOXTEL and want to sit back and watch it on TV (record it, if you have the facility), instead of watching on a computer - that's the way to go! It commences at 0900 AEST

[KRUSTY 34]

Just logged on to the APH feed. Unable to attend in person today :{, but looking forward to it all the same. The screen is offset somewhat! Hope they fix it up prior to the main event. Don't want to miss any facial expressions from the main protagonists! :E

I noticed JG will be there. Not surprising as he was the Jetstar head of safety at the time of the 2007 Melb Go-around incident. After that he was promoted to QF Head of safety! Funny old World?

Armchairs and popcorn folks.

[The Kelpie]

Enjoy folks!!!

[tryhard1]

Do These broadcasts start late or is my computer playing up?

[Oldmate]

I'm not getting anything through yet :confused:

[Oldmate]

Its on now!

[Flt.Lt Zed]

What is the website for us in NZ?

[Up-into-the-air]

Parliament of Australia (http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/mediaplayer.aspx?mediaURL=http://webcast.aph.gov.au/livebroadcasting/asx1/hms9v_40K.asx&CaptionFile=&CaptionTitle=Rural%20Affairs%20and%20Transport%20References% 20Committee%20%28Pilot%20training,%20airline%20safety%20and% 20the%20Transport%20Safety%20Investigation%20Amendment%20%28 Incident%20Reports%29%20Bill%202010;%20Science%20underpinnin g%20the%20inability%20to%20eradicate%20the%20Asian%20honey%2 0bee%29%20%28HMS%209%29%20//n//r%20Thursday,%2031%20March%202011%209:00%20AM%20-%203:00%20PM&type=1)

[Handbrake]

Is anyone aware of any media presence at the Inquiry?

[ThePaperBoy]

Cabin crew only work on average 27 hours a week? That doesn't sound right.

A case of making the numbers suit one's argument?

[zappalin]

Jetstar has 'casual' cabin crew don't they? Could this skew the figure?

[ThePaperBoy]

That's what I was thinking.

Employee A works 6 hours a week, employee B works 48. Still averages 27 hours a week.

I would be irked if I was cabin crew and heard the CEO say I 'only' worked 27 hours a week. The whole CC argument seemed to be swept under the rug after that.

Tag flights now, hopefully this is going where I think it is...

[killa loop]

Buchanan seems to refer quite heavily to average statistics. As has been stated before.

Quite disappointing to hear Heffernan watering down a lot of the concerns.

I sincerely hope that something comes of this - if not then it will ake an accident to being about change.

[waren9]

Bit disappointed to be honest.

Despite the length of time since the last hearing, the Senators questions today dont seem to be particularly searching.

Buchanan and Joyce are being allowed to regurgitate the same old mantras.

[zappalin]

Quite disappointing to hear Heffernan watering down a lot of the concerns.

What did he say about some pilots reporting feeling fatigued again? Something about 'whiners' being in any industry or workplace... Can't remember it exactly but something like that.

[The Kelpie]

DOn't worry guys, the Senators know when they are being taken a lend of!!

The questions were clearly to get on record some key statements.

They have not heard the end of some of the issues!!

The days of the international tag flight are numbered!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

The questions were clearly to get on record some key statements.



It is now on the record that no pilot with less than 500 hours operated an RPT aircraft in NZ.

[The Kelpie]

Mstr Caution

That was the only cadet who had over 500 hours by way of going through the Advanced programme.

gotta go started again!!

[Bagot_Community_Locator]

$36K for a Singaporean Flight attendant ?

Sounds a bit much for me ? :eek:

$87K for cadets in Australia ?
$67-71K for cadets in NZ ?

I suppose if they do max hours (above the min. quota as Bruce was trying to say)they might get this much ???? Is this possible ?

[rodchucker]

Kelpie,

Hope you are right.

There were many key issues that on my take questions were less than probing or reflective of previous evidence provided.

Non more so than this whole NZ cadet scheme seems to have left unresolved when there was ample opportunity to drag out the truth. Maybe I missed it.

The pattern of conduct re Tag flights seemed to be the only issue to get some traction and Rat management just held the line.

I am getting bored and with less hope of any meaningful outcome so think I will go fishing.

Hope I am wrong.

[Mr. Hat]

An Article from "The Australian" by Ben Packham:

Toughen up, tired Jetstar pilots told | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/toughen-up-tired-jetstar-pilots-told/story-e6frg95x-1226031265408)

Ben Packham From: The Australian March 31, 2011 11:22AM

A SENIOR Jetstar manager told pilots to "toughen up princesses" after complaints about fatigue on the budget airline's Perth to Singapore route.

The instruction was contained in an email admonishing the airline's pilots, tabled in a Senate committee hearing today in which Qantas and Jetstar executives were questioned about safety standards.

In it, pilots were told: "Aeroplanes don't make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying".

The email opened with the warning: "If you are easily offended then delete this email and read no further. Toughen up princesses! You aren't fatigued, you are tired and can't be bothered going to work."

However the author, a Perth-based pilot manager, admitted that overnight flights on the Perth to Singapore route were a "horror shift".

The pilot manager acknowledged in the email that when he flew the shift, he operated below his normal standards.

"By trial and error, I have worked out what works for me so I can manage the shift," he said.

"I can say I hate the shift and I definitely don't operate to my normal standard. I am tired throughout the shift, feel terrible, but I would not call it fatigued."

He concludes the email by saying he was not speaking as a base pilot, but "as a pilot who hasn't lost touch with reality and who wants to make this Perth base work".

Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce said the surprise tabling of the email, by South Australian independent Senator Nick Xenophon, made it difficult for management to respond properly to the issues raised about its airline subsidiary.

He said it was in the airline's interests to hear safety complaints, but those with information should go through the proper channels.

"That document should be sent to the regulator for the regulator to have a look at it," Mr Joyce said.

"That's what should be happening with the process. And we are very happy to cooperate with the regulators - we do - to have a look at these issues when they arise."

Jetstar chief executive Bruce Buchanan said there was an incorrect perception the airline pushed its crews to the limit.

“Our pilots are working on average, 18 hours flying a week, where you have a compliance maximum of 25 hours a week,'' he told the Senate's rural affairs and transport committee.

“I look at the averages of worked hours across all the bases and I can't see any of them getting close to the limits at the moment.''

Senator Xenophon said the email raised serious concerns over safety and the management culture at Jetstar.

“Fatigue is a serious issue and can have an impact on the ability for pilots and crews to effectively navigate a plane,'' he said.

"The intimidation in this email is alarming and indicates that there may be a bullying culture among pilots.''

But Mr Joyce said he was concerned the email was being taken out of context.

"I'm worried about this note that we've got now from a pilot, that this is not a misrepresentation.'' he said.

Mr Joyce said the Qantas group took a comprehensive approach to fatigue management to ensure pilots were fresh and ready to fly.

But he said pilots also had a duty to manage their own levels of tiredness.

"It's up to the pilot to identify ... if he's not comfortable and shouldn't be flying. And we rely on that as well as the system,'' he said.

and read The Email in full:

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/03/31/1226031/270701-jetstar-email.pdf

Great culture.

[The Kelpie]

In Camera now!!

Seems that Jetstar may have fudged the report on the Darwin windshear incident in their clarification to the ATSB!! or should I say economical with the truth!!

Also just speculation, but I wonder whether the pilot in the Darwin incident was invited in for a meeting just like Joe Eakins and asked to pen that letter that Buchanan had at his disposal dissenting the statements made by Captain Richard Woodward at the last hearing?

That FDR is getting pulled - mark my words!!!

[Mr. Hat]

I haven't had the chance to tune in today. All I can say is this:

If certain/some of the Senators perception is that its all a case of whining pilots/cabin crew then best they wrap it up ASAP and stop wasting peoples time. As far as I'm concerned let the industry continue to run its course as it has been for decades. Let foreign FO's with 200 hours sit in the RHS, let the BOC and the B scales roll on.

Experienced pilots will take their skills to another country or industry: Problem solved. There's more than one way to make a dollar you know. It's not like jail where you can't leave.

If you're going to be doing BOC for the rest of your life might as well do it full service where the entire business model isn't based on cost cutting:

EMIRATES ROAD SHOW

Perth
1st April 10am
Duxton Hotel
1 St Georges Terrace, Perth, WA

Melbourne
3rd April 10am
Hilton On The Park
192 Wellington Parade, East Melbourne, VIC
　
Auckland
5th April 10am
Pullman Auckland
Cnr Waterloo Quadrant & Princes St
Auckland City, New Zealand 　

Brisbane
6th April 10am
Hilton Brisbane
190 Elizabeth St, Brisbane, QLD
　
Sydney
7th April 2pm
Hilton Sydney,
488 George St, Sydney, NSW

Yeah I know the heat, the sand. Well, toughen up princess!

[The Kelpie]

c173

In camera means 'in private' as it may well involve discussion not for the public ears yet or information of a commercial or embarrassing nature for the Government.

Kelpie

[Mstr Caution]

Like in a legal sense, a "private meeting in Chambers"

[DirectAnywhere]

I cannot believe that any manager - essentially what a base pilot is - would be foolish enough to put something like that in writing.

If the author is still the base pilot, I shall be interested to see how long that remains the status quo.

Truly astonishing.

http://resources.news.com.au/files/2011/03/31/1226031/270701-jetstar-email.pdf

[Mr. Hat]

The Flight Attendant speaking at the moment is airing the industries dirty washing. Time for a reality check for joe public..:eek:

[Speed Seeker]

So - who's the princess pilot who was stupid enough to write an email like that reported?

Is this a classic case of the sort of DH airlines traditionally place in pilot mamagement?

I suspect so.

The list continues.:D

[rodchucker]

Yeah and she has just contradicted Buchanans evidence on reasons for reduction in cabin staff training big time.

[myshoutcaptain]

Heff's closing remarks on conclusion of the hearing

"hhmm we'll see what happens"
:ok:

[hotnhigh]

Listening today just gave a clear indication of the corporate culture that oozes from the top down.

[waren9]

I cannot believe that any manager - essentially what a base pilot is - would be foolish enough to put something like that in writing.


Dumb move, especially if he used his company email addr to do so.

Im betting the base pilot is just trying avoid giving the company anymore reasons to close the base. Anyone else know if management has told them to "toe the line, or else..."?

[The Kelpie]

http://resources2.news.com.au/images/2011/03/31/1226031/310190-jetstar.jpg
Not your best angle Alan. You are looking a bit stressed. What is on your mind?

That look Priceless!!

Big difference to this one when the Senate Inquiry was announced

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/files/2010/01/AirAsia-and-JetStar-affiliation-Sydney-06Jan2010-022a-600x399.jpg

[Mr. Hat]

Ah yes Kelpie the second one is my personal favourite. Thats the sort of laugh you get when you know you've got the government onside. You can't lose.

Today's hearing highlights inadequacies of certain "managers" in Airlines. Such is the importance of the role that it might require a some minimum standards of tertiary education.

Food for thought isn't it. Afterall its hardly like a management position at you local tavern is it now?


Now lets make those smiles go away...


http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201103/r728051_5843789.jpg

[gobbledock]

Alan is looking a little tubby around the face these days, perhaps QF will pay for some gym membership for him ? As for Boston Bruce, well I like the Kirk Douglas chin he sports, very manly.
But seriously, the two different pictures depict two different points in time. Picture 1 depicts two guys in charge of a never ending gravy train while Picture 2 depicts two guys who have had their oyster turned inside out and upside down.

[Capn Bloggs]

Such is the importance of the role that it might require a some minimum standards of tertiary education.

"I've got a degree in Underwater basketweaving. I'd be an excellent aviation manager". Caution what you wish for, Hat. :uhoh:

[Mr. Hat]

No need to wish, look like we've already got good quality people steering the ship haven't we?

[Dropt McGutz]

Better get your comments in on this link Tired Jetstar pilots told to 'toughen up' and keep flying, inquiry hears | Herald Sun (http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/more-news/tired-jetstar-pilots-told-to-toughen-up-and-keep-flying-inquiry-hears/comments-fn7x8me2-1226031311657)
Not much sympathy amongst the uneducated public.

[Artificial Horizon]

Wow, those comments just cement to me that the public have little or no understanding what is involved in our jobs. This is why I have given up telling people what I do because no matter how much you tell them otherwise they can't get over the whole 'you just push the autopilot button' and 'don't you only work 80 hours per month!!, I work 40 hours per week!!'. :ugh::ugh:

I especially like the comment about Air New Zealand longhaul pilots and the fact that they fly 12 hour sectors and don't complain like these Jetstar princesses that only do 5 hour sectors :ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Take note Qantas pilots, I would say that public support for a strike may not be on your side. :{:{

[SOPS]

For those of you old enough to remember....in that year we cant talk about....the claims were exactly the same, "Pilots only fly 7 hours a week..bla bla bla" and the public believed it and they will believe it again...and again...and again:ugh:

[BlueYonder10]

Not sure if this episode has aired in OZ yet, but if the public thinks that pilot fatigue is not a problem they should have a look at this episode about Colgan Air 3407. YouTube - Air Crash Investigation - Stalled In The Sky

[Mr. Hat]

Yeah but does Senator Xenophon see it that way? Couldn't care less what joe public thinks. My job is A-B in one piece.

Watch them all cry when it inevitably goes wrong.

[Mr. Hat]

Done my bit put my reply on there "the Australian".

[rodchucker]

Am surprised there are no compliments flowing her way tonight.

Dont know, never met her and probably never will and that is fine.

What she did today was articulate, well focussed and gutsy given the personal risks.

Well done for taking a stand.

[stubby jumbo]

.....'just saw her on Sky News.

What a legend !!:D

When asked by Xenophon -"how would you describe the current culture at JQ?"

She replied:

"TOXIC"

The Leprechaun and BB will not be happy.

All that work spinning the 4 corners story to be a positive-GONE:{

The veneer is wearing very ,very thin.

What you sow ....you shall reap.

CLOWNS

[Sarcs]

"TOUGHEN UP PRINCESSES"::='Priceless!!!'

[LeadSled]

Folks,
The bit that I loved was Joyce explaining why the Jetstar training was to a different standard to QF mainline, it will be worth looking it up in the transcript.

Words to the effect that Jetstar flies different aircraft on different routes, so, of course the training has to be different.

Not a word about not polluting the jetstar cilture with any QF input, we will never forget that gem from the then boss of Jetstar.

Tootle pip!!

[WynSock]

All those concerned passengers who write in saying how terrible for JQ to errode safety...Have a glass of concrete and harden the :mad: up!

What's the chance of you or your closest family members actually being onboard when a bleary-eyed Airbus crew spears in? Close to zero.

100% safety costs a great deal more than you think. I'll take my chances with 99% safe or whatever it is so can get from the Goldie to Sydney for 49 bucks. That is a great fare! Forty-Nine dollars.

Princesses!
:{

[Capt_SNAFU]

With regards to the harden up over PER-SIN-PER BOC perhaps the senators should ask JQ why QF stopped PER-CGK-PER BOC on the 737 some years ago? A very similar tour. Perhaps because it was deemed unsafe, considering the number of errors that occured on these flights and also on the flights on the following days due to having flown that sector.

[Lookleft]

If my memory serves me correctly the crew that did not put the CTP on the 737 from Per to Syd had done the CGK BOC the night before. Fatigue was considered to be a contributing factor. It was also considered to be a CF in the 737 EGPWS event near CB in 2005. I'm sure the public would love to know that the "princesses" up front are legally allowed to sleep in the cockpit just to try and mitigate the potential for a disaster at the end of the duty.

[The Kelpie]

Came across this as again the media seem to have been nobbled and the matter hushed up!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSVZDUS_QtE

Bullying aside, Watching the Colgan Air Air Crash episode posted earlier it is absolutely frightening to be able to draw similarities with the way the Australian aviation industry is becoming more similar and perhaps we should consider it a warning:

Eg. A regional carrier painted in the colours of and having tickets sold by national carriers

Fatigue and poor conditions

Base commuting

Stick shaker events on Q400 caused by increased ref switch

As Senator H said we will see what happens, although I think an increase in hours is on the cards to correspond with, as a minimum that imposed in New Zealand at 500 hours.


........and now we wait.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[The Kelpie]

I have a favor to ask:

Can someone please post a list of all Jetstar international tag flights (flight nr and route) with domestic sectors that use foreign crew (flight or cabin) from Singapore and bangkok.

I have a letter to Immigration Minister Chris Bowen all ready to go following evidence given at the hearing yesterday.

Cheers

The Kelpie

[breakfastburrito]

Senate Inquiry Day 4 Audio has its own thread (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/447449-senate-inquiry-day-4-audio.html)

[Artificial Horizon]

Yep, this is a woefully bad part of NZ legislation. We have made progress on this issue though and there is a 'sick' leave pool that is available to top up these 5 days if needed and we also now have up to 90 days available for one off longterm illnesses.

[hotnhigh]

Interesting way the questioning of how the nz cadets are being utilized and integrated into the Australian op was answered. I certainly was none the wiser after hearing the response. Does anyone know what contract they are on? Shane Warne would have been proud of Bruce's answer with the amount of tweak he imposed on it.
Still though it's great to see the Qantas corporate culture thriving. A shame group Qantas isn't a sporting team, because it would be fair to say, the captains wouldn't make it out of the dressing room after their 'team mates' had finished their warm up.

Alan in the car with Bruce: "Hey Bruce, did you remember to fit the wheel nuts?"

[rodchucker]

The response"..... well sort of Alan. After a detailed examination by the BCG we agreed with their proposal that 4 on each wheel was really a waste of time and money.

After a full risk assessment you really only needed 1 on each wheel and on every second wheel provide an additional one to give you a safety margin.

We got even more comfort by the fact that the in house trained mechanics were able to do it quicker when we awoke them from their fatigue driven sleep as they were used to this work practice from being trained in the depths of some third world country."


ps sorry could not help it after watching these events unfold.

[airtags]

Leadsled: - quite right - it is way too early in their careers for the "where are they now" segment!
................ the answers given to the Senators were weak and somewhat disjointed. Joyce's body language and interjections demonstrated he was edgy. The chairs at the table are pretty comfortable, but he certainly seemed to be as restless as a Capt in bad wx with a 200 hr cadet at his side.

Rodchucker:
Ms Neeteson-Lemkes certainly showed she had more balls than the QF/JQ bosses and flunkies that preceeded her appearance. It was a shame she was not better armed with facts but, none the less, her anecdotal testimony was highly relevant, especially in relation to CC fatigue.

Interestingly her testimony underscored John Gissing's earlier gutting of the QF use of FAID to determine fatigue risk in connection with rosters and that in turn now poses a serious question to CASA.

Q: If CAO 48 deals soley with flight crew duty limitations, why did V Australia's CAO48 exemption which expired (ironically) yesterday get the rubber stamp of renewal AND to also include CC?

and.,

Q: If in upholding their position to include CC in CAO 48 exemptions, then why can JQ and QF agree that one pattern is 'wholly arduous and fatigue inducing for Australian CC' but...... then claim the very same pattern with an additional sector and reduced rest for QF Kiwi CC is not?..........another example of "$afety"

Actually, these give rise to a bigger supplementary question, that given the testimony relating to fatigue risks & duty limits:

Q: Why has CASA issued any CAO 48 and why has CASA not inisted on a full day of ops SRMP to be submitted with each Operator's application for the CAO48 exemption?

While some of this will formally be explored in the Parliamentary Inquiry into CC ratios, there is an apparent and 'blind-eye' void in both the Regulator's diligence and QF/JQ's integrity.

AT

[Mr. Hat]

I've been looking around on the internet (unsuccessfully) for a box set of Air Crash Investigation (Australian Region DVD). Does anyone know where to find one that is Aussie and not European (yes tried amazon ebay- no luck yet).

With Xmas coming up so soon was just thinking of a present for the Senators..

My shout..

[hotnhigh]

If you cant get the box set Mr Hat, try this for a stocking filler.
I think it marries up what is going on quite well at the moment. Senate enquiries, airline management, fatigue, and princesses.
YouTube - Chief Clancy Wiggum - Nothing to see here

[The Kelpie]

Mr Hat

I don't think they need the box set.

The one posted yesterday on the Colgan Incident should be enough when the Senators see that all of the issues discussed in the Inquiry were indeed factors in the Colgan Air incident, including the Increase Ref switch on the Q400.

Gissing dismissed the stick shaking events yesterday that were not low energy and put them down to the increased ref speed switch not being correctly selected. Look what happenned to the Colgan Air crew in this very situation!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[rmcdonal]

Gissing dismissed the stick shaking events yesterday that were not low energy and put them down to the increased ref speed switch not being correctly selected. Look what happenned to the Colgan Air crew in this very situation!!

Let me just clarify this one
In the Colgan incident the aircraft was in icing conditions, and did in fact stall.
Where as the Ref Speed incidents at the Link where out of icing conditions causing the stick shakers to activate 20 knots earlier than they would have normally. These aircraft did not stall.

The other low speed events however...

[Artificial Horizon]

Actually, the Colgan stall was not caused by icing, the aircraft was in icing conditions and the Increase REF switch was selected and forgotten about. Distraction caused the flight crew to allow the speed to reduce to the stick shaker onset, at this stage the aircraft was approx 20 knots above an actual stall. The aircraft only entered an actual stall when the Captain mishandled the recovery and on application of full power pulled hard back inducing an aerodynamic stall, to further compound the problem the FO announced that she was raising the gear and proceeded to retract the flaps. So this incident is very similar to the initial stages of the above occurrences, the only difference in the outcome was due to the crew not mishandling the recovery. That is where the training / experience and fatigue argument come into it!!

[PLovett]

rmcdonal, the Colgan Air crash was caused when the aircraft stalled after the crew applied the wrong technique when the stick shaker activated. Yes it was in icing conditions but it did not stall until the fatigued and inappropriately trained crew both pulled the nose up and retracted flaps. := The result was then inevitable. :uhoh:

A H got there ahead of me. :O

[gobbledock]

Gissing dismissed the stick shaking events yesterday that were not low energy and put them down to the increased ref speed switch not being correctly selected. Look what happenned to the Colgan Air crew in this very situation!!
Gissing is out of touch. Too much time sipping Cognac and not out in the field will deaden a person's perception of reality. He is another part of the Mascot furniture which requires replacement. He is more concerned with bonus payments and an executive salary, but he knows how to play the game well, perhaps he should take the stand in front of Nick ? Colgan was not a straight forward textbook accident if there is such a thing. Involved were the issues of fatigue, training, weather/location/pilot familiarality of the region, long travel sectors flown just to pick up the aircraft, procedural violations, crap management, low cost airline practises and the list goes on. If Gissing thinks the shaker incidents were merely caused by one casual factor then he well and truly needs to move on and let somebody else run the safety department.
I find it amazing that this 'safety leader' is still holding the position he has after all the occurences taking place over the past two years, not to metion the airlines decline ( I mean complete loss) of its excellent safety reputation ? This in itself shows how rotten the fish is...

And as an additional point I know of a number of JQ pilots concerned about flying into BNE late at night due the unrestricted aircraft operations permitted which often means ramp duty managers are working common shifts of between 12 -14 hours under extreme pressure and impossible work loads and late night mistakes are extremely common. I have also heard in the past few years that several managers have resigned, had breakdowns or near heart attcks due to the fatigue and pressure of working sometimes 70 hour weeks. Not pretty friends...

[Mr. Hat]

Kelpie, Colgan would be a good start but I think each episode gives a different and sometimes unexpected perspective. I don't know about your family but mine go pretty quiet during some of the scenes. Its sobering stuff.

If they are going to be making big decisions I think they need to take the time to see as many as possible.

Personally I think its compulsory viewing for everyone in the industry.

[gruntyfen]

The comments re Colgan and stick shaker incidents here warrant being written up and submitted to Senator Xenophon. They make a powerful argument about fatigue and training issues and may just make the difference in getting something meaningful into the conclusions and recommendations of the report.

[breakfastburrito]

Send them to Senator Kerry O'Brian (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/senators/homepages/senators.asp?id=8O6) too. He travels frequently on the Dash8's and has a vested interest - by his own admission. I believe he is also onside judging by his demeanour and poignant questions. He could be the sleeper in this inquiry.

[magicbox]

I hear on the grapevine that BB sent out an email to all pilots today regarding the senate enquiry and his dislike of AIPA. Anyone care to post???? Sounds like a good read.

Also it looks like steve creedy didn't writing any articles in todays Australian? Was he too busy at the chairmans lounge?:E

[flyingins]

That is correct. I cannot get to the email at the moment but it appears that BB feels it necessary to threaten his crew that they should not feel threatened.

In fact the memo was released twice. The first one taking a big, childish dig at AIPA, the second one 10 minutes later with that entire paragraph removed.

Fascinating to watch......

No doubt someone will release the letter(s) below.

[Artificial Horizon]

Yep, all very strange, one version trashing AIPA and one version without the full trashing. He then goes on to say that the email from the 'base' pilot, in his opinion, was not threatening at all!! According to the email we should be thanking J* for providing such a supportive and open culture at J* and he is, in a parent sort of role, very disappointed that some individuals are using this senate enquiry to release documents that we should of given to management instead, as they would of thoroughly investigated all our concerns :ugh:

[rooboy762002]

Just to make things clear.
Even though Jetstar has over 60% of its pilot group as members with AIPA, it is to be referred to as the "Qantas Pilot Union." :ugh:

[waren9]

In fact the memo was released twice. The first one taking a big, childish dig at AIPA, the second one 10 minutes later with that entire paragraph removed.




One version for pilots, another version for all employees, thats all. Check whos in the "to" line.

A very shallow dig at trying to turn pilots against AIPA. Granted, Reg does seem to have trouble understanding who the "Qantas Pilots Union" actually represents. Maybe someone should point out to him what the letters A.I.P.A actually stand for.

[Mainframe]

Breakfast Burrito,

Spot on re Sen Kerry O'brien.

Check his credentials, he has a long history of putting CASA on the spot.

Give him factual information and he will run with it, but dont feed him BS!

He enjoys jousting with the regulator and asking awkward questions, he's as much on side as Nick,
but more experienced and with a longer track record, he and Nick teamed together could be formidable>

[The Green Goblin]

So who's going to bite the bullet and post it for the rest to enjoy :p

[Cactusjack]

He then goes on to say that the email from the 'base' pilot, in his opinion, was not threatening at all!! According to the email we should be thanking J* for providing such a supportive and open culture at J*
Hilarious stuff. I actually believe BB. To be called a 'Pricess' is no big deal. After all, if you recall BB on his infamous flight got busted playing a game of Prince and the Princess, and AJ is rumoured to be recently engaged so no doubt their will be a Princess of some sort in that relationship !

and he is, in a parent sort of role, very disappointed that some individuals are using this senate enquiry to release documents that we should of given to management instead, as they would of thoroughly investigated all our concerns :ugh:
Wow, we should now call him 'Surrogate Bruce' for being a daddy to the staff, or perhaps 'Breast Feeding Bruce', 'BCG - Bruces Childcare Group' ? And like all good parents, Bruce is disapointed in some of his surrogate children so perhaps he will ground the complaining pilots for a week, remove their laptop priveledges, curfew them from being out after 2100 for a month (whoops that will be difficult with the standard nightly delays), remove their weekly pocket money allowances and make them write a thousand times in a note book -" I Will Not Act Like A Princess' !

Yep, I believe 'Boston Bruce' is history and 'Surrogate Bruce' now reigns supreme.

[Mr. Hat]

hmmm.. AFAP the Buchanan preferred union? Now I really am concerned. Joining dots...

in a parent sort of role

..just got off the phone to my parents and asked them "what the HELL were they thinking when they told me to get plenty of rest and to not stay up late".

[SOPS]

Me thinks the pressure is starting to show and cracks are appearing:ok:

[Cactusjack]

And here it is, the TV guide for next weeks movies on 8/4/2011 for those who watch 'Senate TV'.

1400: Prince And The Pauper - A touching movie about how a rich executive Prince on a superb salary becomes flustered and implodes as his empire is shaken to the very core by rumblings and expressions of mistrust by the companies pilots who naughtily speak out against him.
This film is a must see for aviation buffs and government Ministers and gets 3 stars.

1830: Princess Diaries - A film about an executive airline CEO who keeps diaries and logs on all his pilots who comment both publicly and sometimes privately. You will laugh as you watch this CEO going undercover and dressing up as a union delegate in an attempt to catch these mischievous overpaid underworked pilots in the act. Later you will cry as you see the same CEO wet nurse his pilots and provide them with tender counsel as he fine tunes his fatherly role. A must see for those with a romantic heart or those who enjoy receiving hand cranks in business class seats. 4 stars.

2130: The Princess Bride - Finally the evenings highlight. You will be mesmerised, filled with joy and even slightly aroused to be sure as you watch an airline CEO hunt down is bride to be with joyous passion. There is a secret and 'happy' ending to this film which features a wedding proposal and then the wedding in location that remaions secret but is believed to take place in Vietnam, Japan or Honolulu. 4.5 stars.

Happy viewing.

[Mstr Caution]

Or for those that enjoy a Romance Novel

Author Michelle Willingham » The Accidental Princess (http://www.michellewillingham.com/books/the-accidental-princess/)

[Mstr Caution]

Kelpie, post 833

Seems that Jetstar may have fudged the report on the Darwin windshear incident in their clarification to the ATSB!! or should I say economical with the truth!!

Also just speculation, but I wonder whether the pilot in the Darwin incident was invited in for a meeting just like Joe Eakins and asked to pen that letter that Buchanan had at his disposal dissenting the statements made by Captain Richard Woodward at the last hearing?



Sops,

If i had to guess, i think this is one of the sources of "pressure"

After the JQ missed approach event in Melbourne & the lack of accurate data sent to the ATSB, then the same with this windshear event in Darwin.

When the Senate inquiry went "in camera", I can only speculate but I dare say further details were provided to the Senators as to what was reported
to the ATSB.

Immediately after comming out of "in camera", Dolan from the ATSB made a comment to clarify what he had said earlier "in camera".

I don't recall the exact comment, but words to the effect of whether action from CASA was likely to eventuate or otherwise was outside the responsibility of the ATSB.

[KRUSTY 34]

Where there's smoke, (and in this case also mirrors) there's usually fire! But hey, we know that already. Hopefully the Senators will see through all the unmittigated BS and act accordingly.

As for CASA. Unless you want to be sanctioned along with the rest, best you bury your skeletons (as well as you can) and move to bring JQ into line. While you're at it you might want to save time and put the wheels in motion to shut down the Cadet Scam. The legislators will be directing you to do that soon enough anyway. Those of you who are left that is!

When the music stops, I doubt there will be anywhere near enough chairs. :{

[breakfastburrito]

Krusty, the CASA / J* audit conflict of interest question by Sen Xenophon of Mr Mark Rossiter, Head of Safety is at 11:57 in part 4: Senate Hearing day 4, part 4.

[The Kelpie]

3 weeks after signing the CAO48 exemption Rossiter said he had a conversation with Bruce. Yes that's right, not HR for an open vacancy but Buchanan himself. Since when do CASA managers in their day to day work have a direct line to the Airline CEO??

Something smells here!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Lookleft]

Its a pity Senator X didn't pursue the question about the Singapore incident with MR (either one) about what happened to the crew post incident. The Captain was sacked and the F/O was taken off line duties for 3 months even though he did what was required of him! I also liked the bit where BB said there was not a Base Manager in Perth and MR had to step in and contradict him.

I think AJ decided that he was going to be a bit more belligerent this time as he kept butting in on questions involving J* and Qantaslink. Doesn't he trust his subordinates to not put their foot in their mouth?

If Jetstar have an issue with pilots and F/As going before the Senate to express their concerns then BB only has himself to blame. AJ wrote a letter to the J* pilots about AIPA in 2007 at the time of another Senate enquiry into the Qantas Sale Act where the then head of AIPA was trying to paint a picture of sub-standard pilots within J*. AJ had the full support of the pilot group. Now BB writes a similar rant against AIPA but AIPA have 2/3 membership of the J* pilot group! Why? Because through his decisions the pilots have realised that by being passive we are giving him a green light to do whatever he wants to our working conditions and careers.

[Jetsbest]

Then, as now, Qantas managers will always seek to misrepresent AIPA's position if at all possible. :*

[Chocks Away]

I hope alot of other airline "managers" (term used very loosely!) are watching and learning from this?!
Sure, "systems are in place" and it all looks good in the manuals but operationally... it's a very different story!

[spelling_nazi]

Yep, all very strange, one version trashing AIPA and one version without the full trashing. He then goes on to say that the email from the 'base' pilot, in his opinion, was not threatening at all!! According to the email we should be thanking J* for providing such a supportive and open culture at J* and he is, in a parent sort of role, very disappointed that some individuals are using this senate enquiry to release documents that we should of given to management instead, as they would of thoroughly investigated all our concerns

I can't take it any more....I really can't. AH you're not the only one but I assume you're Gen-Y and seriously its the bloody lot of you.

Please...please...please stop butchering the English language.
It's "would have" not "would of" and "should have" not "should of".

And while I'm at it please learn the difference between "lose" and "Loose". Please please please! I can't take it any more.

We are supposed to be professionals here. Learn the fargin language gen Y!!

There...I'll go back to my life now....

[runesta]

The inquiry is missing the whole point by not asking the right questions or casting the spotlight in the right areas. The inquiry's focus should be broader and look at the whole industry.

The terms of reference only covers australian carriers. The public is free to fly on international carriers with significantly lower safety standards and day in day out some of these international carriers fly into Australia. How much do we really know about their practices and safety standards?

I would not be at all surprised if some overseas carriers put the flying public in more risk than any Australian carriers.

[Chocks Away]

Spelling Nazi - I object to being called a GenY :eek: GenX thank you :ok:
Mistake loosely made in a rush, losing my otherwise solid command of the language. :p

Muzzle the little man, so the right questions can be asked to the right people, without "belligerent" interruptions, steering it where HE wants it to go ! :yuk:

[Mstr Caution]

Lookleft - Its a pity Senator X didn't pursue the question about the Singapore incident with MR (either one) about what happened to the crew post incident. The Captain was sacked and the F/O was taken off line duties for 3 months even though he did what was required of him!


Was that the Mobile phone incident on approach in Singapore?

Investigation: AO-2010-035 - Airbus A321-231, VH-VWW, Singapore, Changi International, 26 May 2010 (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2010/aair/ao-2010-035.aspx)

If so, I find it "unusual" the pilots employment was terminated but the ATSB investigation is still pending nearly 12 months after the event.

Do the company have more info about the event that the ATSB dont?

Or does it indicate the punitive culture that exists within J* ?

[Captain Sherm]

Indulge an aging Sherm with a read of this little ramble please. I haven’t had time to edit, focus and re-write but I do think there’s some good points in this if you have the time to look closely. Hope so. Now read on………

One of the phrases often used in management circles these days is “pressure testing”. It, in many of those circles, is an amateurish phrase derived from the far more rigorous world of engineers, people like boilermakers, mining and submarine engineers etc. In that world it actually means something. I watched “Das Boot” a few nights back and saw the reality as the U-Boat had to get way below design depths to escape an attack. They had their “Red Line” on the depth gauge, then the design structural limit, then the limit of the gauge and then beyond that the structure itself started to scream that it was near its absolute limit, as with all the right creaks and groans from a tortured hull the leaks started. Even then though the boat just held together. So-the ultimate “pressure test” worked, as did the capabilities of the experienced crew who manned the boat.

D.P. Davies (of “Handling the Big Jets”) once wrote that in all his aircraft testing and approval he was aiming to be sure that an aircraft and its procedures were safe for the life of the aircraft when flown by below average crews on a below average day. The certainly would be what Sherm would expect to see when inspecting a CAR 217 Training organization or approving a new type certificate or AOC amendment. Even in “Handling the Big Jets” itself you read that Davies believes there is nothing inherently frightening about the tasks involved in flying because the aircraft are certified to robust standards with lots of redundant capability. Certainly in Sherm’s beloved 777 there is so much redundancy that few if any pilots would ever actually reach the end of the envelope. Even in the terrible BA fuel icing crash the structure worked and the passengers and crew got out. Similarly the Air France 340 crash at Toronto…….a well trained crew did get all the pax out of the exits in about the required 90 seconds.

So….where’s the lesson and the moral guidance in all of this? Hopefully there’s no need to go further for the professionals who are reading this. But for others who haven’t actually ever been strapped up in the front left hand seat of something where the price of error could be the blood hundreds of innocents let me go on….

There is a world where it is acceptable to design something, a system or program, build it or implement it, and wait until it “springs a leak” to see where the flaws are then fix it. That sort of reactive strategy might work for example when building a rabbit hutch (unless the rabbit was dear to some little heart), when figuring out how many sausages you need for the footy club BBQ or even something much bigger like a program to offer free Australian flags to every household in the country. In each case if you get it wrong, how bad could it be….just fix the problems as they show up. Get another rabbit, buy more beer, make more flags.

In World War 2 it was so important on all sides to keep the production lines going that even dodgy designs got into production and then were scrapped or relegated to training or target towing because there was not enough time to fix things before they happened. "Build first, fix afterwards" was OK and an acceptable risk and indeed produced some wonderful aircraft after initial disasters.

However, the above most certainly does not apply today to many, many areas of life especially things like designing an Intensive Care Unit, a dam wall, a subsidized roof insulation program!!, and most importantly for we in aviation, it DOES NOT WORK AND NEVER WILL in the management of aviation safety.

Now, before the BCG analysts who might read this have a collective fit. This does not mean to build so much costly redundancy into a system that it can never fail. No. Those days are gone and we all understand the need for actuarial assessments and engineering calculations to assess what is in fact the design limit and beyond that, the actual absolute failure limit. Sensible, even aggressive, cost management is good stewardship and good management. No problems with that at all.

But there are limits: as all sensible professionals know.

An airline is an organism, not just an organization chart. It needs to be designed for robustness so that for example, the Operations Centre can manage two separate crises (e.g. the Icelandic volcano ash over Europe, and a cyclone threatening massive diversions to alternates on the other side of the world. All while running the rest of the operation well. That comes from the fundamental design philosophy, embedded in the inspections for the issue and renewal of an AOC. That cannot come from routinely operating at the edge of the envelope.

Reports from crews are not an “Early Warning System”. They are “after the fact” indicators of whether the system designers need to rebuild or strengthen. They are NOT a substitute for doing it right first time. In many cases the report will not be of any use at all to the airline, the damage will be already have been done.

On 11 May 1996 Valujet got an “early warning” that its procedures for supervising the carriage of oxygen generators was inadequate. The warning was in the form of the Purser screaming to the crew that “the galley floor is getting hot”. Minutes later they were all dead.

Here’s a transcript of the “early warning” that Alaska Airlines got over the adequacy of their changes to the MD-80 stabilizer lubrication program, an "early warning" to the inadequacies of Alaska and the FAA which involved the killing of 88 passengers and crew:

Ok, we are inverted... and now we gotta get it….
1619:59
CAM-1 push push push... push the blue side up.
1620:14
CAM-1 push.
1620:14
CAM-2 I'm pushing.
1620:16
CAM-1 ok now lets kick rudder... left rudder left rudder.
1620:18
CAM-2 I can't reach it.
1620:20
CAM-1 ok right rudder... right rudder.
1620:25
CAM-1 are we flyin?... we're flyin... we're flyin... tell 'em what we're doin
CAM-1 gotta get it over again... at least upside down we're flyin.
1620:40.6
CAM [sounds similar to compressor stalls begin and continue to end of recording]
1620:49
CAM [sound similar to engine spool down]
1620:54
CAM-1 speedbrakes.
1620:55.1
CAM-2 got it.
1620:56.2
CAM-1 ah here we go.
1620:57.1
[End of recording]

OK….here’s the point. To get and hold an AOC management are required to have a robust and functioning organism which meets at a minimum the black letter rules and also functions well no matter what stresses and strains come. Simply saying that “We don’t get many reports complaining of fatigue” is not remotely connected to adequately fulfilling the responsibilities required of AOC Post Holders.

ICAO document 8335 “Manual of Procedures for Operations Inspection, Certification and Continued Surveillance” sets out the world standard:

“The operator has a responsibility for the safe conduct of operations and for compliance with any laws or regulations which the State of the Operator may promulgate. These laws and regulations, which are the means by which the State implements the provisions of the Annexes, are not in themselves sufficient to provide the operator with comprehensive and detailed instructions on which to base an operation. The responsibility for the development of operating instructions necessary for the safety, regularity and efficiency of an operation therefore rests upon the operator”

Note the two parts: must operate safely AND be compliant. The written limits are not enough. They are not operating norms. Never were meant to be. This is why 8335 says:

“A sound and effective management structure is essential. It is particularly important that the operational management should have proper status in the organization and be in suitably experienced and competent hands”

When that little yellow canary in the cage stops singing and starts to waver, its already time to leave the coal mine. It is not time to have a management meeting to see what to do next.

Monitoring symptoms is of course a necessary part of airline management. BY ITSELF IT WILL NEVER BE ENOUGH.


Safe flying

Sherm

[framer]

Well said.
You've summed up what many of us instinctively know after years/decades of flying. The problem is, the people making he decisions in the senate inquiry haven't had that experience, they will have to be clever enough to work out that the gradual change that has ocurred with little obvious consequence so far, has led us to be boardering right on the edge of an accident, and the conclusions that they come to will decide if that accident ocurrs.
If they are indeed that clever and can see that, we may move in the right direction again. If they aren't, or if there are such powerful economic forces at play that they don't, we will see the result on the six o clock news within the next ten years. My 2 cents.

[JetstarA320Pilot]

Here's the email:

Yesterday Alan Joyce and I again appeared before a hearing in the ongoing Senate Inquiry into Pilot Training and Airline Safety. The Jetstar delegation included our Chief Pilot, Captain Mark Rindfleish and Head of Safety, Mark Rossiter.

Following further media reports and comments made by the Qantas Pilot Union and Senator Xenophon following yesterday’s hearing in Canberra, I also subsequently briefed the media to defend Jetstar pilots, our safety standards and culture.

Jetstar and the broader Qantas Group have participated openly and willingly in the Senate Inquiry. In our shared interest of ensuring that Australia has and continues to maintain the highest levels of aviation safety, we have addressed every issue presented to us on its merits and have done so publically. No other airline group has taken such a thorough approach.

We are therefore very disappointed that our spirit of cooperation and openness has not been shared, and that some parties are continuing to use the platform of the Inquiry to sensationalise their own agendas outside the realm of safety.

Pilot email

During the hearing, Senator Xenophon introduced into proceedings an unattributed email, sent by a Pilot in the Perth base to other Perth pilots. Rather than give Jetstar or the Pilot in question a chance to respond to the allegations, the Senator and the Qantas Pilot Union then staged a media conference claiming this was an example of bullying and demonstrated a fear of reporting among our pilots.

Having now read the email I find it hard to reconcile the email with a fear of speaking out, as the language is direct and open.

This is not the first occasion in the Inquiry where unsubstantiated assertions have been shown to be without foundation. Collectively these allegations have done material damage to the hard-earned reputation of Jetstar and the broader Qantas Group, and they unnecessarily undermine public confidence in Australia’s aviation safety standards.

I am keen to hear from any of you if you believe there is a culture of fear and bullying at Jetstar. I want to assure you that bullying is something we absolutely do not tolerate at Jetstar.

Safety and Fatigue

Throughout this Inquiry matters pertaining to fatigue have been raised.

Jetstar has the same high standards of fatigue management as the rest of the Qantas Group and we take Pilot fatigue very seriously.

Over the last few years, we have made considerable investments in our fatigue management system, including recruiting new experts in this area, building new systems and establishing processes that to help us learn and improve through the various avenues of feedback. As with most areas of the business, we are continuing to invest and build this system, in accordance with a global best practice risk management approach.

Recently, we have made three changes directly as a result of our fatigue management system that have come at cost, but which show that safety is always our first priority. These are:

Recently moving overnight crewing in Tokyo to Osaka only, as a result of continuing disruptions to rest
Specific changes to our South East Queensland base operation (covering BNE/OOL) last year
Changes to the Darwin-Singapore pattern decided in February this year and currently being implemented.

Fatigue management is a dual responsibility. The company has a responsibility to ensure that we provide adequate opportunities to rest. Our crews have a responsibility to ensure they are fit for duty. If any crew member is fatigued they should not be flying and they have a responsibility to inform us if they are fatigued. This has always been our approach.

Reporting any concerns

Jetstar has a very open reporting culture and we receive many thousands of safety reports every year. Jetstar has the highest reporting levels in the Qantas Group.

It has been suggested on a number of occasions that Jetstar employees are afraid to report safety matters, fearing retribution. No evidence has been supplied to support this claim. No Jetstar employee has ever lost their job in such circumstances.

Should any of you have concerns about safety or fatigue management, there are formal processes in place to report internally within Jetstar, as well as through the independent safety regulator. We all have a legal and moral obligation to table any safety related concerns to all the relevant bodies – Jetstar Safety team, Qantas Group whistleblower, ATSB or CASA.

Those that withhold safety information (as AIPA Representative Woodward purported to do by tabling new concerns in relation to the Darwin windshear event) are jeopardising safety and in addition are breaking the law.

If you have any concerns about both the internal and external (ATSB and CASA) avenues open to you, I want to hear about them.

Qantas Pilot Union (AIPA)

I believe many of you would be as concerned and disappointed as I am that the union and its Representative, both directly within the Inquiry, and in its public commentary, have continually used this forum to discredit Jetstar and its pilots with mis-information. This mis-information includes claims about the Darwin windshear event and yesterday’s bullying claims.

One of the operating pilots on the Darwin flight has directly refuted Representative Woodward’s version of events. AIPA Representative Woodward’s claims are mis-information and misrepresentation that damage our airline and the pilots involved in the incident.

Let’s be clear – I have no concerns with legitimate union activities. What concerns me is that AIPA’s approach seeks to damage Jetstar and the careers of individual Pilots who work for us.
I would hope that AIPA Representative Woodward will think twice in the future before he misleads the public and misrepresents pilots that he purports to represent.
The union has made it very clear that they are prepared to create and then abuse public safety concerns as a means to discredit the Company’s standards and management in pursuit of their industrial objectives. Now that Jetstar is successful, they want to access jobs and promotions ahead of everyone in Jetstar who has helped to create our success.

[Lookleft]

Sherm I have had that concept of stress testing an organisation and how it applies to staff explained to me recently and you have hit the nail on the head. Its how the BCG like to run business. It doesn't work in this industry as you have stated. Thats why this Senate hearing is so important and I get the impression that most of the senators "get it" and why BB and AJ don't. They are applying a business practise that they think is a sure profit generator with no understanding of how it can go wrong in so many ways in aviation.

When the headlines and commentators ask how could a jet accident happen in Australia no one can say that they didn't know there were problems-not even BB.

Mstr Caution-Airlines don't have to wait for the final report into an incident before they change procedures or personnel. It also doesn't stop them talking about an event before the final report has been issued i.e. BB saying that he can't talk about the DN windshear because its still the subject of an ATSB investigation. The ATSB investigation cannot be used for any legal action therefore is not subject to the same conditions as a court case. It also means that crew do not have to be taken off line while the investigation is on going. That decision is made solely by the airline and has nothing to do with the ATSB.

[gobbledock]

3 weeks after signing the CAO48 exemption Rossiter said he had a conversation with Bruce. Yes that's right, not HR for an open vacancy but Buchanan himself. Since when do CASA managers in their day to day work have a direct line to the Airline CEO??
Yes indeed, very interesting, please explain Bruce.
I ask ;
1) Would this mean that HR and Bruce contravened Jetstars own employment policy ?
2) Had a lower ranked employee violated company procedures in the same fashion would they not be dismissed for such breach of policy ?
3) Is this evidence of the wreckless attitude and 'do as I please' mentality of the airlines executives an indicator of why so many safety problems exist ?
4) Is it not interesting that Rossiter also had Jetstar as part of his oversight portfolio while employed with CASA in Melbourne, so should there not be a deeper investigation into all approvals and decision making signed off by Rossiter on behalf of the Melbourne CASA field office prior to his employemnt with Jetstar ?
5) Rossiter took with him another CASA Melbourne field office inspector to Jetstar approximately 6 months after his commencing employment with Jetstar. Was her new safey role in Jetstar advertised by HR ? Has there been an investigation into her decison making approvals and work tasks completed in relation to Jetstar prior to her leaving CASA and commencing employment with Jetstar? Has Rossiter and Jetstar HR again breached company policy perhaps ?
6) What/where is CASA's policy on staff resigning and commencing employment with an operator they have been assigned to and providing approvals to as well ? Should CASA's own HR manager be called before the senate to explain this process. Other CASA staff have been seconded to airlines for periods of time while still having access to CASA offices, is this a breach that should be explained by CASA HR who approved this process along with former DCEO Mick Quinn ( refer to Toll Aviation and the CASA employee who set up Toll's SMS) ?

I would suggest that Senator Nick question Rossiter without the presence of Bruce or Alan close by and really probe deep. Rossiter is merely a patsy to Bruce, it is part of his personality and mantra, he was a footstool to the execs at CASA and is a footstool to the execs at JQ, he will crack under pressure, I have seen it before.

Tsk Tsk when you add these events together with cosy fishing trips, drinkies at the Pinkenba Hotel with airline managers, and some pretty heavy party activities between regulatory staff and the airlines you start to side with Kelpie's comment 'Something smells here'!!

[Mstr Caution]

Lookleft,

My angle on the event is:

1. If Jetstar was confident enough to terminate his/her employment, then suffient data must have been known about the event some time ago.

2. That it seems to be a very long period of time to complete what I would have thought was a straight forward investigation.

3. There was either a deficiency in the operational safety culture or an overly punitive management culture.

[JetstarA320Pilot]

I hear on the grapevine that BB sent out an email to all pilots today regarding the senate enquiry and his dislike of AIPA. Anyone care to post???? Sounds like a good read.


Yes, he did. I tried posting it here but it hasn't showed up yet. PM me if you'd like a copy

EDIT - EMAIL NOW APPEARS IN EARLIER POST ABOVE

[The Kelpie]

Jetstar320pilot

Thanks for the PM, I already have a copy and it has clearly rattled Bruce and his words are nothing more than lip service and an attempt to salvage the situation. We have heard evidence of the dismissive way that the company deals with safety concerns. Is it any wonder that employees do not have faith in the system.

I particularly liked this bit

It has been suggested on a number of occasions that Jetstar employees are afraid to report safety matters, fearing retribution. No evidence has been supplied to support this claim. No Jetstar employee has ever lost their job in such circumstances.

Two words JOE EAKINS!!!

More to follow

The Kelpie

[Tutaewera]

I'm with Runesta...

Take one fairly large "Asian LCC" flying into OZ. Its had (as just one example) several runway serious excursions in the last few years, one in an A320 just a few weeks back... Yet they fly in and out of OZ with inexperienced cadets in the RHS etc. However they attract little if any press attention, let alone a senate enquiry etc. If CBR is genuinely concerned about passenger safety in OZ, perhaps they could try opening their eyes a bit wider. In my view there are far bigger worries around than JQ, QF, VB or TT.

Do I like "pay for training" schemes and LCC cost control methodologies? Hell no! :\
But when we allow the pollies to deregulate our aviation borders what do we expect? Do we expect JQ mgt etc to just roll over? Of course not; they will eat their own young to survive (and maintain their bonus.. :yuk:). So if we really want to get to the root cause; its plain old deregulation or dare I use that word - globalisation... Simply put if you open you doors to dodgy imports you have to become a bit dodgy yourself to keep selling your wares. Thats the real decision for senators and parliament if they want to maintain first world safety standards, not bashing one OZ airline's internal policies vs another.

IMHO it appears to have more to do with a QF union scaremongering those in CBR into saving their shrinking promotion pool, and a media hungry Senator making as much noise as he can. Rather than a genuine effort to improve Ozzie pax safety...

OK rave over...

Meantime it is interesting to see mgt put in the hot seat and squirm on the telly! :ok:

[4dogs]

didn't know that Mr Thomas had extended his role as Skywest mouthpiece to now include Jetstar. From today under the byline of Geoffrey Thomas, Aviation Editor, The West Australian April 2, 2011, 3:00 am:

Jetstar was in the news on Thursday over an alleged email from a pilot telling colleagues not to be "princesses" over rostering complaints. It was reported at a Senate inquiry that the pilot was a base pilot or a chief pilot, whereas as he was only acting in a mentoring role and had no authority.

It has been revealed that he was from Perth and he feared that if his colleagues kicked up a fuss over rostering, Jetstar would close the Perth base.

It has also been found that the rostering for Jetstar's Perth-based pilots was, in the main, easier than for pilots based at other airports.

Given Mr Thomas has reported as if these statement were facts, I wonder what the source and evidence for those "facts" were. Or was the QF/JQ PR machine offering inducements...

Stay Alive,

[Captain Sherm]

With respect, we cannot have a world based on "We're Australian AOC holders, we're OK, please look more at the dodgy Asians".

The role of the Australian government is to adequately supervise Australian AOC holders and apply adequate oversight to foreign operators. All fairly well laid out.

I think the point is that the correct level of oversight of Australian AOC holders by CASA is not predicated on "whether problems have shown up yet". That in essence is the BCG view of the world. See where the band-aid is needed and apply it.

It is the essence of problems that they might not show up in the stats until it's too late. KLM was the safest airline in the world until Tenerife. Qantas was then the safest until Bangkok. Southwest had a flawless record until Burbank. Air France's CRM record was the envy of the world until Toronto. etc etc.

What is needed and must be adequately funded is a rock solid regulatory oversight system watching internal operator management through surveillance, audits, spot checks and genuine involvement in change management, quality and SMS systems in practice as well as theory and ready if needed to hold AOC post holders accountable-at the risk of their certificate if necessary. This is the only way to go.

Some Asian carriers have maintenance that would put western carriers to shame. Ditto their cadet schemes. Anecdotes are no way to allocate oversight resources. For foreign operators quality vetting of operating applications and quality ramp checks are a good start. Build onto that the ability to look deeper when data does indicate any problem.

But let's not ever deceive ourselves with hubris and pretend that our flying is inherently safer than the rest of the world so the real place to look is other cockpits and workshops.

[scrubba]

Runesta and Tutaewera,

I think the Senators are well aware of the greater dangers elsewhere, but they have to be sure that there are no problems at home before they consider challenging our ratification of the Chicago Convention that, among other things, forces us to accept in the main that operators from other ICAO States meet the Convention reqirements. I can't quite see how they might compel the heads of the various foreign regulators to appear to give evidence about the standards of operators under their control, for example.

and Tutaewera, I do think they are genuinely interested in passenger safety in OZ.

[Mr. Hat]

Well said Sherm.

[Mr. Hat]

Its a very moving email indeed.

To know the CEO backs you the Jetstar pilot against the Fat greedy Qantas pilots is very moving indeed. Yes thats it! Lets attack the Qantas pilots!! YEAH. Lets distract everybody from the real issues and get them!!

Those bastards..

[KRUSTY 34]

Don't you love the way Buchanan constantly reinforces the "message" to the inquiry that "...we have very good processes in this country with the ATSB and CASA..." And this little gem a few minutes later "...we have a very strong independant regulator..."

It's almost subliminal. Maybe one thing to come out of the enquiry might be another enquiry into the realtionship between Qantas and the regulator. That is of course if the Senators are able to see just how corrupt these Ars@holes really are! :*

[breakfastburrito]

Krusty, the other thing I took away from the evidence of BB was the use of averages. I can state with 99.9% confidence that every MAN & WOMAN in Australia, has "on average" one testicle and one breast. Averages can be used to come to completely erroneous conclusions, as per our simple example. Therefore, whenever we hear "on average", something is being hidden in the data, and we need to drill into this claim more carefully.

On average, our pilots work 18 hours per week was the claim from BB. Firstly, that is stick hours, not duty hours. This hides the peak and troughs. Someone doing 3 or 4 BOC returns a week for two week is going to be shattered by the end of the second week, yet their average for the month appears to be acceptable to someone without the subtle understanding of this situation.

Go back and listen to the evidence, BB uses "on average" frequently.

[rodchucker]

Gobbledock,

Tsk Tsk when you add these events together with cosy fishing trips, drinkies at the Pinkenba Hotel with airline managers, and some pretty heavy party activities between regulatory staff and the airlines you start to side with Kelpie's comment 'Something smells here'!!

Having seen this at another regulator, I know exactly what goes on and it is corruption. A drink here or there is nothing but a sustained pattern or anything beyond token is a problem when put in the context of the intention of the giver.

Please give details to Kelpie or the Senators because if proven this will open a real can of worms that will be hard to explain.


This is not the time to hold back because the dice are about to be rolled.

[The Kelpie]

Krusty and BB

Listening to the inquiry again last night you only have to listen to Buchanan and Joyce's extremely carefully worded answers to know that these guys were at it again trying to pull the wool over the Senators eyes....again!!! You would have thought that they would have learned their lesson that I am listening and they will be exposed like the last time!

Specific examples include the use of averages as you have pointed out and the mixing of dissimilar foreign currencies to draw comparisons between salaries. FDL is not that simple a subject. Note when talking about SG cc he referred to the salary being in dollars and then quoted the Aus cc salaries in Australian Dollars. The untrained ear would miss that one!!

I am yet again in the process of identifying misleading evidence given by these two and will forward to Senators in due course.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[ejectx3]

We all appreciate the effort you are putting in to this kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

Yes Krusty and his fibbing ways worked. Have a look in the media or on public commentary and its those "average" hours that get quoted time and time again. He's a clever fellow indeed and our system just isn't accurate or resourceful enough to pick up that he is actually lying at a Senate Inquiry.

Its up to the Senators to say "right, hand over every single record and lets get a forensic analysis done". Its also up to the union to pursue Mr Buckkanan in the courts if he has been lying in a Senate Inquiry. I'd hope their lawyers are pouring over every word.

The aim is to mislead the Senators and influence public opinion much like 89 or with the wharfies.

[airtags]

"The only thing that will predicate change is the fear of and liklihood of discovery"

1. Create an independent safety reporting authority with statutory powers and ensure that the governance of this auhority is overseen ONLY by operational pilots, CC & engs on a rotating 2 year contract (ie a 'pool of resources with type currency and practical experience)

2. All reports go this authority are logged and assigned to CASA/ATSB & the airline concerned. Outcomes/resolutions/investigations all come back through the reporting authority for comment/review.

3. Reporting Authority reports direct to Parliament (ie NOT via a Minister....incidently noted that said Minister who normally has a media release for anything has been totally silent throughout)

4. Authority to publish reporting performance stats by type & by operator quarterly. This will in time create a "safety performance perception" in the mindset of the public which will (despite 'Bulltish Bruce's' $39 fares) change the way people chose to fly. It also will provide protection for aviation employees.

Less than $1 per pax would more than fund it.

AT

PS: Hope Woodward and AIPA are seeking advice re; what appears to be a clear demonstration of defo arising from Bruce's email.

[gobbledock]

Low cost fares (whether sold by an LCC or legacy carrier) are the main issue when it comes to safety.
The following should be adressed:

1) The time has come for the laws to be changed to allow regulated airlines to unite and fix a price structure. The government (full of hot air and who will deny this) allow the oil industry to do it as an example, why not aviation ? Airlines could be heavily regulated on price structure, safety and profitability.
2) The days of $39 fairs must cease. Cheap fares do not enable an airline to reap enough profit to offset rising costs. Cheap fares do not empower an airline to spend adequately on training, standards, skilled people and future investments. I am not saying this to demean present aviation employees of which I myself am one, but it is a reality.
3) Public education is necessary, to explain why an airfare that is cheaper than a short cab trip to the airport is simply not sustainable.
4) Actual accountability by airline executives needs to be implemented and uphleld, finally. No delay in this taking place should be entertained.
5) Present airline business models need to be changed. Safety 'is and must be the the key mover behind the need for urgent change'. Politicians and the public are finally hearing from industry people, flight attendants, pilots, engineers and the list goes on just how dangerous the industry has become.

I hope the path to an accident that we are travelling on can be re-directed. Sadly the only people who can enforce change and restructure are the Politicians, most who are incompetent and weak spineless creatures. I only hope that now, with the current publicity and truths that are being unveiled that each politician thinks about his own ass and safety and that of his parents, wives, children and friends every time he or they fly. Politicians need to listen to the voice of the aviation industry. The Joyces, Dixons and Buchanans are disconnected. They sit in their ivory towers counting dollars while being fed BS stories about the condition of the airline from underlings. They DO NOT fully know or understand their own companies as they are shrouded, protected and concealed from reality. Politicians, talk to the front-liners, they are the ones with a grip on reality and have an accurate full picture on what is taking place.

[Transition Layer]

It annoys the hell out of me that Buchanan continually refers to AIPA as the "Qantas Pilots Union".

What was the latest figure on JQ AIPA membership? Have heard it is upwards of 70%.

I'm sorry Bruce, but unlike AFAP, AIPA won't roll over and let you scratch it's belly!

[Mr. Hat]

Have a read of the email Transition. He's desperately trying to distract from the real issues and reheat the QF pilots vs JQ pilot war. It worked from the start and is an easy avenue. I wouldn't be surprised to see more of this "I'm your mate" carry on.

What he and AJ are also doing very effectively via media/government contacts, is pushing out false numbers into the public arena in an attempt to generate a Pilots vs General Public scenario. This instantly paints pilots as lazy and overpaid. The result being that any concerns regarding fatigue/safety will be quickly overshadowed.

What actually needs to be done is bringing those false figures out in a legal challenge. People need to be held accountable for telling lies over and over again particularly at an Inquiry into the matter. One might also argue that if they can't be trusted to tell the truth in a Senate Inquiry then they are definitely not fit to hold the role as a leader of an Airline where lies and mistruths are a recipe for a minefield of latent errors and eventual hull losses.

[Oldmate]

Agree with Kelpie that the use of average data is deceptive.

The trip computer in my car says my average speed is 42.5 km/h, does this mean that I can do 160 km/h for a while, and as long as my average stays below the limit I will be safe/legal?

The focus should be on the problem areas, the highest hours and most fatiguing rosters.

[Captain Sherm]

Gobbledy Gook

I understand your sentiment. I am sure many do. But the real issue is that it is not more expensive to do something properly, safely and in compliance with the letter and spirit of laws and regulations.

I suspect many readers here would support the view that in fact doing something properly is cheaper than constantly having management in "putting out bushfires" mode in so many areas. And they would be dead right.

If you re-regulate the industry then some would still try to rort the system to make bigger profits than the next guy.

The issue is not $39 fares. They're here to stay and part of a sophisticated yield management system and are not the reason that corners are cut. Corners are cut and limits pushed because there is a mindset among those who have never had airline dirt under their fingernails that only by pushing limits can you get the cost base right. They don't know what they don't know.

Poorly constructed rosters, management by ideology, very tight fuel policy, minimal ground support, divide and conquer non-union contracts, off-shore basing, over-reliance on MELs, reliance on fixing mistakes AFTER they've happened. These things cost big bucks wherever they happen. They do not save money, even in the short term.

There was NO cost reason behind the stuffed up "TOGA Tap" go-around at MEL in an A320. It was simply inept management within flight ops. Ended up costing a fortune in management time. Robust QA, CAR 217 check and training and reporting systems would have picked up that there was in that instance a poorly thought through but commonly used "Unwritten" SOP. Probably many others. Who would know if you're not looking?

Finding out what's in the "Unwritten" ops manuals is a huge job and it's absolutely central to a Chief Pilot's domain. And hence central to what the Regulator must require of the operator. Waiting until the aluminium scrapes the runway is way too late. KLM thought their procedures were fine until Tenerife. Qantas did until Bangkok.

Do not ever fall for the argument that only by pushing limits can the business be viable. That is used by those who don't know to push the one barrow that suits their ideology.

In our profession, "Doing it Right" is the best, cheapest and most efficient way. Somewhere out at the side of this debate, barely visible in the shadows, are the poor souls who over the years have paid the ultimate price for someone else trying to save money and in the end costing more than their savings could ever have been. They are our silent allies in this.

[Spotl]

I have uploaded to YouTube the full Television coverage of the Senate Inquiry hearings of 31 March lasting 3 hrs 20 mins. Full details can be found at Merged: Senate Inquiry Audio and Video Links. I also have full Television coverage of the hearings on 18th March that go for 4 hours.

[Sunfish]

Regarding the BB email.


My first full time job after finishing University was as the plant engineer for the Spotswood oil terminal in Melbourne, then owned by Esso (Now Exxon).

Some Twelve months into my employment, I, and other executives, were called to attend a half day presentation on business ethics, given by a Vice President of the corporation, from New York, no less. He was travelling the world giving this presentation to all Esso executives as part of an American Court settlement which was the result of Esso being caught by the American Government engaging in bribery and corruption from memory in South America.

The essence of his presentation was that Esso would henceforth only adhere to the highest standards of ethical behaviour, period. All laws were to be adhered to in thought word and deed. Business ethics were paramount, and the company was henceforth to be a model corporate citizen.

To this end, each branch of the company was to create an ethics committee composed of senior managers.

With metaphorical hand on heart he told us ;"If any of you ever believe that something you may be doing, or observe others are doing, might possibly be unethical, or against the spirit of our strict code of obedience to law and our code of ethics, I want all of you to promise to report the matter to the Committee."

Some three months later, young Sunfish found out exactly what was happening to the oily, greasy and foul interceptor trap waste he was paying $100 per drum to a contractor to be disposed of.

Something like $25 was going to the man on the gate at the local municipal tip. Another $25 was going to the bulldozer operator to dig a big pit in the landfill. When no one was looking, the truck was driven into the pit, the drums unloaded and the pit quickly filled in.

Sunfish, in his wisdom and with the words of the New York Vice President ringing in his ears, decided to report this obvious breach of business ethics to the Victorian operations manager of the day, one Bill Douglas (aka "The angry ant").

The result, to put it mildly, was not what I expected. There was no pat on the back, nothing was done. There was no EPA in those days either. Instead I was "frozen out" and life was made increasingly uncomfortable - not a team player. Being young and not very sure of myself, I let the matter rest. In the next Six months I realised that Essos concerns for safety were mere lip service, and I was set up as the fall guy if anything should go wrong in my bailiwick. I left and joined Ansett.

The Longford gas plant disaster vindicated everything I believed about Esso and their attitude to safety.

Reading the Email reproduced above, I think I could be forgiven for developing exactly the same feeling about the Jetstar safety culture as I developed about Esso's, right down to the punitive threat that anyone not reporting safety concerns (they won't if they know what's good for them) will be breaking the law.

Readers should note that after the Longford gas plant explosion and fire, Esso immediately blamed the incinerated plant operators for "not following procedures". It took a royal commission to discover that Esso had a toxic corporate safety culture that was exactly the reverse of its officially stated position, and vindicate the operators who had had to endure years of cost cutting and pressure for more production from the company that was the real cause of the accident.

The Jetstar email with its implied threat of "breaking the law" suggests to me that if there is a fatigue related incident at Jetstar, they will adopt the Esso defence - "We gave instructions that fatigue was to be reported!". Of course the pilots will not be there to defend themselves.

[Mstr Caution]

Dear Bruce,

I have read your email to Jetstar pilots & do not believe your statement that no employee of "The Jetstar Group" has ever been terminated for raising safety concerns.

I would like to remind you of the termination of Bernard John McCune, Chief Engineer of Jetstar Pacific Airlines on 15th September 2009.

If you care to refresh your memory about the safety concerns of Mr McCune, you may do so at:

Employees condemn Jetstar Pacific for safety violations | Look At Vietnam - Vietnam news daily update (http://www.lookatvietnam.com/2009/11/employees-condemn-jetstar-pacific-for-safety-violations.html)

or here:

Whistleblower prompts inspection of Vietnam's Jetstar airline | Earth Times News (http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/294173,whistleblower-prompts-inspection-of-vietnams-jetstar-airline.html)

You may also wish to refresh your memory as to the comment made by the CCAV who said:


JPA had no legal grounds to fire its former chief engineer, Bernard John McCune and his colleague Digger King.


The above quote may be read at:
Safety violations exposed at Jetstar Pacific | Look At Vietnam - Vietnam news daily update (http://www.lookatvietnam.com/2010/01/safety-violations-exposed-at-jetstar-pacific.html)

Sincerely
MC

[The Kelpie]

I have been hearing some rumblings from Oxford that there are disputes between the instructors and management. Apparently they have got the British JAA (JAR) instructors over on a 457 visa teaching Australian students under the CASA system.

Is this even legal?

My understanding is that you must hold a CASA Flight Instructor Rating on a CASA commercial license to do that!!

Another example of erosion of Australian opportunities for Australian aviation workers. Then again Petteford had Buchanan down there a few weeks back to probably educate him on how to pollute further what was under GFS a reasonable training organization and cause disharmony amongst the ranks!!.

Any input would be appreciated

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[breakfastburrito]

Mstr Caution, excellent pickup.

Bernard said he was fired for raising the issues and other safety concerns to the airline.
Source:Jetstar Pacific faces safety accusations (http://www.vietnewsonline.vn/news/society/9273/jetstar-pacific-faces-safety-accusations.htm)

This goes to the heart of the Qantas/Jetstar arguments, that there are a number of robust systems in place to catch problems and there would be no consequences for those raising safety issues. Therefore, we have two clear cases (Joe Eakins & Bernard John McCune) where whistle-blowers have been sacked for raising safety concerns. A significant part of the evidence on day 4 was that this could not & would not happen.
Everything that the Qantas group argued was built on the assumption that this robust system would result in deficiencies being addressed without fear of consequences. Clearly the actual corporate behaviour is at odds with that stated under parliamentary privilege. The arguments mounted, therefore have no credibility.

[Spotl]

I have uploaded the Television Coverage of the hearings for the Senate Inquiry held on 18 March. Details can be found on the Merged: Senate Inquiry Audio and Video Linksthread

[Shell Management]

Sunfish

Sadly not all oil companies live up to the highest possible industry standards. Exxon (Esso) still fly junk and as for BP...:E Just read the works of Australia's own Prof Antony Hopkins.

Still there are some safety leaders out there.:O;):O

[psycho joe]

I must say that considering the number of advisors, secretaries etc available to the committee senators, I'm absolutely appalled at the level of ignorance displayed by senator Heffernan; Most of his questions are cringworthy at best. The hearings seem to be little more than a forum for CEO's to educate the Hon BH about their version of how it is in aviation especially with regard to 'the pilots'. The Hon BH is too ignorant to realize that he's being BS'd by the very people that he should be putting the screws on.

So far it's all been as hard hitting as as nappy wipe at ten paces.

My bet is that the Senate inquiry will conclude that the CEO's, CASA, etc assertions are all very acceptable, the pilots are just having a whinge, safety is indeed at world's best practice. Job well done, now we can all rest assured.

[Sunfish]

What do you expect Psycho? The market in Australia for aviation expertise is very limited. You can work for Qantas or VB and that is about it.

Why would anyone with jet aviation real world experience want to go up against Qantas, thereby insuring he will never be employed by them?

[Nothing but blue sky]

Well as we expected, we heard BB and his team mislead the board of senators. The cadets are only going on an Australian Cadet Contract for line training (which the cadets themselves pay for) and to gain 500hours so they can be shipped back to NZ for substandard pay.

JQ might even get out of paying the cadets for overnight allowances whilst they are in Australia now that they will be on the temporary Australian contract.

Quite interesting that they think they can do this right in front of everyone and no one will notice! Admitting that NZ only allow pilots in the RHS on RPT with a minimum of 500hours would bring up alot of questions by the senators I would imagine!

Lets be honest, how many senior checking and training captains do JQ even have? Can they all be rostered to the cadets for when they begin line training?

[CASAweary]

Let’s get down to business and the root cause of Australia’s present safety woes – CASA. In over 36 years of aviation experience around the globe I have never encountered such an immoral, corrupted, disconnected pack of inept cretins in all my life.
Firstly it was painful for me as an individual to watch Shayne Urquhart push and rally for years to have CASA cleansed after Lockhart River and after and the death of his dear daughter Sally. He endlessly petitioned and lobbied the government to fix and clean CASA, but sadly the government sat on its hands. He stood no chance from day one and he never knew it. Many of the same imbeciles who were around for that tragedy remain within their protective CASA roles today. How’s that for justice? It is disgusting. It is time for the Senator to either expand the inquiry or embark on inquiry ‘number two – the regulator’. The government has covered for CASA for decades and heads must roll at all levels. The time for accountability has arrived.
I have posted below just some issues currently taking place, but these examples of CASA’s behavior is just a sample of selected malfeasance over the past five years as anything that dates further back will be dismissed no doubt.
Let us start;
Why is CASA allowed to deliberately and purposefully harass, intimidate, punish and destroy individual’s reputations, livelihoods and businesses within the aviation sector and also within CASA’s staff ranks out of spite, incompetence, ego stroking and sheer maliciousness? Most lower level CASA employee’s within this multilayered labyrinth of incompetence along within industry agree that when issues are raised within CASA they are immediately covered up, manipulated, glossed over and hidden. What you don’t perhaps know is that the key drivers of much of this pathetic behaviour are none other than the human resource department and particularly the executive manager of corporate cervices. Yes you heard me correctly, the corporate services department including HR and finance is the ‘meat and potato‘of CASA. Nothing gets done without prior approval from this particular silo of slime. Mr. McCormack must hate it how he must beg and plead for approvals and permission to wipe his nose from HR, even though he is the director.
Also , why is CASA allowed to continue its path of cover-up’s and non-accountable actions at the most senior levels both previously and presently by management who have backgrounds notoriously based upon intimidation, segregation, harassment, bullying and general anti-social behavior along with an attitude of contempt, disregard and criminal behavior towards industry and its staff ? Ask anybody who knows a ‘former employee or two’ (and we all do) and they will tell you that each former CASA staff member hates the place with a stomach filled with burning fire. Never a kind word is purported. Ask yourself why would this be? It has been wisely suggested that any CASA staff member with more than 7 years service should be walked straight out the door. These people have been captured by their own pride, arrogance and ignorance by crossing the line between justice and criminality. They have had too long in the chair and must be cut off at the knees.

Why has and does CASA allow serving staff to take unpaid leave and work for AOC holders creating a conflict of interest, with full knowledge and approval of senior management including the executive manager of corporate services? Recently when the AOC audit of Strategic Airlines was conducted why did the CASA Brisbane field office manager agree to allow the two assigned audit FOI’s to go yachting with the Strategic CEO the weekend after the audit finished on a Friday? This same manager constantly covers up issues relating to Virgin Blue and its abysmal safety standards. The Sydney manager covers over the transgressions of Qantas and Melbourne’s field office manager actively prevents inspectors from taking punitive action against Jetstar which has some of the most serious, damning and frightening safety issues one could imagine. This is just a sample of a litany of questionable acts of misconduct. CASA management is a disgrace. Why does CASA hire back staff who resign as consultants, paying them triple the money to perform the same role they undertook weeks or months before? Again CASA’s executive manager of corporate services is privy to this rort and a proud supporter of the ‘mate’s rates scheme’. In fact his current HR representative based in Brisbane actually lives in North Queensland. She and her husband set up a HR business in North Queensland. The catch is this - because she used to work with the present serving executive manager of corporate services eons ago at a pharmaceutical company, he approved for her to travel weekly to Brisbane and commute for work with all expenses paid for by you guessed it - the unwary and none the wiser taxpayer. Nobody else is allowed this privilege and it is NOT accepted practice under CASA’s framework and accountable structure. Oh I am sure he will now come up with all sorts of spin in an attempt to cover himself now that the truth has been revealed, but the facts remain that this manager has had his hand in the cookie jar for a long time. Even recently one of his lackeys in HR resigned and left, but after 6 months decided she wanted to be ‘back in the fold’ and was given her job back – no interview, no due process, no following the public service code of conduct, he just handed it back to her no questions asked.
Many others within the iron gates of CASA are also disgusted by this managers actions as it goes against the principles of the public service act, is an act of willful and gross misconduct and should be investigated by an external body. You see you cannot trust CASA itself to act upon this information because Mr. McCormack set up an internal ECC consisting of none other than himself (director), the executive manager of corporate services, the assistant director (best mates with the corporate services executive manager) and lastly the poor old industry complaints commissioner (who surprisingly gets outnumbered) rendering her role pretty much void and useles. A beautiful system designed to cover over acts of incompetence and ritual abuse which is precisely what takes place. Anyway, now you know why Mr. Michael Hart left! Can CASA justify these actions? Also can CASA explain why many consultancy tenders are not actually advertised or tendered, rather just given to mates at very handsome rates with the corporate services executive managers approval?
Below is an extract of an article written by Paul Phelan, 22 October 2009, which pretty much covers this fact;
Industry identities this week were dismayed at a reported CASA decision to establish an in-house “Ethics and Conduct Committee,” apparently either bypassing or replacing the regulator’s Industry Complaints Commissioner (ICC).
CASA will not comment on details of the new group, understood to have been instituted by order of CASA Director John McCormick,

We asked CASA today: “I am aware that the Director has ordered the formation of an ‘Ethics & Conduct Committee’ within CASA and that the committee’s membership includes Messrs:

Terry Farquharson, who has recently been appointed Acting Executive Manager of the Office of the Director of Aviation Safety;
Jonathan Aleck, currently Head of Legal Services; and
Gary Harbor, Executive Manager, Corporate Services.
CASA advised it “can’t offer anything.”
We had also asked for missing details which would have defined the committee’s total membership, terms of reference, reporting lines, responsibilities in terms of published CASA policy, and means of ensuring its decisions will be able to be made independently of the committee members’ employers.
AviationAdvertiser holds ample documentation that reveals that at least two of the committee members we’ve named are the subject of numerous grievances currently under the scrutiny of the ICC, the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, the Federal Court, the Commonwealth Ombudsman and possibly other agencies – as well as a small mountain of even more unresolved issues.
Complainants cover the entire spectrum of industry activity within CASA’s responsibility. However we’re not identifying any of these at the moment because of the need to confer with each of the many victims, some of whom fear further adverse reactions from the regulator or from individual officials. They cover aircraft maintenance & overhaul services, aircraft and parts manufacturers, airworthiness issues, flight operations, AOC and workshop approval holders, and individual license and approval holders.
Other victims of alleged CASA abuses whose businesses and lives have been damaged by over-zealous and/or inadequately overseen, trained and supervised officials, say they are watching one of these matters – the events surrounding Polar Aviation’s lawsuit with great interest. See:
In 1996 the Attorney-General’s Department provided CASA with a legal opinion that (in part) warned that in relation to various legal actions which may be brought against CASA – such as negligence, including negligent misstatement, breach of confidence, injurious falsehood or misfeasance in public office – the government indemnity will not apply in favour of a CASA officer, where that officer is guilty of serious or willful misconduct. “The likelihood that such actions would be brought, not only on the grounds of defamation, appears very high,” said the advice.
The Polar Aviation lawsuit, which was scheduled to be the subject of a directions hearing today, seeks unquantifed damages from three named CASA officials including Mr Farquharson, from three former officials, and also from CASA itself.
Industry figures believe the environment for generating further complaints is now increasing and that the risk exists, that members of the new committee may find themselves investigating complaints against themselves, many of which are already published documents. END
Are these the actions of an organization that is being lead by competent, trustworthy management in full control, or by a conglomerate of proud conceited bigots whose morals and ethics know no bounds? Is this acceptable to the Australian taxpayers to fork out for this act of arrogance, self confidence and self indulgence as they boast about being untouchable and unaccountable?

Can the government explain why taxpayer funds are needed to pay for the remuneration of a director, assistant director, associate director and a board made up of bureaucrats that when combined together do not have the ability or intellect or ability to wipe one another’s backsides ? A conglomerate of wine sipping government funded minions bleeding the system and laughing all the way to the bank. It is common knowledge that the board is made up of senior bureaucrats out for a free feed from the money trough, appointed through the internal government ‘mate’s rates system’. Their role is to provide strategy and direction, supposedly. I don’t think so. If the director, assistant director and associate director cannot provide direction and strategy (which they haven’t so far) then CASA has no hope, and it is no wonder regulatory reform has taken 22 years and counting. Even Noah achieved more in his first 22 years of building the ark! A bunch of incompetents and wordsmiths capable of producing squat is the truth.

Can CASA explain why they recently came within a hairs breadth away from receiving a downgraded safety category in part due to cost cutting measures in reducing staff numbers in areas such as training and standards, which is actually against the requirement for ‘the state’ under ICAO annexes and the geneva convention ? Why do those decision makers including the corporate services executive manager and assistant director remain employed after orchestrating this massive balls up? In fact they gave themselves self promotion, huge salary increases and yearly bonuses! Why were some of these decision makers not people from an aviation background but again from CASA’s corporate services executive manager and his department who have grown fat on the indulgences of taxpayer funded jaunts, trips, travel and spending sprees?

Why has CASA as a government department in the past 12 months received an alarmingly and disproportionate increase in staff resignations and staff harassment actions which are stacking up against managers? There has been a jump in union membership by 23% due to a systematic campaign of bullying, harassment, intimidation and victimization by senior managers at the executive management level and above, particularly again orchestrated by the corporate services executive manager and his team of untouchable human resources lackeys ? Why do these same people boast about not having to answer to the director, the Minister of even the taxpayer, and they have also boasted that they are above the law because they make the law? Why is the level of litigation instigated from aviation community members rising monthly with the majority of these cases being for harassment and intimidation? It seems CASA does not comply with its own mantra to assist industry, provide transparency in its actions and accept accountability, yet industry is expected to do all of this? Perhaps the endless bucket of money at CASA’s disposal to fight and crush the little man has something to do with it?


Why did CASA employ a working group called ASOP who were allowed to commence 34 projects over a period of 3 years, yet not one project was completed, all at the taxpayer’s expense and no accountability was taken by senior management, particularly the now assistant director who was mostly responsible for this debacle as well as the executive manager of corporate services? It is actually still the standing joke within the walls of CASA. The assistant director recently pulled his usual stunt of ‘fiddling the books’ as he often does before a senate hearing. After the FAA threatened to downgrade CASA’s safety category he instigated a mass training exercise and put almost half a million dollars into the program. As soon as the FAA gave the ok to CASA for their mitigation strategy the assistant director cut off funding but left the projects ‘books open’ to make it appear that the project continues. He did this to fool the senate into believing that the implemented program of training is continuing. CASA does this every time ICAO or the FAA audits them, they throw a tonne of money into supposedly fixing things but slyly pull the pin on those fixes as soon as the FAA or ICAO walks away. This rort has gone on for years and wasted millions of taxpayers’ dollars which is of no concern to CASA. Dr Aleck has been instrumental in these types of smoke and mirror games since the days of Dick Smith as the CEO.
Speaking of jokes, why was a female inspector remunerated well above fellow inspectors after becoming ‘involved’ with the then DCEO of CASA as well as the then acting general manager of CASA who incidentally himself was also ‘involved’ with the current female head of human resources? All this under the watchful eye of the current deputy director and corporate services executive manager yet again. Oh dear, I see a pattern by now, don’t you? The then DCEO Mick Quinn got away with more malfeasance than imaginable due to his higher level supporter in government in Canberra.

Why has CASA learned nothing from ‘Lockhart River’ and in fact developed a systemic internal system void of any solid leadership and technically skilled inspectors? Until 12 months ago CASA did not have a structured quality training program for inspectorate staff until hearing that the FAA and ICAO were going to tear through the place again in November then they introduced a program which they pulled the pin on after the FAA went away. Can CASA explain why they are solely a reactive organization rather than an oversight body that should act predicatively to prevent accidents happening? Can the director explain why he is unable to make a sound decision on any matter without the permission of the corporate services executive manager who boasts continually about how ‘he and his staff ‘run the place as they see fit, and are proud of this fact and proud of how they laugh at how the director has his balls held between the Minister and the corporate services executive managers hands? Maybe the corproate services executive manager can explain why a ‘number of individuals’ still serving within CASA have in their current portfolio’s evidential documents and audio recordings which contain details of the executive manager of corporate services corrupt practices, non compliance with legal responsibilities, gross misconduct while performing the role of a public servant and wilful, planned and purposeful disregard for internal procedures? The individuals who hold this damning evidence are waiting for the correct moment to unleash this information, so stay tuned as it is coming.


Can CASA explain why it told a senate enquiry two years ago that it has a system in place to train inspectors (did not actually commence until thirty weeks ago), and why it did not truthfully state that it has undergone cost cutting exercises to remove the amount of inspectors, remove flying and lisense certification and endorsements for aircraft type from its inspectors so as to save money, again actioned by the executive manager of corporate services, the current assistant director and the former head of finance, who was there former partner in crime? Where is the accountability? Can CASA explain why its senior managers remain in those roles when they have multiple litigation issues pending against them internally and externally due to abysmal intimadatory behavior?


Can CASA explain why its workforce have been secretly discussing putting forward a motion of no confidence in the director, assistant director and corporate services executive manager, all who have all been campaigning against past and present staff as well as members of industry, sullying these peoples reputations and destroying individuals careers all while representing an Australian government department and Australian interests? Is this acceptable to the taxpayers of Australia? In fact members of the aviation community are providing inspectors documented proof of proven factual accounts of conspiracy and harassment from managers at the highest level of this self imploding organization. Inspectors across CASA also have and are keeping personal ‘dirt files’ which consists of evidence of bullying behavior by executive managers along with documented evidence of doctored reports and findings that are changed at the highest levels to prevent embarrassing leaks to the outside world about CASA’s softly softly approach to sweeping matters under the carpet to protect certain large operators. Your alarm bells should be ringing loud and clear by now folks. This is not fantasy, it is fact.


Is it feasible that the director of CASA be known as a bully, tyrant, and an integral part of the Cathay Pacific star chamber prior to employment with CASA, and he is a legend at harrassing, bullying and sacking innocent honest staff? Is it acceptable that the deputy director be promoted to that role while under investigation for his actions of bullying, intimidation and his preposterous dealing and manner involving a certain innocent West Australian operator and a host of others? Is it acceptable that the former DCEO of CASA be known as a drunken racist bully who promoted a female staff member he was ‘involved’ with while all the staff knew of these activities including the former CEO of CASA and executive manager of corporate services?

Executive management has deliberately, systematically and willfully turned their backs on public service laws, government laws and accountability requirements. Ritualistic and systemic abuse of staff and industry is a daily event. It is time for the public and media to accept that Ausralia has a basket case on its hands and demand answers and justice. Mr. Albanese you also have a lot to answer for. I would suggest that the memebers of the inquiry stand up and get rid of this empire of incompetence because the system has failed beyond repair. CASA senior management are a bunch of overpaid oxygen thieves bulging with greed and ego and spend their days protecting their own self interests rather than serving and protecting the travelling public. While all this takes place safety remains compromised and we draw ever closer o the inevitable major catastrophe that those inside the aviation community are aware is imminent.
Does the public know that even the government acknowledges internally that it cannot control Mr. McCormick and his arrogant disdain for fellow humans in general, hence it concocted the associate director role for Mr. Alleck? You see Mr. Farquharson, the deputy director in this charade has a mountain of litigation against him (refer to Polar Air vs CASA for starters) so he won’t ever become director. The government need a backup plan which is Mr. Alleck, a lawyer by trade who is notorious for acting slower than an injured tortoise (which incidentally costs the taxpayer millions of dollars annually in lost time through his ridiculous inept decision making) and he will step in as director the next time Mr. McCormick completely puts his foot in his mouth. Mr. Aleck is a puppet master and truly ingenious shuffler of facts and hider of truths and has for years set up distractions, untruths and fictitious data before each senate session CASA is called to. A truly horrid waste of money paying this three ringed circus to run the regulator. And let’s not forget the other facts emerging in the senate inquiry painting a thoroughly disgraceful picture of the true workings of this malfeasant government empire. Not to mention the public input and the privately backed large scale multi party action against CASA currently taking place. The situation is parlous and unmanageable.
Although I am one of many who are a victim of this draconic insepid regulatory outfit, I choose to remain annonomous not for my benefit, but for the benefit of family, friends and the god people who work at CASA who are also innocent victims in this dangerous safety chess game called CASA.

[Oxidant]

Senator Xenophon, over to you, Sir!

[Mr. Hat]

Interesting to see Alan Joyces backflip and support for the carbon tax on the 7:30 report.

I wonder if he supports Julia on that if Julia will support him on offshoring Australian jobs. A coincidence?

[Low and Fast]

G'Day all

A News link regarding pilot fatigue
BBC News - One in five pilots 'suffer cockpit fatigue' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12989834)

[breakfastburrito]

from the article (my bold):Standardising rules
At the moment, the rules for UK airlines are set by the regulator and are some of the toughest in the world. But airlines from other European countries operate under their own rules.

Not only that, but the rise of low-cost airlines has changed the way the industry works. For example, their crews will do far more take-offs and landings within their hours than pilots on long-haul flights, who spend more time cruising on autopilot.

So the European authorities want to standardise regulations across the continent.
Notice how the rules are managed to the lowest common denominator.

Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand) Act 2006 (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/legislation/amendment/index.aspx) will allow airlines to engage in regulatory arbitrage to the lowest common standard within the Australian / NZ zone.

[zone]

BBC News - Selby rail crash car driver Gary Hart blames 'fate' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-12591249)

[Mr. Hat]

"Now there are warning systems that tell you you are deviating from the correct altitude but they are not excessively loud - it would be easy enough to sleep through that, and I probably don't need to tell you what the consequences of that are."

The solution is to make them louder so they wake the pilots up as they are all too lazy and falling asleep on the job.

Balpa would like the new regulations to be set at the tougher, UK level. But other countries would be likely to object, saying that would be too much regulation and would damage their airlines

This industry has painted itself into a corner. The one thing you can't change, no matter what, is Human Factors. Humans have a limit and beyond that limit the only guarantee you have is a sharp degradation in performance.

[CASAweary]

The malfeasance continues. The latest offerings on behalf of CASA senior management as follows -

1/ The screaming skull and friends are desperately trying to pinpoint the source or identity of those tipping the dirt on the poorly run malevolent outfit. It is more like an avalanche really and is gathering momentum by the day. Unless the executives are brought to account the campaign will continue relentlessly. Rather than fix the problem CASA again choose to commence a witch hunt and intimidate staff, suspects and anybody else they choose. No laws or morals adhered to with this mob.

2/ Mr Alleck pulled the pin on several projects of late. First was CASA's setting up a training organisation similar to that which the Singaporean CAA run. Over $500 000 has thus far been spent only to be canned after the FAA and ICAO walked away happy after recent activities. Another $500 000 has been put on ice, but the project not ‘officially’ canceled, the reason being that on the books the project appears to be ongoing and as a result no uncomfortable questions are raised at the senate estimates asking where the remainder of the money is and why has a further $500 000 been flushed away. Sneaky indeed, and this has gone on for years but the time has come to open the can of worms on CASA antics and the way CASA fools the senate and ministers. No risk assessment was conducted at any stage as to the impact of any restructure, which is no surprise due to the way the whole saga has been exercised. Furthermore staff have again been screwed and industry denied a positive change. It is becoming more evident that the ASOP working group who achieved nothing in 3 years and wasted over $5 million not completing34 projects and subsequent projects oover-sighted by Mr Alleck, Mr Boyd, Mr Harbor and others is shaping up to be CASA's greatest waste of taxpayer money yet. Great work isn't it? Senators, please check the ‘real books’ and accounting practise’s over the past 10 years for a start, you may be shocked at what you find if you forensically analyze the books.

3/ Just coming to light is CASA's foreign agency branch debacle. This department ran seperate to normal operations and has provided assistance to the EU and Indonesia and contributed to several carriers regaining international status. However, Terry F, Skull and Gary H personally tore the department apart after several years operating. As a result $200 000 went down the gurgler while Alleck toyed with a restructure and staff apparently did nothing. Even worse, Alleck employed a former journalist from infrastructure to run the agency, and run it into the ground. This former journalist also destroyed PASO, and the total mess is sloppy and ongoing I have been instructed, and I have been provided with documentation. Again, no risk assessment conducted, just a bureaucrat and his personal ego and self centered pride. Very dangerous territory. This man also fancies himself as an international guru of relations yet he has caused untold damage. Even ICAO were desperate to kick him off the international counsel when he was a member. How can a thesis writer who wouldn’t know a coil from systems analysis know how to manage an aviation department?

4/ International operations. Interesting how Senator Heffernan asked Joyce about CASA and ATSB's funding and whether more funds are needed? Mr Alleck has had oversight also of that departments demise as it operates short staffed, without proper leadership and within an environment that has seen a rapid growth in low cost international operations. Many many FOI's are desperately concerned that a foreign operator with Aussies on-board is going to spear into the ground. This is what happens when CASA politicians are in charge and when they have no aviation and safety background. The hierarchy is out of control, making perilous moves when not sipping Chateau Le Blanc and eating truffles at ICAO gigs. The fish is rotting at the head Senators. Staff numbers are being cut and oversight contracted out to mates rates consultants who are not interested in safety but rather where they will but their next property investment courtesy of the taxpayer.

5/ FOI's are enduring cuts to line training, currency and type certification. This has been pushed by budget cuts enforced by senior management. Again, no risk assessment or analysis has been undertaken. Money comes first and safety last. And you think Jetstar has issues? Minimal training in any field is being provided which in turn is creating an inspectorate of underperforming staff. AWI's are not receiving latest technological training for systems.

6/ Harassment and intimidation continues from senior managers down to field office managers. A recent survey has lambasted the executives, field office managers and as usual the HR bullies. How much is enough. Numerous unions are in agreeance with the inspectorate regarding the viscous and intimidating manner in which the executives are treating staff and industry members. The Brisbane field office manager has been bullying staff verbally and intimidating staff. The Sydney and Melbourne field office managers have done the same but also added to sexual harassment to their list of misdemeanors. It is thoroughly out of control.

7/ FRMS. Fatigue is plaguing staff numbers with inspectors overloaded and burning out. Interesting is that another issue has been CASA's slapped together poor industry forums relating to FRMS which has met great disdain from industry due to the unprofessional sloppy manner it has been thrown out there. This is under the explicit direction of Terry F and P Boyd. Both these men have been instrumental in several large scale botched projects and have well and truly passed their use by date. You cannot have a former and questionable pilot and a corporate incompetent running projects any longer. Its time to go.

8/ Board members. Another drain on resources. Since the introduction of the board, demise of Byron and introduction of the Skull CASA has sunk to even lower levels of incompetence. More money is wasted and more problems exist. A board that makes glossy brochures containing a multitude of wank words does not justify its existence. Time to cut it loose.

I have been contacted with emails of support for the crusade I am championing, to those I say thank you. I also appreciate the level of encouragement and words of wisdom and warning. I fear no legal reprise, CASA already stole my livelihood. As for embarrassing the Minster, I have not done this, the Minister has done that to himself by not doing his job correctly and managing his portfolio effectively and accurately. For those of you who feel I and others merely have an axe to grind over prior minor injustices, you are far from correct. Truths will continue to be aired until the day that this whole debacle and farcical organisation is held to account. Remember one thing friends, as long as this industry's dangerous condition continues to exist, it is mine and your families who are in danger.

[Up-into-the-air]

CASA weary :D

Good work - keep it up. It is important for this information to get out into the public arena for scrutiny. It would be great if others could give further examples of this gross malfeasance.

An example of how this can be dealt with is in the CAA's at:

20AC Purported issue of authorisation

(1) A person must not purport to give a civil aviation authorisation for the purposes of the regulations unless the person is authorised under those regulations to give the authorisation.

Penalty: Imprisonment for 2 years.

(2) Without limiting subsection (1), a person is to be taken to give an authorisation for the purposes of that subsection if the person endorses the authorisation on another document (for example, endorses a rating on a licence or in a log book).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
The effect of this is two fold, as the use of any document, where the Reg [CAR] is not correctly used should expose the person who is incorrect to 20AC and this is not just about "flight strips" but all "authorisation"

[NZScion]

from the article (my bold):
Notice how the rules are managed to the lowest common denominator.

Civil Aviation Legislation Amendment (Mutual Recognition with New Zealand) Act 2006 (http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/legislation/amendment/index.aspx) will allow airlines to engage in regulatory arbitrage to the lowest common standard within the Australian / NZ zone.




There is a simple solution to this entire mess, and would ensure that the political and legislation issues within CASA are dealt with, and would ensure a uniform high standard in aviation between both Australia and New Zealand.

Simply sack everyone at CASA, and expand CAA NZ to have jurisdiction over both countries. Former CASA employees could apply for new Australian positions within the new Trans Tasman CAA, naturally with their previous experience and performance taken into account when selecting the best people for the job. The poorly written, incomplete and confusing regulations in Australia would be superseded by the New Zealand rules, which are IMHO far clearer and more sensible than the mess of Australian CARs, CAOs, and CASRs.

It has been done before (see Food Standards Australia New Zealand (http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/)), and could quite easily be done again if there were the political will. There would be natural synergies by having one regulatory structure, delivering savings on costs, and providing a more efficient service to the aviation industries and general public of both Australia and New Zealand.

Then again, I'm just a pilot, what would I possibly know about aviation?

[aussie027]

Just a FYI for all those wondering if new legislation requiring all RPT crewmembers to hold an ATPL will result from this hearing.
.

The laws signed in the USA have a 3yr compliance date from signing date.
That means they will not take mandatory effect until 1 Aug 2013.

The Colgan crash happened in mid Feb 2009, law signed July 2010 with a 3 yr window. Hardly a speedy response to the whole safety issue supposedly being helped by this law.
Whether or not it benefits safety it could and should have been enforced in a much shorter window. Reqmts for an ATPL have been around for ever, so no hidden surprises there.

In the meantime the very low hour hiring continues for all the regional min wage jobs, effective salaries being less than or close to $10-12 /DUTY HOUR for 1st several years of service as an FO. Capt are not that much better.

The law reads--

Title II, Sections 216 and 217 make up what’s referred to as the “1500 Hour Rule.” Read the complete (http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/1500-hour-rule/1500-hour-rule-explained.html#) or abbreviated (http://www.atpflightschool.com/airline_training_programs/1500-hour-rule/1500-hour-rule-explained.html#) text of these sections below.
SEC. 216. FLIGHT CREWMEMBER SCREENING AND QUALIFICATIONS.
(a)(2) MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS.—
(B) ALL FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS.—Rules issued under paragraph (1) shall ensure that, after the date that is 3 years after the date of enactment of this Act, all flightcrewmembers—
(i) have obtained an airline transport pilot certificate under part 61 of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations; and
(ii) have appropriate multi-engine aircraft flight experience, as determined by the Administrator.
SEC. 217. AIRLINE TRANSPORT PILOT CERTIFICATION.
(c) FLIGHT HOURS.—
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS.—The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(f) DEADLINE.—Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).

If it comes to pass here in Aust I wonder how long a compliance window there will be. Enough for these cadet schemes ripoffs to continue???

[Mr. Hat]

$10-12 /DUTY HOUR for 1st several years of service as an FO. Capt are not that much better.

Better off going to another industry if thats the future!

[aussie027]

Yes mr hat that is true.
Pay is quoted per min contract flt hrs which appears at approx 21-25 for a 1st yr FO for eg but that is for usually 75hrs /mo flt. at approx 40hrs duty per week that is approx 10-12/hr. Disgusting given the responsibility involved. :mad::ugh:

[Mr. Hat]

Did you see the M. Moore video on the other thread. Stirring stuff.

[TheShadow]

Message Recounts Fatigue Flying in Early Morning Hours

In an e-mail to pilots, the airline’s chief pilot for Perth, Australia, Jetstar operations, claims he is tired throughout a back-of-the-clock (midnight to 6 a.m. flight) but not fatigued. The captain for the airline admonished his fellow pilots, “Toughen up, princesses!”

The 7 January 2011 e-mail was made public at a hearing into aviation training standards by the Australian Senate. “It’s hugely concerning that we have pilots telling each other to ‘toughen up princesses’ because they raise concerns about lengthy shift hours and the impact that could have on the safety of passengers,” Senator Nick Xenophon said in a statement.

JetStar CEO Bruce Buchanan was not aware of the memorandum, to which Xenophon declared, “The potential intimidation in this e-mail is alarming and indicates that there may be a bullying culture among pilots.”

This accusation seems a stretch. If the Perth base was closed and pilots shifted to Melbourne, much of the back-of-the-clock (BOC) flying would be eliminated, to be sure. At the same time, pilots residing at in Perth would be faced with the expense of moving base (and family) to Melbourne.

It should be noted that pilots of cargo airplanes do most of their flying BOC to meet early-morning package delivery schedules.

The senior captain’s e-mail provides evidence that people are not a sound judge of their fatigue – a point made by many sleep researchers. The sleep science community argues that shift workers should be assigned schedules that avoid the effects of fatigue, as people are poor judges of their own impairment.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has unsuccessfully wrestled with the problem of pilot fatigue. In May 1988 the FAA issued a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) that proposed new regulations to combat pilot fatigue. The NPRM was a response to a National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) “Most Wanted” recommendation to update the rules for scheduling based on the science of fatigue research. Over 310 pages of solicited comments were received to the NPRM, but the FAA was unable to reconcile differing views and withdrew the NPRM in November 2009. There has been no regulatory action since, and the NTSB has characterized the FAA response as “unacceptable.” Relatives of the victims of the last fatal US airliner crash in Buffalo NY are anticipating that sweeping new laws just won’t make it past both Houses. Many Congressmen are concerned about the economic effect such grass-roots change would have upon the airlines and so the lobbying for the status quo ante is intense. The impact of preventing pilots from commuting long distances by air and road to fly their flights would hamstring airline schedulers. It’s presently manageable, even when weather intervenes. Throwing another manning spanner in the works would guarantee crewing mayhem both in the short and medium term. As is often the case, one fix can beget another rupture elsewhere. Even the majority of pilots can themselves argue for a “let sleeping dogs lie” solution. The extent of the lawmaker’s thorny problem can be seen indepth at Pilot fatigue bill stalls in Congress (http://tinyurl.com/6jatvq9)

The JQ Senior Pilot’s email merely encapsulates a similar dilemma. Pilots must play ball or face undefined career consequences for being disruptive. Suppression of fatigue via the fear factor is no solution. But bursting into e-print on the subject is also no doubt destined to distort one’s career path. Fatigue remains the great unspoken. Better that one should claim to be “tired and emotional” (a popular euphemism for hung-over). At least Senior Pilots will appreciate that you didn’t want to run the risk of getting breathalysed planeside - and will endorse your staying away as a wise decision. However just being “tired” is apparently no excuse…. and evinces a certain shameful lack of stamina (and a deficiency of the “right stuff”).

Below, the “toughen up” e-mail in all its colorful glory:

RE: DPS-SIN-PER-MEL-PER Pairing
[Flight schedule from Denpasar, Singapore, Perth, Melbourne and back to Perth]

Sent: Friday, January 7, 2011, 1:15 AM

This e-mail comes with a warning! If you are easily offended then delete this e-mail and read no further.

Toughen up princesses!

You aren’t fatigued, you are tired and can’t be bothered going to work.

The hardest thing about doing [flight] JQ117 backed up by the BOC [back of the clock, e.g. from midnight to 6 a.m.] is the time away from the family. There is ample time for rest if you utilize it correctly. I understand this is easy to say but sacrifices have to be made. We are all shift workers and that doesn’t always fit in with normal life. If you became an airline pilot thinking that you will be home every night and not have to fly through the night, then that is pretty naive. Might be time to go instructing.

I agree that the current BOC is a horror shift, but let’s look at the big picture. JQ [JetStar] now has about 50 odd airplanes. Airplanes don’t make money sitting on the tarmac, they need to keep flying. I have no idea how it works obtaining [airport] slots but I’m sure JQ can’t just have flights going to where they want, when they want. There must only be certain slots available which scheduling must then somehow work out how to fill. This current BOC is a combination of 2 MEL shifts which we have been given to fill a gap until further international routes, or domestic, become available. There is a high probability that we will only be doing this shift until mid year (fingers crossed!).

Now the powers to that be could have used this as a perfect opportunity to down-size the base, or even close it. But it shows that JQ is committed to the base and want it to work. Having said that, if I was Bruce and a bunch of pilots, who have taken a lot of days off, only fly 60-75 hours a month, started to call in ‘fatigued’ and didn’t want those days to come out of personal leave days, then I would start to look at other options. If flights started to be cancelled, then I would not hesitate in closing the base and have all flying done from MEL. Be careful of what you wish for!

In the last 4 weeks I have done 7 BOCs, 2 lots of back to back and one after JG117. I personally found the back to back the hardest and after JQ117 no dramas. By trial and error, I have worked out what works for me so I can manage the shift. I can say I hate the shift and I definitely don’t operate to my normal standard. I am tired throughout the shift, feel terrible, but would not call it fatigued.

All I ask is that you give the BOC flying a go and do everything that you can to make sure you are rested before the duty. If you honestly believe you can’t operate safely, not just because you feel terrible, then call in UFD [unfit for duty]. But it is UNFIT FOR DUTY! I can’t see how it can not be taken from your personal leave. I don’t see how it can be right that if you couldn’t get enough rest, for whatever reason, call in UFD then get a free day off. In the mean time I get called in off a standby. If I then refuse the duty I will be in all sorts of trouble. JQ rosters the required rest, you must use it but if still unfit for duty, then you are unfit for duty which needs to come out of your sick leave.

We have it pretty easy over here. Try Darwin for a while with 4 BOCs in a row, or MEL with 4 earlies followed by a late and while doing 100 hours. Then tell me how hard it is to do JQ117 followed by the BOC. I will warn you again, don’t be surprised to see more pairings of double BOCs! Again, be careful of what you wish for.

By the way, to steal a line from a classic [movie, Top Gun],

“I’ve been holding on too tight.” I have thrown in my Base Pilot wings, effective from Feb. I tell you now because I don’t want you to think I’m running from all the flak I’m about to receive. Give me your best shot!

I have written this not from a Base Pilot role, but from a pilot who hasn’t lost touch with reality and who wants this Perth base to work.

Cheers.

[gruntyfen]

This is your captain sleeping: How exhausted pilots snooze at the controls (and two of them even had a nap at the same time)


By Ray Massey (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?s=y&authornamef=Ray+Massey)
Last updated at 11:52 AM on 7th April 2011


Comments (63) (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374242/This-captain-sleeping-How-exhausted-pilots-snooze-controls-nap-time.html#comments)
Add to My Stories (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374242/This-captain-sleeping-How-exhausted-pilots-snooze-controls-nap-time.html)



Pilots are falling asleep in the cockpits of UK passenger jets, a report suggests.
Nearly half of easyJet pilots surveyed said they were suffering from significant fatigue and a fifth reported that their abilities were compromised in flight more than once a week.
Alarmingly, two pilots on the same British-registered plane admitted falling asleep at the same time – risking a mid-air collision.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/07/article-1374242-0083A5D400000258-633_468x384.jpg Falling asleep on the job: The study showed one in five pilots felt fatigued, though the union says the problem is 'systemic' across the aviation industry

The study, published today, was commissioned by the British pilots’ union, Balpa, and carried out by University College London.
One pilot, who works for a large UK airline but did not want to be named, said that about three months ago, both he and his co-pilot had very little sleep during their rest period.

More...



Motorist was so drunk he drove four miles without realising he had a wheel missing (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1373885/Motorist-drunk-drove-wheel-missing-4-miles.html)


On the subsequent flight, his co-pilot asked if he could take a nap, which the pilot approved. But then the pilot fell also asleep for about ten minutes.
The study of 492 pilots showing one in five felt fatigued at least once a week was carried out among easyJet pilots, though the union says the problem is ‘systemic’ across the aviation industry.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/04/07/article-0-0AD06C31000005DC-475_468x286.jpg Damning: easyJet pilots were quizzed in the study, which was commissioned by the British pilots' union, Balpa

The example in which two pilots fell asleep together in the cockpit involved another airline.
Speaking to the BBC, the pilot said his co-pilot had legitimately requested a ‘power nap’.
Neither had slept during their rest period because of shift patterns. The pilot said: ‘About 10 or 15 minutes into that “power nap” I got to the point where I could not keep my eyes open any more. I convinced myself it would be fine if I just shut my eyes for a couple of seconds.
‘I woke up with a start maybe five or ten minutes later. And the aircraft had been flying itself for that time.
‘The first thing you do obviously is to check your height and your speeds and all of your instrumentation, and hopefully everything has performed normally while you’ve been asleep – while both of you have been asleep.’
He said: ‘When I woke up, it was a big adrenaline rush.
‘The worst scenario is that the autopilot would disconnect itself and then the aircraft would lose or gain height and that would be extremely dangerous as you’d go into the path of oncoming aircraft.
‘Now there are warning systems that tell you you are deviating from the correct altitude but they are not excessively loud – it would be easy enough to sleep through that, and I probably don’t need to tell you what the consequences of that are.’
Balpa is worried the situation will get worse under European proposals that would see the maximum flying time for UK pilots going up from 900 hours in a 12-month period to 1,000.
But European authorities claim the proposed changes will not lead to a reduction in safety.
EasyJet said last night that it did not recognise the union’s findings and insisted it complied fully with all safety regulations.

Read more: This is your captain sleeping: How exhausted pilots snooze at the controls (and two of them even had a nap at the same time) | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1374242/This-captain-sleeping-How-exhausted-pilots-snooze-controls-nap-time.html#ixzz1IpllTwZs)

[KRUSTY 34]

I guess there's at least 2 interpretations to this Base manager's email.

1/ That of intimidation in an effort to strongarm the rank and file into toeing the company line.

2/ The desire to protect his, and if you are to believe the inferrance, the Perth base itself.

Personally, I feel he is leaning towards point 2.

Whatever their personal reasons may be, I can't help but wonder where Jetstar pilots think they are heading? I know it's tough moving base, and we all know the realities of airline flying can differ wildly from what people generally think. I have let opportunities pass, mainly because I was unwilling to uproot my family, and I have no regrets. But when a pilot advocates a pattern of work that has drawn complaint due to it's fatigueing nature, and by his own admission is hatefull and tiring, all because the alternatives are viewed as worse, then what the hell have we come to? :rolleyes:

Onya Jetstar!

Onya Boys!

[aviationboy]

1 in 5 pilots are fatigued? A lot more than that......

Airlines don't care though, as long as it is legal. Some of the **** they roster here shouldn't be legal....

[Sunfish]

It will take at least Three heavy jet crashes to change the system.

The first will be put down to happenstance - Australia has had a good safety record, but statistically we cannot completely avoid the possibility that........... In other words; accidents happen.

CASA and ATSB will make suitable noises.

The second crash will be put down to coincidence - a statistical blip.

Questions will however be asked, and it is possible a Royal Commission will get up, but One headed by a "Tame" commissioner to keep the government and CASA safe.

The Third crash will arouse the public and will result in a full blooded Royal Commission, at which point it might be possible to effect change in the regulatory climate and regulatory structure that allowed such accidents to occur.

All allegations made against CASA will be met with calls for "natural justice" and "procedural fairness" to be afforded all CASA staff under scrutiny, irrespective of the fact that these same courtesies have allegedly never been granted by CASA to industry participants in the past.

[Tutaewera]

Sunfish is on the ball in my view. No real vision in CASA that I can see...:yuk:

CASAweary IMHO you speak the truth, and it sounds like you have inside info well beyond mine. The issue for me has always been a complete lack of national standardisation for the application of Regs, CAO's etc. Its always (IME) been a case of local opinion being enforced (or bullied) as "regulation".

If an AWI, ATI or FOI takes a dislike to you or your organisation they can simply make up any BS they feel like (often its just whatever their last employer did) as a "requirement" using the pitifully vague and open Ozzie aviation reg system as justification. Unless the AOC holder has the $$ and balls to take them on in court they have no choice but to do whatever the ego of that CASA staff member demands. Good job that in WA some operators are doing just that. In my view CASA has operated like a rogue agency, and its about time they got taught a lesson...:D

In the recent past that wasn't so bad as under Bruce Byron CASA's job was to consult and assist / guide operators, so together the industry got the job done in a positive way. But now, under what others have described to me as the abusive egomaniac now running the show it seems to be more like "attack the industry", whether the CASA staff members views are correct or not. Maybe simply to show Zeno and co that CASA is actually doing "something", even if the "something" is way off base...

I pity the poor FOI's and AWI's given that "fun" job now. If I was them I'd get all my assetts out of my name ASAP, as I have a feeling industry is about to strike back. CASA staff who exceed their powers, etc will have no legal protection from their employer... ;)

Under the FAA (or the similar kiwi system) there is a logical framework of rules, supported by detailed AC's. That way the law is the law and any FOI/AWI who tries going beyond them can be bollocked. Its not totally prescriptive, there is room to make up your own methods of compliance.

I am amazed at how long the process of regulatory reform is taking here. Guess its great for CASA's legal team. There jobs will last for ever at this rate... Another poster suggested sacking all of CASA and adopting the well developed NZ rule system, then getting CASA staff to reapply for their jobs under a new regulatory framework. Sad to to say but maybe theres some wisdom in that idea. How about some pollies show some balls and do just that? :ok:

Maybe when Zeno is finished with his current rave he can get into CASA? In my view they need it. IMHO they are a big part of our industry problems...

[LT Selfridge]

eQGLCe0pHpY

[Mr. Hat]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ


Pilots on Food Stamps | MichaelMoore.com (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/mikes-blog-1-pilots-food-stamps)

By Michael Moore

This week, the new 'Mike & Friends Blog' section will be added to MichaelMoore.com. In additional to my blog, I have asked a few people, like Rep. Marcy Kaptur (the Democrat from Toledo who has deservedly become the star of my movie!) and Leah Fried (who helped organize the sit-down strike at Republic Windows and Doors in Chicago), to blog here on my site. Here's a sneak peek of my first blog post. Enjoy! -- MM

We're on the descent from 20,000 feet in the air when the flight attendant leans over the elderly woman next to me and taps me on the shoulder.

"I'm listening to Lady Gaga," I say as I remove just one of the ear buds. I know not this Lady Gaga, but her performance last week on SNL was fascinating.

"The pilots would like to see you in the cockpit when we land," she says with a southern drawl.

"Did I do something wrong?"

"No. They have something to show you." (The last time an employee of an airline wanted to show me something it was her written reprimand for eating an in-flight meal without paying for it. "Yes," she said, "we have to pay for our own meals on board now.")

The plane landed and I stepped into the cockpit. "Read this," the first officer said. He handed me a letter from the airline to him. It was headlined "LETTER OF CONCERN." It seems this poor fellow had taken three sick days in the past year. The letter was a warning not to take another one -- or else.

"Great," I said. "Just what I want -- you coming to work sick, flying me up in the air and asking to borrow the barf bag from my seatback pocket."

He then showed me his pay stub. He took home $405 this week. My life was completely and totally in his hands for the past hour and he's paid less than the kid who delivers my pizza.

I told the guys that I have a whole section in my new movie about how pilots are treated (using pilots as only one example of how people's wages have been slashed and the middle class decimated). In the movie I interview a pilot for a major airline who made $17,000 last year. For four months he was eligible -- and received -- food stamps. Another pilot in the film has a second job as a dog walker.

"I have a second job!," the two pilots said in unison. One is a substitute teacher. The other works in a coffee shop. You know, maybe it's just me, but the two occupations whose workers shouldn't be humpin' a second job are brain surgeons and airline pilots. Call me crazy.

I told them about how Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger (the pilot who safely landed the jet in the Hudson River) had testified in Congress that no pilot he knows wants any of their children to become a pilot. Pilots, he said, are completely demoralized. He spoke of how his pay has been cut 40% and his own pension eliminated. Most of the TV news didn't cover his remarks and the congressmen quickly forgot them. They just wanted him to play the role of "HERO," but he was on a more important mission. He's in my movie.

"I hadn't heard anywhere that this stuff about the airlines is in this new movie," the pilot said.

"No, you wouldn't," I replied. "The press likes to talk about me, not the movie."

And it's true. I've been surprised (and slightly annoyed) that, with all that's been written and talked about "Capitalism: A Love Story," very little attention has been paid the mind-blowing stuff in the film: pilots on food stamps, companies secretly taking out life insurance policies on employees and hoping they die young so the company can collect, judges getting kickbacks from the private prison industry for sending innocent people (kids) to be locked up. The profit motive -- it's a killer.

Especially when your pilot started his day at 6am working at the local Starbucks.

This is where we're heading:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL3QV5XK4g8


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gqPH8UZWcw&feature=related

Watch The Full Program | Flying Cheap | FRONTLINE | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flyingcheap/view/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid)

One for the Engineers and the next Inquiry: Flying Cheaper - Video | FRONTLINE | PBS (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/flying-cheaper/?utm_campaign=viewpage&utm_medium=grid&utm_source=grid)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekedrXxqVck

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9CWVMXXQf8&feature=fvwrel

[Spotl]

Mr Hat,

I worked out that you just click on the 'You Tube' at the beginning and delete the 'You Tube at the end to give you one picture only. Maybe, if you just copy the URL it will do, but I haven't tried that yet!

[KRUSTY 34]

Gidday Spotl.

Great work by the way, and thank's for your efforts.

Any luck yet with the Youtube deletion of the day 5 senate enquiry?
Hope it's back up soon, :ok:

[Spotl]

Krusty 34

I've upload the television coverage of day 4 (18 March) and day 5 (31 March). I had to re-do them as I had a problem with 'You Tube'. If you can view all uploads for 'U333able' it should show them.

[The Kelpie]

A couple of extra documents on the senate inquiry submissions webpage including the bent truths and lies to all of the questions on notice.

This is your last chance guys to influence the report by sending the committee evidence to discredit these responses!!

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[Low and Fast]

What's that website address Kelpie?

[Mr. Hat]

Highly recommend watching the full version of the frontline videos. Some pretty scary similarities.

I always say that the US is like a crystal ball. You can see what Australia is going to be like in 20 years by observing what happens there.

Cable TV
Low Cost Carriers
Private Health Care System

The list goes on. Watch the videos and you see what I mean.

[The Kelpie]

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Submissions Received (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/submissions.htm)

[Low and Fast]

Thanks Kelpie

[Frank Burden]

CASAWeary,

I must say that your posts regarding CASA are most interesting. It seems it is a hotbed of intrigue and a bit of the hanky panky heaven. It seems in Brisbane circuit work means a bit more than just driving down the road to the building. Rumpy pumpy they like to bumpy!

How do you get a job there! I need some power to abuse, a good pay to live the high lifestyle, and a bit of the compliant you know what on the side - as long as Mrs Frank doesn't find out! Maybe I could live in Bali and commute to Melbourne for work. Every sixth week would be just fine!

Quick, where do I sign? Even if I have to put up with an abusive personality (i met him once and he was all crooked smiles), a treacherous (was he lecherous as well?) personality, a smart aleck (who has never made a decision in his life), and a bottom of the harbour toe cutter (with the lithesome debutante assistant (your story so far I think) then it might be not so bad as long as I can get a piece of something.

Can't wait for the next thrilling episode.

Off to annoy Mrs Frank as I have got quiet excited thinking about rumpy, pumpy, they like to bumpy.

Normally cranky Franky but today I just want hanky panky.

Frank

[Roller Merlin]

A recent televised report on how pilot fatigue is resulting from commercial drive, regulator inaction, and industry denial:

YouTube - Pilot Fatigue and Crash Pads 2/9/2011


Cast ahead a few year years and this could be equally be report about the Oz industry be unless CASA regulates industry behavior which is the cause into the dustbin. Alternatively we could have a fatigue-related hull loss and Royal Commission to achieve same .... the Senate enquiry has put this right on JMac's lap.

[Mr. Hat]

Mods, many good You tube videos get lost into the history pages. Is there any chance of setting up a generic sticky that holds them all once they get past a certain date or something similar?

Just an idea. Its a shame to see them disappear given that many new members may benefit from them.

[stewser89]

Spotl- Thanks for the youtube upload

Does anyone know what exemptions to CAO 48 has Casa granted to J* ?
EDIT: Also what concession does J* have to perform to meet these exceptions

IF the 42, 000 is incorrect where did it come from?
EDIT: DW just heard BB say that it was the based on the minimum hours stipulated.

[The Kelpie]

I have just been sent this intelligence


Threats
Just a heads up, Monique Neetson-Lemkes just got a threatening anonymous letter in her Sydney crew room pidgeon hole. Its says:
" You have had your 15 minutes of fame now be prepared for 15 minutes of hell."

It obviously wouldnt be from her peers as every cabin crew supports her stand on this.



Monique you must report this to management, direct to Buchanan and Joyce and advise the committee, I would suggest Nick Xenophon.

You have all our support!!

The kelpie

[Agrajag]

A wee prediction, if I may, regarding the next gambit:

Airline CEOs to be seen rubbing shoulders with the great and the good, kissing babies and rescuing puppies in some third-world slum. It will of course all take place under the gaze of the cameras.

This will be an attempt to rehabilitate the public image, recently taken a battering in the Senate and the media, and will be at the behest of a PR adviser engaged for the task. Get out and mingle with the common folk; that's the ticket.

If I turn out to be right, strong stomachs will be needed among the readership!

[Sunfish]

Nah. Xenophon will lose his Chairmans lounge privileges.

[Shed Dog Tosser]

During Mr Borghetti's interview he stated that Virgin as a whole was not having trouble recruiting experienced pilots.

Why then would they be starting a Cadetship :ugh: ?.

Someones been bull****ing.

[KRUSTY 34]

They're CHEAP!

[Nothing but blue sky]

Net AUD Pay for J* Cadets: average 850hours p/yr

Factoring in CPI 3% per year (no clause in NZ contract for yearly adjustments)

Yr 1: $25,522
Yr 2: $24,624
Yr 3: $23,751
Yr 4: $30,971
Yr 5: $29,914
Yr 6: $28,887

This is after they incur $213,000 in debt training.....

Anyone worried??

[breakfastburrito]

It is precisely because of the $213,000 debt that the cadets must accept these rates of pay, this is debt bondage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage). New and creative ways will be found to further indebt these cadets throughout their careers to keep them on the hook. Welcome to the first world slave trade.
Debt bondage is classically defined as a situation when a person provides a loan to another and uses his or her labor or services to repay the debt; when the value of the work, as reasonably assessed, is not applied towards the liquidation of the debt, the situation becomes one of debt bondage
Source:wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt_bondage)

Anyone signing on the dotted line has literally mortgaged their lifetimes future labour to the Qantas group from which they will profit handsomely.

[Nothing but blue sky]

Maybe on the regionals you'd put up with it! But flying an A320 >m.75 not sure if the pax would be impressed with who is up front! The majority of the cadets are 19-20 years old, are they really going to be in the RHS in 18months????

Chance's of the cadets leaving after they have sufficient ICUS time to unlock their ATPL??

[Lookleft]

Kelpie have you any knowledge on the timetable for the final report? In case anyone thinks that the whole thing has been a complete waste of time there have already been changes at J* because of the inquiry. All of a sudden new EBA commands have been announced because they realise that flogging the pilots is attracting public attention. I even had a passenger ask me how long my duty had been as they got off!

I also think that there won't be any "toughen up princess" emails sent out. The only thing that will allow the situation to return to pre-inquiry times is apathy by all pilots.

As for the anonymous letter sent to the J* F/A who spoke before the committee it is just an example of how low some people can go. I doubt that it has come from J* the organisation but her testimony has obviously touched a raw nerve with someone. I would not be surprised if it results in a police investigation.

[High_To_Low]

Anyone in the know in JQ advise as to whether they have announced positions for both captain's and fo's for JQ Australia in the last few days?
Possible chances for the hold file boys to get on the Aussie EBA?

[tryhard1]

I believe that particular cabin crew member is also known for exaggerating situations, so perhaps a grain of salt could be taken with that event. I find it hard to believe that someone would be so stupid to write that to her.

But if it is true, I hope it is sent to the police to address this situation, and the appropriate workplace bullying notification given to HR.

[breakfastburrito]

Chance's of the cadets leaving after they have sufficient ICUS time to unlock their ATPL??
Nothing but blue sky, this is the clever part of the scheme, they can leave... provided they can cough up the balance of the $85,000+ debt owed to j*. If they do leave, & don't have the dough (they won't because of the below minimum wage and training repayments) then I'm sure j* will pursue them vigorously through the court system (they already have form:Pilot who failed test must pay for training: Court (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-reporting-points/424952-pilot-who-failed-test-must-pay-training-court.html)). Whilst these proceedings are occurring will the pilot be permitted to travel overseas by the courts?

There are only two exceptions: the first is those with wealthy families who can "buy them out", the second, another operator pays the "transfer fee" (balance). I find the second option highly unlikely.

As you can see, the instant the ink is dry on the training contract, the game for them is over for these cadets.

[mcgrath50]

But where will they go? J* won't employ them on the EBA, QF I doubt will employ them after leaving J*, VB will have their own cadets/GA DE. So if they want to be in an airline in Australia it's Tiger or a regional...

[Nothing but blue sky]

So even thou Jetstar are directly involved with the recruitment process and conduct the final 1hr interview of the cadets (they cut 12 from the 26 OAA had selected for the program), they accept no risk whatsoever...

If the cadet gets all the way to the end of his/her line training and for some reason cannot get to the required standard in the required time set by jetstar, they bear the total cost of the entire program without a job...!

Fill me in as this does not seem right at all...

[KRUSTY 34]

You've answered your own question 'Blue Sky.

It's not right, at All!

[breakfastburrito]

they accept no risk whatsoever...

If the cadet gets all the way to the end of his/her line training and for some reason cannot get to the required standard in the required time set by jetstar, they bear the total cost of the entire program without a job...!

Fill me in as this does not seem right at all...
Nothing but blue sky - Why would j* bear any risk when they apparently can find enough patsy's who will? This is the whole point, there's a sucker born every minute. j* are a business, part of business is risk management and or shifting (usually to the taxpayer, but that's for another day) and that is exactly what they are doing. Fair, reasonable & conscionable? No, legal, probably yes. j* are preying on the ignorance of the brutal reality of this industry.

Those that fail to due their due diligence are in for the shock of their lives. As I said, the instant the ink from their signature is dry on the contract, the $$ meter starts and it get progressively harder to walk away from the ever increasing accumulated debt.

Why anyone would sign up for this deal is beyond me.

[Icarus2001]

So is it at all possible that once this reality becomes apparent to the first few cadets in the system that the word will get around and fewer people will apply?

I have mentioned before that all this is an experiment by Onestar to see if they can make it work and to see how low they can go. If numbers are insufficient they will tweak the package to make it more attractive by tiny increments. At the same time VB and Tiger will be watching closely to see how it works. If they can copy it they will.

[Nothing but blue sky]

Lets hope these initial cadets figure it out and speak up before they sign the dotted line!

Its seems that they haven't done their homework at all, just happy to use all their FEE-HELP on flying and worry about all that later...

READ the contract guys and gals, look at the monopoly provider that you are paying for training... I know you are told you might be a fully fledged FO in 6 years BUT how many of you will even make it?

You could really make the rest of your life a serious challenge... If the airline's are going to offer cadetships they need to seriously re-evaluate the Terms and Conditions!

All of you that are participating now and not speaking up are ruining it for your mates and those to come.. We need a fix!

[breakfastburrito]

Yes, correct Icarus on all counts there, however:
So is it at all possible that once this reality becomes apparent to the first few cadets in the system that the word will get around and fewer people will apply?

Future prospective cadets will need to be cunning to find out the information. BB stated quite clearly at the inquiry that the cadets would be earning AUD $67K - this is correct until they have the required 500 hours, then they will be shipped off to NZ. BB stated is NZ is where they want them to be. Then, the NZ $42K contract comes into play. So technically he is correct, over a short time scale.

Further, a real AUD contract can be plonked down in front of the future cadet, without telling him that this will be for the first 500 hours only. Once the contract is signed, its too late.

There are very few genuine sources of information (PPRuNe is probably the only one) that would allow a future cadet to make an informed decision. It is easy for us, as we understand the angles. Even sleuthing on PPRuNe would be a difficult slog to get to the bottom of this mess as it is highly convoluted, with so many gotchas. This is quite a sophisticated con.

edit: NBBS, just caught your post. I assume by "Initial cadets" you mean those already in the j* system? If this is the case, it is already too late for them, they have signed on the dotted line. They are on the hook. As for saving your mates, the first rule is to save yourself before you help anyone else, they are already screwed. Hello servitude.

[Kelly Slater]

Please, please ,please stop calling these schemes and scams cadetships. They are not. Using the word helps to make them legitimate. If everyone referred to them as "supposed cadetships" more people would look more closely at what is going on.

If a company offers a person a real cadetship, said company invests both money and time in the cadet. The company pays for and provides education and training for the cadet. The company does not try and turn a profit from him.

[Nothing but blue sky]

Yeah I figured when BB mentioned the AUD$87,000 that the cadets will be employed on in AUS would only be for the line-training and for them to spend time with a senior captain until they have the required time to go back to NZ.. The smart one's will use this time to payoff as much of their debt as possible in this time! Not go out and blow it because they are flying a jet living at home!

Correct me if I'm wrong but their will be a number of cadets both from the ab initio program and ACP (oxford and CTC) to commence line training next year then be shipped to NZ! Is there even room in J* NZ to cope will this large influx of cadet pilots??

[Nothing but blue sky]

Noted KS... All though the so called cadets are paying a third party organization wholly for their training they believe themselves to be cadets and are employed under a cadet contract!

[gobbledock]

Please, please ,please stop calling these schemes and scams cadetships.

I agree, lets for argument sake call it the 'airline initiatives model', sounds a lot more positive than what it really is. The same pilots employed under the 'airline initiatives model' will not only remain eternally bondaged to debt (Breakfastburrito as usual is right on the money, to coin a phrase) but they will be further endebted to - An etrnally maxed out credit used to pay for food, fuel, a possible mortgage and the once a year beer. Then add to the equation the Harvey Norman 'furniture on credit' scam, Radio Rentals TV, electricity, water, rates and rego (by the way all inceasing well above and beyond the CPI, unlike there meagre salary) and you have the makings of the next generation of depressants, suiciders and fractured marriages and families.
Lets not forget that these guys are going to have to work several jobs just to put bread on the table, they will be having minimal rest breaks between shifts , but of course this won't impact safety or fatigue at all will it ?
Yep, a successful system indeed.

P.S An associate informs me that Fort Fumble has recently advertised internally for you guessed it 'CADETS' ! True story.

[Sunfish]

What you guys need to understand is the American "for profit" education system which is being applied here. Poor folk pay $40,000 in loans to get qualified as "Medical assistant" or "Dental receptionist" - meaningless non transferable qualifications.

I submit that an MPL is exactly the same.

Workers of the world.........

[The Kelpie]

Some good discussion going on elsewhere on the forum

http://www.pprune.org/interviews-jobs-sponsorship/445281-easyjet-new-ab-initio-scheme.html

Anyone spot the common denominator between this business model and the jetstar scam here in oz?

More to follow

The kelpie


Ps to answer an earlier question re the inquiry report, no idea but believe it is May sometime! I also understand that Jetstar may have an appointment with a tribunal over attempts to allow 'foreign' employees to fly in Australia under anything other than the EBA! Watch this space!!

[Mr. Hat]

John Lamings submission sums up the schemes better than anything else. He hits the nail square on the head.

[Mr. Hat]

The Inquiry has put a temporary spotlight on the industry and its "leaders" industrial tactics. These so called leaders have barely even noticed it, just a couple of days in a busy cost cutting schedule. A small speed hump in a long journey to get the best possible strategy to ensure the lowest possible conditions. Once finished it is my opinion that things will not only return to normal if anything in the long term it may get worse. It will give these leaders more confidence, power and knowledge as they will now know the boundaries and consequences of top level public scrutiny. If Senator Xenophon and co don't make drastic and sweeping changes we will wish that the Inquiry had never taken place.

More scrutiny and pressure on individual pilots.
More information for leaders to base industrial decisions on.

If you want a good professional/family life choose carefully which list you get your name on. The colourful screens and fancy cockpits will wear off and soon it will just be a means to generating income for a mortgage. Hard to believe at 18 years of age.

Ultimately working for a company who's entire focus is cost cutting isn't going to prove to be an enjoyable experience for 40 years is it?

[Roller Merlin]

Hansard for 31March enquiry hearing is now up on the Senate website:

Parliament of Australia: Senate: Committees: Rural Affairs and Transport Committee: Inquiry into Pilot training and airline safety including consideration of the Transport Safety Investigation Amendment (Incident Reports) Bill 2010: Public hearings a (http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rat_ctte/pilots_2010/hearings/index.htm)

[Nothing but blue sky]

So where to from here? any more hearings?

[The Kelpie]

Nbbs

Negative!!

Cheers

Kelpie

[havick]

well that was an anti-climax.

I'll eat my hat if any significant changes are actually made in the industry for the better

[Nothing but blue sky]

Thanks for all your had work throughout this Kelpie... lets hope that changes are made for the better!

I hate to say it but it seems, with aviation at the moment, its like trying to catch a falling knife... Anyone thats smart enough to be a pilot would surely realize this, there's plenty of other opportunities out there!

[Jabawocky]

A bit late now for this suggestion, but a visit from Mr Sullenberger to the inquiry explaining where the US has gone wrong and the path taken here is the same would no doubt have generated mass public attention. In addition to that he makes a very good presenter of the facts.

It's worth bringing in a consultant some times, and when you need buckets of public credibility to get the greater community worked up it's worth it.

Might be worth sponsoring Senator X a trip to meet Sully to discuss. Sure it's a bit of a publicity stunt as well but that's what you need to keep the heat turned up.

[Mr. Hat]

I suggested it probably six months ago... clearly it didn't happen.

[Muff Hunter]

I know for a fact that Sully was approached by one of the unions, but he was unavailable. Shame really!

[The Kelpie]

The matter of requesting Sully to appear I understand was raised but considered (not by me) to be 'too hard'

An opportunity sorely missed in my opinion.

The Kelpie

[Mr. Hat]

The fact they tried is good enough for me.

[Jabawocky]

Good enough.........but no cigar!

Perhaps it needed to be worked on a bit harder to get something to happen. Video link even.

But getting the press on his face in Oz would be the ultimate.

[Wally Mk2]

To those guys/gals who have been in this industry for years..............did you really think this 'circus act' inquiry would really go anywhere positively?
'Mr Hat' said it all:)

It's inevitable that aviation will just be another ordinary job some day.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!

50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.

With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...:sad:
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.


Wmk2

[Roller Merlin]

Ben Sandilands latest:

The ‘not the Qantas’ news brought to you by the ABC
Posted: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 20:41:50 +0000
The ABC has led mainstream media into the Alice-in-Wonderland world of Not Qantas nonsense that Real Qantas has been struggling to reconcile itself with in terms of official statements since a minor incident at Sydney Airport on Wednesday morning.

To quote from that story:

Qantas says the Boeing 737 with the flight number QF50 that made an emergency landing at Sydney Airport on Wednesday was not really a Qantas flight at all.

The plane was flown by wholly owned, New Zealand-based Qantas subsidiary Jetconnect.

We’ve been there for a while now, including yesterday, in relation to the Jetconnect tax and wages dodge involving an allegedly totally independent NZ company that just happens to be completely owned by Qantas and even calls itself The Spirit of Australia.

But the indifference of the mainstream media to anything about Qantas that doesn’t come predigested and Chairman’s Lounge friendly in a press release has at least been given a shake by the national public broadcaster. This is refreshing.

[Up-into-the-air]

QANTAS or JETCONNECT :rolleyes:

Well QANTAS - one way it is legal, the other is in conflict with Section 28 of the CAA. The other is simply in conflict with REG. 210/ 206

Come on the legal eagles in the unions, do your homework please - at least draw CASA's attention to this.

CASA is also guilty by not pursuing a matter of public importance [misfeasance again??] - or is it simply big boys and their toys??.

Perhaps Sen. X?? could ask the question.

[Macchi 408]

Finally some mainstream media has caught on! Now let's hope the other's follow suit... :E

[Mstr Caution]

Airline codes-J - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_codes-J)

I would have thought if the flight was a "Jetconnect" callsign & operated as the airline designator code QNZ. Then it would be a jetconnect flight codesharing for Qantas (QF).

The absence of the QNZ designator & callsign, combined with the conditions of carriage on the QF website stating that QF, QFLink & Jetconnect services are Qantas services pretty much sums it up.

[Up-into-the-air]

QF and JETCONNECT

Have a look at the AOC for JETCONNECT - shows Business name as "QANTAS", however, is this registered in NZ by QANTAS, or by JC.

The issue is the Trades Practices Act, and that there is to be "no Confusion" for the user of a service.

[Icarus2001]

When punters fly on a 717 from Cairns, Darwin, Perth etc, they get a red tail and cabin crew dressed like QF. On the boarding pass is a note "operated by National Jet" and I believe the aircraft have some sign writing adjacent to 1L which can be seen on boarding.

Do Jetconnect do these things?

[NZScion]

I would have thought if the flight was a "Jetconnect" callsign & operated as the airline designator code QNZ. Then it would be a jetconnect flight codesharing for Qantas (QF).

Not sure about what's written on the aircraft, as it has been several years since I have traveled on a Jetconnect aircraft, however I've never heard the Jetconnect callsign being used. It's always "Qantas XX"

[aerostatic]

When punters fly on a 717 from Cairns, Darwin, Perth etc, they get a red tail and cabin crew dressed like QF. On the boarding pass is a note "operated by National Jet" and I believe the aircraft have some sign writing adjacent to 1L which can be seen on boarding.

Do Jetconnect do these things?

Yes it does.

[newsensation]

Qantas does not own/control NationalJet/Cobham......but it does Jetconnect

[Mstr Caution]

NZScion,

That's my point!

If it's considered by QF to be a different entity. It should be using (in my opinion) the QNZ designator & a Jetconnect callsign, which it doesn't.

[Compylot]

It's inevitable that aviation will just be another ordinary job some day.
It's called progress & right or wrong we have to have it but at times one wonders whether it ought to be called 'regress'!

50 years since Yuri was thrust into space, the world took notice back then because it was simply amazing.................now?........just like aviation space travel is common place.

With aviation it had to grow. At first it was dangerous, exciting,glamorous & well respected with heroes almost daily. The public where in awe at pilots, their skills etc giving them almost God like status & the rewards to match it...........now many years latter it too is common place where nobody gives it another thought to travel by air & it's big business............& so an era is coming to an end as we used to know it, such inquiry's/gatherings/meetings as we have been discussing here for ages is just a few final fleeting attempts to keep the mystic alive by the true believers................simply put nobody (or few as in the gen public/pollies) cares anymore, sad really...:sad:
Enjoy it whilst you can for the legacy we leave behind for our grandchildren will only be found in the history books.


Well said that :ok:

Although aviation isn't going to be another ordinary job some day, it already is. :(

[4dogs]

Sunfish at #977:

Nah. Xenophon will lose his Chairmans lounge privileges.

Senator Xenophon was the first (and possibly still the only) Federal politician to categorically refuse to accept the proferred membership of the Chairman's Lounge. He does not accept upgrades and travels on the cheapest fares, usually at the back of economy.

Sunfish, both your accuracy and intimation in regard to a Senator who has worked tirelessly to make this Inquiry meaningful are neither gracious nor grateful. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Stay Alive,

[4dogs]

Breakfastburrito at #993:

Future prospective cadets will need to be cunning to find out the information. BB stated quite clearly at the inquiry that the cadets would be earning AUD $67K - this is correct until they have the required 500 hours, then they will be shipped off to NZ. BB stated is NZ is where they want them to be. Then, the NZ $42K contract comes into play. So technically he is correct, over a short time scale.

Well no, he deliberately misled the Senate Inquiry and the quoted $67K was in NZD! How did he mislead them - well, they asked about the NZ so-called cadet contract rate which clearly stated NZD$42,000 for a guaranteed 150 hours per quarter and he told them a different figure based on 850-950 hours per year without clarifying the difference. They could never have made that rate of effort because they had been stood down, coincidentally (?) at 150 hours for the first quarter. They were paid ONLY the guaranteed rate of NZD$10,500 plus allowances (another story!!) for that quarter.

Only after the discomfort of the Senate Inquiry was there a scramble to draft the "always intended" Australian contract, separate from the Jetstar EBA.

Further, a real AUD contract can be plonked down in front of the future cadet, without telling him that this will be for the first 500 hours only.

Believe me, there is nothing about the profferred contract that I would describe as "real" - its term and conditions, while significantly better financially, reflect the integrity of the management that was so exposed in the preceding weeks. It truly shows BB's adherence to the debt bondage principles that gave birth to the so-called cadet scheme in the first place.

I understand that the management has stated that no future pilot employee will be employed under the EBA...

Hopefully, these folks will continue to attract the adverse publicity they deserve.

Stay Alive

[Prince Niccolo M]

We used to have cadet schemes that provided alternate pathways to a flying career for those who needed financial assistance or had some special connection with the employer - they were sponsored schemes.

We did not need them because we were short of pilots.

In Europe, however, they extended their cadet (sponsorship) schemes beyond special needs/interest groups because they had no GA industry worth talking about. But they worked out that sponsoring their future employees was not going to work in a low cost carrier environment (regardless of whether they in fact were LCCs or FSCs) and began to explore reducing training costs. So they invented pay for training (P4T) and pay to fly (P2T) schemes to support a dramatic expansion of carriers and capacity.

So then we buggered up the concept here and started down the same P4T and P2F paths - EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SHORT OF SUITABLE PILOTS!

So, what do we do?

I reckon that we declare the 1st of May as the cutoff for any tolerance of so-called cadets paying their way into jobs that would otherwise go to experienced DE pilots. The guys who have been sucked in up till now should be protected, because even they had no chance of seeing how all this has unfolded. But that's the end of the excuses and it should be the end of our tolerance.

Unions, associations, councils, pilot groups whatever you call yourselves, get some cohones and let your management know that a line has been drawn in the sand!

[The Kelpie]

The guys who have been sucked in up till now should be protected, because even they had no chance of seeing how all this has unfolded.

Disagree. They did know what could happen they just chose to ignore the risk, a classic symptom of Shiny white jets syndrome.

More to Follow

The Kelpie

[waren9]

Exactly.

I've run out of sympathy for these SJS sufferers. They're old enough to vote, drink alcohol and become fathers/mothers i.e. fully fledged adult members of society in every other respect.

If they havent got the smarts to read a "contract full of opportunities" that involves long term commitment and poverty and get advice on it before scrambling over themselves to grab that pineapple with both hands then I'm afraid they can suck up the consequences.

Only trouble is, it's not doing the rest of us any good either.

[newsensation]

Qantas says the Boeing 737 with the flight number QF50 that made an emergency landing at Sydney Airport on Wednesday was not really a Qantas flight at all.

The Townsville refuler said the aircraft in question landed just in time as it was about to run out of accessible fuel, plenty in the centre tank but unable to use it, the problem was evident after take of from NZ but the crew continued on.... is there any truth to that???

[breakfastburrito]

newsensation, if you have this kind of information perhaps you pass it on a REPCON (http://www.atsb.gov.au/voluntary/repcon-aviation.aspx).

What is REPCON?
REPCON is a voluntary confidential reporting scheme. REPCON allows any person who has an aviation safety concern to report it to the ATSB confidentially. Protection of the reporter's identity and any individual referred to in the report is a primary element of the scheme.

[peuce]

I have just done a booking search, on two different booking sites, and both show QF50 operated by Qantas Airways ... as the flight from Auckland to Sydney.

I checked some other QF destinations on the same booking engines, that I know are code shared, and they show the ... operated by so and so Airlines in the details.

If it looks like ....
If it smells like ....
If it's advertised as ...